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Victory goes to whom?

Setting: The Himilayas

Great fight. I'm surprised this hasn't been done before. Freedon Nadd is too much of an unknown for me to make an accurate decision, but I'm leaning towards Luke and Sidous because they have displayed greater force powers then Kun, and probably Nadd has.

Stupid assumption, since when did DE Sidious display "superior" power, this is universally agreed that Kun > DE Sidious adding on top of that Freedon Nadd learnt of the Ancient Sith are singlehandley conquered a planet, and that puts him below Luke?

I agree with what Illustrious once stated...Freedon Nadd is underrated here.

Honestly, I was never really impressed by Nadd. He can likely take Palpatine while Exar fights Luke to a bloody, unresolved battle.

I think the older guys win. But it would be a cool fight.

To a bloody, unresolved battle that leaves Luke dead.

In all candor, what the hell is so impressive about Luke Skywalker? "zOMG HE CONTROLLED TEH BLACK HOLE!" Okay, telekinesis. And? Are the Vong uber for making it in the first place? Is Kyp uber for replicating Luke's feat? "zOMG, EMERALD LIGHTNING" Oh, you mean the "attack" we know next to nothing about that managed to drop a creature somehow and which left no physical marks?

"zOMG, HE KILLED X SLAYERS - SLAYERS RAPE JEDI" Well, no, Slayers raped Luke's Jedi, and I still find their combat skills questionable at best. "zOMG, HE'S BEEN TRAINING LONGER THAN KUN'S BEEN ALIVE" Yeah, so did Vodo, and Vodo had an exponentially larger knowledge base to work with. We saw how that turned out, didn't we?

Freedon beats Sidious while Kun takes Luke.

Wow IKC your hatred for Luke is apparent.. What's so special about Kun? Oh yea, his amulet blast that he's never used on a living force user, that's really going to take down Luke. But of course in your mind he's more powerful than any instance of Luke, and everyone except the Ancient Sith which you'll make an argument for(bias). Thanks for your opinion IKC, but this forum isn't "What IKC thinks". Oh and Freedon Nadd takes down DE Sidious why? Because he threw down Vodo is a spirit, or because we don't know jack sht about him except that he's TOTJ and that automatically in your mind puts him about Post ROTJ? Thanks for stating your biased opinions/unfounded assumptions.

I'm not going to throw in my opinion because this thread is going to go to shit as a result of Kun and DN Luke being in there. But I like the fact that arguments are being made for someone we know very little about.

Originally posted by tdtd
Wow IKC your hatred for Luke is apparent.. What's so special about Kun? Oh yea, his amulet blast that he's never used on a living force user, that's really going to take down Luke. But of course in your mind he's more powerful than any instance of Luke, and everyone except the Ancient Sith which you'll make an argument for(bias). Thanks for your opinion IKC, but this forum isn't "What IKC thinks". Oh and Freedon Nadd takes down DE Sidious why? Because he threw down Vodo is a spirit, or because we don't know jack sht about him except that he's TOTJ and that automatically in your mind puts him about Post ROTJ? Thanks for stating your biased opinions/unfounded assumptions.

I'm not going to throw in my opinion because this thread is going to go to shit as a result of Kun and DN Luke being in there. But I like the fact that arguments are being made for someone we know very little about.

Don't be ridiculous, tdtd. The turbolasers on the Executor haven't been shown to be used on force users... zOMG! tehy wont work!!!11 They blow through Sith alchemy created monstrosities and temple walls with ease. Unless Luke's face > those things? You have conclusive PROOF for that, I imagine?

And have you READ the Freedan Nadd uprising?

I just got it Saturday. Oh yes Janus, the amulet blasts were shown to be used on living force users.. Oh wait, they weren't? Show me they were used on a living force user, and then I'll finally believe this minority opinion of Exar Kun>Any Luke which I find ridiculous. Putting Freedon Nadd in a thread is a waste of time, and then putting him above a powerful force user, although I agree that Freedon Nadd is up there with the Ancient Sith, we have no conclusive evidence. And you're going to tell me that turbolasers can't kill Sith Alchemic beasts? Come on..

Your logic is fubar, tdtd.

The Executor turbolasers have NEVER been shown to be used on a living force user.

OMG... they must not phase them!

The Massassi are living force users.

Janus' turbolaser analogy was perfect anyway. By your logic, the Death Star superlaser won't work against "living force users" because it was never shown to.

Oh but when I bring up emerald lightning, you'll respond with "It was never shown to work on a force user so it doesn't!"

And the massassi empowered by the dark side doesn't make them force users. By force user I mean an actual force user, who has a grasp of the force, and of the light/dark side.

Absence of proof isn't what my argument is based on but saying that Kun's amulet was never shown to work on a living force user is in the same category of Luke's emerald lightning was never shown to be used on a force user. You can't accept 1 instance and not the other.

Originally posted by tdtd
Oh but when I bring up emerald lightning, you'll respond with "It was never shown to work on a force user so it doesn't!"

And the massassi empowered by the dark side doesn't make them force users. By force user I mean an actual force user, who has a grasp of the force, and of the light/dark side.

Absence of proof isn't what my argument is based on but saying that Kun's amulet was never shown to work on a living force user is in the same category of Luke's emerald lightning was never shown to be used on a force user. You can't accept 1 instance and not the other.

You FAIL to see the difference, tdtd... Kun's amulet has tangible effects on all sorts of things. Luke's Emerald Lightning only phased a Vong; it didn't phase the ground, the walls, or anything else. For all we know, it targets the Vong's nervous system and shuts it down.

When you bring up emerald lightning I question the nature of the attack. The problem with bringing up emerald lightning is that it did no observable physical damage and we have no idea how it killed the Vong it was used on. The amulet beams did have observable physical effects, however. We know how they killed their targets: they vaporized them.

