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1) Darth Revan
2) DE Sidious
3) DN Luke
4) Exar Kun
5) Ludo Kressh and Freedon Nadd
6) Naga Sadow and Lord Simus
7) He makes it.

Where does he fall?

How much time does he get between each fight. If he gets lots of time, I say he falls at 6, but if he doesn't get too much time, he would probably fall at 5.

*sigh* How many times can we do this?

Do what?

He crushes all of them with some manner of ease...

Right, he 'crushes' both Simus (who he had previously had a titanic battle with (implying that it was quite close and not easy for Ragnos)) and Sadow (the ancient sith who has displayed the greatest feats of force power in the whole SW universe) after having 'crushed' six opponents including DE Sidious, DN Luke and Exar Kun as well as Ludo Kressh and Freedon Nadd at the same time. Sure thing.

Originally posted by hord06
Right, he 'crushes' both Simus (who he had previously had a titanic battle with (implying that it was quite close and not easy for Ragnos)

Any battle that includes ancient Sith will be "titanic".



Would this be the same Sadow that Ragnos lorded over? The same Sadow that didn't even dare to challenge Ragnos? LMAO, he's Ragnos' inferior by a fair degree.



DE Sidious? He shit his pants if he saw Ragnos. A more ample question would be whether or not Ragnos would have to have all limbs for the fight.



Yep, Luke's displayed enough power to take on the same Sith Lord he was terrified of during Jedi Academy...



What? Kun's Ragnos' inferior by a fair margin.



Ragnos would crush Kressh like a bug...



Erm, Nadd's a non-factor to him. And it's a gauntlet, he takes them one after the other...

No he takes Nadd and Kressh at the same time.

Where does it imply that Ragnos had a hard time defeating Simus? Prove up, otherwise its unsupported speculation, Sadow > all that came after him and if Sadow feared a half dead Ragnos there is nothing to suggest he even stands half a chance against him.

Your argumen is completely flawed. The fact that there was an actual duel between these two implies that they were on the same level. If Ragnos was leagus above Simus, he wouldn't have needed to challenged Simus, and Simus wouldn't have dared challenge him. You sem to think that I somehow underestimate Ragnos. I know that he is the greatest. But to pull off a duel against both Simus and Sadow would be too much for Ragnos. The Sadow that feared Ragnos was not as powerful as the Sadow that we see in Vodo's holocron. And the fear was a mixture between shock (the ancient sith had clearly never been aware of force spirits, so Sadow would have been completely shocked and anxious as to what the ghost could do - for all he knew it served a higher power and would be able to obliterate him in the blink of an eye) and the fact that Ragnos must have commanded fear in his rule. That does not mean he was even leagues above the Sadow as of GAOTS, let alone DLOTS. There is no evidence that suggests he would be able to take out both Simus and Sadow, let alone after having faced all of these other opponents and let alone crushing them.

When was the fight described? Ragnos could either be leagues or a hair above Simus. It wouldn't be correct to assume either.

All we know is Ragnos > Simus.

However it is more likely that he was only slightly better and not leagues above him.

Originally posted by hord06
Your argumen is completely flawed. The fact that there was an actual duel between these two implies that they were on the same level. If Ragnos was leagus above Simus, he wouldn't have needed to challenged Simus, and Simus wouldn't have dared challenge him. You sem to think that I somehow underestimate Ragnos. I know that he is the greatest. But to pull off a duel against both Simus and Sadow would be too much for Ragnos. The Sadow that feared Ragnos was not as powerful as the Sadow that we see in Vodo's holocron. And the fear was a mixture between shock (the ancient sith had clearly never been aware of force spirits, so Sadow would have been completely shocked and anxious as to what the ghost could do - for all he knew it served a higher power and would be able to obliterate him in the blink of an eye) and the fact that Ragnos must have commanded fear in his rule. That does not mean he was even leagues above the Sadow as of GAOTS, let alone DLOTS. There is no evidence that suggests he would be able to take out both Simus and Sadow, let alone after having faced all of these other opponents and let alone crushing them.

Sadow as of the death of Ragnos is not shown nor depicted to have learnt any new techniques nor improved his force powers/dueling, he fought over the mantle of the DLOTS with Kressh and once he took it he invaded the Republic, you making a completely unsupported assumption. Where you state that he is "unaware" of the Force Spirits, consider that Ragnos was the 9th DLOTS and that Ajunta Pall and the earlier Sith lords had "Force Ghosts" your making an argument based on the miniority "the what if" part. Consider Ben Kenobi and Luke Skywalker, previously Luke had no experience with even the Force in ANH, yet he was not "suprised nor shocked nor anxious" he simply took it as reality, and him being a barely trained Padawan was not afraid what makes you think Sadow who commands such terrifying power will fear or become shocked of a mere ghost?

Ragnos was known to have pitted enemies against each other and HIMSELF to prevent the the Ancient Sith from expanding too close to the Republic, Simus and Sadow were against his ways. We can only speculate on the fight, you're operating on nothing but speculation, you assume that because one has challenged another, they are within the same league, however its neccesarrily the case, consider Luke Skywalker challenging Vader in ESB, there was no doubt Vader was superior, for all you know Ragnos forced Simus into that fight.

Oh i'll operate by your logic, Ragnos and Simus fought centuries ago, so your saying Sadow improves within a period of at most 10 years, and Ragnos doesnt improve over centuries? Yep great logic, if you assume that Sadow was stronger in GAOTS then i can assume the Ragnos who fought Simus centuries ago is much weaker than the Ragnos as of DLOTS.

Originally posted by hord06
However it is more likely that he was only slightly better and not leagues above him.

Perhaps during that period "centuries ago" Ragnos certainly improved over centuries.

