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Who takes this?

There's a fully powered Spectre now? Anyways this was done in the crossovers. I didnt see the ending. But i will say it s a draw.

LT says "Go away" and the Spectre dissapears.

Originally posted by Thunderstrike
LT says "Go away" and the Spectre dissapears. Now why doesnt Spectre do the same thing to LT then? They fought in the crossovers. It was a good fight.

Can someone explain how that fight went, because I'm dying to know !

I like Spectre, but I find it weird. If he's on Living Tribunal's level, then why does he get involved in Earthly affairs? LT only gets involved in affairs that threaten the stability of entire Universes. Spectre gets involved in small matters, therefore I assumed his jurisdiction was smaller.

Ne ways if thier both the judges for "God" then who could really say who wins here?

All I'm figuring is that Spectre was said to have been hurt by Darksied's Omega Effect. That would not hurt the Living Tribunal. Also someone stated that the Spectre got his ass handed to him by Lucifer. Somehow I don't think Lucifer would beat Living Tribunal either. Now just me wait..im gonna get yelled at by many many Vertigo fans, but here me out. I've read several issues of Lucifer, the artwork isn't that great, but the stories are awesome. Good sh*t ! However, I haven't seen anything that impressed me soooo much that I would be convinced that he could kill or beat Living Tribunal. Living Tribunal derives his power from The One Above All, and Lucifer uses his own power reserves.

From everything I know, I'd say Living Tribunal takes this .

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Can someone explain how that fight went, because I'm dying to know !

I like Spectre, but I find it weird. If he's on Living Tribunal's level, then why does he get involved in Earthly affairs? LT only gets involved in affairs that threaten the stability of entire Universes. Spectre gets involved in small matters, therefore I assumed his jurisdiction was smaller.

Ne ways if thier both the judges for "God" then who could really say who wins here?

All I'm figuring is that Spectre was said to have been hurt by Darksied's Omega Effect. That would not hurt the Living Tribunal. Also someone stated that the Spectre got his ass handed to him by Lucifer. Somehow I don't think Lucifer would beat Living Tribunal either. Now just me wait..im gonna get yelled at by many many Vertigo fans, but here me out. I've read several issues of Lucifer, the artwork isn't that great, but the stories are awesome. Good sh*t ! However, I haven't seen anything that impressed me soooo much that I would be convinced that he could kill or beat Living Tribunal. Living Tribunal derives his power from The One Above All, and Lucifer uses his own power reserves.

From everything I know, I'd say Living Tribunal takes this .
Spectre get's involved in "earthly affairs"because that's what he does as the spirit of vengeance.

Lucifer has never beaten the Spectre that was micheal who was sent on the presence behalf

Tribunal hasn't done anything impressive either well nothing compared to what the Spectre's done.

If by "Fully-powered Spectre"You mean backed by the presence then LT doesn't stand a chance no one under God himself would be able to win.

Depends on what we're calling full powered Spectre.

Hal as Spectre at the end of issue 27 of volume 4, was basically controlling the entire multiverse, guiding every destiny and soul, building and destroying universes and all that good stuff.

Spectre has more feats than Tribunal to account for.

But it's still a weak arguement, imo.

And Urizen, don't believe everything you hear. Lucifer didn't beat up Spectre, but Spectre has conquered Hell simply by willing it.


Darkseid's Omega Effect made Hal say "uhn". But Darkseid at the height of his power has demolished multiversal level threats, even made The Source feel pain, and even stepped into and tapped into it's power, and found what was beyond it. -- Anyways, after saying "uhn" from the cheapshot Omega Effect, Spectre erased him. He later reformed, because Darkseid is neccisary to existance as a whole. He balances all of creation. Your whole post seemed based in hearsay.


Spectre actually doesn't often get involved in Earthly matters too much, the hero vs hero stuff. He goes around guiding souls and finding the mysteries of creation. He does spend TIME on Earth, because he's bonded to a HUMAN SOUL who is often anchored/attached to Earth, as it's where he lived life... some have a hard time giving that up. Spectre has a job to do, but the host has a mission of enlightenment he must continue on, and it often deals with him finally letting go of his Earthly ties.

{Spectre get's involved in "earthly affairs"because that's what he does as the spirit of vengeance.}

I understand that, but he's getting involved in the affairs of one world. Why not get involved in the affairs of other worlds? There has to be like billions of worlds that need a Spirit of Vengeance. Living Tribunal wouldn't waste his time on one world, Only entire universes count to him, his jurisdiction seems higher and logically makes more sense. anways the Spectre is too Earth-centered, I don't buy the whole cosmic being comes from Earth, one world, and then he has power over multiple universes.

{Lucifer has never beaten the Spectre that was micheal who was sent on the presence behalf}

My mistake, I'm sorry, I meant to just state that Lucifer is above Spectre.


[Tribunal hasn't done anything impressive either well nothing compared to what the Spectre's done.}

Okay what would you say is the greatest thing Spectre has done? Not impressive..Living Tribunal? He banished Beyonder into one universe (In a Guardians of the Galaxy issue) and held the Pheonix Force in his hand. He halted Adam Warlock's Infitini Gauntlet rage. Tell me none of those things are impressive. Seriously....

I think people like Spectre more cuz he's not passive like Living Tribunal. LT is indifferent to good and evil while Spectre is vengeful and PO'ed. I can understand the appeal of angry characters, and the possible boredom one may feel with LT.

But LT doesn't need to display anger that way, why should he? He has infinite power, he represents the ONE ABOVE ALL, his sole duty is to judge the outcome of Universe's destinies.

{{If by "Fully-powered Spectre"You mean backed by the presence then LT doesn't stand a chance no one under God himself would be able to win.}}}

Yes he does. Spectre is powered by the Presence, Living Tribunal is powered by the One Above All. It's God's minion VS God's minion ! This debate will go no where.

LT doesn't need to go to full power, he's given whatever power is needed to carry forth judgement on a Universe. If the IG couldn't hurt him, niether could Spectre.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{Spectre get's involved in "earthly affairs"because that's what he does as the spirit of vengeance.}

I understand that, but he's getting involved in the affairs of one world. Why not get involved in the affairs of other worlds? There has to be like billions of worlds that need a Spirit of Vengeance. Living Tribunal wouldn't waste his time on one world, Only entire universes count to him, his jurisdiction seems higher and logically makes more sense. anways the Spectre is too Earth-centered, I don't buy the whole cosmic being comes from Earth, one world, and then he has power over multiple universes. Obviously Urizen you have no place to speak on Spectre. Maybe you should stick to the strengths of LT instead. Spectre DOES get involved in the other worlds. He exists in all worlds, in all planes, in all realities in DC. Spectre PRIME walks the Earth, tied to a human soul, but is broadcasted across all of creation.

I would continue but it would seem that Juntai and GS are here so good luck to you......

I say they are characters that are equal when weighed overall generally, so really this can't be debated as really the logical answer is stalemate.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen


Okay what would you say is the greatest thing Spectre has done? Not impressive..Living Tribunal? He banished Beyonder into one universe (In a Guardians of the Galaxy issue) and held the Pheonix Force in his hand. He halted Adam Warlock's Infitini Gauntlet rage. Tell me none of those things are impressive. Seriously....



Dont try it LU. Lt did hold Phoenix in his hand but nothing was stated about their comparative power level so dont make assumptions based on her landing on his hand to tell him he is no longer needed because shes done his job for him.

Lt says its his wish for Phoenix to not take a host and Phoenix chooses not to with the captions saying that Phoenix CHOSE TO LISTEN TO HIM AT THAT TIME, because she knew no host could safely hold her power for long and she could threaten the multiverse.

With that in mind dont make assumptions, especially totally unsupported ones. The only time the Phoenix and LT's powers have been weighed up directly against each other was in X-men Forever and Eternity stated that the Phoenix power can render someone supreme in creation and he created a depiction of LT bowing before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger. Remember that!!

LT banishing Beyonder in Guardians of the Galaxy isnt impressive as he has long by that time been demoted to an incomplete cosmic cube.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont try it LU. Lt did hold Phoenix in his hand but nothing was stated about their comparative power level so dont make assumptions based on her landing on his hand to tell him he is no longer needed because shes done his job for him.

Lt says its his wish for Phoenix to not take a host and Phoenix chooses not to with the captions saying that Phoenix CHOSE TO LISTEN TO HIM AT THAT TIME, because she knew no host could safely hold her power for long and she could threaten the multiverse.

With that in mind dont make assumptions, especially totally unsupported ones. The only time the Phoenix and LT's powers have been weighed up directly against each other was in X-men Forever and Eternity stated that the Phoenix power can render someone supreme in creation and he created a depiction of LT bowing before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger. Remember that!! Originally posted by S.S
I would continue but it would seem that Juntai and GS are here so good luck to you......

Originally posted by S.S
I would continue but it would seem that Juntai and GS are here so good luck to you...... lol.

Halting Adams outburst isnt nearly as impressive as it sounds when u consider Dr Strange has done the same thing. If Adam attacked at full power and was out to kill LT and LT managed to do so then you'd have a point. As it stands LT agreed in that issue that he didnt know how his power fared against the IG and he therefore talked Adam out of a confrontation for the sake of 616.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Can someone explain how that fight went, because I'm dying to know !

I like Spectre, but I find it weird. If he's on Living Tribunal's level, then why does he get involved in Earthly affairs? LT only gets involved in affairs that threaten the stability of entire Universes. Spectre gets involved in small matters, therefore I assumed his jurisdiction was smaller.

Phoenix gets involved in earth affairs all the time, shes even spent time as a member of the X-men, yet shes still responsible for making Marvel creation. Your logic doesnt cut it. Dont confuse role with power.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ne ways if thier both the judges for "God" then who could really say who wins here?



Lt doesnt conclusively have anything to do with Marvels God. All that has ever been stated about TOAA is that its LTs master and that it is a power abover the IG. These days there are many powers depicted on panel as being so, does that make them supreme beings as well?

In F4 last year God was depicted on panel and yet no reference of "TOAA" was to be found on any one of the issues 23 pages.

TOAA is the "First Fallen"....
I know who would love that.....

Originally posted by S.S
TOAA is the "First Fallen"....
I know who would love that.....



That would be a dream come true!!!

What happened in that Fantastic 4 issue?

Originally posted by Juntai
What happened in that Fantastic 4 issue?


Ben had died and the rest of the F4 went to retrieve him from heaven lol

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ben had died and the rest of the F4 went to retrieve him from heaven lol Wierd, I never realised Marvel utilized religion like that, never seen it in their comics before. Sounds kinda like a corny story though, but I guess that's the Fantastic 4 for ya.

Originally posted by Juntai
Wierd, I never realised Marvel utilized religion like that, never seen it in their comics before.

