Darth Maul vs ROTJ Vader

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DePWNZOR
Who wins? Personally, I think Vader but only through Force.

Great Vengeance
Vader easily.

Tarvos
Setting? If it's on a platform over some huge drop or fatal material of some sort, Vader easily. Saber fight, not so sure, but I'm leaning towards Vader.

Revolver Ocelot
Done before. Vader wins.

Antediluvian
What the hell is this bullshit?

Show some evidence of Vader winning.

zephiel7
He won an unofficial battle between the two :P

darthsith19
Remember that at this time Vader is conflicted iside. The soul of Anakin is starting to fight back. I say Maul wins just because Vader wouldn't be able to keep up with him. After all, Maul almost beat Vader in a fight once before and that was when Vader wasn't conflicted.

Revolver Ocelot
It was also an Infinity.

((The_Anomaly))
There is no chance in hell Maul would beat Anakin (Vader). Obi-Wan managed to cut Mauls saber in half (which was a potential killing blow) and keep him on the run when he was a padawan. Anakin is WAYYYYYYYY above TPM Obi-Wan....lol Anakin is just below Yoda and Mace in the entire Jedi order in terms of saber combat (and arguably Obi-Wan but its not as cut and dry as with Yoda and Mace)

Vader would tool Maul, then crap on his mangled corpse.

Tarvos
It's all about the setting. Vader could Force Grip him and throw him off the edge if it was that kind of setting... Actually, he could fling Maul into a wall as well, and if he's lucky, knock him out.

Blaxican_Hydra
Yeah vader would WTF force pwn the nig*a wanna be.

Revolver Ocelot
Even considering the Infinity, Vader (according to the Prophets) was emotionally conflicted inside. It's possible Maul was aided by Dark Side prophets.

Anyways, Vader does cut his saber in half. Luckily for Maul, he cuts it at the exact spot where it'll form dual sabers >_>

And let's not forget, Vader does win. He took a hit through the chest and just walked away.

Tarvos
z0mg, t3h du31 s4b3rz!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!1!!!one!!!!11

Anakin had dual sabers, but Dooku wtfpwned him. Asajj had dual sabers, but Anakin bested her.

But I know you're just screwing with me, so yeah.

DiamondBullets
Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Yeah vader would WTF force pwn the nig*a wanna be.

Traya
Meh, Maul' take this. Vader is neither fast enough to withstand him in lightsabre combat, nor is he good enough in the force to actually try and harm Maul with it.

Maul takes this.

hord06
Not good enough in the force?

Traya
He's not going to be able to choke Maul or slam him into a wall with the force like some people have suggested.

hord06
Maul would have no chance if Vader used telekinesis to hurl rubble at him.

Traya
Yep, because the possibility that Maul might just toss the rubble away is too hard to comprehend...

jollyjim311
Vader is way more powerful with the force than Maul. In a saber fight, it would be tough, but Vader would walk out. Physical strength counts for a lot in a saber fight.

Jabba the Hutt
How many times has this been done before?

Janus Marius
1,435,123,232.... and two.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
There is no chance in hell Maul would beat Anakin (Vader). Obi-Wan managed to cut Mauls saber in half (which was a potential killing blow) and keep him on the run when he was a padawan. Anakin is WAYYYYYYYY above TPM Obi-Wan....lol Anakin is just below Yoda and Mace in the entire Jedi order in terms of saber combat (and arguably Obi-Wan but its not as cut and dry as with Yoda and Mace)

Vader would tool Maul, then crap on his mangled corpse.


ABC Argument? Is that the best you can come up with?

Borbarad
Some people should have a look at RoDV or Purge:

Here some people Vader killed / defeated in his suit:
- Jedi Knights Siadem Forte and Iwo Kulka (he duelled both at once and beheaded them both with one strike)
- Jedi Master Roan Shryne
- Jedi Master Bol Chatak
- Jedi Knight Empatojayos Brand (nearly killed - forced to live in a lifesupport suit as seen in DE)
- Jedi Knight Koffi Arana
- Jedi Master Shadday Potkin (who tried to fight him with a cortosis blade)
- Jedi Master Ma'kis'shaalas
- Jedi Master An'ya Kuro (aka the Dark Woman)
- Jedi Padawan Dama Montalvo
- Jedi Master Ranik Solusar
- Jedi Knight Echuu Shen-Jon
- Jedi Knight Aidan Bok

Kill Count:
1 Padawan
6 Knights
6 Masters

He also wounded some people seriously (sometimes fighting 2-8 Jedi at once) and in addition to those people listed above (known Vader kills) he hunted down an unknown amount of Jedi in the Outer Rim and tooled some amounts of other armed people (bunch of Wookie warriors on Kashyyyk, several bounty hunters as well as Black Sun members).

Judging by this fact Vader just has to be faster than he appears in the OT (or at least a better lightsaber combatant) and don't forget that he (according to Lucas) had 80 % of Palpatine's force powers when Maul was just Sidious b*tch. Vader pretty much kicks Mauls sorry ass.

Lightsnake
Let me add a bit to what Nai said: Vader, is mibbed by...eight Jedi at one point. He loses his arm, holding a cortosis blade. A Jedi lunges at him...Vader hurls his own severed arm at him and pierces him through the heart.

And Vader is damn fast and athletic, see: Crimson Empire.

((The_Anomaly))
Oops, I take back my previous statement on the previous page.

I thought this was ROTS not ROTJ

Maul would kick Vader's ass....in a lightsaber duel anyways..

((The_Anomaly))
Originally posted by Antediluvian
ABC Argument? Is that the best you can come up with?

First off I took it back, cause i thought it was Sith Vader not Jedi Vader.
Secondly my point wasn't an A>B>C argument since first off Obi-Wan didn't beat him, he lost.

My point was that an Ataru trained Padawan Kenobi broke Mauls defense in a way that could have potentially killed him, Therefore it cant be that good of defense really. ROTS Vader could easily do the same, one handed and blindfolded...lol...well maybe not blind folded, but pretty damn easily.

However, this is ROTJ Vader so im doubtful that Vader could beat Maul in a lightsaber duel. IF Vader used the force though, Maul's pwn't.

jollyjim311
Kenobi didn't practice Ataru at this point. Vader would beat Maul in a tough saber fight. Vader would own Maul with the force. Vader is simply more powerful.

hord06
I think he actually did utilise ataru at this point.

jollyjim311
Oh well, maybe I was mistaken. You live and learn.

((The_Anomaly))
Obi-wan uses Ataru in TPM, after the death of Qui-gon at the hands of Maul, Kenobi realised that Ataru didn't possess enough defence, which he believed led to Qui-gon's death, at this point Obi went to Form III Soresu, the defensive form. He practiced it for 10 years between TPM and AOTC, and by ROTS he was considered the Soresu master in the whole Jedi order. But Kenobi also had an extensive knowledge of Ataru as he had trained in it for the first 20sh years of him being a padawan, he would still utilize Ataru in his fights. (as he did in ROTS in his duels)

Jonathan Mark
Yea... Obi pwns.

hord06
You can tell in his fight with Maul. He was jumping all over the place.