And the Massassi are suddenly not Force users? Argue with the omniscient, non-character narrator some more, tdtd:

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/8872/massassidarkside5hj.th.jpg

Do they have actual knowledge of the force, or able to use force attacks? No, they're just empowered with the dark side correct? And I agree that the author does a very poor job of describing emerald lightning but it was indeed a force attack. At the same time and as off as it seems Luke did block an AT-AT laser, but one of you mentioned that Kun's blasts were too thick for a saber to blast. Semantics or not, Luke did show to stop a blast of immense power. Unless of course you rate Kun's blasts as more powerful than an AT-AT blast. There's a lot of absences of proof here, even if you keep telling me his blasts destroyed everything in it's path, the fact remains that we've never seen it work on a living force user. Doesn't mean it can't of course.

Read what the narrator states, dude. It reads that they're able to use the Dark Side to guide their weapons (as it shows one doing just that). One cannot do so without using the Dark Side. The Dark Side is a half of the Force, thus they are using the Force, thus they are Force-users.

Where the hell are you getting this "empowered by the Dark Side" crap from anyway? What does that even mean?



I didn't say it wasn't a Force attack, but we have no idea as to its nature or even what it specifically does.



There's also the point that it's a big unsupported assumption that the nature of the amulet beams are the same as turbolasers, even though they appear to have similar effects.



These aren't semantics, dude. Just because he stopped a blast fired with technology doesn't mean he can stop a beam fired with the Force.



They may well be, but the fact remains that the nature of these two attacks are not the same and thus we cannot throw out a blanket statement to the effect of, "Oh, he can resist it like he did attack X."



Then there's no point in repeatedly stating "it's never shown on a living Force user," because for one, Massassi are living Force users, and secondly, it has been shown to work on materials that are harder to destroy than what would make up a living Force user. I highly doubt Luke's skin is harder to destroy than massive rocks.

Right and again Turbo lasers can destroy anything the amulet can. So what is the difference in saying that
1. Because Luke can stop a powerful blast that could or could not be on the same level as the amulet blast, he MAY be able to stop the amulet blast.. AND
2. The Ancient Sith can stop the amulet blast because it was their technology and if they created it, they must have a defense for it.

Originally posted by tdtd
Right and again Turbo lasers can destroy anything the amulet can. So what is the difference in saying that
1. Because Luke can stop a powerful blast that could or could not be on the same level as the amulet blast, he MAY be able to stop the amulet blast.. AND
2. The Ancient Sith can stop the amulet blast because it was their technology and if they created it, they must have a defense for it.

Your logic isn't sound, here.

A large (or potent) enough bomb can destroy anything the Death Star superlaser can. Does this suddenly mean both weapons have the same nature?

Of course not. Ergo:

1. It's an unsupported assumption at best to just state that Luke can stop the amulet beam because he could stop an AT-AT blast. Why? Because even though both have the same (or similar) destructive potential, this doesn't mean they operate under the same principles.

2. It's an assumption (a fairly sound one) that the Ancient Sith have a defense for the amulet beams, but why is this even being brought up? Luke isn't an Ancient Sith and doesn't have access to their stuff.

Couldn't Luke block AT-AT fire by DE? Being quite a bit more powerful by DN, shouldn't he be able to use the same technique against Kun's blasts? They aren't the same, but he's blocking the blasts with the Force. The Force is ultimately the source for Kun's bracer's blasts as well.

Not sure if he would be able to block 'em though.

IKC you're right it is unsupported assumption whether logical(which I think it is to some degree) or not, but wouldn't saying that Kun could use his blast on any living, or let's say powerful force users, also be an unsupported assumption?

See, Kun's blasts are tangible. They are physical (and spiritual) beams of energy. They will hurt you unless you block it or dodge it.

That doesn't make any sense. That would be tantamount to me saying that Luke would fight back is an unsupported assumption.



Again, it's an unsupported assumption to state such. The attacks are not of the same nature.

Well no my point is there is no real evidence that Kun could use it on a powerful force user right? Saying he would flat out kill him would be an unsupported assumption, just like Luke blocking attack X just because he blocked attack Y

Wrong. Why can't he? He can use it against both animate and inanimate objects but for some mysterious, unknown to everyone but tdtd reason he can't use it against Force users?

Care to enlighten us as to why?



No it isn't. They're fighting. Why wouldn't he? Kun "flat-out killed" Odan-Urr.

Again, that's tantamount to me saying that Luke wouldn't fight back and anything to the contrary is an unsupported assumption.

Originally posted by IKC
Wrong. Why can't he? He can use it against both animate and inanimate objects but for some mysterious, unknown to everyone but tdtd reason he can't use it against Force users?

Care to enlighten us as to why?



No it isn't. They're fighting. Why wouldn't he? Kun "flat-out killed" Odan-Urr.

Again, that's tantamount to me saying that Luke wouldn't fight back and anything to the contrary is an unsupported assumption.

When you say it like that, that he can use it against inanimate and animate objects, that is where I can throw in the AT-AT example, because it can be used against both. When you say that it's created differently and is a physical manifestation of the force, then it's hard to argue X and Y. Why are you bringing Odan Urr into this? Kun used a force grip on the senior citizen and Odan Urr died slowly afterwards. You make it sound like it would be a walk in the park for Kun, WITHOUT having to use his amulet.

Again, that doesn't mean they have the same properties.

My example stands: A potent enough bomb can blow up the same things that the Death Star superlaser can blow up. Does this mean they have the same properties and have the same nature? No.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.



What the hell are you talking about? I said it's different from an AT-AT laser, yes, and thus you can't throw out a blanket statement like you've been trying.



To correct: Kun used an unknown Force attack (grip is an assumption) on a thousand year old Jedi master who battled the ancient Sith (and became proficient in cutting them off from the Force) and Odan died soon afterwards. Actually, I'd say quickly afterwards. It took all of one panel.

I brought him into this because you made the ridiculous assumption that Kun wouldn't try to kill Luke instantly, and then I asked you why wouldn't he?



I don't see how you could get this based on what I typed in the previous post. Read it again.

I know they don't have the same properties but my point is that it it is an unsupported, logical or not, assumption, that if Luke can block X he can block Y, just like saying Kun is able to use the Amulet on anybody.

