Kit Fisto vs Atris.

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Revolver Ocelot
Who wins?

Xepeyon
Kit

Revolver Ocelot
I severely doubt Atris can keep up with him in a saber fight, but Atris had alot of Sith artifacts, teachings, etc. I'd say her force powers exceeds Fisto.

But then again, she was a Librarian... like Yaddle... while Fisto was a premier duelist.

tdtd
She was hot though

Janus Marius
Atris would beat Kit Fisto. She was a Sith Lady (At least, before the content got dropped before shipping), and possessed the ability to use Force lightning on top of being an Echani and a former council member with plenty of access to jedi and sith archives. Keep in mind that it was knowledge of the force that made Dooku formidable, not just his saber skills. Same with Yaddle; she had plenty of access to ancient archives and she developed Morichiro as a result. I don't think Kit would just punk out and die; he'd put up a good fight- but Sith generally outclass Jedi.

tdtd
Sith outclass Jedi huh? You tell that to Artoo.

hord06
Artoo?

Antediluvian
Originally posted by tdtd
Sith outclass Jedi huh? You tell that to Artoo.

When it comes to fighting, Sith do usually outclass Jedi.


They're trained to hunt Jedi and destroy them. To be raw fighting machines.

hord06
There is also the fact that the jedi code and ways restrict them from fighting to their best ability.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by hord06
There is also the fact that the jedi code and ways restrict them from fighting to their best ability.

No, they can fight to their best ability. They just can't use anger or emotions.

Janus Marius
Some would argue that holding back those emotions limits the fighter. Of course, there must be moderation- using too much anger can blind you, as it did to Anakin.

hord06
And these restrictions often prevent them from fighting to their best ability.

Janus Marius
But the point remains, Sith are more martial.

hord06
I wouldn't say that the sith in any given period were ever more martial then the jedi, with the exception of the ancient sith in Marka Ragnos' time (civil wars and what not).

Janus Marius
Well, certainly in the days of KotOR and the PT, the Sith were far more martial then the jedi. During the Jedi versus Sith comics era, both were equally warlike, but that seems to be where KotOR is inconsistant with the Eu timeline.

But a Sith will trump your average jedi any day. Case in point- Sidious was far from a truly martial sith, yet he pwned three jedi masters and contended with two very good ones. I'd say that just embracing the dark side gives you an edge over a jedi in combat.

hord06
But the only wars the sith usually wage are with the jedi and the republic. Now considering this alone, this does not put them above the jedi in terms of who are more martial and actually suggests that they are as martial as each other. Now considering that when the sith are not waging war against the republic, they pretty much stay off the radar and carry out their plans in secret, while the jedi usually concentrate on other threats that disturb the peace which often boils down to war, I would definitely say that the jedi tend to be more martial then the sith.

Antediluvian
No, Jedi are definitely not more Martial than the Sith. That's outright ridiculous.

Especially during the times of the PT, seeing as they didn't even know the Sith existed.


In the end, the Sith were more Martial in the PT and OT era, seeing as one Sith Master managed to control an army, manipulate a large power such as the Republic and throw the Jedi into complete nonexistence for twenty years by turning their own army against them, killing almost every single one.

Not to mention, that Sith Master killed three Jedi within ten seconds and managed to keep himself alive long enough to destroy one of the Orders best Jedi. He was on par with the other most powerful Jedi in the order - Yoda.


Sidious had completely dominated the Galaxy during the PT times and the Sith were always more Martial and they always will be more martial.


Saying that an order of peacekeepers is more martial is pathetically absurd, sorry to say.

Janus Marius
The Sith spend their time killing each other and honing their skills. This is shown time and again. Shadowhunter shows Maul training extensively with Sidious. KotOR I and II show that the Sith spend their time in study and in personal combat amongst each other. Jedi versus Sith shows that the Sith maintained an army, as they did in other time periods.

And again, the dark side is stronger in personal combat.

hord06
Originally posted by Antediluvian
No, Jedi are definitely not more Martial than the Sith. That's outright ridiculous.

Especially during the times of the PT, seeing as they didn't even know the Sith existed.


In the end, the Sith were more Martial in the PT and OT era, seeing as one Sith Master managed to control an army, manipulate a large power such as the Republic and throw the Jedi into complete nonexistence for twenty years by turning their own army against them, killing almost every single one.

