Battlefield SW

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Wesker
Eight armed forces, lead by one general and leader.

- Naga Sadow and his Massassi warriors

- Yoda and the Wookiees

- Obi-Wan and the Clone Troopers

- Grievous and the Battledroids (For feasibility purposes, 80% are regular battle droids, 15% are super battle droids, and 5% are droidekas)

- Ulic leading Krath forces

- Revan leading Mandalorian forces

- Sidious leading Storm Troopers

- Mace Windu leading Niman-trained jedi knights (Not masters or padawans)

For the purpose of assigning battles, we'll take vote. Three votes seals the candidate for the first match; next one to get three votes opposes the former team. We'll do this until it's elimination, then the survivors of the first wave will be paired against one another.

For example, say Sadow and Yoda go head to head. Sadow beats Yoda's army, and the rest of the matches are played out. Sadow goes into the next round and it's a vote to see who he fights with his forces. Pleae note that it's a carry-over effect; if Sadow -barely- beat Yoda, he'll likely get owned by the next army group. There is no replenishing of forces.

Now, the first team voted into a match goes defensive. Second team that opposes them is offensive. For simplicity's sake, the defensive team gets a to defend a fortress of sorts. We can vote on a list below IF the idea appeals to people. If it seems too complex, it will default to the Jedi Temple on Coruscant.

tdtd
Wow, this is the most complex vs. thread I've ever read...

Illustrious
Ok then. My first vote would be for Revan and the Mandalorians.

IKC
Sadow and the Massassi.

Darth Avis
If Naga gets some good starfighters then Naga. if not then Revan

tdtd
I'd have to go with Sidious and the clone troopers to make this an actual war..

Illustrious
The vote is for the candidacy.

tdtd
Read the instructions Avis

Wesker
Alright, as of now it's:

Revan, Sadow, and Sidious, all tied with one vote. Let's keep it coming, people.

Darth Subjekt
are the troops led by Sidious the OT troopers or a specific group like th 501st? I know you said that OB1 has the clones, Im just trying to verify.

Revolver Ocelot
Is this a pure ground fight?

Does the Emperor get his uber space Navy?

The Wookies on a ground fight, the Imperials in the sky.

Darth Avis
woops. Naga then. But if he is a candidate will he get X wings?

Wesker
Alright, let me make this clear (Since I forgot to add it)

ALL ground troops. We're using rather generic troops, too. I'm not going to have the 501st, or any prestigious combat units mixed in the army groups. We assume for the battle that there are two thousand of the specific unit types per general. (Such as two thousand wookiees, two thousand droids, two thousand clone troopers, etc.)

This is going to be a battle of infantry, artillery, and tanks/calvary. Now, some groups may not have artillery (jedi for example, only have melee infantry), while others have alternatives (Massassi have large beasts for tanks/calvary.) NO navy included. No snub fighters, no ISDs, etc. No Sadow's uber blow'er up ship either.

Darth Avis
Does Naga Get uber pick up something HUGE and drop on other army?

Wesker
Anyone making that claim would have to really back it up. But we're not arguing battle tactics right now. We need to decide on the first match.

Wesker
Counts are two for Sadow, one for Sidious and one for Revan.

Darth Subjekt
Sidious and Storm troopers against Mace and crew, if youre looking for a two army war, rather than a free for all.

Wesker
I'll take that as one vote for Sidious. Keep in mind we're voting on the first line up. How it works is the FIRST general to get three votes becomes the defensive team for the match. The second general to get three votes becomes the attacking party. Then we start the match.

After the match has been concluded (somewhat) we start voting for match two. Either that or we could open up another thread for the second match, I dunno. Trying to do more than one match in one thread would get confusing.

Sadow - 2
Sidious - 2
Revan - 1

Deception
Sadow - 3
Sidious - 2
Revan - 1

I vote for Sadow and his army.

Wesker
Ah, then Sadow plays defensive.

Revolver Ocelot
Yoda/Wookies, then. 2000 Wookies is just crazy

Wesker
Sadow (defensive)

Sidious - 2
Revan - 1
Yoda - 1

Blaxican_Hydra
I vote for Naga Sadow to actually, It would be intresting to see Massasi infantry square off aggainst Wookie infantry.

Wesker
Sadow's already got three votes, dude. He's in. Who's he going up against? Vote for them.

tdtd
Can I vote twice? One vote for me one vote for my package

Blaxican_Hydra
wait what era Sideous is this? I know this more of a lackey vs. lackey battle, but the era of Sideous still matters to me.

W/e I vote for Sids and storm troopers.

Wesker
One vote per person per match, folks. And it's DE Sidious.

Sidious and his storm troopers are the attacking party versus Sadow and his Massassi as the defenders. What should be the battleground?

Blaxican_Hydra
Endor.

And for this match I vote for Sids again, once again I know its more of a lackey vs. lackey but Sids force storm has got to count for something lol...well so does Sadows force attacks to but...Sids.

Wesker
Endor? I don't think there's a fortification Sadow can use on that planet, last I checked.

Blaxican_Hydra
The bunker.

Wesker
For two thousand Massassi?

Darth Avis
coruscant and the jedi temple. Massasi WTFpwn the troops and Naga pwns sids.

Wesker
Feel free to offer reasons. And I'm going to say, Jedi temple a Coruscant just because it's an easy place for everyone to imagine.

Blaxican_Hydra
Yeah I was gonan say...I dont think 2000 will fit in a bunker so yes do the JEdi Temple, and I think the Sids will kick Massasi's ass. JEdi Temple is narrow, meaning the MAssasi will have to stay close togther. They will get mass owned by Sids lightning.

Darth Avis
This is NAGA SADOW who is, most likely able to conjour enough lightning to destroy the temple but still. One Massasi is a lot stronger then a storm trooper so yea.

Blaxican_Hydra
YEah but it only takes one bullet to the ehad to kill one. And these are supposed to be the best shooters in the galaxy...

Wesker
I don't neccessarily think that the Massassi are easy prey for Storm troopers, and if the Massassi hole up in smaller chambers and rooms they remove the number and distance advantage of the storm troopers. Likewise, Sadow can probably do at least some illusions admidst the chaos, which would take Sidious' concentration to attempt to identify and dispel.

