Super-Speed Fighting vs. REALITY

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Horrificus
Gladiator can hyper-punch yada, yada, yada, smack a head off.
Superman will speed-blitz derrrrr, guts everywhere.
Shazam could speed-rush blah, blah, blah, eyes fall out.
Count Nefaria would ultra-speed-kick/punch duuuhhh, brain into pants.


I hate the entire speedster fighting argument. I have posted a ton of reasons why this is a joke logically, and even if it is sued, why it would be useless or even dangerous to do this against a class 50 or higher fighter.
There are only a few characters that should be able to use this type of attack, and their speed is not the only ability they would need to do it.
I want to hear what you think.
Personally, I wouldn't allow this to be used in a fight I proposed.
But, that's me. But, hey! If I make the thread, I can set up the scenario.
Yay!

Dizzle
I'd like to hear why it's a joke, honestly... In some cases, it really is, but in many others, (the ones you included being good examples, actually)speed alone will end up winning the fight. Look at Flash, honestly. Or even Spiderman. Why can Spiderman beat so many people? They can't touch him. Speed is easily one of the most useful traits one can have in terms of fighting.

badabing
The speed fighting gets old for me. Its hardly ever used in comics except for the real speedsters, but in this forum it's the crux for many posts.

Thunderstrike
The whole Speed Blitz argument is honestly bunk the way someone described it to me. You can't throw haymakers at that speed. I'm trained in Boxing, Kickboxing, and Sambo, so I know how to throw a haymaker. You can't throw multiple ones at a quick speed, no matter how fast you are. The physics just don't work. You could probably jab really fast, but not haymaker. Also, the word is tossed around so much, some people think anyone could do it, i.e. Mider saying Slade could speedblitz someone.

Dizzle
Originally posted by Thunderstrike
The whole Speed Blitz argument is honestly bunk the way someone described it to me. You can't throw haymakers at that speed. I'm trained in Boxing, Kickboxing, and Sambo, so I know how to throw a haymaker. You can't throw multiple ones at a quick speed, no matter how fast you are. The physics just don't work. You could probably jab really fast, but not haymaker. Also, the word is tossed around so much, some people think anyone could do it, i.e. Mider saying Slade could speedblitz someone.

It depends. Slade is definitely fast enough to blitz a normal human from a fairly short distance...

And the speedblitz, while it IS the most useful tactic for many, many characters, makes for very boring comics. Even Flash hardly ever utilizes it. The point is never to throw haymakers, except for some circumstances. (IMP, anyone?) Speedblitz is basically running/flying fist first into someone so as to knock them out, or using powers to do the same. (energy blasts and such)

And TS, honestly, even someone like Quicksilver should be able to throw 50 haymakers in the time it takes me or you to get a jab out there. To a point, haymakers are always going to be slow, but speedsters are WELL beyond that point. They can throw one, recover, and throw another and so on, well before you or I could hope to even process the fact taht we just got hit in the face a whole bunch of times. When one moves at mach 10, physics that apply to humans really don't matter that much. I'll agree, the aforementioned Slade or someone like Spiderman probably wouldn't be able to throw more than one very quickly, but Flash? Superman? It's not even comparable.

Tshern
You know how to throw a haymaker in OUR reality. It all different in comics. As I've said before, don't try to apply real-world logic and physics...

Horrificus
Originally posted by Dizzle
I'd like to hear why it's a joke, honestly... In some cases, it really is, but in many others, (the ones you included being good examples, actually)speed alone will end up winning the fight. Look at Flash, honestly. Or even Spiderman. Why can Spiderman beat so many people? They can't touch him. Speed is easily one of the most useful traits one can have in terms of fighting.
Excellent.
You actually picked my two examples of speed-fighting actually being possible.
Spiderman - Super speed, super strength to help him catch himself, keep his balance and recover. And, what makes it all possible?
The the power that allows him to get a Super Grip with his feet and hands. This, with his strength, would allow him to to redirect his weight and direction instantly. No slipping, no momentum carrying him away from the target. But, then again, we don't see him moving as fast as he can, like a battering ram, and plowing into anybody. This would probably be very bad for him.
Flash - Actually has control of "Speed". This is not just a "fast guy". Flash has control of speed at an almost metaphysical level. He actually controls where and how he interacts with space.
But, one of the problems I see with this type of character and this type of attack, would be:
We always see that when a character does the thousands of superfast punches thing being able to break through armor, metals, and doing damage on super strong, durable guys.
Why isn't it also pulverizing the hands of the speedster? Logic would say that these guys would actually have to be more durable, and tougher than the guys they are hitting.
In other words, the Flash would have to be more durable and denser than Superman, if this was to work on Superman.
Get me?
Other guys that could potentially pull this off, would be guys that control gravity, space, magnetism, and the like. But we still have the toughness problem I described.

