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Force and lightsaber battle. WHo wins?

Revan wins. Kyle is, at the most, even with Yoda (for the record I don't that he is as strong as Yoda). Revan is stronger than Yoda.

That he is, but not by an overwhelming margin.

But I'd be hard pressed to put Kyle on even terms with Yoda, so he'd lose to Revan.

Kyle is the most skilled with a saber in the NJO but i say Revan takes it .

Kyle is the most skilled? Oh shucks, you must be forgetting Luke then..

A No, Kyle equals Lukes saber skills, And do you know nothing of the NJO he is the foremost battlemaster. Ive read everything i can on Kyle and in many places its stated that kyles power rivels lukes and equals or surpasses lukes saber skills

Research it

Despite being almost completely self-trained, Kyle became one of the New Jedi Order's most respected and powerful Jedi Masters. With relatively little lightsaber combat training, Kyle defeated seven trained Dark Jedi: Boc, Gorc, Pic, Maw, Sariss, Yun, and then Jerec himself - an amazing accomplishment for someone of his status of training. Kyle again showed great skill defeating the Dark Jedi Desann, a Dark Jedi with power that matched that of Luke Skywalker. It is believed that his raw power was increased to rival that of Luke Skywalker's when Katarn visited the Valley of the Jedi after first encountering Desaan. Kyle also showed a strong will, resisting the many taunts and mind tricks Desann used on him in the Yavin temple. During the events of The Disiples of Ragnos, Kyle had already become the strongest swordsman in the New Jedi Order, and successfully trained one of the youngest and unarguably most famous Jedi Knight during these events, Jaden Korr.

While Kyle's fighting style may be a fighting style created by the New Jedi Order, it's also possible that it is a personal style. If the player chooses the Dark Side in the computer game, Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, Kyle uses many Force techniques, such as Force pulling the charcters lightsaber away during a battle, as well as many physical attacks such as putting his lightsaber away, grabbing the character with one hand, and punching them with the other. However, it should be noted that Kyle did learn many techniques from the spirits of Qu Rahn and the ancient Jedi Tal in the Valley of the Jedi such as the Flowing Water cut and the Falling Leaf attack.

During the events led by Desann, Kyle showed a great mastery of the Force by relearning powers of both the Light and Dark Side of the Force in a relatively short amount of time. His general mastery of the Force was incredible and surpassed all but a few of only the strongest Jedi Masters such as Luke Skywalker. Despite being a Jedi Master on the Council, Kyle Katarn can be considered to be something of a Grey Jedi.

Wasn't Kyp Durron better than Kyle Katarn?

Originally posted by Darth Katarn
A No, Kyle equals Lukes saber skills, And do you know nothing of the NJO he is the foremost battlemaster. Ive read everything i can on Kyle and in many places its stated that kyles power rivels lukes and equals or surpasses lukes saber skills

Research it


Really? LOL... I don't suppose a "you're dead wrong" response would solve anything as you're completely confused. Kyle is nowhere near Luke in anything, if anybody is 2nd to Luke it is Kyp. Good try. Show me anythng that says Kyle remotely rivals Luke in anything.. Oh wait, it doesn't exist.

Darth Katarn if you got that from wikipedia, then you are using a non-canon source. Wikipedia has a mixture of fact and opinion, considering they stated DN Luke "possibly" surpassed Yoda, which we all know he did and by many leagues as well.

Kyle has shown nothing to put his saber skills on par with Luke. It's also possible you are comparing a DN Kyle to JA Luke, which would be more equal, but consider NJO Luke and DN Luke, surpass anyone of his era by leagues, the only jedi who comes close is DN Kyp.

Originally posted by Darth Katarn
A No, Kyle equals Lukes saber skills, And do you know nothing of the NJO he is the foremost battlemaster. Ive read everything i can on Kyle and in many places its stated that kyles power rivels lukes and equals or surpasses lukes saber skills

Research it

Ye you tell that to tdtd, who has read almost all the NJO Books, yeh great reasoning, i doubt you've read one book.

lol

Luke is above Kyle, Kyp probably is, too. I don't know about Jacen or Corran or anyone else.

