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No weapons. Both sides have a day of prep. Both are bloodlust and are going for the kill.

Debate.

Karnak is gonna take this one. Not only is he a flat out amazing martial artist, he's gonna see Batman's weaknesses easily.

Karnak.

What's Batman going to do to someone who is faster, stronger, and more durable then him, plus doesn't feel pain or bleed? And who can touch one place in his body and collapse him? Plus is one of the best fighters in Marvel?

Karnak is better in every single area, bat's is human , Karnak is IN-human .

Not only that but what can one day of prep do for a guy who's fighting in H2H ?

^ cosigned, batman gets owned, karnak owns more or less everyone at h2h

Only person in Marvel with a good chance would be either Taskmaster or Cap.

Wait till some of his fanboys get in here. They'll reiterate Batman's victories over a bunch of Gorillas, the Hulk, and Doomsday clones.

Then why do you even made this fight in this place? If you already convince that Karnak beats Batman then what's your point with this? If the fanboys (which is becoming an ironic term) response seems mediocre to you why go on?

^ cosigned, too many people are making threads just to get fanboy's to post in them

Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Only person in Marvel with a good chance would be either Taskmaster or Cap.
And Spider-Man. NOT because I am a fan (I am btw), but with his reflexes, agility and spider sense I can see him winning most fights, especially if he knows Karnak.

Otherwise, Spider-Man probably goes down.

And there are lots of other people who can take Karnak : Sue Richards, Torch, Juggernaut, Dr. Strange, Thor, Captain Marvel (the black woman).

People I'm not sure : Prof X, Shadowcat, Colossus, Namor, Bullseye (don't underestimate him)

Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Only person in Marvel with a good chance would be either Taskmaster or Cap.
Mantis would devour Karnak............

We mean in H2H

Originally posted by who?-kid
And Spider-Man. NOT because I am a fan (I am btw), but with his reflexes, agility and spider sense I can see him winning most fights, especially if he knows Karnak.

Otherwise, Spider-Man probably goes down.

And there are lots of other people who can take Karnak : Sue Richards, Torch, Juggernaut, Dr. Strange, Thor, Captain Marvel (the black woman).

People I'm not sure : Prof X, Shadowcat, Colossus, Namor, Bullseye (don't underestimate him)

They probably meant h2h guys. Street level.

And Spider-Man can take Karnak and Namor can't?

Spider-Sense isn't THAT big of an advantage. Big, yes, but not the entire deciding factor.

And all the guys in your list (except Bullseye and Colossus, I think) could probably take him.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
They probably meant h2h guys. Street level.
Oh. In that case, ignore my previous post (a shame though, such a masterpiece...)

Na - who ?



Agreed.

Time will tell (I hope).

How in the hell can Colossus not take Karnak out ?

Originally posted by grey fox
How in the hell can Colossus not take Karnak out ?

Karnak is faster then he is...I think he can shatter Colossus before he can hit Karnak. Everything has a weakness...except Black Bolt.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Karnak is faster then he is...I think he can shatter Colossus before he can hit Karnak. Everything has a weakness...except Black Bolt.

Ahhhh , now that makes sense.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Karnak is faster then he is...I think he can shatter Colossus before he can hit Karnak. Everything has a weakness...except Black Bolt.

Damn straight. Karnak is the man.

I was gonna start a Colossus VS. Karnak thread... But I changed my mind.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
Damn straight. Karnak is the man.

I was gonna start a Colossus VS. Karnak thread... But I changed my mind.

Kinda makes you wonder though , i mean a guy who has been heated up to 'the same level as a star' is imperfect , whereas a fleshy mutant (At the end of the day that is what in-humans are) is perfect.

Methinks Karnak has a version of 'Hero Worship ' imbued within his powers.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5315/karnak81jx.gif
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9915/karnak73ee.gif


Strength feats:
http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=karnak54yz.gif
He is a kid here:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/687/karnak24ux.gif

skill - http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/1467/karnak3rm.gif
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1752/karnak37zv.gif

Speed:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3815/karnak47nt.gif

Badassery:
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2660/karnak10ox.gif

Originally posted by grey fox
We mean in H2H
Mantis could take Karnak H2H...........

Karnak flattens Batmn so easily, it would be rather funny.

Champion could also take Karnak.

Black Bolt could beat Karnak in Hand to Hand.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
Wait till some of his fanboys get in here. They'll reiterate Batman's victories over a bunch of Gorillas, the Hulk, and Doomsday clones.
Bwahahahaha..

Originally posted by Thanos_6383
Bwahahahaha..

Batman would................................lose! Kinda surprised hearing that from me?

Originally posted by batdude123
Batman would................................lose! Kinda surprised hearing that from me?

The world...it's shattering around us!

Cap comes in and owns them both, without the shield

Here's the crazy thing. Could Karnak find a weakness in Cap's shield? Ponder that for a moment.

Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Here's the crazy thing. Could Karnak find a weakness in Cap's shield? Ponder that for a moment. nope, becuase he'd be too busy tryin to remove it from his rectum

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Karnak.

What's Batman going to do to someone who is faster, stronger, and more durable then him, plus doesn't feel pain or bleed? And who can touch one place in his body and collapse him? Plus is one of the best fighters in Marvel? Stop sweating me.

Originally posted by batdude123
Batman would................................lose! Kinda surprised hearing that from me? You have proven yourself worthy, and thus I crown thee a knight of the round table....seriously batman with prep is a different story.

Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Here's the crazy thing. Could Karnak find a weakness in Cap's shield? Ponder that for a moment.

Yup , Thor broke it ONCE .

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Then why do you even made this fight in this place? If you already convince that Karnak beats Batman then what's your point with this? If the fanboys (which is becoming an ironic term) response seems mediocre to you why go on?


Finally, someone recognizes it too; there's so much anti-Batman sentiment on this forum.

Batman in pure h2h will lose. Knowing Bruce he will not take this pure h2h.

Spiderman now with his given powers will beat Karnak. Damn the guy has a 360 degree vision, able to feel vibration particles. He's more of a spider these days, a strong one at that too.

Karnak winsOriginally posted by MrHeavySilence
Finally, someone recognizes it too; there's so much anti-Batman sentiment on this forum. But the people who "recognize" it are..................... I think it's an anti-Batfanboy sentiment. People have grown tired of "find a way" posts and one-sided scenarios where the opponent stands there like a statue and does nothing while Batman ties them up or somethingOriginally posted by Thunderstrike
Here's the crazy thing. Could Karnak find a weakness in Cap's shield? Ponder that for a moment. Makes my brain hurt

Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Here's the crazy thing. Could Karnak find a weakness in Cap's shield? Ponder that for a moment.

