Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Assuming both Yoda and the Emperor have lightsabers.

Who would win? Jedi or Sith?

Well, the ANH novel said that Vader and Kenobi were virtually stalemating each other. Neither could overcome the other.

But the Emperor was pretty much tied with Yoda in ROTS (although Yoda was his slight superior).

The Emperor spent a good 20 years studying the Dark Side and the holocrons from the Jedi temple. While all Yoda did was meditate in a hut.

I'm not sure if OT Yoda can handle the OT Emperor.

He'd probably die. And he has no lightsaber.

Yes, I'm more inclined to say that Kenobi and Vader will stalemate each other, whilst Sidious outfights Yoda in a long, grueling duel.

The Sith.

Well, for this match they're given sabres.

Thing is, at this point the force has gone fully in the favor of the dark side. Obi-Wan and Yoda have been hiding in BFE doing nothing really, and they're sorely out of saber practice. And both of them were only barely a match for their Sith counterparts twenty years prior.

The Sith, I'd say. Vader's spent 20 years pwning Jedi stragglers, Palpatine's spent 20 years learning neat Dark Side powers and being badass on his throne of doom...

Yoda and Kenobi have spent 20 years learning how to become ghosts...

Originally posted by Captain REX
The Sith, I'd say. Vader's spent 20 years pwning Jedi stragglers, Palpatine's spent 20 years learning neat Dark Side powers and being badass on his throne of doom...

Yoda and Kenobi have spent 20 years learning how to become ghosts...

I can see it now, the heat of Tattoine has gotten to Obi Wan and he is just wearing a sheet and yelling around jawa neighborhoods screaming "Boo!" Kenobi would make a good character on "Cops," well, up until he tried to ride away on a bantha naked.

I'm so sorry.

I'd have to say the sith too. Although I do think the Jedi have more power and force knowledge, Vader has been in combat the past 20 years, while Sidious studied God knows how much dark side knowledge. In the end they would take it more often than not.

Yoda is probably too old and weak to take the OT Emperor. ROTS Yoda might take him, but not OT.

The Sith win. GL says by ANH Obi-Wan is stronger than Yoda, so Sidious might be able to take these two alone. But with Vader there, Sidious pwns Yoda while Vader holds back Kenobi, then Sidious and Vader together pwn Kenobi.

Originally posted by darthsith19
The Sith win. GL says by ANH Obi-Wan is stronger than Yoda, so Sidious might be able to take these two alone. But with Vader there, Sidious pwns Yoda while Vader holds back Kenobi, then Sidious and Vader together pwn Kenobi.
Whoa what!?

ANH Obi-Wan is stronger than Yoda?

No darthsith... GL said "Obi-Wan, who at this point is the strongest good guy". He could be referring to the fact that Yoda had not been introduced yet.

No, Yoda had been introduced. He said that on the DVD, which came out in 2005. He didn't say Obi-Wan was the strongest good guy in the film, he said the strongest good guy at that time. Unless I'm mistaken Yoda was still alive and a good guy at that time.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
No darthsith... GL said "Obi-Wan, who at this point is the strongest good guy". He could be referring to the fact that Yoda had not been introduced yet.


Yoda was not introduced til ESB

Indeed.

The Sith. While Sidious uses his Lightning to blow Yoda's decent Push away, Vader and Kenobi slowly slash eachother, then Sidious blasts Kenobi.

Originally posted by tdtd
Yoda was not introduced til ESB
Yoda was alive at the time of ANH. "Obi-Wan, who at this point is the strongest good guy" Lets break that down. "Obi-Wan ... is the strongest good guy" meaning he was the strongest. If he's the strongest good guy then he's stronger than any of the other good guys. "At this point." At this point, the point of ANH, he's the strongest good guy. In other words, the quote says "At the point of ANH where Obi-Wan fights Vader he is the strongest good guy." Strongest good guy = he's stronger than any other good guy, not 2nd strongest or third strongest, strongest. Yoda was alive at this time but Obi-Wan was still given the term "strongest". Not Yoda. ANH Audio Commentary, Chapter 37-38, if you don't believe me.

