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Let's try this again.

This is the PT circuit; only generals from the PT era can qualify. This era includes from the time of Claok of Deception (Just before TPM) to ROTS.

First, the rules:

- Each general gets two thousand troops. They're divided like this: three parts infantry, one part artillery (if applicable, if not it reverts to infantry), and one part armor/tank (if applicable, if not it reverts to infantry).

- Generals do not partake in combat among each other, though they may defend themselves and their staff headquarters. They are considered to be immobile generals; that is, they remain in the HQ and do not accompany troops anywhere else for the duration of the battle.

- We vote on the generals, on the location, on the soldiers used, and on their equipment. PLEASE NOTE that the location MUST be taken into consideration, and that the equipment need not fit the party (For example, Clone Troopers can take up vibroswords for a battle, though their expertise with them is questionable). So vote once on one or all of those choices.

- Picking soldiers, weapons, etc. is a process of elimination. If Yoda gets picked and leads ewoks with slug guns, no one else gets ewoks or slug guns as a choice.

Now, for the lineup...

Generals include: Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ventress, and Grievous.

Locations include: Yavin, Dantooine, Hoth, Coruscant, Geonosis, Tatooine, Korriban, and Endor.

Armaments include (For infantry): Vibroswords, blastercarbines, brace of blaster pistols, heavy repeaters, boltcasters, blaster rifles, slug rounds (guns that use bullets), and primitive spears.

Soldiers include: Wookiees, Clone Troopers, space pirates (generic), ewoks, Gamorrean thugs, standard battle droids, Royal Naboo guards, and standard human militia.

Dooku's army on Yavin with his space pirates equipped with blaster rifles.

Mace Windu on Geonosis with Clone Troopers wielding heavy repeaters.

That would be the pwnz00rz.

We get to choose what each army has and stuff? Or am I lokign at it wrong? Anyway Yoda with Wookies with bolt casters. nd put him on Endor.

Essentially, I take a look at the general you picked, the weapons, the locale, and the warriors, and count it as one vote for each. So currently we have:

Mace- 1
Dooku - 1
Yoda- 1

Endor - 1
Yavin- 1
Geonosis - 1

Pirates - 1
Wookiees - 1
Clone troopers - 1

blaster rifles - 1
heavy repeaters - 1
boltcasters - 1

Remember, when one from each category reaches three votes, it's IN. That general and their equipment becomes the aggressor. Keep in mind, the first weapon voted three times goes to the aggressor, whether or not he has been voted in yet. Same with the first warriors voted in, etc. Next one to reach three votes is the defender.

Ah, well done. This should keep the factions in check.

I'll go with Yoda and his bolt-casting Wookies, but on Dantooine.

Mace- 1
Dooku - 1
Yoda- 2

Endor - 1
Yavin- 1
Geonosis - 1
Dantooine - 1

Pirates - 1
Wookiees - 2
Clone troopers - 1

blaster rifles - 1
heavy repeaters - 1
boltcasters - 2

Dantooine? They would do so much betetr on Endor..ah well. I already voted.

I say Mace with his Clone Troopers

Mace- 2
Dooku - 1
Yoda- 2

Endor - 1
Yavin- 1
Geonosis - 1
Dantooine - 1

Pirates - 1
Wookiees - 2
Clone troopers - 2

blaster rifles - 1
heavy repeaters - 1
boltcasters - 2

Let's keep those votes rolling in, guys.

I say Yoda and Wookies on planet Endor with boltcasters. No explosives?

Mace- 2
Dooku - 1
Yoda- 3

Endor - 2
Yavin- 1
Geonosis - 1
Dantooine - 1

Pirates - 1
Wookiees - 3
Clone troopers - 2

blaster rifles - 1
heavy repeaters - 1
boltcasters - 3

Read the rules, Akbar. Infantry, artillery if applicable, and tanks if applicable. I don't recall the Wookiees having either of the latter two.

Anyways, the Aggressive Force for Round One has been decided: Yoda leading Wookiees, the infantry armed with bowcasters. The planet needs to be decided. And we still need to vote on the Defending Force.

Btw, start researching those bowcasters and wookiees. You WILL have to factor the warriors and their weaponry into your arguments.

I would vote for the defending force, but I already cast a vote. As for the artillery and tanks I agree the wookies do not have them, but I'm pretty sure they have time bombs and other explosives. If they don't count then np.

Hm. If you can show me when or where they use them, I'll accept it as part of the infantry routine.

Actually I just searched about wookie infantry on Wikipedia, I know.. not very reliable, but it makes logical sense. The infantry wookies are known to carry around grenades or any other types of explosives with them along with boltcasters or meele weapons. Here is the text.

"Wookiees possess a fierce style of fighting, typically eschewing standard blasters and grenades for bladed weapons and powerful bowcasters"

Oh and did you see the wookie who planted an explosive on that one vehicle during the invasion of Kasshyk? Seems to me that the infantry do use them as part of their routine. They hit-and-run.