PurpleSaber
Originally posted by Borbarad
Some people should have a look at RoDV or Purge:

Here some people Vader killed / defeated in his suit:
- Jedi Knights Siadem Forte and Iwo Kulka (he duelled both at once and beheaded them both with one strike)
- Jedi Master Roan Shryne
- Jedi Master Bol Chatak
- Jedi Knight Empatojayos Brand (nearly killed - forced to live in a lifesupport suit as seen in DE)
- Jedi Knight Koffi Arana
- Jedi Master Shadday Potkin (who tried to fight him with a cortosis blade)
- Jedi Master Ma'kis'shaalas
- Jedi Master An'ya Kuro (aka the Dark Woman)
- Jedi Padawan Dama Montalvo
- Jedi Master Ranik Solusar
- Jedi Knight Echuu Shen-Jon
- Jedi Knight Aidan Bok

Kill Count:
1 Padawan
6 Knights
6 Masters

He also wounded some people seriously (sometimes fighting 2-8 Jedi at once) and in addition to those people listed above (known Vader kills) he hunted down an unknown amount of Jedi in the Outer Rim and tooled some amounts of other armed people (bunch of Wookie warriors on Kashyyyk, several bounty hunters as well as Black Sun members).

While all of this is true, you have to admit that RODV is really biased towards Anakin/Vader. It said that Anakin was "the most powerful Jedi that the order had ever known"!

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Borbarad
Some people should have a look at RoDV or Purge:

Here some people Vader killed / defeated in his suit:
- Jedi Knights Siadem Forte and Iwo Kulka (he duelled both at once and beheaded them both with one strike)
- Jedi Master Roan Shryne
- Jedi Master Bol Chatak
- Jedi Knight Empatojayos Brand (nearly killed - forced to live in a lifesupport suit as seen in DE)
- Jedi Knight Koffi Arana
- Jedi Master Shadday Potkin (who tried to fight him with a cortosis blade)
- Jedi Master Ma'kis'shaalas
- Jedi Master An'ya Kuro (aka the Dark Woman)
- Jedi Padawan Dama Montalvo
- Jedi Master Ranik Solusar
- Jedi Knight Echuu Shen-Jon
- Jedi Knight Aidan Bok

Kill Count:
1 Padawan
6 Knights
6 Masters

He also wounded some people seriously (sometimes fighting 2-8 Jedi at once) and in addition to those people listed above (known Vader kills) he hunted down an unknown amount of Jedi in the Outer Rim and tooled some amounts of other armed people (bunch of Wookie warriors on Kashyyyk, several bounty hunters as well as Black Sun members).

Judging by this fact Vader just has to be faster than he appears in the OT (or at least a better lightsaber combatant) and don't forget that he (according to Lucas) had 80 % of Palpatine's force powers when Maul was just Sidious b*tch. Vader pretty much kicks Mauls sorry ass.


Yep.

Hokage Yoda
Originally posted by DePWNZOR
Who wins? Personally, I think Vader but only through Force.
for once I agree

Tarvos
Again, it all depends on the setting. What is the freaking setting?

There's no reason that Vader couldn't throw Maul off a drop and kill him. Dooku was able to do it to Kenobi, I don't see why it wouldn't work with Vader.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Tarvos
Again, it all depends on the setting. What is the freaking setting?

There's no reason that Vader couldn't throw Maul off a drop and kill him. Dooku was able to do it to Kenobi, I don't see why it wouldn't work with Vader.

Vader wins regardless of the setting.

Jonathan Mark
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Vader wins regardless of the setting.

The false god speaks!

Janus Marius
Originally posted by PurpleSaber
While all of this is true, you have to admit that RODV is really biased towards Anakin/Vader. It said that Anakin was "the most powerful Jedi that the order had ever known"!

It does? Talk about movie character fellatio.

DePWNZOR
Vader sucks with a saber, if we are going by the movies.

jollyjim311
Originally posted by DePWNZOR
Vader sucks with a saber, if we are going by the movies.

Not really, we count EU, and your sig is wrong.

Sesse
Then why did Obi1 and Anakin end up in "telekinesis lock" while trying to push eachoter but Obi1 and Maul never tried to do so?

Dienekes
As anyone who read in earlier post knows I believe Vader would kick Mauls sorry rear.

Dienekes
Vader=Smart, Maul=Stupid. In a duel the smarter fighter wins there is the equation. Vader is stronger more skilled and smarter, Maul is a raging psycopath who is extremely fast, weaker, and agile. In a batttle of equal intellegence strength and speed would be dead even, neither is superior however when adding in the smart fighter bit Vader wins.

Many people will say "Oh, how can you say Maul is stupid, how ow how!" and I will answer by giving you three questions. The ship is taking off on Tatooine it's already gone and there is no way to achieve your goal of killing a Queen, what do you do, track them and wait for the oppertune moment using the fact that no one knows you exist to your advantage or blindly attack thus alerting all the jedi in the galaxy that the sith are back. Next point. You are at the Naboo palace your goal is to still kill the Queen. You have all the security cameras in the entire fricken palace working for you and (judging by how fast Maul reacted to the attack on the Palace) you already know an attack is emminent. What do you do, send a vast force to go on the defensive and blast the Queen, while you wait in the shadows until you have an oppertune moment to assassinate the Queen when she is seperated from the jedi. Or do you strike a pose and wait until the jedi open a door so you can have a duel with two people possibly as powerful or moreso than you, while letting your target get away. Final question you killed a jedi master (good job) and the padawan is attacking you, now you are using the force so you are not tired at all. The padawan stupidly charges forward and you attack him. Your opponent is in a rage so he's being sloppy so you take it easy (at least I hope you are a padawan attacking sloppily cuts your weapon in half, you better be taking it easy). He cuts your weapon in half but you still out maneuver him and he falls into a pit but is still in reach. Do you kill him and complete your task or killing the queen. Or do you sit back and play around while your army is loosing outside and a kid in a ship is destroying you're allies command center. I'm hoping that the correct answers to these three questions are obvious.

Now it is possible that Maul could defeat Vader, like in the comic books before Vader you know, got used to wearing an extra 200 pounds werever he goes. But during RotJ Vader was supposed to be a fighting god, though the movies definatly don't show it the mechanics for making the Vader suit were superior to that the created General Grievous. He was supposed to be faster and stronger. However, try having an actor do this while wearing a roughly 75 pound suit before graphics were so advanced where you don't even need a stand in to make something look real and it is really impossible.

What people truly need to learn is that swinging the blades around and looking cool (as they do in the new trilogy) is more often then not stupid leaving your entire body open to a cut while you are attacking odd areas which you have no real chance of hitting. And the jumping and the spinning oh I will be the first to admit that it looks kick ass, and Maul looks truly creepy however in the originals Vader used true Claymore/Broadsword style which kept him completely covered while he toyed with his son since he was never willing to kill him. And judging by Luke's attacks and fighting style there were many, many openings that Vader could have used to rip his son apart in RotJ however he didn't.

My last tally to why Vader would win is simple Maul is easy to read when he is attacking he snears and makes concentrating faces that a good fighter could recognize to their advantage. Try reading a mask...you tell me when that works for you.

PurpleSaber
Originally posted by Janus Marius
It does? Talk about movie character fellatio.
Lol, yeah. It's like a wetdream about Vader.....but in the form of a book.

Motoko Kusanagi
Originally posted by Dienekes
Vader=Smart, Maul=Stupid. In a duel the smarter fighter wins there is the equation. Vader is stronger more skilled and smarter, Maul is a raging psycopath who is extremely fast, weaker, and agile. In a batttle of equal intellegence strength and speed would be dead even, neither is superior however when adding in the smart fighter bit Vader wins.

Maul's stupid? Obviously not since he was smart enough to put mining colonies against each other using his mere stealth, instead of facing them head on - thus securing the planet for the Trade Federation. How, pray tell, is Vader going to be using his supposed "brains" when his head is severed from his body?

