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Which team wins?

I am tempted to say Traya since she slapped around three Jedi masters, each of which were stronger than any member on the (AOTC) PT Jedi council (with the exception of Yoda and Mace).

Factor in her instantkill, and the fact that none of the members on the PT council are strong enough to resist a technique "born of the ancient sith", in which "there is no defence," the battle seems guaranteed in Traya's favour.

So in the end I say Traya wins.

I think the technique Kreia was referring to, to which there is no defense, is the technique used my Nihilus, not Traya's.

Traya's technique seems very much a variation of Nihilus' technique. I don't think any one in the PT council is strong enough to resist it. Not to mention they woudn't be able to get of the floor to try a counter attack. Plo Koon, Cin Drallig, and Kit Fisto would be thrown out the windows in the council room. Yoda and Mace would be shot down.

what makes you the assume that she's going to be able to use that on powerful jedi such as Yoda and Mace? And her technique wasn't a variation of Nihilus' at all. They are two different techniques. Hers is an instakill while Nihilus just eats the force. I don't think Traya can just whip it out anytime she wants either.

When she has regained her power in the darkside, she uses the technique casually.

The technique is described to literally suck the force out of its victim. Having seen it work against three renowned masters in the Jedi Order without even so much of an ounce of resistance, I have little doubt that Yoda and Mace would be shrivelled into prunes.

I agree with zephiel7 here, there is no proof that the Jedi Masters that Kreia killed were weaker than the PT Jedi Masters, although the PT Jedi like Mace and Yoda may possess superior saber skills, their force potential and ability don't have that much of a difference.

Yoda and Mace have shown no defense against, any more reformed and strong techniques of the Dark Side, its likely they don't even have knowledge of such techniques, Mace was demolished by Sith lightning and Yoda could barely resist Sidious's lightning, and we are talking your average Sith lightning, not any special technique

AotC Council? Mace and Yoda might be able to pull this off, just shove the green and purple sabers ASAP in her face and she might not be able to get an instakill off...

But for her to win, I guess she HAS to start instakilling like crazy right when she walks in the room. I don't see her coming out alive if she attempts to engage any of the better ones in saber combat.

unless a Plo Koon fanboy manages to invent some teh 1337 Koon skillzors i don't see the Council winning if Kreia instakills Yoda, Mace, Kit and etc.

Keep in mind, it only takes 1 light sabre to kill you. Wiether its stabbed directly at you, or thrown at you from 30 yards away, your dead. Can Traya instakill all of the members before 1 of them manages to hurl their light sabre at her?

Personally, I see her losing this. She's not going to take down Yoda with any manner of ease and adding people like Windu into the fray is going to be very, very hard for her.

She loses this.

right

Couldn't she just kill them with Force Drain? or can she only use that on one Jedi at a time?

Originally posted by Traya
Personally, I see her losing this. She's not going to take down Yoda with any manner of ease and adding people like Windu into the fray is going to be very, very hard for her.

She loses this.

W00t! Teh Traya speeks1!

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Keep in mind, it only takes 1 light sabre to kill you. Wiether its stabbed directly at you, or thrown at you from 30 yards away, your dead. Can Traya instakill all of the members before 1 of them manages to hurl their light sabre at her?

Yes, she doesn't have the force mastery to compete with all of them. Individually, I'd say she outclasses them, but together? This is just overkill, you've got Yoda, a guy who would prove to be a serious challenge on his own to her, and Windu, who is likewise. She'll die.

*Nods head in agreement.*

I agree, but you all also have to realize that its like comparing apples to oranges. The counsil members and traya, were written by different authors and in some cases, without the knowledge of the others. Like she was powerful in her era, but noone from her era has been compared to PT-OT character before In any kind of reference (that Im aware of at least). We dont know where GL would put them against "ancient" sith, and the EU authors kinda have free range on what thir characters can do.

But in the end, I say she gets overwhelmed rather quickly. Y

Traya walked into the room in KOTOR 2 and absolutely demolished Vrook, Zez Kai, and Kavar. She threw them on their asses with not even the slightest hint of effort, and afterwards sucked them of the force with almost comical ease. All of them had their lightsabers drawn, but they could not pull anything on her.

