Darth Revan and Darth Malak vs ROTS Palpatine and ROTS Yoda

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



DePWNZOR
Setting : The hanger where Yoda fought Dooku. I think Yoda and Palps would take this, as both of them are barely below Revan, but quite a bit better than Malak. Thoughts?

Lightsnake
They're both quite a bit higher than Revan, actually. Proof was in the New Essential Chronology.

Evidence: firstly, so noone can argue the canonicity of this, from Leland Chee's own log and Q/A and I have other links


C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

And the link to the source itsself: http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proof9gs.jpg

Admiral Akbar
I cant read that.

Janus Marius
Are you going to clog every single thread here with your "newfound" links and canon bullshit?

Lightsnake
Apologies if the print's a little small...it's legible on my comp, but only just. To sum it up:
"Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

DePWNZOR
Can u guys get back on topic plz? No Offence

Lightsnake
I wasn't aware I was off topic, actually...said links were just showing Palpatine was the strongest Sith

DePWNZOR
Palpatine might be the most succsesful Sith, but he is by no means the most powerful. Exar Kun could PWN him in a heartbeat, Ragnos would PWN him in an eyeblink. (I think thats faster than a heartbeat, Im not sure tho).


But please, don't turn this thread into an argument about whether your info is N-Canon or something like that.... PLEASE!

Lightsnake
I'm afraid that's simply not true. the Link I just provided calls him the most POWERFUL. That's the end of story.

Palpatine could demolish fleets, raze worlds and drain billions of life. He could feeeze trillions and knew all of what Kun or Ragnos did.

DePWNZOR
OMG.......Please, get out of my thread!!! (or get back on topic)

Lightsnake
I am on topic, this is Palpatine and Yoda vs. Revan and Malak is it not?

That's an ample summary of Palp's abilities, argue for Revan. Provide a link on Revan's power.

Admiral Akbar
Seems hard to realize, but he is on topic. He is providing facts (or opinions) to why he thinks Yoda and Palps would win this fight.

DePWNZOR
Im not very good with links.....Im not a comp whiz at all. Can someone else do so for me (help a poor noob out for pete's sake)

Admiral Akbar
Whats hard about providing links? Search info on google.

Lightsnake
Alright, ignore links: provide evidence. What's Revan done to place himself above Palp? What can he do to defeat the Emperor?

DePWNZOR
All I meant to say was that I don't want this thread to turn into a flame war between Janus and Lightsnake. I want people to focus on the fight.

Lightsnake
I am focusing on the fight, De...I'm providing evidence for my side, alone as I may be. All I did in the start, was give you a link on Palp's power and another link showing the source was EU continuity.

DePWNZOR
Ok. Keep in mind this is ROTS Palps. He lost to MACE in a saber fight. Revan on the other hand, beat Malak with all the power of the Star Forge. I would say that puts him quite a bit above ROTS Palpatine.

Admiral Akbar
All threads turn into flame wars, unless the thread is really bad.

Revolver Ocelot
IMO Malak is the weak link in this fight. Yoda can stall Revan while Sidious beats Malak. Sidious is damn good at manipulating the environment, and there were quite a few things to toss in that garage.

Palpatine and Yoda.

Lightsnake
Yes, he did. But ROTS Palpatine is still extremely powerful. He's been collecting-and draining- artifacts and holocrons for a long time. Did he lose to Mace? Yes. For what reason though? Can we say for sure Revan would beat Mace, described as one of the greatest fighters the Jedi Order had ever produced in over twenty millenia? How can Palp's loss with Anakin's sudden arrival be luck? Luck doesn't exist in SW. Palp is described at that time as a 'great darkness in the force', an 'event horizon' and his powers are already prodigious...in my link, it describes him as the most powerful at the time of ROTS

DePWNZOR
YAY!!! My first good thread!!!

Revolver Ocelot
And let's not forget Palpatine might have lost on purpose. I mean... Anakin's arrival is just too well-timed.

And if Sidious can sense Anakin across the Galaxy, I'm positive he could have sensed him a block away.

