Exar Kun and Darth Revan versus Yoda and DE Sidious

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zephiel7
Which team wins?

tdtd
I'd rate Kun>DE Sidious but not by much.
Same wth Revan>Yoda but not by much.. Kun's team wins.

zephiel7
Agreed. Two ancient Sith Lords who have seen far more combat and possess ancient skillz are most likely to best the newbies. wink

Deception
except, Revan isn't a Ancient Sith lord, his powerful though. tdtd, and that means NJO Luke > DE Sidious, but not by much, as with DN Luke. Consider its universally agreed DN Luke is only slightly better than Exar Kun.

IKC
Originally posted by Deception
Consider its universally agreed DN Luke is only slightly better than Exar Kun.

No, it isn't.

Deception
Ok the Kun is better than DN Luke, but that would put DE Sidious better than DN Luke *note im going by tdtd's standards*

IKC
I never agreed that DE Sidious was only a little inferior to Kun, either.

Deception
Er..im going by tdtd standards.

Ok in the top 10, where would you place Kun..

1) Ragnos
2) Sadow
3) Kressh
4) Simus (probable)

(These are higher than Kun)

but where would you put Kun then? 5th?6th?

Revolver Ocelot
eh, I'd put Simus at his prime above both Sadow and Kressh. Maybe Kun below Kressh and above Nadd, who is above Palpatine, as far as Sith Lords are concerned.

tdtd
Yea I agree with you Deception. It looks like we're going to have this whole DN Luke vs. Kun argument all over again. It was never actually solved but in regards to force mastery, Luke posses superior force skills to Kun, while Kun has Naga Sadow's amulet. I still go with NJO Luke<Kun<DN Luke. Also I would Kun either equal to or maybe below Nadd...

1. Ragnos
2. Simus
3. Sadow
4. Kressh
5. Nadd/Kunn

Darth_Glentract
Exar pwns them all.

tdtd
Well he does have Revan to hold off Yoda, so DE Sidious won't get a chance to do his cute force storm.

Darth_Glentract
Even if he didn't have Revan with him he'd win. Neither can stand a chance against him in lightsaber skills and Yoda won't last long against his force powers. After that DE Sidious gets killed pretty fast. When I looked at a lot of stuff recently, I realized that DN Luke and Exar, plus pretty much everyone above them are FAR above even the people who come are just below them rank wise, but not power-wise, such as DE Sidious, Yoda, or Traya.

skyflyer
I doubt that his saber skills would match either of Yoda's or Sidious'. BTW Glentract are you going to make a Hord journal.

tdtd
I agree with you Glentract. Numan you don't know what you're talking about. Kun is beyond both in saber combat, while I believe DE Sidious is above Yoda in saber combat..

skyflyer
Kun may have been a saber progidy but was simply too inexperienced to even be comparable to people like Yoda or DE Sidious.

Darth_Glentract
Is skyflyer Numan? Anyway, I started a Hord Journal, got like four pages in then got preoccupied with other stuff and haven't gone back to it.

Yeah, I can see now that it's numan.

tdtd
Originally posted by skyflyer
Kun may have been a saber progidy but was simply too inexperienced to even be comparable to people like Yoda or DE Sidious.


You're an idiot Numan. Kun with his double saber could waste Yoda and most likely DE Sidious. Most Sith/Jedi don't stand a chance against in him force powers and saber combat.

skyflyer
Dude I could be wrong but you are in no position to call anyone an idiot. Whenever I see you're making a complete fool of yourself.

BTW Glentract is it on your site?

Darth_Glentract
The Hord Journal? No. Why would I put the first tenth of a story up with the rest not written?

tdtd
Originally posted by skyflyer
Dude I could be wrong but you are in no position to call anyone an idiot. Whenever I see you're making a complete fool of yourself.

BTW Glentract is it on your site?

More denial Numan? You embarass yourself everytime you post with your stupidity, fanboyism, and speculation.. Who really makes a fool out of themselves, me, or the kid who gets banned 10 times and keeps on coming back..

skyflyer
Dude your'e not even on Jabba's level

tdtd
Good one troll.

skyflyer
Jabba as in vpokdakfdhjkfdshjk

darthsith19
Revan kills Yoda, Kun beats Sidious. Or Kun beats Sidious and Yoda at the same time. As long as he didn't give Sidious time to conjour up a storm he could beat them both at once without Revan.

Illustrious
Originally posted by skyflyer
Dude your'e not even on Jabba's level

And what's this level shit? Are you making some DnD style rating for KMC now?

"Well now, I'm going to roll my 4d6 die for Anti-Logic Fanboyism, I win!"

Isn't it past your bedtime, kid? Or are you going to come in and remind me again that you don't get logic, reasoning, and physics.

skyflyer
Listen Antediluvian, if you really want an argument why don't you just bump the Ragnos thread in the Lit forum. I've been keeping off the radar for a while but if you want to bring it, I'll bring my A game.

