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DE Sidious has four hours of rest between each battle. Force battle only

1) Darth Malak
2) Darth Bane
3) Darth Revan
4) Naga Sadow
5) Ludo Kressh
6) Marka Ragnos

He gets crushed like a bug at four.

Why is Ludo Kressh after Naga Sadow?

Good question.

Cuz this guy makes imbalanced gauntlets.

Meh, he's on par with Ragnos, but I doubt he can face down someone of Revan's calibre. I say he just gets past Revan, kills Sadow and Ludo and then has a good fight with Ragnos, but is too tired from his fight with Revan to actually beat Ragnos.

He dies at six.

Don't act so serious, Traya. Some morons actually believe that. :/

*Subtitles:

"This is actually what fanboys believe"*

Originally posted by Janus Marius
He gets crushed like a bug at four.

Sidious pwns em all



Any attempt to argue with me is futile, because Im simply right.. end of story.

He breezes through the first three then gets pron'd

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Sidious pwns em all



Any attempt to argue with me is futile, because Im simply right.. end of story.

zOMG! Teh Fanboi!!!111

Originally posted by Janus Marius
He gets crushed like a bug at four.

Crushed at 4, unless your a Sidious Fanboy, ignore GV's post

Would Sadow have to get up for this one?

He might, just to kick Sidious's dead Ass for pretending to be DLOTS

No, 1587182937289 Massassi would jump Sidious.

lol..

butt cideus r teh greatest1! he's a madman1!! and he's PRITTY!!

http://loresdelsith.net/universo/fuerza/sith/bin/ludo01.jpg

Ludo is this ugly guy

He might, just to kick Sidious's dead Ass for pretending to be DLOTS

The Sith Lord may get his assed kicked, but I wouldn't call taking over the galaxy and eliminating the Jedi Order "pretending to be DLOTS". Unless failure makes a Sith, then Sadow clearly outclasses him in Sithness.

He's not pretending to be a DLOTS but he is a DLOTS by the new post Ruussan Sith standards.

He's also stronger than any other Sith as far as Dan Walland and KEvin J. Anderson are concerned

Yes lightsnake, we all heard your bullshit, now leave.

Alright, time to put up or shut up: The NEC declares Sidious>All other Sith. Period.
Now, Dan Wallace wrote this book...but who wrote it with him? The man who CREATED MARKA RAGNOS

And nothing says the NEC is more canon than TOTJ, so try again. And again by your logic, Luke Skywalker>everybody.

You're right. So what does it contradict?


And Luke DOES> Everybody

oh boy... I wish that were true trust me, but it's far from it.

Luke has become a living embodiment of the Force. He's up there. Way up there

And Marka Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful, the ruler of the Golden age of the Sith, when the Sith were considered Godlike.. He had tremendous physical power and a terrifying grasp of hte dark side. I like Luke but Ragnos would make him his *****.

And Luke defeated the living embodiment of the Darkside

who couldn't hold a candle against the ancient Sith.

Actually, according to the CREATOR of the Ancient Sith's book...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Alright, time to put up or shut up: The NEC declares Sidious>All other Sith. Period.
Now, Dan Wallace wrote this book...but who wrote it with him? The man who CREATED MARKA RAGNOS

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/3334/oldrepublic03025vw.jpg

Hm. I don't see Dan Wallace on here. I guess he wouldn't have author's insight on this. And we don't know if KJA wrote the Sidious article, since he never did any works with Sidious. So Dan gave you his opinion on a character he didn't create and didn't work with, and because he created a reference guide in cohesion with the original author, you assume that his opinion is the binding one?

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8748/warninglabelsdskad2wp.jpg

I look there...I look to the product nearly a decade later...I see THAT product declares Sidious the most powerful Sith ever...I see the Holocron and LEland Chee who say by its very nature, it's C-canon, on the same level as TOTJ...I see KJA's name on the product, that he co-wrote it....hmm...Do I trust KJA, creator of the Ancient Sith, who went on to show Sidious>His creations? I do

You have a supposed email from someone other than the author of a source material. That's assinine. If Michael Crichton writes a novel and goes on to make a large compilation reference book with Robert Harris, does Robert Harris become the authority on the badassness of Alan Grant or Ian Malcolm? No.

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8748/warninglabelsdskad2wp.jpg

I posted a link to said email, ask Styles for the password....and that book was co-written by KJA. who CREATED the Agent Sith.

You didn't answer the question: Is Dan the absolute authority on Anderson's character?

Can we say pwned?

Suddenly Lightsnake's run out of links and bold type.

Come on now, LS... is Dan Wallace the absolute authority on Ragnos?

KJA is. And his name's on the book as well. And considering Dan was given leave by LFL on such an issue, yeah, he's the authority. Having KJA as his co-author backing him up on the issue sweetens the deal. Janus, does KJA co-writing the book where Ragnos is declared inferior to Sidious mean anything to you? Does the CREATOR of a character co-writing the book where his creation is inferior to Sidious just...invalid completely?

And this is logical because? Oh wait, it's not.

It's illogical that the creator of a character helping to write a book where his character is inferior to another means something?

ok and that author didn't even co write TOTJ, so by your logic that makes him inferior.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
KJA is.

That's right, he is. No one else. Congrats.



No really? Can you show me what it was he contributed to the book specifically? Can you? Did he write or even oversee that Sidious article?



Proof of this? Since when does LFL make the binding decisions on canon via REFERENCE MATERIAL that... uh, REFERENCES SOURCE MATERIAL?



Not really. You still haven't shown us KJA's take on the subject, and we're already pointed out that reference materials can't contradict the source materials they're based on; if they do, that's a subjective opinion inserted by the author. Apparently, Dan Wallace was the Sidious fanboy in that duo, as he's supposively emailing you and your buddy that Sidious pwns all and is better.



See above. This is not conclusive. It's a reference material. Nowhere does KJA say "Sidious > Ragnos". And a potentially faked email from Dan Wallace doesn't convince me either, especially since Dan Wallace knows ****all about Ragnos and isn't in a position to make that call because he's not the author!

Let me know when that sinks in.

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8748/warninglabelsdskad2wp.jpg

LOL.. Ok well looks like this is all yours Janus, tomorrow should be fun, enjoy.

And KJA co-wrote the book where Ragnos is inferior to Sidious, why does this mean so little to you? It was approved by LFL, it's C-canon.

And y'know, KJA only wrote the entire sections on the Ancient history of SW. In fact, I'll be glad to ask Dan, then print out the email and scan it.

And you know something? It IS Dan's call to make because he was given the authority by LFL and it wasn't swept up in the editing! In fact, Ragnos>Sidious isn't KJA's call to make! Where's Veitch's take on the subject?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And KJA co-wrote the book where Ragnos is inferior to Sidious, why does this mean so little to you? It was approved by LFL, it's C-canon.