Same here. I only picked recently picked up the issue and only cos i heard God was in it. I dont know why but I was a bit disappointed when he was just shown as a comicbook writer lol

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Same here. I only picked recently picked up the issue and only cos i heard God was in it. I dont know why but I was a bit disappointed when he was just shown as a comicbook writer lol Like when Animal Man thought he found God?

"God? Haha. No. I'm just your writer." - Grant Morrison. lol.

Originally posted by Juntai
Like when Animal Man thought he found God?

"God? Haha. No. I'm just your writer." - Grant Morrison. lol.
Grant is God.........

Originally posted by S.S
Grant is God......... Certainly one of the best creative minds in comics.

Originally posted by Juntai
Certainly one of the best creative minds in comics.
Him and neil Gaiman who's writing the new eternals series......drool

Originally posted by S.S
Him and neil Gaiman who's writing the new eternals series......drool Yep, I'll be grabbing that. Gaiman is just. . . .awesome. Even bought his movie.
Anyways, back to the topic.

{Wierd, I never realised Marvel utilized religion like that, never seen it in their comics before. Sounds kinda like a corny story though, but I guess that's the Fantastic 4 for ya.}

It is corny bro, ur right.

Hey I got nothing against religion, but i do find it cheesy when God and Heaven are automatically made the supreme, and nothing can go against that. Not everyone beleives in God and Heaven, etc. Marvel and DC , well more DC than Marvel, are just taking the dominant religion, using it to boost thier popularity and "validate" the power of thier characters like Spectre, Lucifer, etc. and then ofcourse people willingly accept that, rather than question it, and then we have these debates rely on that fact.

Limits man..such limits....

Sorry ppl, i know i sound stupid here, but Creativity needs to extend. Religion is limitting possibility and creativity here, and its so corny, thats kinda why i dont read DC or Marvel as much ne more.

Image and Top Cow use religion as well, but they use all religions to go into thier mythology, and they actually give God a weakness...whether it be a character flaw, or having his omnipotence be a sham.....im not saying it reflects on reality, but its a lot more interesting and creative.

Most of that is taken out of context, following hieghts of powers to their conclusion, eventually you do end up with one being that created all or in a different term, created the beings that created all.... that being in DC "The Presence". "The Presence" cannot be defeated, because it simply "is". It is the sum of the whole, and more. Not a being that can be challenged or defeated or have a weakness. Most other religions are taken into account, Zues, Odin, etc.. those gods are all byproducts of creation by The Oversoul or The Presence or beings or ideas 'it' created...and are all small fractions of it's whole, just as everything is. No matter how far imagination goes, in the end everything "is" as it should be, as written. It is totality at it's greatest. The absolute hieghth of imagination as it were, as it encompasses all.

Even in Crossgen, which you refered to in another thread, all followed up into higher and higher level beings like The First, the Atlanteans, until we had the starry guys that represented the Negation and Universe common, similar to the Monitor and Anti-Monitor, and then we found the female that created all of them. By 'willing' them to be, and we found that not even she was total, and obviously did not make Crossgen's creation. Had the books carried on longer, like hundreds of issues, or perhaps even through their Negation War we would have eventually learned OF the supreme unchallengable being that made all possibilities possible. Or had references to him/her/it in the least. Crossgen was awesome, I read pretty much every issue.

Honeslty, I have no idea who would win between LT and Spectre. But I must say Spectre has more impressive feats, no doubt.

Originally posted by batdude123
Who takes this?

Who gives a shit .... these threads always end up with G.S. making some reference to the phoenix, and then everyone arguing with him (in long repetitive essays, that become so ambiguous and convoluted that everyone just ends reiterating their original points over and over)

Basically these threads come down to an absurd theology that compares the Marvel supreme being with the D.C. one.

'My Gods better that yours' .... Who gives a Shit ?????? How many comics have been written about TOAA or the Source, none !!!!!

{{{{Most of that is taken out of context, following hieghts of powers to their conclusion, eventually you do end up with one being that created all or in a different term, created the beings that created all.... that being in DC "The Presence". "The Presence" cannot be defeated, because it simply "is". It is the sum of the whole, and more. Not a being that can be challenged or defeated or have a weakness. Most other religions are taken into account, Zues, Odin, etc.. those gods are all byproducts of creation by The Oversoul or The Presence or beings or ideas 'it' created...and are all small fractions of it's whole, just as everything is. No matter how far imagination goes, in the end everything "is" as it should be, as written. It is totality at it's greatest. The absolute hieghth of imagination as it were, as it encompasses all.}}


Okay, so in terms of Presence and Yahweh. Who is more powerful, or are they the same being?

Secondly, I understand that eventually there is a Supreme Force that birthed everything else. However, DC, I think, became a little cheesy with putting the Christian God on top, and therefore denying any more possibility.

Spectre, Lucifer, Micheal...are like on top of DC/Vertigo correct? Where can you after that, in terms of power heirarchy ? Or in terms of anything....

Alteast Image CHALLENGES thier Supreme Being. There isn't this FLAT UNDERSTANDING that God is all and therefore nothing against his will can happen. In fact everything against his will occurs. Even if he is meant to be the Supreme Being, his will and status are challenged all the time, and lesser characters CAN defy his wishes and goals.


{{Even in Crossgen, which you refered to in another thread, all followed up into higher and higher level beings like The First, the Atlanteans, until we had the starry guys that represented the Negation and Universe common, similar to the Monitor and Anti-Monitor, and then we found the female that created all of them. By 'willing' them to be, and we found that not even she was total, and obviously did not make Crossgen's creation. Had the books carried on longer, like hundreds of issues, or perhaps even through their Negation War we would have eventually learned OF the supreme unchallengable being that made all possibilities possible. Or had references to him/her/it in the least. Crossgen was awesome, I read pretty much every issue.}}


Crossgen was beautiful. It's what actually made me steer away from Marvel and DC. It was so much more ...i duno....I loved it more.

You speak of Charon, Appolyan, Solusandra, and Danik. However, these beings were once mortal. They became all powerful through scientific means.

Ultamately, well atleast from what has been published, there is no true supreme being. Crossgen's Universe is just there, and Negation's Universe is totally F*cked up. Do you remember how the physics of Negation's Universe was SO FLAWED ? Charon wanted to "FIX" that mistake of a dimension.

Obviously, each universe had to have had a different designer, If having any designer at all.

There is no evidence in Crossgen comics to prove that a Supreme Being beyond Solus and Charon exist.

We only go by that, cuz it's what we are used to. Throughout history every religion has had a supreme being, every civilization has had ONE on top..a king, queen, etc. But none of these ideals every achieved perfection. It's molded in our heads to have this idealogy in us, and therefore when Comic Book Writers create thier stories, this influence automatically compells them to have a Supreme Being.

That doesn't make it true or manditory.

That's one of the hundreds of reasons I liked Crossgen. Possibilities were more abundant.

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
Who gives a shit .... these threads always end up with G.S. making some reference to the phoenix, and then everyone arguing with him (in long repetitive essays, that become so ambiguous and convoluted that everyone just ends reiterating their original points over and over)

Basically these threads come down to an absurd theology that compares the Marvel supreme being with the D.C. one.

'My Gods better that yours' .... Who gives a Shit ?????? How many comics have been written about TOAA or the Source, none !!!!!

Yahman returns.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Whirly reborn.

Its happened many a time my friend !

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
Its happened many a time my friend !

Why do you two do this to me. Im so damn confused. lol. Im quite sure Skank is Yahman.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why do you two do this to me. Im so damn confused. lol. Im quite sure Skank is Yahman.

Indeed my friend .... but i hesitate to guess that you are confused a lot.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Indeed my friend .... but i hesitate to guess that you are confused a lot.

Dont try it toyboy. Hows Whirly btw?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont try it toyboy. Hows Whirly btw?

Allow me to answer that .... I believe he is a live and well. shifty

I believe you were invited to our latest meeting place, i do hope you will join us. I will enjoy humiliating you in front of a new audience.

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
Allow me to answer that .... I believe he is a live and well. shifty

I believe you were invited to our latest meeting place, i do hope you will join us. I will enjoy humiliating you in front of a new audience.

He told me that he was keen !

who is full power Spectre

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
Allow me to answer that .... I believe he is a live and well. shifty

I believe you were invited to our latest meeting place, i do hope you will join us. I will enjoy humiliating you in front of a new audience.

Thats never happened and never could happen.

Originally posted by kgkg
who is full power Spectre

He lives

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He lives

Sup GS long time


You still debating big cosmic stuff i see

Originally posted by kgkg
Sup GS long time


You still debating big cosmic stuff i see

Its a never-ending battle. Wouldnt have it any other way.

Where u been?

Originally posted by kgkg
who is full power Spectre

Hello KG, how are you ?

Originally posted by kgkg
who is full power Spectre

Alright mate ??????

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its a never-ending battle. Wouldnt have it any other way.

Where u been?
i been playing games................

Originally posted by kgkg
i been playing games................

U been following E3? If so what are u interested in?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yeah i thought the Wii games looked like a lot of fun. Graphically its somewhere in between the original Xbox and the the 360. While thats nowhere near as good as 360 and PS3 the games looked alot more interesting and i cant wait to get hold of that controller. Alot of the PS3 and 360's lineup were predictable and just didnt excite me. Im def gonna get a Wii first cos its gonna be alot cheaper and then eventually i'll get a PS3 when the price comes down.

What type of game is Rakion?
ya Wii looks like it's gonna change gaming.

Smash Bros looked awsome.

Rakion - is a action fighting game.

you make a character and battle other players

http://www.rakion.net/

you should try it out it's really fun

Will Nintendo EVER make an update to Kid Icarus? Nintendo is really pissing me off with that.

Link, Samus and Mario make game after game for each generation of console, but Pit is nowhere to be seen. That was one of my favorite NES games next to Mike Tyson's Punchout, Ring King, Rygar and Ninja Gaiden, and even they got makeovers.

I don't want Mario Hockey, I want a 3D Kid Icarus game Miyamoto!!!!!

I also want an update to River City Ransom. That game was a classic. They should make it an MMORPG like a giant GTA clone.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Will Nintendo EVER make an update to Kid Icarus? Nintendo is really pissing me off with that.

Link, Samus and Mario make game after game for each generation of console, but Pit is nowhere to be seen. That was one of my favorite NES games next to Mike Tyson's Punchout, Ring King, Rygar and Ninja Gaiden, and even they got makeovers.

I don't want Mario Hockey, I want a 3D Kid Icarus game Miyamoto!!!!!

I also want an update to River City Ransom. That game was a classic. They should make it an MMORPG like a giant GTA clone.
PIT is gonna to be on Super Smash Bro Brawlz

Originally posted by illadelph12
Will Nintendo EVER make an update to Kid Icarus? Nintendo is really pissing me off with that.

Link, Samus and Mario make game after game for each generation of console, but Pit is nowhere to be seen. That was one of my favorite NES games next to Mike Tyson's Punchout, Ring King, Rygar and Ninja Gaiden, and even they got makeovers.