Lightsnake
Like I said: There's no such thing as luck. Or a coincidence. Not in Star Wars. KOTOR says it, the movies say it, the books say it

DePWNZOR
Im pretty sure that when ur fighting your not going to be able to "sense" people that well.

Revolver Ocelot
He did when he was fighting Yoda, apparently.

Lightsnake
He'd just finished a battle with Yoda...and if Luke could sense Leia when he was fighting Kueller...

DePWNZOR
Big Meanies....Teaming up on the noob

DePWNZOR
Anyway, I would put Malak on par with Dooku. Revan would beat Yoda before Sidious could beat Malak (or vice versa) and come help Malak with the remaining opponent.

Lightsnake
In more likelihood, Revan'd die very quickly

DePWNZOR
um, how? Revan was described to be the most powerful force user of his time, and in his time Jedi and Sith fought eachother all the time. He could probably PWN Sidious in a lightsaber duel, and is likely just as strong in the force. As for Yoda, he is probably slightly better at sabers. He can beat them both, but not together. Malak would be able to fight either one of the ROTS guys for a while, more than enough time for Revan to kill the other one.

Lightsnake
So? Palp is described as the most powerful of all time and Yoda is described as the strongest foe the darkness had ever known. And Palp is smarter than that...he has more force techniques that will kill someone than you can shake a stake at. He'd just drain Revan of life...or use mortichro to stop his heart, or crush his windpipe. In the force, he far outranks Revan

DePWNZOR
This is ROTS Sidious.....I doubt he has that many techniques,or he would have used them on Yoda and Mace when he was fighting them. And yes, Yoda may have been the strongest foe the darkness ever faced, but only because of his knoledge and wisdom. In actual strenght, I doubt either ROTS people compares to Revan

zephiel7
Phef!

Palpatine was described powerful in what context? A time when there were not nearly as many battles, wars, or dark jedi. Revan was the strongest in a time when many jedi masters and dark jedi existed. Despite all this, he was described as the best force user and duelist of his time. He defeated Malak empowered by the Star Forge (a race and its civilization of force energy). Palpatine was put on his ass by Mace, and stalemated Yoda.

Revan and Malak win.

Lightsnake
Actually it was 'of all time' and 'in history'....and no, Yoda was reknowned for his strength and his fury in face of darkness. 'Strongest'...and an official source calls Palp the Strongest Sith EVER

And Yoda had just as many ways to counter his techniques. Fight it if you want, but this is official word. And please, Revan's time had seen Sith extinction for a millenia until Kun and no living Jedi had fought a Sith mano a mano

zephiel7
The validity of that statement is still obscure.

The narrator describes Palps as the strongest, yet he details next to NOTHING about the ancient Sith Lords. For all we know, it could be the strongest Sith lord in the movies, not necessarily in the EU. It simply would not make sense if otherwise.

Lightsnake
Actually, it's not, as it's C-Canon and thus in the EU continuity, I've proven that by posting the Holocron's stance.

And he doesn't detail next to nothing, he says what we actually know about them. This author worked with KJA to write about the Ancient Sith! He was using almost entirely what KJA wrote in the first Chronology and KJA CREATED the Ancients.

And the Chronology covers the movies AND the EU, don't try that. It's "In history."

DePWNZOR
He isn't even the strongest Sith Lord in the movies. Dooku could take him.


I have revised my opinion. Revan wipes the floor with one of them, while Malak enters a long duel with the otehr one. Then Revan comes to help Malak and together they PWN the ROTS noobie (jk, I acually love ROTS)

Lightsnake
Which is why he's Dooku's MASTER and Dooku FEARS him and his power

You just lost a ton of credibility.

DePWNZOR
Do you ACTUALLY THINK that Sidious could even keep up with Dooku for a MINUTE in a lightsaber duel? I mean, he got tooled by Yoda when they were fighting with sabers, and was forced to resort to Force Powers.Sidious isn't that strong

Lightsnake
He's strong enough to obliterate Dooku in a moment with the force. You keep assuming someone as smart as Sidious will give himself a disadvantage...and Sidious is good with a saber, very good. And with the Force? Dooku dies and dies hard

zephiel7
What I was saying is that it is obscure with respect to the details on the ancient Sith.



