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This is an issue which striked me as something interesting to post.


Im sure many of you are familiar with the overcrowding of prisons that is happening, particularly so in te United States as well as Britain.

Now, overcrowding, as you might imagine would bring many difficulties to the prisoners. A cells which are intended to have one person in it, are now accommodating up to 3 people.

Maximum seurity prisons, I remember reading not so long ago have their inmates locked alone in cells for up to 23 hours a day, with no conversation, no reading material, no choice of a movement, no work and no education available.

This all contributes the the mental illness which occurs in prisons, as well as high suicide rate.

Perhaps the question is ''do we care''. I think we SHOULD care, but here are some questions you could think about.

Is prisoner still considered a human being? If so, why are they denied many basic human rights.

What is the purpose of prison? If the prison is to teach the prisoners a lesson or to reform, then overcrowding and institutional racism do not contribute to any kind of education nor reform for these people.

If it is to punish, then you must agree that the kind of mental torture imposed on these people is beyond sinister.

Baring in mind that prisons are full of people whos offences range is vast - from extremely serious, to a petty drug dealing.

Thoughts?

Yeah, too many people are commiting crimes. Sucks for them.

You're right. Prisons being new was something I should have mentioned, as I actually do believe is rather important.

The Prison System is, a you mentioned very new concept, but for many it is still a question of what the actual purpose of the prison is? What is it trying to achieve?

Its interesting that the quater of world's prison population is imprisoned in America alone, and that a black population of 12-14% in the whole country, make a 52% of the prison population.

What is the prison system like in Denmark? Do you guys have overcrowding problems?

Yeah, I say bring back the beatings and whippings. Here in the US people would say that it was against the constitution because its "cruel and unusual". Question is how can that be when that is what was used when that phrase was written.

Personally, I think we should put them to work. Work them hard from sunup to sundown. Then all they'd care about is their little 3 by six space called a bunk. Who says America needs the illegal immigrants? We've got a huge untapped workforce wasting time lifting weights and playing basketball when they should be paying society for what they took.

Originally posted by docb77
Personally, I think we should put them to work. Work them hard from sunup to sundown. Then all they'd care about is their little 3 by six space called a bunk. Who says America needs the illegal immigrants? We've got a huge untapped workforce wasting time lifting weights and playing basketball when they should be paying society for what they took.

This has been done, as well. Prisoners were made to work - but this put a huge problem on people who waren't prisoners.

When prisoners worked and produced something, its a very cheap labour, which made others out of work, as they demanded a good pay.

Privatisation of prisons is however another argument that we could discuss.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Its interesting that the quater of world's prison population is imprisoned in America alone, and that a black population of 12-14% in the whole country, make a 52% of the prison population.




I wonder why that is?

Institutional racism, prejudice and bigotry?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Institutional racism, prejudice and bigotry?


Maybe, also alot more crime perhaps as a percentage of black population as well.

Originally posted by Soleran
Maybe, also alot more crime perhaps as a percentage of black population as well.

What do you mean?

Just that maybe there are more crimes as a percentage of the black population then not.

Why would you feel its a biggoted, racist and prejudice system? It may very well be but what would make you draw that conclussion aside from the original numbers you posted?

How can 12-15% of your population fill 52% of your prison system? There has to be something wrong there.

Black person is 6 times more likely to get arrested than white person...

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
This has been done, as well. Prisoners were made to work - but this put a huge problem on people who waren't prisoners.

When prisoners worked and produced something, its a very cheap labour, which made others out of work, as they demanded a good pay.

Privatisation of prisons is however another argument that we could discuss.

Yes, but it was done in a time when most of America wasn't educated. People keep saying there's all these jobs that Americans won't do, that that's why we should let illegal imigrants stay here, that they do these jobs for less money. Well, we could save even more money by using the prison inmates instead. Only people who it seems it would hurt are people that shouldn't be here anyway.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
How can 12-15% of your population fill 52% of your prison system? There has to be something wrong there.

Black person is 6 times more likely to get arrested than white person...

First off, the african american population is closer to 30 percent. Still a disparity, but not as large as you make it seem.

As far as likelyhood of arrest goes - there are several possible reasons. One is the one you imply, a biased judicial system. Another is that more crime is commited by blacks. Even if that is the reason there's something wrong, but the solution would be different.

lil bitchiness:How can 12-15% of your population fill 52% of your prison system? There has to be something wrong there.

Black person is 6 times more likely to get arrested than white person...




Or 6 times more likely to commit the crime.


Take San Jose, where I used to live.

40% hispanic
30% black
15-20% white
10-15% asian/indian/other


It's expected with those kind of numbers that more black or hispanic individuals would be arrested/sent to prison, no?

What about other culturally diverse areas, like L.A., New York, Chicago, Atlanta, etc......


I'm not even trying to deny the racial profiling of African Americans by police and government officials, I know it happens, and it's totally wrong.

