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Takes place in Death Star.

The Jedi. Kit is at least on par with RODV Darth Vader and could probably even beat him while Obi-Wan would only have a little trouble with Asajj and would definately win.

Originally posted by darthsith19
The Jedi. Kit is at least on par with RODV Darth Vader and could probably even beat him while Obi-Wan would only have a little trouble with Asajj and would definately win.

For once, I agree.

If Vader can beat Ben Kenobi, he can defeat the weaker Obi-Wan. The choreography argument is a valid one so why not use it when dealing with OT characters.

RotS is much stronger than Ben. Ben was hiding from the Empire; he had no reason to train whatsoever. If you can provide some proof of Ben's training between RotS and ANH then you'll have a point. Until then, your post is inconclusive.

What are you talking about? ANH Ben was a very powerful individual. What makes you think he had no reason to train? You forget he learned from Qui Gon on Tatooine.. I would put him about ROTS Obiwan any day..

The fact that there is going to be a postROTS book on him and other jedi in hiding. He's obviously going to be doing stuff in those books. And it is also clear at the end of ROTS that he would be trained by both the spirit of Qui-Gon Jinn and Yoda. And also, what do you think he was doing in hiding. He clearly would have spent much time meditating and what not. So far it is very logical to assume that he would become stronger. Have I directly quoted GL saying so? No but I think that it is pretty obvious that he grew stronger.

Qui-Gon most likely taught him about mental aspects and the Force, not physical fighting power. Ben was good, but RotS Kenobi was better. He had no reason for physical training because he would never use them.

You're acting as if he completely gave up. Do you really think he was just going to die peacefull while Sidious and Vader ruled the galaxy. He and Yoda clearly had plans for the future. In the time between ROTS and ANH, there are plenty of things that Kenobi might have done. It is defenite that he contacted other surviviors of the purge and he might have even tried to gather all the jedi to reform the old order into a new secret order. He might have even contacted people like Ventress and Vos. There are a hell of a lot of things that he could have and probably would have in between ROTS and ANH.

ANH Ben may have been old and not as good with a saber anymore but he was superior to ROTS Obiwan in the Force.

Originally posted by thetruepower
The fact that there is going to be a postROTS book on him and other jedi in hiding. He's obviously going to be doing stuff in those books. And it is also clear at the end of ROTS that he would be trained by both the spirit of Qui-Gon Jinn and Yoda. And also, what do you think he was doing in hiding. He clearly would have spent much time meditating and what not. So far it is very logical to assume that he would become stronger. Have I directly quoted GL saying so? No but I think that it is pretty obvious that he grew stronger.

During this time, Kenobi spent years communing with the Force. Through meditation, he made contact with the spirit of Qui-Gon Jinn. His former Master had discovered the secret of immortality, a way of preserving his identity in the netherworld of the Force. Obi-Wan studied from him, learning this ability.

That's from the databank, and I would have to say Kenobi wasn't doing much physical training, i.e. lightsaber combat. I'm sure he learned more of the Force, and the aspects of it and such, but his lightsaber and combat skills seem they would've diminished over the years.

Originally posted by tdtd
ANH Ben may have been old and not as good with a saber anymore but he was superior to ROTS Obiwan in the Force.

And, still ROTS Obi-Wan would best ANH Obi-Wan, he's probably been without using his saber, and keeping up with it for quite awhile. Also, it's not like ANH Ben was a supreme god of the Force anyways.

Exactly, Sintas. And you're last post is correct, tdtd.

But a Secret Jedi Order? There's no use. Vader would've definetly sensed the unusual amount of Force there and gone there to hunt them down. Ben hadn't gave up, but he was done fighting. As was Yoda. All that they could do was train Luke to become a strong Jedi. Most of the remaining Jedi were dying because the Purge was still going on, Quinlan was like evil, and Asajj didn't want to fight anymore.

Anyways, this is RODV Vader, not OT Vader. OT Vader, I agree, would beat Kit and put up a damn good fight against Obi-Wan.

Jedi win

I'd still say Fisto could take down any crippled Vader. So yeah, the Jedi win.

I wouldn't hesitate to put them on the same level... now.

But I'm going to listen to the ANH commentary to see if Old Ben really is stronger than Yoda.

Ben wasn't stronger than Yoda but he was extremely strong in the force by ANH, I still believe he would best ROTS Obiwan with just the force.

I still believe that he would have been in contact with other jedi and definitely don't think he would have gotten worse in saber combat.

