Mace and Yoda vs. Count Dooku and Sidious(ROTS)

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Hokage Yoda
I have know clue.

Revolver Ocelot
Done billions of times. I say the Sith win.

Hokage Yoda
I say Yodas team

zephiel7
Yah, more likely that the Sith win. Very close match though. Since they have displayed almost EXACT quality in their ability to duel.

tdtd
Yoda is the greatest lightsaber duelist out of these 4, so you have him against Dooku, he will eventually win, while Mace takes out Sidious. Switch them around and you'll have a longer match but the Jedi will still win.

Revolver Ocelot
Except this time Sidious won't fake having no energy reserves.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by tdtd
Yoda is the greatest lightsaber duelist out of these 4, so you have him against Dooku, he will eventually win, while Mace takes out Sidious. Switch them around and you'll have a longer match but the Jedi will still win.

The sith would win. If it was Dooku vs Yoda and Mace vs Sidious I think that Sids would win. He was holding back in ROTS and could probably pull off a victory against Mace. Then if Dooku could hold off Yoda long enough, which he can, it would be two on one against Yoda and Yoda loses.
If it was the other way round the sith beat there opponents. It is proven that Sids can beat Yoda and Mace and Dooku are on par. So it would end up two on one against Mace and Mace loses.

tdtd
LOL, yea the holding back theory. Get a clue seriously. He was overpowered as was proven in the movies and in GL commentary.. The Jedi win.

hord06
Dude I am a big Windu fanboy, but I have to agree that Sidious was holding back. All the evidence points that way.

Grand_Moff_Gav
I'd say Yoda and Mace. Mace could wip Dooku unless he used his magic to build an army of orcs.

Rampant ox
What the holy hell do you mean Mace would beat Dooku!! Evidence please for this outrageous claim!

hord06
How is it a outrageous claim?

Rampant ox
When has there been any evidence that Dooku has ever been 'whipped' by Mace. I know it has says Dooku has lost to Mace but that was years back and a lot has changed since then.Ive had this conversation in a previous thread and we concluded that Dooku would win 55-60% of the time unless Mace decides to use the darkside in which case they will be completely even.

hord06
Sorry, I didn't see the term 'whipped'.

Council#13
Yes, this has been done a few too many times. It really depends who takes on who. I mean, in the past Dooku has defeated Mace Windu. That might change now that Dooku is an old man (because we have no other information on who is the better duelist, many members of KMC have used this as an argument that Dooku is superior to Mace). Yoda has forced Dooku to flee (AOTC) before, but has been defeated by Sidious in a force duel.

So this is basically who can defeat who:

Yoda > Dooku > Mace > Sidious > Yoda > Dooku > Mace..... etc.

Basically it all depends on who takes on who. Should Dooku face off against Yoda leaving Mace to Sidious, the Sith will loose. However, if Sidious fights Yoda, leaving Mace to Dooku, the Jedi will loose.

kamikz
Originally posted by Rampant ox
When has there been any evidence that Dooku has ever been 'whipped' by Mace. I know it has says Dooku has lost to Mace but that was years back and a lot has changed since then.Ive had this conversation in a previous thread and we concluded that Dooku would win 55-60% of the time unless Mace decides to use the darkside in which case they will be completely even.

Actually, it was Dooku that had defeated Mace in the past, not vice versa...

kingkman
Dooku would tool Mace.

tdtd
Since when did Sidious beat Yoda in a force battle? And do you have any evidence to show that DOoku beat Mace before he developed Vaapad because I believe he beat him when they were young.

tdtd
Since when did Sidious beat Yoda in a force battle? And do you have any evidence to show that DOoku beat Mace before he developed Vaapad because I believe he beat him when they were young.

Grand_Moff_Gav
Dooku is an old man who only appears in the saga to hopefully catch a glimpse of Peter Cushion!

Seriously though

Mace got the better of Palpatine END OF (said by GL and his authority is above any fans)

He could easily defeat his apprentice, well maybe not easily, but you get my meaning!

tdtd
Since when did Sidious beat Yoda in a force battle? And do you have any evidence to show that DOoku beat Mace before he developed Vaapad because I believe he beat him when they were young.

darthsith19
I say the Jedi. Yoda'd beat Sidious 5/10 times but Mace'd beat Dooku 6/10 times, IMO, which gives the Jedi a slight edge. I say the Jedi win this 55/100 times.

tdtd
Your odds are based on nothing darthsith.. But ok..

darthsith19
Originally posted by tdtd
Your odds are based on nothing darthsith.. But ok..
Anakin beat Dooku so Mace could probably do it. Yoda states that those two are even, in Dark Rendezvous so either way that would be a hell of a battle. In ROTS Sidious beat Yoda but Yoda's probably slightly better than Sidious is at dueling.


There, happy?

Tarvos
Depends. Dooku vs Mace would be a good match, and Sidious vs Mace would turn out with Mace.

You say evidence points towards Sidious not going all out. Could you provide this evidence? If anything, Mace wasn't going all out. He was trying to disarm him the entire time until the end. Mace > Sidious in dueling. Sidious was so overpowered by Yoda in dueling that he quickly relied on Sith Lightning. Sidious only realized Mace was the better duelist at the end of the fight, when he gets disarmed. If Dooku is against Yoda, Yoda wins after a bit, so the Jedi would win this. If it's Yoda vs Sidious, Mace vs Dooku, then that would be a bit more difficult to decide.

Revolver Ocelot
There is alot of things to hint Palpatine was faking.

- Palpatine can sense Anakin across the galaxy. No doubt he can sense him across the street. No doubt he can sense him coming. A golden opportunity for the future Emperor.

- Palpatine is disarmed at the exact moment Anakin enters the room.

- Anakin's "thoughts" before the fight. They lead me believe that Palpatine is talking to Anakin telepathically, because Palpatine never outright states those exact words.

- Palpatine needs Anakin to commit an act of evil to secure his transition to the Dark side. Disarming Mace fit in nicely. Had Anakin walked in with 4 Jedi corpses on the ground, he wouldn't be emotionally trialed and would not have fell to the Dark Side.