Lets see if you can understand this. At no point in any time during SW was Obiwan more powerful than Yoda. He was the strongest good guy when Yoda wasn't introduced

Originally posted by tdtd
Lets see if you can understand this. At no point in any time during SW was Obiwan more powerful than Yoda. He was the strongest good guy when Yoda wasn't introduced

Why would Yoda have to be introduced for Obi-Wan to be the strongest during ANH? The key words here are: during and ANH. Was Yoda around or not during ANH? Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was seeing as he's alive during ESB. Therefore, this includes every "good guy" around during ANH, even some who weren't introduced.

Why would you argue in the face of a fact? I guess because Anakin wasn't introduced a year before TPM, however, still existing, Obi-Wan or some other clown had the most force potential. Iffy-example, but you should get the point. The basic is: character x doesn't have to be introduced to be included, as long as we know character x existed (or alive rather) -- it includes character x. And, in this case, character x = Yoda.

Originally posted by Motoko Kusanagi
Why would Yoda have to be introduced for Obi-Wan to be the strongest during ANH? The key words here are: during and ANH. Was Yoda around or not during ANH? Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was seeing as he's alive during ESB. Therefore, this includes every "good guy" around during ANH, even some who weren't introduced.

Why would you argue in the face of a fact? I guess because Anakin wasn't introduced a year before TPM, however, still existing, Obi-Wan or some other clown had the most force potential. Iffy-example, but you should get the point. The basic is: character x doesn't have to be introduced to be included, as long as we know character x existed (or alive rather) -- it includes character x. And, in this case, character x = Yoda.

Um, because in no point was Obiwan stronger than Yoda, and when episode 4 came out, Yoda didn't exist as a character, so Obiwan was the strongest good guy at the time. So no, it doesn't include all the good guys that WEREN'T introduced.

I think DS is totally missing the point- Yoda is not depicted in the movie. He is not part of the "good guys" in ANH. He's somewhere in Dagobah growing fungi on his asscrack. The good guys in ANH include Luke, Chewbacca, Obi-Wan, Leia, Wedge, Biggs, random assorted rebels, and the droids.

Hmmm.... let's see which one of those is the strongest? Oh, could it be the JEDI MASTER?

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2459/cookie8ow.jpg

LOL! Yea I was trying to explain it, btw I love your pictures.

"During" and "ANH" are never mentioned in the quote itself, so your argument is shot down right there.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
"During" and "ANH" are never mentioned in the quote itself, so your argument is shot down right there.

If you're referring to me, I never said the quote said "during" and "ANH", I said it in my statement: Why would Yoda have to be introduced for Obi-Wan to be the strongest during ANH?

"During" and "ANH" were the key words of my statement, not the quotes.

And how does your quote convey the same message as Lucas'?

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
And how does your quote convey the same message as Lucas'?

"Obi-Wan, who at this point is the strongest good guy"

Let's see, I wonder how it reflects the quote -- seeing as Obi-Wan was only alive up to ANH, which accounts for the "ANH" part. And, "who at this point" goes towards the "during", considering it was referring to ANH.

Originally posted by tdtd
Lets see if you can understand this. At no point in any time during SW was Obiwan more powerful than Yoda. He was the strongest good guy when Yoda wasn't introduced
tdtd or GL... hmm... I'll go with GL.



GL disagrees. And are you trying to say Yoda didn't exist as a character when the ANH dvd came out in 2004? Lol, self-pwnage.


Janus, the quote did NOT say Obi-Wan was the strongest good guy IN ANH, he said AT THE TIME OF ANH. Was Yoda alive AT THE TIME of ANH? I love how people say GL's wrong just becuase they don't want to admit that ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Yoda.

"Who at this point" could also be referring to the ongoing film. It does not have to mean "Obi-Wan is now the most powerful good guy in the Star Wars Universe".

Im going to agree with darthsith19. Whatever GL says is correct even though it can contradict with whats going on. During the time of ANH Yoda was alive. So was Obi-Wan. GL says that Obi-Wan is the strongest good guy at the time of ANH. Which means that Obi-Wan is stronger than Yoda. Just because Yoda hasnt been introduced doesnt mean he doesnt exist.

Why don't you two read up on this before making an invalid argument. Yoda wasn't created by the time ANH came around, so don't start making assumptions that he existed unless GL himself says he existed and Obiwan was stronger than him.