I don't want Mario Hockey, I want a 3D Kid Icarus game Miyamoto!!!!!

I also want an update to River City Ransom. That game was a classic. They should make it an MMORPG like a giant GTA clone.

Miyamoto said a Kid Icarus update is likely!! He said he'd like to make one. I'll see if i can find the article.

U a Nintendo fan as well? Wiis looking very good.

Anyone got the scans of this Crossover?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
U a Nintendo fan as well? Wiis looking very good.

I've been down with Nintendo since Gyromite and R.O.B..

I even bought that damn Virtual Boy.

I've owned every console Nintendo has put out, and will continue to because they always produce quality gameplay experiences.

Please find that article about Kid Icarus. I've been waiting almost 2 decades for a new Icarus game. It takes place in the Greek Mythology universe, so there's plenty of material. I don't see why they haven't don it yet. It's almost gotten to the point where they'll put out Mario Arm Wrestling before they'll put out a next gen Kid Icarus.

I hope Nintendo can work something with Tecmo to get Rygar and Ninja Gaiden. I know Microsoft has an exclusive contract for the DoA series.

Why didn't Nintendo ever make a game out of Captain N: The Game Master? Given the success of Kingdom Hearts, I think an RPG that spans the entire Nintendo universe would sell like hotcakes. I'd rather run with Fox Mccloud and the Eggplant Wizard than Goofy and Donald Duck.

This wasnt the interview i was talking about, but it'll do for now:

http://www.n-sider.com/newsview.php?type=story&storyid=832

I'll carry on looking.

They both follow the orders of the One Above All, in both their universes. Spectre is more direct about it; Living Tribunal has juristiction over everyone, except TOAA. Fight seems a draw - but Spectre has longer history of jobbing.

{They both follow the orders of the One Above All, in both their universes. Spectre is more direct about it; Living Tribunal has juristiction over everyone, except TOAA. Fight seems a draw - but Spectre has longer history of jobbing.}

Yeah he does. How can Darksied and beings as this give him any trouble if he's that powerful ?

But still, it does seem a draw. It's like Marvel God vs DC God, both beings are backed up by thier superiors.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

But still, it does seem a draw. It's like Marvel God vs DC God, both beings are backed up by thier superiors.

It'll be like that when TOAA is confirmed by canon as Marvels God.

You mean like it's been confirmed on panel that Jean Grey can be killed?

(Sorry, couldn't resist).

{It'll be like that when TOAA is confirmed by canon as Marvels God.}


Are you kidding ?

In DC it's not even certain to me whether the Precense or Yahweh is the true God.

The One Above All doesn't have to be confirmed as "God". You're thinking to religiously and literal here. The One Above All is the SUPREME BEING is Marvel's multiverse bro. Therefore he is either the being we want to call "GOD" Or he's just the SUPREME BEING...doesn't matter.

He or she, whichever, is equivlent to DC's Supreme Being. Only TOAA was able to withstand Thanos with HOTU, therefore he's obviously above all.

I'm not even gonna continue arguing this, you're point was rediculous bro

Originally posted by illadelph12
You mean like it's been confirmed on panel that Jean Grey can be killed?

(Sorry, couldn't resist).

It was stated in her that she can render herself totally indestructible and we have seen her keep her phsyical body alive from injuries that would prove fatal to a mortal body, because it was her wish to do so. All canon. Thats good enough.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{It'll be like that when TOAA is confirmed by canon as Marvels God.}


Are you kidding ?

In DC it's not even certain to me whether the Precense or Yahweh is the true God.

The One Above All doesn't have to be confirmed as "God". You're thinking to religiously and literal here. The One Above All is the SUPREME BEING is Marvel's multiverse bro. Therefore he is either the being we want to call "GOD" Or he's just the SUPREME BEING...doesn't matter.

He or she, whichever, is equivlent to DC's Supreme Being. Only TOAA was able to withstand Thanos with HOTU, therefore he's obviously above all.

I'm not even gonna continue arguing this, you're point was rediculous bro

All your opinion. Dc's supreme being has been stated in bios and on panel to be Yahweh with his many aspects in creation being the Presence, Word, Source etc. Its all been stated many a time on panel.

TOAA has never ever been stated to be Marvels supreme being. ALL that has been said is that it is LTs master and that it is a power greater than the IG. That is not conclusive confirmation that it is TOAA. It has been suggested but thats all. Please understand that.

{All your opinion. Dc's supreme being has been stated in bios and on panel to be Yahweh with his many aspects in creation being the Presence, Word, Source etc. Its all been stated many a time on panel.

TOAA has never ever been stated to be Marvels supreme being. ALL that has been said is that it is LTs master and that it is a power greater than the IG. That is not conclusive confirmation that it is TOAA. It has been suggested but thats all. Please understand that. }



Okay..I understand. Does it HAVE to be confirmed however? Does someone from Marvel have to write a letter to us saying "The One Above All" is the supreme being of Marvel, no ifs ands or buts.

"Ohhhh okay...now I can argue"

Just because Marvel doesn't clarify it, and put "suggestions" to imply that he/she is the supreme being, doesn't make it untrue.

Common Sense may help. If Living Tribunal is the judge of all realities in Marvel, and his power comes from ONE source above him, which makes the Infiniti Gauntlet "pale in comparison", AND this being is called "THE ONE ABOVE ALL"

then I'll assume that he is the ONE ABOVE ALL...sorta meaning SUPREME BEING...UNLESS Marvel does a DBZ and makes a "ONE ABOVE THE ONE ABOVE ALL" and so on.

BTW, i actually prefer Marvel's TOAA to Yahweh. TOAA since we dont know anything about him is up to infinite intepretation, therefore we can imagine him/her in our own versions, it engages the reader to volunteer.

DC/Vertigo's Yahweh is cool, but cheesy, limitted Christian interpretation (no offense), and since we get to know him, he's less of a mystery to us. Also he looks like the Mr. Monopoly guy.

BTW I love ur pheonix image. PHEONIX KICS ARSE !!!!!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was stated in her that she can render herself totally indestructible and we have seen her keep her phsyical body alive from injuries that would prove fatal to a mortal body, because it was her wish to do so. All canon. Thats good enough.

No, it's not GS.

She's dead currently, and it's canon.

Not only is she dead, she was killed by Xorn, who caused her a massive stroke with a global yield EMP in her head.

Regardless of what her bio says, per canon events in the comics, and her current status of deceased/inactive, she can be, and has been killed due to Jean's human ineptitude.

Per canon, Jean can be beaten. She's currently beaten and dead in continuity.

Originally posted by illadelph12
No, it's not GS.

She's dead currently, and it's canon.

Not only is she dead, she was killed by Xorn, who caused her a massive stroke with a global yield EMP in her head.

Regardless of what her bio says, per canon events in the comics, and her current status of deceased/inactive, she can be, and has been killed due to Jean's human ineptitude.

Per canon, Jean can be beaten. She's currently beaten and dead in continuity.

She returned to life in the future, and Im pretty sure Perfection; Black Queen of the Hell fire club is Jean. You can't kill someone who exists outside of time, they wouldn't permit it, unless they wanted to commit suicide, but there is no evidence of this.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{All your opinion. Dc's supreme being has been stated in bios and on panel to be Yahweh with his many aspects in creation being the Presence, Word, Source etc. Its all been stated many a time on panel.

TOAA has never ever been stated to be Marvels supreme being. ALL that has been said is that it is LTs master and that it is a power greater than the IG. That is not conclusive confirmation that it is TOAA. It has been suggested but thats all. Please understand that. }



Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Okay..I understand. Does it HAVE to be confirmed however? Does someone from Marvel have to write a letter to us saying "The One Above All" is the supreme being of Marvel, no ifs ands or buts.

"Ohhhh okay...now I can argue"

Just because Marvel doesn't clarify it, and put "suggestions" to imply that he/she is the supreme being, doesn't make it untrue.

Youre right, just because it hasnt been stated doesnt necessarily make it untrue as it has bveen suggested however what it does make ot is non canon and as such we cant claim him to be Marvels God in debate.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Common Sense may help. If Living Tribunal is the judge of all realities in Marvel, and his power comes from ONE source above him, which makes the Infiniti Gauntlet "pale in comparison", AND this being is called "THE ONE ABOVE ALL"

then I'll assume that he is the ONE ABOVE ALL...sorta meaning SUPREME BEING...UNLESS Marvel does a DBZ and makes a "ONE ABOVE THE ONE ABOVE ALL" and so on.

By that logic i can say that Phoenix is linked to God as it has been stated to be the life force of realities, it has feats which place it above the Ig, its power has been shown on panel to be capable of humbling LT and it serves an unseen consciousness which exists beyond creation and directs it. On top of that theres a Celestial called TOAA so youre logic about his name being enough is faulty as well.

While there have been allusions to LT's master being the God of Marvel, until its actually stated you cant treat it as fact, because of the aforementioned reasons.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
BTW, i actually prefer Marvel's TOAA to Yahweh. TOAA since we dont know anything about him is up to infinite intepretation, therefore we can imagine him/her in our own versions, it engages the reader to volunteer.

DC/Vertigo's Yahweh is cool, but cheesy, limitted Christian interpretation (no offense), and since we get to know him, he's less of a mystery to us. Also he looks like the Mr. Monopoly guy.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
BTW I love ur pheonix image. PHEONIX KICS ARSE !!!!!!

Thank u.

Originally posted by illadelph12
No, it's not GS.

She's dead currently, and it's canon.

Not only is she dead, she was killed by Xorn, who caused her a massive stroke with a global yield EMP in her head.

Regardless of what her bio says, per canon events in the comics, and her current status of deceased/inactive, she can be, and has been killed due to Jean's human ineptitude.

Per canon, Jean can be beaten. She's currently beaten and dead in continuity.

Please keep up to speed on current continuity Ill. It will stop you wasting your time with posts like this.

As per current continuity as stated in the bio Jeans physical body was destroyed and a few weeks later (Remember Jean got rid of Here Comes Tomorrow) Jean came back to life again because the Shiar awakened her prematurely and she is now currently in the White Hot Room incubating until her next manifestation.

If you read the latest issue of Uncanny you will see that Rachel is annoyed that her mother hasnt manifested back on Earth again especially when her polar opposite (The First Fallen) has decided to manifest on Earth.

spectre holds LT in his hands like LT did one pheonix avatar, and the pheonix dieing in any reality is not that bad all those beings are just avatars meaning there just instruments of the power not the power themselves they dont hold all the power some have more some have less, for example juggs is an avatar of cyttorak whom eternity couldnt get rid of but does that mean eternity cant get rid of juggernaut no that isnt true cause eternity has smacked juggs down, my point is that just cause one avatar dies doesnt mean anything to the PF as a whole same thing with darkseid he gets womped by supes and other lower beings but now in fairness to his power they have contributed to avatars since he is what he is a cosmic being essential to the DC

{{{{Youre right, just because it hasnt been stated doesnt necessarily make it untrue as it has bveen suggested however what it does make ot is non canon and as such we cant claim him to be Marvels God in debate.}}}



If you want to debate more in literal, current, set in stone facts, than yeah we cannot claim Marvel's TOAA to be its actual God. And yeah that thing about the Celestial being called TOAA totally confuses everything. However, the true TOAA doesn't have to be God necessarily. What do we know about him?