Originally posted by tdtd
Ben wasn't stronger than Yoda but he was extremely strong in the force by ANH, I still believe he would best ROTS Obiwan with just the force.

Where is the proof of this?

And Mace defeated Sidious because he was more battle hardened, he had seen alot more combat and was a better saber user. Obi-Wan also doesen't use offensive force powers so how would he take down ROTS Obi-Wan, force pushes????

Didn't GL say that Ben was just an old man in ANH hence why he was so slow and seemed so weak?

Really? Mace may have bested Sidious in the pure saber fight, but it's still premature to call him the better duelist. Possibly a more "in shape" duelist?

Wait, since when did ANH Vader beating ANH Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan let him mean that RODV Vader could beat ROTS Obi-Wan who, by the way, is stronger than ANH Obi-Wan cause he's in far better shape, what with being a Clone Wars Hero while ANH Obi-Wan hasn't been doing alot for 19 years?


Yes, he is very strong, but all he did ovet the 19 years was get old amd out of shape wjile ROTS Obi-Wan was at the peak of his power, fresh out of the Clone Wars, tip-top shape. Over the 19 years Obi-Wan learned how to communicate with Qui-Gon but learning that only took at most a month, since by the end of RODV Obi-Wan was talking with Qui-Gon.


No - his job is to look after Luke. If he fails the Galaxy is doomed. For the most part when he's in those books he'll have roles like the one he had in RODV.


Yoda? Yoda's on a different planet.


Complaining about how much the water on tatioone costs, whatching Beru shot with Luke on a carrier in front of her, and talk with Cudgel's friends.



Yes. If you'd read ROTV you'd know that Obi-Wan thought the Jedi who went after Vader and tried to stop him where morons. He knew his only purpose in life from that point on was to watch over Luke.



Not to mention that Obi-Wan thought both Asajj and Quinlan were dead.


Yes, he was, stated by Lucas in the ANH AC during the beginning of the Obi-Wan vs. Vader duel.


Just an old man part is right, he never said he was weak, but it's clear he was weaker than he was in ROTS. he also said "By now Obi-Wan's the strongest good guy." meanong Obi-Wan (ANH) > Yoda (ANH)

If Ben is stronger than Yoda (I'm about to listen to it now) then it opens up two possibilities.

1) Vader is weaker than Ben, Ben could have owned him in that duel and chose not to.

or

2) Vader himself is more powerful than Yoda.

Both seem a bit unlikely, the first one seems like Kenobi was aiming for a moral victory instead of a physical one, but he should have killed Vader when he had the chance... It was actually kinda stupid of him. The second one puts Vader on top of basically everyone except the Emperor himself... I think that's odd too.

EDIT: GL said "at this point, the strongest good guy". This could be very well referring to the fact that Yoda had not been introduced yet.

Ben Kenobi is not more powerful than Yoda, but he is still pretty damned powerful. For those that think that ROTS Kenobi could beat ANH Kenobi in a duel, I prefer to think that ANH is the better swordsman and more powerful in the Force, but far less flashy and far more practical. Sure, he's a bit rusty, but that's not to say he's any less skilled.

For Vader vs. Kenobi, I would think that they were on par, like in the ROTS fight. Kenobi either couldn't bump off Vader because they were too equal this time, or because Kenobi needed longer to kill him, but didn't exactly have much time when the others are ready to blast out of there.

Darth Kabbala appears and pwns everyone. QED.

Although Vader could be more powerful than Yoda (we do not know how powerful ANH Yoda is) I say #1. Obi-Wan lost to save Luke. If he hadn't, Luke would have tried to help him and would have gotten killed. If Obi-Wan killed Vader he'd never even get to the Falcon without getting killed by Stormies, and Luke'd die too.


Yes "at this point." meaning at the time of ANH Obi-wan's the strongest. Yoda was still alive, just cause he wasn't in the movie doesn't mean anything.


He is, GL, the highest source of canon, said so, so he is.


"Your destiny lies along a different path from mine."

"Escape is not his plan."

Obi-Wan never planned to leave the Death Star. he planned to be "killed" on the Death Star so he could become a Force Ghost. That's why he lost.

Well REX, if you think ANH is on par with Vader, then you're correct. But, wouldn't RotS Kenobi be able to defeat Vader with relative ease? I'd like to think so. So if RotS Kenobi can take Vader, he could most likely take Ben as well.