All three of these guys were reknowned masters by the way. Probably Vrook and Kavar were included in the top few of the KOTOR era, Zez kai not so much.

But there was only 3 of 'em.

If she instakills three random ones, she might be doing them a favor by taking out Trebor and the like. And we don't know if she can "autofire" this instakill, or if there's a "cooldown" effect. We've seen her utilize it on three Masters... can she do it on more? If so, why didn't she just go around instakilling everyone against her?

She might be able to get a few out of the way, but once one or two of 'em get close I doubt she'll walk out alive.

But I see her winning if she manages to take both Yoda and/or Mace first. The other big guns like Anakin or Obi-Wan haven't emerged yet, and the others will likely fall to her pure force powers (She's like a more powerful rots Sidious)

She'd find some way to persuade them to not attack her and then she'd unleash a Lightning Storm on every one of their sorry asses, killing them all.

Overkill I think....

Traya may be powerful, but she cant take the entire council. I could be wrong though.

Yes, overkill.

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Persuade them? this is a vs. match, so shes going to enter the Tempel with the intent of killing the council. Yoda and mace will sense this liek 20 minutes before she even leaves her cab and prepare for a fight. Besides you can't persuade an angry black man unless you use money or other tempting worldy items.

You mean just like Yoda and Mace sensed Sidious' plan to turn Anakin, destroy the Jedi with two hundred thousand of their own soldiers and then his plan to dominate the Galaxy?

No, they wouldn't sense a single thing. Kreia would form her apperance into a Jedi like she did with the Exile (Who was apparently more powerful than Revan) and persuade them to stop the attack. Then she'd storm the entire room.



Mace would not get angry. That's where you seem to miss out.

She'll enter the temple with the intent to kill them, but she wouldn't be stupid enough to suddenly ignite her saber and say "Bring it!".



Please.

Bah, Mace won't be won ovah!

He'd be like "Take a seat, you're on this council but we do not grant you the rank of Master" and she'd be like "..." and he'd be like "A SITH LAWD?! This party's over!"

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
But there was only 3 of 'em.

If she instakills three random ones, she might be doing them a favor by taking out Trebor and the like. And we don't know if she can "autofire" this instakill, or if there's a "cooldown" effect. We've seen her utilize it on three Masters... can she do it on more? If so, why didn't she just go around instakilling everyone against her?

She might be able to get a few out of the way, but once one or two of 'em get close I doubt she'll walk out alive.

But I see her winning if she manages to take both Yoda and/or Mace first. The other big guns like Anakin or Obi-Wan haven't emerged yet, and the others will likely fall to her pure force powers (She's like a more powerful rots Sidious)

In the Malachor Academy we see her use her instantkill against nine or so of sion's sith minions. I believe she can do the same thing wiht the pT Jedi Council

Yeah, but they were just that, nine minions. Underlings. They weren't the 10 or so best Masters in the Order.

Many of these "masters" were taken down by clone troopers. I have a feeling, Kreia will not have too much trouble.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Yeah, but they were just that, nine minions. Underlings. They weren't the 10 or so best Masters in the Order.

Well, Kreia has never really appeared that she was trying...ever...who knows what the limits are to her capabilities?

Indeed she massacred three VERY strong masters with "comical ease." Afterwards her instantkill took down several sith warriors trained by Sion. She made it look like a walk in the park really...so I it just seems that the PT council doesn't stand much of a chance.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Indeed she massacred three VERY strong masters with "comical ease." Afterwards her instantkill took down several sith warriors trained by Sion. She made it look like a walk in the park really...so I it just seems that the PT council doesn't stand much of a chance.

Yoda will be a problem I think....though its altogether confusing really.

Meh, we don't know the limits of it, or whether she can do it to all 10 of them. She did it to 3 Jedi Masters who are on par with the ones on PT Council, and did it to nine lesser warriors, but never to the magnitude of 10 Jedi Council Members. Her instantkill is an unknown at this point really, but it's the only thing that can pull her through this one.

Many of these "masters" were taken down by clone troopers. I have a feeling, Kreia will not have too much trouble.