You need to learn how to read. I already pointed out that what KJA worked on is in question, and the validity of a single sentence of hyperbolic claim made by a REFERENCE MATERIAL that is contradicted by other source material isn't binding. And the Episode III game is approved by LFL, asshat. That's also C-canon.



Are you that thick? Dan is not the authority here. If he IS, you need to establish that with something official and clear. You need to show us exactly how Dan gets full say and authority over KJA's creation. You're potentially false email isn't doing it.



By your logic, Veitch signed off on GAotSE and it wasn't "swept up in the editing", so the statement of Ragnos being THE most powerful of the most powerful is binding because it was approved by an author of DE!

Or would that ruin your stance?

Veitch says Sidious < Ragnos apparently. KJA definately says it. The only person contradicting the two authors and creators of DE Sidious and TOTJ Ragnos is.... Dan Wallace. Who has **** all for authority.

I think we're done here.


http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8748/warninglabelsdskad2wp.jpg

Except the game contradicts the movie, bumping it down some notches. Do you just twist things to suit you? And this isn't reference material. It. Is. a. Book.

And Dan is the author of this book, supported by LFL. That makes him a helluva lot more than Janus. And once more: SW authors do not own their characters, LFL does.

Except Ragnos being the most powerful was changed later and is never stated in the comic itself, so...wow, your point, is...well...screwed. Considering KJA only ever referred to that point in time, y'know, 5000 years prior. And by the way, you hypocrite, KJA signed off on the Chronology! So...why does it work for one way and not the other? Oh, right, because that's how you want it to work

Did you prove up like I asked? Did you address the points I had point in front of you? No. Just more irrelevant misdirection, you're specialty. You keep appealing to the authority of Dan Wallace without supporting it. You keep missing the obvious sarcasm behind the game remark. And you keep on mocking, because the one who looks the fool here is you. Adios, fanboy.

Stop your hypocritical bullshit and face up to something: Authors don't own their creations in the Star Wars franchise. KJA has killed off other authors' creations and so have Walter Jon Williams, Greg Keyes, Elaine Cunningham, John Luceno, Michael Stackpole and MANY others...What gives KJA ANY immunity?

What has KJA killed off exactly? What's that? Nothing...

Umm...The warlords Harrsk, Teradoc, too, and Delvdardus, Durga the Hutt, Crix Madine...What gives him authority over Stackpole's creations? Why can he kill off Crispin's creations nd say Xizor was a better businessman than Durga?

What the hell?

I thought Xizor always was superior to Durga. And Jabba as well.

Jabba'd be stretching it, but he'd definitely be superior to Durga...I'm just saying it's a bit hypocritical to say noone can have authority over KJA's works when KJA has really done a lot with other authors' own stuff

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stop your hypocritical bullshit and face up to something: Authors don't own their creations in the Star Wars franchise. KJA has killed off other authors' creations and so have Walter Jon Williams, Greg Keyes, Elaine Cunningham, John Luceno, Michael Stackpole and MANY others...What gives KJA ANY immunity?

We are not talking about changing other people's creations (e.g. killing them). We're talking about the fact that Dan Wallace gives his own opinion about a character to you and you say "omg it's canon - Sidious pwns all" and this is bullshit because Dan Wallace doesn't have any authority over KJAs or Veitchs creations. Period.

And technically authors do own their own creations even in the SW universe because they own the copyrights of their stories including all characters. Technically Anderson could sue anybody using the names of his creations. The only one that has more authority than the creators of persons within the SW universe is Lucas himself. Is "Dan Wallace" now a synonym for "George Lucas" ? No ? Then Wallace's personal opinion means jack shit.

He didn't just give his opinion he wrote it down and it went through into the final product. And Dan wallace has authority over SW with his chronology because LFL gave it to him. His book is JUST as canon and unlike the others, makes a clear statement. the other don;t.

And actually, LFL owns the copyrights to the setting. Authors are stuck there. Just read my thread. And you notice KJA helped write the book where his creations are stated to be inferior? You're looking at a perspective where authors are the ultimate canon in this and it doesn't work. the company decides things, NOT the author

Can you prove any of the assertions you make, Lightsnake? Can you prove Dan Wallace's authority? Can you prove that KJA acknowledged that quote, signed off on it, and was okay with it? Some people who have that same book never even noticed it in passing.

His name is on the book. Can you prove Kevin J. Anderson's authority? And Kevin's name is on the book too, I have more evidence than you do in that case. Mroeover, I've posted numerous, numerous links proving that the chronology goes.

Let's do this point by point since you seem to miss the concepts:

1- Prove to us that Dan Wallace has the authority to make the claims you said he did on this "email".

2- Prove to us that KJA signed off on a single line of hyperbole in the profile of a character he doesn't even deal with on a COMPILATION reference material that he cowrote.

3- Show us exactly what KJA -did- in cowriting that reference material. Nothing suggests that they sat down next to each other and proofread over the other's shoulder. That's ridiculous.

4- Again, show how a reference material can effectively retcon the source material it supposively references.

1. Did he write a book? Ok then. Does he work for LFL? Was his statement in the book allowed to slide?

2. Hyperbole? Oh, and the Ragnos line is just fine and dandy, hm? What about 'Most powerful ever' is hyperbole now?

3. KJA wrote the period on the Ancient Sith completely. You really think he'd have allowed his friend and co-author to go against something like that?

4. Posted this about four times...quoth Leland: Disrepancies are dealt with on a case by case basis. Now, your teurn: Show us how materials-any material can create canon and what gives KJA authority over other authors, when his work contradicts numerous sources and his terms of scale are horrific in the SW universe, when he shows little to no disregard for others' work and a lot of his additions were written over completely. Darksaber and The JA trilogy are great examples. And considering his comics contradict points of the movies...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Let's do this point by point since you seem to miss the concepts:

1- Prove to us that Dan Wallace has the authority to make the claims you said he did on this "email".

2- Prove to us that KJA signed off on a single line of hyperbole in the profile of a character he doesn't even deal with on a COMPILATION reference material that he cowrote.

3- Show us exactly what KJA -did- in cowriting that reference material. Nothing suggests that they sat down next to each other and proofread over the other's shoulder. That's ridiculous.

4- Again, show how a reference material can effectively retcon the source material it supposively references.

When you provide proof for these assertions of yours, I'll fully entertain your position. Until then, save your typing and stop arguing with your head in your ass.

I suppose if we ignore the post to the massive Rostini/Sansweet topic, Leland Chee's weblog, the Holocron, the fact KJA's name is on the product, Dark Empire and its supplements, the fact they contradict jnothing- and you've yet to say what they contradict- the fact I posted links to where it said discrepancies are dealt with and retcons occur, The links to the Holocron and all...seriously Janus, just admit it: You'd never accept any of this, even if it was from Lucas himself

Originally posted by Lightsnake
His name is on the book.