Anyways, smart fighter? Look at you're below points, they have nothing to do with fighting "smarter", just Maul's mistakes, that weren't even during battle. The only part that's even relevant would be toying with Obi-Wan when he's doing a cliffhanger.



This proves he's stupid? Everyone makes mistakes, I seem to recall Vader making a few mistakes here and there as well. Obviously it didn't do too much damage anyways.



Obviously not as powerful as Maul, seeing as he holds them both of, knocks them around all over the place. Then, when isolated - he kills Qui-Gon, then beats the shit out of Kenobi.



Albeit, I'll admit that was an idiotic mistake, but still -- in a heated duel, why the hell would he go out and leave a Jedi hanging on edge? It's Sith nature to be overconfident, and cocky. And, obviously taking out the Jedi would provide use, as so they don't interfere with affairs later on.



I know Vader can be agile at times. Crimson Empire points this out, and shows us he's not just a clunky robot. However, I highly doubt he's on the agility level of Maul, both in the movies and EU.



And, I suspect that Luke is on par in saber skills, hell in any skills, with Maul, right? Luke doesn't even know how to attack properly, Maul, however, does.



See above.



Easy to read? I suppose that's why when he made a face, Qui-Gon fell like he had a lightsaber through his torso. Oh wait, he did.

Better question: what's a "sneer" going to tell? That he's pissed?

Maul doesn't need to see Vader's ugly mug. One could point out that he could easily just listen for Vader's heavy panting, giving away his location if Maul wanted to hide in the shadows, or behind an object for a sneak attack.

Janus Marius
Wow, that as an enlightening post.

Dienekes
Watch Maul fighting every swing he makes he grimaces sneers and then stars directly at where he's going to attack, Obi-Wan doesn't do this, Qui-Gon does on and off, and Anakin does on and off. In a true fight being able to read your opponent is a key ability, neccessary to win. Now it is not all about facial features it is about body positioning and stance. Why Vader was so much a threat when he was in suit is he always had only one stance that could not be read wether he was going offensive or defensive. The actor who plays Maul I give kudos to he is an expert at quarterstaff. However the entire style of quarterstaff has a weakness involving positioning and openings invloving torso movement, I hope people can see that when he fights.

One thing I never understood was the panting. Using the force you should never get tired, and mechanics should keep the breathing at a steady pace, a bit confusing and illogical but I will give this as a weakness of Vader.

An interresting thing I always found about Lucas was his constant changing of mind. At one point right after the first movie came up he stated all he wanted Maul to be was a weak apprentice who makes big mistakes and alerts the Jedi to the Sith. After he realized how much everyone liked Maul (and yes he did make a crappy movie better) his opinion of Maul seemingly changed to one of Well he was good I guess I'd better start making a back up story like I did with Boba Fett (Which if you've every read his notes on Boba Fett you will recognize my chagrim on this character also).

Vader, mistakes however you got me stumped. As Anakin Skywalker I can give you a list full of mistakes. After all he was at least as whiny (and stupid) as Luke was.

God knows Lucas and I disagree with a lot of things, most of them actually. One of these things is the inherant ease Luke learns how to duel with a lightsaber. According to Lucas during RotJ Luke was as good a lightsaber duelist as Mace Windu (load of bull in my opinion, Windu has nice good strokes that do not leave openings, while Luke still hasn't learned not to do a spin when he attacks and raise your lightsaber over your head on a crush blow (however Windu does also do this against Palpatine so maybe he wasn't as good as I thought, though this was again probably Lucas trying to look cool)

Now Maul=idiot we look at his abilities outside of the movies. In one comic he gains a completely knew personality, he stays in the shadows shows almost no anger and uses trickery to get what he wants. Bravo! Not only is this contradictory to Mauls nature but I will admit it makes a good story (yes this is the Mining bit). The other time we see him in comics (I only go by pre-PM comics because one thing Lucas has not changed is that Maul DID NOT BECOME RESSURECTED AND FIGHT VADER) (though that was a kick ass comic). Now during Mauls training Palpatine tells his student to go take down the Black Sun, quietly innfiltrating and making sure that it is unlinkable to the Sith. And Maul goes besserk killing everybody. Hm...let me think quietly innfiltrating/berserk. They seem mutually exclusive to me. And the real kicker is how does he kill all the Black Sun leaders, he makes no plans nothing. He ignites his lightsaber and gets hacking. Let me think someone obviously powerful in the darkside, able to kill many in short order and IS USING A LIGHTSABER. Nope impossible to link to the Sith. And the real kicker is when he should have killed the leader of the black sun he started talking too him and listening to him. He didn't read his opponent and apperently didn't even think "Wait this guy is the Godfather of a criminal organization which gained power through trickery, maybe I shouldn't follow him down this long dark path." And then after obvious talking about death Maul even gets nicked by this guy with a knife/saber thing. Good job Maul.

The final bit of infermation before I'm done spewing things that will most likely be ignore is his lightsaber skill. At the end of Mauls training he fought Palapatine using lightsabers and failed miserably. Vader however was a better lightsaber duelist than Palpatine. You people are smart read the last pararaph again and eventually the meaning will come to you.

I apologize that was a bit rude, but o well (there should be a sarcasm button on the keyboard).

And as a coup de Grace on Mauls stupidity I give you a direct quote from Lucas himself "Also, unlike Tyranus and Vader, Sidious used him more as a tool than as an apprentice; he had no cunning, merely an unfailing devotion to his master."

Lightsnake
Oh, wait...this happened before...with Maul being aided by three dark side prophets. Vader killed him.

Motoko Sama
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, wait...this happened before...with Maul being aided by three dark side prophets. Vader killed him.

This happened before? z0mg HE WON IN A NON-CANON STORY, and he had to stab himself! Bravo Vader, you put your life at stake, having to go to such extreme measures to defeat a single opponent.

Yes, I'm sure if this was to be anything like Resurrection, he'd be able to stab himself so precisely.

I don't think Maul would win, however, I just disagree with Maul being an idiot, and whatever non-canon elements are thrown in (i.e. Resurrection).

Lightsnake
No, actually, Ressurection's been alluded to in other areas and is in no way totally non-canon.

Motoko Sama
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, actually, Ressurection's been alluded to in other areas and is in no way totally non-canon.

Care to elaborate with a link? Or perhaps, what other source it was used in?

Lightsnake
The Dark Forces saga. Plus, the nature of the story isn't contradictory, unlike the other Maul ressurection sagas

Motoko Sama
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Dark Forces saga. Plus, the nature of the story isn't contradictory, unlike the other Maul ressurection sagas

And, where in the entire Dark Forces Saga is this at?

Lightsnake
according to Wiki, part 5

Motoko Sama
Originally posted by Lightsnake
according to Wiki, part 5

"According to wiki", you might as well bring something official. If you haven't even read the material in question, why mention it? Wiki isn't official.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Dark_Forces_Saga

Yes, and under "Part 5", I don't see anything about Resurrection in there.

Lightsnake
To quote: References to the prophets of the dark side being on Kalakar when Vader was.

Plus, there were insinuations in Insider as well, apparently.

And once more, it's not a contradictory story

Motoko Sama
Originally posted by Lightsnake
To quote: References to the prophets of the dark side being on Kalakar when Vader was.

Plus, there were insinuations in Insider as well, apparently.

And once more, it's not a contradictory story

It's a "what-if" story, it doesn't have to contradict anything, or it could contradict whatever the hell it wants.

And, what are you quoting? Wikipedia on Resurrection? Because:

There are references to the Prophets of the Dark Side being on Drommund Kalkalar in part 5 of the Dark Forces Saga.