Sorry but I need to see a direct statement, showing what Sadow accomplished according to NEC, and how Sidious compares in terms of feats. Put it in context so that it won't appear like we are having featz warz. Scan, do what you will but show me what they say about Sadow, Kressh, and Ragnos. Take your time, I am in no hurry.

Also the strongest sith in history can have many meanings. History dating back to what time? History is constantly revised as new facts are discovered. To Palpatine and the Sith of the PT, the nature of the ancient Sith was still obscure. If Palpatine were stronger than Ragnos and Sadow, he would have demonstrated abilities far greater than simple force lightning in his duels with Mace and Yoda.



Again "in history" is too ambiguous to describe himself as the most powerful, especially when the ancient Sith Lords have demonstrated feats on such a great scale.

Lightsnake
So what it's obscure! There's hardly any info on them as is! According to NEC, Sadow took over the Sith via treachery, lost the Great Hyperspace war and trained Freedon Nadd. That's the rundown.

In history...y'know, this book was only covering from....what, 100,000 years to Yoda vs. Palp at that point? That sure as HELL seems a complete history. And once more: Lucas was making the movies...Ragnos never shwoed a SINGLE ability and all we saw Sadow personally do without his ship was fire a gun and toss a rock with the force. Palpatine has destroyed fleets and razed worlds.

Ok, DE describes him a strongest of all time, I've mentioned that...and in a book of STAR WARS HISTORY DATING BACK TO dozens of millenia even before the Ancient Sith, I think in history can be taken pretty clearly!

DePWNZOR
THIS IS ROTS!!! Get that through your skull....... Not DE Palpatine, ROTS!!!! Revan would tool him, easily. Yoda could take Malak, but not before Revan WTF PWNS Palpatine and comes in to help Malak. Together, they would finish off the muppet and "Once more the Sith rule the galaxy"

Lightsnake
YES! And by ROTS, Dooku was afraid of Palpatine! By that point, Palpatine's power was already incredible. I'm so tired of you praising Revan like this, put up or shut up. Palpatine by this point is called the most powerful sith in history, refute that or concede

Revolver Ocelot
Uh, the Ancient Sith weren't exactly "major" characters in Star Wars. They had a dozen poorly drawn comic books detailing their empire. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have much on them.

zephiel7
Yet Ragnos showed that he had sufficient power in the force to create a scepter that could drain planets, even in the hands of a weakling such as Tavion. This is Tavion, as in the the Sith that noob Kyle Katarn defeated. Ragnos would be far stronger. Sadow was also able to destroy a star, you have to look at TOTJ.

He states that he has a plan for the Republic ships attacking him. With that his eyes start glowing and his amulet crackles with energy. Afterwards you see a gargantuan storm striking the heart of a Star, and the star later explodes. Not enough? Take into account what Exar Kun was able to do with the amulets. Being less powerful than Sadow, he could use the amulets to channel his own force energy. He created blasts of pure dark side energy that tore through Sith Worms, with no apparent cool down. Also he froze an entire senate full of thousands of people. At the hands of Sadow, far more devastation would have ensued.

Kressh and Sadow were nevertheless afraid of dueling Ragnos...even when the Sith Lord was on his death bed. Mind you, Sadow did not fancy Ragnos. Kressh... you know how important power is to a Sith Lord. At any oppurtunity given, he will try and obtain power, even if it means killing his former master. Yet he did not have the nerve to collaborate with Sadow and accomplish this end.



Again, with the knowledge of what the ancient sith could do, history could mean the history of PT and Russan, not the history which refers to KOTOR and TOTJ, which far predates the history of PT. If you wish to argue otherwise, then it would be illogical. The feats of the ancient Sith still outshine Sidious.

Lightsnake
PRove he created it. Prove Kun was less powerful than Sadow. Prove KRessh and Sadow were scared of dueling Ragnos. I provided evidence Kressh didn't because he loved Ragnos. Kressh doted on him, even in death and Sadow just wanted him to die...if Sadow tried ANYTHING, he didn't have the support amongst the Sith like Kressh did...he was a firebrand and disliked heavily.