Originally posted by Deception
Sadow as of the death of Ragnos is not shown nor depicted to have learnt any new techniques nor improved his force powers/dueling, he fought over the mantle of the DLOTS with Kressh and once he took it he invaded the Republic, you making a completely unsupported assumption. Where you state that he is "unaware" of the Force Spirits, consider that Ragnos was the 9th DLOTS and that Ajunta Pall and the earlier Sith lords had "Force Ghosts" your making an argument based on the miniority "the what if" part. Consider Ben Kenobi and Luke Skywalker, previously Luke had no experience with even the Force in ANH, yet he was not "suprised nor shocked nor anxious" he simply took it as reality, and him being a barely trained Padawan was not afraid what makes you think Sadow who commands such terrifying power will fear or become shocked of a mere ghost?

Ragnos was known to have pitted enemies against each other and HIMSELF to prevent the the Ancient Sith from expanding too close to the Republic, Simus and Sadow were against his ways. We can only speculate on the fight, you're operating on nothing but speculation, you assume that because one has challenged another, they are within the same league, however its neccesarrily the case, consider Luke Skywalker challenging Vader in ESB, there was no doubt Vader was superior, for all you know Ragnos forced Simus into that fight.

Oh i'll operate by your logic, Ragnos and Simus fought centuries ago, so your saying Sadow improves within a period of at most 10 years, and Ragnos doesnt improve over centuries? Yep great logic, if you assume that Sadow was stronger in GAOTS then i can assume the Ragnos who fought Simus centuries ago is much weaker than the Ragnos as of DLOTS.

Read the comics. They were not aware of force ghosts. I don't have time to debate with someone arguing from ignorance. And please explain what point you actually have when you say that Ragnos must have improved since his duel with Simus. Not only is that obvious, you're telling me something I already know and it has no relevance to the subject at all.

"Sadow as of the death of Ragnos is not shown nor depicted to have learnt any new techniques nor improved his force powers/dueling"

What do you call blowing up a star you idiot. I also happen to believe that he built his amulets after FOTSE.

Originally posted by hord06
"Sadow as of the death of Ragnos is not shown nor depicted to have learnt any new techniques nor improved his force powers/dueling"

What do you call blowing up a star you idiot. I also happen to believe that he built his amulets after FOTSE.

Your the ignorant one, he is not shown to have used the technique earlier because he had no need to, where does it show that he even needs his amulet to blow up a star?

Originally posted by hord06
Read the comics. They were not aware of force ghosts. I don't have time to debate with someone arguing from ignorance. And please explain what point you actually have when you say that Ragnos must have improved since his duel with Simus. Not only is that obvious, you're telling me something I already know and it has no relevance to the subject at all.

So absence of proof is proof of absence, like i said Luke Skywalker was not aware of Force Ghosts in ANH he barely knew anything to do with the Jedi and Sith.

If you state that Sadow is stronger than he was in a period of 10 years. Then its obviously assumed that Ragnos after centuries will indeed be leagues above Simus.

Originally posted by Deception
Your the ignorant one, he is not shown to have used the technique earlier because he had no need to, where does it show that he even needs his amulet to blow up a star?

I wasn't saying that he needed his amulets to blow up stars. I just mentioned that both his amulets were never seen in FOTSE and GAOTS.

"Consider Ben Kenobi and Luke Skywalker, previously Luke had no experience with even the Force in ANH, yet he was not "suprised nor shocked nor anxious" he simply took it as reality."

He originally thought that he was dreaming. Ben also posed no threat to him at all and so he was surprised but not scared. Naga Sadow and Ragnos were clearly not on great terms, he had never seen a force ghost before and for all he knew, Ragnos' spirit could have done some next force attack that wipes him out in a second. He's not just going to refuse Ragnos' commands.

And? Does that substantiate any evidence or proof for anything whatsoever? No.

Even if you were correct and Sadow did get stronger, the Ragnos centuries after his duel with Simus is indeed leagues above him. This makes the duel even moreso in Ragnos's favour, since he will crush Simus and defeat Sadow.

Originally posted by Deception
Where does it imply that Ragnos had a hard time defeating Simus? Prove up, otherwise its unsupported speculation, Sadow > all that came after him and if Sadow feared a half dead Ragnos there is nothing to suggest he even stands half a chance against him.

Thats complete BullSh*t. R2-D2 would mop Ragnos' ass across the floor worse than Galacticus, who is already stronger than any Jedi/Sith ever known.

Probably loses at 6, but definately not before then.

Originally posted by hord06
"Sadow as of the death of Ragnos is not shown nor depicted to have learnt any new techniques nor improved his force powers/dueling"

What do you call blowing up a star you idiot. I also happen to believe that he built his amulets after FOTSE.

The gig's up, Numan. You were more subtle this time, but you dropped that facade quickly enough.

Its only subtle because his location isnt "United Kingdom." Now its "Rome." And if you think about it, if he was in Rome, would he really be speaking english?

Yep, foreigners are barred from speaking, or heaven forbid knowing about the English language...

Originally posted by hord06
Your argumen is completely flawed. The fact that there was an actual duel between these two implies that they were on the same level. If Ragnos was leagus above Simus, he wouldn't have needed to challenged Simus, and Simus wouldn't have dared challenge him. You sem to think that I somehow underestimate Ragnos. I know that he is the greatest. But to pull off a duel against both Simus and Sadow would be too much for Ragnos. The Sadow that feared Ragnos was not as powerful as the Sadow that we see in Vodo's holocron. And the fear was a mixture between shock (the ancient sith had clearly never been aware of force spirits, so Sadow would have been completely shocked and anxious as to what the ghost could do - for all he knew it served a higher power and would be able to obliterate him in the blink of an eye) and the fact that Ragnos must have commanded fear in his rule. That does not mean he was even leagues above the Sadow as of GAOTS, let alone DLOTS. There is no evidence that suggests he would be able to take out both Simus and Sadow, let alone after having faced all of these other opponents and let alone crushing them.