Or bro, what do you know about him?

1) If he truly infinite in power? Not like IG infinite, but truly complete Infinite ?

2) Is he a multiversal or omniversal being ?

3) Has there been any other character to be shown above The One Above All So far ?



If yes to all three, I think we can safely ASSUME he's Marvel's God. But that word "GOD"...does he have to be actually GOD? What if "God" doesn't exist in Marvel like people beleive he does in real life, or like he does in DC.....does that automatically lessen who he is ?

I think we're too bound to this idea of God and/or Supreme Being. The Supreme Being does not have to be God from ANY religion.

The only thing that goes in your favor, in my opinion, about TOAA not being the supreme being in Marvel's Entirety is the fact that Classic Beyonder was shown to be truly infinite as well.

If Classic Beyonder did still exist, just for arguments sake, he might be on the SAME level as TOAA ....what would be the difference ? They both would have the same powers.......just one is immature, while the other is supposedly mature....I guess lol

{{{{By that logic i can say that Phoenix is linked to God as it has been stated to be the life force of realities, it has feats which place it above the Ig, its power has been shown on panel to be capable of humbling LT and it serves an unseen consciousness which exists beyond creation and directs it. On top of that theres a Celestial called TOAA so youre logic about his name being enough is faulty as well.}}}}



Since we're talking about CURRENT IG, I cannot argue with you here.







{{{While there have been allusions to LT's master being the God of Marvel, until its actually stated you cant treat it as fact, because of the aforementioned reasons.}}}}



So what..it doesn't have to treated like GOD OF MARVEL...depending on which or what GOD ur referring too. Again, like I already said, it doesn't have to be the SAME GOD from any of our familiar religions.

Just remmeber, not everyone believes in God, so "GOD" himself is not going to the universal standard for an Imaginary Supreme Being.


NOW...whether or not TOAA is actually Marvel's Supreme Being....that I guess is debatable. Who says Classic Beyonder isn't exactly on par with today's TOAA ?

I couldnt even be bothered to read that rant. It was unnecessary as you have no proof that shows TOAA is Marvels supreme being. It was all just your opinion.

The point stands that while LTs master is certainly suggested to be God, by canon LT's master is NOT God/ the supreme being therefore you cant claim him to be so in debate. Its as simple as that, no long paragraphs required.

"no long paragraphs required"

That's funny coming from you..........

GS let them know that TOAA is really the "first fallen" the opposite of the phoenix force........

Originally posted by S.S
"no long paragraphs required"
That's funny coming from you..........


Ahhh, but theres a difference.When i post them, theyre coherent and fact filled and therefore debatably necessary and certainly relevant, not a rant featuring nothing but my personal opinion.



Originally posted by S.S
GS let them know that TOAA is really the "first fallen" the opposite of the phoenix force........

You read the issue yet? I cant wait to find out more about this "First Fallen"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ahhh, but theres a difference.When i post them, theyre coherent and fact filled and therefore debatably necessary and certainly relevant, not a rant featuring nothing but my personal opinion.
You read the issue yet? I cant wait to find out more about this "First Fallen"
I get you I don't even bother with reading his post he doesn't even use the Quote button......
No,only read what you posted...........
But that little bit got me interested is that in a current story arc?

{{{I couldnt even be bothered to read that rant.}}}}


Since you won't bother reading anything I argue, you have no place to make a response to what I said.



{{{{{ It was unnecessary as you have no proof that shows TOAA is Marvels supreme being. It was all just your opinion. }}}

I never SAID did...but yes its my opinion, and the opinon of many Marvel readers. Tell them they're wrong bro.



{{{The point stands that while LTs master is certainly suggested to be God, by canon LT's master is NOT God/ the supreme being therefore you cant claim him to be so in debate. Its as simple as that, no long paragraphs required.}}}}


Everone has been comparing TOAA to The Presence/Yahweh on these forums. Is there a reason why I cannot do so, while everyone else can ?

{{{Ahhh, but theres a difference.When i post them, theyre coherent and fact filled and therefore debatably necessary and certainly relevant, not a rant featuring nothing but my personal opinion. }}}}

If you would have read my "rants" you would see i put both factual reason to why I think what, and then I only ended it with my opinion.

However, i respect your right to not read it. You don't have 2, but then I won't debate with you at all.

I atleast have the decency to READ the sh*t you write, and then consider it, AND admit when im wrong.

You bro just seem to make a joke when you can't answer something.

Hey its all good though, i dont need to prove anything to you.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{I couldnt even be bothered to read that rant.}}}}


Since you won't bother reading anything I argue, you have no place to make a response to what I said.

I skimmed through it, we were debating about whether TOAA was God, there was no proof within pertaining to that debate, it was just a rant about why you think thats the case, therefore it was both unnecessary and irrelevant.



Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{{{ It was unnecessary as you have no proof that shows TOAA is Marvels supreme being. It was all just your opinion. }}}

I never SAID did...but yes its my opinion, and the opinon of many Marvel readers. Tell them they're wrong bro.

Id do so gladly because they are. The fact that many people believe a notion doesnt give it any more credit in a debate if its not verified as canon by any official source. Its not stated, therefore its not canon its simple as that. Its suggested, therefore you can speculate but you cannot treat the notion as fact in threads.



Originally posted by Lord Urizen



Everone has been comparing TOAA to The Presence/Yahweh on these forums. Is there a reason why I cannot do so, while everyone else can ?

Youre sounding like a ten year old now. So the question that seems most appropriate is If everyone jumped off a bridge would you?

It hasnt been stated, its conclusively NOT canon, however its something thast suggested and certainly possible. Leave it at that cos you certainly cant make it out to be fact.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{Ahhh, but theres a difference.When i post them, theyre coherent and fact filled and therefore debatably necessary and certainly relevant, not a rant featuring nothing but my personal opinion. }}}}

If you would have read my "rants" you would see i put both factual reason to why I think what, and then I only ended it with my opinion.

However, i respect your right to not read it. You don't have 2, but then I won't debate with you at all.

I atleast have the decency to READ the sh*t you write, and then consider it, AND admit when im wrong.

You bro just seem to make a joke when you can't answer something.

Hey its all good though, i dont need to prove anything to you.

I skimmed them, there was nothing but your opinion which is irrelevant when we're trying to ascertain whats canon as dictated by official sources.

You dont have to prove anything to me, youre quite right about that, but if you want to enter a debate and post nothing but your opinion and half truths, you'll get nowhere fast.

{{{{I skimmed through it, we were debating about whether TOAA was God, there was no proof within pertaining to that debate, it was just a rant about why you think thats the case, therefore it was both unnecessary and irrelevant. }}}}}

Okay point taken. Let's end that argument.






{{{Id do so gladly because they are. The fact that many people believe a notion doesnt give it any more credit in a debate if its not verified as canon by any official source. Its not stated, therefore its not canon its simple as that. Its suggested, therefore you can speculate but you cannot treat the notion as fact in threads. }}}}




Dude many things in comic books, besides Marvel and DC are either left for intepretation or simply suggested. Not everything is black and white and set in stone like DC tries to make it.

However, I've made that "open your mind" argument numerous times, and obviously it means nothing to you.

So tell ya what......

When I debate with YOU...i will do my best to ONLY speak from what I am ABSOLUTELY 1000%%%%% certain of with the comic book right in front me of to refer to.

Even If i am 99% sure, I won't voice it to YOU.

However, to everyone else, I'll take my chances.
















{{{{Youre sounding like a ten year old now. So the question that seems most appropriate is If everyone jumped off a bridge would you? }}}}}


Again this is disrespectful and unnecessary. I'm not insulting you, nor do I think I ever did. And I won't stoop down to insulting you, I will simply respond my own way.

TOAA is accepted as Marvel's Supreme Being by many many fans. You even stated that just because it's not set in stone doesn't make it untrue. The only thing that contradict's TOAA's supremecy in Marvel is or WAS the existance of Classic Beyonder.








{{It hasnt been stated, its conclusively NOT canon, however its something thast suggested and certainly possible. Leave it at that cos you certainly cant make it out to be fact.}}}


DEAL.....that argument will go no where







{{{{I skimmed them, there was nothing but your opinion which is irrelevant when we're trying to ascertain whats canon as dictated by official sources. }}}}}




Dude, there was more than opinion there if you actually READ it.

Anways I wasn't trying to actually PROVE anything there. I was justifying WHY my opinion was SUCH, since you were unwilling to consider it. IF I can't defend it, then there's no point in me debating with you.








{{{{{You dont have to prove anything to me, youre quite right about that, but if you want to enter a debate and post nothing but your opinion and half truths, you'll get nowhere fast.}}}}}}}



Understood, but similiar deal goes for you. If sarcasm and insults are your way of proving to someone that they are wrong, you're point will be disregarded, and EVEN if you ARE RIGHT....your arguments wouldn't be accepted by some people.

Try to keep that in mind

Originally posted by Lord Urizen



Dude many things in comic books, besides Marvel and DC are either left for intepretation or simply suggested. Not everything is black and white and set in stone like DC tries to make it.

However, I've made that "open your mind" argument numerous times, and obviously it means nothing to you.

So tell ya what......

When I debate with YOU...i will do my best to ONLY speak from what I am ABSOLUTELY 1000%%%%% certain of with the comic book right in front me of to refer to.

Even If i am 99% sure, I won't voice it to YOU.

However, to everyone else, I'll take my chances.

Unless something is stated or shown on panel without being open to interpretation then it isnt canon fact, especially if said point isnt also supported in another official source such as another Marvel title or a bio. The only thing we should be speculating on here are the features of a confrontation and the end result, not anything about the characters roles and power level things which need to be defined on panel.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Again this is disrespectful and unnecessary. I'm not insulting you, nor do I think I ever did. And I won't stoop down to insulting you, I will simply respond my own way.

You set the tone for the proceedings with some remarks in the other thread. Im never the first to initiate.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The only thing that contradict's TOAA's supremecy in Marvel is or WAS the existance of Classic Beyonder.

Thats not entirely true given:

a) the fact that when Thanos claimed he had the supreme beings power in "The End" no connection between HOTU and TOAA was made on panel. LT also confronted Thanos.

b)All we know about TOAA is that it is a power beyond the IG. Many powers have been depicted as being so in Marvel over the years

c) The Phoenix power has been said on numerous occassions to enable a wielder to become the supreme being over creation.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Understood, but similiar deal goes for you. If sarcasm and insults are your way of proving to someone that they are wrong, you're point will be disregarded, and EVEN if you ARE RIGHT....your arguments wouldn't be accepted by some people.