But I think its a complicated issue too, not just..... black and white.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
How can 12-15% of your population fill 52% of your prison system? There has to be something wrong there.

Black person is 6 times more likely to get arrested than white person...

Have you been to a ghetto in the USA? Have you seen section 8 housing and seen or heard what happens there? Now I am not an expert but I can tell you I have. Drugs dealt on the street in daylight, prostitutes, guns being shot..................

Anyway blame the institiion for part of it hey whatever but people that go to jail 90% of the time commit the crime, so ask the criminals why before we blame the system..........the source.

Lil Bitchiness>"What is the prison system like in Denmark? Do you guys have overcrowding problems?"
Yep. There are being built new prisons. I don't think the Danish Prison system is as harsh as, say, the American, with the exception of isolation - which is being debated as a violation of human rights.

I think, that with the 17th century came the idea of PERSONAL LIBERTIES, the revolutions in France and the overseas colonies saw the end of feudalism, and the beginning of LIBERAL thinking. At the center was the indiviaul and its inviolable rights. Liberty/freedom being one of them. Slavery was abolished so was serfdom.
So IMPRISONMENT was probably invented as a HARSH punishment, namely taking away from an indiviual its freedom.

Since the West is in social/economic crisis the rise in crime in its wake should surprise no one.

In our day and age there is still racism. In western countries the percentage of immigrant/coloured people who're poor is still high compared to the percentage of said groups in many countries. Poverty is linked to crime.
As you say, US blacks are more likely to be suspected of crime and arrested. The same goes here in DK for our Arab immigrants, who just has a harder time getting ajob due to their last names (studies have proven this to be a fact).

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
How can 12-15% of your population fill 52% of your prison system? There has to be something wrong there.

Black person is 6 times more likely to get arrested than white person...

It has a good deal to do with the upbringing and the situation as well. A large portion of blacks live in the inner city areas which are low income and very dangerous, and this gets a lot of them into lifestyles they wouldn't have if they were born into middle class neighborhoods in some nice suburban area. And when it comes to sentencing, you might have a white kid picked up for drunk driving who comes to court with family, money, and a nice suit and gets a slap on the wrist, while a black person doing the same crime will come with an inner city disposition and no family support, and generally create a different image before the judge. And even when the judge is also black, this does not favor the accused, since they are assumed to be hoodlums up to no good. It's an unfair generalization, but that's how it -usually- goes down. At least, where I've lived.

Of course, you've got to keep in mind that a large portion of men in the penal system also suffer from mental diseases or even having an extra Y chromosone in their makeup which makes them far more violent.

Originally posted by Soleran
Have you been to a ghetto in the USA? Have you seen section 8 housing and seen or heard what happens there? Now I am not an expert but I can tell you I have. Drugs dealt on the street in daylight, prostitutes, guns being shot..................

Anyway blame the institiion for part of it hey whatever but people that go to jail 90% of the time commit the crime, so ask the criminals why before we blame the system..........the source. I agree

Originally posted by Soleran
Have you been to a ghetto in the USA? Have you seen section 8 housing and seen or heard what happens there? Now I am not an expert but I can tell you I have. Drugs dealt on the street in daylight, prostitutes, guns being shot..................

Anyway blame the institiion for part of it hey whatever but people that go to jail 90% of the time commit the crime, so ask the criminals why before we blame the system..........the source.

I agree.

I can speak from example, me and my family have lived off of welfare and in Section 8 housing for about 2 years. It was horrible. We had to constantly watch our back as well as lock every door you own. Cars as well as your house.

Our neighbors were druggies, dope addicts, and pot smokers. There were practically no white people living there. I would say there about 40% blacks, 45% percent Latino, and about 15% was made out of other minority races. Indian, Filipino(My race), Chinese, and Moroccan. Some of our neighbors were very friendly. Some would constantly ignore us. Out of the 2 years we lived there, My car was broken into by a black tenant. Our house was broken into via the back window of my house was completely removed and we lost about 600 dollars in cash and other valuables to a black tenant. Those were my neighbors. Sure they got caught and went to prison but the majority of people who do commit crimes in the US are blacks IMHO.

We moved away from that place about 3 years ago and are now living in Northern Nevada without financial aid from the government. It's great living here with my 3 kids and being able yo bear arms to protect my family if need be. Those break ins happened when we were out of town. If we were home at the time, things could have certainly got violent real fast.

The only problem I have with jail, is the punishment that is not received by The Jail institution itself. But the punishments received by the other Jail mates. That to me is what makes Jail such an awful and scary place.

When People **** up, they go to jail. It is their decision, no one else's. If they aren't smart enough to realize the penalties and the consequences that Jail has to offer. Than by all means, they deserve to go with god as their witness.

More people going to jail? More people to learn from.

Unfortunately there are many false imprisonments....good thing we can use DNA now.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
This is an issue which striked me as something interesting to post.


Im sure many of you are familiar with the overcrowding of prisons that is happening, particularly so in te United States as well as Britain.