Yeah...... but he wouldn't be able to exert enough force to exploit it...... the shields "weak point" is probably still stronger than regular adamantium

That's deep.

Batman fights dirty ,he hits him in the ball and karnak goes down crying Batman wins end of discussion!!!

Batman Loses

It's going to end something like this

http://lolzing.com/albums/GIFsMthruZ/popupbackkick.gif

Karnak crushes Batman easily.

Batman wins easily he knocks Karnak out.

Let's not forget about Karnak's greatest power, he's a multi-task thinker on the level of Midnighter. Super-friggin-human brain capacity and intelligent....s'why his head's so big..and meaty. Oh so meaty.

Originally posted by long pig
Let's not forget about Karnak's greatest power, he's a multi-task thinker on the level of Midnighter. Super-friggin-human brain capacity and intelligent....s'why his head's so big..and meaty. Oh so meaty. Thanks

Originally posted by long pig
Let's not forget about Karnak's greatest power, he's a multi-task thinker on the level of Midnighter. Super-friggin-human brain capacity and intelligent....s'why his head's so big..and meaty. Oh so meaty.

^

Originally posted by Milkie
Batman Loses

It's going to end something like this

http://lolzing.com/albums/GIFsMthruZ/popupbackkick.gif That's pretty much it though. Bats doesn't stand much of a chance.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Karnak.

What's Batman going to do to someone who is faster, stronger, and more durable then him, plus doesn't feel pain or bleed? And who can touch one place in his body and collapse him? Plus is one of the best fighters in Marvel?

thats not wat gets him its that karnaks munant power is h2h

Originally posted by Milkie
Batman Loses

It's going to end something like this

http://lolzing.com/albums/GIFsMthruZ/popupbackkick.gif
and that goes for Midnighter, Deathstroke too. Damn that is some funny sh**, and I can see that happen really.

Originally posted by He-guy88
thats not wat gets him its that karnaks munant power is h2h Karnak is not a mutant.

bump

as much as i want batman to win, karnak takes it, 8/10

Originally posted by cmack
as much as i want batman to win, karnak takes it, 8/10

Batman wouldn't get any wins in.

why is that ?

and why couldnt batman pull a win out, you would personally give batman 0/10 chance against him, batman has defeated many great martial artist, he could pull an upset

Not a fair fight in my book .
Inhuman vs Human .
Karnak should win .

I would rather see a Karnak vs Jack of Hearts.

Could Karnak beat J-o-H ?

T'Challa has embarrassed Karnak in hand to hand combat twice.

Batman would do the same, and faster.

good old soljer, saying what every one else was thinking

ABC logic FTW?

It's better then what I here from karnak supporters.........which is simply " he can see weak points so he wins"

what kind of cop out is that. it not even that effective vs skilled MA's

Originally posted by Soljer
T'Challa has embarrassed Karnak in hand to hand combat twice.

Batman would do the same, and faster.
You mean the same Karnak that soloed Crystal(and several other Inhumans) in one of those encounters, and also has the whole Surfer/armbar to his credit?

Point is just because it did happen, doesn't mean it SHOULD have happened. Karnak has a definite strength and durability advantage, and possibly has a speed advantage as well(not to mention his capacity for one hit KO's). I'm not saying that Bats can't pull an upset or two, but I see Karnak pulling the majority if he's not jobbing.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You mean the same Karnak that soloed Crystal(and several other Inhumans) in one of those encounters, and also has the whole Surfer/armbar to his credit?

Point is just because it did happen, doesn't mean it SHOULD have happened. Karnak has a definite strength and durability advantage, and possibly has a speed advantage as well(not to mention his capacity for one hit KO's). I'm not saying that Bats can't pull an upset or two, but I see Karnak pulling the majority if he's not jobbing.

You can call it jobbing all you like, but you aren't reconciling all the evidence, goob. He has some insane feats to his credit - but so does batman.

And, Batman has a much MUCH better track record against credible martial artists.

Karnak SHOULD be faster and stronger than T'Challa. He should stomp T'challa in a melee fight - but he doesn't. There's a reason for that, and it's that reason that will make him lose to Batman here.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
It's better then what I here from karnak supporters.........which is simply " he can see weak points so he wins"

what kind of cop out is that. it not even that effective vs skilled MA's

Karnaks ability extends far beyond seeing weak points. Most skilled MA don't see "Weak Points" Like Karnak, instead they have a knowledge of the human anatomy from their many years of training in combat, therefore they know where to strike to do the most damage, or how to hold/throw someone, or even take advantage of a weakness in an opponents defense.

Karnak can do much more with his power, on top of that, he is stronger/faster/more agile then batman.

Im not saying Karnak would take the majority, im undecided right now, Im just saying, ABC logic shouldn't dictate the win.

Originally posted by Soljer


Karnak SHOULD be faster and stronger than T'Challa. He should stomp T'challa in a melee fight - but he doesn't. There's a reason for that, and it's that reason that will make him lose to Batman here.

Because T'challa is much faster, that is all.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Karnaks ability extends far beyond seeing weak points. Most skilled MA don't see "Weak Points" Like Karnak, instead they have a knowledge of the human anatomy from their many years of training in combat, therefore they know where to strike to do the most damage, or how to hold/throw someone, or even take advantage of a weakness in an opponents defense.

Karnak can do much more with his power, on top of that, he is stronger/faster/more agile then batman.

Im not saying Karnak would take the majority, im undecided right now, Im just saying, ABC logic shouldn't dictate the win.
still karnak abiltiy is still useless vs a skilled MA since they alreayd know were there weak points are and were akrnak weak points are as well.

karnak ability is good, but vs op tier and second tier fighters it really not that effective.

he really has no agility or speed feats that give him an edge over batman.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You mean the same Karnak that soloed Crystal(and several other Inhumans) in one of those encounters, and also has the whole Surfer/armbar to his credit?



You mena the same "Black Panther" right?

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Because T'challa is much faster, that is all.
black panther speed advantage over batman really is not much.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
black panther speed advantage over batman really is not much.

I was saying he was faster then Karnak, but I guess he is faster then batman also.

Originally posted by Soljer
You can call it jobbing all you like, but you aren't reconciling all the evidence, goob. He has some insane feats to his credit - but so does batman.

And, Batman has a much MUCH better track record against credible martial artists.

Karnak SHOULD be faster and stronger than T'Challa. He should stomp T'challa in a melee fight - but he doesn't. There's a reason for that, and it's that reason that will make him lose to Batman here.
I AM thinking of all the evidence. Aside from two bad showings against BP(who nearly EVERYONE in Marvel has a bad showing or two against at this point) there's nothing in Karnak's record to suggest that Bats could put him down.