Illustrious
Originally posted by skyflyer
Listen Antediluvian, if you really want an argument why don't you just bump the Ragnos thread in the Lit forum. I've been keeping off the radar for a while but if you want to bring it, I'll bring my A game.

Really, I hope your A game is several million notches better than what you've already brung, because that is just pitiful. But like I said, if you want to prove once again that you're ignorant to logic, reasoning, and physics, be my guest.

skyflyer
Bump the thread and I will prick.

Illustrious
Originally posted by skyflyer
Bump the thread and I will prick.

My point exactly. If your "A" game involves shooting off the word "prick" like you're actually dissing someone, then that is rather sad.

Wesker
A game? As opposed to what? The Idiocy Game?

Deception
Numan, you still haven't replied why you insult everyone, when your the one getting banned over 10 times and being unwanted here.

Your purpose is to put your opinions and say them outloud as though they were facts, so quite frankly your posts are pathetic and you are a idiotic child that noone wants around.

Like i said find one person in this entire forum that would support you.

Great Vengeance
Sidious doesnt need Yoda, he pwns Revan and Exar at the same time.

IKC
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Sidious doesnt need Yoda, he pwns Revan and Exar at the same time.

I've already beaten the shit out of Lightsnake's arguments. Bring it on, if you think you can do better.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by IKC
I've already beaten the shit out of Lightsnake's arguments. Bring it on, if you think you can do better.

Sidious transports them both straight into the Sun. GG.

IKC
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Sidious transports them both straight into the Sun. GG.

Is this before or after it's merely resisted and Sidious gets annihilated by Kun's beams?

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by IKC
Is this before or after it's merely resisted and Sidious gets annihilated by Kun's beams?

It cant be resisted, Revan and Kun have never used or even seen his abilities and wouldnt know how to deal with it.

Wesker
Yoda has never ever seen Sidious' lightsaber before.

OMFG he can't deal with it!!!111ONEONE

IKC
Originally posted by Wesker
Yoda has never ever seen Sidious' lightsaber before.

OMFG he can't deal with it!!!111ONEONE

Pwnt. Nice try, GV.

At least you're going with a new angle, I'd never seen Lightsnake argue that Sidious' teleportation could be used, successfully, as a weapon.

No cigar, though. Oh, and absence of proof is not proof of absence. Thanks for making my sig relevant again.

Great Vengeance
Yeah Im definately pwnt... no expression



Honestly, how do you suppose to win against a being who can grab you and pull you to him from all the way across the galaxy. DE Sidious is the closest thing SW has to a true force god.

IKC
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Honestly, how do you suppose to win against a being who can grab you and pull you to him from all the way across the galaxy. DE Sidious is the closest thing SW has to a true force god.

Very easily, given you're not even portraying him accurately and are making every assumption in his favor (that the teleportation can't be resisted, for instance).

DE Sidious is decidedly not a Force god in comparison to Kun and the Sith that came before him.

tdtd
The only force gods are the Ancient Sith(Ragnos Sadow Simus and Kressh), and Artoo.

Wesker
I just read two comics of the DE series... and so far I am not impressed. Sidious basically said "Luke, join me. You have no other choice. And you can use my World Devastators too as a sign on bonus!" and he bought it. WTF?!

Wesker
Meh, they should toss this series out. It was retconned by the prequels anyways, and it's absolutely ridiculous. Lil' Luke Skywalker stops an AT-AT from working with just the Force? Come on now.

tdtd
Sorry, it happened.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by IKC
Very easily, given you're not even portraying him accurately and are making every assumption in his favor (that the teleportation can't be resisted, for instance).

DE Sidious is decidedly not a Force god in comparison to Kun and the Sith that came before him.


...

I dont really feel like fighting the whole forum over this, you arent going to convince me you are right on this and I probably will never convince you so lets agree to disagree.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Wesker
Meh, they should toss this series out. It was retconned by the prequels anyways, and it's absolutely ridiculous. Lil' Luke Skywalker stops an AT-AT from working with just the Force? Come on now.

Where was it retconned by the prequels ?
And then let's toss the TOTJ series out too. And KotoR of course. People becoming godlike in the matter of weeks / months ? Come on now.

And you did notice that Luke had additional 6 years of training under various force spirits + Joruus "I mind-control the mob" C'Baoth between ROTJ and DE ?

That "I hate everything post ROTJ" attitude is annoying especially when people tend to accept that Nomi Sunrider can pick up a lightsaber and start pwning people that just killed her trained Jedi husband but Luke isn't allowed to develop any skills past ROTJ because he's Luke "Baseball Bat" Skywalker.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Borbarad
Where was it retconned by the prequels ?
And then let's toss the TOTJ series out too. And KotoR of course. People becoming godlike in the matter of weeks / months ? Come on now.

And you did notice that Luke had additional 6 years of training under various force spirits + Joruus "I mind-control the mob" C'Baoth between ROTJ and DE ?