Now, overcrowding, as you might imagine would bring many difficulties to the prisoners. A cells which are intended to have one person in it, are now accommodating up to 3 people.

Maximum seurity prisons, I remember reading not so long ago have their inmates locked alone in cells for up to 23 hours a day, with no conversation, no reading material, no choice of a movement, no work and no education available.

This all contributes the the mental illness which occurs in prisons, as well as high suicide rate.

Perhaps the question is ''do we care''. I think we SHOULD care, but here are some questions you could think about.

Is prisoner still considered a human being? If so, why are they denied many basic human rights.

What is the purpose of prison? If the prison is to teach the prisoners a lesson or to reform, then overcrowding and institutional racism do not contribute to any kind of education nor reform for these people.

If it is to punish, then you must agree that the kind of mental torture imposed on these people is beyond sinister.

Baring in mind that prisons are full of people whos offences range is vast - from extremely serious, to a petty drug dealing.

Thoughts?

I've been to prison and I can tell you, that a lot of that is true. It's not uncommon to find a friend of your's hanging from the ceiling rafters by electrical cord.

Prisons are intended to "recuperate and help" but all they usually do is postpone the problem.

From what I can remember of my old legal studies a prison has three uses - retribution - this is what it is most seen at by the public, though in reality it is the second most important. So prison is punishment.

Recuperation - Prison reeducates a person, brings them into line, whatever, so they don't commit crime again. This is the main purpose.

Protection - Protects the community from an individual until such a time as they are no longer a threat. Also protects certain individuals from an angered community.

Now the problem is prison does a crappy job at most of those. There is no real stratification - you can have a variety of people for crimes ranging from the very minor to the very severe. Does a stupid teenager who does a bit a graffiti deserve to be in with guys at the other end of the scale? Yes some would say. The problem is that prison breeds criminal behaviour. A person who is not inherently bad and in for a minor offence faces tough going surrounded by far more dangerous criminals, and all sorts of abuse. Still, you do the crime you do the time.

But, this leads to them having a far harder time getting back to normality outside. Prison changes people. Ah, you say, it's meant to. The problem is that it doesn't always do it the way it is meant to.

Recidivism rates (re-offending) in the US, Australia and the UK are terribly high for numerous reasons. First prison can create the lifelong convict - they can't survive outside, thus they commit crime to get back in. Second prejudice against former inmates means they have a harder time outside and are more likely to re-offend. Third prison might have just failed to address what they needed to be correctly re-educated. There are a couple more.

As such there is a cycle of people who will never really be better in the criminal system, a cycle of people who experience things in prison far harsher then their crime calls for, there are the occasional innocent people and so on.

Now prisons are indubitably required for the protection and punishment aspects, but increasingly they are falling down in the most important - the reeducation. There is little purpose to the whole process if a person is just as likely, or more likely, to commit a crime when released due to fundamental failures of the system. Thus that would bring as to what needs to be done to correct this. The problem there is that no body really knows, but it is a problem they are working on.

What was that tv-series called that ran a couple of years back? "Oz"?

I was under the impression that Prisons are mostly there to protect society from harm. And that the reasons you stated are, or should be, secondary.


Other than that I agree, there is no reason why anyone should be forced to live in such inhumane conditions, especially when you are in Governmental custody.

Is there anyone logged on to KMC who's in jail right now and cares to comment? What's going on in your cell? Are you having trouble typing while looking over your shoulder? Is Bubba typing your reply? Are you and Bubba both sharing your reply together?

That's a sad thing, really. Prison systems here in the states are pretty heavy with rape and gangrape, along with a form of sexual servitude, and the guards don't particularly care. This leads to a rapid increase of AIDS and Hepatitis C among other things, not to mention it's just a disgusting element of human nature- to dominate others that way and abuse them. They say you can judge a society by the condition of its prisoners... Are we really doing people a favor by herding them all into some kind of pen? Like I pointed out before, a lot of people behind bars are either victims of abuse and poor upbringing, or born with that extra Y chromosone which makes them more violent. Is locking them up so they can hurt each other and diverting funds to keep them alive really the answer? What ever happened to an eye for an eye? That certainly would be a stronger deterent. Every day on the news you hear someone who slipped through the legal system or got out of prison in a short amount of time and sexually assaults and murders more people. If the justice system had decided against petty short term lockup and castrated the ****er in the first place or killed him, there wouldn't be this problem. For certain level crimes, the idea of keeping someone locked up but alive is foolish.

Well I don't know where to reply first, but I'll start with a general reply.

Denial of any kind of institutional racism is simply absurd. African-American is SIX times more likely to be arrested than a white person. One black man in nine today is under riminal oversight.

It is wrong and misinformed to think that skin colour and crime are connected in any way.

Drug dealing does happen a lot in Ghettos, true, I do not deny this. African Americans are in worst situation than white people. One in three blac people live below poverty line in America, as opposed to One in ten white people, so they are more likely to engage in crime.