Jacen could probably challenge Kyle, but I'm not sure if I see him coming out with a win. Corran would be annoying as hell, considering he can absorb energy output on the level of multiple thermal detonaters and he's supposdly a pretty decent duelist himself. But personally, I'd put him at 3rd or 4th in the NJO hierarchy.

Luke, Kyp, Jacen, Kyle, Coran.. Type 5 of the NJO.

Look at my sig and and you'll find the answer.

I was under the impression that Kyle was on par with Jacen.

Jacen gets pretty powerful under Vergere's tutelage, though. Before Traitor he probably is less powerful than Kyle. After..he is much more powerful. He rivals him. I am guessing it's Luke, Kyp, Jacen, Kyle, Corran. I agree with Ttd on this one.

DN Jacen could probably challenge Kyle, but as of Traitor? He'd get his ass handed to him.

Originally posted by Deception
Darth Katarn if you got that from wikipedia, then you are using a non-canon source. Wikipedia has a mixture of fact and opinion, considering they stated DN Luke "possibly" surpassed Yoda, which we all know he did and by many leagues as well.

Kyle has shown nothing to put his saber skills on par with Luke. It's also possible you are comparing a DN Kyle to JA Luke, which would be more equal, but consider NJO Luke and DN Luke, surpass anyone of his era by leagues, the only jedi who comes close is DN Kyp.


Nobody surpasses yoda not even like.And prove to me wikipedia is not a canon source

Originally posted by Darth Katarn
Nobody surpasses yoda not even like.And prove to me wikipedia is not a canon source
Wrong.. Reasons:
1. You are new
2. You seem to have no knowledge of anything Star Wars related
3. You are wrong

As a Jedi Yoda would probably be the second greatest Jedi, only behind DN Luke. But there are many Sith that surpass Yoda..

Ancient Sith (Ragnos, Simus, Sadow, Kressh, etc)
Exar Kun
Freedon Nadd
probably Kyp Durron in terms of Raw force powers
Revan
perhaps Bane

Hmm...I have to say I don't really know who's going to win here.

Revan:
- prodigy in lightsaber combat and force use (as it seems - possibly using a unique style)
- 3 years of war experience (Mandalorian Wars)
- defeated pretty nasty opponents (Yusanis, Mandalore, Malak)
- eventually gathered tons of knowledge about the force (Jedi, Malachor V, Korriban)

Kyle:
- gone through Imperial training and became mercenary / spy (argueably the best mercenary in the Galaxy since he was able to best Boba Fett as well as Dark Troopers in shoot-outs)
- 4 years of Battle experience (Galactic Civil War)
- also prodigy in lightsaber combat and force use (proven by the fact that he defeated 7 Dark Jedi in lightsaber and force combat - when Jerec was a fully trained PT Jedi Knight / Master partly powered up by the Valley of the Jedi - without actual training)
- fell to the Dark Side and was redeemed (MotS)
- defeated Desann and a variety of Dark Jedi in JK 2 (possibly got a nice boost in power by stepping into the Valley of the Jedi's core beam)
- became Council Member of the NJO as well as the foremost battle master (training people like Jaden Korr).
- if we count the Dark Side Ending of JA in he was able to force push a Jedi through an entire room and survive a blast of Ragnos sceptre which we have seen tearing down walls before
- also possibly using a unique style or several blends of styles
- another 5 years of war experience added through the war against the YV.

I don't know who's more powerful here but Kyle has by far more experience compared to Revan (combat experience, war experience, force training, lightsaber training and use of both force and lightsaber) although Revan has an advantage in knowledge (although I have to say that Kyle had access to knowledge that was stored on Ossus, pretty much all of the PT era knowledge and some knowledge from the pre-Ruusan era).

I think this would be a pretty tough fight. Revan might manage to come out alive (if he pulls some uber Sith powers out of his sleeves) but unless we get more knowledge about Revan, Kyle might also be able to win this. I really don't know.

Nice points Nai but the game play isn't canon, and even if we do consider the gameplay canon, it's always the lightside that's canon, never the darkside.