Backstabbing and being overwhelmed. In most of their cases, anyone would have died.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Indeed she massacred three VERY strong masters with "comical ease." Afterwards her instantkill took down several sith warriors trained by Sion. She made it look like a walk in the park really...so I it just seems that the PT council doesn't stand much of a chance.

Yes, she kileld THREE strong masters. how about nine? three times as much people.

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Yes, she kileld THREE strong masters. how about nine? three times as much people.

That math might apply if she was actually trying when she killed the three masters...but it was as though she was stomping ants really.

^ what he said

She was fighting back a yawn when she killed three Jedi council members. Nine may cause her to actually break a sweat. If you get my meaning.

She was trying. You guys are making it look more effortless than it actually was. She raised her hand, flapped it and they went down. Pretty much the same as any force technique.

Anyways, she can easily dispose of 3 guys and get owned by the remaining 7. She needs to isolate Depa, Mace, Yoda and Fisto first... but who would she kill first? Would she know who to aim for?

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
She was trying. You guys are making it look more effortless than it actually was. She raised her hand, flapped it and they went down. Pretty much the same as any force technique.

Anyways, she can easily dispose of 3 guys and get owned by the remaining 7. She needs to isolate Depa, Mace, Yoda and Fisto first... but who would she kill first? Would she know who to aim for?

No...It was too fast and effortless, like stomping ants.

If jedi are nothing but ants to her, what does it matter if there are a few more???

Exactly. Two of them make some attempt at blocking her attacks while the rest would get pwned so hard it woudn't be funny.

No...It was too fast and effortless, like stomping ants.

Again, where are you getting "effortless" from? Definately not from her facial expressions. If one could even judge them.

Yoda's first push against Sidious was also "fast". Alot of Force techniques are done in the instant. It's not like in DBZ where they charge up power.

The point is, we've never seen her demonstrate anywhere near the amout of power it would take to kill 10 jedi council members at once. She may have that power stored up in her, but that remains to be seen. You can't look at something and say it's effortless, just because it was succesful.

Again I wouldn't put a Jedi like Kit Fisto too much above one of Sions minions. Traya would most likely take this. The instantkill was shown to work simultaneously on nine force users.

Really? Kit rivalled Obi-Wan, fought Ventress (Jedi assasin like Sion) to a near-standstill, even though she won, and was one of the best duelists in the Order.

I have no reason to believe them to be any above average. Kit, on the other hand, along with pretty much every Council Member, was easily above average.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
No...It was too fast and effortless, like stomping ants.

Again, where are you getting "effortless" from? Definately not from her facial expressions. If one could even judge them.

Yoda's first push against Sidious was also "fast". Alot of Force techniques are done in the instant. It's not like in DBZ where they charge up power.

The point is, we've never seen her demonstrate anywhere near the amout of power it would take to kill 10 jedi council members at once. She may have that power stored up in her, but that remains to be seen. You can't look at something and say it's effortless, just because it was succesful.

She raised her hand...they died....

Im afraid that is effortless, no struggle whatsoever.

She raised her hand...they died....

Yes.

Im afraid that is effortless, no struggle whatsoever.

This isn't proof she can replicate the feat on a larger scale. She may be able to do such, but that remains to be seen.

yes you are probing to i the unknown, and as soon as she kills one the other 8 will instantly force push and pull her like a rag doll. I give her about .6 seconds before she gets slammed against the wall by 8 of the best jedi during the era.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
She raised her hand...they died....

Yes.

Im afraid that is effortless, no struggle whatsoever.

This isn't proof she can replicate the feat on a larger scale. She may be able to do such, but that remains to be seen.

There isnt proof, but since she didnt struggle at all with three, its reasonable to assume she could take out a good deal more.

Ocelot, she didn't struggle as in the Jedi masters were NOT even able to get UP. If she can waste them that bad, she is basically untouchable against three STRONGER Jedi masters.

Do you agree with me that Vrook and Kavar are about equal to Yoda and Mace, and that Zez Kai El was above any other PT council member of the time?