It is the fact that a Prison System will treat a white person more leniency than a black person when it comes to drugs, murder or rape. In fact any kind of crime.

Second, black population IS 12-14%, and nowhere near 30%. People, get your countries statistics checked.

Come on, it is ridiculous to even suggest that there is no such thing as institutional racism within American Justice system.

...

As for prisons...the prison IS the punishment. Every other violation of human rights within the prison is wrong, I would argue.

The very sense of taking someone's liberty away is the punishment. The insane terrible conditions of the prison, the mental and physical 'torture' are afterall inhumane things which should not be allowed.

I think most of us, unless we've been in prison, would have hard time comprehending the idea of having our very basic freedom of liberty taken away, and on top of that, being abused, mentally and physically every single day, would you not agree?

I don't doubt that racism is a big problem in the legal system of the USA, but I also think that there are actually more Black males committing crimes than White males.

Not because they are Black but because the environment for many Blacks in the USA today is much worse than for most whites. I think if more whites had to live under the exact same conditions the crime rate of white males would increase rapidly....

Has anyone discussed the racial implications of actually being a prisoner? In lament's terms, I'm talking about the politics of what goes on each and every day for a prisoner. What races would thrive there? In even more lament's terms, since stats on here are saying the percentage of prison population by race, what race would you rather be while behind bars 24/7 ?

p.s. the guy who said 30% was talking about San Jose, not the US as a whole. The town I work in is 60% black, so there are very many extremes in different parts of the country. You really have to live here to understand many things that aren't found on statistical websites.

There are lies, damn lies and stastistics....................information to be had is information to be controlled.

Now I am only going to post some of these stastistics from places I have recently lived so

Maryland-28 % black
Washington DC-60% black
Virginia-20 % black
Missouri-11% black

I'm sure if we also took a closer look at the areas of high crime we might get a better picture of what this really means as opposed to the USA of 13% black. Really your attempting to paint the broadest demographic picture possible and the picture comes up looking like shit.

However I am certainly not suggesting there isn't some sort of racism, what I am suggesteing is there is significantly less then you imply based off your face figures.

On the topic of prisons though and what inmates have to endure I think a problem aside from what the instition does inmates create their own enviroment there which is probably as hard as the instition itself.

Crime sucks you break the law you do the time, for some people prison is better the life on the streets and thats really gotta suck.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What is the purpose of prison? If the prison is to teach the prisoners a lesson or to reform, then overcrowding and institutional racism do not contribute to any kind of education nor reform for these people.

If it is to punish, then you must agree that the kind of mental torture imposed on these people is beyond sinister.

Baring in mind that prisons are full of people whos offences range is vast - from extremely serious, to a petty drug dealing.

Thoughts?

The purpose of prison is simple....to lock up convicted criminals and keep them from harming productive members of society and their families. If an individual is trial and found to be a dangerous person for society he/she either goes to jail or goes to mental institution. Prison isn't always the primary solution.

There is no such thing as petty drug dealing. Any individual selling drugs to a child is nowhere near petty. He/She is a criminal and a harm to society. You may go on to philosophy that drugs aren't dangerous. But trying to get kids to get into the addiction is wrong, criminal, and evil. You break the law you do the time.

I don't care about them, by majority. I do feel bad for the non-violent offenders but they make up the minority of the prison population. Any man or woman in prison for causing violence towards another can just die for all I care. They obviously refuse to abide by the rules of a civilized society but still wanted to remain in that society to reap the advantages. Nothing in this life is free. You want to live in our society..you follow the rules.



basic human rights are food and water. They recieve both. they should thank their lucky stars for anything additional they are given.



people who argue that prisons are for reform are dillusional. Any education or councilling an inmate recieves is just as available for them without being locked behind bars. The only purpose for a prison is to separate these individuals from the society they refused to obey the laws of.



you're right. They should save us tax payers the burden of torturing them and just put them down. If a dog shows violence tendencies.....bites just one person....it is put to sleep as it is deemed unredeemable. There is no way to say that the same animal won't harm someone else in the future as it has already showed it has the capacity to do so. Humans who commit violence towards others are worse than animals. They actually know/understand the affects and consequences of their actions before hand yet choose to do them anyway.


As for your statistics on race/population ratio in the prison system in the U.S........

While I agree that a percentage of the black prison population is due to an unjust system.....there are many more factors to consider. Most of them culturally. In a very large subculture of the black population it is actually considered "cool" and "respectable" to commit crimes and go to prison. It is something to brag about, not be shameful of. Just listen to any random rap album. It is also not a coincidence that a greater number of black children are raised soly by their mother, no father in the picture. How does a boy grow up to be a respectable man if there's not a grown and respectable man in his life to mentor, guide or live up to?