Darth Avis
Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
YEah but it only takes one bullet to the ehad to kill one. And these are supposed to be the best shooters in the galaxy... And yet they got WTFpwned by teddy bears...

tdtd
If we disregard the force powers of Sadow and Sidious as an influence on the war, then in a long distance battle I'd say the storm troopers curbstomp the Masassi.. However the Massassi are superior to the storm troopers in hand to hand combat.

Janus, are these the elite troopers that are empowered by the dark side?

Wesker
No, they're just storm troopers. Dark troopers are a bit extreme in numberes of two thousand.

Darth Avis
the massasi can use the dark side though...

tdtd
This battle reminds me of the epic battle in The Last Samurai. The Japanese Army defeated the Samurai because they were able to keep the fighting at a distance, while the Samurai only used swords..

tdtd
And the massassi can't use the dark side, they can be empowered by it but they have no knowledge of it.

Wesker
They do draw on it, like the people of Haruun Kal, Mace's homeplanet, perhaps even moreso. And in any case, Sadow's forces are defending IN the jedi temple... why would it resemble the final battle of The Last Samurai?

Blaxican_Hydra
Hm...partly true IMO. If a storm trooepr gets caught in a narrow hallway alone by a massasi than yeah I think hes f*cked. But if the troopers move togther they can gun down the Massasi who are forced to walk around in clumps due to the close quarters. This is also a double edged sword because storm troopers have less room to maneuver if the Massasi get close... ok basicly I think the Massasi will do well in the corridors and in the main hall Storm troopers will do well.

Revolver Ocelot
I'm curious: On average, who's physically stonger? An average Wookie or an Ancient Sith (race) "grunt".

Wesker
Probably the Sith, but it's possible that a Wookiee's comparable. They do **** with Barabels all the time.

Blaxican_Hydra
And Wesker, you said the forces were made up of Infantry and ground based Calvalry things right? So, are At-At's in here? That would be over kill IMO. But are they?

Darth Avis
Massasi will get some monster like a fire breather that the vong have or something then.

Blaxican_Hydra
IF its nto in a book or somethign it wont count though. Example Emprie COULD get some monster or something like Vong did. Sounds wierd neh?

Wesker
The storm troopers could use AT-STs. I suppose we should limit it to that. A group of AT-ATs would be a tremendous advantage.

Blaxican_Hydra
YEah like...WTFpwning all the other armies advantage...

Darth Avis
And the Massasi?

Blaxican_Hydra
Yeah a bunch of 7 foot tall warriors trying to take down a group of 80 feet walkers.. YEah thats why I think Sids would win. Superior tech, and not just superior enough to have a slight edge, but superior as in galaxy owning superior.

Darth Avis
no i mean what do the massasi get? And The ewok still owned the elite storm troopers who had Uber tech.

Revolver Ocelot
Yeah, but there were alot of Ewoks... and they had a ****load of traps for that battle.

Blaxican_Hydra
YEah they also had the help of a few humans and an At-St as well. And the Massasi get...MAssasi warriors.

IKC
And the Dark Side. And Naga Sadow. And tangible illusions that can increase their number tenfold.

The Massassi have it.

Darth Avis
and Tuk'ata
From Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki.

A giant Tuk'ata attacks Dark Acolyte Tol SkorrThe Force-sensitive Tuk'ata, or Sith hounds, were used for hundreds if not thousands of years to guard the tombs of the Dark Lords of the Sith on Korriban. Considering that many were sealed inside the tombs themselves, some believe that they were immortal or drew nourishment from the Force itself. It is also possible (and in some ways more likely) that they survived by feeding on small vermin or other creatures that infested the tombs as decay and time created new openings in the stone walls. They were fearless guardians and would kill anything that enters the tombs. While on Korriban, Exar Kun was forced to fight several hounds as a test. Thousands of years later, Tol Skorr, the Jedi servant of Count Dooku, would be injured by one and would face it years later when he and Quinlan Vos attempted to raid a Sith tomb.

The Tuk'ata were at least semi-sentient, and could speak the Sith language.

Retrieved from "http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tuk%27ata"

Blaxican_Hydra
Ok the Emprie has....


The Darkside. Sideous. And a force strom that can decimate those illusuions simultaneously.

Darth Avis
and Sith War Behemoths were beasts of war used by the Sith Empire. Originally herbivores from Khar Delba, the Sith discovered that they were extremely resilient creatures. They took some back to Korriban and Ziost for some alchemical "enhancements", including making them omnivores, and altering their cellular make-up to be more resistant to assault. The Sith also placed towers on their backs, so that warriors could ride them in battle. What happened to the behemoths after the fall of the Sith Empire is unknown

IKC
Right, because a rift in space-time is going to be really effective against things that don't even exist.

Blaxican_Hydra
That sounds reasonable. I think that if Sids gets At-Ats than it would be fair for Sadow to get the behemoths.

Deception
Well im inclined to believe that Sadow will face off and kill Sidious while his Massasi and War Beasts take on the Stormtroopers and AT-ST

EDIT: The Massasi also have long ranged weaponry that they use, and considering they can kill Jedi, the chances are they will kill stormtroopers efficently

Faunus
I believe we're still voting, so is this Mace and two thousand Jedi Knights? One vote for Windu.

Jabba the Hutt
i vote for obi wan

Wesker
Originally posted by Faunus
I believe we're still voting, so is this Mace and two thousand Jedi Knights? One vote for Windu.

lol... Patience, dude. You can vote for him in round two. Let's give round one some time still. And keep in mind they're Niman practitioners.

tdtd
If Sadow is allowed to use his illusions then Sidious destroys everything with a Force Storm... Sidious' team has it.

Wesker
So Sidious can just whip up a Force storm in the middle of Coruscant during a battle with a superior Sith Lord meditating and observing the entire battlefield, eh?

tdtd
How is Sadow's meditation in creating illusions detrimental to Sidious' force storm? Of course I don't doubt Sadow knows the force storm either.

Blaxican_Hydra
Originally posted by tdtd
If Sadow is allowed to use his illusions then Sidious destroys everything with a Force Storm... Sidious' team has it.

Exactly.

Wesker
Originally posted by tdtd
How is Sadow's meditation in creating illusions detrimental to Sidious' force storm? Of course I don't doubt Sadow knows the force storm either.