No it isn't, dude. He has been shown to use it on living and nonliving, animate and inanimate, force-using and non-force-using. There is nothing to say that he can't use the amulet on character X.

That's tantamount to saying that the Death Star can't be used on character X because "we haven't seen it."

He's shown to use it on Jedi/Sith/powerful force users? If so please tell me what comic.

Originally posted by tdtd
He's shown to use it on Jedi/Sith/powerful force users? If so please tell me what comic.

As it seems he used it against Aleema in DLotS #6

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/amulet1.jpg

At least if you want to suggest that similar depiction equals similar thing used because that looks exactly like that:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/amulet2.jpg

Originally posted by tdtd
I know they don't have the same properties but my point is that it it is an unsupported, logical or not, assumption, that if Luke can block X he can block Y, just like saying Kun is able to use the Amulet on anybody.

No it isn't.

The amulet demonstrates tangible effects. It literally vaporizes matter. So unless you are trying to say that Luke's body isn't composed of any matter or flesh, you have no argument.

To say Luke can (definitive) block it is unsupported, because it was never demonstrated that he can block an attack of that particular nature. Can we make an argument that he could (theoretical) block it? Possibly, but to say it wouldn't work on him is being stupid when it clearly demonstrates tangible effects.

Luke's emerald lightning is entirely different. Did it fry the grounds? Did it leave physical markings on the Vong? Did it shock the floor? Did it destroy anything?

No. No. No. No.

So any assumption as pertaining to the nature of that attack is speculatory. Got it?

No, explain it again, I like your storytelling abilities.. I didn't argue that Luke could DEFINITELY block it, I argued that Luke could POSSIBLY block it. My other point was because he was able to use it on a sith wyrm, or the Massassi(if he used it on them I don't know), would he be able to use it on a powerful force user? If he can use it on DE Sidious, would he be able to use it on Sadow or Ragnos?

Originally posted by tdtd
No, explain it again, I like your storytelling abilities.. I didn't argue that Luke could DEFINITELY block it, I argued that Luke could POSSIBLY block it. My other point was because he was able to use it on a sith wyrm, or the Massassi(if he used it on them I don't know), would he be able to use it on a powerful force user? If he can use it on DE Sidious, would he be able to use it on Sadow or Ragnos?

Possibly doesn't cut it. Luke "possibly" being able to block Kun's blasts and "possibly" being able to use his green sparks on Kun doesn't cut it for him.

The problem is that now you're speaking strictly hypothetical. Do you know how Sadow would counter it if in the event that he could? How do you know that he wouldn't block it, or disable it in some other method? You don't. That argument is purely assumption.

The problem is that Luke's feats, however large, do not make him singular. As mentioned, he was able to control a black hole that the Vong made, a feat duplicated by Kyp. He was able to create an illusion of a ship, a feat duplicated to a FAR larger scale by Naga Sadow and Aleema. He was able to hack through a multitude Vong, a feat duplicated by Ganner Rhystrode. Are you going to argue that people like Kyp, Ganner, and Aleema would beat Kun?

No, but he did create his own saber form, the lightning, and the black hole thing first I believe. The problem is that Luke's force abilities are far beyond Kun's, and most everybody else, but very little of them would help him in a fight against any force user. I guess that's what you get when you kill off all the sith.

Originally posted by Borbarad
As it seems he used it against Aleema in DLotS #6

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/amulet1.jpg

To be honest with you, I don't believe that he was using the same attack. When he knocked Aleema aside, all that happened to her was that she went unconscious.

The only theory under which I could consider that to be the same attack is if Kun wasn't pissed off at the time (because the amulet was described as using his anger to "unleash tremendous energies."

Even if that theory were workable, one who argues it would have to explain why it didn't so much as singe her but still had enough force to knock her across the room and into unconsciousness. That alone leads me to believe that they aren't the same attack.



Uh, what? Since when?



Dude. Luke did not create telekinesis.



Unsupported (and untrue) assumption.

Prove up.

Wow, tdtd. Argumentum ad nasaeum.

Originally posted by tdtd
The problem is that Luke's force abilities are far beyond Kun's, and most everybody else, but very little of them would help him in a fight against any force user. I guess that's what you get when you kill off all the sith.

Originally posted by IKC
Unsupported (and untrue) assumption.

Prove up.

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/4175/unsupportedass6ke.jpg

tdtd, were you dropped as a child?

Great thread, Traya. I say Kun and Nadd. i don't know why, though.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
tdtd, were you dropped as a child?

I was dropped on my head when I was three...

However, I suffered no ill effects

Meh, tdtd, leave before you get pwned again.

Originally posted by IKC
To be honest with you, I don't believe that he was using the same attack. When he knocked Aleema aside, all that happened to her was that she went unconscious.

The only theory under which I could consider that to be the same attack is if Kun wasn't pissed off at the time (because the amulet was described as using his anger to "unleash tremendous energies."

Even if that theory were workable, one who argues it would have to explain why it didn't so much as singe her but still had enough force to knock her across the room and into unconsciousness. That alone leads me to believe that they aren't the same attack.


A few pages before that you can see Ulic (who was clearly pissed off at that point) using his "deadly Sith amulet" against Nomi Sunrider and all it did was putting her on her ass for 5 seconds.

As it seems those amulets don't do that huge amount of damage against powerful force users even if they are able to fubar anything else (non force users, lesser force users, inanimate objects). I mean...we're talking about a force attack used on people who know techniques to block force attacks - they do have a better chance to block that compared to temple walls, Massassi in panic who casually got hit or a Sith beast.

@Illustrious:


He controlled multiple of that black holes and Kyp controlled one. That's not really "duplicating" the feat.



Luke was able to make Vader's fortress, a huge spaceship and an entire planet invisible for an infinite amout of time. Don't tell me that somebody did something like that on a "far larger scale".



Again that feat wasn't exactly duplicated. The Vong attacking Ganner where first focusing on 1vs1 combat allowing him to slay a pretty huge number and then they attacked in pairs. And those were normal warriors. And Ganner was a state where he basically "was" the force or became totally one with it (or a living conduit for it - I guess you get the picture).