And what do you mean he SHOULD be much stronger/faster? Karnak has the feats to support his being Bats physical superior.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
I was saying he was faster then Karnak, but I guess he is faster then batman also.
I would say capt and black panther have a slighty speed advantage over bats becuase there true peak-humans

Originally posted by Apolloknight
You mena the same "Black Panther" right?
Oops. Yep that's what I meant.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I AM thinking of all the evidence. Aside from two bad showings against BP(who nearly EVERYONE in Marvel has a bad showing or two against at this point) there's nothing in Karnak's record to suggest that Bats could put him down.

And what do you mean he SHOULD be much stronger/faster? Karnak has the feats to support his being Bats physical superior.
who has karnak defeated that was a skilled fight?

I mean as I recall he neevr really versed any top tier fighters.

I just wondering I could be wrong

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Because T'challa is much faster, that is all.
Actually, Karnak has some impressive speed feats to his credit as well. We're talking about someone who was able to vibrate his hand fast enough to hit an intangible Vision.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
who has karnak defeated that was a skilled fight?

I mean as I recall he neevr really versed any top tier fighters.

I just wondering I could be wrong
BP is actually the only actual MA I can think of that he's went up against(that's normally Karnak's role in the story). But I'm not trying to say that he's got Bats beat skill wise(not many do after all), I'm saying that he's skilled enough to pull the win because of his superior physicality and capacity for one hit KO's.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Actually, Karnak has some impressive speed feats to his credit as well. We're talking about someone who was able to vibrate his hand fast enough to hit an intangible Vision.

Very true, T'challa has some impressive speed feats himself though, but I dont wanna get off topci. BTW, do you have those scans of BP taking on the inhumans, or know what comic it is in?

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Very true, T'challa has some impressive speed feats himself though, but I dont wanna get off topci. BTW, do you have those scans of BP taking on the inhumans, or know what comic it is in?
Give me a bit and I can find out...

Karnack

Originally posted by darthgoober
I AM thinking of all the evidence. Aside from two bad showings against BP(who nearly EVERYONE in Marvel has a bad showing or two against at this point) there's nothing in Karnak's record to suggest that Bats could put him down.

And what do you mean he SHOULD be much stronger/faster? Karnak has the feats to support his being Bats physical superior.

Which feats support Karnak being so vastly superior, if you do not mind me asking?

Originally posted by Soljer
Which feats support Karnak being so vastly superior, if you do not mind me asking?

karnack has found weak spots and injured vastly superior beings and stuff with his hands. I haven't read aything with him in aloong time but I do remember that. one hit from Karnack into one of Batman's join's and he'll be limbless.

I have to agree with soljer here karnak speed feats have not been that impressive from what I just viewed.

Originally posted by Soljer
Which feats support Karnak being so vastly superior, if you do not mind me asking?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Actually, Karnak has some impressive speed feats to his credit as well. We're talking about someone who was able to vibrate his hand fast enough to hit an intangible Vision.

Or you can take a stroll over to the respect thread.

Also, pay no heed to Battlehammer's comments as he thinks Karnak's ability to drop someone with tap is the same as a martial artist's ability to strike a nerve.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
karnack has found weak spots and injured vastly superior beings and stuff with his hands. I haven't read aything with him in aloong time but I do remember that. one hit from Karnack into one of Batman's join's and he'll be limbless.
here is the thing.........batman knows all his weak spots

I've read the respect thread.

I want Goob to enlighten me on which feats are so vastly superior to Batman's.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
here is the thing.........batman knows all his weak spots

You brain just can't comprehend Karnak's ability, can it?

Originally posted by Soljer
I've read the respect thread.

I want Goob to enlighten me on which feats are so vastly superior to Batman's.

Well, if you're not capable of doing that yourself then maybe that tells us a little something about you.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
here is the thing.........batman knows all his weak spots

Yes he does for a human being. karnack sees beyond those. ANd he's fast enough to certainly hit one of them. He is so good, even a block can be painful if he hits you knowing that you are going to block.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Yes he does for a human being. karnack sees beyond those. ANd he's fast enough to certainly hit one of them. He is so good, even a block can be painful if he hits you knowing that you are going to block.
here the thing karnak can't make up weak points...........

any top tier MA knows were all there weak points are.

karnak weak point abilties is pritty mute vs skilled MA's.

it good verse guys like thing.

Originally posted by Soljer
Which feats support Karnak being so vastly superior, if you do not mind me asking?
Well as far as strength goes, I think his being able to actually throw a large section of a brick wall at high speed puts him over Bats. Superior durability is shown by shrugging off shots from Gorgon and Blackbolt(both of whom have super strength) and resisting Visions "phase my hand into your body" attack. Speed is actually comparable, but Karnak DOES have the feat of being able to vibrate his hand so rapidly he was able to hit a phased Vision.

Originally posted by llagrok
You brain just can't comprehend Karnak's ability, can it?




oh i understand it perfectly. However you think it better then it is.

his power can't just start making up weak point.........

Originally posted by Battlehammer
here the thing karnak can't make up weak points...........

any top tier MA knows were all there weak points are.

karnak weak point abilties is pritty mute vs skilled MA's.

it good verse guys like thing.

YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!

Geez, how ****ing retarded can you get. Karnak doesn't hit traditional weak spots on your body, he finds on particular weak spot that no one has a ****ing clue where is and he hits it once.

Can you even count to ****ing 5?

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/4471/avengersv1ann1229yq3.jpg

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/1163/amazingadv197100918nz1.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well as far as strength goes, I think his being able to actually throw a large section of a brick wall at high speed puts him over Bats. Superior durability is shown by shrugging off shots from Gorgon and Blackbolt(both of whom have super strength) and resisting Visions "phase my hand into your body" attack. Speed is actually comparable, but Karnak DOES have the feat of being able to vibrate his hand so rapidly he was able to hit a phased Vision.

Vibrating his hand seems very much like an outlier to me. More than compensated for by the fact that he can easily be stomped upon by guys like T'Challa. A fact that plays right into batman's hand considering that he's been referred to as faster than some metahumans.

As far as the rest go, Batman's taken shots from Superman, Wonder Woman, Grundy, Captain Marvel, et cetera.

He is likely weaker than Karnak, but bench pressing a couple tons certainly doesn't hurt.

And he is almost certainly more skilled - you yourself don't even dispute this. .

Why this is so greatly in Karnak's favor to some people, I do not understand.

Originally posted by llagrok
You brain just can't comprehend Karnak's ability, can it?



Well, if you're not capable of doing that yourself then maybe that tells us a little something about you.

No need to insinuate anything about me, thanks. On the contrary, it apparently just shows your ignorance of Batman's higher echelon of capabilities.