Not to mention, that Sith Master killed three Jedi within ten seconds and managed to keep himself alive long enough to destroy one of the Orders best Jedi. He was on par with the other most powerful Jedi in the order - Yoda.


Sidious had completely dominated the Galaxy during the PT times and the Sith were always more Martial and they always will be more martial.


Saying that an order of peacekeepers is more martial is pathetically absurd, sorry to say.

Everything you have mentioned does not in any way prove that the sith were more martial. Sidious defeating 3 great jedi masters does not indicate that the sith are more martial. Sidious defeating the order's best jedi does not indicate that the sith are more martial. Sidious destroying the jedi and the republic through manipulation does not indicate that the sith are more martial.

hord06
I think you guys might be misreading what I am saying. I agree that the sith are generally more powerful, but they are hardly ever more martial.

Janus Marius
But you're thinking more on a war-scale basis and less on the aspect of what "martial" really is... I mean, the Sith train to kill and dominate others. The jedi do NOT. They practice rather defensive and even lax styles. Every sith we meet in the series is balls to the wall martial and aggressive. They practice the art of misleading, killing, and dominating. Sounds like martial tactics to me. As opposed to peace, serenity, and diplomacy. I mean, just because jedi are IN more battles doesn't mean they are martial people.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by hord06
Everything you have mentioned does not in any way prove that the sith were more martial. Sidious defeating 3 great jedi masters does not indicate that the sith are more martial. Sidious defeating the order's best jedi does not indicate that the sith are more martial. Sidious destroying the jedi and the republic through manipulation does not indicate that the sith are more martial.

Yeah, and Sidious also owning the Galaxy for around twenty five years doesn't prove he's more Martial.


Don't even try to troll with me. You have no evidence against my claims and the Jedi are not more Martial.


Notice how the Jedi avoid Lightsaber duels and try to end wars and avoid conflict?

Notice how the Sith try to hunt down and destroy the Jedi, try to start wars and try to initiate conflict?


So, one Sith killing over a thousand Jedi and crippling a thousand year government doesn't prove he's more Martial?


Wow. You're ridiculous.

tdtd
The sith are more martial is a given, there's nothing to argue.

hord06
Oh well I always thought of the meaning of 'martial' as warlike (this is one of the definitions on google definition). But from the meaning that you are using, I suppose the sith are more martial.

hord06
Originally posted by Antediluvian
Yeah, and Sidious also owning the Galaxy for around twenty five years doesn't prove he's more Martial.


Don't even try to troll with me. You have no evidence against my claims and the Jedi are not more Martial.


Notice how the Jedi avoid Lightsaber duels and try to end wars and avoid conflict?

Notice how the Sith try to hunt down and destroy the Jedi, try to start wars and try to initiate conflict?


So, one Sith killing over a thousand Jedi and crippling a thousand year government doesn't prove he's more Martial?


Wow. You're ridiculous.

Dude I'm not ridiculous. Janus and I were simply thinking of different meanings of the word 'martial'. By the way are you always this paranoid. Please explain how I was trolling or insulting you.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by hord06
Dude I'm not ridiculous. Janus and I were simply thinking of different meanings of the word 'martial'. By the way are you always this paranoid. Please explain how I was trolling or insulting you.


I didn't say you were trolling, dude. Learn how to read.


I said don't think about it.


I had a feeling you were on of these people that were just going to continously go "No they aren't! I don't have proof against your claim, but they just aren't!"


Actually, I wasn't being paranoid, I made an assumption about the way you are.

hord06
Well saying 'don't even try to troll with me' heavily indicates that you believed I was trolling.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by hord06
Well saying 'don't even try to troll with me' heavily indicates that you believed I was trolling.



If you read it, it indicates I was telling you not to attempt to troll against me.





Stop making it more complex than it actually is.

hord06
And the context that you used it in indicates that you believed I was already trolling with you.

jollyjim311
Girls, girls, settle down, you're both pretty. Let's get back on topic. We don't know much about Atris, but she was on the council, did have access to holcrons, had Echani training (I believe), and wasn't half bad at fighting (gameplay, but that's all I have, sorry), so... based purely on speculation, she could probably beat Kit.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by hord06
And the context that you used it in indicates that you believed I was already trolling with you.


