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Speak your Mind on all the World Wars, Anything you want to talk about. Post it all here.


(First Thread Cha-Ching)



My First Question.

Was Adolf Hitler Really a Genius, but just with bad intentions?

He wasn't exactly a genius, but he didnt have bad intentions either, as he didnt really want all those jews to be killed in such a horrific way. He was, though, I believe, very mentally ill person








(second post! w00t)

Originally posted by rickyduck
He wasn't exactly a genius, but he didnt have bad intentions either, as he didnt really want all those jews to be killed in such a horrific way. He was, though, I believe, very mentally ill person








(second post! w00t)

I Think his plans and battles were planned out amazingly, but killing off the jews was too much.

Wow. This forum sucks.

No it does not suck. I agree Hitler killing of all the Jews was very crazy and just pushing it a bit too far. I am pleased after all this time, this forum is finally up and running. Long Live the History Forum.!!!!!!!!

Hitler? A genius?

Ever read his book?

Well, He was a good political entity, just Not the greatest when it comes to, well, Humatarianship. He was a whiny ***** If you ask me. Yes I have read his book, It's not all mad ravings though.

I always thought of Hitler as a Whiny little kid trying to impress his friends. leftright

Originally posted by Barker
I always thought of Hitler as a Whiny little kid trying to impress his friends. leftright

Sounds like barker

Originally posted by Dusty
Sounds like barker
Oh Yeeaaahh

*Humps Barker*

On topic:

Hitler was a genuis, but he wasn't as great as he thought he was. The Reason we won The invasion at normany was because Hitler's underlings were afraid to awake him so Hitler could call in for reinforcements. He was smart, but not smart enough to attack the soviet union in 1941 and declare war on everyone that decieded they were against his beliefs. I did a project on Hitler in the 5th grade. I still remember a lot about that project. Like, he had bad Parkinson's disease in his left hand. Which was the reason (in most of his pictures) you will see his left hand hidden, or being held by his right arm. He was developing Parkinson's Disease in his right hand. Which leads to the reason he has such a terrible signature..

http://www.liebermanparkinsonclinic.com/images/stories/historyparkinson/hitler%20signature.jpg

Originally posted by Barker
Oh Yeeaaahh

*Humps Barker*
Sounds like barker sounding like Barker.

Originally posted by Fatal Smoke
Sounds like barker sounding like Barker.

Attempt at being teh funnay?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b273/DTM921/FissionMailed.gif

Originally posted by Dusty
On topic:

Hitler was a genuis, but he wasn't as great as he thought he was. The Reason we won The invasion at normany was because Hitler's underlings were afraid to awake him so Hitler could call in for reinforcements. He was smart, but not smart enough to attack the soviet union in 1941 and declare war on everyone that decieded they were against his beliefs. I did a project on Hitler in the 5th grade. I still remember a lot about that project. Like, he had bad Parkinson's disease in his left hand. Which was the reason (in most of his pictures) you will see his left hand hidden, or being held by his right arm. He was developing Parkinson's Disease in his right hand. Which leads to the reason he has such a terrible signature..

http://www.liebermanparkinsonclinic.com/images/stories/historyparkinson/hitler%20signature.jpg
Wiki?

Originally posted by Dusty
Attempt at being teh funnay?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b273/DTM921/FissionMailed.gif
*Loses all self-esteem gained in this thread*

How much of the Death Ray had Japan completed before they lost?

Originally posted by Barker
Wiki?

That's a negative.

Originally posted by Tarvos
How much of the Death Ray had Japan completed before they lost?
?
Originally posted by Dusty
That's a negative.
Not even the Image?

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
I Think his plans and battles were planned out amazingly, but killing off the jews was too much.

Hitler was a poor general, and he never had any real training in tactics and strategy- he was a lance corporal in WWI. The idiot murdered 80 of his generals just in one year. He argued against the better judgment of the OKH and pushed aside good generals to advocate yes-men.

Originally posted by Dusty
Attempt at being teh funnay?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b273/DTM921/FissionMailed.gif

Hitler Would have won the war if he didn't send his troops to russia, He should have kept his alliance with them and headed for Canada/USA. If He Did, He would have won. By Going to Russia his people got cut off and froze to death.