Originally posted by Soljer
No need to insinuate anything about me, thanks. On the contrary, it apparently just shows your ignorance of Batman's higher echelon of capabilities.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1727/theincrediblehulkv21751sx6.jpg

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8103/aa0204to9.jpg

Batman could do the same?

Originally posted by Soljer
Vibrating his hand seems very much like an outlier to me. More than compensated for by the fact that he can easily be stomped upon by guys like T'Challa. A fact that plays right into batman's hand considering that he's been referred to as faster than some metahumans.

As far as the rest go, Batman's taken shots from Superman, Wonder Woman, Grundy, Captain Marvel, et cetera.

He is likely weaker than Karnak, but bench pressing a couple tons certainly doesn't hurt.

And he is almost certainly more skilled - you yourself don't even dispute this. .

Why this is so greatly in Karnak's favor to some people, I do not understand.
You say GUYS like T'challya, but who other than he are you talking about?

And while I know Bats has taken shots from those you listed, I'm pretty sure we can agree on his doing so to be BS due to the fact that at the end of the day he's still human. Karnak on the other hand is an INHUMAN that actually has a superhuman degree of durability, which makes his taking those shots much more creditable.

Originally posted by llagrok
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1727/theincrediblehulkv21751sx6.jpg

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8103/aa0204to9.jpg

Batman could do the same?

Superman doesn't have to be able to replicate Quasar's abilities to take the win against him.

Saying "Could X do exactly what Y can?" doesn't mean Y beats X.

Just means they have different capabilities. And Batman's speed and skill advantage means that Karnak can see all fourteen trillion of Batman's secret weak points, but never get the shot at them.

Batman wins.

Originally posted by Soljer
Superman doesn't have to be able to replicate Quasar's abilities to take the win against him.

Saying "Could X do exactly what Y can?" doesn't mean Y beats X.

Just means they have different capabilities. And Batman's speed and skill advantage means that Karnak can see all fourteen trillion of Batman's secret weak points, but never get the shot at them.

Batman wins.

Speed advantage, sure dur

We're still waiting on that mass of scans Soljer.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You say GUYS like T'challya, but who other than he are you talking about?

And while I know Bats has taken shots from those you listed, I'm pretty sure we can agree on his doing so to be BS due to the fact that at the end of the day he's still human. Karnak on the other hand is an INHUMAN that actually has a superhuman degree of durability, which makes his taking those shots much more creditable.

You can't equate this with human < inhuman.

ESPECIALLY when crossing universes.

All the evidence you need is in Captain America. He has feats that put him above some people that DO have low level superhuman strength or speed - yet he still is only 'peak human.'

When you cross universes, the line becomes even blurrier. Batman is a DC Human which may not be exactly the same as a Marvel Human. Past that, he has also been compared to metahumans on more than one occasion, implying that due to his intense training, he is no longer 'merely' human.

Originally posted by Soljer
Superman doesn't have to be able to replicate Quasar's abilities to take the win against him.

Saying "Could X do exactly what Y can?" doesn't mean Y beats X.

Just means they have different capabilities. And Batman's speed and skill advantage means that Karnak can see all fourteen trillion of Batman's secret weak points, but never get the shot at them.

Batman wins.
Wait what speed feats does Bats have that put him over Karnak?

Originally posted by llagrok
YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!

Geez, how ****ing retarded can you get. Karnak doesn't hit traditional weak spots on your body, he finds on particular weak spot that no one has a ****ing clue where is and he hits it once.

Can you even count to ****ing 5?

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/4471/avengersv1ann1229yq3.jpg

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/1163/amazingadv197100918nz1.jpg
still deos not prove your point...........


skill MA's know were the weak points are. They ahve study the body they know were there are vulnerable.

kanak can't make up a new weak spot out of thin air.

Here the thing you clearly don't get it and are overestimating karnak abilities.

now karnak could know weak points such as were people had broken bones before and use that against them, but thats about it. any other weak point batman would clearly know about

like I said karnak ability is good verse people like thing not vs skilled MA's

Originally posted by llagrok
Speed advantage, sure dur

We're still waiting on that mass of scans Soljer.

When did I promise any mass of scans? I never said I'd post a damned thing. I only dig out scans when I'm invested in a thread, and I really don't care enough about either combatant here to whip out comic books and take the time to scan them in.

You can 'dur' me all you want. Doesn't change the fact that Batman'd beat Karnak, .

So could a skilled martial artist crack a building in half by hitting the street? Or make the FF tower shake? Or vibrate his hand fast enough to strike Vision while he's tangible?

Originally posted by Soljer
When did I promise any mass of scans? I never said I'd post a damned thing. I only dig out scans when I'm invested in a thread, and I really don't care enough about either combatant here to whip out comic books and take the time to scan them in.

You can 'dur' me all you want. Doesn't change the fact that Batman'd beat Karnak, .

Nor does it change the fact that you provide 0 scans and back up your statements with nothing.

why would a skill MA need to do any of that......

msot of what your bringing up has nothing to do with this fight

Originally posted by Soljer
You can't equate this with human < inhuman.

ESPECIALLY when crossing universes.

All the evidence you need is in Captain America. He has feats that put him above some people that DO have low level superhuman strength or speed - yet he still is only 'peak human.'

When you cross universes, the line becomes even blurrier. Batman is a DC Human which may not be exactly the same as a Marvel Human. Past that, he has also been compared to metahumans on more than one occasion, implying that due to his intense training, he is no longer 'merely' human.
This isn't a matter of human<Inhuman in general, just in the creditability of the feats themselves. Batman taking a full on punch from a class 50 and walking away unharmed is BS no matter how you cut it because we know for a fact that the body of even a peak human shouldn't be able to take it. For someone with actual super human durability though, shrugging off a class 50 punch is a lot more creditable.

Originally posted by darthgoober
This isn't a matter of human<Inhuman in general, just in the creditability of the feats themselves. Batman taking a full on punch from a class 50 and walking away unharmed is BS no matter how you cut it because we know for a fact that the body of even a peak human shouldn't be able to take it. For someone with actual super human durability though, shrugging off a class 50 punch is a lot more creditable.

However, despite what 'bios' may lead you to believe, Batman doing it over, and over, and over again, from Superman, Wonder Woman, Grundy, Marvel, Black Adam, et cetera DOES lend it some credibility.

Originally posted by Soljer


Batman's the far more established character here. A better question is; 'What speed feats does KARNAK have to his name that puts him on Batman's level?'



This should look very familiar. None of it looks superior to Bruce, to me. So much for Karnak's super-awesome-better-inhuman physiology. .

Not to even mention his only real direct comparisons against a real martial artist - and we're back to the T'Challa issue.

