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Setting: In the Death Star II's Emperor's "suite"

Dooku wastes Malak. Then while Bane and Kyp are duking it out. Dooku comes in, and they overwhelm Bane.

Originally posted by DarthBanevv
Dooku wastes Malak.

I love this whole "Malak is teh suxor!" bullshit.

Never mind that he was known to be a superb warrior and front line warrior during the Mandalorian Wars.

Never mind that he was powerful enough to control the Star Forge and not be destroyed by it.

Never mind the fact that he is taller and has a longer reach than Dooku which may not seem like much, but if you know anything about dueling you would know that it can make a difference.



Um... so Dooku is gonna overwhelm his own team member? Great reading comprehension.


Anyways this is all moot anyways. Kyp is a member of the NJO Gayness Confederation and has been drugged with uber powers just below Luke's and therefore wins by default.

That's unclear. It's entirely unknown whether someone has to be sufficiently powerful to control the SF or if there are other prerequisites.



Honestly, NJO powers aren't even that impressive. We need to examine them again.

Originally posted by IKC
That's unclear. It's entirely unknown whether someone has to be sufficiently powerful to control the SF or if there are other prerequisites.

I was under the impression that the holocron on Korriban mentioned the fact that others had tried to control the Star Forge and where destroyed. Considering that when I played the game that's what I recall. Of course I could be remembering wrong.

Anyways Star Forge aside what I was trying mainly to point out was that Malak does not get wasted by Dooku. Beaten perhaps (and I said perhaps) after a long a grueling battle, but not wasted.

Originally posted by Rayvann
I love this whole "Malak is teh suxor!" bullshit.

Never mind that he was known to be a superb warrior and front line warrior during the Mandalorian Wars.

Never mind that he was powerful enough to control the Star Forge and not be destroyed by it.

Never mind the fact that he is taller and has a longer reach than Dooku which may not seem like much, but if you know anything about dueling you would know that it can make a difference.



Um... so Dooku is gonna overwhelm his own team member? Great reading comprehension.


Anyways this is all moot anyways. Kyp is a member of the NJO Gayness Confederation and has been drugged with uber powers just below Luke's and therefore wins by default. Mistakes like this happen all the time. I meant and they overwhelm Kyp.

Originally posted by DarthBanevv
Mistakes like this happen all the time. I meant and they overwhelm Kyp.

Suggestion, preview your posts before you post. Then you avoid mistakes like this.

But, again, it does not state they were not sufficiently powerful enough, merely that they were destroyed. Again, we do not know for sure that a certain level of power is a prerequisite.

IKC NJO powers are impressive, however when you compare them to the Ancient Sith's and some of Kun's they are indeed pathetic.

For the others out there, notice how Sadow's 2 feats outclass every single NJO feat.

Malak and Dooku could go either way, same with Bane and Kyp. Bane is on tier with Revan and Traya IMO, so they could enter a long and potentially unresolved battle... Honestly I have no way of deciding this. I'm thinking the two Sith would have better cohesion than a Jedi+Sith.

IKC NJO powers are impressive, however when you compare them to the Ancient Sith's and some of Kun's they are indeed pathetic.

But really, when you think about it, they should. The Ancient Sith are centuries old warlords that spent 2000 years perfecting Dark Side magic. People like Kun and Nadd, the former of which had Anakin-ish potential, found their personal "notes", studied from them, and obviously became powerful themselves.

The NJO may be a talented generation in a warlike time, but they're rebuilding a broken Jedi Order. You can't really expect them to be extremely powerful yet. Even their grandmaster Luke would likely fall to any major TOTJ Sith Lord, save Ulic or Nadd.

Malak is younger, stronger, and faster than Dooku. Have you seen the way Dooku fights in the movies. He fights with grace, but there is no speed behind his movements. Its more strategic well placed jabs and parries. Malak seems like a Shien user, a style that is known to outpower Makashi users. Also part of Dooku's victory is because Obi Wan and Anakin never saw the Makashi style before (lightsaber to lightsaber style fighting was not popular in this time). Malak on the otherhand faced plenty of Jedi, many of which probably used the Makashi form)

Dooku is perhaps included in the top three of the PT time, but his skill and proficiency in the darkside is not as good as Malak's.

Lets look at the proof. What Dooku learned of the darkside was mostly self taught (ie lightning) and some of it was taught by Sidious (since Dooku was Sidious' *****, too bad cause Dooku be cooler).

Malak on the otherhand, learned much of his techniques at Malachor 5. He was also regarded for his force potential, much like Dooku. However the training at Malachor gives Malak the distinct edge.

Secondly Malak could control the Star Forge. I have explained this many times before, but it is filled with the force of an entire race. Many other dark jedi tried to control the Forge, but they were killed because it contained too much power.