Great. One of my literature professors seems to be quite old as there is a book with his name on it with only contents medival poems. But his name is on the book so he did write everything in it himself, right ?

If you didn't get it now...

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/funstuff/illiterate.jpg

Because medieval poetry is the same subject as fictional history?

No, I would accept a good deal of proof. I haven't seen anything conclusive that states that one line in Sidious' profile in a reference material suddenly retcons the setting and synapsis of source material entirely without anything substantial. I fail to see how Dan Wallace has all the authority in the world to make changes to SW canon on issues of power when he's simply the author of a compilation work. I have yet to see Leland Chee addressing the issue himself, and in the past when he has addressed inconsistancies (As Nai pointed out) he totally ignored them. The issue over who is the most powerful is pretty trivial for a bunch of corporate businessmen, and therefore receives rather lax attention. Also in an interview with Chee, he says he gives presidence to movie related characters over others simply because they have a larger fanbase. This is hardly an objective and complete approach.

And again, nowhere have you shown us how the works of individual authors can suddenly be flipped at the drop of a hat by one sentence in a reference book. Veitch and Anderson both developed the backstory of the ancient Sith. By your logic, Veitch signed off on GAotSE which includes the synapsis. Dan Wallace does not have the authority to override the author's intent on two fronts simply because he makes the NEC. You appeal to authority to get your point across, but it fails you every time. It's like when you argued that Nick Gillard said Sidious mastered all fighting styles, but unfortunately Nick Gillard's official title is "Stunt Coordinator", and his opinion is on par with the Gaffer and Stage Lights Director.

Now, are you going to show me some substantial proof as to how Dan Wallace gets to rewrite the source material at a whim, or are you going to say the same bullshit over and over again? It's not your conclusion I have a problem with, Lightsnake- it's how you reach it. That and your power spamming, which is ridiculous.

Would you just get it that this isn't Dan Wallace alone? This is Dan with the backing of LFL who had to edit AND aprove his book. Who the hell says he rewrote it on a whim, once more, ask around how publishing companies work. the companies tell the author what he can and cannot do and remove information or tell him to add it. It's happens with Wizards of the Coast numerous times. And Veitch wasn't involved with GAOTS.

Dan Wallace wrote this book, meaning he's more official than you by far. And the people in charge are biased, so? GL's own reaction is to ignore plenty of issues with his movies. Hell, to him the original, unaltered OT doesn't exist.

Authors CANNOT rewrite things on a whim, do you get this or not? LFL would never allow that to happen. Hell, LFL decided on Chewie and Anakin Solo's deaths

Where's your proof, Lightsnake? I have your words, but I don't want them. I listen to evidence and proof. Where is it?

Common knowledge of the corporate world?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Would you just get it that this isn't Dan Wallace alone? This is Dan with the backing of LFL who had to edit AND aprove his book.


They approved Splinter of the minds eye too. And all SW Infinities. Are they all canon now ? I guess: No !



Ahaha. I used to work in a publishing company and the author has complete authority over his own work. Of course there are limits in terms of SW but the authors still own the copyrights of their books meaning Anderson could sue LFL for using his characters.



Huh ? Because he just wrote a book he has more knowledge / authority or whatever about the SW universe than anybody else ?



GL's own opinion is that the EU happens in a different dimension / parallel universe. Inside his movie universe Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord and the films do have more fans than the comics (of course). Outside of Lucas movie universe Ragnos can be the most powerful Sith Lord since he just appears to be more powerful than any incarnation of Sidious. Hell...do you think that Anderson (after reading DE) pulled all that uber abilities outclassing Sidious out of his sleeves just to come up with "uh...yeah...you know... I made those guys seem to be leagues above Sidious but of course Sidious is the most powerful in terms of force powers".



Wrong. Lucas did that on his own in Anakin's case because of "beeing afraid that people would confuse him with Anakin Skywalker". Yeah...speaks tons of Lucas opinion regarding to the EU. Lmao.

Infinities are N-canon by nature and Splinter is in the continuity.

Tell that complete control stuff toa franchise like Star Wars or Dungeons and Dragons...authors don't have total control in a company owned work.

More knowledge? Perhaps not? More authority? Oh, definitely.

How did he make them seem leagues above Sidious? I don't see the Ancients razing worlds or destroying fleets...and Sidious was stated to know all they did.

Point being? That's the company putting its foot down

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Infinities are N-canon by nature and Splinter is in the continuity.


You didn't get it: That something is licensed by LFL doesn't automatically make everything said in the product 100 % canon or correct.



They don't have control about the things that are part of the franchises copyright. For example Sidious is Lucas own creation and Veitch isn't allowed to change Sidious. Even Sidious as he appears in DE is still Lucas character.
Ragnos in the contrary was designed by Anderson and doesn't belong to LFL's trademarks. Of course Anderson most likely has contracts that ensure that he won't sue LFL for using Ragnos character for other things (e.g. games like JA) but they aren't allowed to change the character without the authors permission.

No generally the films do have a higher status than anything else in LFL's policy meaning that of course Sidious - in terms of LFLs canon policy - is the strongest Sith Lord. But if Anderson makes his creations looks stronger (and he's allowed to do so since that doesn't matter to the films) than they are stronger. Period.



He doesn't have more authority then any other author. And due to the fact he can't retcon other authors. It's really that easy.



Read the comics dude.



Point being: Dan Wallace isn't the company. Leland Chee isn't the company. They work for the company and that's it. All they say is personal opinion especially when messing up the timeline as it's shown in the original sources. If Anderson, the creator of the Ancient Sith Empire, says that thing is 20,000 years old then he's right unless Lucas shows up saying "Uh...no...that doesn't fit my vision". And in this case setting the creation of the Sith Empire to 7,000 BBY just creates a multitude of discrepencies - same with labelling Sidious the "most powerful" (in terms of force powers) Sith Lord in history.

4 Lord Sidious cannot defeat one of the ancients

I agree with Hokage xD

And by the way to all who thinks DE sids is the best they are sadly mistaken Naga Sadow>>Palpy

1. Actually, Nai, it does. That's the canon policy. THAT is C Canon and you've yet to show me proof otherwise.

2. Other authors have retconned KJA and KJA's retconned other authors. The scenario can change and no one author has a complete say. LFL goes over things with a fine tooth comb. DE made Sidious look stronger than Anderson's creations and since then it's been stated that Sidious had mastered every aspect and technique of the dark side. And this source says directly Sidious is above the ancients, which is co-written by the CREATOR of the Ancients, which is approved by LFL. If KJA wrote a source saying "Nomi Sunrider could kill DE Luke." I daresay you've never raise a complaint about it...no, wait, let me go further. "If Vodo Siosk Baas could defeat Ganner Rhysode at the end of Traitor during 'The Dance'" You'd never complain about it. Prove to me authors can't retcon other authors, because apparently LFL gives them the authority.