No, see? NOW you're trolling with me.



How the hell can you tell me what I used it in? I posted it. I think I know what context I used it in.


Even so, anyone with half a brain can see that I was telling you not to initiate trolling with me.


Bottom line.

hord06
I'm really not trolling with you. lol it doesn't matter. I was just pissed because you called me ridiculous even though I wasn't wrong and you indicated that I was trolling.

PurpleSaber
Originally posted by hord06
Artoo?
R2D2

Antediluvian
Originally posted by hord06
I'm really not trolling with you. lol it doesn't matter. I was just pissed because you called me ridiculous even though I wasn't wrong and you indicated that I was trolling.


Let's clear something up here, Hord.


You were completely wrong by saying the Jedi are more martial than the Sith. That's outrageously ridiculous!


I didn't indicate that you were trolling whatsoever. I said "don't even try trolling with me".


I would like to elaborate on the words "DON'T EVEN TRY".

I was telling basically not to attempt to troll with me because it would get you nowhere.

zephiel7
Kit Fisto gets fisted.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by zephiel7
Kit Fisto gets fisted.


Yup.

MEDVOCK
I say Kit. Only coz it took a SITH LORD to take him down!

Janus Marius
Yeah, while he barely put up a fight.

And Atris is a SITH LORD, btw.

MEDVOCK
Yeah, but that depends on which Atris we're talkin about... Jedi Master or Sith lord?

Dunno if it matters though, coz I haven't played the game, only read about it...


If you ask me, Kit actually did rather well against Sids. The only thing that spoilt the fight was the sudden, unorthodox move Sids pulled off whilst Kit was in the middle of an attack. Had it not been for that move, I believe Kit would have lasted much longer. (And if Ian could fight half decently he probably would've lasted a helluva lot longer)

Antediluvian
Originally posted by MEDVOCK
Yeah, but that depends on which Atris we're talkin about... Jedi Master or Sith lord?

Dunno if it matters though, coz I haven't played the game, only read about it...


If you ask me, Kit actually did rather well against Sids. The only thing that spoilt the fight was the sudden, unorthodox move Sids pulled off whilst Kit was in the middle of an attack. Had it not been for that move, I believe Kit would have lasted much longer. (And if Ian could fight half decently he probably would've lasted a helluva lot longer)


What in the hell? Kit was completely outmaneuvered by Sidious while he was fighting Mace.

Kit got owned.

MEDVOCK
If you ask me, the move was CHEAP and UNFAIR, considering how GL planned it out. I mean, he had a friggin martial artist playing as Kit, and made no use of him!!! I blame Ian's cwappy fighting skills.

*raises flame shield*

Revolver Ocelot
^ I thought he survived smile ?

xD

Anyways, Atris has an advantage in force, but was she any good at dueling at all? She was a librarian, whereas Fisto was one of the best duelists in the Order.

MEDVOCK
Yup, I believe he survived.

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
^ I thought he survived smile ?

xD

Anyways, Atris has an advantage in force, but was she any good at dueling at all? She was a librarian, whereas Fisto was one of the best duelists in the Order.

Yeah, she must suck at saber combat, which is why she put Brianna on her knees. Brianna, who killed all of her Echani sisters in melee at the same time.

hord06
Originally posted by Antediluvian
Let's clear something up here, Hord.


You were completely wrong by saying the Jedi are more martial than the Sith. That's outrageously ridiculous!


I didn't indicate that you were trolling whatsoever. I said "don't even try trolling with me".


I would like to elaborate on the words "DON'T EVEN TRY".

I was telling basically not to attempt to troll with me because it would get you nowhere.

There's no need to lie. It is obvious that you believed I was trolling with you. Or are you saying that you somehow came up with the prediction that I was about to begin trolling, and warned me in advance.

And neither Janus or I were wrong. Our definition of the word 'martial' differed slightly.

Revolver Ocelot
Yeah, she must suck at saber combat, which is why she put Brianna on her knees. Brianna, who killed all of her Echani sisters in melee at the same time.

And using force lightning on a possible non force user translates to awesome saber skills?

Antediluvian
Originally posted by hord06
There's no need to lie. It is obvious that you believed I was trolling with you. Or are you saying that you somehow came up with the prediction that I was about to begin trolling, and warned me in advance.