No it doesn't. Tell me where it ever was that a "duel" means both combatants are completely even.

We know they dueled. We know Ragnos put his head in a jar. We know he was the most powerful of the most powerful, we know they all feared him when he "ruled the galaxy with an iron fist."

You're speculating here that they're near equal footing. This entire thread is, that's why this thread sucks.

Ragnos loses at 2, get over it you noobs.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Ragnos loses at 2, get over it you noobs.

How's that hash?

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Ragnos loses at 2, get over it you noobs.

If you're going to worship at the altar of Lightsnake, you should at least learn to make a cogent argument.

Originally posted by IKC
If you're going to worship at the altar of Lightsnake, you should at least learn to make a cogent argument.
haha

Ragnos goes all the way, there is no argument needed for the obvious.

It's never said how Ragnos bested Simus, all we know if Simus lost.

Ragnos dies at 2. Do I even need to post the scan again? Perhaps an email from Dan Wallace? The Leland Chee quotes from the Holocron?

You're an idiot lightsnake. Sorry, but Sidious was nowhere near the most powerful, that isn't stated anywhere that is more canon than the comic books. Your fanboyism was evident before you disappeared forever.

Except...it WAS stated in the comic books...and official guides which have rewritten comic history...and it was never stated he wasn;'t the strongest in the comics...

He ignites his light sabre to finish a broken and battered Sadow, and then just he is about to strike the finishing blow and claim hismelf the most powerful of powerful, R2-D2 beeps, making Ragnos' head explode. "Thats for trying to take my title B*tch!"

Ragnos is the most powerful of the most powerful, THE Dark Lord, google it.

Oh, come on now!....Ragnos would use a Sith Sword. THEN Artoo'd ruin him

And Sidious is the most powerful in history, Quoth Dan Wallace on said subject: And Dan worked with KJA:

>Subject: Re: Reply from your Star Wars Blog
>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:32:35 EDT
>
>
>In a message dated 4/20/2006 1:30:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>[email protected] writes:
>
>One final question though, In the Book Tales of the Jedi Golden Age of the
>Sith there is a quote saying Markas Ragnos "The most powerful of the
>powerful" is that to be taken as refrence only to the ancient Sith Lords? Or
>is this quote Retconned altogether?
>
>
>Well, keep in mind that the Golden Age of the Sith book is set 5000 years
>before the movies, so it's possible that Marka Ragnos was the most powerful Sith
> at that time -- and much later, Sidious later broke that record.
>
>Best,
> Dan

Originally posted by tdtd
Ragnos goes all the way, there is no argument needed for the obvious.

YOur an idiot for thinking Ragnos is the most powerful of powerful and R2 is not.


Lord R2, forgive him. For he kows not what he is doing.

And this is your canon source? LOL! Sidious didn't possess even a fraction of the power most of these guys had and you're claiming he was the most powerful? He was the greatest, not the most powerful, not even close. This is a fact lightsnake, get over it or disappear for another 6 months.

Prove he didn't have a fraction of power when source from 2005 says he was the most powerful ever. I'm tired of posting that scan...

>Subject: Re: Reply from your Star Wars Blog
>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:32:35 EDT
>
>
>In a message dated 4/20/2006 1:30:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>[email protected] writes:
>
>One final question though, In the Book Tales of the Jedi Golden Age of the
>Sith there is a quote saying Markas Ragnos "The most powerful of the
>powerful" is that to be taken as refrence only to the ancient Sith Lords? Or
>is this quote Retconned altogether?
>
>
>Well, keep in mind that the Golden Age of the Sith book is set 5000 years
>before the movies, so it's possible that Marka Ragnos was the most powerful Sith
> at that time -- and much later, Sidious later broke that record.
>
>Best,
> Dan

This isn't proof lightsnake, it's a damn email. Show me the website.

http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proof9gs.jpg

http://by24fd.bay24.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg?msg=MSG1145554363.11&start=8148&len=3358&imgsafe=n&curmbox=F000000001& amp;a=ac2f45813a3edeffd2d844fd3a8bf9d3941b31346376
c1e61c716a8111788377

mmm..cookies...

Wtf since when is this C-Canon?

Since it was written? You are aware guides and books are all C-canon? And as this IS a book...

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
mmm..cookies...

What do cookies have to do with anything?

Who's Dan? Since when does Dan have total rights over all canon policies, even over the actual source material.

>Subject: Re: Reply from your Star Wars Blog
>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:22:11 EDT
>
>
>In a message dated 4/20/2006 1:30:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>[email protected] writes:
>
>
>Omfg teh cideus pwnz00rs all!!11 I haev al his sutff on my wal lol!!!11
>
>
>
>Well, keep in mind that you are a friggin' fanboy who loves this character way too much.
>I suggest you stop trying to prove yourself on an online forum and go outside and play sports or something.
>Maybe get a girlfriend or pet hamster or something.
> Just stop emailing me on your creepy Sidious fetish.
>
>Best,
Dan

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
What do cookies have to do with anything?

Everything, padawan, everything....

Lightsnake is giving me a headache with his nonsense..

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Who's Dan? Since when does Dan have total rights over all canon policies, even over the actual source material.

>Subject: Re: Reply from your Star Wars Blog
>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:22:11 EDT
>
>
>In a message dated 4/20/2006 1:30:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>[email protected] writes:
>
>
>Omfg teh cideus pwnz00rs all!!11 I haev al his sutff on my wal lol!!!11
>
>
>
>Well, keep in mind that you are a friggin' fanboy who loves this character way too much.
>I suggest you stop trying to prove yourself on an online forum and go outside and play sports or something.
>Maybe get a girlfriend or pet hamster or something.
> Just stop emailing me on your creepy Sidious fetish.
>
>Best,
Dan

I believe he is refering to Dan Wallace...