3. Which was why Veitch was allowed to bring him back and show him doing things the movies never did...and detail Sidious as a young man while he was at it.

4. No, it just disputes your opinion that the others were stornger which is not held by everyone in the Star Wars community, in fact, it's the minority. Company officials apparently believe Sidious was the strongest Sith of all time. KJA has never put his Sith on ANY plateau that Wallace and Veitch and now Jon and Jan have built for Sidious. When announcing Legacy, Ostrander and Duuresma said they were given leave to use the Sith as only Palpatine ever balanced the Force.

They may have personal opinion, but unlike you and me, they can put that opinion into print and make it matter. Lucas had his opinions about how the story happened and filmed it to make it matter. KJA probably thought Kun was the coolest creation SW had ever seen, complaints about that being biased? It's hypocrisy to just write this off. It's C-canon and counts as much as anything else. Even the guy whose theory you used stated retcons have occured and continued to occur. You think authors have never had their work changed? How about the author of Labyrinth of Evil? His stuff was rewritten heavily by the CW cartoon and the Obsession comics. Look at KOTOR, it took a LOT out of the continuity and now that stuff is considered canon. The comics rewrote some of KJA's stuff (No Darths at that time, red lightsabers around then...)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Actually, Nai, it does. That's the canon policy. THAT is C Canon and you've yet to show me proof otherwise.


No.
Obviously you need a lesson in literature interpretation. So here it comes:

When trying to interprete a piece of literature you have to look at the design of the source. In the SW universe you have different narrative perspectives. There are first-person narrators, omniscient narrators and you have different "in universe sources".

For example: The stories of the TOTJ comics is partitially based on holocron recordings (e.g. beginning of DLotS when Kun uses Vodo's holocron), then you have reports from witnesses of certain actions (e.g. Quinlan Vos describing the Battle of Kashyyyk in the Republic comics) or you have simply descriptions of an omniscient narrator.

By logic the omniscient narrator overwrites the personal interpretation of witnesses of a certain action and those again overwrite third party sources.

Now have a look at the NEC. The NEC is neither the infallible source you want to have nor the personal opinion of "LFL officials" you want to have. In universe it's just the compilation of historical data gathered by a History Council in 36 ABY.

And from that in universe position the data gathered by said Council can't rival a holocron from the descriped time period, an omniscient narrator or documents from the time of the First Great Shism that Odan-Urr is reading in GAotS #0. Hence both Sidious position as "most powerful ever" and the "start of the Sith Empire 7,000 BBY" are contradicting sources with higher accuracy theirfore they are false.



A change in situations could only have happened in favor of the Ancients and not vice versa since Sidious most powerful incanation is seen before the ancient Sith show up.
And for contradiction: "I, Jedi" contradicts some things shown in the JA trilogy. Now ask yourself: Can Corran Horn (since "I, Jedi" is his personal journal) contradict an omniscient narrator (as seen in the JA trilogy) ? I guess not. So whenever "I, Jedi" contradicts the JA trilogy I have to stick to the JA trilogy.



It did ? Where ? The ancients had force-based technology enabling them to detonate stars and cause supernovas. Ragnos sceptre could blast through walls, floor Jedi Masters, drain the force energy from entire planets and resurrect people that died 5,000 years ago. The last little "trick" was apparently also known to Sadow since Freedon Nadd tells Exar Kun that they can now "use Naga Sadows knowledge to create a new body for him".

Sidious needed technology to do similar things, yet even technolgy that wasn't infallible (clone madness). And please:



Oh. It's been stated ? Where ? By whom ? Because apparently Luke in DE seeing the force storm says that this is "according to his own word a chaos that even he cannot control". So he mastered every aspect of the Dark Side but there are things he can't control ? Great logic that is.



It doesn't matter who did write it. What matters is what it represents inside the SW universe. And it's just an essay about the history of the SW universe written in 36 ABY and in contradicts the omniscient narrator of the GAotS comics who has the greater knowledge in "in universe" terms.

Same with the Date of the creation of the Sith Empire. The NEC contradicts several other C-Canon sources:
- the scrolls read by Odan-Urr in GAotS #0
- the Star Wars Encyclopedia
- the Dark Side sourcebook (25,000 BBY "Sometime during this ancient period, the first dark side uprising took place."
- the Power of the Jedi sourcebook (25,000 BBY "During this earliest era, a group of Dark Jedi rose to challenge the Jedi Order. The Dark Jedi were driven from the Republic after a century of battle, eventually resettling on an uncharted world already occupied by a species known as the Sith."

And to top it all the NEC contradicts the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels written with the same LFL backup:
"Republic Fleet Systems played a large role in Old Republic starship design for over fifteen millennia. The company was founded to design warships to counter the threat of Sith-backed uprisings in distant corners of the Old Republic."

This is great. So they founded an organisation to counter a threat that didn't even exist at that time but instead appeared 8,000 years later ? That "fine tooth comb" the people at LFL work with seems to come from Spaceballs: "Comb the desert !"



Did Veitch contradict something ?



Appeal to majority. Logical fallacy.



Appeal to non-existant authority. Logical fallacy.



What does "balance the force" have to do with how powerful a single person was ? Ignoratio elenchi aka irrelevant conclusion aka red herring. Logical fallacy.

The following examples are plain and simple stupid. Where are the CW cartoons contradicting LoE ? Where is KotoR contradicting parts of the continuity ? There is a logical explanation for every "error" that has been made so far but there is no explanation for the errors in the NEC and there is absolutely no reason to rate the NEC higher than omniscient narrators and older "in universe sources" on a similar topic - therefore you have no argument. Sorry Lightsnake.

great post

Pwnt.

1. Except it counts as much as any book. Proven it and you've yet to show me any link proving otherwise about how books take sole precedence. As far as LFL is concerned, the Sith Empire starts at 7000 BBY in the Second Great Schism, as they made Dan Wallace overwrite HIS OWN writings that it began in 25,000 BBY and nothing you post or say will change that. You seem to refuse to except that things from the source materials can change and that C-canon doesn't have much a level of precedence.

2. The NEC IS an omniscient narrarator. And apparently, anything of TOTJ is a recounting of history based on texts...in fact, at the start of GaoTS, Odan implies the Sith empire is over 100,000 years old and the narrarator even says history forgot the name of the planet! And 'a thousand years before so and so our story begins'...yeah, that's a reeeeal omniscient narrarator.

3. Proof that technology was invented by the Sith and not the Jedi from the Hundred year darkness. Proof Naga built that ship and Ragnos made that scepter...and I don't see any of those Sith draining worlds of energy and destroying fleets.

4. By an omniscient narrarator in later supplements that I've typed out before.

5. The earlier material was retconned. Deal with it.

6. Gee, DE said Palp had 'died before', later retconned he was lying-in a 'compilation', had him returning to life, KJA had the Maw Installation...later retconned in the NEC...