T'Challa stomping on him twice with the utmost of ease leads us to only one conclusions; Batman'd do the same, and faster.
Batman may be more established, but I personally don't know of any speed feats which puts him over Karnak. As I said, to me it seems as though their speed is comparable. The area's I mentioned Karnak being superior in were strength and durability.

but remeber batman has armor designed for such things

Originally posted by Soljer
However, despite what 'bios' may lead you to believe, Batman doing it over, and over, and over again, from Superman, Wonder Woman, Grundy, Marvel, Black Adam, et cetera DOES lend it some credibility.
What so you think we should bump Captain America and Batman up to Iron Man level on the tier list now?

Originally posted by darthgoober
What so you think we should bump Captain America and Batman up to Iron Man level on the tier list now?

Kindly do not put words in my mouth. doped.

Originally posted by Soljer
Kindly do not put words in my mouth. doped.
But despite what the bios say, they constantly do things that would put them there don't they? I mean, both have taken shots from and knocked around class 100's on a pretty consistent basis, so if the consistency dictates that their feats are actually valid, then both need a MAJOR bump.

Originally posted by darthgoober
they constantly do things that would put them there don't they?

Nope. But they do plenty of things to give them the win over Karnak.

How about this.

Rick Jones has withstood blows from the Hulk. Let's get that sucker up to high meta. Batman with his suit and batman without his suit makes a world of difference. Batman is above peak human when he has his suit on.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
why would a skill MA need to do any of that......

msot of what your bringing up has nothing to do with this fight

It has everything to do with this fight.

You claim that Karnak's ability is nothing special for skilled martial artists. Yet when I give you feats that no martial artist can copy, you claim that it's not relevant.

Please explain your logic.

Originally posted by Soljer
Nope. But they do plenty of things to give them the win over Karnak.

Scans?

Originally posted by Soljer
Nope. But they do plenty of things to give them the win over Karnak.
I think that hanging with guys on par with Namor EVERY time he goes up against them would count as consistently putting Cap there.

And what is this "plenty" that they do that puts them over Karnak?

Originally posted by darthgoober
I think that hanging with guys on par with Namor EVERY time he goes up against them would count as consistently putting Cap there.

And what is this "plenty" that they do that puts them over Karnak?

Well, if you think that Cap's feats justify it, go argue it in the tier thread, I hardly see why you're bringing up Cap and Batman being 'iron man' level here...

Originally posted by Soljer
Well, if you think that Cap's feats justify it, go argue it in the tier thread, I hardly see why you're bringing up Cap and Batman being 'iron man' level here...
Because you're trying to act like Batman(who lacks superhuman durability) taking a superhuman punch is as creditable as Karnak(who HAS superhuman durability) doing the same.

And you never gave me Bat's feats that put him over Karnak.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Because you're trying to act like Batman(who lacks superhuman durability) taking a superhuman punch is as creditable as Karnak(who HAS superhuman durability) doing the same.

And you never gave me Bat's feats that put him over Karnak.

That's because Soljer doesn't provide scans unless he's incredibly devoted to a thread.

Which is.... never..

Originally posted by llagrok
That's because Soljer doesn't provide scans unless he's incredibly devoted to a thread.

Which is.... never..
Nah Soljer's cool. Truth be told, this may actually be the only time we've ended up on opposite sides of a debate(though there may be another time that I'm forgetting).

Originally posted by llagrok
That's because Soljer doesn't provide scans unless he's incredibly devoted to a thread.

Which is.... never..

Untrue.

My casual discussions about a thread are far more common than the times I'm truly devoted to a thread, but it isn't exactly 'never.'

Originally posted by Soljer
Untrue.

My casual discussions about a thread are far more common than the times I'm truly devoted to a thread, but it isn't exactly 'never.'

Normally your opinions don't conflict with simple reason and logic. This case isn't different because I'm disagree with you, I've disagreed with you plenty of times but you've never resorted to this kind of debating.

You automatically assume that Batman's speed is above Karnak's and that he is more durable. You have every right to make that claim, but when you make it without backing it up with ANYTHING you shouldn't bother to discuss at all.

Karnak hasn't looked to good against Black Panther and this was not once but twice.

Cap KO'ed Karnak via sneak attack, then again Cap has KO'ed a lot of people with his shield. So no disrespect to Karnac.

But Bats record against his street-verse looks more impressive that K's records against his. IMO Bats 6/10

Originally posted by llagrok
Normally your opinions don't conflict with simple reason and logic. This case isn't different because I'm disagree with you, I've disagreed with you plenty of times but you've never resorted to this kind of debating.

You automatically assume that Batman's speed is above Karnak's and that he is more durable. You have every right to make that claim, but when you make it without backing it up with ANYTHING you shouldn't bother to discuss at all.

I wasn't claiming Batman's win based off of durability - I was just disputing Karnak's 'insurmountable advantage' in that arena.

I was claiming that Batman wins because he has speed that's easily on par with the person who has trashed Karnak on multiple occasions, and has skill that surpasses either of them.

Originally posted by Soljer
I wasn't claiming Batman's win based off of durability - I was just disputing Karnak's 'insurmountable advantage' in that arena.

I was claiming that Batman wins because he has speed that's easily on par with the person who has trashed Karnak on multiple occasions, and has skill that surpasses either of them.
I never said that Karnak had an "insurmountable" advantage in durability(otherwise I wouldn't have said that Batman could win a few), just that he DOES have a fairly significant durability advantage. Karnak's lowest showings as far as durability goes is going down to BP, but those are offset by his taking shrugging off shots from guys like Gorgon and Blackbolt. And given that Karnak actually has superhuman durability, his durability showings are more creditable than Batmans(who's still basically human).

If you want to say that Batman wins because of *insert valid Batman feats here* that's fine with me. I haven't followed Batman closely in a while so it's entirely possible that I'm missing something. But your saying that Batman wins because BP did is ABC logic that's right along the same lines as quanchi saying that Glads should beat Darkseid for the majority just because Supes did multiple times now, or that Hulk can resist a blitz from Supes just because Doomsday did .

Originally posted by darthgoober
I never said that Karnak had an "insurmountable" advantage in durability(otherwise I wouldn't have said that Batman could win a few), just that he DOES have a fairly significant durability advantage. Karnak's lowest showings as far as durability goes is going down to BP, but those are offset by his taking shrugging off shots from guys like Gorgon and Blackbolt. And given that Karnak actually has superhuman durability, his durability showings are more creditable than Batmans(who's still basically human).

If you want to say that Batman wins because of *insert valid Batman feats here* that's fine with me. I haven't followed Batman closely in a while so it's entirely possible that I'm missing something. But your saying that Batman wins because BP did is ABC logic that's right along the same lines as quanchi saying that Glads should beat Darkseid for the majority just because Supes did multiple times now, or that Hulk can resist a blitz from Supes just because Doomsday did .