Oh, you know something really amusing, Janus? Dan wallace wrote this book...he had a co-author...in this book where Darth Sidious is declared the mightiest Sith Lord of all time, guess who co-wrote this book.

Kevin J. Anderson. End of story.

um..thats not Janus...

JanusMarius isn't Janus?

Except that doesn't make it more canon than TOTJ so stop talking out of your ass.

You're right, it doesn't. However, it contradicts nothing in TOTJ and is SUPPORTED by the AUTHOR of TOTJ

Originally posted by Lightsnake
JanusMarius isn't Janus?

He thought you were talking to me.

I think you missed my point, Lightsnake. I can make false emails too. Prove up. Show us a screen shot, or have Dan respond with an official statement. I find it hard to believe that the makers and shakers of Star Wars EU swap canon details with you and your body via email. Please.

30 minutes of arguing with lightsnake and my head hurts, enjoy Janus.

http://by24fd.bay24.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg?msg=MSG1145554363.11&start=8148&len=3358&imgsafe=n&curmbox=F000000001& amp;a=ac2f45813a3edeffd2d844fd3a8bf9d3941b31346376
c1e61c716a8111788377
Revolver OCelot's seen it too if you need verification
Dan Wallace runs a Blog, he's very active with fanmail and he's a real nice guy. Janus, there's something I'd like to bring up, malice aside:
Dan Wallace didn't write this book alone, Kevin J. Anderson wrote it with him, meaning Kevin himself wrote that part about Sidious or had to approve of it.

And for the millionth time, NEC isn't more canon than anything else, so unless you prove it, shut up.

Oh, bloody....I'm not claiming it's more canon than anything else except by this insane law of 'latest takes precedence!'
It contradicts nothing! In fact, the author of TOTJ co-wrote it!

Originally posted by tdtd
30 minutes of arguing with lightsnake and my head hurts, enjoy Janus.

I have class early in the morning. He's someone else's problem now.

*Tags out*

Lightsnake, I don't know where you're linking to. You gotta Prt Sc -> "Paste" on Microsoft Word or any other application -> Save image as -> Host on imageshack.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I have class early in the morning. He's someone else's problem now.

*Tags out*


Damnit..

And I just posted said link to the email

I can't view that link since it's for your hotmail and yours alone. It's going into a secure site.

Meh, maybe it's just FireFox.

you'll ave to ask Styles, it's his IM

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, bloody....I'm not claiming it's more canon than anything else except by this insane law of 'latest takes precedence!'
It contradicts nothing! In fact, the author of TOTJ co-wrote it!

Latest primary source material takes precedence. Reference guides are secondary at best.

So one quote of NEC now disapproves numerous quotes and implications on Ragnos being the Most Powerful of the Most Powerful?

You claim Sidious can win because?? Logically by comparing the two Sith Lords phyiscally and comparing the feats done by the Ancient Sith, i hardly put Sidious above Sadow, or perhaps even Kun.

Also that means that NEC is on par in terms of Canon with the Comics which have also said Ragnos being the most powerful of the most powerful, also most "powerful Sith Lord in history," whilst in Ragnos's time we know that the strongest ruled, we also have evidence that in Sidious's time the strongest "Politically Ruled," Sidious was most powerful, he as literally the senate that does infact make him the most powerful Sith Lord in history in terms of Politcs and the domination of the Republic.

Also that quote quite frankly refers to Sidious as of ROTS to ROTJ, why are you deciding that it also refers to DE Sidious?

History, that is also a fickle term, it didnt specifically state from Ancient Sith to DN, it stated purely the word history, but from which timeline? Ruusan? Hoth/Banes time? Frankly that quote is even vaguer than the Ominscent Narrator stating Ragnos was THE Dark Lord of the Sith, The Most Powerful of the Most Powerful.

Nai said it best.. Books>Comics>Sourcebooks>Games

>Subject: Re: Reply from your Star Wars Blog
>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:32:35 EDT
>
>
>In a message dated 4/20/2006 1:30:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>[email protected] writes:
>
>
>I love Kit Fisto.
>He is my most ultimate embodiment of coolness.
>His tentacles are teh uber secksy.
>I'm going to name my first child Kit.
>
>
>Child, God is angry with you.
> You need to stop loving this evil "Demon Wars" and love God, the savior.
>Beings like "Kit Fisto" are made to lead children astray.
>For example, the word "Kit" is demon slang for Kitzansmopiak, or "Evil Drone".
> And "Fisto", which is Italian for anal fisting.
>Go now, child, and be liberated from this evil series.
>Be free... For only 19.95 if you buy my book.
>
>
>Best,
>Father Dan.

Oh great, that means Kit Fisto>ARtoo

Yeah, or it means that Dan and the NEC have retconned all of Star Wars and now it's all demon porn!

LOL

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's never said how Ragnos bested Simus, all we know if Simus lost.


He beheaded him. Appears odd to me that anybody except you knows that.

And please:

a)
Anderson is the co-author of the NEC, yes but most of the work was done by Wallace and I don't see Anderson writing anything about Sidious. And no - he didn't have to acknowledge anything - this is Wallace's book, not Andersons.

b)
You can't simply ignore all information given that bolster Ragnos position:

- he is labelled the "most powerful of the most powerful" in the "Golden Age of the Sith" with "titanic force powers". All done by the narrators (aka Veitch / Anderson) and this can't be overwritten by a sourcebook (and the NEC is a sourcebook per definitionem).
- Luke with Battle Meditation support by Leia was able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber fight and he, Leia + unborn Anakin were able to seperate him from his force storm - Luke himself thought it would take the combined power of the entire Academy to try and defeat a living Ragnos
- Ragnos reigned over freaking amazing people for more than 100 years. Even after his death when he appeared as a ghost Sith Lord dropped on their knees before him - Sidious couldn't even keep Vader and DE Luke under control.

c)
The only persons able to give any "official" judgement about force powers of individuals are the creators of said characters. Wallace personal opinion (if that E-Mail isn't a fake - and I believe it is seeing who posted it) means jack shit. Unless you have a quote by Anderson or Veitch directly that all the people are inferior to Sidious you have exactly no argument.