Superherovandal
two words to explain Flash and Kid Flash and almost all of the speedsters in DCU doing what they do: Speed Force. Pick up a Flash comic Horrificus!

Horrificus
As I posted in the thread of Triathlon vs. Captain America in response to Batdude123:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
^ Actually, if you re-read some of the posts, Triathlon can run over 100mph. And besides, you realize that during the fight, Triathlon is gonna have three times the reaction time and three times the reflexes as Captain, right?

My Reply:
He is still going to exist, so the effects of his mass with gravity and momentum are still going to happen.
We aren't talking about a special speed power. Just three times the stuff as captain america.
He can't run around in tight circles at 100 mph, hitting and kicking.
It has nothing to do with reaction time or strength. It has to do with everything from your feet up, getting thrown off balance.

Try this-
Stand up in your living room, and run around as fast as you can in little circles, punching and kicking into the middle of the circle.
(here's a tip: Be ready to call 911, and don't let anybody see you)

Thunderstrike
With the Flashes it would make sense. It wouldn't make much sense for Superman or Wonderwoman.

Superherovandal
Superman cause he's plenty durable with his bio-aura. and do i really need to explain Wonder Woman and her powers that were MAGICALLY-endowed and given to her by THE GREEK GODS.

Superherovandal
and really if you try to put realworld science or logic into comics why is Wolverine not some giant Cancer blob due to his enhanced regenerative powers? and how did Bruce Banner survive the Gamma Bomb in order to become the Hulk or how the heck is Batman not like breaking his leg every time he kicks a brick wall or a tree. there are an endless number of them. no point in trying it for one power and not other heroes. its just all in the imagination.

Horrificus
Originally posted by Superherovandal
two words to explain Flash and Kid Flash and almost all of the speedsters in DCU doing what they do: Speed Force. Pick up a Flash comic Horrificus!

As you can see with my thread, I agree that they, and SOME other characters can potentially do this stuff. But, it has to do with more than just being fast.
But, thanks for the "Pick up a comic Horrificus!" jab! That one never gets old, no matter how many times I see people use it in these forums.
You have, evidently, seen through my facade, and are privy to the fact that I know nothing of comics, nor am I one to PICK ONE UP, as it were.
I am reduced to a crushed, pitiful Wannabe Comic Bookier, (as it is referred to in Europe).
Bravo!

Dizzle
That's actually a very good point. I don't think you should've added fliers into the equation, as, while it is a bit of a cheap win, a speedblitz with guys like Superman is not only possible, it's the easiest thing for him to do in most cases.

However, even with Triathlon, I'd think that he could probably run in a circle and punch and kick the middle of it moderately fast. Not at his top running speed, but I don't think any speedsters really do. For guys like Flash, vibrating intangible is like hopping back and forth casually to us. For Triathlon, what is sprinting in a circle and punching and kicking the middle is walking in a circle and punching and kicking the middle. As long as he gets his foot down to change his direction, I don't see why he couldn't conceivably keep up a pretty good pace while dancing around Cap. I agree that Quicksilver should never be clocked at his absolute potential (mach 10ish) while hitting someone repeatedly, but to me or you, what IS the difference between mach 2 and mach 10? The only problem I see with your logic is that it assumes all speedsters always operate at a full out, maximum speed sprint. Other than that, it really is something to think about...