- Palpatine blasting Mace out the window, smiling, after "I'm too weak!". Then getting up as if nothing had happened.

- Palpatine moves oddly slow in that duel. Compare how he fights with Yoda to how he fights with Mace. He fights far faster in the former.

- Palpatine was Dooku's master and beat Yoda. He should have been able to beat Mace as well.

And Tarvos, remember that Jedi are not trained to kill their opponents, but to disarm them.

But apparently, GL says otherwise though he's never been crystal clear on the situation. GL's been mentally unwell as of late stick out tongue

Illustrious
He sure didn't sense Vader throwing him down a reactor core. His futuresight obviously isn't infallible, I doubt he'd place his own life for it.



I actually seem to recall Mace kicking it out of his hand earlier, he is already on all fours against the corner of his big window when Anakin walks in.



Perhaps, or perhaps not. You'd need better support that Palpatine sent him the message in the first place.



This is irrelevant. He could have him do the deed whether or not he truly lost to Mace. In fact, it seems more likely that he really did lose to Mace, and then turned that bad situation into a more favorable one.



See above. Palpatine's post-battle antics have no relevance on whether or not he really won the fight. He could fake after Anakin walks into the room.



By this logic, because Mace moved slow, Obi-Wan is better than him. The choreography between Yoda and Mace will obviously be different, simply because of two entirely different fighting styles. Mace is much more methodical than Yoda.



Not necessarily, to be honest, it was never clarified in canon that Mace's saber skills were inferior to Yoda. And besides, that much is irrelevant. Saber fighting, like any other versus, is about matchups, it's entirely possible Mace matches up well against Sidious.

Revolver Ocelot
He sure didn't sense Vader throwing him down a reactor core. His futuresight obviously isn't infallible, I doubt he'd place his own life for it.

I was mainly referring to location instead of intention. Not really his precognition, but his ability to sense Anakin's location. Vader was standing right next to him and made a suddent move...

I actually seem to recall Mace kicking it out of his hand earlier, he is already on all fours against the corner of his big window when Anakin walks in.

Ah, you're correct. I was 5 seconds off. Regardless, the timing sure as hell seems fishy.

This is irrelevant. He could have him do the deed whether or not he truly lost to Mace. In fact, it seems more likely that he really did lose to Mace, and then turned that bad situation into a more favorable one.

I wouldn't say that at all. Anakin attacked Mace because Padme was in direct jeopardy. In a saber duel the outcome is unclear and Anakin may not have been fearing for Palpatine's (Padme's) life. Especially since a few frames earlier he was not confident in Mace's ability to defeat the Chancelor. By having a sabre pointed at the old man's throat, Anakin is put in a desperate situation where Padme will die unless he does something. This causes him a "spur of the moment" type thing and bang! Palpy has a new apprentice.

Had Mace died before Anakin arrived, Anakin would not have been put in this situation, and would not have fallen to the dark side yet.

Not necessarily, to be honest, it was never clarified in canon that Mace's saber skills were inferior to Yoda. And besides, that much is irrelevant. Saber fighting, like any other versus, is about matchups, it's entirely possible Mace matches up well against Sidious.

I remember Mace admitting inferiority to Yoda in Dark Rendezvous, and to Dooku in Shatterpoint. Although the former may have only been him being nice.

By this logic, because Mace moved slow, Obi-Wan is better than him. The choreography between Yoda and Mace will obviously be different, simply because of two entirely different fighting styles. Mace is much more methodical than Yoda.

Maybe... but Mace seems to be one for precision and strength over speed. We know Palpatine is deadly precise as well (killing 3 Council Members in 10 seconds)... It just feels slow in that fight.

It also seems odd how he can lose to Mace after destroying three other members in seconds. There must have been some huge power gaps in the Council. Just seems odd.

tdtd
Illustrious is right, to say Palpatine faked the fight is ridiculous. He underestimated Mace and got overpowered, simple as that.

Janus Marius
One thing I'd like to point out- in ROTJ, Vader spends two minutes looking back and forth, over at Sidious, then leans back... and then leans forward and has time to grab the guy with one arm and a stump before Sidious gets the hint?

Please.

tdtd
LOL

Revolver Ocelot
Sidious was concentrating on torturing Luke. He was overconfident and didn't think Vader would betray him, even after ordering to kill the man.

tdtd
Right but if he had the gift of foresight that you so claim in ROTS, he would have had no problem sensing it. In reality, Palpatine didn't fake the fight, the only thing he did was play the victim when his initial lightning strike didn't work.

Revolver Ocelot
I never mentioned foresight. Palpatine could simply feel Anakin's location.

tdtd
That's what I meant, your theory loses it's logic in ROTJ..

Revolver Ocelot
Why? Because he couldn't sense a single step and Vader turning his head when he wasn't expecting Vader to do anything?

Palpatine knew Vader was beside him. So what? He didn't think he'd try anything.

Sesse
As blind as Mace was to Anakins change of heart.

Janus Marius
I don't get how Palpatine is so "in tune" with Anakin that he can feel his pain across the galaxy (Which, Yoda could do too), but he couldn't sense the conflicting heart right beside him, even after Luke had made a very loud and echoing comment about it early in the fight. While it would be nice to think that Palpatine was so hardass that he could fight Mace Windu and listen to his force senses at the same time, it appears he can't even use lightning without getting overly distracted. How does this prove your point?

tdtd
It doesn't lol it's contradictory to his point.

Revolver Ocelot
I don't get how Palpatine is so "in tune" with Anakin that he can feel his pain across the galaxy (Which, Yoda could do too), but he couldn't sense the conflicting heart right beside him, even after Luke had made a very loud and echoing comment about it early in the fight.

Perhaps, but perhaps he can only sense physical pain? Physical movement... Or perhaps he did feel the confliction in Vader's heart, but was so overconfident and careless that he'd rather torture Luke than do anything about it. Maybe he didn't think Vader would have the balls to do anything, cuz the lightning would destroy him too.