Resurrection was selected as one of Star Wars Insider 83's 20 Most Memorable Moments of the Expanded Universe.

Lightsnake
Proof it's a total what-if? Moreover, it still shows that Vader defeated Maul in a duel...and Maul being aided by the Prophets

Motoko Sama
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof it's a total what-if? Moreover, it still shows that Vader defeated Maul in a duel...and Maul being aided by the Prophets

WTF do you mean "prove it's a total what-if"? It's an Infinity, and nothing else has been brought to suggest everything that happened, did just that, happen. And, again, it's an Infinity, and it holds no water so it doesn't count for shit. I could see Outbid but Never Outgunned being canon (Ailyn Vel), but not this, especially considering that she was featured in an actual canon comic.

Like I said, Vader will defeat Maul, but why are you bringing in non-canon BS into play?

Let me bring forth to you what your precious Wiki source says:

"The following are Tales stories that have had a reference to them published in a canon source. The scope of the reference varies; some, such as Darth Vader: Extinction, have almost their entire story referenced, while others, such as Resurrection, may have no more than a planet name reprinted."

Planet name reprinted. That's it, according to the "non-official third party source on Star Wars"

Lightsnake
Where's the infinities label? It's not on Darth Vader: Extinction or Yaddle's Tale and those were before Ressurection.

Revolver Ocelot
All stories from Issue #20 and before have been retroactively labelled Infinities, placing them outside the canon. Starting with Issue #21, when Tales changed editors, all stories are considered to be within continuity, unless labelled otherwise. Tales stories from before Issue #21 are still considered non-canon, although canon references to the stories can and have been made, which incorporates those elements referenced into official continuity.

On Wiki.

So if there's a later reference of Vader beating Maul, we know it happened. If there isn't... we don't know.

Motoko Sama
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where's the infinities label? It's not on Darth Vader: Extinction or Yaddle's Tale and those were before Ressurection.

See my edit.

Lightsnake
Insider could be taken that way

Motoko Sama
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Insider could be taken that way

You don't even know what the Insider says, Lightsnake. Your arguement came from Wiki.

Lightsnake
The listing of canon references comes from there...I notice you're not getting on Revolver's case for using Wiki, which tends to be pretty reliable

Motoko Sama
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The listing of canon references comes from there...I notice you're not getting on Revolver's case for using Wiki, which tends to be pretty reliable

Why should I be getting on his case? He's not making an argument from Wiki. Either way, it was just a planet name reprinted, which means absolutely zilch for the actual story.

Lightsnake
Look at his post, it's copied and pasted from Wiki

Darth Avis
we all agree that vader wtfpwns maul though, right?

Deicide

Darth Vious
Maul would win, and fairly easily. I don't think there's any way that RotJ Vader could hope to stand up to this kind of speed , let alone surpass it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP9FlSqaqSI&search=ray%20park
(from Time index 20 seconds)

Lightsnake
Vious, you're aware Vader is actually FAST and these two fought before? Vader won.

kamikz
That's Ray Park, not Darth Maul. I could bring up a video of Samuel L Jackson then say that Mace would never keep up with Maul...

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vious, you're aware Vader is actually FAST and these two fought before? Vader won.
In instances where Vader had to win because of SW continuity. Have you actually watched the clip?
Explain to me how Vader ever moved that fast on screen in RotJ.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
That's Ray Park, not Darth Maul. I could bring up a video of Samuel L Jackson then say that Mace would never keep up with Maul...
Oh like that really matters that he's not in makeup and costume. Shadow Hunter clearly goes into the kind of moves and capabilities Maul had that were not seen in TPM (because he had to lose) There, the actor has shown that he clearly has the skills to make Maul perform those moves if it was required of him. As above, where did Vader ever display the ability to move that fast?

Lightsnake
That's Vader moving at normal speed against Luke. In the EU-which is valid, sorry- he moves extremely fast. In fact, he shows himself as a quick and skilled duelist against Luke

And I don't give a **** if Vader 'had' to win. He still won. And no, he could've lost and Palpatine could've saved him. Vader beat Maul before PRE-ROTJ, end of story

kamikz
Edit: To Vious comment.

Yes, that ****ing matters. You can't bring a clip of Ray Park then say that Maul would be able to outspeed Vader because of that. Ray Park isn't Darth Maul. He portraied him in the movie, but Ray Park isn't Darth Maul....... And it doesn't matter anyway....
And stop bitching about the plot necessarity, he lost while he was fighting to the best of his abilities, as did most of the people in star wars. Sure he was unlucky at the end, but that means shit because we actually saw him fight before.....

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's Vader moving at normal speed against Luke. In the EU-which is valid, sorry- he moves extremely fast. In fact, he shows himself as a quick and skilled duelist against Luke

Yes, the EU is valid, but it does not outweigh the movies, and nowhere in the movies did he ever move that fast or block attacks at that speed. It does however, show him getting beaten down by Luke, who was moving way slower than that and had much less accuracy.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

And I don't give a **** if Vader 'had' to win.
You should, because it biasses the fight. Just because one character beats another (because the plot requires them to) it does not mean they could do so again.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
Yes, that ****ing matters. You can't bring a clip of Ray Park then say that Maul would be able to outspeed Vader because of that. Ray Park isn't Darth Maul. He portraied him in the movie, but Ray Park isn't Darth Maul.......
Indeed, Ray Park isn't Darth Maul, but that does nothing to change the statement I made, which you cannot refute. Shadow Hunter showed how fast Maul could move (much faster than TPM) and that clip shows that had such moves been required in the film, then they would have been performable.

Originally posted by kamikz

And stop bitching about the plot necessarity, he lost while he was fighting to the best of his abilities, as did most of the people in star wars. Sure he was unlucky at the end, but that means shit because we actually saw him fight before.....
As I said above: Just because one character beats another (because the plot requires them to) it does not mean they could do so again.

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Yes, the EU is valid, but it does not outweigh the movies, and nowhere in the movies did he ever move that fast or block attacks at that speed. It does however, show him getting beaten down by Luke, who was moving way slower than that and had much less accuracy.


You should, because it biasses the fight. Just because one character beats another (because the plot requires them to) it does not mean they could do so again.


Dude neither Palpatine or Mace showed to be in a speed even half of TPM Kenobi, so they would be outspeeded by him?

Lightsnake
And it doesn't contradict the movies, so the EU is fine. Vader never has a reason to move that fast in the movies. And Luke was going fast. And swinging well enough

I'm afraid Vaderr's beaten Maul before. Vader beat Maul. He got better. And Maul nwas being aided by three prophets. Period. Maul had every advantage and Vader still won.

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Indeed, Ray Park isn't Darth Maul, but that does nothing to change the statement I made, which you cannot refute. Shadow Hunter showed how fast Maul could move (much faster than TPM) and that clip shows that had such moves been required in the film, then they would have been performable.


As I said above: Just because one character beats another (because the plot requires them to) it does not mean they could do so again.


I thought you said that the movies outweight those in your previous post?

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
Dude neither Palpatine or Mace showed to be in a speed even half of TPM Kenobi, so they would be outspeeded by him?
Totally irrelevent, and I'm not even going to answer it. Don't try and drag the thread off topic.
Prove that in RotJ, Vader blocked blows as fast as the ones Ray is performing (and that Shadow Hunter said that he could do)

kamikz
WTF! You say that EU is outweighted by the movies, even in fights. Then when I say that in the movies Palpatine and Mace move slow you say it is irrelivent. WTF!