Horrificus
Originally posted by Superherovandal
and really if you try to put realworld science or logic into comics why is Wolverine not some giant Cancer blob due to his enhanced regenerative powers? and how did Bruce Banner survive the Gamma Bomb in order to become the Hulk or how the heck is Batman not like breaking his leg every time he kicks a brick wall or a tree. there are an endless number of them. no point in trying it for one power and not other heroes. its just all in the imagination.

Why did Batman kick a tree? Plus, he has Bat Legs! Hehe.


Anyway, I thought that at one time, the Hulk's physique was actually described as being basically cancerous in nature.

And, I don't think Wolverin is even a real person. He is probably just a comic book character, so I'm not really interested in how this argument effects him.


wink

Superherovandal
no i'm not trying to make fun of you or offend you in any way but seriously how could you think know anything about the flash and ask all these questions about the nature of his powers when it is explained away, kind of half heartedly with no science, but it should suffice enough to answer your question. In all seriousness you mustn't either do your research and/or read any Flash books to ask such a question. thats all i am saying. no point in trying to put real world logic in worlds created with the intent to make money by taking people out of our reality to worlds where such laws and concepts such as gravity and logic can be broken. :end philisophical ramble: big grin

inamilist
Originally posted by Horrificus
Excellent.
You actually picked my two examples of speed-fighting actually being possible.
Spiderman - Super speed, super strength to help him catch himself, keep his balance and recover. And, what makes it all possible?
The the power that allows him to get a Super Grip with his feet and hands. This, with his strength, would allow him to to redirect his weight and direction instantly. No slipping, no momentum carrying him away from the target. But, then again, we don't see him moving as fast as he can, like a battering ram, and plowing into anybody. This would probably be very bad for him.
Flash - Actually has control of "Speed". This is not just a "fast guy". Flash has control of speed at an almost metaphysical level. He actually controls where and how he interacts with space.
But, one of the problems I see with this type of character and this type of attack, would be:
We always see that when a character does the thousands of superfast punches thing being able to break through armor, metals, and doing damage on super strong, durable guys.
Why isn't it also pulverizing the hands of the speedster? Logic would say that these guys would actually have to be more durable, and tougher than the guys they are hitting.
In other words, the Flash would have to be more durable and denser than Superman, if this was to work on Superman.
Get me?
Other guys that could potentially pull this off, would be guys that control gravity, space, magnetism, and the like. But we still have the toughness problem I described.

dude, you are preaching to the choir here

check the quote in my sig, there have been countless times i have gotten dragged into pointless arguments about comic physics, or who should be able to do what

while yes, quicksilver hitting iron man on the BEST day at normal speeds should hurt his hand, there is a certain level of disbelief that needs to be suspended in these arguments.

My favorite example would be batman, a peakhuman, SNAPPING the neck of a trained attack jaguar. Honestly........ BARF

I'm not sure where the line between comic physics and real physics should cross, so I do appreciate your argument, and i encourage it in threads (gotta keep it interestingstick out tongue), but, comics aren't or shouldn't be attempting to recreate reality. Its the fact that they are sureal and imaginative that we, or at least I, really enjoy them. I don't need the writers to hold 4 degrees in chemestry and physics, but, on the same note, it is nice when it does come down to earth and isnt just "person X has this genetic mutation"

Superherovandal
yeah its all fake anyway no need to talk about the physics of the powers.

Horrificus
Originally posted by Dizzle
That's actually a very good point. I don't think you should've added fliers into the equation, as, while it is a bit of a cheap win, a speedblitz with guys like Superman is not only possible, it's the easiest thing for him to do in most cases.

However, even with Triathlon, I'd think that he could probably run in a circle and punch and kick the middle of it moderately fast. Not at his top running speed, but I don't think any speedsters really do. For guys like Flash, vibrating intangible is like hopping back and forth casually to us. For Triathlon, what is sprinting in a circle and punching and kicking the middle is walking in a circle and punching and kicking the middle. As long as he gets his foot down to change his direction, I don't see why he couldn't conceivably keep up a pretty good pace while dancing around Cap. I agree that Quicksilver should never be clocked at his absolute potential (mach 10ish) while hitting someone repeatedly, but to me or you, what IS the difference between mach 2 and mach 10? The only problem I see with your logic is that it assumes all speedsters always operate at a full out, maximum speed sprint. Other than that, it really is something to think about...