Originally posted by tdtd
Why don't you two read up on this before making an invalid argument. Yoda wasn't created by the time ANH came around, so don't start making assumptions that he existed unless GL himself says he existed and Obiwan was stronger than him.

Yoda didn't exist in 2004? See, the thing is it's 2004, not 1977.

Originally posted by tdtd
Why don't you two read up on this before making an invalid argument. Yoda wasn't created by the time ANH came around, so don't start making assumptions that he existed unless GL himself says he existed and Obiwan was stronger than him.

What you dont understand is that Yoda did exist. Because he wasnt introduced is irrelevant. So according to your logic Sidious doesnt exist because he wasnt introduced in ANH. Its a load of crap. GL had a rough plan of all the SW movies in his head before he made them and he must have had Yoda included there somewhere. GL knew about Yoda and it was his choice to introduce him or not. He decided not to until ESB. The absence of him in ANH doesnt mean hes not alive.

I say the Sith would win this one.

Yes, tdtd. Lucas didn't make the comment in 1977, he made it in 2004, in which case I'm pretty sure that Yoda existed. lol...

Its in ANH, but it says Obi is the strongest. Had the comment been made in 1977 then Yoda being in ESB would override it, as Yoda would have indeed not been created.

But since the comment was made in 2004, which was 37 years after ANH was made, then GL comments refer to the whole OT, not just ANH.

AND the Sith HAVE to win this fight. If they could beat Sids and Vader then why didnt they just go do it?

The whole OT relies upon them not being able to beat the Sith themselves, and Luke was "the new hope"

Sids and Vader win.

Alright, silly plot devices aside...

I fail to see how this one idle statement of Lucas' means that Obi-Wan, who could not even begin to contest with Count Dooku or Darth Sidious, spent twenty years in the desert and suddenly became "stronger" than a 900 year old Jedi Master. That is, unless Lucas was being sly and commenting on -physical- strength. I'm quite sure that Yoda's weaker than Obi-Wan, size and all.

Exactly Janus, unless Lucas directly says that Yoda did exist and Obiwan was stronger, there's nothing to assume that that is the case.

But GL shows us that Yoda exists in ESB. This would mean that he exists in ANH which would then mean that Obi-Wan is stronger than him. Back in 1977 you would have a valid argument but now in 2006 and we know Yoda was alive in ANH your theory goes out the window.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
But GL shows us that Yoda exists in ESB. This would mean that he exists in ANH which would then mean that Obi-Wan is stronger than him. Back in 1977 you would have a valid argument but now in 2006 and we know Yoda was alive in ANH your theory goes out the window.


That's an unfounded assumption ox. Because the character exists in setting B, means he exists in setting A, is a logical fallacy. It doesn't matter WHAT we know in 2007, the movies are the same based on the same thing which is the original script which is in 1977. Your argument isn't valid.

But the audio commentary wasnt made until after ESB came out. We have all seen and established Yoda as a character by then and know that he existed in ANH.

Again, ANH is based on the original script, so you can't use the fact that you've seen the whole story to establish that Yoda did exist.

Ok then. Lets look at it from a different angle. When GL says good guy we can presume he means every good guy in the universe. Because in ANH we can only establish about 7 characters as good guys(not including the rebellion). This means that Obi-Wan is stronger than anyone in the universe in ANH even if they have not yet been created.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Ok then. Lets look at it from a different angle. When GL says good guy we can presume he means every good guy in the universe. Because in ANH we can only establish about 7 characters as good guys(not including the rebellion). This means that Obi-Wan is stronger than anyone in the universe in ANH even if they have not yet been created.


No, GL means everyone in the universe with the exception of people that haven't been created. Obviously he isn't going to have a universal statement for people he hasn't created yet Ox.

But thats what he said and GL doesnt have exceptions unless he specifically states them, which he didnt. We can only conclude that Obi-Wan was better than Yoda.

No, you are wrong. The script has not changed since 77, only our knowledge has changed, which isn't a logical reason to think Yoda exists by ANH, so your logic is faulty.

Even if Yoda hasnt been introduced or thought of GL still says that Obi-Wan is the strongest in ANH, Yoda or not.