This means that they typical DROP or DON'T USE blasters and grenades in favor of bladed weapons and bowcasters.

Wesker i always factor them. I won't even bother factoring Yoda that much.

Ok, but you cant have an entire infantry (2000) troops only using bowcasters. The wookies have alternatives, unlike for example Gamoorean Thugs who only use axes. You should split up what percentage of the army uses grenades, bowcasters, and meele weapons to make it seem more like a strategical battlefield.

Endor, Greivous, heavy repeaters, pirates.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Ok, but you cant have an entire infantry (2000) troops only using bowcasters. The wookies have alternatives, unlike for example Gamoorean Thugs who only use axes. You should split up what percentage of the army uses grenades, bowcasters, and meele weapons to make it seem more like a strategical battlefield.

Hmm...

The main armament of the infantry IS the bowcaster. I could entertain the idea of adding a machine gunner, personal vibroknives and grenades on each, etc. but that's a lot to micromanage. If you want to assume in your post that certain wookiees act as say, grenadier units, then do so. I'll love to see some tactical thought put into your posts. In fact, I was debating on letting people take on the roles of characters, but that would get messy.

ANd be sure to prove any serious claims, btw, with canon evidence. I don't want to see rail guns in the forest being manned by Gamorreans.

Mace- 2
Dooku - 1
Yoda- 3- Aggressve Force, Round I
Grievous- 1

Endor - 3- Battle location, Round I
Yavin- 1
Geonosis - 1
Dantooine - 1

Pirates - 2
Wookiees - 3- Yoda's Army
Clone troopers - 2

blaster rifles - 1
heavy repeaters - 2
boltcasters - 3- Yoda's Army

Alright, so Yoda is the Aggressive army, leading Wookiees primarily armed with bowcasters. Location is Endor. Let's reset the vote limit for each person so that we can all revote on the Defending party. The count remains.

That will be hard show, but I think I can get it done. Not a lot of info to search on Wookie warfare. Il try to put some tactical thought into it. If anyone has a good link about Wookies or any comics please post them.

As for the defending force, lol I was hoping The Wookies and Yoda would be defending, but w/e. As for the D force I choose Mace and Clone Troopers on Endor.

Anything you can provide. I'll even help.

An average adult Wookiee stands more than two meters tall, and has a lifespan of several centuries. Aside from great strength and keen senses, Wookiees also have impressive regenerative abilities that allow them to recover from injury at a remarkable. Their tempers, however, are short; when angered, Wookiees can fly into a berserker rage and will not stop until the object of their distemper is sufficiently destroyed.rate.- http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/wookiee/?id=eu

Sorry it's not much. I thought the strength, rage, keen senses, and regeneration might come in handy. I'll keep looking. BTW, apparently wookiees carry around another weapon as common as the bowcaster: the Ryyk Blade.

Keep in mind the berserker frenzy can work against them, too.

Let's have some votes for the defending party.

Originally posted by Wesker
Keep in mind the berserker frenzy can work against them, too.

Let's have some votes for the defending party.

Look at the above post.

Mace- 3- Defending Force, Round I
Yoda- 3- Aggressve Force, Round I


Endor - 3- Battle location, Round I

Wookiees - 3- Yoda's Army
Clone troopers - 3- Mace's Army

blaster rifles - 1
heavy repeaters - 2
boltcasters - 3- Yoda's Army

Alright, Mace and the Clone Troopers versus Yoda and the Wookiees with bowcasters on Endor. We assume that Mace's forces are defending the area around the Imperial bunker shown in ROTJ. The bunker itself works as Mace's HQ. We assume that, being the defending party, the Clone Troopers have established fronts, fall back points, defensive choke points, barricades, and set up shop with some automatic weapons. Only thing missing is what Mace's army is equipped with.

Heavy repeaters, just to get this thing going.

I say blaster rifles.

And as for the wookies they do have vehicles they could use for aggresive use. But since this is Endor, only one of them might actually come in handy.

Il post the pictures.

Well, the heavy repeaters have three votes, so I guess that's that.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
I say blaster rifles.

And as for the wookies they do have vehicles they could use for aggresive use. But since this is Endor, only one of them might actually come in handy.

Il post the pictures.

The wookies can man these animals with for example meele weapons and slice their way through enemies, or jump of them and manhandle the enemies.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar


Sorry for the double post, here is the other picture.

I believe these vehicles fly also, but I cant be sure. Dont think these would help much on Endor though. Im just showing that Wookies do in fact have machinery.

They have those and their gyrocopter things, as well as the dragon-fly like animals seen in the beginning ot RotS.

Yes, but an air attack would make little sense because endor is covered in trees, unless they attack somewhere in the open.

Use www.imageshack.us to host pics. When I have to click to view the thumbnail I almost don't wanna do it.

Btw, Clone troopers have heavy repeaters.