Originally posted by botankus
Has anyone discussed the racial implications of actually being a prisoner? In lament's terms, I'm talking about the politics of what goes on each and every day for a prisoner. What races would thrive there? In even more lament's terms, since stats on here are saying the percentage of prison population by race, what race would you rather be while behind bars 24/7 ?

p.s. the guy who said 30% was talking about San Jose, not the US as a whole. The town I work in is 60% black, so there are very many extremes in different parts of the country. You really have to live here to understand many things that aren't found on statistical websites.

Well for one, I do not get my statistics from ''statistic websites'' but from books.

I'll reference them all, in case you would all like to go have a read.

Tonry Malign Neglect: Race Crime & Punishment in America, Oxford Univ. Press, 1995

J. Reiman The Rich get Richer and the Poor get Prison, 2nd. Edition, Wiley, 1984

D. Garland 2001 Mass Imprisonment: social causes and consequences, Sage.

Useem, B. et al 2003 Popular Support for the Prison Build-up. Punishment & Society, Vol. 5 No. 1 Jan. 2003.

Also ''Oxford Handbook of Criminology'', which I don't have on me, so i can't do a full reference.

The journal you can upload on the web somewhere for free, im sure, but the books I doubt.


Originally posted by Soleran
There are lies, damn lies and stastistics....................information to be had is information to be controlled.

Now I am only going to post some of these stastistics from places I have recently lived so

Maryland-28 % black
Washington DC-60% black
Virginia-20 % black
Missouri-11% black

I'm sure if we also took a closer look at the areas of high crime we might get a better picture of what this really means as opposed to the USA of 13% black. Really your attempting to paint the broadest demographic picture possible and the picture comes up looking like shit.

However I am certainly not suggesting there isn't some sort of racism, what I am suggesteing is there is significantly less then you imply based off your face figures.

On the topic of prisons though and what inmates have to endure I think a problem aside from what the instition does inmates create their own enviroment there which is probably as hard as the instition itself.

Crime sucks you break the law you do the time, for some people prison is better the life on the streets and thats really gotta suck.

Significantly less racism? And how would you know, privilege boy? Are you black? Have you ever been to prison and on the street, to know where black convict perfer to be?


My statistics have more face falue since they are collected by individuals who are researching a certain topic - you might be suprised, but a majority of academic, when they are researching something, they are research it, not to PROVE whatever THEY feel like at that point in tim, but to understand and look for the answer, surprisingly.

Not that anyone listens to academics anyway...

There is one thing that never seas to anger me, and upset me like a statement from a white person about the lack or over exaggeration of racism towards black people.

Okay, that's nice, but what about the rest of my points?

Originally posted by Evil Dead
you're right. They should save us tax payers the burden of torturing them and just put them down.
Ha. Ignorance.

Giving someone a death penalty costs more money than keeping him/her in prison. This is a least known fact by the general public.

Wanna check it out for yourself. Go to www.deathpenaltyinfo.org for all your questions about costs answered.


You ae by far the most typically dellusional of us all - do you know where your tax money goes? It goes in building arms and military - not to hospitals, or schools, or prisons, or youth centres or libraries or anything of the sorts.

If your money paid for the prison in the extent you are trying to argue we wouldnt be having this conversation about the state of prison.

Away from the specifics of prison, I would like to say that there is a vast difference between statistics and real life.

I say I'm from a rural Southern town...immediately people who are used to statistics and not from here assume it's loaded with bible-beating rednecks salivating at a chance to form a lynch mob. Well, it does have a few rednecks, but the majority of the people in this town are black and very religious. So I guess they could be considered Bible beating, but they are not rednecks, have been nothing but friendly to me in the five years I have known everyone here, and probably wouldn't take too kindly to their town being stereotyped just because of its geographical location.

I would take a local man with an IQ of 40's generalization of how things work around here over the most intellectual of scholars who had never come within 1000 miles of this place - any day of the week.

Originally posted by botankus
Okay, that's nice, but what about the rest of my points?

Ok, lets adress the rest of your post about what skin colour i would want to have in prison.

As for racial implications in prison, people do not mix, at least not in the prison they are allowed to eat in the halls, as opposed in their rooms. Black people are on one side, white people on the other usually accompanied by Hispanic, Chinese or Asians, although this is not a rule.

I would perfer not to be in prison at all, and if Im in there, I don't see why I would want to be either colour or nationality.

Prison you see on the movies, and the prison that it is in crisis, are somewhat different. I am not sure what you are trying to ask me.

Giving someone a death penalty costs more money than keeping him/her in prison. This is a least known fact by the general public.

Another twisted little bit of information but I'll clear up what it means.

And the reason it costs so much more is because of the amount of man hours and resources used to verify the person is guilty as charged, the actual death penalty is alot less expesive then a year in prison.


Eating at other ends of the hall is a self imposed piece not done by the prison itself. Inamtes create more of their enviroment in there then they would like you to believe.

Originally posted by botankus
Away from the specifics of prison, I would like to say that there is a vast difference between statistics and real life.