Ok, Obiwan is the strongest in ANH while Yoder doesn't exist, congratulations.. Yet if Yoder was there he would have been the strongest because at no point in time was Obiwan stronger than Yoda.

No, your incorrect tdtd. By that kind of logic then Ragnos would not be "The Dark Lord Sith, the most powerful of the most powerful" in nothing OTHER then that exact comic he was in. I could come up with more examples, but I'm too tired, I assume you get the point though. If what your saying is the case then NOTHING any narrator said could be taken into any context outside of that specific story they were narrated upon.

Comments made by omniscient narrators are ever spanning, (to a point) and seeing as Lucas counts as THE omniscient narrator of all of SW, then his comments are as ever spanning as any other omniscient narrators.

Although narration comments cannot predict what is to come in the future (like the Ragnos comment that is now under 'scrupulation') They can account for a variable degree of time span. When Lucas says "At this point" he is including EVERYTHING at that point, including all things that may or may not be mentioned or seen in that particular narration. If Lucas made a comment "Han was the best smuggler in the galaxy at this point" it would include ALL the smugglers, not the ones just seen in the movie. And since Yoda was indeed alive at this point, he is saying that Obi is stronger then Yoda.

I don't like, nor do I agree with this, as I don't think Obi could EVER be logically more powerful then Yoda, this is unfortunate for me however, as Lucas has said it, and though I may not like it, it is as it is. Your just gonna have to accept it.

You have no proof that Yoda is STILL better. He lives on a frickin swamp planet eating his frickin walking stick to survive!! A lot has happened since ROTS and there is every possibility Obi-Wan surpassed Yoda.

Ok well until you come up with examples, don't post, as you present no argument.


Ok Ox, we have no proof Ragnos is the most powerful of the most powerful either right? Oh wait.

Its not needed, GL comments override any need for argumentation.

Again, your logic is flawed, you are saying "oh because we have seen all of the movies that means Yoda did exist in ANH", while I'm saying GL comments remain in the time where Yoda didn't exist, and unless he UPDATED those comments which he didn't, then there's no reason to assume the ridiculous, and therefore destroys your argument or flawed logic.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
No, your incorrect tdtd. By that kind of logic then Ragnos would not be "The Dark Lord Sith, the most powerful of the most powerful" in nothing OTHER then that exact comic he was in. I could come up with more examples, but I'm too tired, I assume you get the point though. If what your saying is the case then NOTHING any narrator said could be taken into any context outside of that specific story they were narrated upon.

Comments made by omniscient narrators are ever spanning, (to a point) and seeing as Lucas counts as THE omniscient narrator of all of SW, then his comments are as ever spanning as any other omniscient narrators.

Although narration comments cannot predict what is to come in the future (like the Ragnos comment that is now under 'scrupulation') They can account for a variable degree of time span. When Lucas says "At this point" he is including EVERYTHING at that point, including all things that may or may not be mentioned or seen in that particular narration. If Lucas made a comment "Han was the best smuggler in the galaxy at this point" it would include ALL the smugglers, not the ones just seen in the movie. And since Yoda was indeed alive at this point, he is saying that Obi is stronger then Yoda.

I don't like, nor do I agree with this, as I don't think Obi could EVER be logically more powerful then Yoda, this is unfortunate for me however, as Lucas has said it, and though I may not like it, it is as it is. Your just gonna have to accept it.

I dont need an example I have proof. Gls comment in the commentary.

Ok and again when you show me GL's commentary when he's statng that Obiwan is the strongest WHILE Yoda exists, then you can continue this argument, right now you have no basis for your so called logic.

((The Anomaly)) is correct. None of us want t admit nor does it make sense that Obi-Wan is better. But according to GL he is and GLs word is law.

I'm not sure if tdtd even read my post, because he's said nothing to argue against it.

No, you're both arguing from ignorance because GL said that back in 1977, I haven't heard him reiterate it now nor say that Obiwan was stronger WITH the knowledge that Yoda existed. I'll let Janus explain this to you tomorrow.

No he didn't say it back in 1977, thats what WE ARE saying. It was recorded and made in 2004, not 1977.

Movie = 1977
Commentary on movie = 2004

get it?

Show me the commentary, I don't even think you're interpreting it correctly even if it was said.

How can I show you commentary? Don't you have the DVD's?