While it would be nice to think that Palpatine was so hardass that he could fight Mace Windu and listen to his force senses at the same time, it appears he can't even use lightning without getting overly distracted. How does this prove your point?

He managed to do it while fighting Yoda. Again, sensing emotions =/= sensing location.

tdtd
No, he was just a better and smarter tactician than Yoder, and he almost got his ass kicked too, so it had nothing to do with sensing anything. He was afraid of Yoder otherwise he wouldn't have tried to run.

Revolver Ocelot
No, I meant he sensed Anakin's location either DURING the fight with Yoda or right after.

tdtd
Ok and? And Yoder sensed Anakin's location when he was killing everybody in the Jedi temple.. What's your point?

Borbarad
I really don't know what some people are debating here...

Mace > Sidious
Unless you want to contradict Lucas himself "Mace overpowered Sidious". Period.

Yoda > Sidious
Yoda was superior to Windu which Mace stated himself several times in Shatterpoint and in ROTS he just lost because of Sidious taking the higher ground. On equal ground (and since I didn't see an location given I assume this is equal ground) Yoda would defeat Sidious.

Mace = Dooku
Pretty much established in every way.

Yoda > Dooku
See above + he made Dooku run in AotC.

So...looking at the possible set-ups for the match:

Mace vs Dooku
Yoda vs Sidious

Yoda takes Sidious, Dooku and Mace stalemate than Yoda and Mace kill Dooku.

Mace vs Sidious
Yoda vs Dooku.

Mace takes Sidious, Yoda takes Dooku - maybe this will again result in 2 Jedi vs one of both Sith Lords.

Conclusion: Jedi win.

tdtd
Agreed

Rampant ox
I agree if it was Dooku vs Yoda and Mace vs Sids the jedi would win.(my personal opinion is that Dooku can beat Yoda but my opinion is irrelevant). Mace would beat Sids again and apparently Yoda would beat Dooku.
I disagree however on the other match up.Yoda lost to Sidious. Higher ground was not important because Sids bet Yoda to it, which means he is better. There is no evidence to say that Yoda would win on equal ground either. Mace and Dooku are completely equal with Dooku possibly having the edge because of the darkside and his Makashi style. This would mean that the sith win.

DarkNemesis
Revolver Ocelot, two things I'd like to point out.

About the timing thing, in AOTC, Dooku disarmed Obi-Wan right when Anakin recovered, and Dooku sliced off Anakin's arm seconds before Yoda arrived at the hanger. Was all that considered "fishy"?

And Mace admitting inferiority to Yoda, I think he was talking about force powers, and where in Shatterpoint does Mace say he's inferior to Dooku?

Janus Marius
Interesting first point especially.

tdtd
Stop saying Yoda lost, you make it seem as though Sidious is more powerful, when that isn't the case.

Revolver Ocelot
Not at all. Nothing's stopping Palpatine from manipulating the environment and blasting Yoda 200 feet down, again. If the setting is say, the middle of the desert, then Yoda will defeat him. But environment counts for alot, esspecially when Palpatine is involved.

And Mace admitting inferiority to Yoda, I think he was talking about force powers

Perhaps. He admits being the inferior "warrior". And i'll go check Shatterpoint.

Rampant ox
But Yoda did lose. He got out classed by Sidious to the point he had to run away. If there was any chance Yoda could have still won he would have taken it knowing that the freedom of the galaxy could be restored if he defeated Sids. There is no evidence to prove that Yoda was going to beat Sidious anyway.

tdtd
Originally posted by Rampant ox
But Yoda did lose. He got out classed by Sidious to the point he had to run away. If there was any chance Yoda could have still won he would have taken it knowing that the freedom of the galaxy could be restored if he defeated Sids. There is no evidence to prove that Yoda was going to beat Sidious anyway.

Lets be clear on this. Sidious didn't force bomb him 200 feet, they force pushed each other at the end and Yoda fell. Yes Sidious was more fortunate than him but in no way is he better than Yoda. It was virtually a stalemate with Sidious having the higher ground, so imagine who would win if it was even.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by tdtd
Lets be clear on this. Sidious didn't force bomb him 200 feet, they force pushed each other at the end and Yoda fell. Yes Sidious was more fortunate than him but in no way is he better than Yoda. It was virtually a stalemate with Sidious having the higher ground, so imagine who would win if it was even.

Because Yoda fell and Sids didnt would imply that Sidious has the stronger force abilities. And from what I was watching it was no stalemate. Yoda got pwned. And after the battle Sids even got troops to find Yoda so he could have another go at him. There is no evidence that yoda was winning or would win.

Motoko Kusanagi
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Because Yoda fell and Sids didnt would imply that Sidious has the stronger force abilities.

So, because Sidious had a better positioning than Yoda, he's stronger? How does that make sense. Explain please.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Motoko Kusanagi
So, because Sidious had a better positioning than Yoda, he's stronger? How does that make sense. Explain please.

It means he had the advantage during the initial duel and got himself into a better position. But I personally dont think that he had a better position. They both went hard with the force and Sids won. Simple as that.

Tarvos
Yer. Yoda was at the edge, while Sidious was more further in and had something to catch on to (the rail).

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Tarvos
Yer. Yoda was at the edge, while Sidious was more further in and had something to catch on to (the rail).

OK then. Its because Sids was winning the duel and managed to get himself into a superior position. But the fact is Yoda fell and Sidious didnt. To me this means Sids won that round.

tdtd
Sidious was never winning the duel, watch it again guys.. Sidious just weighs more than Yoda, and Yoda had the upper hand.

Rampant ox
If Yoda had the upperhand why didnt he come back to fight when Sidious came down from the 'high ground'. What you are saying is that Yoda is better when it clearly shows Yoda being outclassed and pushed off the edge.

tdtd
He was never outclassed, they were both pushed off the edge, and the stormtroopers came. Again, stop telling me what you THINK, and watch the scene, when Sidious always tried to dodge Yoda...