I say I'm from a rural Southern town...immediately people who are used to statistics and not from here assume it's loaded with bible-beating rednecks salivating at a chance to form a lynch mob. Well, it does have a few rednecks, but the majority of the people in this town are black and very religious. So I guess they could be considered Bible beating, but they are not rednecks, have been nothing but friendly to me in the five years I have known everyone here, and probably wouldn't take too kindly to their town being stereotyped just because of its geographical location.

I would take a local man with an IQ of 40's generalization of how things work around here over the most intellectual of scholars who had never come within 1000 miles of this place - any day of the week.

What you are describing is generalisation, not ''statistics''. Statistics collected in prisons are done so based on the registration of the people.

Go to a federal prison website - you can search for people using their name surname, ''race'' and age.

Every prisoner HAS these infos - it isn't a ''make up statistics'' time, its counting people within the prison system which are black/white/hispanic/asian...etc

You are right, Lil B, but I'm just trying to state an example without starting another thread. Stereotyping because of geographical location happens alot in this forum, and I didn't know where else to say it. If everyone would like I'll copy and paste my post every time someone wants to make a comment about small southern towns and what they think of them. On average I'll be posting it about 200 times per day, I figure.

I know it's off-topic, so I'm done. wavey

Playing the race card will backfire on this issue. If by pointing to the system saying "you guys are discriminatory and racist" you're really losing touch with reality. Here is why...

Last year the Los Angeles County Prisons experience one the largest prison riots in history. The cause? It is still debate. However, during the interviews by the media a Hispanic prisoner was asked about why were the riots happening? his response. "We don't like Those Black (beep) near our cells." When a black prisoner was the same question his response was similar. But instead of saying the word "black" he used the word "mexican".

Fact is this....these people hate each other. They're a threat to any member of society. The Racism doesn't just come from the system. It also comes from these individuals. We (at least I don't) don't want people like these indivuals walking down our neighborhoods, schools, and work places. They belong in prison. A place where they can't harm any of us.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Significantly less racism? And how would you know, privilege boy? Are you black? Have you ever been to prison and on the street, to know where black convict perfer to be?

My statistics have more face falue since they are collected by individuals who are researching a certain topic - you might be suprised, but a majority of academic, when they are researching something, they are research it, not to PROVE whatever THEY feel like at that point in tim, but to understand and look for the answer, surprisingly.

Not that anyone listens to academics anyway...

There is one thing that never seas to anger me, and upset me like a statement from a white person about the lack or over exaggeration of racism towards black people.

I'm sorry was there ever any mention of my ethnicity, yet you assume alot don't you, thats very scholarly I suppose. Since you appear to know so much when was the last time you read a good book while incarcertated in the american penal system? Let me ask you have you ever been to a ghetto in the USA and say been around them daily, for I don't know a period of 6 months?

Your statistics have about as much value as mine do, at that is simply how they are interpreted and presented. Ever seen Good Will Hunting, because you are sounding alot like Will here.

Something that never ceases to amaze me is how so many people from so many countries can now how to fix so many problems in the USA without actually spending as much time here researching as they are reading a book, watching the news etc etc. Stand on the soap box WAY over there and shout again why we have so many issues.

Reality is there is higher crimes in impovershed areas and more blacks populate those areas.....................now quickly find more statistics to justify that!

So then the question is: why is a black neighborhood a ghetto and a white neighborhood a gated community? Are whites naturally superior and more capable of success within the capitalist system or did you perhaps get a bit of an unfair advantage?

Originally posted by daTROOF
So then the question is: why is a black neighborhood a ghetto and a white neighborhood a gated community? Are whites naturally superior and more capable of success within the capitalist system or did you perhaps get a bit of an unfair advantage?
This post made a lot of sense until the word "you" appeared. Now it's no longer an objective post.

Semantics. What does it really matter?

Originally posted by daTROOF
Semantics. What does it really matter?

Well without the "you" you would have made a good point ...with the "you" you suddenly became a racist....

I'm not a racist; I don't even believe in race. But that's another discussion.

Originally posted by daTROOF
I'm not a racist; I don't even believe in race. But that's another discussion.

Well then why say "did you perhaps get a bit of an unfair advantage?"?

You seem to believe in some race....racist.

No cause it doesn't matter if I believe in race or not; the people in charge do and that can lead to unequality between the supposed "races."

Honestly though it's ridiculous that I could've said the same exact thing without the word "you" but still be referring to the SAME PEOPLE and you'd agree, but since I slipped and my post went from objective to personal suddenly I'm a racist.

Originally posted by daTROOF
No cause it doesn't matter if I believe in race or not; the people in charge do and that can lead to unequality between the supposed "races."

Honestly though it's ridiculous that I could've said the same exact thing without the word "you" but still be referring to the SAME PEOPLE and you'd agree, but since I slipped and my post went from objective to personal suddenly I'm a racist.

Oh I still agree.....I just find it quite offensive....like saying:


So then the question is: why is a black neighborhood a ghetto and a white neighborhood a gated community? Is the system unfair or did perhaps you blacks just screw up?