"he is labelled the "most powerful of the most powerful" in the "Golden Age of the Sith" with "titanic force powers"

Golden age of the ancient sith race. The most powerful ever by the time of his death. Wow who doesn't have titanic force powers.

No Numan, he is labeled as the most powerful of the most powerful period, but with your logic, it means the exact the same thing because the Sith during the golden age WERE the greatest, and they were godlike. Who doesn't have titanic force powers? Everyone outside if the ancient sith and maybe, MAYBE DN Luke.

Duz! Plo Koon had titanic force powers... he could freez creeks!

Proof it was the most powerful period. I'd like a quote to this godlike bull, too

Google it again numbnuts. The Golden Age of the Sith described the sith as Godlike and at the peak of their power in terms of sith magic.

Prove it. Scan please. And I want something saying of all time, nothing referring to that period and that period alone. 'Of all time,' 'ever', 'in history.'

Again, the Golden Age of the Sith had Godlike warriors, and Ragnos was the dominant and absolute ruler of these people. We know very little of what was before the Golden Age, but we know what the Golden Age constitutes. Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful, so you have nothing to contradict that.

I want quotes that say they were godlike, because in DE Palpatine is called a divinity.

And in DE, which was written in 92, it's as if the Sith have only been alive for 1-2,000 years I forget which, which was obviously disproved when TOTJ came out.

Actually it was a supplement to DE written in 2005...and by the way, DE established the Sith as around for Millenia and actually created Ulic Qel-Droma

Right, and unless you have proof that any of that is more canon than KJA, the fact remains that the sith have been alive for at least 10,000 years.

Umm...KJA co-wrote it?

And the Sith species is only a hundred millenia old. The empire is two thousand years old. Confirmed by Leland Chee, organizer and official on LFL canon policies and continuity

I posted this a while back in the Marka Ragnos thread and I think that it accurately explains how Ragnos and the ancient sith really wouldn't be too great in a 1 on 1 battle.



"How do you really think Ragnos would even defeat someone like Yoda. He wouldn't be able to crush him with the force like you have already said. Think back to the book Shadow Hunter when Darsha Assant (I think that's her name) mentions that her master used to force throw boulders with ease, yet struggled to lift up pebbles. The sith magics were clearly able to amplify the FORCE POWER of the user to perform extremely distructive powers such as blowing up stars, but FORCE CONTROL is vital for performing destructive force powers in a small scale, and seeing as there is no evidence of the sith having great control over the force and no evidence that the sith magics amplifying that aspect of the force, I am inclined to believe that the ancient sith would be able to do anything special in a 1 on 1 battle. The fact that the most powerful sith magic that can be used in small fights was Kun's amulet kind of helps my point. It also explains why Naga Sadow resorted to a swordfight with Ludo Kressh when he wanted to be the dark lord. Yet when he was in his ship, he used his destructive sith magic."

LOL... Nice logic Numan. Except nobody would be able to stand up to the ancient sith. And KJA is as canon if not more than your NEC.

Well, considering HE HELPED WRITE IT!

What's your point? And the author of NEC didn't write KJA NOR HELPED! That means KJA did more!

....KJA co-wrote the NEC, you're trying to say it's more canon than him, that's paradoxical

Ok and as Janus said, the author NEC has no knowledge of TOTJ, so he would essentially be throwing his opinion in without knowledge.

He...only wrote the NEC with the man-do you even KNOW what a Co-Author IS?!- who created and wrote TOTJ's story

What is your point, KJA co wrote NEC, and was the only author of TOTJ..

Actually, tom Veitch and another guy co-wrote TOTJ, too

If you mean did the designs, that's not co writing the storyline.

No, it says "Text by."
And "Written by Tom Veitch and Kevin. J Anderson."

Originally posted by Borbarad
He beheaded him. Appears odd to me that anybody except you knows that.

And please:

a)
Anderson is the co-author of the NEC, yes but most of the work was done by Wallace and I don't see Anderson writing anything about Sidious. And no - he didn't have to acknowledge anything - this is Wallace's book, not Andersons.

b)
You can't simply ignore all information given that bolster Ragnos position:

- he is labelled the "most powerful of the most powerful" in the "Golden Age of the Sith" with "titanic force powers". All done by the narrators (aka Veitch / Anderson) and this can't be overwritten by a sourcebook (and the NEC is a sourcebook per definitionem).
- Luke with Battle Meditation support by Leia was able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber fight and he, Leia + unborn Anakin were able to seperate him from his force storm - Luke himself thought it would take the combined power of the entire Academy to try and defeat a living Ragnos
- Ragnos reigned over freaking amazing people for more than 100 years. Even after his death when he appeared as a ghost Sith Lord dropped on their knees before him - Sidious couldn't even keep Vader and DE Luke under control.

c)
The only persons able to give any "official" judgement about force powers of individuals are the creators of said characters. Wallace personal opinion (if that E-Mail isn't a fake - and I believe it is seeing who posted it) means jack shit. Unless you have a quote by Anderson or Veitch directly that all the people are inferior to Sidious you have exactly no argument.

Pwnt. I expect Lightsnake to be dodging this any second now.

1. So? Anderson is still writing it and his name is on it. Janus, did you conveniently ignore the others posters in the thread?