And no, they really don't, because Sidious's feats were described as the greatest usage of the darkside ever, so...and what could they do ON THEIR OWN? No technology or artifacts? And in history referred to the history of Star Wars and Dark Empire said most powerful OF ALL TIME. STOP IGNORING WHAT I SAY. When did a Sith raise a worl and drain the energy from trillions or destroy a fleet? You're illogical. This is the blind fanboyism I'm talking about. And Palpatine is, in several places declared the most powerful Sith EVER, the only one who ever unbalanced the Force by EXISTING. Seriously, STOP ARGUING THE SEMANTICS.

This is a book on Star Wars history dating back to dozens of millenia before the Sith Empire and covers the empire WITH WHAT KJA, WHO CREATED THE EMPIRE HIMSELF WROTE, and Dan Wallace who worked with KJA declared Palpatine the most powerful IN HISTORY. In history means 'ever', get it?

In dark Empire, the DE sourcebook and Empire's End, Palp's called the strongest Sith ever, not just the NEC

zephiel7
It was Ragnos's SCEPTER. Tavion took it. OF COURSE he created it.



There are a whole bunch of quotes from Kreia, one of which states that they make the Jedi/Dark Jedi of her age look like "children with toys." Yes, this also includes Exar Kun!



Kressh loved Ragnos? What a silly notion. Do you not know that the only thing the Sith value is power? There is no room for love, they cannot comprehend it. It is the mantra of the Sith, power above all else.



Yes, which is exactly why he was able to rally the entire council of Sith Lords to his favour... confused

Lightsnake
Right...just like Sadow created his sword, except Tritos Nal created it. Proof please.

Because KReia is right and was including eXar Kun in that statement, right.

Um...no, Kressh doted on Marka and says he was the most loyal of all Marka's servants. He is clearly shown to have great loyalty for Marka to contrast with Sadow...in fact, he heeds MArka's commands even in death. And you know the Sith were shocked and heartbroken over Simus's death? One Sith called him the noblest of them all and another said "They killed Old Simus...They are MONSTERS!" Mroeover, Ulic Qel-Droma and Anakin didn't 'only love power,' Simus didn't care for power in GaoTS...

And notice I was speaking about Sadow PRIOR to Ragnos's death?

tdtd
He's back!

zephiel7
Ragnos was the greatest Sith alchemist and strongest warrior of his time. Fact. Even if someone else created the scepter, it only boosts his image because it shows that he is capable of so much more.



Deny it if you wish, but she said "force users of our time." Fourty years difference means nothing compared to the gap seperating the ancient Sith.



Except you are ignoring the fact that Ragnos was THE Sith Lord. As apprentices, Sadow and Kressh would be obliged to challenge Ragnos to a duel. Again, the importance of power.


Prove that Kressh was heeding Ragnos out of loyalty, or just due to his own conservative nature. Kressh was always against expansionism, with or without Ragnos' approval.



Simus was not THE lord of the sith at the time. He was just a harmless old advisor by the time of the events of TOTJ. I would not even categorize their attitude towards Simus' death as sorrow. More like anger and frustration

tdtd
Lol, here we go

Lightsnake
I'd like to hear the alchemist and warrior quote proven...

Kreia refers only to Tulak Hord in that quote and his saber skills. Sadow was two thousand years after Hord.

Umm...Kressh and Sadow were lords when Ragnos became Dark Lord, by their laws, they couldn't challenge him after he became the DLoTS

Kressh is seen to be talking about fulfilling Marka's last command and how he was the most loyal to Marka when he's ALONE.

No, it was sorrow. Simus had only a century since being bested and was ancient when he actually lost...they call him the most noble amongst them and call the Republic monsters for 'murdering' him...one says "He...always shared his wisdom...he never failed us."

tdtd
You don't know when Hord existed, so don't pretend. Sadow and Kressh weren't lords, and there were no laws that says you can't challenge a DLOTS. By your logic Ragnos couldn't challenge Simus. You're talking out of your ass lightsnake.