Luke hacked through an entire army of them, then took down several slayers at once just to finally kill Shimmra - and that without suddenly becoming a living force conduit - that was done in his normal state.

And don't forget that Ganner sacrificed himself to stop the Vong allowing Jacen and Vergere to escape.



Oh come on. Luke is far above them in terms of duelling skills and force powers.

I remember hearing/reading Luke can beat the next best NJO duelist with his offhand in less than a minute.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
I remember hearing/reading Luke can beat the next best NJO duelist with his offhand in less than a minute.

I guess that comes from the DN trilogy and if I got that right he suggested that he, while using a style he doesn't commonly use, handling his lightsaber with his off-hand only is still "as good as anybody else" in the order in terms of lightsaber combat.

Really? Must have got it wrong, then.

Whatever your implying Nai, Luke is not stronger than Sadow

lol Luke is not stronger then DN Luke?

Originally posted by Traya
Meh, tdtd, leave before you get pwned again.

Thanks for your irrelevant opinion troll, I'll leave when you start actively contributing to this forum without embarassing yourself.


And Janus, what do you want me to prove, that Luke's force abilities were superior to Kun's? Which ones do you want me to list?

And Deception nobody said Luke is more powerful than Sadow.

Luke manipulating a black hole is greater then Kun's amulet blast. With the exception of Sion, Nihilus, Zenoma Sekot and the ancient sith, Luke is the greatest force user there is.

Originally posted by hord06
Luke manipulating a black hole is greater then Kun's amulet blast. With the exception of Sion, Nihilus, Zenoma Sekot and the ancient sith, Luke is the greatest force user there is.

Anyone else here want to show me how manipulating a black hole is going to help in a melee battle, when Kun can just whip off one of those blasts and destroy Luke, or probably just force pwn him like he did Odan Urr?

Odun Urr was weak and old and because of those things was unable to resist Kun's attack. And the fact that he manipulated a black hole shows how great his mastery and power of the force was. Kun's amulet blasts never impressed me too much and I think that Luke could probably block it or push it away with the force.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Anyone else here want to show me how manipulating a black hole is going to help in a melee battle, when Kun can just whip off one of those blasts and destroy Luke, or probably just force pwn him like he did Odan Urr?


My original point Janus, was that Luke's force abilities far surpass Kun,s and I don't thnk you can argue with that, but I sad unfortunately none of them would help him in a fight with any force user, much less a powerful one. Also if you're going to say that Kun can just whip one of his blasts and destroy Luke, or any force user, then why not take into account that he used his amulet blasts once and was afraid to ever use it again(We don't have an account of him using it again I don't think), so you can't just say "Oh he'll whip it out anytime he wants", since that's not logical. Why not just say he can destroy any force user with the blasts then?

Originally posted by Deception
Whatever your implying Nai, Luke is not stronger than Sadow

Where did you draw that from?

Assumptions are sweet.

In anycase, DE Sidious is out of his league, meaning he falls quickly, resulting Luke getting killed by a double-team.

Do you have proof that Nadd was above Sidious?

Nadd was above Sidious, he might have been equal to or above Kun. We don't know how good he was with a lightsaber though. Everything depends on Sidious being able to unleash a force storm, if he can't he's screwed.

If Sidious' Force Storms were so uber (that he could conjure them in 5 seconds), shouldn't his average Force Lightning (conjured instantly) be very strong as well?

His force lightning was strong bro, what does 1 have to do with the other though?

He fried Leia with it in an instant, so it is.

Do you have proof that Sidious is above Nadd? (I love making that common counter-argument.)

I don't have a lot of time right now, but when I get home in about 2 hours I'll type up an argument.

Yeah sure.

Freedon Nadd became the ruler of Onderon with a short lightsaber.. As a spirit he was able to fling Vodo across the room, and make Kun his *****... He was very powerful.

How did he take over Onderon?

With his badassedness.

What he said

Originally posted by tdtd
Freedon Nadd became the ruler of Onderon with a short lightsaber.. As a spirit he was able to fling Vodo across the room, and make Kun his *****... He was very powerful.

He didn't do shit to Vodo.

Really? LOL... Ok, the comics lie and your opinion is canon.

You've got an attitude problem, Hord6. Perhaps you should calm down and go educate yourself.

So... taking over Onderon doesn't substantiate to anything.

He managed to Force Push Vodo, but Yoda did the same to Sidious when they were almost equals

And Kun wasn't too impressive at this point.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
So... taking over Onderon doesn't substantiate to anything.

He managed to Force Push Vodo, but Yoda did the same to Sidious when they were almost equals

And Kun wasn't too impressive at this point.

Taking over a planet singlehandidly with nothing but a short lightsaber doesn't substantiate to anything? And in case you forgot, he force pushed Vodo...AS A SPIRIT

Oh, you mean that attack that looked like this:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7161/ulicamuletmiss5gi.th.jpg

Yeah. Because that looks alot like a beam shot from a gauntlet on the hand that rips through flesh and stone.

Oh yeah. It sure did knock Nomi down. That's why Cay is pretty much falling back the same way she is, right?

Seeing what we want to see again, Nai?



That's nice if you were even talking about the same attack. You weren't. They aren't the same, no matter how much you'd like them to be, as I have shown.



Did he control multiple holes at once? And if I may remind you, big ****ing deal, it's just telekinesis.



Good job with the irrelevant misdirection. I like how Naga Sadow increasing his troop levels tenfold with tangible illusions and nearly conquering three planets with them simultaneously is somehow beneath Luke's "feat."

I like how Aleema's comparable illusions, among which were giant Space Grazers, are also somehow beneath Luke's despite the fact that both Aleema's and Sadow's were used in combat.



Ignorant and foolish. Yeah, normal telekinesis (albeit on a great scale) is somehow greater than an attack that disintigrates matter.

Taking over a planet singlehandidly with nothing but a short lightsaber doesn't substantiate to anything?

Of course it doesn't, unless we know how he did it. With this logic, I could say "Sidious conquered the Galaxy with a paragraph and a cloak". Had you said "He fought through all of Onderon's military" or something... that would substantiate to being powerful.