Excellent points, Borbarad. Revan was known more for his command over The Force, while Kyle is famous for his Lightsaber Skills. Revan is like the Anakin Skywalker of his era(Unincluding Personality!), while Kyle is like the Count Dooku or Cin Drallig of his era. Either way for me. In terms of Force, I say Revan. But with Lightsaber, I have to say Kyle. Unlike Ulic, Kyle had ABSOLUTELY NO lightsaber training. Now that is remarkable!

There's nothing that puts Kyle about Revan in lightsaber combat though. He's inferior to Revan.. Remember, gameplay isn't canon.

I'm not getting how people reach Revan > Kyle in lightsaber combat from the "evidence" provided here.

But the Skilled Dark Jedi ARE! Defeating Seven Dark Jedi, one powered by the valley of the Jedi, in lightsaber combat is incredible, you can't ignore that.

Originally posted by tdtd
There's nothing that puts Kyle about Revan in lightsaber combat though. He's inferior to Revan.. Remember, gameplay isn't canon.

But the Skilled Dark Jedi ARE! Defeating Seven Dark Jedi, one powered by the valley of the Jedi, in lightsaber combat is incredible, you can't ignore that.

Sorry for double posting.

Because Janus, Revan was known as a lightsaber prodigy, and him defeating Malak whether Malak was powered by the star forge or not, is more of a testament to his power than Kyle defeating 7 dark jedi...

Except the fact that Kyle defeated them without traning (or with minor traning)...

Ok, that's like saying Ulic is uber powerful with a saber because he defeated somebody without the force. How do you plan on quantifying Kyle's power with training as opposed to without?

Ulic already knew how to handle a saber very well, Kyle didn't. This talks strongly for both his saber and force abilities. And I'm not saying he is uber powerful, but seriousley, would you put Kyle in Dark forces 1 above Kyle in DN? I woulden't....So Kyle did a feat that is comparable to Revan's greatest feat, and this was with minor traning, he could only have grown more powerful since then, + that he got more power from the Valley of the Jedi..

Originally posted by kamikz
Ulic already knew how to handle a saber very well, Kyle didn't. This talks strongly for both his saber and force abilities. And I'm not saying he is uber powerful, but seriousley, would you put Kyle in Dark forces 1 above Kyle in DN? I woulden't....So Kyle did a feat that is comparable to Revan's greatest feat, and this was with minor traning, he could only have grown more powerful since then, + that he got more power from the Valley of the Jedi..

Indeed. Revan was already well trained, AND the one of the strongest Jedi Knights(or the strongest) of his time. Did you see Revan fighting Malak, or even Bandon right when he got his lightsaber? Kyle had no training whatsoever, and did a remarkable feat for someone with no blade-to-blade training. It's nothing short of amazing, especially when The Valley of the Jedi increased his power. Kyle relearned and mastered his powers - both light and dark - in only weeks. Before even becoming a Jedi Master, he killed Desann who had become approximently as powerful Luke Skywalker because of the Valley. If it did all of that for Desann, how much more for Kyle Katarn? Kyle, I think, Takes this, when it comes to lightsaber combat.

Right, so you guys just listed some feats for Kyle... Great... Now again I ask you, how are you going to quantify his power from the time where he had no training to when he was a "lightsaber prodigy", and how, if you can even quantify it, are you going to put him above Revan?

Okay, so in Jedi Outcast we see Kyle defeating Desaan.

Revan and Malak: Bwahahahahha!

Its not like defeating Desaan actually means anything...

When it come to Force, I'd have to for Revan towards Revan.

As for zephiel7, Desann was able to defeat Luke Skywalker, which also means he could have killed, at least, any one Jedi Master the academy had in a Force and Lightsaber battle. Killing Desann could have saved the lives of many Jedi.