Just go listen to it.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
No he didn't say it back in 1977, thats what WE ARE saying. It was recorded and made in 2004, not 1977

Movie = 1977
Commentary on movie = 2004

get it?


Basically what I said before and you are exactly right. The commentary was made after we established Yoda as a character in ANH.

Somebody type out the summary of the commentary, I can guarantee you that you are enterpreting it incorrectly. 2004 or 1977 Yoda wasn't established as a character till ESB, so again, I'd like the summary please otherwise youre not understanding the quote.

I have no time for that, I'll do it tomorrow. I'm extremly tired.

But I will do it tomorrow as I dont have to work.

Just PM me now with a msg reminding me to do it.

Oh come on, common sense again, guys!

GL has made it clear on multiple occasions that Yoda is the most powerful Light Side Force user.

The commentary is clearly referring to that point in the storyline- on the idea that ANH is the first film to be seen. It's a point about what the audeicne can see, not a commentary on wider continuity.

But GL doesnt say that!! All he says is that Kenobi is the most powerful good guy of ANH. He doesnt say Obi-Wan is the most powerful good guy except for those we havent yet met.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Alright, silly plot devices aside...

I fail to see how this one idle statement of Lucas' means that Obi-Wan, who could not even begin to contest with Count Dooku or Darth Sidious, spent twenty years in the desert and suddenly became "stronger" than a 900 year old Jedi Master. That is, unless Lucas was being sly and commenting on -physical- strength. I'm quite sure that Yoda's weaker than Obi-Wan, size and all.

Well, no one know what Obi-Wan did on Tatioone or if he practiced or not. But point is GL said it so it's official.


tdtd, the Audio Commentary was NOT based on the ANH script. It was originally created in 2004. Do you even know what an Audio Commentary is?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Oh come on, common sense again, guys!

GL has made it clear on multiple occasions that Yoda is the most powerful Light Side Force user.

The commentary is clearly referring to that point in the storyline- on the idea that ANH is the first film to be seen. It's a point about what the audeicne can see, not a commentary on wider continuity.

Sorry Ush, but unless I missed something, you're not more official than GL. Obi-Wan, according to Lucas, is THE STRONGEST GOOD GUY. Yoda is a good guy, has been invented, but Obi-Wan is the strongest.

Wow, I didn't realize people were this deluded and anal.

Unless you can show exactly where GL compares and references Obi-Wan's power to Yoda's power IN this commentary, you can't make such a statement. You're interpreting the statement as ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Yoda. However, you're failing to realize that you don't know which good guys GL is talking about! Put it in context! If it's during a scene from ANH... and Yoda's not in ANH, chances are he's not including Yoda in that generalization. And that's what it is- a generalization.

So unless you can follow up on this and show us that it's an official stance that Obi-Wan > Yoda by ANH and lump in some in-universe sources to prove it, you have... NOTHING.

Now, stop being ridiculous.

Thank you Janus

Yeah, this is the first part of my Stop The Bullshit campaign. Seriously, this is ridiculous.

At least I'm getting shit right nowadays

You'd think with such a stagnant, small area of interest as EU (Which, this section has been around since last February, so most if not all of the characters have been covered) we wouldn't have reoccuring bouts of "OMfg teh yoda r not teh gud!!!11" and "zOMgss teh cideus pwns j00!!111"

I mean, seriously.

LOL.... What does that say about today's youth?

They have the good judgment skills of this kid:

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/9198/ep3swkid2yo.jpg

I hope that's not the star wars kid...But that's hot.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Wow, I didn't realize people were this deluded and anal.

Unless you can show exactly where GL compares and references Obi-Wan's power to Yoda's power IN this commentary, you can't make such a statement. You're interpreting the statement as ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Yoda. However, you're failing to realize that you don't know which good guys GL is talking about! Put it in context! If it's during a scene from ANH... and Yoda's not in ANH, chances are he's not including Yoda in that generalization. And that's what it is- a generalization.

So unless you can follow up on this and show us that it's an official stance that Obi-Wan > Yoda by ANH and lump in some in-universe sources to prove it, you have... NOTHING.

Now, stop being ridiculous.