It isn't ABC logic. The ABC logic is a fallacy when we're looking at incomparable powers. Saying that Captain America can beat Superman because he can beat Batman, and Bruce can also beat Superman is ABC logic. Bruce beats superman due to kryptonite (and PIS, ).

ABC logic is saying that character A can beat character C because he can beat B who can beat C. It's a fallacy because it doesn't take into account the different abilities and stipulations that go into each victory.

I'm not saying that Batman can do it because Black Panther can do it. I'm saying that because Black Panther is too fast for Karnak, Batman also is.

It isn't ABC logic to say that the Flash is faster than Mongul because Superman is, and the Flash is faster than Superman.

Do you see the distinction I'm making? ABC logic in FIGHTS doesn't take into account possible strengths/weaknesses that are TAILORED to each combatant. ABC logic in...statistics (for lack of a better word - I'm a little brain dead right now - don't ask) is perfectly acceptable. Character A can lift more than B, who can lift more than C, is it not appropriate to say A can lift more than C?

Now, neither of us are disputing Batman's the more skilled of the two. Even if we think their speed is approximately comparable, it is apparent that very often, the more skilled opponent will win more often than the stronger one.

Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Grundy - who Batman put down bare handed. Unless you think Karnak is immune to Dim Mak. Unless you think Karnak is immune to the leopard blow or the vibrating palm. Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Aquaman, who Batman bested in hand to hand combat. Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Wonder Woman, who Batman has very badly hurt, unless you think Karnak is more durable than killer Croc (post hush virus, of course), unless you think Karnak is more durable than Gorilla Grodd, who Batman's downed in a single attack.

You think they have comparable speed? You admit that Batman's likely the more skilled? Unless you think most of the above are true of Karnak's durability, I don't understand why you're giving Karnak the win.

Originally posted by Soljer
It isn't ABC logic. The ABC logic is a fallacy when we're looking at incomparable powers. Saying that Captain America can beat Superman because he can beat Batman, and Bruce can also beat Superman is ABC logic. Bruce beats superman due to kryptonite (and PIS, ).

ABC logic is saying that character A can beat character C because he can beat B who can beat C. It's a fallacy because it doesn't take into account the different abilities and stipulations that go into each victory.

I'm not saying that Batman can do it because Black Panther can do it. I'm saying that because Black Panther is too fast for Karnak, Batman also is.

It isn't ABC logic to say that the Flash is faster than Mongul because Superman is, and the Flash is faster than Superman.

Do you see the distinction I'm making? ABC logic in FIGHTS doesn't take into account possible strengths/weaknesses that are TAILORED to each combatant. ABC logic in...statistics (for lack of a better word - I'm a little brain dead right now - don't ask) is perfectly acceptable. Character A can lift more than B, who can lift more than C, is it not appropriate to say A can lift more than C?

Now, neither of us are disputing Batman's the more skilled of the two. Even if we think their speed is approximately comparable, it is apparent that very often, the more skilled opponent will win more often than the stronger one.

Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Grundy - who Batman put down bare handed. Unless you think Karnak is immune to Dim Mak. Unless you think Karnak is immune to the leopard blow or the vibrating palm. Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Aquaman, who Batman bested in hand to hand combat. Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Wonder Woman, who Batman has very badly hurt, unless you think Karnak is more durable than killer Croc (post hush virus, of course), unless you think Karnak is more durable than Gorilla Grodd, who Batman's downed in a single attack.

You think they have comparable speed? You admit that Batman's likely the more skilled? Unless you think most of the above are true of Karnak's durability, I don't understand why you're giving Karnak the win.
If you really want to know why I'm giving Karnak the win I'll break it down for you...

1. Aside from his actual encounters with BP, Karnak average portrayal of speed/agility is right on par with Bats and BP.

2. Strength advantage goes to Karnak(by at least a small amount, and likely a decent amount).

3. Durability advantage goes to Karnak(typically takes class 50 and above punches fairly well, and has superhuman durability to justify his doing so).

4. Skill goes to Batman. I don't see there being a large difference, but I can see Bats as taking this one.

5. Damage output via skill goes to Karnak hands down. The guy routinely does things like collapse buildings and destroys solid stone outcroppings with a single shot, along with one shotting most of his opponents.


Thus ALL Batman really has on Karnak is skill, everything else is either comparable(such as speed) or in Karnak's favor(everything else). The way I see it the two might go back and forth for a while with Karnak taking plenty of shots from Batman, but all Karnak really needs is ONE opening to put Bats out of commission(and how many times has Bats managed to evade EVERY shot from a fellow MA?). Even if we assume that a major one shot KO opportunity doesn't easily present itself, we're talking about someone who can break Batman's arm or leg(depending on whether a punch or kick was thrown) with a block, so he doesn't even HAVE to take the offense himself. After a broken limb or two, Bats is going to have a hard time defending himself...


Now let's take a look at Karnak's low end showings against BP...
1. In each Karnak was facing off against the main protagonist of the story, while he himself wasn't the main antagonist.

2. In each encounter Karnak was fighting BP along with several other Inhumans, each of which should have EASILY been an even match with BP(and that's even at the very least, several could actually put down BP on their own IMO).

3. In each encounter, Karnak was put down with FAR less force than he's proven capable of withstanding.

Now when looked at closely, in my mind those three things spell PIS/jobbing encounters pure and simple.

Sorry if you feel I'm not addressing everything...but...PLENTY of shots?

Batman knows a dozen one-hit kills, and dozens more one-hit knock outs, and dozens MORE one-hit incapacitations.

Assuming he got the first hit, he could (literally) end this fight with a single finger. .

Originally posted by Soljer
Sorry if you feel I'm not addressing everything...but...PLENTY of shots?

Batman knows a dozen one-hit kills, and dozens more one-hit knock outs, and dozens MORE one-hit incapacitations.

Assuming he got the first hit, he could (literally) end this fight with a single finger. .
COULD, but how often does he do that kind of thing? I'm thinking of them fighting "in character" after all. Bats is much more likely to try to mix it up the same way he normally does, just like Thor is much more likely to get physical with the Hulk rather than win via BFR. And with comparable speed(and Karnak being a much smaller target than Bats is used to), Batman it's not as if Bats is going to have an easy time scoring hits against Karnak assuming that he DID go for a one hit KO.

Originally posted by darthgoober
COULD, but how often does he do that kind of thing? I'm thinking of them fighting "in character" after all. Bats is much more likely to try to mix it up the same way he normally does, just like Thor is much more likely to get physical with the Hulk rather than win via BFR. And with comparable speed(and Karnak being a smaller target), Batman it's not as if Bats is going to have an easy time scoring hits against Karnak assuming that he DID go for a one hit KO.