Don't forget that while with he age he MIGHT have been a bit out of shape (MIGHT as we have seen people like Dooku as old as him in pretty good shape), soresu is not a demanding form. It requires little energy and more patience and skill with a saber. He more likely mastered it to a higher degree.

He had mastered Soresu to its highest degree in ROTS, one of the reasons why Anakin wasn't able to penetrate Obi Wan's defenses, but over the years, he might have deteriotated physically, however its more than likely he grew stronger in the force.

the time inbetween ROTS and ANH, is rather long so we have nothing but speculation on what Obi Wan could've done in the time.

He had mastered Soresu extremely well but not to its highest degree

Numan, you're a dumbass. Obi-Wan IS the Soresu master of the PT era. If you master something, you MASTER IT TO ITS HIGHEST DEGREE. Don't just assign your own opinion to things. Now, go get banned.

You are such an idiot. Luminara mastered it too. That doesn't necessarily mean that they were both as good as eachother with Soresu.

Right. Do you actually have evidence of Obi-Wan NOT mastering his own form to its highest degree, or is this more "Numan sez, therefore it must be true" nonsense?

Wesker just accept that you were wrong. Mastering the form does not mean completely perfecting it otherwise everyone who mastered a form would be invincible.

Only in Numan's world does the level of master have a different meaning.

Apparently you're missing the point- you can master a form (And mastery implies just that- you've learned all there is to know), but whether or not that form is complete enough to make you invincible is a whole different question. You can master Shii-Cho, but does this mean you win every battle? No. Don't be ridiculous, Numan. Obi-Wan is noted by Mace Windu himself as being THE best Soresu practitioner of the entire era, and considering the guy hasn't been shot once since he adopted the form, I'd say he's mastering its principles pretty damn well. It's an anti-blaster form, not a saber combat form.

Yes he is the best Soresu practitioner of the PT era but he has still not mastered it to the fullest.

Again, prove up or shut up. Mace Windu, SIC of the order and a verified master of MANY forms claims that Obi-Wan is the best Soresu practitioner of the era and a bonafide master. You insisting there's suddenly "degrees" of the title of Form Master is no more canon than you insisting that after-images aren't from speed.

Firstly there are degrees to mastering a form. By your logic Dooku who was the only duelist to master makashi should have been invincible in saber dueling. Yet he still lost to Anakin and was losing to Yoda.
Secondly I wasn't denying that afterimages are from speed but was denying whether the things were actually really afterimages.

Originally posted by thetruepower
Firstly there are degrees to mastering a form. By your logic Dooku who was the only duelist to master makashi should have been invincible in saber dueling. Yet he still lost to Anakin and was losing to Yoda.
Secondly I wasn't denying that afterimages are from speed but was denying whether the things were actually really afterimages.

Firstly, reading comprehension is your friend. You need to PROVE that there are degrees of mastering a form, since I've pointed out that you can master the form, but it doesn't guarantee invincibility. Which brings us to your point- you say "By your logic, Dooku should have been invincible"... No, that's NOT my logic at all. Way to drop the ball.

Second, I read what you posted, Numan. You amuse me with your self contradictions.

Wesker there definitely are degrees to mastering a form. Luminara Unduli and Obi-Wan Kenobi both mastered Soresu, yet Mace Windu stated that he had mastered it more fully then she had.

Originally posted by Wesker
Only in Numan's world does the level of master have a different meaning.

Apparently you're missing the point- you can master a form (And mastery implies just that- you've learned all there is to know), but whether or not that form is complete enough to make you invincible is a whole different question. You can master Shii-Cho, but does this mean you win every battle? No. Don't be ridiculous, Numan. Obi-Wan is noted by Mace Windu himself as being THE best Soresu practitioner of the entire era, and considering the guy hasn't been shot once since he adopted the form, I'd say he's mastering its principles pretty damn well. It's an anti-blaster form, not a saber combat form.

I agree with the points, but are you sure that Soresu is only good against blasters? I thought that was just one of the KOTOR balancing things for the different styles. Obi-Wan has actually never been bested in ROTS in saber combat, when he fought Dooku it was with the force + that Obi-Wan was actually using offensive to work as a team with Anakin instead of being defencive, I'd say it's pretty well effective with saber vs saber too....

No he is wrong. There are different levels to mastering something. You can never stop improving.