Rampant ox
Dodging Yoda doesnt mean that Yoda is the better duelist. In fact it probably means that Sids is better because he can withstand the best Yoda can throw at him. Plus the stormtroopers mean nothing. Yoda would dispose of them before Sids can ignite his saber.

tdtd
Because he can withstand the best Yoda can throw at him means he's better? What kind of logic is that? Stormtroopers mean nothing? There were thousands of stormtroopers in the senate area that Yoda would have to deal with on top of Sidious. The fact remains that in the novel Yoda did disarm Sidious, and at the end of the fight Yoda had Sidious on his heels, and I guarantee you that if it was on an even platform Yoda would come out the victor.

Rampant ox
The even platform part is only your opinion.It might be true it might not. But from what I could see is the two duelled and Sids came out on top. I dont know if Sids would use the stormtroopers to help him or not though. He might want to finish off the elite member of the jedi council himself.

tdtd
Originally posted by Rampant ox
The even platform part is only your opinion.It might be true it might not. But from what I could see is the two duelled and Sids came out on top. I dont know if Sids would use the stormtroopers to help him or not though. He might want to finish off the elite member of the jedi council himself.

It's not my opinion it's a logical assumption. They stalemated each other with Sidious always having the higher ground, and Yoda almost took him, therefore on an even platform Yoda would take him.

Rampant ox
They did duel on an even platform. One of those senate balconies. The only problem with it is that it was small and I thought that would have worked to Yodas advantage. After Yoda gets pushed off then you can argue high ground. Not before.

tdtd
Originally posted by Rampant ox
They did duel on an even platform. One of those senate balconies. The only problem with it is that it was small and I thought that would have worked to Yodas advantage. After Yoda gets pushed off then you can argue high ground. Not before.

I wonder if we watched the same fight then. I'm convinced Sidious is no match for Yoda in a saber match, so he got the higher ground and started chucking pods at Yoda, unless you're going to argue you they were on the same level..

Rampant ox
That was a battle of the force, not a lightsaber battle. Because Sids won the lightsaber duel he had the advantage of the high ground. But the key fact is he won the lightsaber duel.

tdtd
Um, he didn't win the lightsaber duel, what on earth are you talking about. First off it is unclear in the movie how he loses his saber but he does lose it while Yoda has his, and in the novel Yoda disarms him. You are arguing from ignorance, not facts.

Rampant ox
OK then. If your statements are true, Sids still managed to retreive the high ground WITHOUT his lightsaber.

tdtd
Ok, and how does this make him more powerful? Oh wait it doesn't, he may be smarter and nobody was doubting that, but Yoda is equal to, if not more powerful than him.

Rampant ox
Which is why Yoda lost and had to go into exile.

tdtd
What do you mean lost and had to go into exile. Yoda failed to stop the sith, what does that have to do with him going into exile. For all you know he wanted to survive to train Vader's children.

jollyjim311
Guys, Yoda and Sidious were equal. Sidious just ended not falling far. No big deal. They would stalemate each other in a fight.

Borbarad
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Guys, Yoda and Sidious were equal. Sidious just ended not falling far. No big deal. They would stalemate each other in a fight.

They were equal when Sidious always had an advantage in terms of position (middle of the pod during lightsaber fight, higher ground in force battle, again middle of the pod during their final force duel). Still Yoda fought him out of all positions of advantage.

Now...if they were equal when Sidious had all advantages (due to enviroment) what makes you think they would still be equal on equal ground (so without one of them having an advantage) ?

tdtd
Exactly what I said

DePWNZOR
Yoda > Sidious and Mace=Dooku. The Jedi take this, because whoever Yoda faces is going down hard and fast, while whoever Mace faces will enter into a longstalemate with him, until Yoda can come and PWN the remaining Sith.

tdtd
exactly

Revolver Ocelot
Yeah, cuz Yoda brought Sidious down "hard and fast"...

Last I checked, Sidious sent Yoda blasting 200 feet down the chamber in less than 10 minutes.

Yoda's a better duelist and slightly more powerful, but nothing's stopping Palpatine from taking advantage of the environment and winning.

tdtd
Last I checked Sidious didn't do anything to Yoda, that they both fell, and Yoda was smaller and lighter so he got the short end of the stick, not to mention Sidious had the "Oh shit i'm screwed" look, but way to observe. The whole argument is that Yoda is slightly better than Palpatine and he s.

Rampant ox
The way Sidious looks means absolutely nothing so we wont even go there. Sids managed to get into the better position by out manouvering Yoda. Yoda had every opportunity to get into the better position and get the high ground but didnt because Sids was better.

tdtd
Smarter, not better.

Rampant ox
But being smart in a duel is half the battle.

tdtd
Again, the two are different.

Rampant ox
What do you mean the two are different? In AOTC we see Anakin foolishly running at Dooku and got pwned with sith lightning for it. In TPM we see Maul toying with Obi-Wan and got chopped in half for it. If you arent smart in the battle you will probably lose. Sids is smarter than Yoda and he won.

tdtd
How did he win, explain that again. Neither 1 defeated the other, both lived, therefore it was a stalemate at best.

Rampant ox
Yoda knew he was going to lose which is why he was running away. It would have been a victory to Sids had Yoda stayed to finish the fight.

tdtd
The stormtroopers were coming, sure.. If it was a 1 on 1 Yoda would have won.. This is common sense.

Rampant ox
It was one on one. I didnt see anyone else influencing the fight until Yoda decided to run away

tdtd
You're right, Yoda didn't see the stormtroopers, he was just afraid of Sidious. Oh wait..

DePWNZOR
Originally posted by Rampant ox
It was one on one. I didnt see anyone else influencing the fight until Yoda decided to run away


Shut up you lame Dooku fanboy. Yoda>Sids, anyone with half a brain knows that.

Revolver Ocelot
Yoda is more powerful, but Sidious is smarter.

Who won again? Oh right.

Jonathan Mark
Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Yoda is more powerful, but Sidious is smarter.

Who won again? Oh right.

Tell me again how Sidious is smarter than a 900 year old Jedi Master? Sidious simply did what anyone with half a brain would do. He used the terrian to his advantage.

Revolver Ocelot
And Yoda... did not.

IKC
This is true, Veneficus. Sidious did outsmart Yoda.