There's that and the fact that Sadow can control his Massassi to a sickening degree. Hell, I imagine he could mind control a few of the storm troopers and have them shoot Sidious. I just don't see Sidious standing there and charging up a force storm and Sadow being unable or unwilling to counter it.

Blaxican_Hydra
And what if he were to just wait in an AT-St until the time is right, then own everyone with his lightning?

tdtd
Janus, Sidious could control the Massassi troops too. I'm not arguing about how superior Sadow is to DE Sidious but they're both powerful, and they're both generals. What's Sadow going to do, deal with Sidious WHILE trying to create illusions? I don't think his multi tasking skills are developed.

Faunus
Originally posted by Wesker
lol... Patience, dude. You can vote for him in round two. Let's give round one some time still. And keep in mind they're Niman practitioners.

Whoops, my mistake. Can I put in a vote for Yoda, then?

And Niman practioners or not, I'd say a Jedi Knight could bring down a Massassi.

Blaxican_Hydra
So whats the score so far? I voted for Sideous army so its..


Sideous-1

Massasi-1( This ones from Darth Avis)

The rest of you have said stuff but I don't know what the actual votes are...

Borbarad
Sadow + Massassi vs Sidious + Stormtroopers ?
In the Jedi Temple with Sadow defending it ?

Sadow can blow up planets with a handmovement, at the very least he can tear down the entire temple using his amulet (not even thinking about shooting that thing into an approaching army of stormtroopers).

Possibly he will not even need to use his Massassi to win this fight and if he has to do so - I fail to see how Stormtroopers are going to fight a 10 times superior number of Massassi (Sadow's illusions) sucessfully.

Sadow pwns Sidious hard and the real Sith will rule over the Galaxy again.

Blaxican_Hydra
*watches as Sadow gets blown to bits by 1 blast from Sid's lightning.*

So much for the amulet of doom and the real lord of the sith...

Revolver Ocelot
Sadow can blow up planets with a handmovement, at the very least he can tear down the entire temple using his amulet (not even thinking about shooting that thing into an approaching army of stormtroopers).

Sadow gets his ship, now? wtf?

And why would he collapse a temple with him and his Massasi inside it...?

Blaxican_Hydra
YEah I think if he loses all 2000 men than he shoudl automaticly lose, and that goes for any Team...

Traya
Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
*watches as Sadow gets blown to bits by 1 blast from Sid's lightning.*

So much for the amulet of doom and the real lord of the sith...

I highly doubt that Sadow is going to be unable to counter the Force Storm, especially considering that it is an Ancient Sith technique. Sidious is not going to be able to just whip one out and obliterate everything in site.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Sadow can blow up planets with a handmovement, at the very least he can tear down the entire temple using his amulet (not even thinking about shooting that thing into an approaching army of stormtroopers).

Sadow gets his ship, now? wtf?

And why would he collapse a temple with him and his Massasi inside it...?

Tearing down the temple roof on the enemies wouldbe useful, yes. And Sadow's ship? Well, the attack made by the ship seemed somewhat different to Sadow's attack, which consisted of firing lightning into a star.

Blaxican_Hydra
um...You dnt BLOW up your OWN fort...Sadows defending, which means hes defending the Temple and his troops.

Traya
And? He's not going to be adverse to wiping out pieces of it...

Revolver Ocelot
It did seem different, but I think the ship had more than one purpose. I mean, Aleema manged to explode some suns, correct? That really didn't seem like a force attack.

I think the ship, instead of making the attack itself, enhanced Sadow's own powers allowing him to do it. I have trouble seeing anyone in Star Wars "kamehameha" a planet in Star Wars...

Regardless, this battle goes to Sadow. He can take Sidious in a one on one fight and his Massassi are on the defense... Since this isn't the 501 unit, a few ambushes and Sadow cutting people to pieces should grant him the victory.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
It did seem different, but I think the ship had more than one purpose. I mean, Aleema manged to explode some suns, correct? That really didn't seem like a force attack.

Aleema ripped the core of a sun off causing a supernova. If you have a look at the beginning of DLotS (when Exar has a look at the Holocron) you just see Sadow closing his hands destabilizing two stars to destroy his persuers with the comments "Sith care nothing for the natural order of the universe" and "Naga Sadow considers the death of a star system a small price for his own survival". At the very least he created and manipulated solar flares with a handmovement.



The ability to do something like that is implied even before the Ancient Sith ("godlike", "titanic force powers", "golden age Sith" and so on) are showing up in the EU. Listen to Vader in ANH: "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." There you have it - that idea exists for almost 30 years now.

tdtd
This is all very true but you can't sit there and say that there is a defense for a force storm. I don't argue that Sadow could create one of his own but defend against it? It all depends on who can use their uber force powers first.

Darth Avis
The storm is an ancient sith technique. if you couldnt defend against it then Kressh would have used it to destroy Naga in the decoy base instead of a space battle. Kressh knew Naga could defend against it.

Wesker
Hey, if Yoda can defend against Sith Lightning from Sidious, I'm sure Sadow can defend against it. Yoda was a jedi in a time when Sith didn't hardly exist; Sadow was DLotS during the height of the Sith Empire.

Sadow's knowledge of the dark side >>>>>>>>>>> Yoda's knowledge of the dark side.

Darth Avis
it is still 1 to 1 i think. any more votes?

Wesker
Eh, we don't vote on the outcome of the match itself... That opens the path to fanboyism and ignorant guesses and hunches. I want debates.

tdtd
I think Sadow would have no difficulty in defending against force lightning, he'd probably laugh it off and curbstomp the person throwing it at him.

Darth Avis
so... who decides who wins because i am pretty damb sure it will be naga with few casualties on his side thanks to illusions.

Wesker
What I'd like to see first before we move on is careful consideration of the following:

The environment and who's attacking, who's defending.

The tactics and weapons of both sides. The quality of the two thousand troops on each side.

THEN take into consideration the tactical prowess of the general.

LAST, consider his own talents, but don't pin the entire battle on them.

tdtd
Hmmm interesting... The best place would be out in the open, lets say the deserts of Tatooine..

Darth Avis
The temple is a good structure and the massasi can use there masters force powers to guide them through it because it is a huge maze and naga can be there map since he can probably use the force to find paths through it.