That "I hate everything post ROTJ" attitude is annoying especially when people tend to accept that Nomi Sunrider can pick up a lightsaber and start pwning people that just killed her trained Jedi husband but Luke isn't allowed to develop any skills past ROTJ because he's Luke "Baseball Bat" Skywalker.

I agree with this.

Borbarad
Originally posted by IKC
Is this before or after it's merely resisted and Sidious gets annihilated by Kun's beams?

I'd like to see people "resisting" a wormhole being dropped at them that tore entire fleets apart. Bane obviously thought he could annihilate all Jedi on Ruusan with that ability but Kun and Revan just "resist" it ?

Kun and Revan may slaughter Sidious before he conjures that thing up but if he can do that they are pretty much toast.

IKC
This coming from the man that claims Luke "zOMG, teh furce!111!" Skywalker can just "resist" a visible beam of energy that expands in size as it travels and is shown to rip through flesh and stone with ease?

Ah, consistency. The bane of fanboys.



False analogy, logical fallacy. Can any of the Jedi on Ruusan hold a candle to Revan and Exar? I highly doubt it.

There's also the inconvenient fact that Bane was miles away.



That's why it only took the combined potential of 2.5 people to push it back on Sidious, right?

Please.

Borbarad
Originally posted by IKC
This coming from the man that claims Luke "zOMG, teh furce!111!" Skywalker can just "resist" a visible beam of energy that expands in size as it travels and is shown to rip through flesh and stone with ease?

Ah, consistency. The bane of fanboys.

No. It's coming from the man that finished Jedi Academy (dark side ending) and saw Kyle Katarn surviving a blast from Ragnos sceptre. Also nice comparing something that destroyed entire fleets and "consumed space itself" to a blast that ripped through some flesh.

Ah, lack of knowledge about post-ROTJ stuff. The bane of IKC.



Let's see. Can Jedi that lived in a time period which was a 1000 year constant war between the Army of Light and the Brotherhood of Darkness hold a candle to Exar and especially Revan ? Yes.

Why is the fact that Bane was miles away inconvenient ? Obviously Sidious was able to use the force storm to "transport" Luke Skywalker to Byss while it destroyed everything else that was near Luke. It's not as if he doesn't have any control about it.



That's why they didn't push it back on Sidious but instead isolated Sidious using the Light Side so that he did lose control over his storm.

Please. Read the sources.

Lörd Sorgo
You guys and your EU arguments.


I'm scared to start reading Kun comics now.

Wesker
Originally posted by Borbarad
Where was it retconned by the prequels ?
And then let's toss the TOTJ series out too. And KotoR of course. People becoming godlike in the matter of weeks / months ? Come on now.

And you did notice that Luke had additional 6 years of training under various force spirits + Joruus "I mind-control the mob" C'Baoth between ROTJ and DE ?

That "I hate everything post ROTJ" attitude is annoying especially when people tend to accept that Nomi Sunrider can pick up a lightsaber and start pwning people that just killed her trained Jedi husband but Luke isn't allowed to develop any skills past ROTJ because he's Luke "Baseball Bat" Skywalker.

No need to have a bug up your ass, Nai. There is a thread on this in the EU Lit section; DE is in a sense retconned by the prequels because Anakin was supposed to complete the prophecy and kill the Sith. And DE contradicts this idea.

IKC
And you saw it wielded by a relative weakling. That and it didn't even appear to have similar properties.

False analogy, logical fallacy.



I'll be sure to take a picture of part of my SW library when I get home.



Perhaps you should do something generally referred to as "proving up."

I read Jedi vs. Sith. The only techniques anywhere close to being impressive were performed by the Sith, and only when their powers were combined.



Because context is important, otherwise you're using a false analogy. In this versus fight, Sidious is not miles away and thus can be interfered with.



And it still overpowered him. 2.5 people, only one of whom we could even consider to be "trained."

Great job there, Sidious.

tdtd
Originally posted by IKC
This coming from the man that claims Luke "zOMG, teh furce!111!" Skywalker can just "resist" a visible beam of energy that expands in size as it travels and is shown to rip through flesh and stone with ease?

Ah, consistency. The bane of fanboys.



False analogy, logical fallacy. Can any of the Jedi on Ruusan hold a candle to Revan and Exar? I highly doubt it.

There's also the inconvenient fact that Bane was miles away.



That's why it only took the combined potential of 2.5 people to push it back on Sidious, right?

Please.


Wait, did you just call somebody else a fanboy? Can we say hypocrite? When someone makes a good argument against your hero, they are a fanboy, but when you completely ignore logical arguments and start using personal attacks, youre a man of "reason".. Btw calling him a fanboy doesn't make it so... Sorry...And I'd like to see Kun use his beam on a competent force user. What's that? He's never shown to be able to do that, and you've always ignored that argument? Thought so, "fanboy".