DN Kyp Durron is exactly equal , in terms of power, to Bane. So I would say with Malak, Durron manages to pull out a victory.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Malak is younger, stronger, and faster than Dooku. Have you seen the way Dooku fights in the movies. He fights with grace, but there is no speed behind his movements. Its more strategic well placed jabs and parries. Malak seems like a Shien user, a style that is known to outpower Makashi users. Also part of Dooku's victory is because Obi Wan and Anakin never saw the Makashi style before (lightsaber to lightsaber style fighting was not popular in this time). Malak on the otherhand faced plenty of Jedi, many of which probably used the Makashi form)

Anakin and Obi-Wan are younger, faster, and stronger than Dooku. Until he blocks both of their two-handed blows with one arm at the same time. This is Anakin, who supported the combined weight of himself, Kenobi, and Palpatine without so much as a grunt. Please. If physical size and youthful vigor translated into victories, RoDV Vader would own Yoda's ass any day of the week.



Apparently you've read neither Light and Dark nor The Best Blades, in which Dooku proves without a doubt that he is one of the most formidable beings of any era (Ancient Sith excluded).



Erm, your point? If he learned by himself to Force choke someone, pick them up into the air, pull their lightsaber from them, and chuck them into a wall while lying down, then he's something of a prodigy on his own. If with a blast of two-handed lightning he can kill over half a dozen elite Kiffar guards, he's pretty damn powerful, too.



Learning from a larger source for a bit trumps eight decades of Force and lightsaber experience - thirteen years of which were spent in Sith training - then Nomi Sunrider would likely own Luke.



Exact quotes, if you will. How many other Jedi? How the hell does it contain the power of an entire race, and if so, what does this matter? Raynar possessed the combined potential of 375 planets' inhabitants.



Substantiate, and prove up. ''Exactly equal''? The hell is this?

The force also plays a part in dueling skill, but to completely disregard youth, strength, and agility from a lightsaber fight is simply naive. Exar Kun was not exactly the oldest guy in the world yet even at the age of around 25 he was tied with the best duelist of the order, Vodo Siosk Bask. Mace Windu's physical strength and stamina also helped him in his position as the best duelist in the order. About Vader, he has the strength component, however in terms of agility, he is totally lacking. Malak does not possess this disadvantage.





How, by defeating pansy Jedi knights who barely knew how to fight another lightsaber duelist? Elaborate please.



For the first part, Malak force choked two Jedi knights, threw his lightsaber on one of them, and shocked the other.

Half a dozen non force sensitive warriors. Please Darth Maul killed a whole bunch of black sun warriors and elite body guards. Again, against a Jedi, it is not an impressive feat.



Remember that Traya learned enough at Malachor to develop her instantkill technique. She was there for a relatively short amount of time, but that didn't stop her from picking up a hell of a lot. Again it has to do with not only talent but oppurtunity . Dooku may have had talent, but he was not able to capitalize on it since there was no where as rich as Malachor for him to learn about the dark side.



The Rakatans were a race powerful in the force, so powerful that they could afford to create ALL their technology with the force. The civilization fell because the Star Forge drained all the force from them. This is an important factor. Bastila, in a holocron, described how all other dark Jedi masters afterwards were killed by the Star Forge's power.

How does this help? Simple inference, if Malak was able to harness the dark side to such a great extent, it means that his power in the force, (ie, what he learned from Malachor 5) was considerable.

The quotes are from Bastila's holocron. The power of the Star Forge is described in a computer within the Rakatan temple. Malak himself also describes the Star Forge's power.




Heh, I am not arguing this too in depth, since I dont know enough to make a comparison between the two. However I am assuming since Bane was able to devise a thought bomb technique, and if he was able to orchestrate a gargantuan force storm, I would put him on equal footing with Kyp who "pulled" lightning from the sky,defeated a Vong Slayer, and a weaker Luke Skywalker.

My bad, by tied, I meant could contend with, the best Jedi duelist in the order.

Originally posted by zephiel7
The force also plays a part in dueling skill, but to completely disregard youth, strength, and agility from a lightsaber fight is simply naive. Exar Kun was not exactly the oldest guy in the world yet even at the age of around 25 he was tied with the best duelist of the order, Vodo Siosk Bask. Mace Windu's physical strength and stamina also helped him in his position as the best duelist in the order. About Vader, he has the strength component, however in terms of agility, he is totally lacking. Malak does not possess this disadvantage.

Anakin and Exar had raw talent and power, hence their legendary reputations. Anakin was a Jedi recognized even by mechanics in Cato Neimodia space, and Exar was considered by Vodo himself to be his most formidable student. But do you remember what happened the first time either of them faced their respective elders? Despite their vastly superior physical condition, Anakin got put on his ass - minus an arm - and Kun was tooled in mere seconds.