And in case you forgot, he force pushed Vodo...AS A SPIRIT

That makes him more powerful than Vodo indeed. How much power did he lose in the 350 years as a spirit, anyways?

He didn't take over the planet with a short lightsaber, dude. KOTOR II's items are hardly canon.

And anyway, he set himself up as a god to the backwater Onderonians. Only the Beast Riders stood against him.

He didn't even meet Vodo face to face as a spirit.

Wait... Where does it say Kun's amulet can rip through matter? When he used it on Aleema, all it did was knock her unconscious.

Who knows... IKC, I'd say it wasn't "Normal" telekenisis, you're just downplaying it now, and while it isn't "Greater" than Kun's attack, but different, Kun's attack isn't his own.. The people on these forums need to stop downgrading characters they dislike and exaggerating the accomplishments of characters they like. Luke's feats whether or not they were duplicated, are beyond incredible. With the exception of the sith spell he used to freeze the senate, Kun's abilities go as far as his amulet takes him.

That was probably not the same attack.

To Tarvos: It wasn't the same attack, at least I don't think so..

To Hord: What the hell does that have to do with anything, he put him on his ass as a spirit, that speaks volumes for his power.

I was talking to Tarvos.

No, it definitely wasn't the same attack. It didn't so much as singe her dress, whereas the other attack ripped through and vaporized flesh and stone.

Oh... Did he really have the skill at that point to control the magnitude of the blast?

Dude.

He did it long before he even encountered Qel-Droma and Aleema. I'm inclined to say yes given that he states that he's learned "everything" (regarding sith power).

And again, deduction leads us to believe that it wasn't the same attack.

I don't think he did. If he did, he would have likely used it on Odun Urr and Ulic and Aleema.

I don't think he did. If he did, he would have likely used it on Odun Urr and Ulic and Aleema.

He really didn't need to.

IKC, it COULD have been the same attack, as one of you said he might not have been angry enough for it to be as powerful as it was the first time. From what we know though he used his attack only once.

...

He killed Odan-Urr with a wave of his hand and knocked Aleema across the room when she tried to attack him.

May I ask what the point would be? Are you trying to say that because he didn't try to use an attack then that means he can't do it anymore?

Well, by that logic, Luke can't use green lightning ever because he only used it once.

All he knew about Ulic and Aleema was that they posed a threat to him, and that he had to eliminate them at all costs. He wouldn't have known whther he would need to or not.

Originally posted by tdtd
IKC, it COULD have been the same attack, as one of you said he might not have been angry enough for it to be as powerful as it was the first time. From what we know though he used his attack only once.

I said that, but then I told you why it's probably wrong: The attack he used on Aleema didn't so much as sizzle her, or even singe her dress. This is in contrast to the amulet beams which disintigrated the Wyrm's flesh and the temple stone.

There's also the minor point that the attacks appear different (and yes, I know they were penciled by two different artists).

Or more realistically, he was terrified of the blast, didn't think he could control it, and therefore didn't use it again(allegedly".

If he was faced with death I think he would be more then willing to use it again.

Originally posted by hord06
All he knew about Ulic and Aleema was that they posed a threat to him, and that he had to eliminate them at all costs. He wouldn't have known whther he would need to or not.

Originally posted by IKC
May I ask what the point would be? Are you trying to say that because he didn't try to use an attack then that means he can't do it anymore?

Well, by that logic, Luke can't use green lightning ever because he only used it once.

Originally posted by IKC
...

He killed Odan-Urr with a wave of his hand and knocked Aleema across the room when she tried to attack him.

May I ask what the point would be? Are you trying to say that because he didn't try to use an attack then that means he can't do it anymore?

Well, by that logic, Luke can't use green lightning ever because he only used it once.


Or more realistically the first time he used it, it nearly killed him and as a result he was afraid of it and never used it again. This all makes sense if he used his attack before killing Odan Urr, I forget the timeline.

Originally posted by tdtd
Or more realistically, he was terrified of the blast, didn't think he could control it, and therefore didn't use it again(allegedly".

Except he was never stated to be terrified of the blast, stated himself that he could direct it (while he was using it), and has since the occurance gained immensely in knowledge and power.

So yeah, I think he can do it just fine.

Originally posted by tdtd
Or more realistically the first time he used it, it nearly killed him and as a result he was afraid of it and never used it again. This all makes sense if he used his attack before killing Odan Urr, I forget the timeline.

It nearly killed him? He himself said that his hand was burned, and immediately afterward we see no damage to that very hand whatsoever!

Because he has gained and learned so much between the time he uses the blast and the time he reaches his peak in life (at the end of TSW), it's reasonable to state that he can use the beams with impunity.

And stop saying he was afraid of it. That's not stated anywhere.

If he was so afraid of it, why did he find/build another ****ing amulet?

I meant that he knew he couldn't control it because it nearly killed him. Yes he did gain knowledge but you don't know how much knowledge he gained, so you can't say 'immense' , and none of that really points to him being able to use the blast again. It would be a nice theory though.

Asshat huh, what a way to improve your argument killer, maybe you should stop getting butthurt everytime your character is questioned.. And how do you know that he reached his peak? I enjoy reading your assumptions.
And I don't know why he built another amulet, what the hell does that have to do with Sadow's amulet? Or are you just throwing out wild guesses here?

Originally posted by tdtd
I meant that he knew he couldn't control it because it nearly killed him. Yes he did gain knowledge but you don't know how much knowledge he gained, so you can't say 'immense' , and none of that really points to him being able to use the blast again. It would be a nice theory though.

Yes, I can say "immense." Want to know why?

Because he hasn't learned anything about actual Sith techniques by the time he used the amulet beams. He didn't even know how to speak Ancient Sith until he called the amulet to himself.

And then, at the end of the Sith War, he's launching Sith spells and referencing others he doesn't use, tooling the top Jedi Masters, etc.

Yeah. The knowledge and power he gained between those two occurances was immense.