Lörd Sorgo
Originally posted by tdtd
Wait, did you just call somebody else a fanboy? Can we say hypocrite? When someone makes a good argument against your hero, they are a fanboy, but when you completely ignore logical arguments and start using personal attacks, youre a man of "reason".. Btw calling him a fanboy doesn't make it so... Sorry...And I'd like to see Kun use his beam on a competent force user. What's that? He's never shown to be able to do that, and you've always ignored that argument? Thought so, "fanboy".

IKC, you're not going to take that are you?

Revolver Ocelot
To be fair guys, Kun's beams are very tangible. I see them working on force users. On tangible people. Whether they could be blocked, however, remains to be seen.

Deception
GV, you blinded view on DE Sidious being the most powerful of all is unwanted here. Nai himself gave arguments to why Marka Ragnos is the most powerful of the most powerful. Even IKC who admittely favours Kun admits Ragnos is the most powerful, if biased people can face it, if logical people can face it, why are you so blinded to believe zomg DE Sid pwnzros all, whilst he is a relative weakling in comparison to the Ancient Sith.

So, DE Sidious performed a much larger scaled form of Force Lightning, you cannot prove whether its unique or not, it is entirely based on description and its effects are no different from Force Lightning, so thus if Force Lightning can be blocked by a lightsaber, nothing says that a powerful force being such as Kun can't block it.

ZOMG DE Sidious can teleport people, fact remains he was indeed a very powerful Sith Lord, but he did so due the fact he wanted to convert Luke to his side, yet in all the Ancient Sith and Nadd/Kun's Sith, they never pursue to recruit one potential Sith, so by that logic you assume Sidious is powerful beacuse he can transport people? Nothing dictates that the Ancient Sith/Nadd/Kun/NJO or DN Luke can't do the same, its out of neccessity that DE Sidious did so.

Enlighten me if you will, in Kun's time, who did he need to "teleport," to convert? When did the Ancient Sith need to "teleport" in order to recruit just one potential Sith. When did Nadd, Luke and so forth require to do so? The answer is that none of them ever needed to do so, hence you cannot assume they can't neither can you say, OMG DE SIDIOUS CAN TELELPORT PPL HE"LL PWNZORS. That is logical fallacy.

Nai, you cannot effectly prove that Kun's Amulet can be blocked, and whilst we are on this argument, IKC neither can you prove that Luke's emerald lightning will not effect Kun, however based on the evidence we are given, Kun's Amulet Blasts are much tangible. Why? Compare:
Emerald Lightning:
- Shown to only have been Used on the Vong
- Does not leave any traces of scarring nor damage
- Consider the Vong, are not of the force, and Luke could have soley devised them to combat the Vong, thus making it an instakill only among the Vong

Amulet Blasts:
- Phyiscal Manifestation of the Force, capable of ripping apart Structures and literally tearing through "Dark Side Empowered" Monsters.
- Shown to be a thick beam, able to tear through solid with ease. Consider it is not as tdtd assumed, blasts from an At At, but a long continous concretrated beam of the force.

Based on what is shown and given, whilst the Blasts are not an instakill, they certainly are shown to work effectively on phyiscal elements of the SW Galaxy. IKC has provided sufficient proof to show it.

Nai you still have to prove how the Amulet Blasts can be blocked by a saber which is thinner than the Blast

tdtd you still have to prove how the At At blasts compare, when its evident that the Amulet Blasts look nothing like the At At blasts. A continous beam is not the same as rapid fire from a gun turret on the At At

IKC
Originally posted by Antediluvian
IKC, you're not going to take that are you?

What, trolling? He does that all the time, haven't you noticed? I combat it in other ways.

Borbarad
Originally posted by IKC
And you saw it wielded by a relative weakling. That and it didn't even appear to have similar properties.

Let's see. The sceptre blasted through a wall, Sadow's amulet blasted through a wall. No...there is obviously no similarity.



Comes from the guy that compares Kun's amulet blasts to something that destroys entire fleets and "rends the fabric of space itself" and then talks about lack of consistency on my side ? Haha.



And canonically Revan and Malak performed force lightning, force push and force choke. That does make them superior to somebody able do destroy entire fleets with his force powers how again ? And by the way...was that you who constantly rated the TOTJ era people above all because they had so much fights against other force users ?

By that logic people who lived in a constant period of battles between Jedi and Sith for 1,000 years should be superior to people who just had the Third Shism (lasting less than a year) and the Great Sith War. What did you say ? "Ah, consistency. The bane of fanboys." ?



Do you read what I write ? Did you see that:
"Kun and Revan might slaughter Sidious before he conjures that thing (the force storm) up but if he can do that they are pretty much toast."



He still wasn't overpowered. They isolated him using the Light Side thereby making him losing control over the storm. They didn't overpower him and they didn't turn the storm against him. It's not SW according to IKC.