I see where you are coming from, but I'mnot assuming that characters are always using full speed. Actually, part of my argument is how forum members use the full speed of the characters as part of the equation of a fight.
As you saw, somebody basically described how Triathlon would run around Cap at 100 mph, (which I suppose is Triathlons fastest).
After I pictured it in my head, and stopped laughing, I came up with the argument that you can't use the top speeds of most of these people in a fight.
That is like saying that, because my motorcycle can go 145 mph on a straight-away, I should also be able to use it on a battlefield, with a sword, and go round and round, sword fighting at 145 mph.
And, I have tried it. I got hurt.

Horrificus
Originally posted by Superherovandal
no i'm not trying to make fun of you or offend you in any way but seriously how could you think know anything about the flash and ask all these questions about the nature of his powers when it is explained away, kind of half heartedly with no science, but it should suffice enough to answer your question. In all seriousness you mustn't either do your research and/or read any Flash books to ask such a question. thats all i am saying. no point in trying to put real world logic in worlds created with the intent to make money by taking people out of our reality to worlds where such laws and concepts such as gravity and logic can be broken. :end philisophical ramble: big grin

Dude, I'm just messing with ya. Having fun. Don't worry, stomp on my toes all ya want. This is all in good fun!

Superherovandal
cool your alright man. one of the nicest yet objective people on this forum. But i'm better wink stick out tongue big grin

Horrificus
Originally posted by inamilist
dude, you are preaching to the choir here

check the quote in my sig, there have been countless times i have gotten dragged into pointless arguments about comic physics, or who should be able to do what

while yes, quicksilver hitting iron man on the BEST day at normal speeds should hurt his hand, there is a certain level of disbelief that needs to be suspended in these arguments.

My favorite example would be batman, a peakhuman, SNAPPING the neck of a trained attack jaguar. Honestly........ BARF

I'm not sure where the line between comic physics and real physics should cross, so I do appreciate your argument, and i encourage it in threads (gotta keep it interestingstick out tongue), but, comics aren't or shouldn't be attempting to recreate reality. Its the fact that they are sureal and imaginative that we, or at least I, really enjoy them. I don't need the writers to hold 4 degrees in chemestry and physics, but, on the same note, it is nice when it does come down to earth and isnt just "person X has this genetic mutation"

I agree.
I just don't like the speed-fighting tactic to always be a catch-all.
Whenever a character is outmatched, if possible, somebody pulls the speed-card, and makes some crazy claim that has either never happened before, never happened before to their character, or never happened before to the character being attacked by the speedster, so there is no evidence of it being a possible tactic.

Ah, for a perfect world...

Horrificus
As long as everybody is now arguing and agitated,

my work here is done...

Dizzle
Originally posted by inamilist
dude, you are preaching to the choir here

check the quote in my sig, there have been countless times i have gotten dragged into pointless arguments about comic physics, or who should be able to do what

Hey, that's a sweet quote... (sorry, had to)



This is definitely the best anti-speedster argument out there- Why in hell don't they kill themselves? Flash is protected by the speed force, but other than that, there really is no explanation for it. Quicksilver has enhanced durability in his hands, feet, and eyes as well, but there's definitely others who should really just splatter themselves whenever they start attacking a high durability foe. (Northstar does come to mind...)



It was an attack leopard. no expression And it bit Batman's glove, so Batman pulled its head to the side and snapped its neck. Given what a peak human entails, I see that being pretty feasible. (the physical act of snapping its neck, not the leopard being stupid enough to let the hold it had on a glove be the thing to kill it) The better one was where Batman jumped on the back of a trained tiger and choked it. Or downed an entire hallway full of physically and mentally enhanced (they were smart) gorillas. Why does he do this? He's Batman, and they're comics.