And note that I said his peak in life. IMHO, he didn't really realize his full potential inasmuch as he had to release his spirit so early in his life.

Kun didn't build another amulet.

Originally posted by IKC
Yes, I can say "immense." Want to know why?

Because he hasn't learned anything about actual Sith techniques by the time he used the amulet beams. He didn't even know how to speak Ancient Sith until he called the amulet to himself.

And then, at the end of the Sith War, he's launching Sith spells and referencing others he doesn't use, tooling the top Jedi Masters, etc.

Yeah. The knowledge and power he gained between those two occurances was immense.

And note that I said his peak in life. IMHO, he didn't really realize his full potential inasmuch as he had to release his spirit so early in his life.

Atl east you admit it's your opinion. I don't know if you can really portray his knowledge as immense but he did learn something obviously. And where does it say he built another amulet(this is an actual question), we just know he had one

It's a safe assumption that he built the new amulet (the one he has on his right hand during TSW), and I'll explain:

The first amulet was worn by the Massassi Priest Zythmnr before Kun arrived at Yavin 4 and was treated as a holy relic. It was placed in the temple where Kun was to be sacrificed to Sadow's Sith Wyrm and Kun got ahold of it by calling it to his arm. It latched onto his left hand (because it's a left handed amulet) and he defeated the beast, blew apart the temple walls (and a bunch of massassi), and earned the obedience of the Massassi race.

Because no counterpart amulet was to be seen during this time, and because said counterpart appears on Kun's hand during TSW, it's safe to assume that Kun built the second one either based on schematics or on the original itself.

I believe this because such an amulet would have been treated as a holy relic by the Massassi just as the first one was, if it existed. Because it wasn't, I don't believe it existed yet.

I don't see how you have a problem with Kun constructing an amulet - Nadd was said to have done the same.


Oh, and tdtd, I only stated one sentence to be my opinion. Even then, it's a supported opinion given how young he was and how little time he had.

I don't have a problem with Kun constructing his own amulet, but the absence of proof comes in to play because we've never seen him use that amulet, nor do we know what it does. It COULD be a replica of Sadows or it could be something else, it is an unknown.

Except for the fact that we've only seen one type of gauntlet amulet and the fact that the replica has a similar appearance to the original.

It's actually an assumption that there are many different types of gauntlet amulets. We don't know that.

Originally posted by IKC
I said that, but then I told you why it's probably wrong: The attack he used on Aleema didn't so much as sizzle her, or even singe her dress. This is in contrast to the amulet beams which disintigrated the Wyrm's flesh and the temple stone.

There's also the minor point that the attacks appear different (and yes, I know they were penciled by two different artists).

IKC. We see Ulic in rage using a similar amulet against Nomi Sunrider (DLotS #6 when the Jedi wanted to bring Ulic back) and all it does is putting her on her ass for a few seconds.

You can't simply ignore all possibilities of force defence when talking about a force attacked used on a force user. And you really can't compare the Massassi Kun casually hit with that blast to force users like DE Sidious, DN Luke or (to stay in Kun's time period) Nomi Sunrider or Aleema.

That's like saying Luke can rip Kun into shreds because he was able to rip the engines of a spaceship apart (and Kun's skin / bones aren't tougher than durasteel) or toss him around like a ragdoll (unless Kun is somehow harder to move than several black holes). Arguing like this you can turn every debate here into a "who uses the force to kill first" or "who has shown the greater use of force TK and will force choke the opponent to death".

interesting read

Originally posted by IKC
Except for the fact that we've only seen one type of gauntlet amulet and the fact that the replica has a similar appearance to the original.

It's actually an assumption that there are many different types of gauntlet amulets. We don't know that.

Hmm...I always thought that this "second amulet" was an inconsisty in the comics since Exar is shown to carry Sadow's amulet on different hands in different comics...

It was a mistake from the artist.

Originally posted by hord06
It was a mistake from the artist.

So you are going to make that definitive statement without logical support? Wonderful.

LOL

Originally posted by Borbarad
IKC. We see Ulic in rage using a similar amulet against Nomi Sunrider (DLotS #6 when the Jedi wanted to bring Ulic back) and all it does is putting her on her ass for a few seconds.

Oh, you mean that attack that looked like this:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7161/ulicamuletmiss5gi.th.jpg

Yeah. Because that looks alot like a beam shot from a gauntlet on the hand that rips through flesh and stone.

Oh yeah. It sure did knock Nomi down. That's why Cay is pretty much falling back the same way she is, right?

Seeing what we want to see again, Nai?

(That was a repost. Try reading some more).



False analogy, logical fallacy. We know that Jedi are trained to resist Force telekinesis. We have no idea how amulet beams are blocked or even if they can be blocked.



Except you're wrong and arguing that it's a mistake begs for proof.

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/1204/naddbigsurprise8wb.th.jpg

There's the original right after Kun killed the beast. Note, left hand.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8776/kunmoreamulets3qw.th.jpg

There's the second one he has by the time of TSW. Note, right hand.

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/9262/kunevenmoreamulets9wj.th.jpg

There's a scan from the very same scene, but after Kun drops the Chancellor. Note, you can see the one on the left hand!

It isn't artist inconsistency, it's design. He has two. Accept it.

Jedi are trained to resist Force telekinesis huh, but to what point can they resist it and I'm assuming it depends on the mastery of it by any gven force user. Luke's telekinesis was shown at a great level, perhaps complete mastery over it. But I'm sure the Jed are trained to resist the basic telekinesis

The point is that we have a premise to go on for Kun's resistance of said hypothetical TK attack, but there's no premise to go on for anyone resisting the amulet beams.

Were all Jedi trained to resist force telekinesis? Was Kun specifically stated to be trained to resist it?

Inasmuch as all Jedi were trained to perform telekinesis, yeah.

Given what we saw in Anakin vs. Obi-Wan, it seems that telekinesis is resisted with telekinesis.

Ok but Obiwan and Anakin were equal. Are you saying Obiwan can resist Sadow's? And Kun might have been trained to resist it, but it isn't a definite.