7. Maybe you missed where it said 'Palpatine is the only Sith who was strong enough to unbalance the force per existence?' Legacy has Sith returning...how many years after he died? Exar Kun's spirit was still around, Lumiya...

8. Oh, gee...KOTOR has red lightsabers, Darths, major anachronisms with the technology, Mandalorian uprisings, Sith returning...all of which retconned earlier material. CW's ENTIRE depiction of Palpatine's kidnapping...there's a damn good explanation that you just efuse to accept: Things change in Star Wars and the fans rarely get much a say in it. OH, and by the way: the authors and writers aren't non existant authority. And also, Dan wrote in the NEw Essential Character guide that the sith Empire was 25,000 years old and according to him, LFL had HIM change it, along with the schisms due to discrepancies with, survey says...Legions of Lettow and Xendor

Go away.

I thought we already nailed this one?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Except it counts as much as any book. Proven it and you've yet to show me any link proving otherwise about how books take sole precedence. As far as LFL is concerned, the Sith Empire starts at 7000 BBY in the Second Great Schism, as they made Dan Wallace overwrite HIS OWN writings that it began in 25,000 BBY and nothing you post or say will change that. You seem to refuse to except that things from the source materials can change and that C-canon doesn't have much a level of precedence.

His own writings ? He did overwrite Andersons writings (GAotS #0) and the storyline of the sourcebooks I listed as well as the articles in another essential guide (which is the same level of canon).



No. It is not. It's clearly stated that the informations shown in the NEC are gathered in 36 BBY by persons in universe and those aren't omnicient. Hell...they even acknowledge possible errors.



It's nice how somebody here apparently is completely unable to read.

Odan is talking about a holocron that "contains the history of a 100,000 years" - where is he talking about the Sith Empire ? Nowhere. We know that the Jedi Order was founded 25,000 years BBY since ANH was released because Kenobi has the "for thousand generations the Jedi Knights..." line.

And yes...the history is based on sources that are coming from the same era. What do you think gives you a more accurate description of a time period: A source from said time period or a historian analyzing said time period 5,000 years later ?



Lmao. So suddenly the Dark Jedi used Sith alchemy before even finding the Sith. Then they kept the entire technology at the very same level for at least 2,000 years while being busy conquering planets. Miracously they inherited everything from their ancestors (like the amulets everybody seems to were in GAotS; their Sith swords and so on). Sadow did inherit his ship from somebody else...Ragnos found his sceptre somewhere on the ground - it was thrown away by somebody who didn't like the weapon. Sounds totally logical to me...not...

And oh...wait...a minor force user was able to drain the force from planets with Ragnos' sceptre. But Ragnos himself can't do that ? Sadow's (or Sadow himself) was able to create artificial solar flares (and he used them to destroy ship) or cause supernovas. But of course they can't destroy fleets with that stuff.

Yeah...I see...You make nearly as much sense as an inflatable dartboard.



What omniscient narrator ? Where ?



Retconned while contradicting every other source by less accurate "in universe" sources. Oh yes. So...If I say that there never was a nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima I must be right because I retcon the earlier material, right ? I can hear the smoke detectors in hell ringing...



Funny.
Sidious himself said that he had died before and it wasn't stated by the narrator. The Maw installation was retconned ? You mean (in universe): The official historians of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances deny the existance of an imperial think-tank that developed superweapons and was turned into Shelter / a Jedi facility (both secret). Wow...I don't see that happening in the real world. I'm pretty sure you can find the location of every CIA base and it's founding date in the official (public) CIA databank, right ?



Again: What does that say about Sidious power ? You did notice that the general existance of any Sith unbalances the force per definitionem since the light side equals balance ? Want to contradict Lucas himself now ?



Where are the discrepencies here ?
Red lightsabers ? Does any source say when they were invented. In case you didn't notice: Kun and Ulic used knowledge from the ancient Sith only which didn't even use lightsabers.
Darths ? When was it ever stated were the name comes from ? Bane ? He also could have taken it from an earlier time (Revans for example).
Mandalorian uprisings ? Where is the contradiction ?
Sith returning ? Huh ? I didn't see any living ancient Sith in KotoR...



Wow. Great. So apparently LFL can't handle the timeline but their word - even if self contradicting - is absolute infallible canon ? Even if said word is put into an in universe source that acknowledges errors itself ?



Nice self-ownage there. So the authors and writers have absolute authority (and their opinion is canon) but then they have to write what other people tell them ?

And again you are ignoring the design of the NEC. It's an historical essay written by official goverment historians in 36 ABY. Do you know the sentence "History is written by the victors" ? So you estimate that a group of historians payed by a government will give you an accurate history essay including all nice little defeats and all hidden facilities of said goverment.

Wait...Can it be that "and then we got f*cked from the inside by the manipulative b*tch of a minor Sith Lord that even the green muppet incarnation of incompetence Master Yoda couldn't stop" sounds less brilliant then "With his genious in the art of the deception and manipulation the Greatest Sith Lord in History managed to take over our beloved Republic and he was so powerful that even the bravest and most powerful Jedi of all times, Master Yoda himself, couldn't stop him" ? Something makes me thing that this is the SW equivalent of the Donation of Constantine.

Maybe that will shut him up.

I thought we were getting somewhere when we had that email, but now it's back to square one.

LOL

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/1665/idiotpull0jz.png

Sometimes they just don't get it.

Thanks to you I'm never bringing a laptop to class again.

I'll just say three things:
1. Proof source materials can't be overwritten, please. It's happened before
2. Proof the NEC is a 'partisan document', because you have one Message board user's theory on it.
3. If you've been ignoring what I'm saying: The company has total authority. The authors come second and pretty much anything can be overwritten

Oh, and: Got an email from Anderson's staff, they said they'll pass on my letter to Kevin.

If you cant get a scan of it you could always forward it to me.

Ahhhh so you want us to prove a negative. Way to debate Lightsnake.

Well, it seems the Chronology is indeed debunked a bit by the author himself. I'm currently waiting for KJA's word on the subject

lol

My apologies, Nai, you were absolutely correct on the chronology. However, Dan did clarify that yes, there were retcons made and the chronology counts as much on a book, and LFL themselves decide retcons. He also said-here- anything would depend on who's writing the story, so apparently there isn't anything established, it could easily be between Sidious and Marka. I'm currently attempting to get KJA's thoughts

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'll just say three things:
1. Proof source materials can't be overwritten, please. It's happened before


First you're asking to proof a negative: Logical fallacy.
Second: You're ignoring the topic. Ignoratio elenchi. Next logical fallacy.
Third: I've already said that source material can be overwritten but only by a source with higher authority which takes me to:



Would you please take your NEC and read it ? It's perfectly clear that it is written from an in-universe perspective by Voren Na'al, Archivist Emeritus of the Historical Council, Galactic Federation of Free Alliances. So anything you can find in the book is just the personal conclusions, findings and opinions of a single person.