Well lets look at the various pros and cons. Wookies are trained to fight in undergrowth and various forest like habitats, so they might have the advantage of being more adapted to the terrain. They can climb trees and set up hard to bypass traps of sorts along with natural camo. Also they are hunters so I'm sure that most wookies are good shots. Problem is that the wookies with much more primitive technology. Bolt casters fire slower, I'm sure than heavy repeaters, much slower, so this could provide a problem. If the wookies use more guerrilla warfare tactics such as laying time bombs in key locations hit and run strikes, they can eventually exhaust Mace's forces. As opposed to going in all out warfare, were they will eventually be overwhelmed by Mace's superior tech.

The clones have the advantage of much better technology, hey will probably have speeders to get around quickly, and those heavy repeaters will do wonders against the Wookie's slow bolt casters. They also probably have various sensors I'm sure, thermal and such so they will see the Wookies from farther away. The clones disadvantage is the terrain. Because of the thick canopy air strikes will be almost useless, unless theirs an installation thats in a clearing. And the various gnarled trunks and roots in the ground ,along with uneven ground itself will make it hard to for the clones to use any good artillery. The clones will be severely slowed in their operations, giving the Wookies time to set up traps under the foliage, like hidden them bombs under leaves and such. This problem can be solved though by burning and destroying the trees. Without the factor of camo the Wookies will almost certainly lose. So if the Clones burn down most of the forest surrounding the bunker beware of traps then the Clones may have a chance.

I'd say that Yoda and the Wookies win because they grew up in terrain similar to Endor. They are used to being in that type of environment. They can also climb trees easily. Also, the Clone troopers are easy to see and kill because of their white armor. Even if they had camo on, they are still fairly easy to spot and snipe.

If it ever came to hand to hand combat between a Wookie and a Clone trooper, I would easily give it to the Wookie. They are much bigger and stronger. They also have long sharp claws.

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Well lets look at the various pros and cons. Wookies are trained to fight in undergrowth and various forest like habitats, so they might have the advantage of being more adapted to the terrain. They can climb trees and set up hard to bypass traps of sorts along with natural camo. Also they are hunters so I'm sure that most wookies are good shots. Problem is that the wookies with much more primitive technology. Bolt casters fire slower, I'm sure than heavy repeaters, much slower, so this could provide a problem. If the wookies use more guerrilla warfare tactics such as laying time bombs in key locations hit and run strikes, they can eventually exhaust Mace's forces. As opposed to going in all out warfare, were they will eventually be overwhelmed by Mace's superior tech.

The clones have the advantage of much better technology, hey will probably have speeders to get around quickly, and those heavy repeaters will do wonders against the Wookie's slow bolt casters. They also probably have various sensors I'm sure, thermal and such so they will see the Wookies from farther away. The clones disadvantage is the terrain. Because of the thick canopy air strikes will be almost useless, unless theirs an installation thats in a clearing. And the various gnarled trunks and roots in the ground ,along with uneven ground itself will make it hard to for the clones to use any good artillery. The clones will be severely slowed in their operations, giving the Wookies time to set up traps under the foliage, like hidden them bombs under leaves and such. This problem can be solved though by burning and destroying the trees. Without the factor of camo the Wookies will almost certainly lose. So if the Clones burn down most of the forest surrounding the bunker beware of traps then the Clones may have a chance.

I agree, but one question why would mace and his troops burn the forest? It just makes no sense.

Wow, an army of heavy repeaters? That can be quite imbalanced compared to bowcasters.

Im assuming its not all heavy repeaters. Various clones need to snipe or plant mines, ect...

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
I agree, but one question why would mace and his troops burn the forest? It just makes no sense.

Because if you destroy the trees and surrounding vegitation than the Wookies will have no foilage to blend in with and hide among.

I highly doubt that burning the forest would be a tactic that they would try.

Getting rid of the one advantage the wookies had would help greatly, I think.

Yes, flush the Wookies into the open, then obliterate them...

Exactly. Without cover the Wookies will get gunend down by the heavy repeating blasters.

The Clones risk burning down their own facilities and bunkers.

You can control fires ya know. And when I say burn I dont literally mean use firw, they can use lasers, cut them down, anything really.

Lets not use burning of the trees as a strategy, there is a reason why this is planet Endor. If we wanted an open war we would have picked Dantooine.

The environment can be used as the general sees fit. Don't put any limitations on it.

Let's have a look.

Yoda / Wookies / Bowcasters:
- Yoda pocesses Battle Meditation and had enough skill to turn a "suicide mission" into a victory on Kashyyyk
- the Wookies learn how to fight / hunt / survive in a forrest / jungle enviroment at the age of 12, can move rather fast through trees and are pretty strong
- bowcasters may seem primitive but on short range (30-50 metres) they are more devastating and more accurate than a normal blaster (according to the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology) and you can fire multiple shots (up to 5 as far as I remember - shown in Jedi Knight) at once giving that thing a nice "shotgun" effect.