2. You can't ignore all the info that boisters Sidious's position or how Dan said Palpatine later took the title of most powerful from Ragnos. And DE said all Leia could do was watch...she couldn't affect a thing.

3. And you have something with Ragnos? No, sorry, I have an in universe quote and DIRECT links proving it counts, including links to SW's official site! I'd like to see you prove your statements on the hierarchy of canonicity or how only authors/creators can determine things. I'd like a link or any statement, because it's blatant hypocrisy if you think that way. LFL employees tend to> Fan opinion. Nai, read my thread on the Lit board and read the links I gave. I don't care if you think the email's fake, I posted a link to it and Revolver saw it. The facts remain: The NEC on SW's OFFICIAL SITE was said to provide 'new information' and I posted the hierarchy of canon...guess what, comics and SBs are on the same level.

I'm tired it being called a compilation, it's as much a book as anything else and I'd like ABSOLUTE PROOF it cannot create canon. It's the ESSENTIAL Chronology.

Sidious took the title from Ragnos now? Please.

Lmao Lightsnake.

a)
How about presenting proof for your nice little assertions before demanding proof from others, huh ? Would be a great idea. But don't throw faked e-mails, non-existing quotes and so on at me again because that was already boring a few months in the past and - it doesn't get more entertaining.

b)
So. There is no contradiction in the NEC ? Can you tell me what date your NEC gives you for the "First Great Shism" ? Mine says 24,500 BBY and somehow I have this here:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/empirestarted.jpg


But the Sith Empire was founded 7,000 years BBY ? You really want to tell me that the same Dark Jedi had a 17,400 (100 fighting = battle ended in 24,400 BBY) year journey from Republic space to Korriban and managed to stay alive for that period of time ? Of course. And don't return with a "But Leland Chee confirmed the retcon". You have posted the link and Chee didn't even notice the contradiction and then ignored the proof for said contradiction by the next poster.

c)
And WE TE EF ? That time period shouldn't be the greatest of the Sith ? Those people had centuries to study the Dark Side. Sadow for example remembers the duel between Ragnos and Simus (which happened more than a century before GAotS) and said that Simus was his trained and mentor before that.

Just look at what they did:
- obliterating huge statues with a handmovement (Kressh)
- remaining alive as a talking head for more then a centure (Simus)
- creating artificial solar flares using the force (Sadow)
- using force lightning / force illusions like toys (all)
- obliterating stars / sun systems - creating supernovas (Sadow / his ship used by Aleema)
- nearly taking down 3 planets at once due to his force powers (just failing because of betrayal)

Or to put it in the words of the DLotS narrator:
"Naga Sadow considers the death of a star system a small prize for his own survival" (while showing Sadow destroying a fleet of scout ships with a handmovement destabilyzing two nearby stars).

And Ragnos dominated them for over a century. Meh...when Ragnos spirit shows up during Kresshs and Sadows duell, Kressh believes that Ragnos has come to crush Sadow - he apparently believed that Ragnos spirit would be enough to crush a powerful Sith Lord. Ragnos sceptre, even in the hand of a lesser force user could rip through walls, drain the force energy of entire planets and floor trained Jedi Masters.

What exactly do you want to argue ? Sidious doesn't even come close to those people. They would crush him like a bug.

d)
You can throw in statements from random people like you want but it won't help you. The NEC labels Sidious "the greatest Sith Lord in history" ? Oh...he was...he was the only one to conquer the entire Republic. Very great. Does that help him in a fight ? No. He was "the most powerful", yeah...in terms of political power ? You can say what you want but the actual sources show people using greater amounts of force powers and combat skills. And even those were just Ragnos servants...

And anything else you have are just opinions by human beings. No they aren't superior to anybody elses opinions unless coming from the creators of the stories themselves. Anything else is just a guess. And being an LFL employee doesn't make you all knowing or unfailable as you can see under point "b". Sorry, dude.

Conclusion:
You don't have any base for an argument. So why you try to come here with the same dumb arguments you had pwned over and over again months ago ? Really...seems as somebody here has the cognition of a dead starfish and a similar skill in debates that a fish has when it comes to climb mountains.

A. I provided NUMEROUS links

B. I've posted it time and time again: It was RETCONNED and Leland Chee said it himself. And I don't see a date there. It was decided ODan messed up on his schisms. The Legions of Lettow didn't become Sith, just go to the Lit thread and read it

c. And in the comic where Naga DESTROYS the star, it's stated to be his ship and KJA wrote it's his ship in the first chronology.

D. I can list those feats to other people, too. Luke and Palpatine, among others. Don't see any of them destroying fleets or razing worlds to uninhabited wastelands...

E. Oh, cut it out. I posted the scan, I posted the info of the retcon, I posted a link to the SW site showing it could provide new info, I posted to Leland Chee and the canon policy, quit ignoring it

Lightsnake, I looked at the excerpt on the NEC on SW.com- it says specifically it's a "compilation".

Alright. It's still a book and an accepted part of C canon, it also says there that it creates new info for the SW universe.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. I provided NUMEROUS links


You provided plenty of meaningless bullshit.



Dude. Leland Chee didn't say it himself because he didn't even notice that there was a retcon. So would you stop lying ? Just again only for you:

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=0645

Question:
"I mean, changing the date for the birth of the Sith Empire is a fairly large retcon, and you and Dan Wallace appear to readily acknowledge this."

Leeland answering:
"I'm not sure I understand the discrepency. The Sith Empire still begins after the dark Jedi discover the Sith species, ~ 7000 BBY. The Legions of Lettow were not Sith."

And then look at that:
http://blogs.starwars.com/LordScourge/7

Uh, damn. Mr. Chee didn't even spot the discrepency and then ignored it. And the authors of the blog also pretty much pwns any information in the NEC contradicting the original sources because of that:



Damn it. The NEC just pwned itself as a thrustable source. Lmao.