@Janus:


You must be joking. When you want to apply Lucas ideas on the EU the entire freaking EU is contradicted and you can throw it all out of the window. We don't even have to debate since "Luke will become the most powerful ever" and "Anakin was the most powerful being ever" which "most powerful" is "twice as powerful as Yoda / Sidious".
I guess by that logic the Ancient Sith are nonexistant and Luke can defeat everybody.

And what ? Now everything is retconned by "the prophecy" ? Ok...who was the father of Luke and Leia and whos actions and decissions were responsible for their birth and therefore Sidious defeat ? In the end Anakin is still responsible...as long as all the important stuff is done by his descendants.

@Deception:
Can you please tell me who started discussing NJO Luke vs Exar Kun here ? I don't even see Luke in this match so why you came up with "Emerald lightning" vs "Kun's amulet blast" ? Actually it's "Kun's amulet blast" vs this one here:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/forcestorm.jpg

If you show me where a blast from Kun's amulet "rends the fabric of space itself" while destroying an entire fleet or you give me anything just to suggest that something like this can be resisted I'll stop talking.

tdtd
This is one of those force powers for which there is no defense

Deception
Ok, Then how was the combined potential of Anakin, Leia and Luke able to "block" that lightning, how were they able to push it back at Sidious thus destroying him and his flagship?

The Force Storm is not a technique of which there is no defense. Quite frankly i would put Kun above the potential of Leia,Luke and Anakin thus allowing him to throw Sidious's lightning back at him

tdtd
Uh they didn't block the force storm. Read the comics again. Leia used elementary battle meditation. They got off the ship before the force storm consumed them. You can put Kun wherever you want, but there's nothing to even suggest that he could stop a force storm.. Saying otherwise is fanboyism.

Deception
Sorry, i just thought they threw it back at him. So its agreed his technique is unblockable by anyone but perhaps the Ancient Sith.

EDIT : That means if Kun knew what was good for him, he would engage in lightsaber combat ASAP, which then leans more to his favour.

tdtd
Even the ancient sith blocking it is speculation, but if it was derived from the ancient sith, they must have a way of blocking it. Anything that can be created, could be destroyed, or controlled, or stopped.

Deception
Indeed. Another point is why is everything derived from the "Ancients" its really quite annoying, since it means we cannot find more information about the technique itself.

But your right its more than likely it originated from the Ancient Sith, since DE Sidious did learn from some of them on Korriban. But honestly, i can see a Sith like Naga Sadow throwing the Force Storm right back at Sidious, as he is the stronger Sith by leagues.

PurpleSaber
Originally posted by skyflyer
Dude I could be wrong but you are in no position to call anyone an idiot. Whenever I see you're making a complete fool of yourself.
Hmm you say tdtd is making a fool out of himself, yet you are the one who gets banned just about every week yet keeps coming back, and you start insulting people everytime they prove you wrong. So sad...

Illustrious
Originally posted by PurpleSaber
Hmm you say tdtd is making a fool out of himself, yet you are the one who gets banned just about every week yet keeps coming back, and you start insulting people everytime they prove you wrong. So sad...

You gotta watch out for his A game.

tdtd
LOL

darthsith19
Kun could just pwn Sidious with his amulent blast.

IKC
The scepter blasted through a wall...into a hollow chamber. Sadow's amulet blasted through flesh and a much thicker wall.

That and the scepter's blasts don't expand as they travel, don't seem to rip through flesh, have been wielded by relative weaklings, and have only been shown to knock rocks out of walls.

No, not much similarity beyond aesthetics.



Do you want to show me where I compare the two?

For the sake of argument, quantify how much power it takes to "rend the fabric of space itself" then. I'll have a fun time watching you try.



Actually, it's because their knowledge base is far larger (and more valuable), their era is far more martial, and their displayed prowess is greater.



Except you're making a strawman argument, because that isn't what I've debated. Nice going with the logical fallacy, though.



I saw it, but interference doesn't have to be killing him. All they may need to do is push it back on him.



Oh yes, because isolating him required no effort whatsoever and they could've done it any time because they didn't have to overpower him, right?

Sure, Nai. And green bunnies leap from my anus at regular intervals.

Janus Marius
Really? Green bunnies? Doesn't that kinda hurt?

Rayvann
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Really? Green bunnies? Doesn't that kinda hurt?
laughing

tdtd
Oh so the walls that the Amulet blasts blasted through were thicker now? Can you prove that? What does the scepter being held by a relative weakling had to do with anything? For all you know Kun could have been a relative weakling without the amulet.. What's your point? How would you compare Kun's blasts which were only used once, and were never shown to take out a competent, live force user, to a force storm that destroys anything in it's path? It's pretty obvious which is more powerful. Oh and the Scepter might not "rip through flesh", but it seems to drain the force from planets..

Borbarad
Originally posted by IKC
The scepter blasted through a wall...into a hollow chamber. Sadow's amulet blasted through flesh and a much thicker wall.

That and the scepter's blasts don't expand as they travel, don't seem to rip through flesh, have been wielded by relative weaklings, and have only been shown to knock rocks out of walls.