Originally posted by Soleran
I'm sorry was there ever any mention of my ethnicity, yet you assume alot don't you, thats very scholarly I suppose. Since you appear to know so much when was the last time you read a good book while incarcertated in the american penal system? Let me ask you have you ever been to a ghetto in the USA and say been around them daily, for I don't know a period of 6 months?

Your statistics have about as much value as mine do, at that is simply how they are interpreted and presented. Ever seen Good Will Hunting, because you are sounding alot like Will here.

Something that never ceases to amaze me is how so many people from so many countries can now how to fix so many problems in the USA without actually spending as much time here researching as they are reading a book, watching the news etc etc. Stand on the soap box WAY over there and shout again why we have so many issues.

Reality is there is higher crimes in impovershed areas and more blacks populate those areas.....................now quickly find more statistics to justify that!
Well isn't this a coincidence!!

I happen to spend a whole semester in Detroit, as a part of my University exchange program. Not a lot, but certainly got to see a lot.

Coincidently my topic was Violence in Society, and I got to do a lot of work regarding violence in the street - we even got to go and see jail and meet the deputy (who was rather hot too ).

I have not lived in Ghetto, but I have certainly seen it.
What I found rather scary and heart stopping was when we were advised that in certain areas of Detroit, if we happen to be driving by at certain time do not stop at the red light, but keep on driving!

Obviously my professors girlfriend took us around there, since our prof thought we're all gonna die - it was kinda funny at the time. She didn't live in Ghetto, but she knew her way around that particular part of Detroit well, since she used to date some guy from there or something.

Anyway, while it was all exciting (the prospect of possibly getting shot at, even though we were in the car) it was scary at the same time.

The parts we got to see, is like they are not in America at all but in some random poverty stricken third world country or something.

So yeah, I happen to see Ghetto in Detroit, in something other than books.


As far as that goes up there - last year (i know you dont wanna hear my life story, but bare with me) I had to do work experience in my field, so i decided to go help out in prison for like...a day a week. (well 5 hours a day, each week)

I didn't get to SEE the cells or anything like that, but you got to speak and see the people who are imprisoned and they are by a great majority uneducated. They are economically disadvantaged...it was sad!

I knew these people stole things and used drugs, but seeing them get excited over simple GCSE (thats like a school exam people take at 16 here in UK) maths problem which they understood how to do.

It was sad. Thats why I decided to do something regarding prison for my final year...

Not that anything I said is original or new - lots of people before me have said the same, i just showed my support.


Originally posted by daTROOF
So then the question is: why is a black neighborhood a ghetto and a white neighborhood a gated community? Are whites naturally superior and more capable of success within the capitalist system or did you perhaps get a bit of an unfair advantage?

What the heck was that supposed to mean?

I've visited friends in prison a few times, and it is by far the most depressing experience of my life. I actually dreaded getting a VO from one of them because I hated going, but always did because it meant the world to them.

I used to live in Detroit, and around it for a very long time. Scary place to be.

Originally posted by Soleran
Something that never ceases to amaze me is how so many people from so many countries can now how to fix so many problems in the USA without actually spending as much time here researching as they are reading a book, watching the news etc etc. Stand on the soap box WAY over there and shout again why we have so many issues.

Same here; I can't understand it either.


Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I have not lived in Ghetto

Enough said.

I think the punishment should fit the crime.

Only actual misdemeanours should be punished:

The most trivial things should be punished by community service only.

Certainly there is no reason why the most heinous crimes should not receive the worst possible penalties, but there is a concern of the unreliability of legal courts of discerning who is guilty.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
How can 12-15% of your population fill 52% of your prison system? There has to be something wrong there.

Black person is 6 times more likely to get arrested than white person...

It does lead back to poverty. Do you realize how many blacks are poor in this country, and have to do something illegal to get what they need? And then they get caught up in it and start doing it for pleasure and respect and etc. and it leads to other crimes, and they finally get busted.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
It does lead back to poverty. Do you realize how many blacks are poor in this country, and have to do something illegal to get what they need? And then they get caught up in it and start doing it for pleasure and respect and etc. and it leads to other crimes, and they finally get busted.

Do you not read my posts? I have posted few posts back that I never denied black people commiting crimes due to the fact that that 1 out of 3 lives below poverty line in USA, as opposed to one in 10 white people.

Then I have also mentioned that black person is SIX times more likely to be arrested than white. SIX times more likely to be arrested even if that individual is doing nothing other than wear a durag and a baggy pants and is strolling down the street with some friends.

Read the posts.

Second about the crimes - when a parent punsihes a child for doing something wrong, is the parents intent to make child understand what he/she has done wrong, or is parents intent to keep him/her locked up in a basement for the rest of his/her life or even kill the child?

The government IS a parent.

It just happens to like its white children better than black children.

where are you again? Your profile says US but in another post you said, "here in the UK".........