Wow. He could create a freaking ship able to destroy stars an cause supernovas by using the force. Sidious had to waste tons of resources and more than a decade of time to create a damn space station that was able to destroy a single planet every 24 hrs. Hmm...who is the greater force user and Sith here...let me think.



No ? Excuse me: What do you think Sadow did creating artificial solar flares and destroying the ships that pursued him ? Destroying a fleet maybe ? What do you think Aleema did with his ship tossing the core of a star arround and causing a supernova ? Destroying several fleets / planets maybe. If you didn't see that you should probably read the original sources instead of sticking to a chronology that labels itself inaccurate per definitionem.



- You posted an opinion
- You lied about the retcon
- "providing new info" is not "contradict everything
- Leland Chee's canon policy labeled sourcebooks a "special case" in terms of C-Canon and you ignored it.

Anything else to say ? Yes ? I hope you understand the following:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/funstuff/blahblah.jpg

Oh, for the love of...I proved that the chronology is on the same level as any book or comic.

And proof how Naga got that ship? How long they took to make on planets with more wealth than the Republic? Yeah, no proof.

And what lie? Leland said it himself: There's no discrepancy, the Sith Empire begins at 7000 BBY. That is now canon fact in SW and you're the only one who tries to argue it.


And I'm sick of this 'contradicting' bullshit. What the HELL does it contradict? There was NEVER a date on the Sith Empire in the original comics OR a "Ragnos was the strongest of all time" In them either. Want to bring up Dark Empire and its supplementary material?

Once again, this isn't a sourcebook, there aren't RPG stats and the C Canon policy is "Story and background info fly, game stats and gameplay do not." I pointed that out numerous times

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Its obviosu now that acually R2 is the best. SO this bickering is useless. I mean look, MY scan is actually from GL. Yours is from the guy who had a bunch of padawans force push 17 stardestroeyrs light-years away. I win.

Let's do this point by point since you seem to miss the concepts:

1- Prove to us that Dan Wallace has the authority to make the claims you said he did on this "email".

2- Prove to us that KJA signed off on a single line of hyperbole in the profile of a character he doesn't even deal with on a COMPILATION reference material that he cowrote.

3- Show us exactly what KJA -did- in cowriting that reference material. Nothing suggests that they sat down next to each other and proofread over the other's shoulder. That's ridiculous.

4- Again, show how a reference material can effectively retcon the source material it supposively references.

Posted reply to this on the other thread.

And seriously, what's the use. I've proven my claims, as backed up by people on the other forum. You'd deny this even if I had a quote from Lucas. You can argue semantics till you're blue in the fact, but this is official. You are not.

Again, bring me proof to answer those points (Since you ARE making the claims here), or stop wasting my time. You haven't proven anything.

I already have. You've been ignoring it or discarding it as it suits you

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, for the love of...I proved that the chronology is on the same level as any book or comic.

Dude...to make it clear:
The NEC is a book "inside" the SW universe written by the Historic Council of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances (in 36 ABY) and itself says that some informations are inaccurate because of the events happening in the SW universe before. So. When it contradicts the original sources that means that this is caused by a "lack of information". The NEC undermined it's authority to retcon something by it's own definition. Consider this book to be pwned.



Sidious needed a "technological nightmare" to do what the ancient Sith did by using the force. Think of that fact again and see what conclusion you can draw, genious.



The discrepancy is that the NEC itself puts the First Great Shism in the year 24,500 and - as the picture I've shown shows you - the Dark Jedi arrived at the Sith homeworld after this First Great Shism. Did you get it now ? Mr Chee just missed an inconvenient detail.



Dude. The chronologies give the date of the First Shism. The comic (picture I've posted) states that the Dark Jedi joined the Sith after said Shism so the dating of that event to 7,000 BBY (17,400 years after the First Shism ended) is plain and simple stupid.




It is a compilation or - inside the SW universe - a compilation of knowledge done in 36 ABY. What would a Council of Historians know about events happening 5-7 millenia ago in a completely isolated Empire ? Right: Nothing. You can toss the NEC out of your window since it - by any means - doesn't have the authority needed to retcon anything in the original sources. Period. And now please shut up. I'm already bored of destroying your pointless claims every 10 minutes.

Lightsnake has pwned all of you. Get over it, noobs.

Umm...the poster who said that said he was inclined to think so...he also said "I accept Star Wars has had numerous retcons and will continue to do so."

It's one MB poster's theory, Nai. The character Voren has ever been used as some scribe, and one MBers theory changes nothing. The officially accepted starting date of the Sith Empire now is 7000 BBY. Go to SW.com, try TFN, they can explain the canon policy better there...hell, ask for Leland or another official. Every book with Voren, from the character guide, to the guide to planets/species and the like was an out of universe document with a bit thrown in to make it more of an actual SW book. Once more, what does it contradict in regards to the strength? We still have DE and its supplements?

And once again, prove to me how Sadow got that ship and when it was made.

And Odan-Urr was wrong, the same guy whose theory you're using said that was a possibility...hell, a hundred thousand years? Isn't that pushing it just a tad?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Umm...the poster who said that said he was inclined to think so...he also said "I accept Star Wars has had numerous retcons and will continue to do so."

Dude. The NEC contradicts itself - don't you get it ?



And once again: Leland has not spotted the fact that there is a discrepancy because of the picture I've posted and the fact that the first shism is dated to 24,500 BBY. By that "official" timeline the Dark Jedi needed more than 17,000 years to travel from Republic space to Korriban. Got it now ?



Man. It doesn't matter if Sadow or another Ancient constructed it: Fact remains that Sidious apparently hadn't the power to do the same and so he wasn't the most powerful Sith Lord as well as people outclassed him in other uses of the force. Hell...I could even say that Plagueis > Sidious by all we know about him.