Jonathan Mark
Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
And Yoda... did not.

Yoda was the agressor, he was at a disadvanatge just being in Sids office. He was fighting Sidious at the center of his power on Sidious' terms. Yoda was luckly those clone troopers didn't arrive any ealier than they did. Saying that Yoda didn't have the brains to use the terrian to his advanatge and Sidious did is crap. Yoda never even had the chance. Sidious pretty much had the advantage throughout the entire fight, not to mention that the Dark Side is far more suited to offence than the light.

Revolver Ocelot
...

Palpatine wasn't given the advantages. He took them. He stood his ass in the center of the pod, while Yoda was flipping around like a monkey around it. Palpatine got the highground in the chambers and started tossing pods AND he positioned himself safely inside the pod during the force fight.

He, in the end, won.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by DePWNZOR
Shut up you lame Dooku fanboy. Yoda>Sids, anyone with half a brain knows that.

Firstly I take offense to that comment. Dooku is almighty and if you arent a fan of him you must be crazy!!
Anyway your hole argument is based on nothing. All you said was anyone with half a brain knows that. Well I mustnt have half a brain or we were watching different movies because what I saw was Sidious win and Yoda having to run away. So dont post crap comments if you arent going to back them up.

Great Vengeance
Sidious > Yoda


The novel makes that clear... Yoda admits he simply wasnt strong enough to defeat the new sith threat, which is why he made his retreat to await the coming of Luke.

IKC
The novel is also C-Canon and got overridden by the movie's sequence of events, which shows Yoda literally pushing forward while Palpatine pours on the lightning.

Movie > Novel.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by IKC
The novel is also C-Canon and got overridden by the movie's sequence of events, which shows Yoda literally pushing forward while Palpatine pours on the lightning.

Movie > Novel.

Yoda pushing away some lightning, doesnt contradict a direct statement from the novel. No contradiction, so it stands.

DarkNemesis
Firstly, I need to know the setting of this fight, because, if it's a flat plain desert, how the hell is Sidious going to gain a terrain advantage the way he did in ROTS? Flying?

IKC
Contradiction doesn't make it non-C-Canon. Yoda overpowered everything Sidious gave him. Yoda was more powerful, ergo on even ground Yoda would have won. QED.

Janus Marius
Originally posted by IKC
Contradiction doesn't make it non-C-Canon. Yoda overpowered everything Sidious gave him. Yoda was more powerful, ergo on even ground Yoda would have won. QED.

Definately. But Great Vengeance is a serious Sidious fanboy, so you're waiting your breath.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Sidious > Yoda


The novel makes that clear... Yoda admits he simply wasnt strong enough to defeat the new sith threat, which is why he made his retreat to await the coming of Luke.

The Movie doesn't.


The ROTS Novel is completely nullified. It's out of this debate. Lucas has explained things that go directly against the Novel in the commentary and there is several contradictions in the Novel itself, such as Kit losing his head.

Last time I checked, Yoda was at the least on par with Sidious during that fight until Yoda's OWN blast of energy knocked him two hundred feet down to the Senate Chamber floors.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by IKC
Contradiction doesn't make it non-C-Canon. Yoda overpowered everything Sidious gave him. Yoda was more powerful, ergo on even ground Yoda would have won. QED.

Im really not familar with all these 'levels of canon'...sorry I just never cared about it that much.


And even if Yoda did overpower Sidious in that one struggle, smaller battles are won or lost throughout any given fight...it is the final outcome that classifies the winner. And that final outcome was Yoda running away.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Antediluvian


Last time I checked, Yoda was at the least on par with Sidious during that fight until Yoda's OWN blast of energy knocked him two hundred feet down to the Senate Chamber floors.

Just because it was Yodas own blast of energy doesnt make it alright. It can mean two things. That Yoda is unable to control his own force abilities because he is not skilled enough. I think we can all agree thats not true. Or Sids is strong enough to counter the best Yoda has to offer.

Maybe if Yoda had worked the terrain to his advantage he would have won but only maybe. The fact is Sids was smart enough to get the high ground and get into better positions to pull off the victory. Yoda either wasnt smart enough or couldnt get the better positions and that is why he failed.

Antediluvian
Actually, considering Mace and Yoda are apparently on par, one could say Yoda could have smashed Sidious on flat ground.

He had the upper fight for what . . . the entire fight? Hell, when he was lobbing Pods at Yoda, he was doing it from above. The second Yoda decided to retort to his actions by throwing ONE back at him, Sidious hopped off that Pod like a b*tch.


Actually, he barely hopped off of it.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Just because it was Yodas own blast of energy doesnt make it alright. It can mean two things. That Yoda is unable to control his own force abilities because he is not skilled enough. I think we can all agree thats not true. Or Sids is strong enough to counter the best Yoda has to offer.

Maybe if Yoda had worked the terrain to his advantage he would have won but only maybe. The fact is Sids was smart enough to get the high ground and get into better positions to pull off the victory. Yoda either wasnt smart enough or couldnt get the better positions and that is why he failed.

Sidious countered it? LOL! He flew off as well. He didn't go as far because he doesn't weigh around fourty pounds like Yoda does.

Sidious was also cowardly and kept distance, throwing pods and trying to run off at the beginning of the fight. When they were fighting, they were on par in Lightsaber combat.

Force? On par.


I wonder what would have happen if Sidious weighed as much as Yoda did. I wonder what would have happened if he dropped from that height.

Think he wouldn't have ran if he had the chance? Didn't he try the first time?

DarkNemesis
Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Firstly, I need to know the setting of this fight, because, if it's a flat plain desert, how the hell is Sidious going to gain a terrain advantage the way he did in ROTS? Flying?

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Antediluvian
Actually, considering Mace and Yoda are apparently on par, one could say Yoda could have smashed Sidious on flat ground.

He had the upper fight for what . . . the entire fight? Hell, when he was lobbing Pods at Yoda, he was doing it from above. The second Yoda decided to retort to his actions by throwing ONE back at him, Sidious hopped off that Pod like a b*tch.


Actually, he barely hopped off of it.