We arent being ridiculous because we are right. GL himself said that Obi-Wan is the strongest good guy at this point. What you are saying is that Yoda wasnt alive in ANH which is a load of bull. I dont want to beleive that Obi-Wan is stronger either but if GL says it it is true.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
We arent being ridiculous because we are right. GL himself said that Obi-Wan is the strongest good guy at this point. What you are saying is that Yoda wasnt alive in ANH which is a load of bull. I dont want to beleive that Obi-Wan is stronger either but if GL says it it is true.

What the **** are YOU talking about? I never said Yoda wasn't alive as of ANH. I said you guys are being a bunch of literal, anal fools and not putting the comment IN CONTEXT. I suggest you look that up before you keep running at the mouth.

Now, before you go skimming this post and playing Noob Cowboy, I suggest you ask yourself these questions:

1. What was the scene in question during the commentary?

2. Did GL specifically say "all the good guys including the ones not in this movie?"

3. Don't you think it's ridiculous that Obi-Wan would suddenly be stronger than Jedi Master Yoda, who he clearly cites as his superior both in the OT and the PT, from sitting out in the desert?

In short, don't be assinine- Obi-Wan is NOT better than Yoda.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
What the **** are YOU talking about? I never said Yoda wasn't alive as of ANH. I said you guys are being a bunch of literal, anal fools and not putting the comment IN CONTEXT. I suggest you look that up before you keep running at the mouth.

Now, before you go skimming this post and playing Noob Cowboy, I suggest you ask yourself these questions:

1. What was the scene in question during the commentary?

2. Did GL specifically say "all the good guys including the ones not in this movie?"

3. Don't you think it's ridiculous that Obi-Wan would suddenly be stronger than Jedi Master Yoda, who he clearly cites as his superior both in the OT and the PT, from sitting out in the desert?

In short, don't be assinine- Obi-Wan is NOT better than Yoda.

The answwr to your questions are:
1. I think it was just when Obi-Wan ignites his lightsaber to fight Vader
2.No George Lucas said that Obi-Wan is the strongest good guy at his point. This means every good guy, including Yoda.
3.This is only your opinion. We as an audience have no idea what training goes on in the desert between the PT and OT. There is no evidence to suggest that Yoda is still better.

Yeah, you can't be reasoned with. Stop talking, I'm done with you.

Amen... AAAAAMENNNNN... What did I say? AMMMMENNNNN

It's either chapter 37 or 38. Listen to it, it'll only take a few minutes.

"At this point" what does that mean. At this point in the galaxy. "Obi-Wan's the strongest good guy." means he's stronger than the other good guys. Not in this film Obi-Wan's the strongest, at this point in general.

What's ridiculous is us having George Lucas's word, which just happens to be the highest source of canon.

Originally posted by darthsith19
It's either chapter 37 or 38. Listen to it, it'll only take a few minutes.

"At this point" what does that mean. At this point in the galaxy. "Obi-Wan's the strongest good guy." means he's stronger than the other good guys. Not in this film Obi-Wan's the strongest, at this point in general.

What's ridiculous is us having George Lucas's word, which just happens to be the highest source of canon.

http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/9976/warninglabel5cf.jpg

Originally posted by Janus Marius
http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/9976/warninglabel5cf.jpg
Wow, first you think you can override Lucas and then when no one except tdtd thinks you are more official than Lucas you try and insult the rest of us. Good job, Janus.

If you think I said I could override GL, you need to learn how to READ and COMPREHEND. But I don't think you can, DS. You regularly argue out of your ass.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Wow, first you think you can override Lucas and then when no one except tdtd thinks you are more official than Lucas you try and insult the rest of us. Good job, Janus.

Agreed.

I didn't argue with GL either, I just used logic, and so did Janus, learn it live it love it and embrace it.

Of course you are arguing with GL. GL says that Obi-Wan is the strongest good guy in the galaxy at that point and you are saying he isnt. Sounds like arguing to me.

Again, because Yoda was not yet created, can you not read, nor comprehend logic? Yoder was NOT yet created when GL said it the first time, nor was he mentioned the second time.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Of course you are arguing with GL. GL says that Obi-Wan is the strongest good guy in the galaxy at that point and you are saying he isnt. Sounds like arguing to me.

...

Answer me honestly- did you read all of my initial post and understand it?