Originally posted by kamikz
I agree with the points, but are you sure that Soresu is only good against blasters? I thought that was just one of the KOTOR balancing things for the different styles. Obi-Wan has actually never been bested in ROTS in saber combat, when he fought Dooku it was with the force + that Obi-Wan was actually using offensive to work as a team with Anakin instead of being defencive, I'd say it's pretty well effective with saber vs saber too....

It IS effective for being purely defensive (Like with Grievous), but that's not its main focus.

Form III
The third great lightsaber discipline was first developed in response to the advancement of blaster technology in the galaxy. As these weapons spread widely into the hands of evil-doers, Jedi had to develop unique means of defending themselves. Form III thus arose from "laserblast" deflection training. Over the centuries it has transcended this origin to become a highly refined expression of non-aggressive Jedi philosophy. Form III maximizes defensive protection in a style characterized by tight, efficient movements that expose minimal target area compared to the relatively open style of some of the other Forms.
Obi-Wan Kenobi takes up a dedication to Form III after the death of Qui-Gon Jinn (who favored Form IV), since it was apparent to Kenobi that Jinn's defense was insufficient against the Sith techniques of Darth Maul. True Form III masters are considered invincible. Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner.

Author Dr. David West Reynolds and fencer Jack "Stelen" Bobo derived the "in universe" principles of lightsaber combat based on the action that appears in all five Star Wars films to date. An importance notice to the reader: these Jedi histories are not stunt choreographies nor intructions from Episodes I and II Stunt Coordinator Nick Gillard, who developed the exciting sequences we see on screen. Do not attempt fencing without proper safety precautions and training.

See this article and other exciting information in Issue 62 of Star Wars Insider.

Here's the original excerpt on Form III from the creators. The only problem with the description is it claims Obi-Wan, being a master of Form III (Which is verified all over the board) would ideally be invincible. But that's not the case as we see in ROTS; true, he does put up the best defense possible against Grievous and later on with Anakin he holds up where most would fall... but I believe the claim of "A true master would be invincible" is an unsubstantiated claim. Obi-Wan is invincible in the face of superior firepower (Just watch AOTC where he combats the deadly Jango Fett and Slave I, or in ROTS where he effortlessly deflects blasts from all manners of droids, but in lightsaber combat his form is ineffective at gaining the advantage. He can only hold on until an opportunity arises itself, leaving the effectiveness of this form mostly up to the form and style of the opponent. For example, Dooku can tear right through this because his form IS made for saber to saber, while Obi-Wan's is primarily for blasterfire. Likewise, Mace Windu would tear right through it. Yoda would tear through it too. But this isn't a flaw in the master- it's a limitation of the form itself. Likewise, the only time Obi-Wan beat Anakin was when he was fully on the defensive and Anakin was foolish.

Originally posted by thetruepower
No he is wrong. There are different levels to mastering something. You can never stop improving.

No, I'm right. Obi-Wan IS verified to be a Soresu master, as was Luminara, but the limitation of the form makes the idea of being "invincible" an illusion. No form IS invincible when mastered.

I am not going into you're debate, I'm just asking if Soresu was effective against saber to cause I thought it was...

I answered your question though. The form basically relies on keeping a tight defense and waiting for an opening when it comes to saber combat. The primary focus of it is blaster bolt deflection. If it were REALLY effective in saber combat, Obi-Wan would have really put the heat on Dooku, Anakin, and Grievous. But he didn't; he held back and waited for an opening. For Dooku, that opening never came. Likewise, with Anakin it took a lot of dancing and he got punked more than a few times. Grievous was surprisingly easy to tear apart.

That was to Numas point, it was made before you replied, sorry

Wtf, Numan. He had mastered is, which is the same thing as perfecting it. That's why he moves on to practice other forms like Ataru; if he was perfect at Soresu, why not learn more?

My point was if mastering a form was compeltely perfecting it, then Luminara Unduli and Obi-Wan Kenobi would basically be equal. But they're not.

That just means one was better than the other. Two Makashi masters could battle it out, but one could pwn the other. It's all about their skill, not their mastery over a form.

No, cause Obi-Wan's just plain better. Qui-Gon mastered Ataru and so did Yoda but are they equal? Hell no. Could Qui-Gon ever be Yoda's equal? No, but he was still mastered Ataru to the highest extent that he personally can.

My point was that there are degrees of mastery over a form.

Exactly, DS.

If you master something, you know every part of it, every weakness and advantage of it, you know the form. Anakin was perhaps a Shien master. There could be other Shien masters that could wtfpwn him, couldn't there?