I don't know where you're at but in the United States the average cost per prisoner per year is roughly $20,000. I don't care how many anti-death penalty propoganda sites you post.........doesn't change the fact that to put someone in an electric chair is much cheaper. The chair already exists.....all that must be paid for is maintenance. Add to that the 5 cents worth of water to wet the sponge.......the $2 for the actual electricity and the wages of all government employees to be present for that 20 minutes. That alone comes to far less than the $20,000 it would cost to keep that prisoner for one year.........much less the half million dollars it would cost to keep that prisoner for 25 years. Get out of here with your ignorant crap little girl. Grow up...get a career.....start paying taxes then feel free to comment on it. Nobody cares about your opinion of how your mommy and daddy's hard earned money is being spent.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The government IS a parent.

Not really...the Government is more like a business partner....

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Do you not read my posts? I have posted few posts back that I never denied black people commiting crimes due to the fact that that 1 out of 3 lives below poverty line in USA, as opposed to one in 10 white people.

Then I have also mentioned that black person is SIX times more likely to be arrested than white. SIX times more likely to be arrested even if that individual is doing nothing other than wear a durag and a baggy pants and is strolling down the street with some friends.

Read the posts.

Second about the crimes - when a parent punsihes a child for doing something wrong, is the parents intent to make child understand what he/she has done wrong, or is parents intent to keep him/her locked up in a basement for the rest of his/her life or even kill the child?

The government IS a parent.

It just happens to like its white children better than black children.

Word, no, I only read the first page and a half, maybe. So I apologize if you've already addressed that point.

Yet, how do you figure that the government make it's people understand that what they're doing is wrong? The laws are everywhere! People KNOW what they're doing is wrong, and they do it anyway! Most criminals probably know the law better than the damn cops who arrest them. What else besides telling the people can a government do? They can make consequences for wrong actions. Hey, we did that with prisons and people still commit crimes.

Alot of people actually liked commiting the crime they did, they only regret getting caught.

Lil, these people aren't children, they didn't accidentally spill grape juice on the rug or throw a baseball through the living room window. They are rapists, murderers, gangmembers, thieves and drug dealers, they're expected to know that commiting these acts are wrong before actually committing them, just like everyone else in society, and most of them do know, they simply don't care.

It's not the government's job to treat these people like naive children and teach them why murdering someone or raping someone isn't a good thing to do. It's their jobt to keep these pieces of garbage out of society for as long as necessary to ensure that they don't kill or hurt another person. If they don't know that murdering or raping someone is wrong, then they are too far gone to even attempt to reason with them, they are inherently dangerous to society because of that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh I still agree.....I just find it quite offensive....like saying:


So then the question is: why is a black neighborhood a ghetto and a white neighborhood a gated community? Is the system unfair or did perhaps you blacks just screw up? That shouldn't be that offensive, unless if it's true.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What the heck was that supposed to mean? It was a question..

If mostly "black people" inhabit ghettos, and ghettos produce the most crime, than you have to question why the economic gap between the "races" even exists.

Are "blacks" inferior or did "whites" fight dirty?

Or, maybe it's not even an issue of poverty. Maybe that's just the PCer's tryin not to hurt any feelings again. Are white trailor parks as crime ridden as black housing projects?

Originally posted by daTROOF
That shouldn't be that offensive, unless if it's true.

It was a question..

If mostly "black people" inhabit ghettos, and ghettos produce the most crime, than you have to question why the economic gap between the "races" even exists.

Are "blacks" inferior or did "whites" fight dirty?

Or, maybe it's not even an issue of poverty. Maybe that's just the PCer's tryin not to hurt any feelings again. Are white trailor parks as crime ridden as black housing projects?


Perhaps trailer parks are as filled with crime as black housing projects. The reality is that more poor people commit crimes because its a HELL of alot easier then doing the right thing to make money. Once someone makes easy money, its to easy to keep making it.

Maybe they are. I was asking; I'm not really sure if they are or not.

If it is a matter of poverty, then we're back to the original question, why is there a $$$ gap between black and white?

Thats a good question motivation? lack of opportunity? racism? a lack of guidance? no programs to assist?

I can tell you what I think but I doubt thats the entire reality of the situation.

Maybe if there weren't so many people in jail for buying a quater bag of weed, we could reduce the strain a bit.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Maybe if there weren't so many people in jail for buying a quater bag of weed, we could reduce the strain a bit.



Thats funny but it is correct. The USA could get alot more discretional income if they legalized weed and taxed it Not to mention the USA might be able to get more people interested in agriculture, new cash crop as well as a new product to ship abroad

Capt Fantastic get started and make this so!

So many of those prisons would start to open up for more violent crimes then lame 1/4 oz's.

I do know here that in the MI, that men that don't pay child support are also put in jail (though we all should pay!), and also a 2nd offence of driving while intoxicated is also jail time. I heard one story where someone in the latter case was imprisoned for almost 2 years..