And neither Janus or I were wrong. Our definition of the word 'martial' differed slightly.


Holy shit. Screw right off.


Nobody is lying. Stop trolling! Now you're actually doing it! This is why I said don't even try to do it with me. Obviously you have poor listening skills.


No, I meant don't attempt to troll with me, and look at what you're doing now. You're trolling! It was an assumption I made that ended up becoming correct.

You were wrong. The Jedi aren't as Martial as the Sith. End of story.

Janus Marius
No, that whole fight beforehand does. And Brianna WAS canonically force sensitive and a jedi, since she's depicted in the ending as going on to rebirth the Jedi Order. And she pwned Brianna with the lightning, but there WAS a fight beforehand. Pay attention.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by MEDVOCK
If you ask me, the move was CHEAP and UNFAIR, considering how GL planned it out. I mean, he had a friggin martial artist playing as Kit, and made no use of him!!! I blame Ian's cwappy fighting skills.

*raises flame shield*

Actually, you could blame Palpatine's superior dueling skills as to why Fisto ended up on the ground with a new breathing hole on his chest.

Revolver Ocelot
No, that whole fight beforehand does. And Brianna WAS canonically force sensitive and a jedi, since she's depicted in the ending as going on to rebirth the Jedi Order. And she pwned Brianna with the lightning, but there WAS a fight beforehand. Pay attention.

1) We don't know how the fight went. All we know is she had her saber out. In fact, I just ran around the room placing mines.

2) What? I never heard of that line. This happens AFTER you defeat Traya? I'll go check it out.

Either way, she was a newly trained Jedi who *could* have simply lightning-pwned her non force sensitive sisters. Atris putting up a fight with her (and that's ASSUMING it was a saber fight) isn't too impressive, and doesn't give her an edge over Fisto.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
1) We don't know how the fight went. All we know is she had her saber out. In fact, I just ran around the room placing mines.

What do you think: How high is the possibility that a trained Jedi will walk into mines that said Jedi has seen being placed on the ground right before ?



Traya gives that information when you ask her about the future of your friends.



It was new to me that Jedi are now using lightning against their enemies - especially multiple people at once and especially when they just had a few days of training. Brianna just pwned her sisters either in raw melee combat (when not being trained) or with a combination of lightsaber / force abilities.

And then Atris did put up a fight against her (Force defence / saber abilities) and finally pwned her with lightning. She might not be the greatest lightsaber user due to the fact that she was a librarian but her force control should be enough to handle Fisto.

Revolver Ocelot
What do you think: How high is the possibility that a trained Jedi will walk into mines that said Jedi has seen being placed on the ground right before ?

Ah, but I also used stun/flash grenades. She could have been stunned or blinded when I placed the mines!

I also used damaging grenades. Those thermal detonators pack a punch.

It was new to me that Jedi are now using lightning against their enemies - especially multiple people at once and especially when they just had a few days of training.

She could have been Dark Jedi.

Even if she didn't use lightning, she could have simply used offensive force TK. They have no defense for that at all.

Brianna just pwned her sisters either in raw melee combat (when not being trained) or with a combination of lightsaber / force abilities.

Uh, proof?

Anyways, we're not even sure Exile was male, so the scene could have been moot canonically.

'However, if the Exile was male, and if you fought "normally", Atris pwns a newb Jedi.'

We're dealing with "ifs" and "coulds" here.

Janus Marius
Wow, talk about being snowblown by gameplay options.

So I guess Jaden beat Ragnos' spirit by using the E-11 carbine, huh?

Borbarad
Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Ah, but I also used stun/flash grenades. She could have been stunned or blinded when I placed the mines!

I also used damaging grenades. Those thermal detonators pack a punch.

Yeah. I totally see thrown explosives hitting a Jedi...think about it.



She can't have used the force against 5 people at once with the small amount of training she did receive up to that point.



Some facts never change:
- she was member of the Council
- she was the librarian (had access to massive amounts of knowledge)
- she had an entire room filled with Sith holocrons and studied them

Yeah...we are dealing with "ifs" and "coulds" here:
If you could give me some reason why Atris shouldn't be able to defeat Kit Fisto with her force powers and if you could give me a logic argument why somebody who managed to escape Sith Assasins for ten years and put an female Echani Jedi on her ass would suck at lightsaber combat - then I could believe that Kit Fisto walks away as winner.