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And it doesn't contradict the movies, so the EU is fine. Vader never has a reason to move that fast in the movies. And Luke was going fast. And swinging well enough
It does contradict the movie if it's saying a character could do something that they blatantly could not do on screen.
Prove that in RotJ, Vader blocked blows as fast as the ones Ray is performing (and that Shadow Hunter said that he could do)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm afraid Vaderr's beaten Maul before. Vader beat Maul. He got better. And Maul nwas being aided by three prophets. Period. Maul had every advantage and Vader still won.
Again, plot necessity, because Vader had to win. It is a biassed outcome, so does not reflect the true skills of the characters.

Lightsnake
Umm...Vader never has a reason to go full in the movies, does he? So moving faster in other situations means nothing.

Vader still won! and since he won, in universe it means he had more skills! And he only got better

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
I thought you said that the movies outweight those in your previous post?
That's absolutely right. It only contradicts the movie if it's saying a character could do something that they blatantly could not do on screen.
The script of TPM required that Maul lose. It did not require that he won. Had it required him to move as fast as he did in SH, then he would have done so, as it was something the actor protraying him could do.

Lightsnake
So Maul CAN'T move as fast as he did in Shadow Hunte.r Can't have it both ways, hypocrite

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
WTF! You say that EU is outweighted by the movies, even in fights. Then when I say that in the movies Palpatine and Mace move slow you say it is irrelivent. WTF!
What have Mace, Palpatine and Obi-Wan got to do with a fight between Vader and Maul? Absolutely f*ck all. It was an irrelevent point.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
So Maul CAN'T move as fast as he did in Shadow Hunte.r Can't have it both ways, hypocrite
There's nothing to say he can't move as fast as in SH, so I've said nothing hypocritical.

kamikz
Lol. So if this is a fight between two guys, comparing them to two other guys is who are better is irrelivent, because they are just not the same guys? Please, your a hypocrite. You say that movies outweight EU in fights, but then you contradict yourself right after. Heres an example...

"You can't say that Vader can move that fast, he didn't show it in the movies....
But Maul has show in Shadow Hunter that he can move that fast, so in TPM it doesn't matter....."

WTF!!!!

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Umm...Vader never has a reason to go full in the movies, does he? So moving faster in other situations means nothing.
He didn't, but, there's nothing to suggest that he could have done if he wanted to either, seeing how easily Luke overcame him in their final duel. Again, prove that Vader blocked moves that fast onscreen. Fact is, you can't.

Lightsnake
And nothing saying Vader can't move fast as he did elsewhere

Generic Hero
He was good enough to hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
Lol. So if this is a fight between two guys, comparing them to two other guys is who are better is irrelivent, because they are just not the same guys?
Again. What would Palpatine and Mace have to do with a fight between Vader and Maul?
Stop mentioning them. They play no part in this. THEY ARE IRRELEVENT

Originally posted by kamikz
Please, your a hypocrite. You say that movies outweight EU in fights, but then you contradict yourself right after. Heres an example...

"You can't say that Vader can move that fast, he didn't show it in the movies....
But Maul has show in Shadow Hunter that he can move that fast, so in TPM it doesn't matter....."

WTF!!!!

SH showed how fast Maul could move if he had to. TPM did not require him to move that fast because he had to lose. If he had not had to lose, then there is nothing in TPM to contradict SH.
The EU LightSnake is refering to IS contradicted by the movie of RotJ, which shows precicely how fast Vader can (or more accurately, cannot) block. It is a clear case of one EU being contradicted by the movie, and the other not, so I said nothing hypocritical, and do not misquote me, because you just embarass yourself.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And nothing saying Vader can't move fast as he did elsewhere
Seeing how he got beaten down by Luke, I'd say that's pretty conclusive that he couldn't move as fast as the EU portrayed.
Again, prove that he could block that fast in the movie RotJ.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Generic Hero
He was good enough to hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with how fast he was moving in RotJ.

Lightsnake
oooh, but according to you he wasn't fighting seriously in ROTJ, invalid point. Plus, Luke was was moving fast enough. No contradictions.

and Vader still beat Maul.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
oooh, but according to you he wasn't fighting seriously in ROTJ, invalid point. Plus, Luke was was moving fast enough. No contradictions.
Luke was not moving as fast as in that clip. Nowhere near as fast.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and Vader still beat Maul.
Once more, Vader beat Maul in a biassed fight that Vader had to win. How would it look if a comic was written showing Vader getting killed earlier than he did in the actual movies?

Lightsnake
Vader beat Maul. He didn't have to win the fight as it could've been infinities and Palpatine could've interfered. Vader Won.

Vader won.

Vader won.

Deal. With. It

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Again. What would Palpatine and Mace have to do with a fight between Vader and Maul?
Stop mentioning them. They play no part in this. THEY ARE IRRELEVENT



SH showed how fast Maul could move if he had to. TPM did not require him to move that fast because he had to lose. If he had not had to lose, then there is nothing in TPM to contradict SH.
The EU LightSnake is refering to IS contradicted by the movie of RotJ, which shows precicely how fast Vader can (or more accurately, cannot) block. It is a clear case of one EU being contradicted by the movie, and the other not, so I said nothing hypocritical, and do not misquote me, because you just embarass yourself.


No, you just don't get it.....



ROTJ Vader had to loose as well, so.... And I quoted similair to what you had said before, so your embarassing yourself. And no it doesn't contradict it, because Vader has never fought very seriousley in the movies...

Generic Hero
Why not? Vader hunted down the Jedi Knights (the ones good enough to survive Order 66), which means he had the speed to keep up with them and pwn them.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vader beat Maul. He didn't have to win the fight as it could've been infinities and Palpatine could've interfered. Vader Won.

Vader won.

Vader won.

Deal. With. It
Chanting and stamping your feet like a child is not going to prove your point. You still have not provided proof that Vader could block such fast moves in RotJ, so as was revealed in the Vodo Vs Yoda thread, it is clear that you simply refuse to accept the evidence that is provided and refuse to provide any of your own. There is no point wasting my time debating this with you.

Lightsnake
Vader won, Vader won, Vader won. Vader was better. Vader had every disadvantage. And Maul died. You lose. Get over it.
You lose.
You lose.
You lose.
Shut up

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
No, you just don't get it.....



ROTJ Vader had to loose as well, so.... And I quoted similair to what you had said before, so your embarassing yourself. And no it doesn't contradict it, because Vader has never fought very seriousley in the movies...
Listen up, Vader had to lose in RotJ, but that didn't mean he had to get a hand cut off. He could've just had his saber flicked into the shaft. He was clearly overpowered by Luke's attack, which, as mentioned before, was nowhere near as fast as the moves Ray was pulling off with ease (and which Maul was shown to do in SH)
You still have not provided proof that Vader could block such fast moves in RotJ.

Lightsnake
You lose. You nlose. You lose.
Vader beat Maul. Vader beat Maul.

Shut up

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vader won, Vader won, Vader won. Vader was better. Vader had every disadvantage. And Maul died. You lose. Get over it.
You lose.
You lose.
You lose.
Shut up laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing
That's even funnier than your total pwnage in the Vodo Vs Yoda thread! You can't prove your point, so shut up and f*ck off laughing laughing

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Generic Hero
Why not? Vader hunted down the Jedi Knights (the ones good enough to survive Order 66), which means he had the speed to keep up with them and pwn them.
It has nothing to do with it becaue RotJ is a movie You can actually see how fast Luke and Vader were moving when they fought, and you can clearly see that it is nowhere near as fast as Ray was in that clip. To be honest, I think Maul was spinning his saber in TPM almost as fast at times, and certainly still faster than Vader or Luke.