Mace / Clone Troopers / Repeaters:
- the only advantage Mace might have here is his Shatterpoint ability which he possibly can use to figure out weakpoints in enemy tactics / lines.
- the Clone Troopers are basically just trained to fight and have superior technology
- the Repeater rifles (at least if we talk about the "Imperial Heavy Repeaters" have a very high firing rate but that tends to result in a lack of accuracy and destructive power.

So...we have:
Generals: Yoda > Mace (battle meditation and superior experience, not to forget that he trained Windu)
Troops: Wookies > Clone Troopers (at least in a forrest enviroment; if the Clones manage to get the Wookies out of the forrest - which might be impossible on Endor - it's the other way arround)
Weapons / technology: Clones have an advantage in technology (AT-ST / AT-AT like walkers / speeders) and have a weapon advantage on greater distances (which might be the other way arround when fighting on closer range and especially melee combat where the Wookies have an advantage).

I'd say Yoda takes that fight because he seems to be the better commander, has battle meditation to support his troops and his troops do have the terrain advantage. If Mace decides to let his Clones burn the entire forrest down he might win this but I don't see him doing that somehow.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let's have a look.

Yoda / Wookies / Bowcasters:
- Yoda pocesses Battle Meditation and had enough skill to turn a "suicide mission" into a victory on Kashyyyk
- the Wookies learn how to fight / hunt / survive in a forrest / jungle enviroment at the age of 12, can move rather fast through trees and are pretty strong
- bowcasters may seem primitive but on short range (30-50 metres) they are more devastating and more accurate than a normal blaster (according to the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology) and you can fire multiple shots (up to 5 as far as I remember - shown in Jedi Knight) at once giving that thing a nice "shotgun" effect.

Mace / Clone Troopers / Repeaters:
- the only advantage Mace might have here is his Shatterpoint ability which he possibly can use to figure out weakpoints in enemy tactics / lines.
- the Clone Troopers are basically just trained to fight and have superior technology
- the Repeater rifles (at least if we talk about the "Imperial Heavy Repeaters" have a very high firing rate but that tends to result in a lack of accuracy and destructive power.

So...we have:
Generals: Yoda > Mace (battle meditation and superior experience, not to forget that he trained Windu)
Troops: Wookies > Clone Troopers (at least in a forrest enviroment; if the Clones manage to get the Wookies out of the forrest - which might be impossible on Endor - it's the other way arround)
Weapons / technology: Clones have an advantage in technology (AT-ST / AT-AT like walkers / speeders) and have a weapon advantage on greater distances (which might be the other way arround when fighting on closer range and especially melee combat where the Wookies have an advantage).

I'd say Yoda takes that fight because he seems to be the better commander, has battle meditation to support his troops and his troops do have the terrain advantage. If Mace decides to let his Clones burn the entire forrest down he might win this but I don't see him doing that somehow.

Ha;d of the stuff you just said I said earlier in my post, lol. And Mace would be a fool not to get rid of the Wookies main advantage. ANy that wookie that gets caught in the open will get detsroyed, even with their superior fighting techniques, which I agree on Borberad.

Hydra, your post was good, and well thought out. Same with you, Borbarad, but there is one factor that you did not count in, the fact that Mace and the clones are defending. This isn't a wookiee hunt by the clones, this is the clones holding up a fortress while the wookiees try to break in and kill them. It would be easy to defend a fortress using heavy repeaters, anything that gets within range, you mow it down. Double that with the greater technology, using large turrets and the like, the wookiees have a serious problem. Yoda's battle meditation would make it a close fight, and help the wookiees significantly, but I think the clones would emerge victorious.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Hydra, your post was good, and well thought out. Same with you, Borbarad, but there is one factor that you did not count in, the fact that Mace and the clones are defending. This isn't a wookiee hunt by the clones, this is the clones holding up a fortress while the wookiees try to break in and kill them. It would be easy to defend a fortress using heavy repeaters, anything that gets within range, you mow it down. Double that with the greater technology, using large turrets and the like, the wookiees have a serious problem. Yoda's battle meditation would make it a close fight, and help the wookiees significantly, but I think the clones would emerge victorious.

I did facor that in, I think. If Mace is stupid enough to let the vegitation surrounding the compound live, than the Wookies can easily mount ambushes from the cover of the trees. And I doubt 2000 Clones can all fit within a 1 block radius. The Wookies, using guerrila tactics, can take out the drifters of the clones, the ones to far out of the perimiter, and launch various bombs and such. Yoda's meditation would greatly help here, but I agree that it will be much, much harder to attack, than to defend. The casualties will be high, but I think if Yoda plays smart he can win.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
The environment can be used as the general sees fit. Don't put any limitations on it.

And who will decide what the general should do?

As for the fight, I agree the wookies are IMO better defenders than attackers, but that does not make them weaker. As for Mace, he can see weak points on the battlefield, but what? Is he going to inform the commanders from inside the bunker? Remember, both generals are not frontline attackers/defenders.