Lightsnake
Ragnos and Simus fought to see who'd become the Dark Lord and when Simus dies, Sadow says he remembers the day on the council when Simus fell to Marka...moreover, Freedon Nadd fled the Sith because another he felt was weaker than him was elected Sith Lord in his place.

Hord's also pretty much been confirmed to have ruled after Dathka Graush as one of the original exiled Jedi or a very recent descendant. Ajunta Pall's assumed to be the first DLotS now

tdtd
Simus was the DLOTS before Ragnos. And no Hord wasn't confirmed nothing, you're getting your shit from answers.com and a bunch of other non canon sources, I know because I read that crap a few days ago. And again you're wrong, Xendor was the first dark jedi. Stop speaking please.

Jonathan Mark
Originally posted by tdtd
Simus was the DLOTS before Ragnos. And no Hord wasn't confirmed nothing, you're getting your shit from answers.com and a bunch of other non canon sources, I know because I read that crap a few days ago. And again you're wrong, Xendor was the first dark jedi. Stop speaking please.

TDTD have you been taking lessons from IKC?

Revolver Ocelot
Xendor was the first DJ. He's rumored to be as old as the Order itself. However, Pall was leading the first group that came into contact with the Sith Species, 7000 BBY.

And Lightsnake said "DlotS" not "Dark Jedi". But then again we're not sure if Pall was even a DLOTS.

Lightsnake
...Xendor was never a Sith. And the NEw Essential Chronology clarified things about Tulak. Ajunta was one of the Exiled Dark Jedi who originally discovered the Sith and it stands to reason he was the first DLOTS

Simus was NEVER stated to have ruled the Sith, where'd you get that info?

tdtd
Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
TDTD have you been taking lessons from IKC?

No because he's not always right, so why would you bring him up? I read and observe..

Lightsnake
By the by: Posted on the last page

Jonathan Mark
Originally posted by tdtd
No because he's not always right, so why would you bring him up? I read and observe..

No I mean how you both are rude.

tdtd
Lightsnake, all of your arguments are easily refutable.

Lightsnake
Then refute them. Provide PROOF Simus was DlotS and the greatest of all Sith wizards/alchemists...provide proof Xendor was a Sith Lord when he lives 18,000 years BEFORE the Empire was formed...please refute the official chronology

tdtd
www.swcomics.com Google all of this crap, you can find canon sources that Xendor was the first, that the first great schism was 25k years before the empire, and Simus was the DLOTS before Ragnos, but he was the greatest Alchemist during his time, not the greatest ever...

Revolver Ocelot
Xendor was not a Dark Lord of the Sith. He was a Dark Jedi, but the title "Dark Lord of Sith" hadn't been conceived until Ajunta Pall landed on Korriban.

Lightsnake
I know he was the first Dark Jedi. Leland Chee said the Legions of Lettow weren't Sith....and when is Simus described as a great alchemist?

tdtd
Google it lightsnake I am not about to look all of this up for you, you are a big boy, you can find it. And that's what I said, Xendor was the FIRST DJ.

Lightsnake
Yes, and he wasn't a Sith Lord, which was what this was about.

You make claims. Back them up. I have

tdtd
No you haven't. You're using outdated material and biased/illogical opinions.

Lightsnake
What outdated material?! a source from 2001, a source from 1997 and a source from late 2005?! And recent quotes from the bigwigs at LFL?

tdtd
Good lord, you act as if your material is more canon than anything else. Show me where it says Palpatine is the most powerful, and where.

Lightsnake
New Essential Chronology, page 84

http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proof9gs.jpg

Revolver Ocelot
Lightsnake said: Ajunta Pall's assumed to be the first DLotS now

tdtd said: And again you're wrong, Xendor was the first dark jedi.

I think it was just a misunderstanding.

tdtd
And this is C-Canon how?

Lightsnake
....because C-canon includes everything after G-canon, including guides and books and RPG sourcebooks?

tdtd
Show me where this is approved or even looked at by GL or LucasArts/LucasFilms, etc...

Lightsnake
....The Essential Chronology? Dan Wallace is a writer at LFL?
http://www.starwars.com/eu/lit/ref/f20051025/index.html

tdtd
LOL. Next thing you're going to do is say the SW databank is canon and Sidious pwned Yoda right? Lol

Revolver Ocelot
That's not the SW Databank.