The troops have the aim of a blind deaf and dumb man with a gun. the massasi can beat the crap out of them and have the dark side.

Naga > sidious and is one with the massasi since he is there god.

nuff said

Escape81
I would just like to interject here and humbly request that those not perceive me as a Sidious fanboy, considering how I have avoided the overabundance of threads mentioning his name. But, I would like to know where the conception that the Force Storm is an ancient Sith technique came from. Because, in Dark Empire, Sidious wrote that he came up with the ability himself, in the Dark Side Compendium book that he wrote called: The Book of Anger.

Now, aside from the KOTOR variation (which was considerably weaker than Sidious's own), do we have any evidence that logically indicates that it was an Ancient Sith technique? Did another Sith Lord use it? Or are we all agreeing that it is an Ancient Sith technique because it is heresy to assume that Sidious had such a powerful maneuver that wasn't replicated in the Golden Age?

I honestly don't know, and I didn't mean for this to sound... well, rude, but I'd just like to know. Thanks.

Escape81
Oh, and just so there is clarification, I do think that Sadow will win this one, simply because he is all-around a superior Sith to DE Sidious, and his forces are empowered by the Dark Side - which in my opinion gives them an intense advantage over Sidious's stormtroopers.

tdtd
I believe Darth Bane used force storms too, and nowhere in DE did it say that Sidious created the technique..

Wesker
I recall going over the issue with Lightsnake, but the details are sketchy now. I did point out Sadow uses a variant of force lightning to activate the star in FotSE. Also, it's called Sith Lightning in the databank among other places, and Force Storm is just a larger variant of that. Sidious may have "rediscovered it" possibly, but I highly doubt he figured it out and none of the ancient Sith ever did despite them sitting around for centuries using the dark side on each other.

tdtd
But it's very logical to assume that it came from the ancient sith

Escape81
Originally posted by tdtd
I believe Darth Bane used force storms too, and nowhere in DE did it say that Sidious created the technique..

I believe it was in Dark Empire IV and the source book that said that he recorded the origin of the Force Storm, saying that he was able to immerse himself so deeply in the Dark Side that through a sheer act of will, he was able to generate storms of pure Dark Side energy. He mentions that he does this in the Book of Anger, which is 1/3 of his Dark Side Compendium. So according to that, he was the only one to use it. Whether there has been a piece of EU literature that indicates he was not the first, I do not know.

Also - to my knowledge, Bane never used a Force Storm. From some of the research that I've done, as well as the biographies on Wookipedia (horrible references for this versus forum, I know, but they are among the most detailed descriptions of the characters) - Bane never used a Force Storm. I could be wrong however.

Wesker
Originally posted by Escape81
I believe it was in Dark Empire IV and the source book that said that he recorded the origin of the Force Storm, saying that he was able to immerse himself so deeply in the Dark Side that through a sheer act of will, he was able to generate storms of pure Dark Side energy. He mentions that he does this in the Book of Anger, which is 1/3 of his Dark Side Compendium. So according to that, he was the only one to use it. Whether there has been a piece of EU literature that indicates he was not the first, I do not know.

Also - to my knowledge, Bane never used a Force Storm. From some of the research that I've done, as well as the biographies on Wookipedia (horrible references for this versus forum, I know, but they are among the most detailed descriptions of the characters) - Bane never used a Force Storm. I could be wrong however.

The problem with this is that sourcebooks aren't canon. Also, DE was made before TOTJ series comic books, so the Ancient Sith effectively predate everything Sidious has done, whether he's aware of that or not. And I recall someone in Jedi versus Sith using Force storm, but I was so disgusted with the artwork I never read the whole thing.

tdtd
What he said

Darth Avis
lol
soooooo... Naga wins?

Wesker
From my own stance I'm seeing Sadow ruining Sidious' forces, with the confines of the Jedi temple being in the favor of the massassi. However, there is a chance for Sidious to win, depending on how complete his battle meditation is, how effective his force storm is, and the AT-STs can make one hell of a mess. I'll leave this match open for a few hours, but in the meantime we can start taking votes on Round two. Please refer to the first page for remaining generals.

Darth Avis
yoda and friends..

Escape81
Originally posted by Wesker
The problem with this is that sourcebooks aren't canon. Also, DE was made before TOTJ series comic books, so the Ancient Sith effectively predate everything Sidious has done, whether he's aware of that or not. And I recall someone in Jedi versus Sith using Force storm, but I was so disgusted with the artwork I never read the whole thing.

Wait, wait, wait.

So, what you're telling me is that you have no proof (on hand, or on memory) of an Ancient Sith using a Force Storm, but it must be an Ancient Sith technique simply because they were Ancient Sith? Wtf? Janus, that's not really... logical. Absence of proof is not proof of absence, but it isn't an excuse to assume that the Ancient Sith know a technique that they were never displayed using.

Well, in my personal opinion, that sounds like crappy logic. I could understand if they were actually shown using the actual technique that the Sith know all of Sidious's maneuvers. But until such a time when you can hand deliver proof to me about this, I'll be skeptical in regards to the Ancient Sith knowing all just because they're ancient. However, if you have proof in the form of a comic or something showing Naga Sadow popping off a Force Storm, or Marka Ragnos - then my points are moot. But until then, I'm not so sure.

Just wanted to clear that up. But, again. Naga takes this. He's more powerful, and so are his forces.

tdtd
We're not discussing the victor here just yet, and you're not showing any evidence why Sadow would take it.

Escape81
Originally posted by Wesker
From my own stance I'm seeing Sadow ruining Sidious' forces, with the confines of the Jedi temple being in the favor of the massassi. However, there is a chance for Sidious to win, depending on how complete his battle meditation is, how effective his force storm is, and the AT-STs can make one hell of a mess. I'll leave this match open for a few hours, but in the meantime we can start taking votes on Round two. Please refer to the first page for remaining generals.

I see no way Sidious can win. He's squaring off against a Sith Lord who is more powerful than he, and is - according to you - capable of the same feats that Sidious is, and then some. Now, considering how Sadow supposedly possesses the ability to conjure a Force Storm - I don't see how he can't possess Battle Meditation as well. His forces are also empowered by the Dark Side, whereas Sidious's are just plain ol' human in mediocre armor. Sidious is basically outclassed and so are his forces. I don't see how he could pull a victory off.