Lets look at the context. After the war led by Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun, the Jedi KNEW how to deal with Sith. They were prepared, there force powers were very offensive and militant, and the masters probably had more knowledge in the darkside than the PT council. Not to mention facing two subsequent wars by Mandalorians, a Sith War by Darth Revan and Darth Malak (who literally had academies dedicated to rearing the strongest Dark Jedi available) , and assassination teams sent by Sion and Nihilus, these three masters thought they were prepared for anything.

Considering all this, Traya walked in the room, stood in the exact same position (Didn't even MOVE), and completely butchered them. They hardly had enough time to speak before they were instantPWNED. They couldn't even resist her wave. Vrook, who it seems was the strongest out of the three managed to stand up for a brief period of time, but was thrown away like a rock again.

Ocelot, she didn't struggle as in the Jedi masters were NOT even able to get UP. If she can waste them that bad, she is basically untouchable against three STRONGER Jedi masters.

Ah, but we do not know the nature of the technique, whether it's something that can be stressed. Compare the force choke to, say, Force Lightning. No one looks strained when force gripping someone, but Lightning is different. Dooku did not look strained when force gripping Obi-Wan, can he now force grib Anakin, Fisto, Mace, Depa, Yoda all at once? Doubt it.

Do you agree with me that Vrook and Kavar are about equal to Yoda and Mace, and that Zez Kai El was above any other PT council member of the time?

Vrook can be argued to be on Mace's level. Not sure about Kavar though, his role was strikingly similar to Fisto's on Geonosis. Zez, what has he done to be impressive?

Lets look at the context. After the war led by Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun, the Jedi KNEW how to deal with Sith. They were prepared, there force powers were very offensive and militant, and the masters probably had more knowledge in the darkside than the PT council. Not to mention facing two subsequent wars by Mandalorians, a Sith War by Darth Revan and Darth Malak (who literally had academies dedicated to rearing the strongest Dark Jedi available) , and assassination teams sent by Sion and Nihilus, these three masters thought they were prepared for anything.

Yep, but comparing the Jedi in KOTOR and the JEdi in TOTJ is difficult. The KOTOR Jedi are similar to the PT Jedi, they are not elite warriors but peace keepers who stress pacifism. But they are also militant and martial, and thus would have knowledge of the Sith they were facing. Vrook probably did have a greater knowledge of the dark side over Mace, but I doubt that for Yoda who's been studying the Force for 800 years.

Considering all this, Traya walked in the room, stood in the exact same position (Didn't even MOVE), and completely butchered them. They hardly had enough time to speak before they were instantPWNED. They couldn't even resist her wave. Vrook, who it seems was the strongest out of the three managed to stand up for a brief period of time, but was thrown away like a rock again.

It's hard to quantify all this if we don't know the nature of the technique. Who knows? Maybe this force drain was strengthened due to the Exile's presence? Maybe she truly has the power to instantpwn everyone? It's really hard to work with what we have. But if the instantkill is of the nature you're claiming, she does win this one fairly easy.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Ocelot, she didn't struggle as in the Jedi masters were NOT even able to get UP. If she can waste them that bad, she is basically untouchable against three STRONGER Jedi masters.

Ah, but we do not know the nature of the technique, whether it's something that can be stressed. Compare the force choke to, say, Force Lightning. No one looks strained when force gripping someone, but Lightning is different. Dooku did not look strained when force gripping Obi-Wan, can he now force grib Anakin, Fisto, Mace, Depa, Yoda all at once? Doubt it.

Do you agree with me that Vrook and Kavar are about equal to Yoda and Mace, and that Zez Kai El was above any other PT council member of the time?

Vrook can be argued to be on Mace's level. Not sure about Kavar though, his role was strikingly similar to Fisto's on Geonosis. Zez, what has he done to be impressive?

Lets look at the context. After the war led by Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun, the Jedi KNEW how to deal with Sith. They were prepared, there force powers were very offensive and militant, and the masters probably had more knowledge in the darkside than the PT council. Not to mention facing two subsequent wars by Mandalorians, a Sith War by Darth Revan and Darth Malak (who literally had academies dedicated to rearing the strongest Dark Jedi available) , and assassination teams sent by Sion and Nihilus, these three masters thought they were prepared for anything.