And tdtd, I put him above Revan because many of Kyle's greatest opponents were more powerful than him, while all of Revan's enemy's were weaker than him. Even if Revan was stronger, Kyle has many skills to fall back on. for example His fighting style is very violent - literally. In JKJA, Kyle will literally pick up Jaden and toss him, punch Jaden twice in the gut and once in the head, and also puts Jaden in head-locks. Even if Revan was better, Kyle's.....unusual fighting style may catch Revan off gaurd long enough to kill him. I Don't, however think he has a chance when it comes to Raw Force strength. Revan will win there.

Revan at his peak is alot more powerful then some people give him credit for. I really dont think Kyle has a chance(my opinion).

Originally posted by tdtd
There's nothing that puts Kyle about Revan in lightsaber combat though. He's inferior to Revan.. Remember, gameplay isn't canon.

Wow. And because gameplay isn't canon, all that we know of Revan's lightsaber skills is that he defeated Yusanis (a non force user), Mandalore (another non force user) and Malak (who was always inferior to him). And he did that with years of training. The rest he did was done by him + an unknown amount of friends.

Kyle:
- took down Jerec and his 6 comrades (Jerec was a fully trained PT Jedi Master meaning he spend his entire lifetime from childhood on training with the lightsaber and the force) without actual training
- he challenged Mara Jade (while still he didn't pocess any Jedi training vs Mara "Assasin trained by Sidious" Jade)
- he took down Desann (+ half an army of Dark Jedi - this is not avoidable in the game) still without training
- the he had a nice "conflict" with the Yuuzhan Vong and with all the people that did hang out in the Jedi Academy they still chose Kyle to become their "foremost battlemaster" and lightsaber trainer

So how is Revan superior to Kyle in terms of lightsaber combat when Kyle is a prodigy too and had much more experience fighting against other force users as well as fighting against "normal" people ?

Hmm.. The fact that he took down hundreds of dark jedi whether he had help from two others or not, the fact that he took down Malak who could have been powered by the Star Forge.

Your insane! Even in gameplay you can't kill even ONE hundred Dark Jedi. So Malak was powered by the Star Forge...Jerec's Raw Force Power was empowered permenently increased by the valley of the Jedi.

What do you mean you can't kill 100 dark jedi, that was the storyline, whether he did it by himself or with 2 other Jedi.

Besides the Star Forge, you CAN(optional) only fight very few Dark Jedi.

three Dark Jedi on Tatooine(unavoidable), Kyyshhyyykk(unavoidable), seven on Manann, one on Taris, and approx 13 on Korriban(16 if Bandon included), 13 on the Leviathan, and approximately 30 on the Star Forge. and 10 on the UW.

At the MOST you can fight Approx 82 Dark Jedi on KOTOR.

Even WITH gameplay, you can kill no more than 95. There's no way he kills over one hundred, or even a hundred itself.

Originally posted by tdtd
What do you mean you can't kill 100 dark jedi, that was the storyline, whether he did it by himself or with 2 other Jedi.

Lmao. Did you even play KotoR ?

The only people armed with a lightsaber you have to fight are Juhani (before joining your team) and the 3 Dark Jedi that visit you on any planet + Darth Bandon and his two comrades. These fights can't be avoided. On Rakata Prime you always encounter Dark Siders in less numbers (only one or two each time) than your own team (when you always have two other Jedi with you while you're in the temple).

On the Star Forge the Dark Jedi also show up in teams of 2 or 3 - the rest of the forces attacking you are normal Sith troopers. So where are your "hundrets of Dark Jedi" ? Even if you run through the entirety of every level of the entire game you won't encounter hundret Dark Jedi.

Also notice that the group size is part of the game play. Do you really think that all people on the Ebon Hawk did stay inside the ship when Revan reached the Star Forge - except those who went with Revan ? So virtually all that Revan did during the events shown in KotoR could have been done by him + the entirety of the people on the Ebon Hawk with the exception of his visit in the temple on Rakata prime (him + Jolee + Juhani), the events on the Leviathan (him, Bastilla, Carth) and his fight against Malak (which he did alone).

And please stop acting as if Revan's party members were a non-issue. War heroes and trained Jedi that spent half of their live in a place like the Shadowlands tend to be skilled fighters...

I didn't say they weren't an issue, read what I wrote, but you make it seem as if his party did the work while Revan sat back and had a cup of tea.