Escape81
Originally posted by tdtd
We're not discussing the victor here just yet, and you're not showing any evidence why Sadow would take it.

Well, consider. Naga Sadow is more powerful than DE Sidious, right? According to you, he possesses the same Dark Side feats that Sidious is capable of - and then some that he isn't. In my opinion, if he's capable of conjuring Force Storms, then it is also likely that he possesses Battle Meditation on some level.

So in the case of Sadow v. Sidious - Sidious is WTFpwned.

Now, Sadow's forces are empowered by the Dark Side, whereas Sidious's are not. The Massassi seem to be skilled warriors and such, whereas the Stormtroopers are not an overwhelming force. They are also equal in number, with Sadow only tasked to defend instead of expending his superior energies on an offensive maneuver. So, in effect, we have a greater force merely defending against a substantially weaker force.

Sidious < Sadow
Stormtroopers < Massassi

tdtd
First of all they are generals of their armies. If we're going by straight leadership I'd give the fight to Revan, who was superior to both of them in terms of being a general. Sadow does possess battle meditation as we see him speaking to his warriors while in his meditation sphere. His forces are empowered by the darkside, so what? Sidious and his troops have the superior weapons, and would destroy the Massassi from a distance.

Darth Avis
if they could aim... The massasi also get some strong beasts (refer to the end of page 3 and the begining of page 4 and wookiepeia)

Wesker
Originally posted by Escape81
Wait, wait, wait.

So, what you're telling me is that you have no proof (on hand, or on memory) of an Ancient Sith using a Force Storm, but it must be an Ancient Sith technique simply because they were Ancient Sith? Wtf? Janus, that's not really... logical. Absence of proof is not proof of absence, but it isn't an excuse to assume that the Ancient Sith know a technique that they were never displayed using.

Well, in my personal opinion, that sounds like crappy logic. I could understand if they were actually shown using the actual technique that the Sith know all of Sidious's maneuvers. But until such a time when you can hand deliver proof to me about this, I'll be skeptical in regards to the Ancient Sith knowing all just because they're ancient. However, if you have proof in the form of a comic or something showing Naga Sadow popping off a Force Storm, or Marka Ragnos - then my points are moot. But until then, I'm not so sure.

Just wanted to clear that up. But, again. Naga takes this. He's more powerful, and so are his forces.

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_10_25.jpg

There's Sadow using the "Powers of the Sith". And Gav, who has spent only a short time in their company, recognizes it. It stands to reason that Sith lightning on such a titanic scale DOES exist among the ancient sith, especially since their powers are the foundation for all the other Sith Lords in time, INCLUDING Darth Sidious.

Escape81
I never denied that their work was the foundation for Palpatine. But, Janus, 'the powers of the sith' is not a Force Storm. It activated a star. The Force Storm doesn't activate anything. On it's own, it is an incredibly deadly maneuver - ranking among the most damaging Force attacks we've seen.

I can see however how that could be the basis for Sidious developing the Force Storm. That would make perfect sense. Kind've like improving upon what they never managed to. But from that example alone, it does not indicate that Naga Sadow knew "the Force Storm". Perhaps a variation of it, but not the same thing.

Also, Tdtd, Sidious and his men are WTFpwned here. They'd need a Star Destroyer or something.

Wesker
I think you're misreading the idea of it's power; does this form of lightning activate the star because that's what it does, or does it cause the star to go nova because of its power? If you fired Sidious' Force storm into a sun, it'd go nova too. It has everything to do with the nature of a star and little to do with the nature of the lightning used, other than its level of power.

tdtd
I agree with Janus and no, you can't say Sidious and his men are wtf Pwned... We haven't even discussed the details of the battles yet.

Revolver Ocelot
The problem with this is that sourcebooks aren't canon. Also, DE was made before TOTJ series comic books, so the Ancient Sith effectively predate everything Sidious has done, whether he's aware of that or not. And I recall someone in Jedi versus Sith using Force storm, but I was so disgusted with the artwork I never read the whole thing.

What the flying hell? The artwork in Jedi vs Sith is 1000x better than the "art"work in TOTJ.

Wesker
Dude, Bane looks like a monkey. Case closed.

Darth Avis
lol

Xepeyon
lol

Blaxican_Hydra
Originally posted by Darth Avis
if they could aim... The massasi also get some strong beasts (refer to the end of page 3 and the begining of page 4 and wookiepeia)

I'm tried of everyone dissing the storm troopers on the basis that they have no aim . This opinion is formed only because in the movies because the good guys are always getting shot at and no one ever gets hit. This is BS IMO because it's a frigan movie, think logically people the Storm troopers didn't become the most feared soldiers in the galaxy for nothing. We all know for real that in almost every incident in those movies were it's storm troopers vs. the heroes that the heroes should be getting their asses kicked. How does a farm boy, a senile old man, a scruffy smuggler, and a spoiled princess manage to not only escape from a maximum security battle station. But they even manage to gun down several members of the most "elite fighting force" in the galaxy. Every bad guy in every book and movie has to have bad aim or else their would be no movie as the hero would get cooked in the opening scene. The storm troopers probably have excellent aim and probably have topnotch weapons and armor as well.

Well my little rant is over, not to my opinion on the who would win...

Since the setting is in the Jedi Temple that means that everyone will be fighting inside yes? That means that the conditions will be close quarters mostly and low ceilings and such. This forces both sides to have to travel in clumps, this making it easier for Sids team because if the enemy is traveling in clumped than the Storm troopers don't have to aim as well anyways. If ten storm troopers are walking down a hallway, slightly huddled together, and they come upon ten massasi warriors who are huddled down the hallway 30 feet away, all the storm troopers have to do ids fire into that concentrated mass of men, and because the hallways are close they wont have as much space to dodge the bullets. By the time the Massasi reach the storm troopers they will probably have lost at least like six guys, in which the remaining four perhaps will take out two or three troopers before going down as well.

And everyone is under the speculation that Sids will actually be among his soldiers in the battle, waiting for Sadow to take him out. We all know Sids is a coward, and he will probably be hiding in an AT-ST several miels away from the battle, using battle meditation and commanding his troops via comlink and cooking up a force storm, safely out of reach of any harm from the Massasi or Naga himself.