One could say that but you are coming to an A>B>C argument. Dont think that I like Sidious because I hate him (he told Anakin to chop of Dookus head the bastard) but the truth is that Sids won that battle and there is nothing to say he wouldnt win again on flat ground. I completely agree with your statements about the pods though.

Gay Luke
Except for the fact that if you used common sense and saw Yoda=Sidious with Sidious having the higher ground, then it would be logical to assume that Yoda would win on even ground.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Rampant ox
One could say that but you are coming to an A>B>C argument. Dont think that I like Sidious because I hate him (he told Anakin to chop of Dookus head the bastard) but the truth is that Sids won that battle and there is nothing to say he wouldnt win again on flat ground. I completely agree with your statements about the pods though.


Okay, that's not even an ABC Argument and I didn't slap it down as my stone-cold opinion.

And it just so happens that the databank states they're on par.


He didn't win that battle!

You see, if Sidious had his Lightsaber to Yodas throat or killed him, he would have won.

When someone leaves the fight because they just fell two hundred feet from their own blast after being on par with that person the entire fight . . .

That ain't winning, and Sidious didn't win. Sidious was barely able to keep up and he had the higher ground.

What's going to happen to him when they're on straight ground?

Gay Luke
And again how did Sidious win the battle? Because he lived and Yoda didn't kill him and thereby destroy the Sith? Damn those prophecies huh? How about the fact that Yoda lived and trained Luke? Wouldn't that be the ultimate victory?

DarkNemesis
Well, considering that Sidious beat Yoda on UNEVEN ground, it's not exactly proof that Sidious can beat Yoda on EVEN ground. Not saying he can't, but it doesn't quite justify it, especially if the setting (which hasn't been clarified by the creator of this thread yet) is flat, where there CAN'T BE a high ground advantage.

Gay Luke
He didn't BEAT Sidious, I don't understand where this is coming from. It was a COMPLETE stalemate at the end, confirmed by GL on his DVD commentary.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Well, considering that Sidious beat Yoda on UNEVEN ground, it's not exactly proof that Sidious can beat Yoda on EVEN ground. Not saying he can't, but it doesn't quite justify it, especially if the setting (which hasn't been clarified by the creator of this thread yet) is flat, where there CAN'T BE a high ground advantage.

Sidious never beat anyone, as explained previously.

The fact that the high ground is an advantage in the Star Wars Universe was proven at the end of that movie. Kenobi said it himself.


Bottom line is they were on par the ENTIRE fight and Sidious had the high ground.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Antediluvian
Okay, that's not even an ABC Argument and I didn't slap it down as my stone-cold opinion.

And it just so happens that the databank states they're on par.


He didn't win that battle!

You see, if Sidious had his Lightsaber to Yodas throat or killed him, he would have won.

When someone leaves the fight because they just fell two hundred feet from their own blast after being on par with that person the entire fight . . .

That ain't winning, and Sidious didn't win. Sidious was barely able to keep up and he had the higher ground.

What's going to happen to him when they're on straight ground?

Im not saying that Yoda wouldnt win on flat ground. What im saying is that because Sids won (Yes won!) the fight in ROTS it is only logical that he coud win on flat ground as well. For the record I agree that Sids was probably only winning from the high ground but he was smart enough to get there in the first place. There is no reason to say he wouldnt outsmart Yoda again on flat ground.

Great Vengeance
Originally posted by Antediluvian
Okay, that's not even an ABC Argument and I didn't slap it down as my stone-cold opinion.

And it just so happens that the databank states they're on par.


He didn't win that battle!

You see, if Sidious had his Lightsaber to Yodas throat or killed him, he would have won.

When someone leaves the fight because they just fell two hundred feet from their own blast after being on par with that person the entire fight . . .

That ain't winning, and Sidious didn't win. Sidious was barely able to keep up and he had the higher ground.

What's going to happen to him when they're on straight ground?


-It was an ABC argument.

-When somone flees a fight, they still lose...its just they were lucky enough to escape with their life.

-The enviroment is largely a useless factor in any given fight, being that BOTH combatants are fully capable of using it to their advantage. Yoda was beaten...the movie hints at it, the book states it in clear writing. Give it up.

Gay Luke
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Im not saying that Yoda wouldnt win on flat ground. What im saying is that because Sids won (Yes won!) the fight in ROTS it is only logical that he coud win on flat ground as well. For the record I agree that Sids was probably only winning from the high ground but he was smart enough to get there in the first place. There is no reason to say he wouldnt outsmart Yoda again on flat ground.

I'm not going to insult you but I will say your concept of logic or your logic itself is very off. First off, Sidious DIDn't win, see my previous post for reasoning. Second of all, if A=B when B has the advantage, then logic would tell you that most likely A>B if all things remain constant.

DarkNemesis
Originally posted by Gay Luke
He didn't BEAT Sidious, I don't understand where this is coming from. It was a COMPLETE stalemate at the end, confirmed by GL on his DVD commentary.

Really? GL stated it was a COMPLETE stalemate? What time in the movie is this?

Odoyle Rules
I believe it is in the Episode 3 DVD commentary.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Gay Luke
I'm not going to insult you but I will say your concept of logic or your logic itself is very off. First off, Sidious DIDn't win, see my previous post for reasoning. Second of all, if A=B when B has the advantage, then logic would tell you that most likely A>B if all things remain constant.

Whats to say that A=B? If Yoda was on par with Sids when Sids had the high ground why did he run away? If it was A=B there was still as bigger chance as Yoda winning as Sids had at winning. And judging by the importance of the battle Yoda would have stayed to fight if he thought he could win or had good enough odds at winning.

Odoyle Rules
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Whats to say that A=B? If Yoda was on par with Sids when Sids had the high ground why did he run away? If it was A=B there was still as bigger chance as Yoda winning as Sids had at winning. And judging by the importance of the battle Yoda would have stayed to fight if he thought he could win or had good enough odds at winning.


Why did he run away? Well lets see, Yoda isn't Michael Jordan so he can't just 200+ feet into the air, storm troopers were coming, etc.. And yes they were A=B according to the fight, and according to GL, they were the most powerful of their respective sides.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
-It was an ABC argument.