Lightsnake
You wanted proof it's official...and you know who co-wrote this novel that states Sidious> All Sith? Kevin. J. Anderson.

You know who Kevin is? He CREATED Marka Ragnos. He CREATED Naga Sadow

tdtd
And again, that doesn't make it more canon.. But I suppose by your logic, Luke Skywalker=greatest force user ever because he defeated Sidious.

Lightsnake
Well...he only became a living embodiment of the Force...yeah, he pretty much is the greatest Jedi ever

tdtd
Maybe, but not the greatest force user ever.

Lightsnake
If the Jedi weren't the greatest, that might be true

tdtd
But they weren't jesus. For every great Jedi you have an even more powerful Sith. Common sense should tell you that since the Jedi were bound by Jedi Code, while the Sith were bound by nothing.

Lightsnake
which sorta hindered them...since when does Dark>Light?

Janus Marius
Since always. Or did you miss that every time a jedi padawan or jedi knight embraced the dark side and started WTFpwning jedi masters of old?

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8748/warninglabelsdskad2wp.jpg

Lightsnake
You mean the shining stars of the Order? Who were all defeated?

Janus Marius
Let's go over this for the reading impaired...

Freedan Nadd- Killed his jedi master embracing the dark side.

Juhani- Nearly killed her master embracing the dark side. As a mere padwan, she controlled beasts and corrupted a portion of Dantooine's grove.

Exar Kun- embraced the dark side, obliterated Nadd's spirit, a Sith wyrm, cowed all the force using massassi and WTFpwned Odan Urr and Vodo, while making Sylvar his *****.

Ulic- embraced the dark side and became pretty uber (Though he was already pretty uber).

Malak- embraced the dark side. Casually force pwns jedi with ease.

Dooku- embraced the dark side. Could more or less stalemate Yoda without being overcome. Could take out Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time.

Skidious- embraced the dark side. Could defeat Yoda in combat despite being far younger.

....
...

...

Did you READ the material?

tdtd
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Since always. Or did you miss that every time a jedi padawan or jedi knight embraced the dark side and started WTFpwning jedi masters of old?

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8748/warninglabelsdskad2wp.jpg

Lightsnake
Nadd killed a master in a sparring accident.

Juhani: The entire thing was a test.

Exar Kun: Special case, still got pwned at the end and later on, tricked by padawans.

Ulic: Miss the part where he got banned from the Force and went into a fit of crying and that whole exile thing?

Dooku: Knew he was going to lose. Ran away. That's a loss


You know what all of those guys have in common? The Jedi beat them at some point or another

tdtd
You know nothing on Nadd.. I don't even know who Juhani was... Exar Kun was special? Lol... I'm not going to continue.

Lightsnake
What else's to know about Nadd? "Got mad, ran off, joined the Sith....got mad again, ran off, woke up an ancient Naga Sadow...got mad, killed him, established as dictator on Onderon. Died."

tdtd
Ok so what do their unorthodox methods have anything to do with their power? Oh wait, they don't.

Lightsnake
What're you trying to say?

tdtd
"Oh boohoo the sith ran away they're cowards blah blah". Yes lightsnake they are bad guys, but because they have no boundaries, their powers are limitless.

Lightsnake
....what?

tdtd
exactly, go to sleep.

DePWNZOR
Wow....Just Wow. You have gone SO FREAKIN FAR AWAY FROM MY ORIGINAL POST, it's not even funny. Is there ANY chance you guys could stop flaming eachother, talking about Ancient Sith who have no relevence in this topic, and TALK ABOUT THE ACTUAL VS MATCH!! (sorry if I seem a bit rude, but I get tired of seeing every thread turn into a debate about ancient sith, and a flamewar)

tdtd
What's there to talk about? Revan>Yoda.. And Malak would probably take Palpatine in a saber fight, so the KOTOR duo win.

Lightsnake
Yoda: Described as the strongest foe the darkness had ever known...and the darkness has more than Revan to offer.