Man. Don't you get it:
First Shism (according to all chronologies): 24,500 BBY

According to this...

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/empirestarted.jpg

... the Dark Jedi joined the Sith directly after the First Great Shism (= 24,500 or 24,400 BBY). Got it now ? So placing that event on the year of 7,000 BBY is absolute bullshit.

No, I would accept a good deal of proof. I haven't seen anything conclusive that states that one line in Sidious' profile in a reference material suddenly retcons the setting and synapsis of source material entirely without anything substantial. I fail to see how Dan Wallace has all the authority in the world to make changes to SW canon on issues of power when he's simply the author of a compilation work. I have yet to see Leland Chee addressing the issue himself, and in the past when he has addressed inconsistancies (As Nai pointed out) he totally ignored them. The issue over who is the most powerful is pretty trivial for a bunch of corporate businessmen, and therefore receives rather lax attention. Also in an interview with Chee, he says he gives presidence to movie related characters over others simply because they have a larger fanbase. This is hardly an objective and complete approach.

And again, nowhere have you shown us how the works of individual authors can suddenly be flipped at the drop of a hat by one sentence in a reference book. Veitch and Anderson both developed the backstory of the ancient Sith. By your logic, Veitch signed off on GAotSE which includes the synapsis. Dan Wallace does not have the authority to override the author's intent on two fronts simply because he makes the NEC. You appeal to authority to get your point across, but it fails you every time. It's like when you argued that Nick Gillard said Sidious mastered all fighting styles, but unfortunately Nick Gillard's official title is "Stunt Coordinator", and his opinion is on par with the Gaffer and Stage Lights Director.

Now, are you going to show me some substantial proof as to how Dan Wallace gets to rewrite the source material at a whim, or are you going to say the same bullshit over and over again? It's not your conclusion I have a problem with, Lightsnake- it's how you reach it. That and your power spamming, which is ridiculous.

And GV, stop sucking Lightsnake off because he supports your favorite character. You walked on eggshells trying to fit in while he's gone and now that your Sidious lover is back, you jump right on his bandwagon. That kind of shit is annoying, and I suddenly lost that respect I was gaining for you.

Janus, you would downplay ANY evidence I have while calling my quote in the book hyperbole when Ragnos, who has never even appeared alive and the Ancient Sith despite all their screwups and failings, are venerated to a plateau high above any other, it's a bit annoying. Even before this conclusion you were flaming me before my absence from the boards.

One author can't do anything on a whim, EVERYTHING needs LFL's backing. LFL vetoed killing off Jacen Solo. Veitch didn't write GaotS, he was working on Empire's End at the time.

Originally posted by Janus Marius


And GV, stop sucking Lightsnake off because he supports your favorite character. You walked on eggshells trying to fit in while he's gone and now that your Sidious lover is back, you jump right on his bandwagon. That kind of shit is annoying, and I suddenly lost that respect I was gaining for you.


I never tried to fit in, I call you guys noobs all the time.

Hmm... I would like to say something. That in SW EU the authors do not have predomiance over their work. Like all big franchise book companies this is decided by whoever regulates canon.

Take Wizards of the Coast for instance. Salvator wanted to keep Wulfgar dead, but WOTC forced him to bring Wulfgar back to life overidding the author's choice. Salvator is also told that certain events must happen within the book. This is all done to regulate canon.

Note that I am not taking sides in this argument. I was just pointing that out.

Now you guys go back to arguing which you all so love to do.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I never tried to fit in, I call you guys noobs all the time.

Yeah. You aren't just skating on thin ice - you're trying to walk across water.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. You aren't just skating on thin ice - you're trying to walk across water.

A shame he's not Jesus

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
A shame he's not Jesus

Umm?

I am.

Get the nails

I don't think you can make a martyr of Great Vengeance.

You guys are fighting about something that is retarted. It all started with a Marka Ragnos Gauntlet. First of all you can't really say who would win according to what we know about each person. They all lived at different times (thousands of yrs apart). Each Sith Lord had thier strength an weeknesses. Sidious was great at persuading people to do his bidding. Not by power or fear but but cunning. Marka Ragnos was a Sith Lord that ruled with an iron fist. Could Sidious do what Ragnos did. No, but could Ragnos do what Sidious did, No. So what is there to compare. Different Lords different strengths. Thats it. Finished. And this "show me proof" sh*t is getting out of hand. Just go with what you feel is right. None of you are writing a book or a movie so what does it really matter. Stories change all the time. This whole history stuff changes from author to author. So just go with the flow. Its a story about history and present. So maybe something happened in the past that the present didn't know about. For example maybe the second great schism was mistaken for the first great schism because at the time of the comic the republic didn't know about it and it was discovered later. So then the name was changed from the first great schism to the second. We don't know. We're not the authors. Just go with the flow and enjoy.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I don't think you can make a martyr of Great Vengeance. if somebody calls themselves the jesus we are obliged to make them feel horrendous pain until satisfied or their insane whichever comes first

Originally posted by Deception

1) Exar Kun.
2) Ludo Kressh and Freedon Nadd.
3) DE Sidious
4) Naga Sadow and Lord Simus.
5) DN Luke
6) Darth Revan
7) He makes it.

Where does he fall?

He makes it to #2.

Originally posted by Count Kent
He makes it to #2. STFU RETARDED NOOB
1.he ***** slaps kun's head off
2.cuts them both in half with one swing
3.Sidious Kneels and beggs for knowledge....
4.he knows simus's weak spots in dueling but before he engages him,he cuts sadow in half head to groin then has another tuff fight with simus but finishes him of quicker with a deathfield that rejuvenates ragnos and kills simus
5.uber pwnage
6.rapes him constantly for 1 hour nonstop
7.makes out with leia...

in short they get