Try to keep that in mind



Oh no. I prove someone wrong with on panel references, occassionally a few scans, mixed together into a coherent argument and always with a sprinkling of finesse.

Sarcasm and insults come in reaction to the like.

http://themot.org/gallery/d/1950-1/GreatPost.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh no. I prove someone wrong with on panel references, occassionally a few scans, mixed together into a coherent argument and always with a sprinkling of finesse.

Sarcasm and insults come in reaction to the like. I wouldn't say this last one is completely true GS

Originally posted by newjak86
I wouldn't say this last one is completely true GS


Neither would I. I don't recall being mean or sarcastic with you until you bombarded me with sarcasm initially.

I hate sarcasm and I would never use it unless it was used against me first.

Reading your posts, it seems more like you were trying to make someone look stupid, rather than seriously debate.




Anways my argument which you call "just my opinion" and "rant" is just as valid as your Infinity VS Infinity argument.


You used an outside source of information that has nothing to actually do with DC or Marvel, and used it to prove your point about HOTU truly being greater in power than the IG.


Did i disregard that ? No....I took it as your way of backing up your point, you HAD to bring that in to make your point. Not only did i READ IT, i CONSIDERED IT, and even referred to that same point in some of my other arguments.

I think that as long as I can back up my opinion, or atleast JUSTIFY my opinion it shouldn't be disregarded as "ranting" and invalid. I wasn't even trying to actually prove something, I was explaining where I stand on that debate, and I think you were totally disrespectful in every post addressed to me.

The only testimony to the fact that the HOTU is greater than the IG was that thanos stated it.

http://themot.org/gallery/d/2150-1/SarcasmAlert.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont try it LU. Lt did hold Phoenix in his hand but nothing was stated about their comparative power level so dont make assumptions based on her landing on his hand to tell him he is no longer needed because shes done his job for him.

Lt says its his wish for Phoenix to not take a host and Phoenix chooses not to with the captions saying that Phoenix CHOSE TO LISTEN TO HIM AT THAT TIME, because she knew no host could safely hold her power for long and she could threaten the multiverse.

With that in mind dont make assumptions, especially totally unsupported ones. The only time the Phoenix and LT's powers have been weighed up directly against each other was in X-men Forever and Eternity stated that the Phoenix power can render someone supreme in creation and he created a depiction of LT bowing before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger. Remember that!!

I love how you seem to use this comment by Eternity so much, GS, and yet it too is simply hearsay. Just because Eternity says it doesn't make it true, much like the LT attributing supreme power to TOAA is also hearsay, no? Moreover, the LT IS above Eternity, which would suggest that it might know a little more of what it is talking about.

Also, just because the LT bowed before the Phoenix enhanced stranger doesn't mean the Phoenix is inherently stronger than the Stranger. The Stranger is also a cosmic being, and I've read sources which say he either once was a part of the LT, or that he was offered the possibility of becoming the fourth face of the LT--so even if we're taking what Eternity CLAIMED as canon (and ignoring all canon facts which support alternative claims), it still could be that the LT and Phoenix are equal, and that it was the inclusion of the Stranger that shifted the balance, no?

In addition, if we're going to nitpick, "Supreme in creation" doesn't necessarily mean the supreme being in the multiverse, at least in this case. Remember that the Phoenix is the force of creation--so supreme in creation could mean supreme in the ability to create, which the Phoenix apparently is. That's not the LT's purpose. His purpose is to maintain, not to create.

One final note--you say that the picture of the Phoenix in the hand of the LT doesn't canonically show that the LT is more powerful, but it certainly suggests it. The differential in size alone is the artist's attempt to show this. Moreover, sure it doesn't say in writing that one is more powerful than the other, but in comics, isn't the drawing almost as important? And sure the Phoenix CHOSE to listen to him--he wasn't forcing it into anything, but he was letting her (i use him for LT and her for Phoenix because it's easier, even tho it might be the wrong pronouns, sorry!) know his wishes. The fact is, the Phoenix was worried that she might endanger the multiverse, and what happens to multiverse-endangering threats? They face the Tribunal.

I think I'm done debating with GS for the most part, cuz he's not even debating with me, he's just trying to "set me straight" lol and its annoying, its like a teacher trying to make a kid "submit" and its rediculous.

However all is fine, let me just clarify TWO things to GS incase he doesn't get this from me:


1) In terms of my reference to Thanos w IG, I abandoned my assumption of its power being multiversal LONG AGO, i accepted your statement that its universal, and stuck with that for my arguments, yet you CONTINUOUSLY brought up the point that i mistakened the IG for a multiversal threat, even after i stopped claiming it.


2) I checked the forum rules, and I broke no rules with my argument. What you were telling me, basically, was to disregard what I know from the INFINITY GAUNTLET saga and THANOS QUEST graphic novel. I simply refused to, because those are the sources of Infinity Gems that I know best, am only familiar with, and feel violates no thread by being brought up.



I have nothing more to say on that topic with you.

lets just be freinds

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Please keep up to speed on current continuity Ill. It will stop you wasting your time with posts like this.

As per current continuity as stated in the bio Jeans physical body was destroyed and a few weeks later (Remember Jean got rid of Here Comes Tomorrow) Jean came back to life again because the Shiar awakened her prematurely and she is now currently in the White Hot Room incubating until her next manifestation.

If you read the latest issue of Uncanny you will see that Rachel is annoyed that her mother hasnt manifested back on Earth again especially when her polar opposite (The First Fallen) has decided to manifest on Earth.

:yawn:

So basically, Jean's just an overhyped M-Body.

She's still been put down per canon.

On the forums in combat the ability to resurrect yourself doesn't account for anything. Death is death, and accounts for a loss.

Wow, I didn't think that when I started this thread that it would turn into all of this.

But it did lol

umm spectre wins

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Neither would I. I don't recall being mean or sarcastic with you until you bombarded me with sarcasm initially.

I hate sarcasm and I would never use it unless it was used against me first.

Reading your posts, it seems more like you were trying to make someone look stupid, rather than seriously debate.




Anways my argument which you call "just my opinion" and "rant" is just as valid as your Infinity VS Infinity argument.


You used an outside source of information that has nothing to actually do with DC or Marvel, and used it to prove your point about HOTU truly being greater in power than the IG.


Did i disregard that ? No....I took it as your way of backing up your point, you HAD to bring that in to make your point. Not only did i READ IT, i CONSIDERED IT, and even referred to that same point in some of my other arguments.

I think that as long as I can back up my opinion, or atleast JUSTIFY my opinion it shouldn't be disregarded as "ranting" and invalid. I wasn't even trying to actually prove something, I was explaining where I stand on that debate, and I think you were totally disrespectful in every post addressed to me.

I have not a clue what outside source of information youre referring to. My Infinity point was actually stated on panel so thats hardly the case my friend. Your opinion in and of itself isnt invalid however if it isnt backed up with canon evidence it is very much irrelevant in a debate.

I responded to your attempt to get smart with me sonny, i even quoted you in the other thread and look how its ended up. Youre now booing about my disrespectful manner. If you didnt mean to come across as you did then thats cool. No worries mate.

Originally posted by harlequin115
I love how you seem to use this comment by Eternity so much, GS, and yet it too is simply hearsay. Just because Eternity says it doesn't make it true, much like the LT attributing supreme power to TOAA is also hearsay, no? Moreover, the LT IS above Eternity, which would suggest that it might know a little more of what it is talking about.

As stated on panel, Eternity spoke to Jean as a representative of the council of fundamental forces, the council that was both stated and depicted to include LT. Eternitys comments and visualisations therefore were the fears and concerns of the council which he represented and had just convened with prior to speaking to Jean.

Originally posted by harlequin115
Also, just because the LT bowed before the Phoenix enhanced stranger doesn't mean the Phoenix is inherently stronger than the Stranger.

I take it you meant stronger than LT here.

Originally posted by harlequin115
The Stranger is also a cosmic being, and I've read sources which say he either once was a part of the LT, or that he was offered the possibility of becoming the fourth face of the LT--so even if we're taking what Eternity CLAIMED as canon (and ignoring all canon facts which support alternative claims), it still could be that the LT and Phoenix are equal, and that it was the inclusion of the Stranger that shifted the balance, no?

Stranger being the fourth face of LT is something that was alluded to and is certainly not canon, so strike that one. Death also commented on the Phoenix power being the only true legitimate threat to the fabric of reality theres been (up to that point) even depicting the Infinity Gauntlet to Jean, a power LT agreed (in Infinity Watch#1) he didnt know how his own power measured up against. On top of that Eternity said that the replacement of the abstracts and LT happens as a part of the natural creation life cycle and was something the fundamental forces accepted. The Stranger isnt a component necessary for this process, he is a force in the natural scheme of things that is a "victim" of it. Hence his desire to tap into the power to protect himself from the process, whilst the others were consumed by it. With that in mind, no not really mate. The Phoenix does it regardless according to the fundamental forces.

Originally posted by harlequin115
In addition, if we're going to nitpick, "Supreme in creation" doesn't necessarily mean the supreme being in the multiverse, at least in this case. Remember that the Phoenix is the force of creation--so supreme in creation could mean supreme in the ability to create, which the Phoenix apparently is. That's not the LT's purpose. His purpose is to maintain, not to create.

That was my wording and even so thats a ridiculous assessment. Being the supreme power in creation meaning being supreme at creating? Come on now.

It doesnt really matter who is actually more powerful. The crux of the matter is that the Phoenix power is the only constant in creation, it replaces the abstracts cycle after cycle and its power can be used to humble LT. Whether you think thats insufficent or not to claim Phoenix is more powerful or not is irrelevant as its all that matters when it comes to versus matches.


Originally posted by harlequin115
One final note--you say that the picture of the Phoenix in the hand of the LT doesn't canonically show that the LT is more powerful, but it certainly suggests it. The differential in size alone is the artist's attempt to show this. Moreover, sure it doesn't say in writing that one is more powerful than the other, but in comics, isn't the drawing almost as important? And sure the Phoenix CHOSE to listen to him--he wasn't forcing it into anything, but he was letting her (i use him for LT and her for Phoenix because it's easier, even tho it might be the wrong pronouns, sorry!) know his wishes. The fact is, the Phoenix was worried that she might endanger the multiverse, and what happens to multiverse-endangering threats? They face the Tribunal.

Youre quite correct, the size differential doesnt canonically show LT is more powerful and all that counts. Phoenix flew into his hand and told him her actions meant his involvement in the situation was no longer required. He told her his wishes and she CHOSE to listen to him for the time being as stated because he knew he was right, thats all, nothing else. She knows her power in the hands of a mortal could threaten the multiverse. Nothing conclusive can be read out of that scenes artistic depiction alone about their comparative power, especially when its made clear that Phoenix doesnt see LTs judgement as beyond reproach,(as per the abstracts) but something to abide by if she agrees with it.