Once the enemy forces have been weakened enough and Sids has a good storm cooked up he'll mosey on down to the Temple, give off a few bursts of his storm, killing a bunch, than he'll leave and make his way back to the safety point. Repeat the process and the battle will be over in probably a couple of days.

tdtd
Youre forgetting Revan and the Mandalorians.

Blaxican_Hydra
Originally posted by tdtd
Youre forgetting Revan and the Mandalorians.

Oh I'll find make a ant on that later...I have starcraft to play...

Darth Avis
Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
I'm tried of everyone dissing the storm troopers on the basis that they have no aim . This opinion is formed only because in the movies because the good guys are always getting shot at and no one ever gets hit. This is BS IMO because it's a frigan movie, think logically people the Storm troopers didn't become the most feared soldiers in the galaxy for nothing. We all know for real that in almost every incident in those movies were it's storm troopers vs. the heroes that the heroes should be getting their asses kicked. How does a farm boy, a senile old man, a scruffy smuggler, and a spoiled princess manage to not only escape from a maximum security battle station. But they even manage to gun down several members of the most "elite fighting force" in the galaxy. Every bad guy in every book and movie has to have bad aim or else their would be no movie as the hero would get cooked in the opening scene. The storm troopers probably have excellent aim and probably have topnotch weapons and armor as well.

Well my little rant is over, not to my opinion on the who would win...

Since the setting is in the Jedi Temple that means that everyone will be fighting inside yes? That means that the conditions will be close quarters mostly and low ceilings and such. This forces both sides to have to travel in clumps, this making it easier for Sids team because if the enemy is traveling in clumped than the Storm troopers don't have to aim as well anyways. If ten storm troopers are walking down a hallway, slightly huddled together, and they come upon ten massasi warriors who are huddled down the hallway 30 feet away, all the storm troopers have to do ids fire into that concentrated mass of men, and because the hallways are close they wont have as much space to dodge the bullets. By the time the Massasi reach the storm troopers they will probably have lost at least like six guys, in which the remaining four perhaps will take out two or three troopers before going down as well.

And everyone is under the speculation that Sids will actually be among his soldiers in the battle, waiting for Sadow to take him out. We all know Sids is a coward, and he will probably be hiding in an AT-ST several miels away from the battle, using battle meditation and commanding his troops via comlink and cooking up a force storm, safely out of reach of any harm from the Massasi or Naga himself.

Once the enemy forces have been weakened enough and Sids has a good storm cooked up he'll mosey on down to the Temple, give off a few bursts of his storm, killing a bunch, than he'll leave and make his way back to the safety point. Repeat the process and the battle will be over in probably a couple of days.


1 You cant leave the temple
2 Sadow will kill sids because he is stronger and, if his power can travel a few miles and make a star deonate, it can travel a few miles and kill sids.
3The massasi are infused with the dark side. they will sense the troops and ambush them.

tdtd
They are infused with the dark side, so what? They have no idea how to use it, nor control it

Blaxican_Hydra
1. Did Wesker say that?

2. Detonating a star and killing everyone, including all his troops, yeah right.

3. The Stromtroopers have infrared and motion sensors as well, they will see the Massasi coming and they to can form an ambush.

Wesker
First off, I agree on the perception that Storm Troopers get a particularly poor rap. Wong at Stardestroyer.net's offered possible motives for their lack of performance, such as them not really being out to kill the heroes of the story because they lead the empire to the rebellion, and because those weren't frontline troops; they were reserves.

However, I disgree with your assessment on the ease at which the Storm troopers will win. I don't think the Imps have ever faced two thousand force sensitive warriors in a small temple without sufficient artillery and heavy tank support. I mean, even the Clone Troopers who attacked the jedi temple used BIG weapons to level parts of the temple in their siege, but they at least had a good gauge of their enemies' abilities. And they didn't have to confront a Sith Lord who plays with stars for fun.

Let's face it- they're primarily deployed for keeping the peace or suppressing uprisings. The real strength of the Empire lies in its vast navy. Even the attacking forces on an ISD died in droves to a defensive enemy (Beginning of ANH). Even if they have AT-STs and mortars, there's nothing to suggest they can storm this palace and put down every massassi within.

And I'd LOVE to see Sidious cook up a Force storm while in a little tiny AT-ST. That would be hilarious.

Blaxican_Hydra
hahahahaa well...that depends, Im guessing that when he cooks one up he starts to like...brim with energy? I thought at first that it was like a meditationel thing like:

"Im a good person, I'ma good person, I can do this I can do this,,,I feel the energy coming I feel it I-(Unleashes the energy) F*CK YO COUCH ******!!!" And kills everyone. I guess that's wrong?

tdtd
1. how does being empowered by the massassi possibly help them?
2. does it really matter if Sidious is in a cramped area or in an open area, for him to create a force storm?

IKC
That holocron is a dubious source at best, considering it was both compiled by Vodo and also portrayed Sadow as having human-colored skin.

Aleema clenched her fist when using the ship in this manner as well. Were there no dialogue or narration, we'd assume that she did it on her own power as well.

It's not a stretch to assume that the ship's weapon can be used in more than one way. Dialogue and narration indicate that the ship allows a Force-based attack, and The Force certainly doesn't seem to have limitations in number of different uses.

thetruepower
I don't get what all this fandom of the Massasi came from. They were weaker then jedi (Sylvar, a jedi knight in THE SITH WAR was able to kill three of them in seconds with her claws and these were the stronger Massasi that Kun controls). Sadow's Massasi would also be at a huge disadvantage with the location. And they were clearly not used to dealing with blasters as at the time as melee weapons were generally used in war and Sadow and his troops were easily able to deal with some Massasi guards using blasters that they found on the Daragons' ship. I think that the clone troopers would be superior to the Massasi in this instance as they would have the tight confined spaces of the temple to their advantage and they would be able to use the fact that they have range to their advantage as well.

tdtd
The Massassi are strong warriors and specialize in hand to hand combat, but they would get curbstomped by superior weaponry.

Wesker
Numan, don't post in my thread, I'm serious. GTFO.

Escape81
Originally posted by Wesker
First off, I agree on the perception that Storm Troopers get a particularly poor rap. Wong at Stardestroyer.net's offered possible motives for their lack of performance, such as them not really being out to kill the heroes of the story because they lead the empire to the rebellion, and because those weren't frontline troops; they were reserves.