And I'm sure that there are physical specimens in the Jedi Order with strength that would put Mace Windu to shame, but would you see Tyvokka taking out Mace? Or since he has the shortest reach of anyone above the age of five, Yoda?



If Quinlan Vos is pansy, yeah. Obviously a part of my post you misunderstood:

''. . . Force choke someone, pick them up into the air, pull their lightsaber from them, and chuck them into a wall while lying down. . . ''

That refers to what he did to Vos, casually.



Something Dooku could probably replicate himself, although with class. Does that little scene when he smacks around Anakin and Obi-Wan in RotS ring any bells?



Did he electrocute them to death with a smile on his face? I recall him getting slashed in the back and arm by a nasty reptilian guard.



The nature of that particular attack is highly debatable.

Opportunity? You mean like keeping in check warriors like Asajj, Durge, and Grievous? You mean like teaching and occasionally tooling a whole host of Dark Jedi, including Quinlan Vos, Tol Skorr, and Vaapad practioner Sora Bulq?



That doesn't imply that Malak kept in check the power of the Rakatans, zephiel, so much as that he harnassed it.



Eh?

- Bane didn't devise the thought bomb attack plan: that was Kaan's ''genious,'' and it massacred the Sith as well.
- Bane's ''storm'' would have been powered by the combined power of dozens of Sith leaders, and while it would have ravaged the planet, it wouldn't have obliterated the enemy like Palpatine's did.
- Kyp was defeated by four slayers, and managed to take out two, I believe.
- He only incapacitated Luke with the added power of Exar Kun's corporeal form.

Originally posted by IKC
Honestly, NJO powers aren't even that impressive. We need to examine them again.


Oh Really? Find powers that are more impressive than in NJO besides that of the Ancient Sth , and no, they don't exist in the Exar Kun+Ulic era..

tdtd, are you deliberately out to provoke IKC?

No Janus, since IKC has shown to hate everything about NJO, I'm asking him to show me examples of more impressive powers than the NJO serious, other than GAOTS of course, since he seems to think that their powers aren't very impressive which of course is his own personal opinion and far from fact.

And you somehow think this ISN'T going to spark another back and forth between you two?

I think he knows the risk. But frankly, I think they both enjoy pissing eachother off.

Or do we...Hmmm.... And if I spark something who cares, I'm calling it as I see it.

Malak could probably take Dooku in a close one. Bane vs. Kyp is unknown and is speculation but I bet Bane beats Kyp faster than Malak beats Dooku and then Bane and Dooku together pwn Malak.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Malak could probably take Dooku in a close one. Bane vs. Kyp is unknown and is speculation but I bet Bane beats Kyp faster than Malak beats Dooku and then Bane and Dooku together pwn Malak.

How would Bane take out Kyp quicker? We know Kyp has more raw force abilities than Bane, and I would put Dooku equal to or above Malak.

Wow, after saying something like this, I'm not sure the post warrants a response.

First off, Bane didn't thought bomb anything. Kaan did it and it wiped out all of the Sith save Bane and his apprentice. The force storm was purely theoretical, he needed the force power of additional Sith Lords in order to ravage an entire planet, which is impressive enough, but not under his own power.

Kyp did not simply pull lightning from the sky. The fight was in a THUNDERSTORM. The Leviathan was the tallest object in the sky, and he already had his spear stuck in it and acting like a nice lightning rod. He got lucky, which in the universe of Star Wars is the "will of the Force."

And secondly, since when did similar level of force demonstration mean exactly equal combatants? Did the source tell you the two were equally difficult and required equal amounts of force power? No. You inferred it, and made your opinion fact.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Wow, after saying something like this, I'm not sure the post warrants a response.

First off, Bane didn't thought bomb anything. Kaan did it and it wiped out all of the Sith save Bane and his apprentice. The force storm was purely theoretical, he needed the force power of additional Sith Lords in order to ravage an entire planet, which is impressive enough, but not under his own power.

Kyp did not simply pull lightning from the sky. The fight was in a THUNDERSTORM. The Leviathan was the tallest object in the sky, and he already had his spear stuck in it and acting like a nice lightning rod. He got lucky, which in the universe of Star Wars is the "will of the Force."

And secondly, since when did similar level of force demonstration mean exactly equal combatants? Did the source tell you the two were equally difficult and required equal amounts of force power? No. You inferred it, and made your opinion fact.

Why would you call it luck Illustrious? I can say Palpatine survived by pure luck, Luke survived against his father and the emperor by pure luck, Ulic was "lucky" to not lose against Sylvar. Why would you even bring luck into this to diminish Kyp's feat? The term "luck" would spark endless debates on this forum. I agree with you on everything else.