That's like saying Obi-Wan must be the uber-Jedi in the PT because according to Anakin he's "as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu". Do you see the point now ?



Obviously the company made a glaring mistake with the chronology since it contradicts every other source without any reason. And the authors can state their opinion like they want - it still doesn't become canon automatically because they have written some stuff.



Oh...what letter would that be ? And: Somebody wants to take bets what the (faked) reply (stored at some non-public place) will look like ?

touche

Originally posted by Lightsnake
My apologies, Nai, you were absolutely correct on the chronology. However, Dan did clarify that yes, there were retcons made and the chronology counts as much on a book, and LFL themselves decide retcons. He also said-here- anything would depend on who's writing the story, so apparently there isn't anything established, it could easily be between Sidious and Marka. I'm currently attempting to get KJA's thoughts

You can just ignore my last post regarding to that matter in this case. Had to eat something while writing the reply...

You know, about the letter: Someone else posted their email and Dan clarified on his post here we have corresponded. Ask Janus about the subject, you'll believe him

And quoth Dan: Only LFL can retcon something and they do it through the authors. He said, when he retconned the Sith Empire's date of birth, it was from the material they gave him

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You know, about the letter: Someone else posted their email and Dan clarified on his post here we have corresponded. Ask Janus about the subject, you'll believe him

err ? I'm not getting the point here ? You're talking about Dan's quote that Sidious took that title from Ragnos ?



I know that. The point is that this was - probably - done to keep the relation between the Legions of Lettow and the Sith. The problem is:

- Lucas himself (first drafts of SW) thought that Jedi and Sith developed basically from the same time period on out of the "Bindu" and said "Legions of Lettow"
- because of the ANH quote by Obi-Wan ("thousand generations" Anderson moved the Legions of Lettow and the beginning of the Jedi to roughly 25,000 BBY

And now I don't understand the retcon. Xendor and the Legions of Lettow are just mentioned in the Han Solo Trilogy without any real dates given but it was said that Xendor was the first Dark Jedi. And because of that the Legions of Lettow must be the Dark Jedi involved in the First Great Shism which must have happened 25,000 years BBY because Jedi and Sith developed in a parallel time frame.

For the Sidious vs Ragnos topic:
I don't think they are compareable. By standarts of "Bane's" Sith Order - the organisation hidden in the shadows Sidious is the most powerful (especially his DE version). Measured by the standarts of the ancient Sith Order - the original - which preferred fights over deception he would get crushed because he's operating under an entire different philosophy.

Now we are putting them up in a fighting situation and even if assuming that they pocess roughly equal force powers (which I would not accept because what we have seen of people vastly inferior to Ragnos) Marka would still win a fight because that is his speciality.

that about covers it

Dan clarified that was his opinion and while it may be in print now, it could easily change.

Here's the retcon: The Legions of Lettow's status were changed to the first great schism and according to LFL: The Sith Empire was formed after the Second Great Schism, that's it.

Now, we have Palpatine who was stated to have, by arcane or by intense study, mastered a great many aspects of the Force, including all the Sith order had to offer, from all the known, unknown and new techniques he invented.

Sadow himself said that the Empire stagnated and for centuries they'd done nothing but wallow in riches. No conquest, no massive battles, noone to fight but eachother and even that was considered rare. The order was also more sentimental than you give it credit for, just look at how they reacted to Simus's death. One even says "They are monsters!"
And then Naga gives a speech on Simus's nobility...and this isn't laughed off the table...this would be a bit odd if not for Simus's obvious acfection for Naga and Ludo's intense affection for Marka.

Now, here's the next problem: You don't know about Marka's fighting style. We know he's fought at least twice and one time, he lost to a young knight-wielding his ancient weapon, no less- and the first time is hearsay on Simus.

Palpatine was well versed in fighting himself and we've seen him do things that would be on the same level if not above the Ancients. By himself, he's drained the life and energy from worlds and destroyed fleets. Take away the technology from the ancients, because alchemy in no way equals fighting ability and Sidious has the edge. Whatever Marka can throw at Palpatine, force wise, Palpatine would know, by simple fact of what we know he knows alone. I stress that he may know it by arcane means for his method of draining energy and knowledge from captured holocrons and his massive collection of sith paraphanelia.

Palpatine didn't follow Bane's order's philosophy too well...he changed or tossed out rules to suit him as he wished. KJA himself wrote that Sadow destroyed stars with a weapon on his ship, and by the same terms I can refuse to accept the Ancients were so powerful due to their frankly atrocious military record. According to Dan, the winner of the two would depend on the author writing and it's his opinion-only his opinion, don't take it as official- that Ragnos would lose the fight.

What frustrates me so much on the issue is dimishing or tossing out Palpatine's abilities with the Force entirely. He was a brilliant manipulator and deceiver, but he could fight and use the dark side to insane amounts as DE showed. Dooku himself expresses his power in AOTC and in DE, we saw him curse an unborn child, in Empire, he annihilates a battalion of stormies out of irritation with force lightning, destroy an entire fleet and his and Luke's duel radiated shockwaves causing imps to fall over dead...when he died, his death was said to have weakened the darkside badly and it was said every Jedi was required to bind his soul to make his return impossible.

Just because Sidious's order turned towards secrecy to survive doesn't mean they were poor fighters or lacked in power than the ancients...and seriously, there's no excuse for Dor Gal-Ram's death. The climactic duel between Naga and Ludo's greatest expression of the force was a thrown rock

Yay for ridiculous grasping of the situation at hand! Yay!

You totally overwrite that Ragnos' spirit was over 5000 years old and stuffed into the body of a battered, relatively mediocre force user. And he wasn't even fully resurrected.

You also ignore the fact that it took the force from planets to even attempt to revive him, and that Luke feared if Ragnos were resurrected it would take the entire might of the jedi order to attempt and defeat him. This is a far cry from Sidious who got owned by a much younger Luke and Leia and a baby.

Actually, Luke was talking about stopping Ragnos's ressurection, along with Tavion's mini-army...and still, Ragnos had been training Tavion on Korriban and had access to his own weapon, facing a young knight who'd just fought his way through Korriban and Tavion the first time...and I'm sure it would take energy from worlds to ressurect a five thousand year old dead guy, Ragnos or no Ragnos.

And once more, Luke, Leia and Anakin were channeling practically the entire Force to defeat Palpatine there and not fighting him, but using the light to shield him from the dark. And I could make the argument that it was said that one can't defeat Palpatine by fighting him. Can't use weapons to defeat the dark when the dark's made war its own weapon, I believe was Yoda's reminiscing, in the novelization, which is a G-canon source

The ENTIRE force, huh? LMAO.

So they channeled the Force spreading across the entire universe, including the force inside of Sidious and what he was channeling himself, to run up and hack his hand off?

And novelisations are C-canon, fanboy. Stop being ridiculous.