Agreed. There's a fine line between what one does in comics and what one SHOULD be able to do, based on their powers. Within a comic based forum, I'd typically opt to go with comic physics instead of real world ones, but that's just me.

inamilist
Originally posted by Horrificus
I agree.
I just don't like the speed-fighting tactic to always be a catch-all.
Whenever a character is outmatched, if possible, somebody pulls the speed-card, and makes some crazy claim that has either never happened before, never happened before to their character, or never happened before to the character being attacked by the speedster, so there is no evidence of it being a possible tactic.

Ah, for a perfect world...

absolutly

your motorcycle comparison is perfect, if someone can move fast, it by no means shows that they can fight fast

there is an argument for reflexes and reaction or whatever, but its really moot and im not in the mood to nit pick smile

cheers

UniOmni
Don't yall know??! Momentum died in comics years ago. The only ones who worry about its ghost nowadays are the badguys.....Goodguys can't be bothered with such a trivial law of movement.

inamilist
Originally posted by Dizzle
Hey, that's a sweet quote... (sorry, had to)

:P self indulgent bastard.....

Originally posted by Dizzle
This is definitely the best anti-speedster argument out there- Why in hell don't they kill themselves? Flash is protected by the speed force, but other than that, there really is no explanation for it. Quicksilver has enhanced durability in his hands, feet, and eyes as well, but there's definitely others who should really just splatter themselves whenever they start attacking a high durability foe. (Northstar does come to mind...)

lol, that QS durability thing really makes me laugh. Personally, I think they shouldn't even bother, its more silly imho for a hero to have such token durability just so that people cant make fun of it than for him to just be a speedster...

Originally posted by Dizzle
It was an attack leopard. no expression And it bit Batman's glove, so Batman pulled its head to the side and snapped its neck. Given what a peak human entails, I see that being pretty feasible. (the physical act of snapping its neck, not the leopard being stupid enough to let the hold it had on a glove be the thing to kill it) The better one was where Batman jumped on the back of a trained tiger and choked it. Or downed an entire hallway full of physically and mentally enhanced (they were smart) gorillas. Why does he do this? He's Batman, and they're comics.

lol, he is batman....

I don't know if i agree with you about the leopard though. However, its been shown many times before that the term "Peakhuman" has little to do with "human"

Originally posted by Dizzle
Agreed. There's a fine line between what one does in comics and what one SHOULD be able to do, based on their powers. Within a comic based forum, I'd typically opt to go with comic physics instead of real world ones, but that's just me.

yup. I'm unhappy that there was a big move to sort of justify all the scientific paradoxes of superpowers....(especially on marvel, I really only read their stuff until recently, and really only sporatically before then, so if I'm off here, let me know). It sorta cheapens the genre for me... but then again... I do love science.... wink laughing

Horrificus
bam!

badabing
This is what I think of speed blitzing. shit

bean_machine
Well in comics Supes has been clocked at faster than light speed. So since it is an on panel feat, then he is able to use it as a tactic in the vs fights on this forum.

I am not saying full potential Superman can exceed light speed if he were correctly written, or if full potential flash yada yada yada.

On panel, Supes has speedblitz capabilities that exceed light speed, so as stated by forum rules, all characters bloodlusted, supes can and will use speedblitz and kill.

So many people say Supes can beat this guy up but he loses because he is too moral. Well bullshit, it doesn't count on this forum.

As for the physics, It doesn't make sense, but it doesn't have to because its all fictional...
Unless there is such a thing as the speedforce and power cosmic... wink

Thunderstrike
I think what we need to do is look at some of the feats on here and register whether they're PIS or not, or if someone is moving to their fullest potential. That way we can sift through the crap.

bean_machine
Superman can easily travel sublight speeds without much effort. This is much faster than the speed of thought.

Superman has also been shown to be able to travel faster than the speed of light.

Flash of course is freaking fast.

and so the list keeps going on and on.

Speedblitz is a legit tactic since it is a legit power that can be called upon.

I am not saying it is fair or fun, but if I could insta-speedblitz-kill I would use the power (for good). roll eyes (sarcastic)

meep-meep
Reality and super speed fighting in comics are about as comparable as horses are to flying fire-breathing hippopotami.