Originally posted by IKC
Oh, you mean that attack that looked like this:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7161/ulicamuletmiss5gi.th.jpg

Yeah. Because that looks alot like a beam shot from a gauntlet on the hand that rips through flesh and stone.

Oh yeah. It sure did knock Nomi down. That's why Cay is pretty much falling back the same way she is, right?

Seeing what we want to see again, Nai?

(That was a repost. Try reading some more).

Is this why Ulic in the picture right before that is saying that Nomi should stop trying to use battle meditation on him and she is sitting on the ground while Cay is back on his feet again in the next picture ? Not even talking about the fact that Ulic was pointing the amulet at Nomi and Cay (as you can see in the picture you posted) labels the amulet "deadly" ?



Tell me: Is force lightning = force telikinesis because apparently Yoda blocked it with his bare hands. And we know that force TK can be used against a Jedi by a more powerful force user (see Dooku force choking Obi-Wan).
And yes...we don't know how the blasts work (but this can be said about virtually all force attacks) and if they can be blocked. But still: If they can be blocked a trained force user has a greater chance doing something like this compared to a temple wall or a Sith wyrm.
And don't forget that we don't know if Kun can block force lightning (Sidious) or emerald lightning (Luke) either.



Ah...forget it. I have looked at his fight against Vodo again and he is wearing amulets on both hands there.

I've wasted a lot of time I need to spend doing research. Reply comes later.

This does not indicate that it was the same attack. Are you telling me that Sith Amulets only have one fuction? Can only exhibit one method? Kun's attack literally came from his anger and was giant beams that got bigger as they got further from his hand. The two attacks don't even look alike.



And we don't know if Emerald lightning works on force users, much less someone like Kun. Yes, a more powerful force user can overpower a lesser user, but you'd have to establish that said invidual is stronger in the force.

more interesting read.

Oh, cool.

I tip my hat to Illustrious for handling it quite nicely. Saved me some time. Back to work!

Originally posted by Illustrious
This does not indicate that it was the same attack. Are you telling me that Sith Amulets only have one fuction? Can only exhibit one method?

That doesn't really matter imho.
The question is: Did Exar use the amulet against Aleema or didn't he do that ?

a)
If he did then he did so to kill her because that was the only reason he came to the place. Then it did nothing more than knock Aleema down for a minute which indicates that the amulet doesn't have a devastating effect on force users.

b)
If he didn't do that then we never saw him using that amulet against powerful force users. That makes me think about the question why he didn't do that. Possible answers:

1)
He just prefers a good lightsaber fight instead of a wtf-I-pwn you instakill. But in this case the question remains why he did tool Odan instead of fighting him with a lightsaber and didn't use the amulet against Ood Bnar after his transformation.

2)
He was still afraid of the amulets power - but I guess that is very unlikely.

3)
He knew that powerful force users would be able to block the effect of the amulet..

And the last possible explanation you gave yourself:


The amulet is powered by his anger meaning that the blasts are probably weaker if he isn't really pissed. At the very least I don't see Kun blasting people with his amulet on sight since he just never did that.



The same way we don't know Kun's amulet works on force users, much less someone like DN Luke or DE Sidious. As I said before: You can't ignore the possibilities of force defence against a attack that is powered by the force by saying "Kun blasted a wall - he can blast a powerful force user too".



True. The point is you have DE Sidious here who received a power up from the population of an entire planet and DN Luke who is at least the most powerful Jedi we have seen so far.

Apparently DE Sidious had enough power on his own to create a force storm (when Darth Bane in Jedi vs Sith was thinking that the same thing needs the power of all Sith Lords on Ruusan) meaning that he had tons of raw power and Luke has displayed insane amounts of raw power too.
I really don't see Kun and Nadd topping that. Of course I don't want to say that Sidious / Luke would simply force pwn Kun / Nadd - but they won't get force pwned vice versa. And in lightsaber combat this can go either way since we basically don't know anything about Nadd's duelling abilities.

Personally I think that Nadd would defeat Sidious, Luke would defeat Exar (both long fights) then Luke defeats Nadd. Or (changing opponents) Nadd and Sidious get defeated rather fast leaving Luke vs Exar and Luke wins (after a furious fight). At the very least that will be a damn close match...imho...

Out of interest, I'm not sure Nadd was too great a fighter himself. He left with...incomplete training. And Sidious, by DE, is pretty much declared the living avatar of the Dark side. Hell, in the chronology, he's called the mightiest Sith Lord in history. He's got a lot of powers Nadd's never seen before and couldn't anticipate

Lightsnake, a reference book does not create canon. You need to realize this.

Actually, it's not an RPG sorucebook and once again: your opinion determines NOTHING, LFL's stance? It is official, you are not. Sourcebooks have retconned numerous things and their information was used in the books. I don't see you complaining when KJA was writing those references that you seem to use in your arguments. In fact, that reference made Revan lightside and the Sith Empire 2000 years old by time of collapse. Both of which accepted and acknowledged by Leland Chee. Dark Emprie and Empire's End, before and After TOTJ, support Palpatine's status.


And according to the Holocron: C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

LFL = The creators of Star Wars and they published this, retconning some things and clarifying others. Especially as how The Dark Side Sourcebook brought to light numerous things, sourcebooks brought out much more on the subjects of things like Lumiya, and Tremayne and Lord Cronal, all established characters...Jerec and his men, Arden Lyn, numerous Jedi...even things on the Ancient Sith and Kun, when TOTJ sourcebook was written by KJA...who wrote the original Chronology with dan Wallace...no objections then when it was creating canon.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, it's not an RPG sorucebook and once again: your opinion determines NOTHING, LFL's stance? It is official, you are not. Sourcebooks have retconned numerous things and their information was used in the books. I don't see you complaining when KJA was writing those references that you seem to use in your arguments. In fact, that reference made Revan lightside and the Sith Empire 2000 years old by time of collapse. Both of which accepted and acknowledged by Leland Chee. Dark Emprie and Empire's End, before and After TOTJ, support Palpatine's status.