Exactly, that is what I am saying. Being a master of a saber form is a title that represents such mastery over the saber form. That doesnt' mean you cannot improve upon it.

Well, you're right in a way. You could add onto the form like Windu did and perhaps create a subform, but you can't continue learning about a form after you've mastered it.

Whathe was saying is Obi-Wan hadn't mastered Soresu to a certain degree. I'd like to know where he's getting this since Obi-Wan is the best Soresu practitioner in the entire series that we even know of.

Where's your proof, Numan?

Originally posted by thetruepower
He had mastered Soresu extremely well but not to its highest degree

This is what I said idiot.

Yes, it is. You are claiming that Obi-Wan had "mastered" Soresu, but not to a certain degree. Apparently now there are degrees of Soresu mastery according to Numan-canon, but you can't prove up anything; it's just your opinion.

The fact that Luminara and Kenobi both mastered it, and Windu said that Kenobi was the better soresu master is proof that there are levels of mastery. Master of a form is just a title that refers to people who are very very very proficient in their saber form.

Numan you can master something but it's essentially your skill that does the trick. Yoda was known to have mastered all saber forms except Vaapad, and so was Sidious, but Yoda is a better saber duelist than Sidious, why? Because he has more skill.

His skill is an aspect of his form.

Actually, I'd love to see proof that Yoda and Sidious mastered any forms outside of Ataru (Or Juyo, in Sidious' case).

But that's not the point- Numan's confusing form limitations and personal skill with degrees of mastery, which is why he's a preteen and should be banned.

Originally posted by kamikz
I agree with the points, but are you sure that Soresu is only good against blasters? I thought that was just one of the KOTOR balancing things for the different styles. Obi-Wan has actually never been bested in ROTS in saber combat, when he fought Dooku it was with the force + that Obi-Wan was actually using offensive to work as a team with Anakin instead of being defencive, I'd say it's pretty well effective with saber vs saber too....

He means that it was created for the purpose of blaster deflection and ranged weapon defense, not lightsaber combat, just as Djem So was created for the purpose of turning an enemy's blaster attack back at them. That doesn't mean they aren't necessarily effective in a duel.

Originally posted by Wesker
Actually, I'd love to see proof that Yoda and Sidious mastered any forms outside of Ataru (Or Juyo, in Sidious' case).


He used a blend between all of the forms besides Juyo. (Niman)

Janus, it was sad that Yoda mastered all of the forms except Vaapad.. I'm not too sure about Sidious but I either read it somewhere or saw it on some commentary, I'll try to find the sources.

"Originally posted by thetruepower
He had mastered Soresu extremely well but not to its highest degree


This is what I said idiot."

Can't deal with other peoples logic so you're now debating, and insulting yourself? You just moved down another rank in my book.

I don't know if RODV Vader is good enough to pull it off at this point. He doesn't have the mastery of the force that he has in the OT that would win him the fight. If he could manage to throw Kit away with the force repeatedly until he and Asajj finally break Kenobi's defences, then they'll win, otherwise, I'm not sure. Either way, it would be tough.

Just a side note. I thought (note "thought", I'm not pulling a Numan and trying to pass off my opinion as fact) that Soresu was based on defence. Not necessarily just blaster fire, but in saber combat also. You do need to wait for an opening, like Janus said earlier, but you put very little energy into it and get an almost impenetrable defence. Basically, if you're against a Soresu master and you have a blaster, you're screwed, but if you have a saber, you will need to keep yourself protected and not do anything stupid (pull an Anakin) and need to constantly use new ways to break their defence.

Although OT Vader can be argued to be superior to ROTS Anakin, RODV Vader could not. I think it was stated that Vader lost power after the lava bath and whether he regained that power and then some remains to be seen.

tdtd, where does it say Yoda mastered all forms? Wikipedia?

Well, he had to go to a new saber style and adapt and such, so immediately after he lost some power, but what he learned in the force from restricted Jedi Holocrons and Sidious' Sith teachings later on surpasses Anakins knowledge of the force by leagues. I've even went as far as to say that the increase in physical strength and durability provided by the armor makes up for his loss of maneuverability (which wasn't a lot, as we see in Ep. 5). Now that argument may be at an all time high because people that were against that theory before are now arguing that the ancient Sith Lords were great at fighting because they had great physical strength (along with experience and normal speed and maneuverability, check and check for Vader). I am a Vader fan, I'm not going to deny it, but because of his character and personality. It just so happens that he is very powerful also.