Meh, I think Jango should have been a general IMO.

But on topic, maybe the Wookies "beserk" might come in handy? The Wookies are on the aggresive in this fight, so maybe if they stay enranged an aggressed, they could close the distance between them and the clones and... rip them apart with their bare hands. If, however, Mace isolates a clear distance in some good choke points, I don't see the Wookies outgunning the Clones...

This is a cool fight, but I'm giving it to Mace.

IGNORE-POST

I don't think the wookiee berserk will play a role, even if it does, it'll be a bad one. They will be going crazy and not thinking clearly(I don't know if that will be bad for battle meditation or not, it doesn't seem like it would help) and the adrenaline from their rage won't help them against heavy repeaters.

I think the fight would go something like this:

Mace would use the force to try to see where the wookies are coming from next.
The wookies berserk and charge (possibly interfering with Yoda's battle meditation).

The clones mow them down with heavy repeaters and defence turrets.

Yoda calls off the attack, but because of wookiee pride and battle raging, very few of the wookies retreat, and most are shot down before they are close enough to attack, and the few that follow orders get shot in the back.

Windu either leads a hunt for Yoda and the few remaining wookies with his clones (which are still very numerous) or waits for a desperate sneak attack from Yoda which he will see coming in meditation.

Windu wipes the sweat off his brow and his army is now prepared to fight on Hoth, due to their new fur coats.

Thats IF he uses beserk. ANd I think that the fur coats was a nice touch. Witty.

Really, once the Wookies get in close range with Beserk AND Battle Meditation the clones have no prayer.

Read what I said, Ocelot. Rage won't help them against heavy repeaters. Berserk may interfere with battle meditation (no evidence, just seems logical to me). How will the wookies get close if the clones are defending a base with turrets and heavy repeaters?

It would really depend on how Mace positions his troops and if he stays on the defensive or not. The Wookies would have to find a way to close the distance. I still don't see the clones standng a chance against the Wookies, with beserk and battle-med, in close range.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
How will the wookies get close if the clones are defending a base with turrets and heavy repeaters?
The Wookies could make a distraction or diversion task force of some kind, then other Wookies could come around to the back and attack. Once the Wookies are up close to the Clones, Wookies win. They are much bigger and stronger and could just beat the Clones down. They also have long sharp claws.

Also, because the Clones are using heavy repeaters, once Wookies got close then the repeaters wouldn't do much good because they are big and heavy. They couldn't move them around very fast like they could with a smaller blaster.

Yes, and like how was mentioned earlier, the reapeters probabaly have horrible accuracy.

They do have horrible accuracy, and they are heavy to move from side to side. And they have a slow recoil/startup rate. As I see it the wookies are not stupid enough to storm in like kamizaze idiots and get obliterated by enemy fire, plus their rage/frenzy does not happen whenever they choose. Something like having their best friend shot down, or parents killed could make them go crazy.

Seems like most people believe Yoda has a chance of victory here lets move on to Battle #2

Why don't we? That sounds good. NExt match would be Yoda defending? Or..others.

That's Janus's call, and he'll make it when he thinks there's been a conclusive argument, which, as far as I can see, hasn't happened yet. Nai's points were pretty good, but what would happen if Mace had his clones destroy the nearby vegetation? The Wookies would eventually find themselves in an open field, and then get torn apart by repeaters. I don't think they'd be stupid enough to do that, but it's a possibility if the clones play it right.

However, Jedi battle meditation is devastatingly effective when used against enemy forces. While obviously skyrocketing the will and confidence of allies, it really does tear the opposing armies' soldiers apart, as is shown by Odan-Urr's conquest of a rival base in - I believe - GAotS.

No, I don't agree. Coupled with my previous answers and the fact that Mace would see a small squad coming in meditation, I think Mace wins. Show me what is wrong with my answer and I will accept what you guys say, but being on the defensive with heavy repeaters, defence turrets, and a general who will see sneak attacks coming in meditation will win Mace the battle.

Originally posted by Faunus
That's Janus's call, and he'll make it when he thinks there's been a conclusive argument, which, as far as I can see, hasn't happened yet. Nai's points were pretty good, but what would happen if Mace had his clones destroy the nearby vegetation? The Wookies would eventually find themselves in an open field, and then get torn apart by repeaters. I don't think they'd be stupid enough to do that, but it's a possibility if the clones play it right.

However, Jedi battle meditation is devastatingly effective when used against enemy forces. While obviously skyrocketing the will and confidence of allies, it really does tear the opposing armies' soldiers apart, as is shown by Odan-Urr's conquest of a rival base in - I believe - GAotS.


Lets not depend on What If's. I dont know if it was in this thread or the last one, but Janus stated that nobody will decide what the commander might or will do.

So far all I have seen is how the wookies will win, nobody has even defended mace and his clones. Unless somebody gives an argument in maces favor, I see no reason to continue this fight.