Thats all.

Originally posted by illadelph12
:yawn:

So basically, Jean's just an overhyped M-Body.

She's still been put down per canon.

By canon she can make herself beyond physical harm and as stated is ultimately totally indestructible. By canon she had work to do and when Xorn destroyed her physical body she didnt keep herself alive as is within her ability to do so she allowed herself to die and then re-manifested a few weeks later because the Shiar awakened her early.

Originally posted by illadelph12
On the forums in combat the ability to resurrect yourself doesn't account for anything. Death is death, and accounts for a loss.

If Jean doesnt want to die then she will not die. As shown on panel she can alter her durability, as stated on panel and in bios she is ultimately completely indestructible in essence. Destroying her physical body would just release the Phoenix consciousness, its the equivalent of stripping away her outer shell. Jean is Phoenix she cant die. Your point is redundant.

I still love ya Ill.

I have not a clue what outside source of information youre referring to. My Infinity point was actually stated on panel so thats hardly the case my friend. Your opinion in and of itself isnt invalid however if it isnt backed up with canon evidence it is very much irrelevant in a debate.

I responded to your attempt to get smart with me sonny, i even quoted you in the other thread and look how its ended up. Youre now booing about my disrespectful manner. If you didnt mean to come across as you did then thats cool. No worries mate.




In the future, I will make sure I address you and everyone with respect, making sure that I do not SOUND sarcastic or smartass. I never mean to do so, I think its a misintepretation of words.


No problems then

why do LT and Spectre threads always go into freaking Pheonix threads?

LOL because people still debate about whose higher in power between Living Tribunal and Pheonix Force

dude me and GS already told everyone how much of a punk the LT is he cant do nothing to the PF he dont even know if he can beat the IG, he's a total loser he's the living jobber the greatest jobber of all perhaps even greater then darkseid although darkseid had feats to back up his coolness while the LT has no feats to back up his so called omnipatence he's a chicken trust me he cant even beat korvac who was stronger then eternity he tried and failed then said something about i got other things to do and ran away like a chump and let everyone die dont believe me read what if korvac made avengers his pawn or something like that and yes its canon any appereance of the LT is canon since there is only ONE LT and no others like other eternities there are more then one eternities and galactusi, and even more infinities, and more IG's maybe but there is only ONE LT which is sad since he's nothing special spectre would womp his butt badly hell even mister Myx might beat him depending on his full power Myx i mean.

Mider:


1) Whose Mr. Myx ? I keep trying to look him up, but i can never find enough info on him


2) Hey bro, don't get all worked up. I don't care about LT either...i mean he seems like a pretty cool character to me, but I'm not crazy about him, He's a FLAT character in my opinion, and a pretty cheesy 1 at times.

The whole Korvac story seemed to useless and almost verged on humor ....a spoiled brat with long hair gets enough power to challenge LT,,wow....it was so pointless, and then in that same issue they had LT banish current Beyonder to a secluded universe....

meanwhile, Classic Beyonder would have kicked LT's ass over and over.

If i knew enough about Spectre' , I would probably agree he'd beat Lt.

But the thing is we don't konow Lt's true power, and its not his fault. It's the writers who choose to do what with him.



For example, i really do like Darkseid, not as much as Thanos, but DS is a really interesting character, but the writers SUBMIT to Superman fanboys and make DS lose all the time to him, which is sooo cheesy and such a rip off




LT may be victim of the same PIS

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Mider:


1) Whose Mr. Myx ? I keep trying to look him up, but i can never find enough info on him


2) Hey bro, don't get all worked up. I don't care about LT either...i mean he seems like a pretty cool character to me, but I'm not crazy about him, He's a FLAT character in my opinion, and a pretty cheesy 1 at times.

The whole Korvac story seemed to useless and almost verged on humor ....a spoiled brat with long hair gets enough power to challenge LT,,wow....it was so pointless, and then in that same issue they had LT banish current Beyonder to a secluded universe....

meanwhile, Classic Beyonder would have kicked LT's ass over and over.

If i knew enough about Spectre' , I would probably agree he'd beat Lt.

But the thing is we don't konow Lt's true power, and its not his fault. It's the writers who choose to do what with him.



For example, i really do like Darkseid, not as much as Thanos, but DS is a really interesting character, but the writers SUBMIT to Superman fanboys and make DS lose all the time to him, which is sooo cheesy and such a rip off




LT may be victim of the same PIS

Mr. Mxyzptlk as in the fifth dimensional imp. He has godly magical powers and is really above anything in our 4th dimensional world. He sets rules for himself in the 4d world and such. He can't come in his true form cause it's too overwhelming for mere mortals to see or some bs like that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By canon she can make herself beyond physical harm and as stated is ultimately totally indestructible. By canon she had work to do and when Xorn destroyed her physical body she didnt keep herself alive as is within her ability to do so she allowed herself to die and then re-manifested a few weeks later because the Shiar awakened her early.



If Jean doesnt want to die then she will not die. As shown on panel she can alter her durability, as stated on panel and in bios she is ultimately completely indestructible in essence. Destroying her physical body would just release the Phoenix consciousness, its the equivalent of stripping away her outer shell. Jean is Phoenix she cant die. Your point is redundant.

I still love ya Ill.



616 Jean is simply an M-Body for Phoenix. There are other Jean's with no Phoenix connection whatsoever in the Multiverse (example: AoA Jean).

Look up the abstract "Anamoly" GS. What Phoenix can do with the Jean M-Body is nothing special, or unique, to her.

And also quit deluding Mider.

edit:

For your arguement that it's stated in her bio that she can render herself invulnerable/invincible is immaterial, she's died. The same was said of Apocalypse and we see where that always leads.

Mammon Wins

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2732/66rl.png

Mr. Mxyzptlk as in the fifth dimensional imp. He has godly magical powers and is really above anything in our 4th dimensional world. He sets rules for himself in the 4d world and such. He can't come in his true form cause it's too overwhelming for mere mortals to see or some bs like that.

thats funny batdude

Honestly Milkie,


I think Mammon could SOMEHOW get the better of Spectre or Living Tribunal. He is quite the MANIPULATOR, a powerhouse in his own right, and has major jurisdiction in Hell...and IMAGE's Hell seems a lot greater than DC and Marvel's versions of Hell

Originally posted by illadelph12


616 Jean is simply an M-Body for Phoenix. There are other Jean's with no Phoenix connection whatsoever in the Multiverse (example: AoA Jean).

Redundant point. AOA Jean DOES have a Phoenix connection as you would have found out if you'd bothered to pick up the AOA revisit released this time last year.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Look up the abstract "Anamoly" GS. What Phoenix can do with the Jean M-Body is nothing special, or unique, to her.

Oooooo someones branching out in an attempt to take me down.

Not gonna happen.

Anomaly is an abstract entity, it embodies a universal concept and as such its existence is dependent on the existence of the universe its connected with. Phoenix is the force that brings reality into existence big difference.


Originally posted by illadelph12
And also quit deluding Mider.

If Mider chooses to agree with my posts then thats his choice to do so all power to him.

Originally posted by illadelph12
For your arguement that it's stated in her bio that she can render herself invulnerable/invincible is immaterial, she's died. The same was said of Apocalypse and we see where that always leads.

Another lame point. Its stated in her bio she can do so and her "death" never contradicted this, her "death" occurred despite the fact that she can do so, she opted not to do so. With that in mind the point still stands. Its an ability thats employable by her so it can very much be used in a versus match. The Phoenix Force cannot die, it is totally indestructible in essence and can render its physical body to be so as well. The destruction of its physical body does not equate to a death if the Phoenix is still around and can carry on the fight. As aforementioned its like stripping away an outer shell. The same may have been said of Apocalypse but such claims have not been supported on panel in any of his appearances, therefore they can be dismissed as hyperbole. Similarly his bio does NOT reflect such comments you claim to have seen. Sorry son.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Another lame point. Its stated in her bio she can do so and her "death" never contradicted this, her "death" occurred despite the fact that she can do so, she opted not to do so. With that in mind the point still stands. Its an ability thats employable by her so it can very much be used in a versus match. The Phoenix Force cannot die, it is totally indestructible in essence and can render its physical body to be so as well. The destruction of its physical body does not equate to a death if the Phoenix is still around and can carry on the fight. As aforementioned its like stripping away an outer shell. The same may have been said of Apocalypse but such claims have not been supported on panel in any of his appearances, therefore they can be dismissed as hyperbole. Similarly his bio does NOT reflect such comments you claim to have seen. Sorry son.

You just proved my point GS.

She died, and it's canon. No bio disuades that fact. She can be defeated on this forum because she has died per canon material, regardless of whether or not the death is/was permanent, she can and has been killed, which means she can be defeated. These aren't marathons, they are 1 on 1 battles. Once Jean falls, there's no ressurecting and continuing the fight (same goes for Doomsday and Apocalypse).

She wears a glass crown, and she's not infallable. Her own continuity proves this fact.

She's dead, and she was murdered.

She (The M-Body Jean Grey) has never been displayed as invincible or indestructible per canon materials, so your argument for her bio stating that fact is immaterial and baseless. The Phoenix Force is eternal, the Jean M-Body manifestation is not. The Phoenix could choose not to take physical form in the 616 plane and there'd be no Jean.

And you also need to do your homework on Anamoly. It's not simply universal. It can manifest in any plane. It embodies the opposite of all that is.

Originally posted by illadelph12
You just proved my point GS.

She died, and it's canon. No bio disuades that fact. She can be defeated on this forum because she has died per canon material, regardless of whether or not the death is/was permanent, she can and has been killed, which means she can be defeated. These aren't marathons, they are 1 on 1 battles. Once Jean falls, there's no ressurecting and continuing the fight (same goes for Doomsday and Apocalypse).

She wears a glass crown, and she's not infallable. Her own continuity proves this fact.

She's dead, and she was murdered.

She (The M-Body Jean Grey) has never been displayed as invincible or indestructible per canon materials, so your argument for her bio stating that fact is immaterial and baseless. The Phoenix Force is eternal, the Jean M-Body manifestation is not. The Phoenix could choose not to take physical form in the 616 plane and there'd be no Jean.

Good try, but still no good.

Jean can and has bolstered her durability on panel to survive assaults far more potent than the one your argument centres on, therefore your argument is as ever redundant. Jean is Phoenix, they are the same thing, as per canon it cannot die. It can render its physical body indestructible, however if it doesnt and its body is destroyed then no matter, Phoenix is still around in its totally indestructible essence. Stripping away its outer shell does not equate to a death, let alone a win. Hulk and the heroes destroying Onslaughts physical body did NOT result in the death of Onslaught it resulted in his transition to another state. He never went anywhere, he was still there to fight on.