However, I disgree with your assessment on the ease at which the Storm troopers will win. I don't think the Imps have ever faced two thousand force sensitive warriors in a small temple without sufficient artillery and heavy tank support. I mean, even the Clone Troopers who attacked the jedi temple used BIG weapons to level parts of the temple in their siege, but they at least had a good gauge of their enemies' abilities. And they didn't have to confront a Sith Lord who plays with stars for fun.

Let's face it- they're primarily deployed for keeping the peace or suppressing uprisings. The real strength of the Empire lies in its vast navy. Even the attacking forces on an ISD died in droves to a defensive enemy (Beginning of ANH). Even if they have AT-STs and mortars, there's nothing to suggest they can storm this palace and put down every massassi within.

And I'd LOVE to see Sidious cook up a Force storm while in a little tiny AT-ST. That would be hilarious.

Uh... armed with that knowledge, Janus, I have to ask how the hell you're going to give Sidious a good chance. So far, the odds are stacked against him. Sadow's more powerful and his troops are flat out better than Imperial Stormtroopers. Hell, Sidious doesn't even have his usual advantage - which is the typical numerical one.

Wesker
I'm trying to remain as open as possible regarding the outcome. If I just made a thread and demanded that people change my mind on the outcome or else, it would be pointless. If a lot of people can provide a good enough argument, or find holes in my arguments and others for Sadow, I'll entertain Sidious winning.

Escape81
Originally posted by Wesker
I'm trying to remain as open as possible regarding the outcome. If I just made a thread and demanded that people change my mind on the outcome or else, it would be pointless. If a lot of people can provide a good enough argument, or find holes in my arguments and others for Sadow, I'll entertain Sidious winning.

Entertain the thought? Look: Sidious has no chance. Look here, it's me: the so-called Sidious uber-fanboy. I'm telling you, he has no shot - which makes me wonder why in the hell you made it possible. If you actually give him a shot, I think I might have a heart-attack.

Naga Sadow is flat-out better than Sidious. He's stronger, smarter, more powerful - and his forces are as well. He can replicate the same Force feats that Sidious can, and then some of his own that Sidious can't. In a one-on-one confrontation, Sidious gets owned to a degree that I feel uncomfortable discussing.

Then, let's take a look at the ground-forces. Ah, what's this? Look who has the advantage again. Sadow. His men are empowered by the Dark Side - your own words. That means the Dark Side has augmented them. The stormtroopers may have superior technology, but that hasn't saved them in every battle they got in. I recall Ewoks owning them on Endor.

To top it all off, you have Sadow on the defensive. So all he has to do is wait until his considerably weaker opponent draws near, and then uses his Force-powers and his Massassi to wipe out the stormtroopers and slaughter Palpatine.

The only way Sadow's going down is if there's a space-fight. Then, he gets his ass kicked. But Sidious is owned here. He becomes a Dark Side grease spot on the grass...

Sadow ftw.

IKC
I wouldn't say flat-out that Sadow is smarter than Sidious. I'll give Sidious that.

Escape81
Originally posted by IKC
I wouldn't say flat-out that Sadow is smarter than Sidious. I'll give Sidious that.

Actually, I've come to the conclusion that Sidious wasn't as smart as I thought. Based on all the arguments that Janus, Sorgo, etc. gave me before - I went back and re-read. You know, Sidious lost his first elections on Naboo. He was stupid to kill Plageuis before he learned his master's secret. He also underestimated a lot of his opponents which earned him several staggering defeats. I dunno, my opinion changed a lot recently. I would argue if Sidious is even a considerable player in feat wars.

Blaxican_Hydra
Escape 81 give some reasons please. All you did in that last argument is say over and over again that Sadows forces are better, but you didn't actually give any proof . I gave tactics and even gave an example to back up my statement. You have not. I can say: Rotj Luke is better than Marka Ragnos over and over again until I'm blue in the face but mu opinion will be moot unless I give some actual reasoning.

Escape81
Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Escape 81 give some reasons please. All you did in that last argument is say over and over again that Sadows forces are better, but you didn't actually give any proof . I gave tactics and even gave an example to back up my statement. You have not. I can say: Rotj Luke is better than Marka Ragnos over and over again until I'm blue in the face but mu opinion will be moot unless I give some actual reasoning.

Sadow > Sidious. If you want proof, go back and look at Wesker's posts. Sidious's feats are nothing new to Sadow, who can replicate those and then some of his own.

Now, Stormtroopers possess superior technology, granted. But Massassi are empowered by the Dark Side. They are augmented by it. Palpatine's men are flesh-and-blood human without any other Force assistance other than Palpatine's Battle Meditation - which, wouldn't ya know - Sadow can do as well.

In melee combat, the Massassi slaughter the stormtroopers. And, now, the kicker!

Sadow is on the defensive. That means all he has to do is sit and wait. Palpatine is coming for him. So, that means that the Stormtroopers advantage of blasters won't be much good when they're in arm's reach of the Massassi.

Sadow > Sidious

Massassi > Stormtroopers

Escape81
Now, if this were a space battle - then I absolutely agree. Sadow would be owned. But, this isn't. Palpatine's intense advantage of the Imperial Starfleet will not be of use to him. Neither will the usual numerical advantage.

Read my words. Palpatine is going to be owned. Unless Wesker manipulates the situation to compensate for the insane weaknesses that Sidious has.

Sadow. For. The. Win.

Blaxican_Hydra
Thank you. Very plausible.




1. Like I said I honestly don't think Sids will even let himself get within ten feet of Sadow, so his getting owned by him seems unlikely.

2. Big whoopdy do the Massasi are empowered by the dark side. The clones took out every Jedi in the galaxy, and *gasp* they were empowereed by the force to!!! I don't think the force is going to help them that much when they get shot multipel times in the chest, especialy by an AT-ST. What are they going to do throw rocks at it? Once again the battle of endor was BS as much as the storm troopers and their bad aim. The Empire invaded and completely enslaved the entire wookie race, yet they lost to a small band of Ewoks? More movie bull crap.