TdTD, check the Literature board...your semantics are being battered

DePWNZOR
Good, at least your back on topic. I think it's pathetic how you guys talked for 2 pages about something that wasn't even remotely close to the point of the thread. Revan>Yoda imo, but Sidious>Malak. It would probably turn into a fight between Revan and Sidious, and Revan would come out on top. Keep in mind this is ROTS Sidious, so your DE thing about how he was the most powerful Sith Lord ever is null and void.

Lightsnake
Oh, come on, how the heck does Revan>Yoda now? Yoda is described as one of the mightiest Jedi Masters in all of history and the strongest enemy of the darkness, that it had EVER known.

And ROTS Sidious is described as the mightiest Sith ever, so that DE semantic is null

Traya
No, but Lightsnake still holds the absurd notion that DE and ROTS Sidious are the same in terms of power.

Lightsnake
Actually, no, DE Sidious improves in power a lot and considering he was already the strongest

tdtd
Lightsnake, your logic involves NEC=more canon than everything. Obviously you're delusional so I'll stop arguing with you.

Lightsnake
Provide a scan or quote to prove your argument to back it up. I have

tdtd
Get the comic book or go to swcomics.. At least attempt to research everything, not only NEC.

Lightsnake
I did. Don't see anything disproving it.

tdtd
Disproving what? THat Ragnos was the most powerful of the most powerful, or THE Dark Lord?

Lightsnake
That Palpatine was the most powerful, Ushgarak made a nice post dealing with the Ragnos issue

tdtd
Except Palpatine wasn't the most powerful, as he was nearly bested by Yoda and then pwned by Luke.. Then a FAR MORE powerful Luke said he needed the WHOLE academy to just ATTEMPT to destroy a living Ragnos, so with that simple logic, Ragnos>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sidious.

Lightsnake
Umm...Luke said that about stopping Ragnos's ressurection which included a massive army of cultists....and Luke was a living embodiment of the light at the point he beat Palpatine and that was written in a book. Just like Ganner and Jacen

tdtd
And a living embodiment of the force has anything to do with a 1 on 1 fight? The death of Ragnos was felt through the entire galaxy and woke Odan Urr up.

Lightsnake
Well...if you're channeling pure omnipotence..

And no, Odan-Urr was having nightmares about the Sith empire, quite a bit after Ragnos died...Ragnos didn't have anything to do with that

tdtd
Actually no, if you look at the comic, the passing of Ragnos woke him up.

hord06
Luke had no clue how powerful Ragnos would be. He was just being cautious. BTW Lightsnake does Pwned61 still post on these forums.

Lightsnake
I have GaoTS...Ragnos is never mentioned. He's having the nightmare at the time Ragnos is appearing as a ghost

tdtd
No, he's PASSING.. As he disappears Odan Urr wakes up with that image.. This isn't SW according to lightsnake, look at the scans.

Lightsnake
*Opens GA* No...Ragnos is dead when the story opens and panel after he finishes with Ludo and Naga...

"Koros, n the Palace of empress Teta- a JEdi awakes from nightmares."

Odan: The force is trembling...images...what have I forseen?

And in Fall, he mentions he had nightmares of the Sith Empire...Ragnos is never mentioned

tdtd
Look at the scan when he wakes up, it's the passing of Ragnos. Don't let your fanboyism get in the way of reality.

Lightsnake
Ragnos is dead at the time, damn it! All we see is Ragnos's ghost as it vanishes to its tomb!

Antediluvian
When Odan Urr was having these visions, Marka Ragnos was dead.

tdtd
You're missing the point, his passing as a ghost for a millennia causes a disturbance in the force and wakes up Odan Urr.

Lightsnake
...how can you 'pass as a ghost?' All he did was go to chill in his tomb

tdtd
Passing as in he's gone for a 1,000 years, look at the scans jesus, Odan Urr wakes up to the nightmare of Ragnos AND the sith empire.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by tdtd
You're missing the point, his passing as a ghost for a millennia causes a disturbance in the force and wakes up Odan Urr.

You just changed your point because you knew you were losing the argument.


What an uneffective method!