No, not much similarity beyond aesthetics.

This is great. Give me the thickness of the temple walls that were blasted. You can't. That one's out.
Then give me the exact picture were we see Kun blasting through the wall - there is no hole visible.
Than the sceptre has been wielded by relative weaklings could do the same damage than Sadow's. Hmm. Think about that.



You said I'm not consistent because I said I don't see people resisting a force storm while I thought that Luke might be able to deflect Kun's amulet blasts. So obviously you were comparing the force storm to said amulet blasts.

Why should I point out the amount of power needed. It's so damn obvious that "destroying an entire fleet" requires more energy than "blasting a hole in a sith beast" or "vaporize a Massassi" that it isn't even worth my time trying to do something like that.



Again: I was talking about Revan, not Kun. And even if I was. How was Kun's time period more martial than a 1000-year-constant-war between Jedi and Sith ?



When you do the same it's called "You won't define my points for me, Nai". Way to go...



Which was never done. I'd like to see how they're gonna focusing on pushing that thing back (appearing just over their sorry asses) while the mad muppets tries to cut them down with his lightsaber.



No. They didn't have to overpower him. Overpowering him would have meant either killing him or destroying the force storm which they both didn't. They combined their powers to isolate him from that storm, making him lose control and the result was that the storm destroyed his ship (and Sidious with it). Luke even says that "He conquered himself". Does that sound like they did "overpower" him ?



That must hurt, dude. Do you put them in yourself ?

tdtd
Wow.. FOr once I made a point. Go me!

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Deception
GV, you blinded view on DE Sidious being the most powerful of all is unwanted here. Nai himself gave arguments to why Marka Ragnos is the most powerful of the most powerful. Even IKC who admittely favours Kun admits Ragnos is the most powerful, if biased people can face it, if logical people can face it, why are you so blinded to believe zomg DE Sid pwnzros all, whilst he is a relative weakling in comparison to the Ancient Sith.

So, DE Sidious performed a much larger scaled form of Force Lightning, you cannot prove whether its unique or not, it is entirely based on description and its effects are no different from Force Lightning, so thus if Force Lightning can be blocked by a lightsaber, nothing says that a powerful force being such as Kun can't block it.

ZOMG DE Sidious can teleport people, fact remains he was indeed a very powerful Sith Lord, but he did so due the fact he wanted to convert Luke to his side, yet in all the Ancient Sith and Nadd/Kun's Sith, they never pursue to recruit one potential Sith, so by that logic you assume Sidious is powerful beacuse he can transport people? Nothing dictates that the Ancient Sith/Nadd/Kun/NJO or DN Luke can't do the same, its out of neccessity that DE Sidious did so.

Enlighten me if you will, in Kun's time, who did he need to "teleport," to convert? When did the Ancient Sith need to "teleport" in order to recruit just one potential Sith. When did Nadd, Luke and so forth require to do so? The answer is that none of them ever needed to do so, hence you cannot assume they can't neither can you say, OMG DE SIDIOUS CAN TELELPORT PPL HE"LL PWNZORS. That is logical fallacy.



1. Marka Ragnos, the guy who was pwned by Jaden Korr??? no expression

I happen to think the ancient sith are 'relative weakling' in comparison to DE Sidious. What now?


2. Force Storm isnt just some lightning, do some research...



3. Blind speculation. And besides there was situations where they could of used it to help themself, for example Kun when he going to be attacked by the Republic fleet on Yavin could of saved himself alot of trouble if just teleported away, dont you think?


4. Read above.

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1. Marka Ragnos, the guy who was pwned by Jaden Korr??? no expression

I happen to think the ancient sith are 'relative weakling' in comparison to DE Sidious. What now?


GV, I know you missed the boat on this one, but don't be thick; Ragnos >>>>> Sidious. The whole "Omfg Jaden beet him!" argument falls apart because it wasn't Ragnos he beat, it was Tavion's battered body being possessed by Ragnos' 5000 year old spirit.

PurpleSaber
Originally posted by Illustrious
You gotta watch out for his A game.
You're right, I do. He might call me a prick.

Illustrious
Originally posted by PurpleSaber
You're right, I do. He might call me a prick.

Yes, and then ramble on about how you're "not on his level."

Rayvann
Originally posted by Illustrious
Yes, and then ramble on about how you're "not on his level."

Well he's not...

There is no number lower than zero... at least when speaking in absolute value.

PurpleSaber
haha

Janus Marius
Numan's level? Is that where lawyers and car salesmen fear to tread?

Rayvann
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Numan's level? Is that where lawyers and car salesmen fear to tread?

*steals quote*

Janus Marius
There's hobos and crack dealers who won't let Numan associate with them. I fear it's quite bad, actually.

Illustrious
Hey, even crack dealers have morals.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Janus Marius
GV, I know you missed the boat on this one, but don't be thick; Ragnos >>>>> Sidious. The whole "Omfg Jaden beet him!" argument falls apart because it wasn't Ragnos he beat, it was Tavion's battered body being possessed by Ragnos' 5000 year old spirit.