I decided that no one can place LIMITATIONS on a general's missions unless it's implied in his location or his mentality. If Mace Windu decides to scortch and burn trees around his bunker to set up a kill zone, he can do that.

Just thought I should add that it takes three guys to use a heavy repeating blaster (if I remember correctly, that it) and that it takes several minutes to set them up/pack them up. That leads to a much smaller number of guns (667 compared to 2,000) and a relatively immobile force.

Not really. We're working with the Mandalorian style heavy repeaters here.

Ah, okay. I thought you meant like E-webs.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I decided that no one can place LIMITATIONS on a general's missions unless it's implied in his location or his mentality. If Mace Windu decides to scortch and burn trees around his bunker to set up a kill zone, he can do that.

Well...Is Mace allowed to built up the defence before the battle starts (meaning can he create a kill zone before the battle) ? Otherwise I don't see the Clones destroying huge parts of the forrest while getting attacked by Wookies with Battle Meditation support.

And even if he's allowed to do that: Yoda will simply send the Wookies to dig trenches through the killzone or they'll construct some sorts of mobile cover (e.g. cut down trees and transport them into the kill-zone).

Let's assume both forces have plenty of prep time, like twenty four hours. Now, Yoda's forces are well over five miles from Mace's, along with his HQ. That gives them both some breathing room, but doesn't make it so far recon is absolutely neccessary.

Really, tactically Mace has an advantage. As good at Jungle Warfare the Wookies may be, they are larger targets, they must attack, and the heavy repeater will absolutely mow down troops at close range. The heavy repeater, without substantial armor, is absolutely a devastating weapon. Clone troopers are naturally tactical fighters, I see no reason why they wouldn't split into small regiments, camp key locations and simply mow down the forces with their rapid fire weapons.

Bowcasters usually only shoot one bolt, I believe they have a charge time for multiple bolts, even then it's far from a shotgun effect, which is a large mass of shrapnel.

"and we became his lightsabers."

Sorry. This is not conclusive proof that Yoda knows the battle meditation technique. Why?

1) The narrator seems to be a clonetrooper, not an omniscient third party. Since when did clonetroopers know shit about Force techniques?

2) The rest of his sentence becomes a metaphor, meaning he is not speaking literally. Unless you want to argue that the clonetroopers literally turned into lightsabers, what evidence you have for Yoda knowing the technique is on more-than-shaky ground.

What proof you have is of a fallible third party making a metaphor. Not good enough.

Originally posted by IKC
"and we became his lightsabers."

Sorry. This is not conclusive proof that Yoda knows the battle meditation technique. Why?

1) The narrator seems to be a clonetrooper, not an omniscient third party. Since when did clonetroopers know shit about Force techniques?

Obviously you know shit about the comic. The narrator in this case is Quinlan Vos and I guess he knows enough about the force to judge if somebody is using Battle Meditation.



Again. The narrator is Quinlan Vos and not a Clone Trooper. What weapon does Jedi Knight Vos prefer ? A lightsaber maybe ?



See above. Maybe you should read the source before you start arguing my points.

Damn I was hoping the new thread name would throw him off. AH well he found us, say good bye to this thread...

And I already stated my reasons as to why Yoda should win, so I'm just kinda sittin around...

How is Quinlan Vos a "fallible third party" as he has experienced Oppo Rancicis using the very same ability in the Battle of Saleucami, huh ?

How is the "Master Yoda went into a battle meditation" a metaphor ? Oh...the "we became his lightsabers" is ? Does that affect the first part of the sentence: No. Does Quinlan say that because of the general strong bond between a Jedi and his lightsaber (quote Obi-Wan from AotC: "This weapon is your life !" ? Apparently: Yes.

Can it be that you're again talking out of your ass with your great skills of literature interpretation that enable you to turn a "forced to watch" used as description for persons that just got hit by a freezing spell into "OMG ! Exar Kun did mind-controll the entire Senate, and the Chancellor ! And he made them turn their heads to see what he does. Da narrator says so !" ? Seems like this is the case.

eh if he got quotes from the comic himself than I'd have to go with the quotes...

If Yoda wasn't using Battle Med, why the hell put the quote in the comic?

Because KC said so

Originally posted by Borbarad
How is Quinlan Vos a "fallible third party" as he has experienced Oppo Rancicis using the very same ability in the Battle of Saleucami, huh ?

How is the "Master Yoda went into a battle meditation" a metaphor ? Oh...the "we became his lightsabers" is ? Does that affect the first part of the sentence: No. Does Quinlan say that because of the general strong bond between a Jedi and his lightsaber (quote Obi-Wan from AotC: "This weapon is your life !" ? Apparently: Yes.

Can it be that you're again talking out of your ass with your great skills of literature interpretation that enable you to turn a "forced to watch" used as description for persons that just got hit by a freezing spell into "OMG ! Exar Kun did mind-controll the entire Senate, and the Chancellor ! And he made them turn their heads to see what he does. Da narrator says so !" ? Seems like this is the case.