Lightsnake
You lose, you lose, you lose. Shut up.

Vader was declared Palpatine's strongest apprentice. Vader's been shown as slaughtering Jedi. Vader's killed Maul before.

And Yoda is declared as the strongest Jedi ever up to the prequels. So he>Vodo

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You lose, you lose, you lose. Shut up.

Vader was declared Palpatine's strongest apprentice. Vader's been shown as slaughtering Jedi. Vader's killed Maul before.

And Yoda is declared as the strongest Jedi ever up to the prequels. So he>Vodo
laughing laughing laughing
You can't prove your points! What Vader was declared means nothing. Vader has not been shown slaughtering Jedi on screen, so once more, nothing. Vader killed Maul in a comic that is little more than published fan fiction.
Look at RotJ movie. Vader might not have been fighting his hardest, but Luke certainly was, and he was nowhere near that fast. That is a fact.

If you seriously think that Yoda is superior to Vodo, then you're sadly mistaken.
Good Bye

Lightsnake
Vader's been shown slaughtering Jedi. Vader killed Maul.

Yoda is directly called the strongest Jedi period. In the ROTS novelization. And Power of the Jedi.

You lose. You lose, you lose. Shut up

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vader's been shown slaughtering Jedi. Vader killed Maul.

Yoda is directly called the strongest Jedi period. In the ROTS novelization. And Power of the Jedi.

You lose. You lose, you lose. Shut up
Stop chanting like a child and post proof.
Prove that Luke was fighting as fast, or faster than Ray was in the clip, and I'll accept your point. Fact of the matter is you can't because proof does not exist. As with the Vodo Vs Yoda thread, you are beaten because you can't prove your point, and do not have the sense to admit it and let it drop.

Lightsnake
Prove Luke was fast? Have eyes?
ROTS novelization states Yoda was the strongest Jedi master of all time up to that point. Power of the Jedi says the same. Meaning, survey says....he was!

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Listen up, Vader had to lose in RotJ, but that didn't mean he had to get a hand cut off. He could've just had his saber flicked into the shaft. He was clearly overpowered by Luke's attack, which, as mentioned before, was nowhere near as fast as the moves Ray was pulling off with ease (and which Maul was shown to do in SH)
You still have not provided proof that Vader could block such fast moves in RotJ.


The films had poor choreography at this time, if Lucas made them now of course he would make them as they were in the PT. But other sources has shown that Vader with EASE took out several jedi masters at the same time. Other jedi masters are NOT slow, and Maul would certainley not own several jedi masters. THIS DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE MOVIE, GET IT!!!!


Did SH say, "Maul pulled exceptional cool moves like Ray Park did in his show, spinning his saber uselessly around, using it as eyecandy except of fighting smart".....
And this also brings us to my other point. Because Samuel L sucks at sword fighting doesn't mean that Mace does. Shatterpoint describes him as a goddamn good swordsman, but this apparently contradicts the movie in your opinion....

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove Luke was fast?
That wasn't what I said. I said, prove Luke was that fast. Have eyes?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
ROTS novelization states Yoda was the strongest Jedi master of all time up to that point. Power of the Jedi says the same. Meaning, survey says....he was!
I don't recall the movies saying that, and they outweigh the novelizations. Sorry, but Vodo had way more knowledge than Yoda and didn't even need to carry a lightsaber. It's already been proven that Vodo was more powerfull than Yoda in the other thread, so don't even try challenging a debate that's already been settled.

kamikz
No, just because in the films no one said, "Yoda is the greatest" doesn't mean he isn't. It doesn't contradict the movies.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
The films had poor choreography at this time, if Lucas made them now of course he would make them as they were in the PT. But other sources has shown that Vader with EASE took out several jedi masters at the same time. Other jedi masters are NOT slow, and Maul would certainley not own several jedi masters. THIS DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE MOVIE, GET IT!!!!
Rather than breaking out the caps lock, maybe you'd like to listen and learn. on the Feel the Force documentary, Lucas explained that the reasons why the OT duels were not as good as the PT duels was because of the people fighting them:An old man. Someone who was half machine and a half trained boy. Hamill and Prouse trained under a fencing instructor (I think an Olympic medal winner) so they had equal training to that given to Ewan, Hayden and the others, but the fact was the duels were not being fought by Jedi in their prime (or in 'their flower', to use Lucas' exact phrase) so they weren't supposed to be as good.
The 'other sources' you refer to are comics and novelizations. It is impossible to determine speed from a stationary image. Nowhere in RotJ did Vader (or Luke, who was fighting to his full) move as fast as Ray showed he could move without warmup. Maul was never required to use those skills in TPM, but, had he been called to use them (as in SH) then they would have been performable.

Originally posted by kamikz
Did SH say, "Maul pulled exceptional cool moves like Ray Park did in his show, spinning his saber uselessly around, using it as eyecandy except of fighting smart".....
It makes frequent references to Maul spinning his saber to deflect blaster bolts and cut through a wall when he had an RPG fired at him. Had those skills been required in TPM, then Park could have performed them.

Originally posted by kamikz
And this also brings us to my other point. Because Samuel L sucks at sword fighting doesn't mean that Mace does.
Who says Sam sucks at sword fighting? Ever seen 51st State? He uses one of his golf clubs very much like a lightsaber, and WTFpwns a gang of skinheads

Originally posted by kamikz
Shatterpoint describes him as a goddamn good swordsman, but this apparently contradicts the movie in your opinion....
I haven't read Shatterpoint, but do not presume to say what does or does not constitute my opinion. I think that Palpatine's use of a saber is totally obvious, but Maces is supposed to be synchopated and 'illogical' in its movements. You cannot use the same standards to judge Vaapad as you would Makashi, because they are two totally different styles of fightning.

Once more though, the Mace/Sam debate has absolutely nothing to do with Vader Vs Maul, so stop trying to drag the debate off topic.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
No, just because in the films no one said, "Yoda is the greatest" doesn't mean he isn't. It doesn't contradict the movies.
Is Yoda a Holocron keeper?
Did Yoda ever imbue his walking stick with the Force?
Did Vodo even need to carry a lightsaber?

The answer to all those questions is No.
As I said before, the other debate proved that Vodo was the greater Jedi Master, so stop trying to argue a point that has already been proven and decided upon. If you want proof, look in the other thread, it's all there.

kamikz
There has been proof providing that Yoda knew all jedi techniques, was greater than any jedi before him, said to be "the greatest threat that darkness had ever faced" until the time of Luke Skywalker.

Why would Yoda need to, the lightsaber was a better tool for the jedi than the walking stick apparently, since that could break in battle. Yoda's stick was also a gift from the wookiees, I doubt he wanted to ruin it, besides, it is too short to be wielded as a weapon. And you can't say that because Vodo had a staff and Yoda a lightsaber that means that Vodo is better.

You can prove to me that Vodo is greater....

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Prove that Luke was fighting as fast, or faster than Ray was in the clip, and I'll accept your point. Fact of the matter is you can't because proof does not exist. As with the Vodo Vs Yoda thread, you are beaten because you can't prove your point, and do not have the sense to admit it and let it drop.

Not that proof would matter to you, but:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U4uC4UcfiTg&search=carbon%20freezing%20chamber

35-ish seconds into it.