He would put up a nice fight when it comes to a lightsaber duel but I don't see him winning.

Revolver Ocelot
Yeah. I totally see thrown explosives hitting a Jedi...think about it.

In such close-quarters, possibly. Especially if you went chucking 'em like mad.

She can't have used the force against 5 people at once with the small amount of training she did receive up to that point.

Maybe not, but she could have used a grenade.

So I guess Jaden beat Ragnos' spirit by using the E-11 carbine, huh?

If it's an official item in the game, then yes. It's possible. As possible as pretty much any other weapon.

- she was member of the Council
- she was the librarian (had access to massive amounts of knowledge)
- she had an entire room filled with Sith holocrons and studied them

People like Yaddle fit 2/3 of those descriptions. But of course for the third. That's why she takes him in a force fight.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
In such close-quarters, possibly. Especially if you went chucking 'em like mad.

They have to be thrown...they have to move through the air...and I'd like to see the user of said explosives after using them in close-quarters. Would you drop a grenade just in front of your feet to kill an opponent standing right in front of you ?



No, she can't because you can hear the fight and you hear people getting hit and drop on the ground but you don't hear any explosions...



I'd like to see him taking down Ragnos posessing the body of a force user with a blaster rifle. Lmao.



Yes, it is.

MEDVOCK
Originally posted by Antediluvian
Actually, you could blame Palpatine's superior dueling skills as to why Fisto ended up on the ground with a new breathing hole on his chest.

I know that Palpatine is a far superior dueler than any of the other Jedi, but I do not believe the film portrayed this very well. FACT: Ian is a terrible DUELIST. They should have used a stunt double!

Revolver Ocelot
They have to be thrown...they have to move through the air...and I'd like to see the user of said explosives after using them in close-quarters. Would you drop a grenade just in front of your feet to kill an opponent standing right in front of you ?

It really depends how you tackle the situation, running to the corner, chuck it at her, she'll keep on moving out of the way until you land one, or get her isolated, using grenades as "cover fire" while you set the mines. She might be distracted dodging the nades as you plant one or two mines.

you can pull it off in the game!

No, she can't because you can hear the fight and you hear people getting hit and drop on the ground but you don't hear any explosions...

Hm. I'll reload a male file and check that out, but she could have used force tk. And how long has she been a Jedi? It could be a few days... or months?

I'd like to see him taking down Ragnos posessing the body of a force user with a blaster rifle. Lmao.

... if the blaster rifle can hurt him... then it can be done.

Really, I can't put Atris above Kit in saber dueling until I see some canon evidence.


I know that Palpatine is a far superior dueler than any of the other Jedi, but I do not believe the film portrayed this very well. FACT: Ian is a terrible DUELIST. They should have used a stunt double!

The scene was a product of terrible directing. It was supposed to make us think "Woah, Palpatine is awesome" but it instead made us think "Woah, those three suckz!".

They should have drawn it out for a minute, having Palpatine doing crazy stuff and dispatching the Jedi, but in a close quartered area like Palpatine's office, a stunt double would be easily recognized.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
It really depends how you tackle the situation, running to the corner, chuck it at her, she'll keep on moving out of the way until you land one, or get her isolated, using grenades as "cover fire" while you set the mines. She might be distracted dodging the nades as you plant one or two mines.

Really dude. She might also throw the first grenade thrown at her right back while you are busy planting mines and throwing other explosives at once - this is bullshit.



Yes. And the Exile can survive direct lightsaber and blaster hits in the game as well as Revan can do it in KotoR I. Want to argue that something like this will happen in "reality" ?



Months ? The game clearly only covers weeks at max and Brianna can't be trained from the beginning on, meaning that she had some days of training und the Exile.



We're talking about Ragnos here in the body of a force user. Meh...every damn idiot Jedi should be able to block blasterfire from a single opponent.



You don't have to. I can't do that, too. But she is most likely superior to him in force combat and can use a nice amount of Sith knowledge which makes duelling pretty senseless. Dooku wtfpwned Sora Bulq with a wave of Sith lightning in the comics without even using his saber.

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