When Phoenix destroyed her own body at the end of the DP Saga as stated and depicted in Classic X-men 43 she was still there on the moon in her energy form and she watched Scott mourn knowing it was for the best. If you would like scans then you know i would be more than happy to provide.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And you also need to do your homework on Anamoly. It's not simply universal. It can manifest in any plane. It embodies the opposite of all that is.

Nope Anomaly is a universal abstract that embodies the opposite of all that is within 616. Manifesting on any plane does NOT equate to multiversal. On top of that how do you know the bio you've read wasnt referring to different planes of existence within 616? Please read some Quasar and stop relying on website summaries. You'll only come away with a most sparse understanding. Its cool tho. U got any questions dont hesitate to ask. Until then back to the drawing board.

Thats all.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Good try, but still no good.

Jean can and has bolstered her durability on panel to survive assaults far more potent than the one your argument centres on, therefore your argument is as ever redundant. Jean is Phoenix, they are the same thing, as per canon it cannot die. It can render its physical body indestructible, however if it doesnt and its body is destroyed then no matter, Phoenix is still around in its totally indestructible essence. Stripping away its outer shell does not equate to a death, let alone a win. Hulk and the heroes destroying Onslaughts physical body did NOT result in the death of Onslaught it resulted in his transition to another state. He never went anywhere, he was still there to fight on.

When Phoenix destroyed her own body at the end of the DP Saga as stated and depicted in Classic X-men 43 she was still there on the moon in her energy form and she watched Scott mourn knowing it was for the best. If you would like scans then you know i would be more than happy to provide.



Nope Anomaly is a universal abstract that embodies the opposite of all that is within 616. Manifesting on any plane does NOT equate to multiversal. On top of that how do you know the bio you've read wasnt referring to different planes of existence within 616? Please read some Quasar and stop relying on website summaries. You'll only come away with a most sparse understanding. Its cool tho. U got any questions dont hesitate to ask. Until then back to the drawing board.

Thats all.

Wrong.

The premise of my argument is that Jean, the M-Body, has been killed and is vulnerable, which has been conclusively proven on panel in canon material.

All your essays are meaningless GS. They can not dispell this fact.

Given that the possibility already exists for the Phoenix's M-Body to die, and the Jean manifestation has been proven to be fallable on numerous occasions, a fight against a being like Mad Jim Jaspers or Scarlet Witch, each of which can effect the probability of Jean enacting one of her well documented brain farts that result in her premature return to the Phoenix egg, results in Jean losing.

Nothing you say changes the fact that it's already been proven, by canon continuity, to be a possible outcome.

Until you can show that Jean has never been rendered deceased and needed to resurrect herself, your argument is meaningless here on these boards.

In the comics, where plots are the norm, Jean's resurrection abilities hold more weight.

Here, one kill equals a win, and it's been proven she can be killed, she simply can come back.

Glass crown.

And your "canon evidence" argument has now opened up a new hole in the propaganda you've been spewing forth these last few months. Per canon, Jean is vulnerable, you just have to have the right tools.

You never should have let Whirly and the others get to you.

Sad.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Wrong.

The premise of my argument is that Jean, the M-Body, has been killed and is vulnerable, which has been conclusively proven on panel in canon material.

All your essays are meaningless GS. They can not dispell this fact.

Given that the possibility already exists for the Phoenix's M-Body to die, and the Jean manifestation has been proven to be fallable on numerous occasions, a fight against a being like Mad Jim Jaspers or Scarlet Witch, each of which can effect the probability of Jean enacting one of her well documented brain farts that result in her premature return to the Phoenix egg, results in Jean losing.

Nothing you say changes the fact that it's already been proven, by canon continuity, to be a possible outcome.

Until you can show that Jean has never been rendered deceased and needed to resurrect herself, your argument is meaningless here on these boards.

In the comics, where plots are the norm, Jean's resurrection abilities hold more weight.

Here, one kill equals a win, and it's been proven she can be killed, she simply can come back.

Glass crown.

And your "canon evidence" argument has now opened up a new hole in the propaganda you've been spewing forth these last few months. Per canon, Jean is vulnerable, you just have to have the right tools.

You never should have let Whirly and the others get to you.

Sad.

As ever a most redundant post. None of your points conclusively dismiss any of my argument. Again and again you just restate your opinion which is very much unsupported on panel. You keep trying to convince yourself and any readers you pray will read your contributions that you actually have a point whilst failing to actually present a vaild and supported one.

You say the premise of the argument is that Jean has been killed and is vulnerable based on the fact that her physical body was destroyed by by Xorn and she was manipulated by Mastermind. Given that its been shown on panel that Jean can take far more damage than that which Xorneto inflicted on her that instance is irrelevant. Given that its stated on panel that Jean depowered herself after saving existence from the crystal , therefore making herself vulnerable to the subsequent manipulation (as stated on panel and in the bio) that Mastermind instance is also irrelevant.

When u take into consideration its within Phoenixes abilities (as supported on panel) to alter her durability to any level she desires and that as stated the Phoenix Force is ultimately completely indestructible your argument is unfortunately for you completely without merit im sorry to say.

The Phoenix essence is Jean. Phoenix derives from beyond reality as per the comics and bios. Son its official!! It isnt something a reality warper power has any jurisdiction over. As stated and shown on panel the destruction of Jeans physical body doesnt result in the death of Jean/Phoenix. Therefore it wouldnt equate to a win. When Phoenix destroyed her physical body in the DP Saga she was there on the moon watching Cyclops mourn before flying to the White Hot Room as stated in Classic X-men 43 Story 2. As such your whole argument is in tatters. Jean/Phoenix doesnt die, she cannot die. If she chooses not to render her body indestructible, (which she can do as supported by her appearances and stated in her bio) her body can be destroyed however she will still be there to fight in energy form. Illogical and most faulty argument. Try again when its refurbished.

i say its a stand sitll

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As ever a most redundant post. None of your points conclusively dismiss any of my argument. Again and again you just restate your opinion which is very much unsupported on panel. You keep trying to convince yourself and any readers you pray will read your contributions that you actually have a point whilst failing to actually present a vaild and supported one.

You say the premise of the argument is that Jean has been killed and is vulnerable based on the fact that her physical body was destroyed by by Xorn and she was manipulated by Mastermind. Given that its been shown on panel that Jean can take far more damage than that which Xorneto inflicted on her that instance is irrelevant. Given that its stated on panel that Jean depowered herself after saving existence from the crystal , therefore making herself vulnerable to the subsequent manipulation (as stated on panel and in the bio) that Mastermind instance is also irrelevant.

When u take into consideration its within Phoenixes abilities (as supported on panel) to alter her durability to any level she desires and that as stated the Phoenix Force is ultimately completely indestructible your argument is unfortunately for you completely without merit im sorry to say.

The Phoenix essence is Jean. Phoenix derives from beyond reality as per the comics and bios. Son its official!! It isnt something a reality warper power has any jurisdiction over. As stated and shown on panel the destruction of Jeans physical body doesnt result in the death of Jean/Phoenix. Therefore it wouldnt equate to a win. When Phoenix destroyed her physical body in the DP Saga she was there on the moon watching Cyclops mourn before flying to the White Hot Room as stated in Classic X-men 43 Story 2. As such your whole argument is in tatters. Jean/Phoenix doesnt die, she cannot die. If she chooses not to render her body indestructible, (which she can do as supported by her appearances and stated in her bio) her body can be destroyed however she will still be there to fight in energy form. Illogical and most faulty argument. Try again when its refurbished.

GS, answer me this.

No essays.

No double talk.

No unnecessary verbose.

A simple yes or no answer.

Has Jean, per canon, died, in Marvel continuity?

Has Jean, per canon, been manipulated psionically in Marvel continuity?

We both know the answer is yes, therefore my argument is not only sound, but makes all your numerous essays and, for lack of a better term, sermons, on the Phoenix/Jean connection, pointless.

You allowed whirly to talk you into a tactical bind.

All of your "on panel, canon evidence" and quotes from bios doesn't change the fact that Phoenix has been killed, and has been manipulated.

The Phoenix Force even had a portion of it's power stolen by a sorceror long before Jean was even conceived.

I grant you that the Phoenix Force is the sum and substance of the Marvel Multiverse. I've argued that point along side you in other threads.

What you fail to acknowledge is that Jean, the Phoenix M-Body, can, and has, been killed.

You can't deny that fact.

The reason it seems redundant is because I'm trying to beat into your brain, my friend, that there is a glaring hole in your argument of unabashed Jean/Phoenix superiority.

Unlike many other posters on this board, your grandiose essays and "Shock and Awe" scan attacks won't pummel me into submission.

By your own reasoning of on panel, canon occurances being paramount, Jean Grey, the M-Body of the Phoenix Force, can die.

Stop being a hypocrite, GS.

You're better than that.

You even stooped so low as to pull the "PIS" card.

Per canon, Jean can die.

Oh, and just so there's clarity (in case someone's actually following this):

My argument is that since per canon continuity Jean has been shown to be both fallable and capable of being killed, a character that can manipulate causality, probability, and possibility (i.e. Mad Jim Jaspers, Scarlet Witch, Jamie Braddock, etc.) could defeat her because it's already an established canon fact that Jean can be killed and manipulated, thereby giving evidence of her being susceptible to possibility, probability, and causality.

It's a possibility, and they manipulate and control probability, therefore making Jean's already occuring death a a possible recurring outcome.

Once something has been proven to be possible, it can re-occur given the proper variables and resources.

Perfectly logical argument.

Wow the argument between GS and Illadelph is awesome !

What does it have to do with Living Tribunal or Spectre though ?

LOL

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Mr. Mxyzptlk as in the fifth dimensional imp. He has godly magical powers and is really above anything in our 4th dimensional world. He sets rules for himself in the 4d world and such. He can't come in his true form cause it's too overwhelming for mere mortals to see or some bs like that.




Not only that, but Mxy is actually stronger than the beings we've seen from even higher dimensions than him as well, and also, he seems more powerful than all the other imps and genies from the 5th dimension as well.

Could Mr.Myx be overpowered by the Spectre though ?

yeah when joker got his powers he put spectre in a place where if he tried to escape the universe would be hurt, thats the only reason im guessing spectre couldnt leave, beyond that he's womped beings from the fifth dimension as if they where jokes, and he did mess up the multiverse or universe so much that the imps lost there powers or where.

Oh Ok......Spectre probly takes this, but I'm still unsure.

Originally posted by illadelph12
GS, answer me this.

No essays.

No double talk.

No unnecessary verbose.

A simple yes or no answer.

Has Jean, per canon, died, in Marvel continuity?

Has Jean, per canon, been manipulated psionically in Marvel continuity?