You've got a point, so Quinlan Vos actually said "Master Yoda went into Battle Meditation"? If so why would anyone try to downplay the quote as a fallible?

Because he's neither God nor omniscient.



It calls into question the veracity of the entire sentence especially when placed into context: you've provided no other evidence of Yoda's battle meditation. If anything, there should at least be a portrayal of the effect of said meditation on the battle. You've not provided it. Until you do, it is questionable at best.



Nai Fohl's unsupported assertions are not Star Wars canon. Sorry.



Oh, is this the same assertion that you've consistently failed to counter?

This coming from the guy that applies nonsensical attributes from other fictional worlds to Star Wars on the basis of no evidence whatsoever (magic "rituals?" I'm still laughing about that one).

My question is IKC, how is it that we are supposed to assume that Kun controlled the senate when the author said they were frozen, but we can't assume Yoda had battle meditation because an "infallible third party" said it?

Originally posted by tdtd
My question is IKC, how is it that we are supposed to assume that Kun controlled the senate when the author said they were frozen, but we can't assume Yoda had battle meditation because an "infallible third party" said it?
I was going to stay out of this... but this is crap.

Quinlin Vas is not an "infallible third party".

He clearly states that Yoda used Battle Meditation. He is a Jedi Knight. Does it not make sense that he would know what Battle Meditation was?

How you can argue with the comic is beyond me.

That's what I was questioning

obviously. Borbarad don't even bother arguing back, Everyone else knwos your right, so don't bother. Let's just move on.

who's right what are you talking about

Im talking about myself and Luke, who else?

Nai isn't arguing back? You mean he's not responding instantly? Maybe some people here have a life. Not to mention IKC needs to answer the question.

Originally posted by tdtd
You've got a point, so Quinlan Vos actually said "Master Yoda went into Battle Meditation"? If so why would anyone try to downplay the quote as a fallible?

Here...the narration is done by Quinlan Vos:
http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/YodaBM.jpg

"Master Yoda went into a battle meditation and we became his lightsabers."

@IKC


You still ignore that he witnessed Oppo Rancisis using Battle Meditation during the Battle of Saleucami. He knows the technique and so he can recognize it. Period.



I don't need more evidence. You have nothing to contradict the statement of a fully trained PT Jedi about force techniques. Period.



"This weapon is you life !" What is more "canon" than the movies ? Unless you get Lucas himself coming here and saying that a lightsaber doesn't matter for a Jedi you again have nothing to contradict the idea. And by the way: Notice how this is coming from the guy that tries to question a Jedi's comment on force techniques.



No. It's the same assertion nobody did agree with since it was coming from Mr. TOTJ Fanboy IKC and was so far-fetched that another person might need a hyperdrive to reach the same conclusion out of that sentence.

From the above post, I'd say the evidence is irrefutable, and since what's his name apparently knows the technique of battle meditation, then he is indeed a credible source in describing Yoda's battle meditation, so I don't see the problem here IKC..

And then he makes a metaphor which calls into question his entire statement.

That and this is your only evidence of his use of the ability, it seems.



Other than that his statement is obviously a metaphor and you have no other evidence of Yoda's use of the ability or even evidence of the ability in action? Right.



This is nice and all, but apparently you don't understand how your irrelevant misdirection has no bearing on whether or not the narrator was making a metaphor.

He did not literally become a lightsaber. Thus, he was making a metaphor. QED.



Appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy.

Appeal to majority is a logical fallacy.

It's the same assertion that Illustrious said I "had a point, however far-fetched" on?

Yeah, that's the one. The one you've never been successful in countering. The one where you'd have to prove that every being in the chamber was looking in the same direction to counter.

Good one.

Answer my question IKC, how can you call whatever his name is, a fallible 3rd party when he is aware of the technique, making him a credible source, then turn around and say that Kun controlled the senate when it appeared nothing like it and wasn't stated anywhere. Sounds like bias to me.

Originally posted by tdtd
Answer my question IKC, how can you call whatever his name is, a fallible 3rd party when he is aware of the technique, making him a credible source, then turn around and say that Kun controlled the senate when it appeared nothing like it and wasn't stated anywhere. Sounds like bias to me.

I agree, stop trying to argue Master Yoda's Battle Meditation technique. This thread was heading the right direction until these useless arguments spilled in. Don't contradict a credible source. Move on...

I just read that comic and it is pretty clear that Yoda was using battle meditation.

Exactly, Yoda has Battle Meditation, Windu has Shatterpoint lets try and conclude this battle.

Look, Yoda very likely knows battle meditation. To what extent, I don't know. But battle meditation does not equal the win here. Consider the situation, and DON'T get fixated on characters.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Look, Yoda very likely knows battle meditation. To what extent, I don't know. But battle meditation does not equal the win here. Consider the situation, and DON'T get fixated on characters.