Yes I know...if it was Ragnos in his prime then that would be like the ultimate humiliation.

There is still no excuse, Ragnos with all his knowledge, not to mention he even had his scepter, and still lost to Jaden is inexcuseable. Ragnos is overrated, and his creator even says that he was never meant to be more powerful then Sidious. Can it be any more clear ?

Revolver Ocelot
He was never meant to be, but that doesn't mean he isn't.

At least, now.

tdtd
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Yes I know...if it was Ragnos in his prime then that would be like the ultimate humiliation.

There is still no excuse, Ragnos with all his knowledge, not to mention he even had his scepter, and still lost to Jaden is inexcuseable. Ragnos is overrated, and his creator even says that he was never meant to be more powerful then Sidious. Can it be any more clear ?


Um.. Ragnos was a 5,000 year old spirit that would have taken the entire Jedi Academy to defeat.. Ragnos is overrated? Or is it the fact that it is conclusive that he is the best of the best? Get it through your skull. He was the MOST powerful of the MOST powerful.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by tdtd
Um.. Ragnos was a 5,000 year old spirit that would have taken the entire Jedi Academy to defeat.. Ragnos is overrated? Or is it the fact that it is conclusive that he is the best of the best? Get it through your skull. He was the MOST powerful of the MOST powerful.

Oh really, the WHOLE Jedi Academy? Yet Jaden won by himself? Make arguments with some sense behind them then we'll talk.

tdtd
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Oh really, the WHOLE Jedi Academy? Yet Jaden won by himself? Make arguments with some sense behind them then we'll talk.


First of all, youre talking about a video game which isn't exactly canon. Secondly, if you consider it canon then you can remember the part where Luke was frightened and said "It is going to take the whole Academy to stop this". Meaning the whole academy would have to contend with just his ghost, imagine the destruction he would cause if he was alive. Oh I also forgot that you don't have a clue concerning the concept of a storyline, in which Jaden defeated a weak force user in Tavion, who had Ragnos spirit in her... Wow, yea that makes Ragnos look terrible, good one.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by tdtd
First of all, youre talking about a video game which isn't exactly canon.

Secondly, if you consider it canon then you can remember the part where Luke was frightened and said "It is going to take the whole Academy to stop this". Meaning the whole academy would have to contend with just his ghost, imagine the destruction he would cause if he was alive.


Oh I also forgot that you don't have a clue concerning the concept of a storyline, in which Jaden defeated a weak force user in Tavion, who had Ragnos spirit in her... Wow, yea that makes Ragnos look terrible, good one.

1. Its canon, not very high level but still canon.


2. Yes, though apparently it didnt take the whole academy did it?


3. I addressed this in an earlier post, read up.

Borbarad
Originally posted by tdtd
First of all, youre talking about a video game which isn't exactly canon. Secondly, if you consider it canon then you can remember the part where Luke was frightened and said "It is going to take the whole Academy to stop this". Meaning the whole academy would have to contend with just his ghost, imagine the destruction he would cause if he was alive. Oh I also forgot that you don't have a clue concerning the concept of a storyline, in which Jaden defeated a weak force user in Tavion, who had Ragnos spirit in her... Wow, yea that makes Ragnos look terrible, good one.

Err....no.
Luke thought that it would need the entirety of the Academy to go and try fight a living Ragnos - since the plan was to ressurrect him using his sceptre.
And this quote alone puts Ragnos far above DE Sidious.

kamikz
Originally posted by Borbarad
Err....no.
Luke thought that it would need the entirety of the Academy to go and try fight a living Ragnos - since the plan was to ressurrect him using his sceptre.
And this quote alone puts Ragnos far above DE Sidious.

...And Luke's words right before he said that explains it pretty well, "We have no clue of his powers" or something similar to that. Luke had no idea on what level of power Ragnos was, and I bet he didn't want to take any risks.
And Luke didn't specify anything like, "everyone in the academy has to take on Ragnos at the same time", he just said they would need the whole academy to stop him which could also include his army. Like in one place in Half-Life 2, a character says that they will need help from all the people in the city to stop Dr Breen, but are they talking about facing him in battle? No, they are talking about stopping him from controlling the Combine forces.
And it could also be considered that because some dark jedi dedicate their whole lifes to revive a dead sith lord whos power or midichlorians count is not mesured, then he could proove a large threat, one that they might not know how to counter, or that his power combined with them would be too great.

Some moments before Luke also said that the academy still had very few students. Many were probably still younglings or barley trained. Mabey he ment that they had to send out all the jedi they got to defeat this threat, like the Germans sent out young boys when the Allies had reached Germany because there was to much at stake.

tdtd
What Nai said.

kamikz
I belive Ragnos is the most powerful too, but Luke's words wasent really true, he didn't know shit about Ragnos.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by tdtd
What Nai said.