We both know the answer is yes, therefore my argument is not only sound, but makes all your numerous essays and, for lack of a better term, sermons, on the Phoenix/Jean connection, pointless.

You allowed whirly to talk you into a tactical bind.

All of your "on panel, canon evidence" and quotes from bios doesn't change the fact that Phoenix has been killed, and has been manipulated.

This is no argument Illadelph, this is you stating your opinion time and time again regardless. You like to cite over and over again the importance of canon events to your argument and yet not only have you made it abundantly clear that your grasp of what exactly is canon is somewhat lacking, but your failure to also take into consideration the variety of canon instances which totally contradict your argument makes for a far from credible perspective.

Since it was revealed that Jean is the Phoenix Force made flesh as opposed to being a host for the power that means that Jean Grey has never died in the conventional sense because as Phoenix she can never truly die. According to canon Jean Grey is NOT dead she is currently in the White Hot Room where she will stay until her next manifestation. Rachel was annoyed in Uncanny last week that her mother had chosen not to manifest at that point in time when her polar opposite the Fallen was making plans to do so.

Iceman having his body shattered into a million pieces does not count as a win as per forum rules because it is within his power to reform and carrying on fighting. The heroes shattering Onslaughts physical form did not equate to a death because it merely unleashed his consciousness.

By current continuity not once has Phoenix died because according to canon she cannot die. She can have her physical form destroyed but she will remain in energy form and can manifest again, she can keep her body alive or she can simply make herself invulnerable to physical harm.

Your argument is faulty because it revolves around Masterminds manipulation and Xornetos destruction of Phoenixes physical body. Given that its stated on panel and in the bios that Jean had depowered herself and therefore made herself vulnerable the Mastermind reference is irrelevant given that Jean isnt going to choose to similarly depower in a battle situation. Given that Jean has brushed off far worse than Xornetos attacks before because she had chosen to bolster her durability and given that she has kept herself alive before and since that instance after having chosen not to enhance her durability and yet she still decided to keep herself alive means that your Xorneto reference is irrelevant as by canon events and depictions it is well within Phoenixes ability to protect herself from harm.

Originally posted by illadelph12
The Phoenix Force even had a portion of it's power stolen by a sorceror long before Jean was even conceived.

Phoenix bonded a part of itself to Feron a part which Necrom tore out and decided to use for himself. Whats that gotta do with anything?

You seem to have forgotten the scans i showed you a few weeks back Ill. The Jean form was taken on by Phoenix in the previous multiverse so thats not exactly true.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I grant you that the Phoenix Force is the sum and substance of the Marvel Multiverse. I've argued that point along side you in other threads.

What you fail to acknowledge is that Jean, the Phoenix M-Body, can, and has, been killed.

You can't deny that fact.

What you fail to acknowledge is that there are a variety of canon instances where Jean has enhanced herself and withstood more damage than that which destroyed her body. Why? Because it was her wish to do so. Therefore in a battle scenario on these forums she will choose to do so as she done on panel to withstand far greater forces than the Xorneto incident. Finally, please acknowledge that Jean has never been killed in the conventional sense as she is Phoenix and according to all sources Phoenix cant truly die.

Originally posted by illadelph12
The reason it seems redundant is because I'm trying to beat into your brain, my friend, that there is a glaring hole in your argument of unabashed Jean/Phoenix superiority.

Unlike many other posters on this board, your grandiose essays and "Shock and Awe" scan attacks won't pummel me into submission.

The reason it seems redundant is because your argument has more holes in it than a tramps sneakers.

All your canon instances with reference to Jean/Phoenix are outweighed by other canon instances which explain them away, some even with direct reference. Please acknowledge that so as to at least make your argument credible.

Originally posted by illadelph12
By your own reasoning of on panel, canon occurances being paramount, Jean Grey, the M-Body of the Phoenix Force, can die.

Stop being a hypocrite, GS.

You're better than that.

You even stooped so low as to pull the "PIS" card.

Per canon, Jean can die.



Stating she "died" therefore shes vulnerable over and over again without taking into consideration the aforementioned canon incidents is just straight up poor debating. For one who apparently thinks so highly of themselves youre verging steadfast into Leonheart territory there bro.

Id like to think youre better than this, really i would.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Oh, and just so there's clarity (in case someone's actually following this):

My argument is that since per canon continuity Jean has been shown to be both fallable and capable of being killed, a character that can manipulate causality, probability, and possibility (i.e. Mad Jim Jaspers, Scarlet Witch, Jamie Braddock, etc.) could defeat her because it's already an established canon fact that Jean can be killed and manipulated, thereby giving evidence of her being susceptible to possibility, probability, and causality.

It's a possibility, and they manipulate and control probability, therefore making Jean's already occuring death a a possible recurring outcome.

Once something has been proven to be possible, it can re-occur given the proper variables and resources.

Perfectly logical argument.

Your argument would be sound if there wasnt also canon instances which show that if Jean chooses to place herself above harm (as she would choose to do so in a battle situation on this forum) then she will not be harmed. If she chooses not to let her physical shell die then it will not die.

All the while youre here jumping to conclusions making assumptions about what these reality warpers can do based on their power set without actually considering to what scale each of them has been shown to be able to manipulate reality. Youre getting caught up in fantasy my friend, your argument is very much up in the clouds for the sake of common sense and reason please ground it.

The only one of the three who has conclusively been shown to be able to consciously warp reality on a scale that might give Phoenix pause for thought is Jim Jaspers.

Do you know who took him out my friend? The Fury.

Do you know how?

He took him to the void between dimensions therefore leaving Jaspers the reality warper with nothing to work with. He then proceeded to fry the muthas brains out.

Phoenix versus any of these mutants would triumph. It is her power that brings about reality, that gives them something to manipulate. She can possess any power she chooses and wield any energy in any amount. She can outdo them at any turn and they would not be able to get rid of her. She is the life force of reality she is infused in all. Destruction of her physical shell (if she allowed it ) would be irrelevant as she is in everything she would just keep on coming. Alternatively she could do a Fury.

An enjoyable post, GS. Keep up the good work!

Originally posted by Tshern
An enjoyable post, GS. Keep up the good work!

Youre too kind bro!

Heh, Phoenix is fairly unknown to me due to the huge difficulties of acquiring certain comics here in Finland, and I appreciate people who write posts which teach me stuff about the topics that are unavailable for me. It's always nice to read your Phoenix posts, I've enjoyed all the debates where you have brought in T3H Phoenix knowledge.

GS, GS, GS...

For all your essays, you are still missing my point.

I'll put in plain English so that you can grasp it my friend:

A probability manipulator can defeat Jean because per canon, she's been shown to be fallable, to be "killed" (resurrection not withstanding), and to make mistakes.

Period.

That's the crux of my argument, which you keep dodging.

Jean is vulnerable to possibility, and a character that can control possibility has a chance against her, because it's been shown that the possibility of her defeat, self imposed or otherwise, is a canon possibility.

To quote Jessica Care Moore:

"Just because no one understands the words that you speak/
Doesn't necessarily mean that what your saying is deep."

I'm not shying away from your essay assault. Nothing you've said changes the fact Jean's vulnerable to possibility. Her very ability of choice shows her being within the bounds of the concepts of probability and causality.

You are aware that 616 Jaspers is alive and merged with the Fury, right?

spectre turns 20 million miles tall and then shows up to fight LT saying LIVING JOBBE WHAT I JUST STEPED ON SOMETHING EWWWW IT LOOKS LIKE A BUG WITH THREE FACES.

Originally posted by illadelph12
You are aware that 616 Jaspers is alive and merged with the Fury, right?

Of course i am. Yet what does that have to with anything?

Doesnt change the fact that he like all reality warpers have an easily expoitable weakness or the fact that nothing they can do can destroy the Phoenix, nothing they do cant be undone.

ANYWAY, back to the Spectre vs. Living Tribunal.

Originally posted by Mider
spectre turns 20 million miles tall and then shows up to fight LT saying LIVING JOBBE WHAT I JUST STEPED ON SOMETHING EWWWW IT LOOKS LIKE A BUG WITH THREE FACES.

it sounds outragous but this probably could happen if spectre chose or he could just turn into a million spectres and overwelm the LT like he aint never been overwelmed in his life.

LOL people are still debating this ?

GS still defending the Pheonix from losing ?

WHATS HAPPENING TO THIS WORLD !!?!?!?!?

None of the probabilities Jaspers brought to bear could easily take out the Fury. Eventually Jaspers got manhandled and eventually dealt with:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14414022535.gif&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14414035727.gif&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14414052132.gif&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14414064019.gif&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/14414084181.gif&s=f5

As ive said before and i'll say again, a character being a reality warper doesnt mean you can assume they can materialise absolutely any possibility. Wanda for example taps into outside forces and uses these to shape reality and she herself has stated on panel her limits (warping the planet). Jaspers similarly never displayed any overly impressive personal feats. His reality warp spun out of control and threatened to consume all reality. A potential possibility that while impressive in terms of destruction certainly wasnt (and wouldnt be) something fuelled and maintained directly by himself. You might blab on about such an effect being a possibility and as per his mutant power something he could materialise but it doesnt work like that. It wouldnt be something he could just materialise out of thin air, thats assumption, not anything based on on panel events. Instead it would be something he eventually could bring about again through the materialisation of other possibilities down the scale. The same with Wanda and the chaos wave.

They are both human and they have both shown limits. They are limited most importantly by their imaginations and knowledge. That is a limitation that would forever prevent them from gaining victory over many a high level cosmic being let alone the Phoenix.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
LOL people are still debating this ?

GS still defending the Pheonix from losing ?

WHATS HAPPENING TO THIS WORLD !!?!?!?!?

Im a bit behind cos ive just got a new job so i cant come on as often as i used to, so you'd do well to make the most of my time. Learn from boy i have many a word of wisdom to preach.

Galactic Storm....how do you think Dark Pheonix will be portrayed in the new X Men movie?

Do you think they will keep her as the cosmic powerhouse that she is, or do u thnk thier gonna BS us by severely depowering her ?

Ne ways I think Pheonix would beat any reality warper that comes from any of the MArvel Universes simply because thier POWER to warp reality will only be PART of the universal energy force that essentially belongs to Pheonix.

If Pheonix is the CREATION FORCE than all energy and power owes it roots to her, therefore she has jurisdiction over anyone who uses HER universe's energy to warp reality.



It would have to be a MAJOR reality warper like CLASSIC BEYONDER to beat her, because he can simply RE WRITE her story and do whatever he wants to her.

in the movie Pheonix is not a entity but just jean grays split personality with out holding back having almost unlimited power she is a class five mutant even stronger then mags

bump

bump.

Spectre

living tribunal.

SPECTRE!!!

LIVING TRIBUNAL!!!!111

they stalemate I think

actually I think Spectre will win since I like his green capehood thing

SPECTRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111234!@#
$!#@!$

I'd go with LT.