One with a proof source.


"Yoda and Mace are on Par."

Mace beat Sidious. Yoda was on par but Sidious had the high ground. If Yoda was in Mace's position . . .

You do the Math, son.



No. Yoda didn't lose. Lucas said it himself and what happened in that fight is direct proof Yoda did not lose that battle.




Yoda didn't have a chance. Sidious had been throwing pods at him and such. Sidious needed that high ground to defea . . . Oh sorry, try to defeat Yoda.

At least Yoda got the chance to leave. After Yoda used the force to vigorously shove Sidious into a chair, Sidious tried to run. At least Yoda recieved some real damage (From his own blast, of course.) before fleeing.

The book is nullified and isn't canon, the movie clearly shows Yoda's own blast throwing him and Sidious off the pod, and Lucas said they stalemated.


YOU give it up because your proof-less and your argument is stale.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Odoyle Rules
Why did he run away? Well lets see, Yoda isn't Michael Jordan so he can't just 200+ feet into the air, storm troopers were coming, etc.. And yes they were A=B according to the fight, and according to GL, they were the most powerful of their respective sides.

Stormtroopers are a very small factor. Yoda would pwn them in a matter of seconds. I dont think stormtroopers would influence the outcome of the most important duel of Yodas life. And whats to say the darkside isnt stronger than the light. If they are both the most powerful of their respective sides and the darkside is stronger then it make sense that Sids is stronger.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Im not saying that Yoda wouldnt win on flat ground. What im saying is that because Sids won (Yes won!) the fight in ROTS it is only logical that he coud win on flat ground as well. For the record I agree that Sids was probably only winning from the high ground but he was smart enough to get there in the first place. There is no reason to say he wouldnt outsmart Yoda again on flat ground.

Sidious never won the fight. That's the problem.

What's makes you think he would outsmart Yoda on flat ground? He couldn't do it WITH the advantage. What's he going to be WITHOUT it?

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Stormtroopers are a very small factor. Yoda would pwn them in a matter of seconds. I dont think stormtroopers would influence the outcome of the most important duel of Yodas life. And whats to say the darkside isnt stronger than the light. If they are both the most powerful of their respective sides and the darkside is stronger then it make sense that Sids is stronger.

If Sidious is stronger, why couldn't he defeat Mace, Oxboy?

DarkNemesis
Yoda would pwn Stormtroopers in a matter of seconds, but can he do it while fending off Sidious AT THE EXACT SAME TIME? I think not.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Antediluvian
Sidious never won the fight. That's the problem.

What's makes you think he would outsmart Yoda on flat ground? He couldn't do it WITH the advantage. What's he going to be WITHOUT it?

He outsmarted Yoda to get the advantage. Yoda had the same opportunities to get the high ground but didnt which means Sids is the smarter fighter.

PooPoo McGee
You're dodging the question. What advantage would Sidious have in lets say the Tatooine desert. Flat ground=no advantage

Motoko Kusanagi
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Whats to say that A=B? If Yoda was on par with Sids when Sids had the high ground why did he run away? If it was A=B there was still as bigger chance as Yoda winning as Sids had at winning. And judging by the importance of the battle Yoda would have stayed to fight if he thought he could win or had good enough odds at winning.

Well, throughout the "OT Yoda/OT Obi-Wan vs. OT Vader/OT Emporer" thread, you were using GL's quote as the evidence of Obi-Wan being superior to Yoda in ANH, so if this is the case then:



If it was confirmed by "God Almighty" himself that it was a stalemate, then it was a stalemate, and we all know Sidious had the obvious advantage during that fight. Then it's not so illogical to claim that it wouldn't be a stalemate if the fight was on even ground, and Yoda, having the weaker standpoint during the fight, would win.

Basically, it's just like everyone's been saying, they were = in an uneven fight, so the one who had the disadvantage should be able to defeat the one who had the advantage if it were an even fight.

PooPoo McGee
Good, 1 more person that gets it

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Antediluvian
If Sidious is stronger, why couldn't he defeat Mace, Oxboy?

That fight has little to do with what we are talking about. The outcome coud have been that Mace won because he was influenced by both sides of the force. Or Sids could have faked defeat because he seemed to have a lot more sith lightning in reserve.

PooPoo McGee
Can we say random illogical assumptions?

Janus Marius
*Hits thread with fanboy censor. Suddenly, all of Rampant Ox's posts disappear.*

Kickass.

Motoko Kusanagi
Finally, we see Janus bring this thread back to balance, destroying the Fanboy with teh leet censor, thus fulfilling the prophecies.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Motoko Kusanagi
Well, throughout the "OT Yoda/OT Obi-Wan vs. OT Vader/OT Emporer" thread, you were using GL's quote as the evidence of Obi-Wan being superior to Yoda in ANH, so if this is the case then:



If it was confirmed by "God Almighty" himself that it was a stalemate, then it was a stalemate, and we all know Sidious had the obvious advantage during that fight. Then it's not so illogical to claim that it wouldn't be a stalemate if the fight was on even ground, and Yoda, having the weaker standpoint during the fight, would win.

Basically, it's just like everyone's been saying, they were = in an uneven fight, so the one who had the disadvantage should be able to defeat the one who had the advantage if it were an even fight.

It was because Sids OUTSMARTED Yoda to get the high ground that it was an uneven fight. It would have been an uneven fight if Yoda had the high ground but he didnt because Sids bet him to it. The fight was a stalemate because Yoda ran away. If the match had kept going Sids would have won. And yes there is every chance Yoda would win on a Tatooine desert but what im saying is because Sids, lets say 'had the advantage', in ROTS it only logical that he would 'have the advantage' again.

Illustrious
Originally posted by Rampant ox
That fight has little to do with what we are talking about. The outcome coud have been that Mace won because he was influenced by both sides of the force. Or Sids could have faked defeat because he seemed to have a lot more sith lightning in reserve.

And if Yoda was black... he'd be able to jump farther...

Silly assumptions like these won't win you any arguments. Yoda and Sidious stalemated when Sidious had the high ground.