3. Ok so Sadow is on the defensive, I will admit that it definatly is easier to defend than to attack, but Sids sends in his AT-St's first than it will take a logn long time for the Massasi's rocks to penatrate their armor, giving the little storm troopers time to enter the building and, in the confusion, get in formation and blast away. Have you ever seen Lotr Return of the King? Rememebr the part were the big city is getting sieged( Minas Tirith I think) and the Orcs suceeded in opening the main gate, remmeber when they send in the trolls first to aborb all the fire, than the orcs pour in? Well it'll be the same case here.Sids will send in the AT-ST's first to absorb the fire and attention while the storm troopers file in and mow down the opposition. I play Starcraft alot so I know a little bit about tactics.

IKC
Honestly, you guys are arguing moot points. Sadow can merely sit back and conjure up his tangible, uber illusions and have them tear ass. It's damn possible he takes it without losing a single real troop.

tdtd
lol. Sadow is irrational. Sidious is superior to him in intelligence, and is a better strategian. Sadow is superior in force powers but Sidious' troopers have the superior weaponry.

Escape81
Hydra -

1. Sidious doesn't need to get within ten feet of Sadow. Sadow can use a Force Storm just like Sidious. Sidious will die, one way or another.

2. Again, Sadow can handle AT-ATs if his men can't. If Sidious can handle fleets, lol, then Sadow can handle mere AT-ATs. Again, in melee combat - Stormtroopers have no chance.

3. Watch LOtR again. The humans at Minis Tirith were horribly outnumbered, and they still held their own. Sidious's men are equal in numbers to Sadow. Sadow is more powerful. That point is moot. So, I'm glad you play Starcraft. It does not make you a master tactition.

IKC -

I'm not arguing moot points. I'm arguing valid ones. And, we both share the same belief. Sadow owns Sidious.

Tdtd -

Palpatine's not a master military tactition. If he was, he wouldn't need to have the twelve Grand Admirals or Vader to lead his military forces. I'm sure he's not stupid when it comes to tactics, but Sadow was a warlord. If Palpatine is a strategist at anything, it'd be political. Not warfare.

tdtd
1. I said Sadow most likely knows a force storm, but it's not definite. We also don't know how powerful his force storms could be. Explain how Sidious would die.
2. Logical fallacy.. Just because Sidious can handle fleets, all of a sudden Sadow can handle AT-ATs? I'm not saying he can't but you're not providing a logical argument.
3. Huh? I don't play starcraft..Sadow is more powerful and? Sidious is smarter, so what's your point?

Sadow was an incompetent warlord whose only soul power was illusions, in terms of war. Sidious is more rational.

Escape81
Originally posted by tdtd
1. I said Sadow most likely knows a force storm, but it's not definite. We also don't know how powerful his force storms could be. Explain how Sidious would die.
2. Logical fallacy.. Just because Sidious can handle fleets, all of a sudden Sadow can handle AT-ATs? I'm not saying he can't but you're not providing a logical argument.
3. Huh? I don't play starcraft..Sadow is more powerful and? Sidious is smarter, so what's your point?

Sadow was an incompetent warlord whose only soul power was illusions, in terms of war. Sidious is more rational.

Firstly, the above was written for Hydra. As shown when I typed "Hydra" above it. But, having said that:

1. Wait, you made it sound as if it were definate. You were confident enough that Sadow knew it that you argued with me about it earlier today. What the hell happened? This coupled with the fact that Janus has given proof that Sadow has performed a nigh similar feat makes me believe your original thought.

2. Well, then I suppose it was a logical fallacy that just because Sidious could do Force Storms, all of the Ancient Sith could. wink But, having proved that at least Sadow can, and that he has the power to make a Star go supernova, I'm positive that he can handle AT-ATs.

3. Again... it was for Hydra.

4. Sadow is grotesquely powerful, and has more experience in wars than Sidious. I'd probably put them on equal footing. But by some chance that Sidious is militaristically smarter, it won't be enough to save him because Sidious's intelligence on warfare isn't superior to Sadow by a landslide.

tdtd
1. It's not definite because we never see him actually conjure one up but based on his ability to destroy a star with some form of lightning it is logical to assume that he knows it.
2. What? Sidious could produce force storms, but it was derived from the ancient sith, who said all of the ancient sith could do it what are you talking about? I never said Sadow couldn't handle AT-ATs but your argument was illogical when you said because Sidious can take A, Sadow can definitely take B.
3. ok
4. Maybe not but Sadow is angry and irrational when he doesn't achieve the results he wants, while Sidious is calm and makes wiser decisions. Sadow might be leagues above Sidious but I'd leave it to him to do something stupid to ruin the battle. And we need to get Revan into this conversation

Escape81
Originally posted by tdtd
1. It's not definite because we never see him actually conjure one up but based on his ability to destroy a star with some form of lightning it is logical to assume that he knows it.
2. What? Sidious could produce force storms, but it was derived from the ancient sith, who said all of the ancient sith could do it what are you talking about? I never said Sadow couldn't handle AT-ATs but your argument was illogical when you said because Sidious can take A, Sadow can definitely take B.
3. ok
4. Maybe not but Sadow is angry and irrational when he doesn't achieve the results he wants, while Sidious is calm and makes wiser decisions. Sadow might be leagues above Sidious but I'd leave it to him to do something stupid to ruin the battle. And we need to get Revan into this conversation

1. Look at Janus's post. If that is not a Force Storm, it's something similar to it.

2. WTF??! Okay. You just said that it derived from the Ancient Sith. Well guess what Naga is! An ANCIENT SITH. But my point was that we had no proof that it derived from Ancient Sith until Janus showed me that comic clip. My argument was not illogical; because we've now shown that Sadow possesses a rudimentary Force Storm ability (which still has the power to make a star go supernova) which means he can wipe out AT-ATs!

4. Jesus! When Sidious gets angry, he tends to do stupid things like underestimate his opponents (even when they are stronger than he is: Mace and Yoda) - so that means that he has an exceptional chance of doing it again. And go watch ROTJ and ROTS if you think that Sidious is always calm. Trust me. He explodes.

tdtd
2. And my point is your first argument consisted of "If Sidious can take out A, Sadow can certainly take out B" which I pointed out to be a logical fallacy. You corrected it the second time around.
4. My point is Sidious is more intelligent and rational than Sadow, and he can use that to his advantage.

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