Archangelysses
I'm curious jollyjim,

If the discussion is regarding moving fast with a lightsaber, and skills as a swordsman, how is Luke just jumping high (Albeit, it is done with a certain degree of speed) showing as good a swordsman ability as Maul as such

jollyjim311
Meh, well, Vious is just annoying, and hopefully he'll shut up now.

How does spinning like a fairy help in a lightsaber fight?

kamikz
Lol yeah that's exactly what I thought too. Ray Park is always pushing his staff into his back when he is done, and as Vious said Darth Maul did those exact moves in SH, so he cut his own back off. :P

Darth Vious
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Meh, well, Vious is just annoying, and hopefully he'll shut up now.

How does spinning like a fairy help in a lightsaber fight?
I'm annoying? Why is that, because I can prove my points and you can't?

As Archangle pointed out above, that speedy jump Luke pulled off has absolutely nothing to do with his duelling speed in RotJ.
Spinning like a fairy...
I'd like to see you say that to Ray's face. $20 says you wouldn't have the balls to do so.
As for how it helps...
The speed with which the saber blades are being spun would be fantastic defence against incoming blows or blaster bolts, and used offensively, would be very hard to guard against.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
There has been proof providing that Yoda knew all jedi techniques, was greater than any jedi before him, said to be "the greatest threat that darkness had ever faced" until the time of Luke Skywalker.

Why would Yoda need to, the lightsaber was a better tool for the jedi than the walking stick apparently, since that could break in battle. Yoda's stick was also a gift from the wookiees, I doubt he wanted to ruin it, besides, it is too short to be wielded as a weapon. And you can't say that because Vodo had a staff and Yoda a lightsaber that means that Vodo is better.

You can prove to me that Vodo is greater....
No, there was not proof that he knew 'all' great techniques.
Why would he need to...
Why did Vodo prefer to use a staff than a saber? Yoda's stick would have been long enough to use to deflect blows, and if he was indeed imbuing it with the Force, it wouldn't get ruined.
Also, I'm not going to prove anything to you about Vodo being better, the other thread already does that. I'm not repeating what's already been there, so read it for yourself.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
Lol yeah that's exactly what I thought too. Ray Park is always pushing his staff into his back when he is done, and as Vious said Darth Maul did those exact moves in SH, so he cut his own back off. :P
Don't misquote me. I did not say that Maul did those exact moves I sad that had maul been required to do the moves in SH onscreen then they could have been performed by the actor. Also, I've seen Ray catching his arm with the blade as well, but so what, it was a totaly impromptu demonstration without a proper warm up, I'd like to see you do better. I expectthe same thing happened when they were shooting TPM, and they just never rotoscoped that section (or just used another take) because it would be impossible to notice from a front shot.

kamikz
Yes, there are sources telling us that.
And Yoda might have prefered a lightsaber, nothing wrong with that. And Yoda's stick as I said, was a meditation stick and a gift he got from the wookiees, there is a chance they will be ruined in combat as well.

So you won't post me any proof? The most they said was, "Yoda lost to Sidious, and Sidious is just a politican/sith lord, so Vodo wins". They thought Sidious sucked and Vodo was better than him, they thought all Yoda's accomplishment could be done by Vodo as well, but where is the proof of that? And why the hell do you argue against "greatest threat darkness had ever faced" and "strongest jedi of all time"?

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Don't misquote me. I did not say that Maul did those exact moves I sad that had maul been required to do the moves in SH onscreen then they could have been performed by the actor. Also, I've seen Ray catching his arm with the blade as well, but so what, it was a totaly impromptu demonstration without a proper warm up, I'd like to see you do better. I expectthe same thing happened when they were shooting TPM, and they just never rotoscoped that section (or just used another take) because it would be impossible to notice from a front shot.


The latter thing was a joke, hence the :P. And why drag me into this, I never compared myself to Ray....

So you say, "if they wanted Ray to do that they could have". Well, they didn't. If they wanted Vader to strike so fast that he was invisible they would have, but they didn't.... It is funny how you dispute all other sources telling characters they are better than others, but when it comes to SH you use it as an equal to the movies.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
Yes, there are sources telling us that.
And Yoda might have prefered a lightsaber, nothing wrong with that. And Yoda's stick as I said, was a meditation stick and a gift he got from the wookiees, there is a chance they will be ruined in combat as well.
According to the TPM Visual Dictionary, Yoda's stick was an aide to meditation whilst being chewed. Where is there evidence of Yoda chewing his stick?

Originally posted by kamikz
So you won't post me any proof?
Why should I? The existing thread has already determined who is the greater Jedi. If you don't agree, then fine, don't agree, that opinion has been proven wrong already, and I am not going to waste my time re-proving a point that has already been proven because you refuse to accept it.

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
According to the TPM Visual Dictionary, Yoda's stick was an aide to meditation whilst being chewed. Where is there evidence of Yoda chewing his stick?


Why should I? The existing thread has already determined who is the greater Jedi. If you don't agree, then fine, don't agree, that opinion has been proven wrong already, and I am not going to waste my time re-proving a point that has already been proven because you refuse to accept it.

Do he need to chew it onscreen for it to be canon? And Yoda used it as a walking stick as well, I doubt he wanted to break it, and as I said before, it was a gift, I doubt you would bring out a famous japanese Katana that your grandfather gave to you long ago because you could use it in a battle...


Why do you always take out certain parts and answere them when you don't listen to the rest. I explained how they thought and hence I dind't think of it as proof, but you only answere the, "So you won't give me proof" part....

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
The latter thing was a joke, hence the :P. And why drag me into this, I never compared myself to Ray....
Because you mentioned him catching himself on the blades, suggesting that you think that is a problem, and that you could do better.

Originally posted by kamikz

So you say, "if they wanted Ray to do that they could have". Well, they didn't.
Absolutely.

Originally posted by kamikz
If they wanted Vader to strike so fast that he was invisible they would have, but they didn't....
And do you know why they didn't?? Because as Lucas himself said in a documentary, he never intended for Vader to move that fast. He never intended for Luke to move that fast either.

Originally posted by kamikz
It is funny how you dispute all other sources telling characters they are better than others, but when it comes to SH you use it as an equal to the movies.
EU sources are not as canon as the films. Simple as that. The only reason I've used SH as reference is because it showed Maul using skills that were not called for in TPM, and other than TPM, there is no visual reference of Maul to use as reference. The closest he gets to spinning his saber like that is against Obi-Wan in the reactor room, and that's nowhere near as fast as Ray was doing so. That shows that if Maul had wanted to spin his saber that fast, then he could have done so. He didn't feel the need to do so because he was overconfident and misjudged Obi-Wan's ability.

Archangelysses
Funny how this debate (Travesty of the word using it here) has digressed completely from the point.

Read Dark Lord by Luceno

This clearly states that Vader was no longer as fast as he was when complete (human, not in his life support suit of mechanics). However, it states that he then changed his style of fighting to compensate. His form now was short range to protect to the body and utilising both his force power and the muscle/servomotor strength to batter an enemy.

Effectively becoming like an unstoppable battle tank

kamikz
Edit: @ Vious.
Oh lord, the same thing about Vader. They didn't call in the skills he showed in the comics into the films, it is the same thing. I'm tired of having to go over the same shit, I won't continue this, it is just taking my time, it is completly pointless....

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
Do he need to chew it onscreen for it to be canon?
Preferably. He was meditating in AotC and no stick chewing. He was also meditating in CW and no stick chewing. If there's EU mention of Stick chewing, then feel free to mention it, because either way, there's evidence in the movies of him not chewing it whilst meditating.