Not to try to bring other threads into this, but didn't the Surfer take the win over Cyborg Superman using a technique that he very rarely displays? .

Originally posted by Soljer
Not to try to bring other threads into this, but didn't the Surfer take the win over Cyborg Superman using a technique that he very rarely displays? .
I'm pretty sure that percentage wise, Surfer transmutes/disables hostile tech when it's encountered more than Bats OHKO's. I'm not denying that Bats will do it some(which is one of the reasons I attribute him a few wins), I just don't see him doing it MOST of the time.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm pretty sure that percentage wise, Surfer transmutes/disables hostile tech when it's encountered more than Bats OHKO's. I'm not denying that Bats will do it some(which is one of the reasons I attribute him a few wins), I just don't see him doing it MOST of the time.

I'm really trying to avoid bringing up that argument all over again, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree on the subject - he REALLY seems to prefer blasting at tech, rather than transmuting it. .

Regardless; I still maintain that Batman is faster and more skilled, and, thus, takes a good majority over Karnak. I don't have the resources or the emotional investment to sit here and give you scans, and I very much doubt you'll take me on my word that he's dodged Supergirl, Flash level rogues, has stolen Kyle's ring before Kyle could react, has moved fast enough to disappear while someone was STARING at him, only to appear behind said person and disarm said person. Has dodged and tagged Impulse (Kid Flash) on multiple occasions, and has dodged punches from Superman.

So...meh. .

Both Captain America and Batman use distraction,misdirection and diversion to confuse an opponent during a fight. Karnak's skills in "knocking" down buildings and telephone poles is an asset not unlike Batman's smoke bombs and sonic devices. Karnak is quite smart and would figure out Batman was a top tier MA. He could find the weak spot in Batman's arm and strike it when he goes to block (thus breaking it). Same could be done with his leg. I also think Karnak would outlast him in a long fight and being Inhuman could take stronger hits.

Karnak going down to Black Panther doesn't seem right. I like Black Panther but I feel Karnak was jobbing. Even with the losses to BP I would still say Karnak can take 6/10.

Originally posted by Soljer
I'm really trying to avoid bringing up that argument all over again, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree on the subject - he REALLY seems to prefer blasting at tech, rather than transmuting it. .
Oh I have no problem acknowledging that, in the thread I was thinking of him transmuting the fortress AND his leveling it AND his using k-nite, red sun, and solar energy absorption too, I wasn't JUST basing it of his transmutation abilities(that's just what the debate got hung up on).

Originally posted by Soljer
Regardless; I still maintain that Batman is faster and more skilled, and, thus, takes a good majority over Karnak. I don't have the resources or the emotional investment to sit here and give you scans, and I very much doubt you'll take me on my word that he's dodged Supergirl, Flash level rogues, has stolen Kyle's ring before Kyle could react, has moved fast enough to disappear while someone was STARING at him, only to appear behind said person and disarm said person. Has dodged and tagged Impulse (Kid Flash) on multiple occasions, and has dodged punches from Superman.

So...meh. .
Well THERE we will have to agree to disagree, because while I acknowledge that Bats has shown more skill, I still see them as being right on par speed wise. And I'm more than willing to accept your word on Supergirl and the rest, it's just that I see his jobber aura as being the source for it rather than his actual speed. As far as I'm concerned consistent BS is still BS. And before you say anything, I'm only calling BS on it because even if Bats had 10 times the speed of a regular human(which he doesn't), he STILL shouldn't be able to do half of what you just listed. It's all very similar to Captain America taking on guys like the Hulk and Namor, which is nothing more than BS in my opinion too.

So I see Karnak taking 6 or 7/10 for the following reasons...
Originally posted by darthgoober
1. Aside from his actual encounters with BP, Karnak average portrayal of speed/agility is right on par with Bats and BP.

2. Strength advantage goes to Karnak(by at least a small amount, and likely a decent amount).

3. Durability advantage goes to Karnak(typically takes class 50 and above punches fairly well, and has superhuman durability to justify his doing so).

4. Skill goes to Batman. I don't see there being a large difference, but I can see Bats as taking this one.

5. Damage output via skill goes to Karnak hands down. The guy routinely does things like collapse buildings and destroys solid stone outcroppings with a single shot, along with one shotting most of his opponents.

1. Except for everything that I just mentioned. Calling it BS doesn't change the fact that Batman does it. Every damned comic.

2. No real argument, but Batman pressing a few tons still isn't shabby for a 'peak human.'

3. Grundy, Supergirl, Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Darkseid, OMAC Drones, Clayface, Amazo, and General Eiling all disagree.

4. Skill goes to Batman in a landslide. .

Originally posted by Soljer
1. Except for everything that I just mentioned. Calling it BS doesn't change the fact that Batman does it. Every damned comic.

2. No real argument, but Batman pressing a few tons still isn't shabby for a 'peak human.'

3. Grundy, Supergirl, Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Darkseid, OMAC Drones, Clayface, Amazo, and General Eiling all disagree.

4. Skill goes to Batman in a landslide. .
Again, if even HALF of Batman's feats were actually valid, he should be an Iron Man level character AT LEAST, or everyone you've talked about him going up against needs to be taken down a notch or two. As is, he's a street leveler with an insane jobber aura, just like Cap. I mean, would you honestly give him the majority in a strait up fight with half the people you've talked about him hurting/dodging?

And truth be told, I don't know why you're considering Bats to be FAR ahead of Karnak in skill anyway.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again, if even HALF of Batman's feats were actually valid, he should be an Iron Man level character AT LEAST, or everyone you've talked about him going up against needs to be taken down a notch or two. As is, he's a street leveler with an insane jobber aura, just like Cap. I mean, would you honestly give him the majority in a strait up fight with half the people you've talked about him hurting/dodging?

And truth be told, I don't know why you're considering Bats to be FAR ahead of Karnak in skill anyway.

Would I give him a majority? Of course not.

Would I say that he could take a couple punches from those characters? Would I say that he could deal some damage to those characters?

It'd be idiotic not to - he's done it repeatedly. .

You can't sit there and pick and choose, goob.

"I like Karnak being fast, so I'll pick this feat, but discount where he gets owned by a street leveller."

"I don't, however, want Batman to be fast, so I'll go ahead and discount the ones where he shows off his speed, and only pay attention to the ones where he doesn't."

You're picking the very 'cream of the crop' for karnak, while stating outright "I am invalidating half of Batman's feats.'

It just doesn't work that way. .

Originally posted by Soljer
Would I give him a majority? Of course not.