Dude... don't argue with Janus... he's god.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
...

Answer me honestly- did you read all of my initial post and understand it?

Of course I bloody read them!! But all you are doing is contradicting what GL himself said.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Of course I bloody read them!! But all you are doing is contradicting what GL himself said.
No, you DIDN'T read what I posted. Because I said explicitly that GL may very well have NOT included Yoda in his generalization. What you fail to realize (And apparently , a few others) is that GL is not looking to establish absolute canon with his every word. A director's commentary is not scripted or preplanned, and when he's talking, he's ... -gasp!- discussing the movie and scene at hand. Yoda is not in ANH. He's not even referenced. GL does not include him in his statement, despite Darthsith's literal and anal assertion that he does.

And again, it would make absolutely NO sense for Obi-Wan Kenobi to surpass Yoda, who could defeat Anakin better than he could, AND could have defeated Sidious on even ground, when he cannot overcome Vader in ANH!

If you DO take Gl literally, then you'd say that Vader = 80% of Sidious.

Well, if Yoda = Sidious, and Obi-Wan > Yoda, then Obi-Wan >> Vader.

So do you kinda sorta maybe see where I'm coming from now?

That might be possible. I've heard theories that "Take one for the team" Kenobi was playing with Vader the whole time. Not sure if I believe it but I wouldn't put it past him. He was aiming for a moral victory, anyways.

Well, Obi-Wan had no problems with lopping Anakin's arms off and leaving him to get a really bad sunburn, so I don't see him having moral qualms with ending his life later on.

I understand your point completely Janus but you have just presented an A<B<C argument. You are right that the commentary is made up on the spot but it was made after we established Yoda as a character. You argument would be perfectly reasonable if the commentary was made before we saw Yoda but it wasnt, so we can only assume that GL is referring to Yoda.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I understand your point completely Janus but you have just presented an A<B<C argument.

And the entire point is that for Obi-Wan to be "stronger" than Yoda, he must be "stronger" in all aspects- this INCLUDES A< B if A = C and C < B arguments. And it's not a small difference in power either... it's the difference between Obi-Wan who was on the backs of his heels trying not to get tooled by Anakin, who got destroyed by Dooku...

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/7333/000obithrow9wk1wy5ci.gif

... Is suddenly going to outfight Darth Sidious? Tell me, can ANH Obi-Wan block Sith Lightning with his hands? Can he catch that pod that Yoda stopped in a heartbeat without any apparent effort? The only examples of force use we see from ANh Obi-Wan is him using the mind trick on a bunch of simpletons. That's something he did in AOTC.

So I think basing your entire argument on just one statement taken entirely out of context and not applying some uh... reason makes you WRONG.



I swear, you are so damn obtuse. I am FULLY aware that Yoda existed in the series at this point. However, he did not make an appearance in the movie, ANH. Therefore, how can you conclude that he is definately without a doubt, 100% lumped in this group of "good guys" that GL is vaguely referencing in a directory's commentary? Do you understand just how much you're being thick?

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/3682/vots3wk.jpg

At first, I would've said DS was right (actually I did), but Janus you've made me see the light ( ).

The "during this point", could just be referring to character's we've seen up to the actual quote, and of course, Obi-Wan would be the strongest out of the ones we've seen appear.

Lucas doesn't need to make canon statements in his every word about the entire Star Wars universe, and you can't give the "without a doubt is what he meant" when there is still a probability that his quote was only referring to those who we see appear up to that point in the movie, who were of course "good guys".

Originally posted by Motoko Kusanagi
At first, I would've said DS was right (actually I did), but Janus you've made me see the light ( ).

The "during this point", could just be referring to character's we've seen up to the actual quote, and of course, Obi-Wan would be the strongest out of the ones we've seen appear.

Lucas doesn't need to make canon statements in his every word about the entire Star Wars universe, and you can't give the "without a doubt is what he meant" when there is still a probability that his quote was only referring to those who we see appear up to that point in the movie, who were of course "good guys".

Yep. You have seen the light! People can't make 100% binding statements on canon by taking severe liberties and taking things horribly out of context.