Mindship
Hmm...couple of things.

First of all, I think even worse than superspeed fighting is this "vibrating through stuff" bit. Where an Earth did This idea originate?? At least speed fighting has a lower-order analogy in what we ordinary mortals can do. But moving so fast that you can move through things?? wtf? This is pure comic physics...which is okay (more/less), as is the whole superspeed fighting thing to begin with. I mean, if a guy is superfast, he's gonna use it.

But possibly, it is not used as often as it "should be" because, maybe, it is a more difficult power for a speedster to use (eg, in Superman's case, it uses up proportionally more of his solar energy than his superstrength does). It may be "more natural" for Spiderman to fight fast than it is for Superman, though Superman can move faster.

Secondly, when an object moves very fast (approaching lightspeed), it increases in mass. Frankly, if Flash is gonna hit someone at 99%c, it only has to be once because his arm will be as massive as a mountain, all this velocity-induced density also keeping his arm from being reduced to pulp (that is, even if there was no speedforce already protecting him).

Speedblitz is legitimate, for better/worse, even if it would make for less exciting stories. But then, this Is, Was and Always Will Be the problem with superpowerful characters. PIS/CIS is inevitable, otherwise you simply can't keep writing fun fighting scenarios.

manjaro
for true super speedsters its a totally different story...cuz wally west has said on many ocassions that life is like a dvd player to him and he's the remote, he can stop, slow motion and fast forward time at will... cus his perceptions is that advanced. even when he was foot racing superman, supes was nipping at his heels and flash was like his perceptions hasnt cuaght up to mine yet...even in that spiderman movie after tobey got bit and he was fighting flash in the hallway and he was dodging his punches, you see all the movements he was making in the short amount of time..

...the moral of the story is comic book speedsters sensory perceptions are hieghtened to such a ridiculous measure that they actually see the world in slow motion, just like flys do in the real world, and thier bodies are adapted to move to the extent to keep up with thier minds.. thats why you've heard the likes of slade, spiderman superman and flash make mention that they see things in slow mo.

Horrificus
Originally posted by Mindship
Hmm...couple of things.

First of all, I think even worse than superspeed fighting is this "vibrating through stuff" bit. Where an Earth did This idea originate?? At least speed fighting has a lower-order analogy in what we ordinary mortals can do. But moving so fast that you can move through things?? wtf? This is pure comic physics...which is okay (more/less), as is the whole superspeed fighting thing to begin with. I mean, if a guy is superfast, he's gonna use it.

But possibly, it is not used as often as it "should be" because, maybe, it is a more difficult power for a speedster to use (eg, in Superman's case, it uses up proportionally more of his solar energy than his superstrength does). It may be "more natural" for Spiderman to fight fast than it is for Superman, though Superman can move faster.

Secondly, when an object moves very fast (approaching lightspeed), it increases in mass. Frankly, if Flash is gonna hit someone at 99%c, it only has to be once because his arm will be as massive as a mountain, all this velocity-induced density also keeping his arm from being reduced to pulp (that is, even if there was no speedforce already protecting him).

Speedblitz is legitimate, for better/worse, even if it would make for less exciting stories. But then, this Is, Was and Always Will Be the problem with superpowerful characters. PIS/CIS is inevitable, otherwise you simply can't keep writing fun fighting scenarios.

But, just as an FYI, you proved my point.
If Flash's arm has become as massive as a mountain, you now have to explain how Flash can carry a mountain at the speed of light.

badabing
Have there been ant instances when Superman or Gladiator have used their speed on the ground in a battle? Just wondering.

Mindship
Originally posted by Horrificus
But, just as an FYI, you proved my point.
If Flash's arm has become as massive as a mountain, you now have to explain how Flash can carry a mountain at the speed of light.

If a starship were accelerating, as it flew faster it would get heavier. In turn it would require ever more energy to accelerate. The ship better be carrying its own fuel source (highly impractical) or get it from space (eg, Bussard ramjet).

Flash would need terajoules of energy. He's lucky he has that speedforce.

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