The text implies that he uses battle meditation, lets leave it at that. But like you said battle meditation will not win this fight.
The clones have better technology and are far better strategically. The wookies are well adapt to hiding and striking unexpectedly.
I dont think splitting up into regiments or groups would be a good idea for the clones, especially with wookies attacking from above. "United we stand, divided we fall."

I disagree. I think Clones in a defensive position with automatic weapons will hold out against the wookiees, especially since there's no number advantage either way.

On a side note, Shaun of the Dead was hilarious

That is was.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I disagree. I think Clones in a defensive position with automatic weapons will hold out against the wookiees, especially since there's no number advantage either way.

The wookies could bombard them with grenades from the tree top, in that case sticking close would not be a good idea, but defensively we are safe to say the clones have an advantage and possibly a victory. Once the wookies get up close and physical its all over.
The clones lost some battles against the CIS whereas the CIS even outnumbering the wookies were pwnt, so Im not sure I guess this fight could go both ways. In a ratio I say wookies take 6/10 fights whereas the clone stake 4/10, just my opinion.

Again, I totally disagree. You underestimate the effectiveness of automatic weapons holding a defensive position. I suggest you do some extensive reading on tactics, especially WWII era; even a small amount of troops with automatic weapons in a defensive position can hold out against superior numbers for weeks. Also, the Clones are better at holding defenses than the wookiees are at offensive. The idea that even a portion of two thousand wookiees are going to take to the trees and use grenades when it says explicitly that they don't use grenades but prefer bowcasters and more visceral melee weapons implies that they won't take that route as a main tactic.

In addition, unless the wookiees form a wedge and slam one section hard, or encircle and hope to break through on one of the flanks, they don't have much of a prayer. Trees might provide cover, but for that amount of troops it doesn't provide much else. If the wookiees charge and face a serious turnabout, the clones can then run them down and massacre them with the forest hindering any cohesive escape or change in plan.

The only surefire ways to take down such emplacements are with snipers, artillery, or armor.

I can see the wookies having one of the three.

That being snipers... With bowcasters. But there's two thousand troops using artillery and heavy repeaters.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Again, I totally disagree. You underestimate the effectiveness of automatic weapons holding a defensive position. I suggest you do some extensive reading on tactics, especially WWII era; even a small amount of troops with automatic weapons in a defensive position can hold out against superior numbers for weeks. Also, the Clones are better at holding defenses than the wookiees are at offensive. The idea that even a portion of two thousand wookiees are going to take to the trees and use grenades when it says explicitly that they don't use grenades but prefer bowcasters and more visceral melee weapons implies that they won't take that route as a main tactic.

In addition, unless the wookiees form a wedge and slam one section hard, or encircle and hope to break through on one of the flanks, they don't have much of a prayer. Trees might provide cover, but for that amount of troops it doesn't provide much else. If the wookiees charge and face a serious turnabout, the clones can then run them down and massacre them with the forest hindering any cohesive escape or change in plan.

They dont prefer grenades, but that doesnt mean they wont use them. Yes, but in the WW2 era you had enemy troops running into firing range, whereas the wookies could hide in the trees. The wookies could easily snipe and take out the defenses one by one they dont need to charge at the clones and get pummled by lasers. Snipers are far more accurate and have a greater range than heavy repeaters. Snipers>Heavy Repeaters. The wookies also have far better sight than humans do, so spotting enemies from far distances wont be much of a problem.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
They dont prefer grenades, but that doesnt mean they wont use them. Yes, but in the WW2 era you had enemy troops running into firing range, whereas the wookies could hide in the trees. The wookies could easily snipe and take out the defenses one by one they dont need to charge at the clones and get pummled by lasers. Snipers are far more accurate and have a greater range than heavy repeaters. Snipers>Heavy Repeaters. The wookies also have far better sight than humans do, so spotting enemies from far distances wont be much of a problem.

Firstly, you have two thousand wookiees. If the majority of them are infantry who prefer NOT to use grenades or anything else save for blades and bowcasters, the burden of proof is on you to prove that they would suddenly have a tactical change of heart and jump in the trees. Then elaborate on how two thousand wookiees (Or even a substantial amount of them) can climb up the trees of Endor and stealthily make it to the bunker without being spotted. Keep in mind that the bunker itself was in a clearing, and the clone troopers have a full 24 hours to prepare a defense.

Second, prove the effective range of heavy repeaters over bowcasters, and the proficiency of wookiee sniping. Even if an overwhelming amount of wookiees sniped (like 10%-12%), that's not enough to take out two thousand clones before someone notices and improvises. And don't mistake effective range for maximum range.

Ok, I will give me some time though, Im doing my Homework atm.

Dude what happened to this thread?

No proof came forward.

That seems to happen in the majority of threads... it seems the only ones that get attention are the stupid ones. Well not all of them are stupid.