WTF? The ANH AC states Vader to be like the King of the Universe in ESB, and since King of the Universe>>>>>>>> Emperor of the Galaxy, Vader >>> Palpatine qed

lmao

Originally posted by Janus Marius
If you think I said I could override GL, you need to learn how to READ and COMPREHEND. But I don't think you can, DS. You regularly argue out of your ass.
I provide a quote from GL and you say he's wrong. Is this the best you can do?

tdtd, we know he was created before 1980, since ESB came out in 1980. Which came first, 1980 or 2004?

So your assuming Gl forgot about Yoda? Well, until he says "Whoops, I forgot about Yoda." his word is canon. And wow, another insult, why am I not surprised.

And this comes from the man who made an entire thread about Glentract saying the movies were more official than GL.

Why would he have to be stronger in all aspects? Sidious is stronger than Dooku, right, but not in all aspects. Dooku's the better duelier. He's still stronger. And no one ever said ROTS Obi-Wan is stronger than ROTS Yoda. Alot happened in 19 years.

The word "film" was not used. Strongers "at this point in the film." was not used, just "at this point." he wasn't refrencing the movie but the whole of Star Wars.


If another GL quote contradicts the ANH one then possibly the ANh one is an error. If not, GL's the absolute highest source of canon. There's no arguing against GL's word. For the record, it's not like I wish for Obi-Wan to be stronger. GL said it, though, so it's official. Get over it.

The whole point of the AC is to comment on the movie (ANH), not the entirety of Star Wars.

Janus why do you bother anymore.

Cause it is my will that he do so. This is all quite entertaining, you make very good pawns.

But let it continue. Janus explain again why their taking it out of contrast?

I think I've explained it clearly, and Janus explained it more clearly. There's just so much you can say to someone with a double digit IQ.

But..but, but-but. I want the argument to continue

Originally posted by darthsith19
http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/1866/wered20that20curry20go2ni3bc.jpg

Yeah, I thought so. You should quit while you're... oh nevermind.

OK Janus you win. Your one hell of a debater and I can see that there is no convincing you. That was a great argument though. Well done.


clappingclappingclappingclapping

Originally posted by Rampant ox
OK Janus you win. Your one hell of a debater and I can see that there is no convincing you. That was a great argument though. Well done.


clappingclappingclappingclapping
LOL. yeah, good one Janus. That picture of you with your head in your ass really proved your point.


Oh, and what happened to tdtd? Banned again? Lol.

Only darthsith could mistake that pic as supposing to be me instead of him.

DS, you need to pass whatever it is you're smoking so the rest of us can see what we want to see too.

Banned again? Yes I was banned for creating a stupid thread and allegedly trolling, i'm currently discussing it with Rex, but you're not helping your argument any by shifting attention to me just because Janus tore you a new one.

LOL, quite the sexy name, tdtd, if I may say so myself.

Thanks, getting Rex to listen to reason isn't exactly easy. But if he bans me again I'll get the hint, its just a star wars forum.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't Yoda sick and like 3-4 years away from his deathbed by the time of ANH?

Worst-case scenario, you could always pull a Numan.

Motoko, I remember you saying that your previous account was deleted, what was the name of it?

Originally posted by Gay Luke
Banned again? Yes I was banned for creating a stupid thread and allegedly trolling, i'm currently discussing it with Rex, but you're not helping your argument any by shifting attention to me just because Janus tore you a new one.



batman

A'ya.

Motoko, I remember you saying that your previous account was deleted, what was the name of it?

Lady A'ya.

I recognize that name. Stealthy type. Only posted like twice.

oh, okay, when you "A'ya", I was a bit confused. My bad.

"Obi-Wan, who at this point is the strongest good guy"

YES! GEORGE LUCAS IS RIGHT AND I HAVE THE PROOF!

HERE: "GUY": an informal term for a youth or man; "a nice guy"; "the guy's only doing it for some doll"

Here: "Man": the generic use of the word to refer to any human being; "it was every man for himself"

So.

Obi1 = Strongest guy.
Srongest guy = Strongest man.
Man = any human being.
Yoda != any human being

HARHARHARHAR.

Pass what you're smoking.

Shit. How many pages did this thread have?
Oh my. My thunder was stolen all before It even occurred.

Are PooPoo Mcgee and Gay Luke both tdtd?

yep

Haha, tdtd is starting to be like Numan.