Originally posted by kamikz
And Yoda used it as a walking stick as well, I doubt he wanted to break it,
Same goes for Vodo. I doubt he wanted his stick broken either, but that didn't stop him from pussying out when it came to using it.

Originally posted by kamikz
I doubt you would bring out a famous japanese Katana that your grandfather gave to you long ago because you could use it in a battle...
That's where you'd be wrong. I was given one of the prop katana from the Highlander TV series as a birthday present, and although the situation hasn't come up that I had to use it in a fight, I have used it while sparring against another live blade.

Originally posted by kamikz
Why do you always take out certain parts and answere them when you don't listen to the rest. I explained how they thought and hence I dind't think of it as proof, but you only answere the, "So you won't give me proof" part....
Because I didn't care what you thought. You want proof, look in the thread. If you don't like that, too bad, we'#ll have to agree to disagree, because I'm not wasting my time proving a point that has already been proven.

Archangelysses
FOr all of Maul's speed, both Qui Gon and Obi Wan were shown as slightly faster and better.

for proof, Qui gon forced maul back quite successfully. Maul had to stun qui gon to kill him

Kenobi also drove Maul back and WON THE FIGHT

Now, if both of these jedi were faster, then it is entirely fair to state that Vader's new style of fighting, would to at least a 75% certainty negate Mauls speed.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
Edit: @ Vious.
Oh lord, the same thing about Vader. They didn't call in the skills he showed in the comics into the films, it is the same thing. I'm tired of having to go over the same shit, I won't continue this, it is just taking my time, it is completly pointless....
I think you mean you won't continue this because you can't prove the point. In RotJ, Luke was moving nowhere near as fast as Ray could (which is also Maul's potential abilities as no one else portrayed him) Vader was unable to prevent Luke from cutting off his hand. Now, if Vader could not prevent one person (who Lucas admitted was a half-trained boy) cutting his hand off, how would he be able to block the attacks of someone moving at least twice as fast, and with two blades rather than one?

Archangelysses
speed does not always equal force

for example a 10 year old boy swings a blade the same speed as a 25 year old. However, the force they hit at will be different.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Archangelysses
FOr all of Maul's speed, both Qui Gon and Obi Wan were shown as slightly faster and better.
Classic example of Good Guys having to win out over the Bad Guys. Had it been a totally unbiassed fight, I doubt it would have gone as it did.

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Kenobi also drove Maul back and WON THE FIGHT
And once Obi-Wan cut Maul's saber in half, Maul regained all the ground he had first lost, and then succeded in putting Obi-Wan down the shaft. Obi-Wan only won (due to plot necessity) and a flukey move relying on luck. As above, had it been a totally unbiassed fight, I do not think it would have gone as it did.

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Now, if both of these jedi were faster, then it is entirely fair to state that Vader's new style of fighting, would to at least a 75% certainty negate Mauls speed.
Why?
Vader's style in ESB/RotJ will not be as fast as it was in RoDV (which again, is only description, it proves nothing visually) and was not as fast as Maul's.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Archangelysses
speed does not always equal force

for example a 10 year old boy swings a blade the same speed as a 25 year old. However, the force they hit at will be different.
I quite agree. Not that that actually proves anything. Lucas has explained on documentary why the OT duels were slower. RotJ Vader might have more physical strength than Maul (to be honest, I wouldn't like to say either way there) but he didn't have the speed to block Luke's blow that severed his hand, so there's no way he could block blows coming at him twice as fast, and when it comes to a lightsaber, the force with which the blade is swung is not entirely relevent unless the fighters get into a saber lock, for example, Makashi does not generate anywhere near the power of Djem So, but a Makashi practicioner can still overcome the Djem So practicioner with their more precice attacks.

Archangelysses
The point was his hand was severed after repeated blows to the same position to knock the blade out of the way. 4 if i remember correctly

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
I think you mean you won't continue this because you can't prove the point. In RotJ, Luke was moving nowhere near as fast as Ray could (which is also Maul's potential abilities as no one else portrayed him) Vader was unable to prevent Luke from cutting off his hand. Now, if Vader could not prevent one person (who Lucas admitted was a half-trained boy) cutting his hand off, how would he be able to block the attacks of someone moving at least twice as fast, and with two blades rather than one?


WTF! Can you read? I said it was because you never stop, you are stubborn and a hypocrite, don't be an **s hole by assuming such things....

And Samuel L Jackson was the only one who portraied Mace, so he must suck....

GM Nebaris
SLJ portrayed Mace brilliantly in ROTS.

kamikz
Yes, but not as a swordsman, then he sucked balls....

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Archangelysses
The point was his hand was severed after repeated blows to the same position to knock the blade out of the way. 4 if i remember correctly
And those four blows would have occured within half the time had they been delivered by Maul.

Lightsnake
Prove it. Luke was moving no slower than Maul.

And Vader still beat Maul, in the continuity. Therefore, this fight's been done.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by kamikz
WTF! Can you read? I said it was because you never stop, you are stubborn and a hypocrite, don't be an **s hole by assuming such things....

And Samuel L Jackson was the only one who portraied Mace, so he must suck....
I think it's clear that you're the one who can't read. Yes, I am stubborn, because I am not going to change my opinion about something without good cause or proof too. There is no proof that backs up your point, so I see no reason to change my mind.
As for Sam, I repeat my previous question about if you have seen 51st State, where he WTFpwns a gang of skinheads by wielding a golf club very much as he does a lightsaber.

Originally posted by kamikz
Yes, but not as a swordsman, then he sucked balls....
As I said previously, you cannot judge Vaapad by the same standards you would judge Makashi, they are two totally different forms. Makashi is one of grace and precision, Vaapad is one of synchopated attacks and almost illogically connected moves. It's like comparing an apple to an orange, you just can't do it.

Lightsnake
Vious translation: I'm a hypocrite who keeps with stupid comparisons and whenever I'm beat at a point, I simply discredit it.

Vader won. He killed Maul. We getting that? he made up for his loss of speed, get it?
You. Are. Wrong.

kamikz
Originally posted by Darth Vious
I think it's clear that you're the one who can't read. Yes, I am stubborn, because I am not going to change my opinion about something without good cause or proof too. There is no proof that backs up your point, so I see no reason to change my mind.
As for Sam, I repeat my previous question about if you have seen 51st State, where he WTFpwns a gang of skinheads by wielding a golf club very much as he does a lightsaber.


As I said previously, you cannot judge Vaapad by the same standards you would judge Makashi, they are two totally different forms. Makashi is one of grace and precision, Vaapad is one of synchopated attacks and almost illogically connected moves. It's like comparing an apple to an orange, you just can't do it.


Nope, your the one.... And I have provided proof, you just won't take it as such because you don't want to...

Are you seriousley comparing Samuel in ANOTHER movie, winning over some people when he has a golf club, to Mace Windu? That was another film, that was not Samuel himself. Anyone can swing a golf club and kick ass, I've done similar to people wielding a stick....

Where did you get such info on Vaapad? And that doesn't matter, they both were slower than Vader was in ESB, and the kick he performed in the end sucked ass, should be parried easy as hell. The thing is that you shouldn't judge the character after the actor who performed it, Mace and Sidious apparently weren't that slow.

Darth Vious
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove it. Luke was moving no slower than Maul.

Watch the last duel on DVD or find it on You Tube, and then compare it to the link I provided (or even when TPM). Luke was moving his blade much slower.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Vader still beat Maul, in the continuity. Therefore, this fight's been done.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader never fought Maul, that comic isn't canon.
You just can't accept being wrong, can you.

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