The Force Illumination specified it was the potential of the three individuals. Never was there ever a quantifiable, non-hyperbolic mention of channeling the "whole force."



No it wasn't. "If Marka Ragnos is revived, it will take all of the Jedi Order to try to stop him."



It was a body that was beaten just moments earlier. Honestly, if I put a champion boxer's brain into a quadrapalegic, can I go win the title belt?

That was just rude...novelizations are G-canon. Here's the proof:
G-canon is absolute canon; the six Episodes and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/continuity.html

Where they do not conflict with the spirit or fact of the canon, other sources are considered. These sources themselves must be sorted according to an order of precedence. First are the film novelisations and the radio dramas. This material is acceptable where it adds to or simply reiterates what is known from the films.

And yeah, it said they drew energy from pretty much everywhere, from Mon Calimari's oceans, to from the metal of the Emperor's throne room. Movie novelizations are the first level of precedence in the EU

Shut up lightsnake

Lightsnake, can you VERIFY that the ELEMENT of Yoda's THOUGHTS were indeed not only accurate, but of George Lucas' intent and not the author's own take on the situation? I mean, Stover talks about lightsaber forms, which GL doesn't even address.

Read thoroughly before you spout of nonsense, man.

Originally posted by Illustrious
The Force Illumination specified it was the potential of the three individuals. Never was there ever a quantifiable, non-hyperbolic mention of channeling the "whole force."



No it wasn't. "If Marka Ragnos is revived, it will take all of the Jedi Order to try to stop him."

It was specified later on, I've typed out the text before.

And no, Luke says "If Marka Ragnos is ressurected there's no telling what he might do. It will take all of our strength (Or forces, forgot which) to stop him."

Taken one way, you could think Luke's going there to fight the ressurected Ragnos and not take on the large cult. Especially when he's already talked about stopping Tavion from her course. And now, we now Ragnos is leading the cult, so it would be his forces they're attacking...particularly the army of cultists and Tavion.

There you go Lightsnake. I emphasized the relevant section for you, since you seem to have glossed over it (par for the course with you). Looks like novelizations aren't G-Canon unless the material is provided directly by Lucas.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Lightsnake, can you VERIFY that the ELEMENT of Yoda's THOUGHTS were indeed not only accurate, but of George Lucas' intent and not the author's own take on the situation? I mean, Stover talks about lightsaber forms, which GL doesn't even address.

Read thoroughly before you spout of nonsense, man.

They're in a source of canon that takes precedence over any other in a non contradicting area. That puts them above any other level of the EU.

Originally posted by IKC
There you go Lightsnake. I emphasized the relevant section for you, since you seem to have glossed over it (par for the course with you). Looks like novelizations aren't G-Canon unless the material is provided directly by Lucas.

Great work reading the other link, IKC...novelizations take full precedence over other EU sources. We have Mr. Wallace here for questions.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/407/unsupportedass6ke7yh.jpg

Get your Lightsnake Bible! Only $19.95!

Janus, I thought we reached some sort of truce on this issue. Could you really knock it off?

What the hell do you mean truce Lightsnake? He's tearing your argument to shreads.

Oh, yeah. Because tehfurce.nut is a canon source that somehow overrides the established canon holocron levels.

Delusioned, much?

Read the source. Sansweet and Rostoni hold water

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Janus, I thought we reached some sort of truce on this issue. Could you really knock it off?

Yeah, truce until KJA gets a final word in. But then you broke that ceasefire and started arguing absurdness, and I'm countering it. And you -really do- see what you want to see. It's so damn amazing how much you'll twist and turn anything that favors Sidious and you'll turn a blind eye to the evidence supporting others. Your level of personal bias is mind-blowing in it's entirety. I wrote my Ten Commandments of Fanboys just after reading a couple of your posts. It is absolutely over the top how "into" your stance you are. Let's face it- we'll never convince you because you don't want to be convinced.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It was specified later on, I've typed out the text before.

And no, Luke says "If Marka Ragnos is ressurected there's no telling what he might do. It will take all of our strength (Or forces, forgot which) to stop him."

Taken one way, you could think Luke's going there to fight the ressurected Ragnos and not take on the large cult. Especially when he's already talked about stopping Tavion from her course. And now, we now Ragnos is leading the cult, so it would be his forces they're attacking...particularly the army of cultists and Tavion.

It says strength, specifically. "It will take all of our strength to stop him." That has it's own sentence. Nowhere does it, or in its antecedent, reference forces. You can add that spin if you wish.

Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations.

See that? Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations. So which elements came directly from Lucas? Surely not the whole novelization. The ROTS novelization has Mace slashing Sidious' saber, it has Kit's head on the desk. Two facts that are blatantly contradicted in the movie.

The bottom line is the movie takes precedence, and the novelization contains much the author's own point of view that does not come from Mr. Lucas.

Which is exactly reflective of you, only on the opposite side. I called a truce with you, I didn't agree to stop a debate with Nai that was already going.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is exactly reflective of you, only on the opposite side.

Which begs the question, what "side" is it? The side that doesn't worship at the altar of Leatherfa.. I mean Sidious?

Originally posted by Illustrious
It says strength, specifically. "It will take all of our strength to stop him." That has it's own sentence. Nowhere does it, or in its antecedent, reference forces. You can add that spin if you wish.

Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations.

See that? Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations. So which elements came directly from Lucas? Surely not the whole novelization. The ROTS novelization has Mace slashing Sidious' saber, it has Kit's head on the desk. Two facts that are blatantly contradicted in the movie.

The bottom line is the movie takes precedence, and the novelization contains much the author's own point of view that does not come from Mr. Lucas.

And it still places novelizations above any other EU source.

And so...Luke was ignoring Tavion, the army of darksiders, changed the total topic of the speech which was about stopping Ragnos's ressurection to an outlook where Ragnos was coming back and there was nothing they could do about it? Seems a bit fishy, when he makes such a big deal about stopping the ressurection itself

Originally posted by IKC
Which begs the question, what "side" is it? The side that doesn't worship at the altar of Leatherfa.. I mean Sidious?
How about the worshippers of Ragnos? I notice there's no finger pointing there

No it doesn't.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And it still places novelizations above any other EU source.

O rly? So it's "ataro" then?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How about the worshippers of Ragnos? I notice there's no finger pointing there

Ragnos? Sidious has about ten rungs to climb full of characters that can kick his ass before he can even approach Ragnos.

"These sources themselves must be sorted according to an order of precedence. First are the film novelisations and the radio dramas. This material is acceptable where it adds to or simply reiterates what is known from the films."

Originally posted by Janus Marius
O rly? So it's "ataro" then?

As much as it's 'Alama Rar' or 'Marko' Ragnos

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And it still places novelizations above any other EU source.