Still you didn't get it. TOTJ was written after DE and Veitch (the creator of DE) participated in that. Now he and Anderson - who are responsible for every Ancient Sith appearing in the SW universe labelled Marka Ragnos "the Sith Lord" and "the most powerful of the most powerful" in the "Golden Age" of the Sith.
And you failed to provide a link to Leland Chee's acknowledgement several times, dude.



Uh-hu. The problem is that Sidious as the "most powerful" is not part of any story - in fact that statement is contradicted by the actual stories.



Dark Side Sourcebook = WotC and not LFL - sorry.
Maybe you should have a careful look at the word "sourcebook" and maybe you'll find out why those things can't create canon or contradict things in the actual storyline.

Just a question, could "Golden age of the Sith" possibly stand for the race sith only?

And Empire's End was written after TOTJ, the NEC was written after TOTJ. And Palp's status as strongest is certainly part of DE and remains uncontradicted. It's outright confirmed now, actually. Essential Chronology is no sourcebook and the LFL logo is right there

Fine, Leland's acknowledgment of several matters. And by the way, RPG sourcebooks? Story info goes, it's C canon according to Mr. Chee and is right on his Blog.
Firstly:
The Holocron is divided into 4 levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon always overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is "non-canon". What-if stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.


http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=0645
Leland Acknowledging the retcon to Sith History.





"Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered ”G” canon. Next we have what we call continuity ”C” canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary ”S” continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. Lastly there is non-continuity ”N” which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut."

"By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television."»
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWCanon2.html#III-Canon

See? And Ragnos is never, EVER called the strongest Sith who ever lived.

And before anyone tries: The films are the highest source of canon and overwrite literally everything else, but there's a level of precedence and retcons have occured before. Dan Wallace himself said Palp> All

It does stand for the Ancient empire only, that's what the golden age meant.

Damn, Lightsnake. You just are a broken record. We already refuted this nonsense beforehand, extensively. What do you hope to accomplish here?

You refuted an official statement from a book by LFL and the statement that books by LFL are C canon, thus making them EU continuity?
Once again...from the link, from Wookie an from Leland Chee:


C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.


See, Janus? Note that RPG sourcebooks bit? the stories and general background info are C canon? Notice how the chronology is a BOOK? and NOT an RPG sourcebook? Notice that same official source states that Palpatine> All Sith? Ok, then.

Yes maybe he is greater than all sith in accomplishments, but not more powerful than.

The link I keep providing says directly 'most powerful' and his displays of power eclipse any other Sith. Hell, the summary of his knowledge eclipses all other Sith

Im sorry, but I have trouble reading every single link. Its too blurry.

I have a friend who may be able to get a better resolution....do you have the New Essential Chronology? Its a scan of page 84. Any IM? I could try to send it via there

Pardon me for being stupid, but whats an IM? If its what I think it is then no I dont have one. And no I dont have The New Essential Chronology.

IM= Instant MEssanger.

Anyways, if you get the chance, check out the NEC...page 84, on the right

In the meanwhile, just hold out for my friend's better scan

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Lightsnake, a reference book does not create canon. You need to realize this.

Ok...Did you miss that C canon quote? Anything in the EU is in the continuity unless it contradicts, then it works out. This doesn't contradict. Everything from books to RPG sourcebooks, minus game stats and I've posted the quote proving it

The Dark Side sourcebook is older than a lot of the new comics, it isn't canon

umm...dude? The NEw Essential Chronology and Dark Side sourcebook came out in 2005....the last TOTJ was...1997 I think. Sourcebooks are canon, C-level canon

I don't think the Dark side sourcebook came out in 2005, but my internet is slower than 56k right now so I'll check later

My error, 2001 actually.

Irrelevant misdirections all around. Sourcebooks and guides cannot create canon, nor can they contradict the primary source material. Only primary source material can contradict primary source material. Your secondary source material, ergo, is made entirely null and void by the existence of TOTJ.

Lmao, Lightsnake.

a)
You did notice that Mr Chee didn't even notice a contradiction in the source material ? Read this here:

http://blogs.starwars.com/LordScourge/7

And Mr Chee's reaction to this seems to be ignorance. Maybe he noticed that they did cause some huge mess with the NEC at this point ?

b)
You should read your own arguments.



Games and sourcebooks are a special case. You have to consider the overall ranking in terms of C-Canon:

Books > Comics / Cartoons > Sourcebooks > Games

The sourcebooks aren't able to overwrite statements given in the Comics or Books since they are just additional information on certain topics. POTJ sourcebook labels Yoda the most powerful Jedi (even compared to NJO Luke). That is dumb. And the statements about Sidious aren't canon either. Live with it.

c)
The two comics released dealing with the Ancient Sith Empire (GAotS, FotSE) were released in 1997 / 1998. Empire's End was released in 1997 too. Same with the DS sourcebook.

d)
Dan Wallace can toss in his opinion like he wants but an inconvenient fact for you: He isn't able to contradict Anderson and Veitch who invented all persons (DE Sidious, the Ancient Sith Lords) who labelled Ragnos the "most powerful". And his statement that Sidious was the "greatest" doesn't mean "most powerful".

Nice homework, Nai.

Yeah, yean, IKC, isn't it great this isn't a sourcebook? And Scourge's contradiction was fixed on the boards: The sith species extends back millenia, but the empire was established 7000 BBY. See, it's really simple. It was retconned and LFL accepted it. Leland Chee confirmed it, YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT.

And since the NEC contradicts nothing, has not been retconned and is a BOOK, it goes. And Nai, did you not read what I posted? Sidious is declared the most powerful, plain and simple. I scanned in the damn page

Sorry, it wasn't confirmed, don't know what you're talking about. Who cares what NEC says, maybe you lack the reading comprehension skills necessary for ths forum but I'll repeat Nai's response to you..

Books>Comics>Sourcebooks>Games..

Congrats, you've established nothing but your obvious fanboyism.

Which is why sourcebooks have overwritten books and comics before, right?

http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/4

Once again, Books>Comics>SB>Games.

And NEC is a book.

It's a source book.