Would I say that he could take a couple punches from those characters? Would I say that he could deal some damage to those characters?

It'd be idiotic not to - he's done it repeatedly. .

You can't sit there and pick and choose, goob.

"I like Karnak being fast, so I'll pick this feat, but discount where he gets owned by a street leveller."

"I don't, however, want Batman to be fast, so I'll go ahead and discount the ones where he shows off his speed, and only pay attention to the ones where he doesn't."

You're picking the very 'cream of the crop' for karnak, while stating outright "I am invalidating half of Batman's feats.'

It just doesn't work that way. .
Hey I'm all for believing in consistency, but I also feel that it should be backed by common sense and logic to at least SOME degree. NO actual human should be able to take a full on punch from a class 100 character, it's just that simple. NO actual human should be able to tag Flash or dodge Supergirl if they're really trying.

And I'm not just going by Karnak's high end, I'm going for his average. He has TWO low showings, and probably a dozen good showings that far exceed it. On the other hand, yes Batman does do the types of feats you listed fairly consistently, but he also gets hurt by punches from of street level people with no real super strength, which also conflicts with his dodging the people you listed(who are far faster than the street levelers he gets hit by).

But we don't NEED common sense or logic....if a fictional character does a fictional feat repeatedly, they should be considered capable of that fictional feat, no?

Their status AS a fictional character kind of throws the whole 'actual human' thing out the window.

And, besides, Bruce's been described as 'more than human' by many of his peers, .

Originally posted by Soljer
But we don't NEED common sense or logic....if a fictional character does a fictional feat repeatedly, they should be considered capable of that fictional feat, no?

Their status AS a fictional character kind of throws the whole 'actual human' thing out the window.

And, besides, Bruce's been described as 'more than human' by many of his peers, .
Let me ask you this, would you justify classic Quicksilver(who's FAR faster than Batman) dodging the likes of the Flash or Supergirl if they're really TRYING to hit him?

We portray Batman as a much lesser opponent on the forums compared to how he's portrayed in the comics.

Period.

Originally posted by batdude123
We portray Batman as a much lesser opponent on the forums compared to how he's portrayed in the comics.

Period.
That's because we don't take the PIS that surrounds him seriously, we do the same thing for the Hulk(who'd give Supes a run for his money in a comic) .

Originally posted by batdude123
We portray Batman as a much lesser opponent on the forums compared to how he's portrayed in the comics.

Period.

And in which medium do you think he is represented appropriately?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Let me ask you this, would you justify classic Quicksilver(who's FAR faster than Batman) dodging the likes of the Flash or Supergirl if they're really TRYING to hit him?

Nope - he doesn't have a direct comparison to Supergirl or the Flash.

All we have to go on is what we can guess.

However, Batman HAS dodged the Flash. He HAS dodged a bloodlusted Superman, Supergirl, and Darkseid.

We don't need to guess - we know.

Originally posted by Soljer
Nope - he doesn't have a direct comparison to Supergirl or the Flash.

All we have to go on is what we can guess.

However, Batman HAS dodged the Flash. He HAS dodged a bloodlusted Superman, Supergirl, and Darkseid.

We don't need to guess - we know.
But we do KNOW for a fact that he's faster and has better reflexes than Bruce, which means that if Bruce can then so can Pietro. After all, Batman's never put down Karnak, but you're basing your call in this fight off of him being comparable to BP.

Originally posted by Soljer


However, Batman HAS dodged the Flash. He HAS dodged a bloodlusted Superman, Supergirl, and Darkseid.


That doesn't mean he has superspeed...that's more just PIS and his 'bataura'.

Do you think they would ever have batman catch a bullet...No, because it would be impossible for him to.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But we do KNOW for a fact that he's faster and has better reflexes than Bruce, which means that if Bruce can then so can Pietro. After all, Batman's never put down Karnak, but you're basing your call in this fight off of him being comparable to BP.

No, we don't know that. They're in different universes.

We can assume that, sure. But Batman dodging C+ rogues seems to imply differently. 313.

Originally posted by masterbruce
That doesn't mean he has superspeed...that's more just PIS and his 'bataura'.

Do you think they would ever have batman catch a bullet...No, because it would be impossible for him to.

He's blocked them with Batarangs....seems like that would be a step or two harder than catching them.

Originally posted by Soljer
No, we don't know that. They're in different universes.

We can assume that, sure. But Batman dodging C+ rogues seems to imply differently. 313.
Has he ever broken the sound barrier via his own personal movements? If not, then we know that Quicksilver's faster. After all, he's faster than BP who for some reason you see comparable to Batman DESPITE the fact that they're in different universes.

Originally posted by darthgoober
That's because we don't take the PIS that surrounds him seriously . We do the same thing for the Hulk.

Lame excuses to try and keep him down.

Stuff he does 80% of the times in his books are thrown out the window here. When it gets that excessive, it doesn't become PIS anymore...

He has the title "human being" tacked on to his character, so essentially people hamper his showings around here. Yet, people really don't seem to understand that he's way more than a human could ever possibly be.

Funny how we all give Karate Kid the benefit of the doubt around here... *tsk, tsk, tsk*

You can pursue this matter further if you like, but the bottom line is that KMC neuters him immensely.

Originally posted by Soljer
And in which medium do you think he is represented appropriately?

The comics. But what the hell do I know? I'll just go ahead and take the word of some geeks sitting at their computers over the word of the writers.

Originally posted by batdude123
Lame excuses to try and keep him down.

Stuff he does 80% of the times in his books are thrown out the window here. When it gets that excessive, it doesn't become PIS anymore...

He has the title "human being" tacked on to his character, so essentially people hamper his showings around here. Yet, people really don't seem to understand that he's way more than a human could ever possibly be.

Funny how we all give Karate Kid the benefit of the doubt around here... *tsk, tsk, tsk*

You can pursue this matter further if you like, but the bottom line is that KMC neuters him immensely.
Hey I'm one of the few who believe KK's hype to be a load of crap too, but at least he has the justification of coming from a thousand years in the future and knows alien martial arts.

Originally posted by batdude123
The comics. But what the hell do I know? I'll just go ahead and take the word of some geeks sitting at their computers over the word of the writers.
Watch it, you're coming dangerously close to sounding like the Hulk fanboys who ALSO prefer to go by purely what's actually happened in comics .

Originally posted by Soljer
He's blocked them with Batarangs....seems like that would be a step or two harder than catching them.

actually thats not really a speed feat as much as an aim feat

Batman throws batarangs at the precise trajectory of where the gun is aimed

Originally posted by darthgoober
Watch it, you're coming dangerously close to sounding like the Hulk fanboys who ALSO prefer to go by purely what's actually happened in comics .

That was a joke.