Lightsnake
Ragnos is never mentioned. Was Obi-wan Kenobi going into exile felt too? He was 'gone' for two decades

hord06
Odun Urr witnessed what he did because it was a turning point in the history of the ancient sith.

tdtd
Originally posted by Antediluvian
You just changed your point because you knew you were losing the argument.


What an uneffective method!

Uh what? Here's a hint.
1. Think
2. Type
3. Repeat

The "passing of Ragnos" means his spirit was gone for a millennia which is exactly what I've said and proven. Stop embarassing yourself troll. And Numan, what the hell are you talking about in regards to the "turning point". It was a disturbance in the force, look at the damn scans, why the hell does Marka Ragnos have to be mentioned when you see his ghost passing with those little white lines and then Odan Urr waking up.

Lightsnake
And he never mentions Ragnos...hell, he never mentions a dead guy or a single, individual Sith

Antediluvian
Originally posted by tdtd
Uh what? Here's a hint.
1. Think
2. Type
3. Repeat

The "passing of Ragnos" means his spirit was gone for a millennia which is exactly what I've said and proven. Stop embarassing yourself troll. And Numan, what the hell are you talking about in regards to the "turning point". It was a disturbance in the force, look at the damn scans, why the hell does Marka Ragnos have to be mentioned when you see his ghost passing with those little white lines and then Odan Urr waking up.


You use the same old shit everytime. "stop embarassing urself lolz! even thou I just changed my argument completely, you're embarassing urself! lolz!"

Odan Urr woke up because his visions had ended. He had foreseen what was happening.

The Comic:

http://www.swcomics.com/Old_Republic_Era_c.php?i=22&f=3&name=The_Golden_Age_of_the_Sith_2_of_5

And the definition of Foreseen:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=foreseen


This didn't happen because Marka was causing disturbances, or else there would have been other Jedi who sensed the disturbance.


Odan Urr specifically says he had "A Nightmare, A Preminition."

Nowhere does he mention any distrubances in the force.


Maybe you should sit down and shut up before YOU embarass YOURSELF.

Lightsnake
Ye Gods, me and Sorgoa re arguing for the same thing

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ye Gods, me and Sorgoa re arguing for the same thing

You can't always disagree! stick out tongue

Lightsnake
Thanks for that site by the way, man...it's been years since I read the Freedon Nadd uprising. Can we form some kind of truce?

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Thanks for that site by the way, man...it's been years since I read the Freedon Nadd uprising. Can we form some kind of truce?


A truce? I'm going to have to think about that one!



stick out tongue

Lightsnake
You may profit by this....or be destroyed... *Image flickers*

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You may profit by this....or be destroyed... *Image flickers*


Actually, That predicament you just presented is more likely in my favor.

Lightsnake
Out of curiosity, is it just me or is the Freedon Nadd Uprising artwork...really bad?

Traya
No, it's not just you.

Lightsnake
Thought not. Finish reading the thread btw, Sorgo?

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Thought not. Finish reading the thread btw, Sorgo?


Hmm . . . It seems your source can be put into question because of it's Canon Status.

Lightsnake
That would be so except for the following points.

Due to the C-canon policy, that source ranks as much with comics and books, they're all c-canon and nothing seperates them. Inconsistencies are dealt with case by case.

That source overwrote several former sources, including the Sith Empire's Age, Arden Lyn's fate, Xendor's fate, among other things. Leland Chee clarified the first one and the others have since been backed up.

This source is also, in adition to being a guide-Vader, the Ultimate Guide itself introduced a lot to the storyline, such as Darth Ruin and more on Sith history during the Thousand year Darkness- it IS a book and not a sourcebook. Sources can be retconned, which is different than overwriting. LFL does this in some cases and as there has been no retraction...

DePWNZOR
Wow. Once again you guys are talking about Ragnos for some reason............

Jonathan Mark
I'm beginning to hate the word canon.

DePWNZOR
Me 2

darthsith19
The Sith win. Malak is about even with Sidious. Revan beats Yoda, then Revan and Malak pwn Sidious.

Faunus
The Jedi / Sith win. Yoda is about even with Revan. Sidious beats Malak, then Sidious and Yoda pwn Malak.

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