Did you see what happened to Anakin when he went against the guy with the high ground?

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Rampant ox
He outsmarted Yoda to get the advantage. Yoda had the same opportunities to get the high ground but didnt which means Sids is the smarter fighter.

No, It means Sidious is the more cowardly fighter and tried to rid of Yoda quickly. That would be why he tried to run in the first place.

And what made you think he outsmarted him? Yoda didn't have time to get up there. He was dodging pods. And when he did try, Sidious ran again.

PooPoo McGee
Originally posted by Rampant ox
It was because Sids OUTSMARTED Yoda to get the high ground that it was an uneven fight. It would have been an uneven fight if Yoda had the high ground but he didnt because Sids bet him to it. The fight was a stalemate because Yoda ran away. If the match had kept going Sids would have won. And yes there is every chance Yoda would win on a Tatooine desert but what im saying is because Sids, lets say 'had the advantage', in ROTS it only logical that he would 'have the advantage' again.


You're still missing the point. Regardless of how Sidious made it uneven, it was still an uneven fight, and it was a stalemate. The fight was stalemate because they both fell. Put Yoda back up there with no stormtroopers on the way, see if Sidious could take him himself. Just stop posting on this topic.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Rampant ox
That fight has little to do with what we are talking about. The outcome coud have been that Mace won because he was influenced by both sides of the force. Or Sids could have faked defeat because he seemed to have a lot more sith lightning in reserve.


Damnit!


Sidious didn't fake getting overpowered by Mace in Lightsaber combat.

That was CONFIRMED by GL. Nor was Sidious able to lob Mace out of the window with his Lightning. Sidious needed Anakins assistance to defeat Mace.


If it had not been for Anakin, the Dark Lord would be DEAD!

DarkNemesis
Originally posted by Rampant ox
It was because Sids OUTSMARTED Yoda to get the high ground that it was an uneven fight. It would have been an uneven fight if Yoda had the high ground but he didnt because Sids bet him to it. The fight was a stalemate because Yoda ran away. If the match had kept going Sids would have won. And yes there is every chance Yoda would win on a Tatooine desert but what im saying is because Sids, lets say 'had the advantage', in ROTS it only logical that he would 'have the advantage' again.

Why exactly is that? Sids had the advantage WITH HIGH GROUND. How is he going to get high ground on Tatooine? Is he going to fly?

Antediluvian
Originally posted by PooPoo McGee
Can we say random illogical assumptions?

For christs sake, TDTD!


Just wait until your ban is over!

Illustrious
Originally posted by Rampant ox
It was because Sids OUTSMARTED Yoda to get the high ground that it was an uneven fight. It would have been an uneven fight if Yoda had the high ground but he didnt because Sids bet him to it. The fight was a stalemate because Yoda ran away. If the match had kept going Sids would have won. And yes there is every chance Yoda would win on a Tatooine desert but what im saying is because Sids, lets say 'had the advantage', in ROTS it only logical that he would 'have the advantage' again.

Ughh... so Sidious is going to outsmart Yoda to get to the high ground when... there is no high ground to get to?

Is he going to fly? Steal Jango's jetpack? Use the power of almighty Artoo?

Sidious used the terrain to his advantage in one fight, yes. But that does not make him the superior fighter overall.

PooPoo McGee
Indeed.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Illustrious
Ughh... so Sidious is going to outsmart Yoda to get to the high ground when... there is no high ground to get to?

Is he going to fly? Steal Jango's jetpack? Use the power of almighty Artoo?

Sidious used the terrain to his advantage in one fight, yes. But that does not make him the superior fighter overall.


^ Exactly.

Not to mention, he STILL wasn't able to defeat Yoda even when he had the high ground.

That's the funny part.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by PooPoo McGee
You're still missing the point. Regardless of how Sidious made it uneven, it was still an uneven fight, and it was a stalemate. The fight was stalemate because they both fell. Put Yoda back up there with no stormtroopers on the way, see if Sidious could take him himself. Just stop posting on this topic.

You are making to many assumptions here. Put it this way. It was a stalemate because Yoda fell.
Yoda fell because they force pushed each other.
Sids didnt fall because he had the better position. Sids got the better position by outsmarting and possibly outduelling Yoda to get there.
Yoda wasnt put back up there after he fell which doesnt mean that he would win or lose if he kept going. But from what I saw Yoda ran away. Its that simple.

Antediluvian
Originally posted by Rampant ox
You are making to many assumptions here. Put it this way. It was a stalemate because Yoda fell.
Yoda fell because they force pushed each other.
Sids didnt fall because he had the better position. Sids got the better position by outsmarting and possibly outduelling Yoda to get there.
Yoda wasnt put back up there after he fell which doesnt mean that he would win or lose if he kept going. But from what I saw Yoda ran away. Its that simple.


Sidious tried to run as well. You can't determine a fight by that.

Luckily, Yoda obtained the skill to stop him from fleeing.

Yoda fell from his own force explosion! He blasted them both with an extreme amount of pressured Force and Yoda flew farther because of the weight differential.

Revolver Ocelot
You're dodging the question. What advantage would Sidious have in lets say the Tatooine desert. Flat ground=no advantage

Oh yeah, because the original poster so set this match in the Tatooine desert.

I can say the same thing: What will stop Yoda from getting tooled in let's say the Senate Chambers... AGAIN?!

You're still missing the point. Regardless of how Sidious made it uneven, it was still an uneven fight, and it was a stalemate. The fight was stalemate because they both fell. Put Yoda back up there with no stormtroopers on the way, see if Sidious could take him himself. Just stop posting on this topic.

Last I checked, Yoda was blasted 200 feet from the pod to the ground and proceeded to spend the next 20 years in exile on Dagobah, while good ole' Palpatine took control of his good ole' GALAXY.

Palpatine won the damn fight. Yoda being more powerful didn't save his ass this time.

DarkNemesis
Correct me if I'm wrong but I also heard of rumours that Yoda disarmed Sidious in their lightsaber duel which caused Sidious to run for the high ground. Is this true?

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