And so...Luke was ignoring Tavion, the army of darksiders, changed the total topic of the speech which was about stopping Ragnos's ressurection to an outlook where Ragnos was coming back and there was nothing they could do about it? Seems a bit fishy, when he makes such a big deal about stopping the ressurection itself

No, because Luke started the previous sentence with "if Ragnos is ressurected."

And no, it doesn't place it above other EU sources. It places ELEMENTS from LUCAS as above other EU sources. Because Lucas is king.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How about the worshippers of Ragnos? I notice there's no finger pointing there

No one that supports Ragnos manages to bash every other Sith Lord in order to bring up their character, sorry. Cool it.

IKC your forgetting that Lucas works with the authors for the movie novilzations. Hell he wrote ANH himself...

Really I don't see what the novilzations have to do with anything anyway.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, because Luke started the previous sentence with "if Ragnos is ressurected."

And no, it doesn't place it above other EU sources. It places ELEMENTS from LUCAS as above other EU sources. Because Lucas is king.



No one that supports Ragnos manages to bash every other Sith Lord in order to bring up their character, sorry. Cool it.

It's still debateable if he meant stopping ragnos's ressurection because that's what his speech is about. And read what I keep posting:

"These sources themselves must be sorted according to an order of precedence. First are the film novelisations and the radio dramas. This material is acceptable where it adds to or simply reiterates what is known from the films"

And yet, Ragnos is continuously held as a measuring stick when all others are downplayed to him...and remind me where I downplayed Nadd, Bane, Plagueis, Millenial, Ruin, Kaan, Darzu, Shar Dakhan, Xendor, Ajunta Pal...

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
IKC your forgetting that Lucas works with the authors for the movie novilzations. Hell he wrote ANH himself...

Ah yes, and that suddenly makes the entire novelization G-Canon?

No. Only elements specifically coming from Lucas himself are G-Canon. This applies to every piece of EU, even movie novelizations.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and remind me where I downplayed Nadd, Bane, Plagueis, Millenial, Ruin, Kaan, Darzu, Shar Dakhan, Xendor, Ajunta Pal...

No, you didn't downplay people who were never brought up, but...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386748&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1

What a great thread! Ah, the memories.

Originally posted by IKC
Ah yes, and that suddenly makes the entire novelization G-Canon?

No. Only elements specifically coming from Lucas himself are G-Canon. This applies to every piece of EU, even movie novelizations.

Stop ignoring what I keep posting:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/continuity.html
Where they do not conflict with the spirit or fact of the canon, other sources are considered. These sources themselves must be sorted according to an order of precedence. First are the film novelisations and the radio dramas. This material is acceptable where it adds to or simply reiterates what is known from the films.

This places the adaptations of the films above the other EU

Stop bringing up what is irrelevant and not official.

Tehfurce.nut does not have anything to do with official canon policy. The Holocron lays it out quite clearly for everyone who happens not to frequent tehfurce.nut.

Originally posted by IKC
Ah yes, and that suddenly makes the entire novelization G-Canon?

No. Only elements specifically coming from Lucas himself are G-Canon. This applies to every piece of EU, even movie novelizations.

In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.

-Leland Chee

So actually you could say the novilzations are both C-canon and G-canon.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stop ignoring what I keep posting:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/continuity.html
Where they do not conflict with the spirit or fact of the canon, other sources are considered. These sources themselves must be sorted according to an order of precedence. First are the film novelisations and the radio dramas. This material is acceptable where it adds to or simply reiterates what is known from the films.

This places the adaptations of the films above the other EU

Theforce.net is not canon, it is not the final arbiter.

The OFFICIAL statement on canon released by SW.com has stated that elements from Lucas are G-Canon. You can not suddenly make one source more official than another when it deals with something that you want to hear.

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
IKC your forgetting that Lucas works with the authors for the movie novilzations. Hell he wrote ANH himself...

Really I don't see what the novilzations have to do with anything anyway.
That was ghost written by Alan Dean Foster. And he DOESN'T put anything into the novelisations other than what's in scripts for the movies, which is what the novelisations are based on.

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
So actually you could say the novilzations are both C-canon and G-canon.

Yes, but only that which specifically comes from Lucas himself is G-Canon.

Originally posted by IKC
Yes, but only that which specifically comes from Lucas himself is G-Canon.

That's what I meant...

And really what does this have to do with anything anyway?



Hmm my bad I though he had written it himself.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Theforce.net is not canon, it is not the final arbiter.

The OFFICIAL statement on canon released by SW.com has stated that elements from Lucas are G-Canon. You can not suddenly make one source more official than another when it deals with something that you want to hear.

No, but Sue Rostoni and Steve Sansweet are. G-canon? Perhaps not...above anything else that's c-canon? Yep

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, but Sue Rostoni and Steve Sansweet are. G-canon? Perhaps not...above anything else that's c-canon? Yep

Nein. Leland Chee clarified. Elements from Lucas = G-Canon.

Duh. Lucas rules over LFL.

Otherwise = C-Canon.

Sorry. There is no "inbetween G and C level just for novelizations."

Alan Dean Foster co-wrote ANH, didn't he? He didn't write it totally

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Alan Dean Foster co-wrote ANH, didn't he? He didn't write it totally
I'm pretty sure he wrote the entire thing based on the ANH script. There's even the scenes that were later put back in in the Special Edition. I used to have one of the original prints of it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Nein. Leland Chee clarified. Elements from Lucas = G-Canon.

Duh. Lucas rules over LFL.

Otherwise = C-Canon.

Sorry. There is no "inbetween G and C level just for novelizations."

Not according to Rostoni, and to LEland: Anything from George or from the film production agency, and didn't Stover have a script handy from them?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I'm pretty sure he wrote the entire thing based on the ANH script. There's even the scenes that were later put back in in the Special Edition. I used to have one of the original prints of it.

I'm really sure he just co-wrote it...anything backing either way up?

Novelization
The novelization of the film was published in December 1976, six months before the film was released. The credited author was George Lucas himself, but the book was later revealed to have been ghostwritten by Alan Dean Foster, who went on to write the first Expanded Universe novel, Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Certain scenes deleted from the film (and later restored or archived in DVD bonus features) were present in the novel, such as Luke at Tosche Station with Biggs and the encounter between Han and Jabba in Docking Bay 94. Also, some scenes from the movie were included in a photo insert added to later printings which never made the original film (such as a closeup of a stormtrooper riding on a Dewback). Some of the material was omitted from the film by Lucas to maintain a linear narrative.

Ah, indeed. Just Wookiepedia'd it.

Janus, also what I meant by truce was we stop the insults between eachother. I apologized for the past and I seriously have nothing against you

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not according to Rostoni, and to LEland: Anything from George or from the film production agency, and didn't Stover have a script handy from them?

I doubt you'll find anywhere in the script where they (as a narrative) say that Sidious can't be defeated by fighting him.

Even if that thing is G-Canon (which it isn't), it's still only Yoda, a fallible source, reminiscing.