It's luck because Kyp Durron didn't harness the heavens and make the lightning bolt strike the spear, tdtd. That's called being a benefactor of circumstance, or "Lucky bastard" if you want to get technical. There's nothing to suggest that it was under Kyp's own physical prowess or force power that made the lightning strike the spear, and certainly nothing that's worth noting in a versus match.

Ah so Palpatine was lucky to get the higher ground on Yoda, and lucky to not fall all the way down to the ground because he weighed more than Yoda... Ok..

Yes because if they had not reached the senate chamber Yoda would have disarmed him and killed him, but because they were in the senate chamber Sidious managed to force Yoda outside the pod and started tossing pods....but this is not the point, Sidious did stalemate/defeat Yoda because of luck and his power. You say it's because he weight more than Yoda that he managed to stay on the pod, yes that's true, but are you comparing Sidious weight to a bolt of lightning from the sky? At least weight is something that Sidious can affect....

No I'm not, and it was a stalemate not a defeat, even if you didn't mean to put it in there.

Originally posted by Wesker
It's luck because Kyp Durron didn't harness the heavens and make the lightning bolt strike the spear, tdtd. That's called being a benefactor of circumstance, or "Lucky bastard" if you want to get technical. There's nothing to suggest that it was under Kyp's own physical prowess or force power that made the lightning strike the spear, and certainly nothing that's worth noting in a versus match.

You and Illustrious act as if the Leviathan was casually hit by the lightning. In fact the comic let's Kyp think the following:

"I can use that storm. Like Streen can control the weather. With the force I can call down the lightning." And then the Leviathan is hit.

So it didn't happen because of his force powers ?
Somehow this never happens when I wave my hand in a thunderstorm. It was also new to me that a wooden spear would increase the chances to get hit by lightning.

And let's simply ignore the fact that Kyp, with less than a year of training and armed with only a wooden spear took down one of that creatures spawning of from Sith Alchemy that the Ancient Sith used as "superweapons" on their battlefields thinking that this "was easy enough" after the fight.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You and Illustrious act as if the Leviathan was casually hit by the lightning. In fact the comic let's Kyp think the following:

"I can use that storm. Like Streen can control the weather. With the force I can call down the lightning." And then the Leviathan is hit.

So it didn't happen because of his force powers ?
Somehow this never happens when I wave my hand in a thunderstorm. It was also new to me that a wooden spear would increase the chances to get hit by lightning.

And let's simply ignore the fact that Kyp, with less than a year of training and armed with only a wooden spear took down one of that creatures spawning of from Sith Alchemy that the Ancient Sith used as "superweapons" on their battlefields thinking that this "was easy enough" after the fight.

He was still using the power of the storm, not his own force powers.

I dont see why this fight gives him so much credit.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
He was still using the power of the storm, not his own force powers.


He was still controlling the lightning to make it hit the Leviathan



Yeah. Taking down a Sith creature that was used as "superweapon" by Ancient Sith armed with a wooden spear only is something that Jedi Master Regular "Joe" Anybody does on every 15th of a month.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He was still controlling the lightning to make it hit the Leviathan



Yeah. Taking down a Sith creature that was used as "superweapon" by Ancient Sith armed with a wooden spear only is something that Jedi Master Regular "Joe" Anybody does on every 15th of a month.

1. Controlling the lightning, not summoning it from his own power.


2. However big, its just a beast, not an intelligent opponent.. and he used the storm to kill it not his wooden spear.

There's still no logical reason for you to downplay Kyp's feat by claiming it was luck or it was the storm or the beast was unintelligent.

As I already said, "Bane vs. Kyp is unknown and is speculation". We don't know enough about Bane to do anything more than guess, which is what I did. IMO, Bane's probably about as strong as Revan, a little below DE Sidious, above Darth Sion. But I'm guessing.

Originally posted by tdtd
There's still no logical reason for you to downplay Kyp's feat by claiming it was luck or it was the storm or the beast was unintelligent.

So you mean he would have defeated it under any other circumstance? He fought it while it was the highest target in the skyline in a damn thunderstorm. The lightning already had a greater chance of striking the leviathan than ANYTHING ELSE.

So is Sidious uber because he can use this awesome phenomenon called "gravity"? "But he still used his force powers to throw the pods!" Is Kyle uber because he can use this incredible nexus of power called the Valley of the Jedi? "But he still swung that saber!"

Like it or not, Kyp benefited from the circumstances. Props on him being resourceful, but that's what you consider as luck: benefiting from the circumstance.

No I don't Illustrious...

Fanboy alert....

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Fanboy alert....

Stupid speculation/assumption... Go away, you're new..

Originally posted by tdtd
Stupid speculation/assumption... Go away, you're new..
New? Janus?

Ah I didn't realize who that was. It was a stupid comment either way.

Somebody sure speed reads.

yes because it has nothing to do with me not paying attention.