Nai wasnt agreeing with you...


He did say 'That puts Ragnos above DE Sidious'...Ill challenge him on that if he wants to argue it. Kamikz agrees Luke doesnt know anything about Ragnos.


So anyways if you have no arguments of your own, tdtd, then go home.

tdtd
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nai wasnt agreeing with you...


He did say 'That puts Ragnos above DE Sidious'...Ill challenge him on that if he wants to argue it. Kamikz agrees Luke doesnt know anything about Ragnos.


So anyways if you have no arguments of your own, tdtd, then go home.


Nai added to what I already said and corrected me on 1 thing, reading comprehension is your friend.

IKC
Originally posted by Illustrious
Again, Nai, I've never even seen you so much as concede a point. You'll argue until you're blue in the face even when I've proven you wrong. You won't concede that there's ever any facts because you haven't perceived them. Simply because you don't agree with my points, they are somehow false. You haven't established there is even a correlation, much less a causation. You haven't demonstrated any understanding of statistics, you've even CONTRADICTED YOURSELF with the Jedi Archives. But no, you're right. Jedi in TOTJ don't use armor. Jedi in TOTJ all use Niman. Jedi in TOTJ suck. PT Jedi pwn.

Yeah, live in your ignorant bliss. Your observation and interpretation is somehow superior to mine, your word is somehow superior to the narrator.

I guess if you still can't see the light, we're going to have to agree to disagree, as all you do is churn out broken records of what you already said without once giving me a context.

Ditto, again.

tdtd
I've noticed that half of the people on this forum hate TOTJ, and the other half hate anything involving the movies, and after the movies.. Interesting variety of people.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by tdtd
Nai added to what I already said and corrected me on 1 thing, reading comprehension is your friend.

The whole point of his post was correcting you. Remove head from thy ass.

tdtd
The whole point of his post was to correct me? Really? Read the post again and stop embarassing yourself.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by tdtd
The whole point of his post was to correct me? Really? Read the post again and stop embarassing yourself.

Borbarads response to your post:

'Err....no.'

I couldnt of put it better.

tdtd
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
The whole point of his post was correcting you. Remove head from thy ass.



I thought this was your point? Errr no was his whole post? Or was it a small addition to something else he wanted to say?
1. think
2. type
3. repeat

Deception
GV, you fail to show how Naga Sadow's Tangible Illusions which kill and alone almost took over the Republic and his ability to destroy a Star are not on par with DE Sidious.

I've already argued this before, a Great Sith Sword is much heavier than your average lightsaber, adding ontop of that the Ancient Sith are able to wield them as quickly and agile as a Sith/Jedi wield a lightsaber, you also have to consider the terrible powers that the Ancient Sith possessed, Sadow showed that almost by himself, he could destroy the republic and conquer the Galaxy, him losing was only due to the fact he was betrayed. Now this is the guy who isn't hesitant on betraying anyone, yet he feared Ragnos so much, that a Ragnos on his deathbed frightened him to the extent he didn't kill him, remember the Sith Tradition:
Whoever is powerful enough to kill their Master shall take their place.

Yet this soley means Ragnos was undefeated and the strongest of the Ancient Sith. Notice how starwars.com quotes:

Part I: A Golden Age
Time frame: 5,000 B.B.Y.
Period name: The Great Hyperspace War

It is a time of great expansion in the Old Republic. The JEDI KNIGHTS continue to shine a light of hope into the dark unexplored areas of the galaxy, and the mapping of hyperspace is encouraged and trade routes are discovered; many by intrepid explorers like plucky siblings GAV and JORI DARAGON, who plot uncharted courses in their ship Starbreaker 12. Meanwhile, on the far side of the galaxy, the Sith Empire has grown powerful through centuries of dark Force wielding and magic and the hundred-year rule of the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, MARKA RAGNOS. The ruler's death leads to a power vacuum, and two leaders emerge at Ragnos' grave on the mausoleum planet of Korriban. After a bloody duel, NAGA SADOW and LUDO KRESSH's fight for destiny is interrupted with the unannounced arrival of Starbreaker 12, and the hapless Daragons are captured immediately.

Now we have been given sources on Naga Sadow directly and indirectly.
The direct sources are stated above. Now consider Exar Kun, yes he was a prodigy, and yes he was immensely powerful, but know how after he learnt Sadow's teachings to a certain extent, he was strong enough to batter down all the TOTJ Jedi Masters, he was able to walk into the heart of Coruscant and rescue Ulic and kill Vodo.

On another note, by your logic of Ragnos possessing Tavion and then being beaten by Jaden, you can also say Kun is weak enough to be destroyed by 12 Padawans, is that logical? No, your logic is not "infallible" if anything its fallacious.

GV, just as Numan and Lightsnake tried, your opinions are not fact and thus the universal agreement, is established fact so therefore, i suggest you stop trying to promote DE Sidious.

tdtd
Amen

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