Yep, but comparing the Jedi in KOTOR and the JEdi in TOTJ is difficult. The KOTOR Jedi are similar to the PT Jedi, they are not elite warriors but peace keepers who stress pacifism. But they are also militant and martial, and thus would have knowledge of the Sith they were facing. Vrook probably did have a greater knowledge of the dark side over Mace, but I doubt that for Yoda who's been studying the Force for 800 years.

Considering all this, Traya walked in the room, stood in the exact same position (Didn't even MOVE), and completely butchered them. They hardly had enough time to speak before they were instantPWNED. They couldn't even resist her wave. Vrook, who it seems was the strongest out of the three managed to stand up for a brief period of time, but was thrown away like a rock again.

It's hard to quantify all this if we don't know the nature of the technique. Who knows? Maybe this force drain was strengthened due to the Exile's presence? Maybe she truly has the power to instantpwn everyone? It's really hard to work with what we have. But if the instantkill is of the nature you're claiming, she does win this one fairly easy.


1. The difference is that force choke takes time to kill an enemy, and we never see it used against a respectable force user so its reasonable to assume it can be resisted.


2. I think this is reasonable, Vrook is around Mace...Kavar is weaker probably.


3. I agree with this.


4.

-We know 3 powerful masters were dropped with a wave of a hand...

-It is unreasonable to assume the technique can only be used when the Exile is around without any evidence or it even being suggested.

-So we have established that if Kreias technique is indeed as powerful as it seems to be than Kreia wins this battle?

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Bah, Mace won't be won ovah!

He'd be like "Take a seat, you're on this council but we do not grant you the rank of Master" and she'd be like "..." and he'd be like "A SITH LAWD?! This party's over!"

LOLLLL!!!

Ahhhh.....that my friend, was classic...

Originally posted by Antediluvian
You mean just like Yoda and Mace sensed Sidious' plan to turn Anakin, destroy the Jedi with two hundred thousand of their own soldiers and then his plan to dominate the Galaxy?

No, they wouldn't sense a single thing. Kreia would form her apperance into a Jedi like she did with the Exile (Who was apparently more powerful than Revan) and persuade them to stop the attack. Then she'd storm the entire room.



Mace would not get angry. That's where you seem to miss out.

She'll enter the temple with the intent to kill them, but she wouldn't be stupid enough to suddenly ignite her saber and say "Bring it!".



Please.
The council would definitely sense Kreia's true intentions, but even if they didn't they would still be wary.

Plus Mace Windu wouldn't trust Traya. "It's very dangerous putting those 2 together. I don't think the boy can handle it. I don't trust him" Also in SWAT he says "How can I trust a guy who can't eat a good old fashion American Hot Dog." And in Freedom Land he doesn't trust the white police. Samuel L. Jackson doesn't trust anybody.

Anyway, I think that the council would just overwhelm Traya.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1. The difference is that force choke takes time to kill an enemy, and we never see it used against a respectable force user so its reasonable to assume it can be resisted.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4500/oldrepublic19192fr.jpg

I guess he's not a respectable force user. Neither was Obi-Wan, huh?

pwnd. My question is did Kun use force choke on him or what?

He's grabbing his throat. That's my guess.

Yea I've always wondered about that, how a simple force choke killed Odan Urr.. But I guess at 1,000+ years old, any physically demanding activity, such as getting choked, will kill you. I just don't see Kun doing the force grip hand gesture..

Well, it's also possible that Kun just overrode his force defense, like Dooku did to Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Well, it's also possible that Kun just overrode his force defense, like Dooku did to Obi-Wan.

*bell dings*

Correct, sir.

That's what I'm seeing. It's not like Kun "Snuck up" on Odan- Urr with the force choke.

Kun should be ashamed of himself. Trying to fight senior citizens. Shame Shame

Originally posted by Janus Marius
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4500/oldrepublic19192fr.jpg

I guess he's not a respectable force user. Neither was Obi-Wan, huh?

Erm does it say he got force choked? Doesnt look like force choke to me...