Hm...

- How powerful were the dark jedi and Sith on the Star Forge?

- Exactly how many were canonically present?

- How can we measure Revan against them without including his friends' contributions?

How powerful was jerec, how powerful were the 7 dark jedi? hmmm

Originally posted by tdtd
How powerful was jerec, how powerful were the 7 dark jedi? hmmm

Thanks for reinforcing the argument. The issue is that Kyle canonically killed Jerec and the other seven one after another. Revan canonically only killed Bandon and Malak for certain.

There were seven in total, including Jerec.

Yun
Gorc/Pic
Maw
Sariss
Boc
Jerec

I wasn't reinforcing the argument I was making a statement. And Kyle defeating those 7 dark Jedi puts him above Revan, if you consider defeating 7 dark jedi more impressive than defeating Malak, Bandon, and god knows how many dark jedi...And of course I know he had his party but unless you're going to tell me he just sat back, it's fair enough to say he killed enough dark jedi.

Originally posted by tdtd
I wasn't reinforcing the argument I was making a statement. And Kyle defeating those 7 dark Jedi puts him above Revan, if you consider defeating 7 dark jedi more impressive than defeating Malak, Bandon, and god knows how many dark jedi...And of course I know he had his party but unless you're going to tell me he just sat back, it's fair enough to say he killed enough dark jedi.

No, because there were many situations where you don't even have to fight at all.

By this logic, because Kyle waded through Desann's ship alone, he must have killed dozens upon dozens of shadowtroopers, who were force-sensitive, had energizing force crystals and cortosis armor.

Ah ok so you are telling me that his party killed 100 dark Jedi while he did nothing? Does that even seem logical or realistic to you? And lets assume for argument sake that he didn't, I believe defeating Malak on the SF and Bandon earlier is far more impressive than defeating Jerec and 7 dark Jedi.

The point is, Revan was stronger than any opponent he ever faced - he was Dark Lord of the Sith! Kyle had no Lightsaber combat skills, and defeated seven dark Jedi, fully trained! Jerec himself was a trained Jedi Master and one of the Emperor's Hands. All of the dark Jedi were far better trained than Kyle, and he defeated them all, Gorc and Pic at the same time! He even defeated Sariss, a dark jedi so powerful, Qu Rahn himself, a Jedi Master, said that he feared. Kyle was weaker and less skilled than all of the force wielding opponents he faced, and came out on top!

Xepeyon nobody is downplaying Kyle's feats, but what is your point here? It speaks more for Revan saying he was the strongest of anyone he's ever faced, while Kyle wasn't. How would Kyle's feats put him above Revan.

I still think Kyle would put up one hell of a fight, but there really aren't too many people more powerful then Revan. The only people more powerful then Revan are the Ancient sith and Ajunta Pall, Nihilus and Sion, Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron, Nadd and Exar Kun and Bane and DE Sidious IMO. Oh and maybe some vong and other force users.

Throughout his Jedi training, Kyle got more powerful, especially after his power got increased because of The Valley of the Jedi. Kyle made amazing achievements for someone with no training. How much more could he do when he became a Jedi Master? He's not on the Masters' Council for nothing. He is above Revan because he showed more skill, both as a force beginner, and as a Jedi Master. What spectacular thing did Revan do when he was an early Padawan, that is at least on par with Kyle who had no training?

Originally posted by Xepeyon
Throughout his Jedi training, Kyle got more powerful, especially after his power got increased because of The Valley of the Jedi. Kyle made amazing achievements for someone with no training. How much more could he do when he became a Jedi Master? He's not on the Masters' Council for nothing. He is above Revan because he showed more skill, both as a force beginner, and as a Jedi Master. What spectacular thing did Revan do when he was an early Padawan, that is at least on par with Kyle who had no training?

That's not a logical argument because you can't effectively quantify his power, what is it with people trying to do that lately. You can't say "because he showed more skill as a force beginner, he is above Revan". That's not a logical argument. I can say Revan showed more skill as a trained Jedi/Jedi Master. You can't bring potential into this either.

Nevertheless, each of those dark Jedi are perhaps Juhani and Jolee's equals. The two of them were never described as "exceptional" Jedi, with one of them being easily defeated by a memory wiped newbie Revan and the other having his lightsaber and force skills stagnating on Kashyyk. Without Revan the battle would have been completely lost, so it can be supported that Revan was responsible for many of these dark jedi being defeated in the temple.



Well a direct quote from Malak indicates that canonically Revan did fight against an army of dark Jedi. Malak states "send every single dark Jedi and Star Forge battle droid" blah blah blah. I am not arguing gameplay here, just in game documentation. The battle droids that Revan fights were commented to easily dispose of "Jedi Knights" (Yes those Jedi knights such as Juhani and Jolee). So without Revan, the army would have raped them so fast it wouldn't be funny.



The people with Revan would not canonically be much help to Revan. Carth would have been able to take a dark Jedi, Mission would be torn to peices, T3 and Zaalbar would also be completely destroyed. Canderous or HK could probably kill like 3 dark Jedi AT MAX AND IF COMPLETELY LUCKY and not without a LOT of difficulty. Jolee and Juhani are described as average Jedi knights, so they would probably only be to entertain a dark Jedi or two each. The rest is left to Revan, hence the party made it out alive. So Revan was doing most of the killing.



Their Jedi skills and lightsaber training weren't improving during that time... thats for sure.

Revan was responsible for the deaths of so many dark Jedi, not his comrades. Blame the man in the white cloak, not his innocent companions.

lol.. What zephiel said.. I wonder what "an army of dark Jedi" means to some people.

Revan only won because of all the stimulants and medpacks. Also, Revan could have sneaked past the Dark Jedi. There is no canon evidence to support that Revan was more powerful than a whole bunch of people, especially people of Kyles caliber. All people can say is "He beat Malak!!1!" Well, sorry, but we don't know how powerful he is. Or how powerful you have to be to control the Star Forge. We can't say that he is more powerful than Kyle when there is no evidence to support it.

We know Revan was the most powerful of his era, which was a martial period. We know Kyle was the 3rd of 4th most powerful of his era...

Yoda was the most powerful of his era and Naga Sadow was 2nd or 3rd of his, ergo Yoda stomps him. Comparable? I think not.

I was proving a point, I didn't say Revan would curbstomp him. Revan has shown to have more mastery in the force. In regards to Lightsaber combat, who knows it can go either way.

Okay then, what exactly is this mastery of the force?

I don't think that there is actually any evidence of Revan having such a great mastery over the force, however if you carefully interpret what he did in the star forge, it speaks great volumes about his power.

The Star Forge is what I was thinking about yea.. There's really no clear evidence for either guy I just like Revan cause he looks cool in his little helmet, and KOTOR rules.. And Kyle seems like a redneck.

Illogical.

Tell me, where in the game (even in gameplay) did you simply turn the corner, open the door, and pop, you're in a room full of 15 swarming dark jedi?

Hint: nowhere. You encounter them in small groups at best, 3 Jedi there are a huge advantage.

Besides, if you wanted to play the numbers game (which is silly), I could just as easily say Vader took out several Jedi at once, he must be uber. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the Dark Jedi he encounted, if he encounted any (which is yet to be confirmed canonically) would most likely be inferior opponents, to not only Revan, but to Bandon and Malak too.



And were they confirmed to repeatedly take out Jedi Knights in non-assassination circumstances? No. To take an ingame quote spoken by a character and try to apply to all circumstances is being narrowminded.

Again, Malak sending an army of Dark Jedi does not mean that he fought them, or fought them all at once, or fought them when the odds were stacked against him. We know he took out the droids, but other than that? Not much.



That's not the point. More people mean more diversion, more battle, more targets, more support. If you can get one of the Jedi to stand there swinging a lightsaber around, that makes Revan's job easier.

And again, it's not like there were very many scenes in the game, gameplay or not, where he simply walks into a room of 20 pissed off dark jedi that swarm him.



What is your basis to argue that they weren't improving? Gameplay?

More gameplay?

interesting read illustrious