And Obi-Wan never got force choked.

Dooku force gripped him.

And Odan is grasping at his . Looks like a force choke to me.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Dooku force gripped him.

And Odan is grasping at his . Looks like a force choke to me.

Dooku force pushed him, there is a difference.

He looks to me like he was just in a position of anguish, no proof it was a choke.

He's old what do you want/

Dooku force pushed him, there is a difference.

... No. Watch the scene again, he "grips" Obi-Wan in the air, kicks Anakin back, and tosses Obi-Wan into the railing.

He did not use force push.

Definately. And the difference between a choke and a grip is minimal. Don't be dense, GV; Dooku choked Obi-Wan. And by all appearances, either Exar Kun killed Odan-Urr with his amazing fingers, or he choked his ass too.

Everyone is choking it seems.

Do you guys really think that's a force choke? Kun's hand isn't even in the shape of a choke, it's completely flat. And Odun Urr is in no way grasping at his neck.

He doesn't have to shape his hand like that. Vader choked people without lifting his hand at all (Admiral Ozzel was it?) in ESB.

Good observation. It even says in a book somewhere that the entire idea of hand motion is irrelevant and simply for the user's benefit.

True, I didn't really think of that.

Yeah, Luke didn't need to either in ROTS.

I have my doubts that it's a simple choke, really. Odan's hand is much closer to his face than his neck, and it doesn't seem to be clutching at much of anything.

The details of the attack itself aren't exceedingly relevant: the only important aspect is that Kun's attack broke through Odan's defenses.

Originally posted by Faunus
The details of the attack itself aren't exceedingly relevant: the only important aspect is that Kun's attack broke through Odan's defenses.

Of course. I was just stating it just to state it.

I wonder why I've never seen Force Crush anywhere but in KOTOR. That seems like a badass force attack to have, almost like an instakill. wonder why nobody had it.

Doesn't Mace perform force crush on Grievous?

Originally posted by tdtd
I wonder why I've never seen Force Crush anywhere but in KOTOR. That seems like a badass force attack to have, almost like an instakill. wonder why nobody had it.

I would do a force neck snap, personally. Just a bunch of twisted necks everywhere I go. Darth Chiropractor.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I would do a force neck snap, personally. Just a bunch of twisted necks everywhere I go. Darth Chiropractor.

Why, it's the Vulcan death grip!

Yeah, that too. Only I'd pinch arteries and drop people like flies.

lol, I was being serious, Force Crush is a real force power is it not, or is it only gameplay.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yeah, that too. Only I'd pinch arteries and drop people like flies.

Yarrr... Darth Aorta.

bastards

This smells of Lightsnake. Didn't he say that Sidious could pinch off a nerve inside Marka Ragnos?

Regarding force powers, I highly doubt that they're given ridiculous names like "force speed" or "force jump" in the canon. That's only how we identify them outside of the mythos.

Ah well I was speaking from KOTOR when you can pick up a person, and snap him in half, all with the force

Presumably a powerful force user could do that. I don't see any limitation other than the defense of the force user. Also, I suspect that jedi and sith can be taken off guard by attacks, such as when Obi-Wan was force pushed or choked. Actually, in ROTS, Obi-Wan is force pushed by Dooku and choked and he's helpless, but later on he can hold his own with Anakin. It's entirely possible that Dooku's knowledge and/or power in the Force just outstrips Obi-Wan's.

interesting

Originally posted by IKC
This smells of Lightsnake. Didn't he say that Sidious could pinch off a nerve inside Marka Ragnos?

Regarding force powers, I highly doubt that they're given ridiculous names like "force speed" or "force jump" in the canon. That's only how we identify them outside of the mythos.

Yeah, I believe he did, but I guess he failed to recognize that Ragnos probably could do the same thing if it were the case.

I can't imagine Star Wars if all the battles consisted of who pinches off a vital nerve first.

Darth Neurosurgeon wins every time. Force Seizure.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Darth Neurosurgeon wins every time. Force Seizure.

Nein! Darth Heart Disease has him beat.

Dude, Darth Montezuma's Revenge can make Darth Heart Disease cry.