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
Hitler Would have won the war if he didn't send his troops to russia, He should have kept his alliance with them and headed for Canada/USA. If He Did, He would have won. By Going to Russia his people got cut off and froze to death.

No, by getting the U.S. involved, Hitler bit off more than he could chew. Also, he gambled that his Japanese allies would be of use and they weren't; they could not phase the Russians from behind and they didn't really want to. Hitler's chance of successfully defeating the west would have been to launch the invasion of Britain, put aside fighting Russia, and then finish developing the v-3. With that kind of ballistic missile (Plus the nuclear technology the Third Reich nearly had), he could have called the shots to some degree- detonate a bomb in the skies over New York City, which sues America into some form of surrender. Then he could turn his wrath on Russia without the worry of any outer forces working from the west.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
No, by getting the U.S. involved, Hitler bit off more than he could chew. Also, he gambled that his Japanese allies would be of use and they weren't; they could not phase the Russians from behind and they didn't really want to. Hitler's chance of successfully defeating the west would have been to launch the invasion of Britain, put aside fighting Russia, and then finish developing the v-3. With that kind of ballistic missile (Plus the nuclear technology the Third Reich nearly had), he could have called the shots to some degree- detonate a bomb in the skies over New York City, which sues America into some form of surrender. Then he could turn his wrath on Russia without the worry of any outer forces working from the west.
Are you suggesting the third Reich almost had the atom bomb?

Yeah. Where do you think the Soviets got it from? Captured Nazi scientists.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yeah. Where do you think the Soviets got it from? Captured Nazi scientists.
They weren't even close to acheiving it. German scientists thought it would take several tons of uranium to get it to work. They hadn't even thought of the nuclear chain reaction.

Well yeah, they weren't at the head of the race, but they were ahead of the Soviets. And I wasn't saying they needed a nuclear warhead to strike over NYC- just a regular one and a showing of some sort of nuclear capability. Fear of bombing works just as well as actual bombing when it comes to the U.S.

Hitler was a terrible general. He switched from bombing the RAF to terror bombing the English cities. He was so close to wiping out Britain's air force, but by concentrating on attacking stubborn civilians, they had a chance to rebuild the RAF. The man was a fool.

That and not supporting Rommel in Africa. If he'd given the Afrika Corp some decent thought and attention, he'd likely have held on to North Africa much longer, maybe even permanently.

He overestimated his own troops, and underestimated the Russian winter, and the Russian's resolve to fight to the last man. Not having adequate clothing or supplies to make it throught the mud, blizzards and freezing temperatures, Hitler sent like 2 million men to die.

Believing that Japan would declare war on Russia was also a mistake, probably why he declared war on America. Also a mistake.

I feel that invading Poland so soon after annexing Austria and C. Slovakia was another mistake. He was starting to push even Chamberlain's buttons by then.

Originally posted by Fatal Smoke
?

Not even the Image?

Google.

Originally posted by Dusty
Google.
Gah!

I think the World Wars are my favorite periods of history to study.

Join the club.

Wow, I don't mean to sound insulting, but I'm questioning how much time you guys spent paying attention in history class.

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
I Think his plans and battles were planned out amazingly, but killing off the jews was too much.

Planned amazingly
................................................................................................Speer!

Now that was a man who planned things amazingly! If it wasn't for him the German War machine would have ground to a halt!

Goebells! There's another! If it wasn't for him would Hitler have won the 1933 elections? I think not!

So..Hitler... clever man but relied on many men!

Originally posted by H. S. 6
Hitler? A genius?

Ever read his book?
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Boring!

Ever read Goebbels? His was fanatical!

(His diaries)

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
Hitler Would have won the war if he didn't send his troops to russia, He should have kept his alliance with them and headed for Canada/USA. If He Did, He would have won. By Going to Russia his people got cut off and froze to death.

I'm so glad we read history books!

I'm so glad you triple posted!

Triple posting should be illegal.

I think part of the reason Hitler was so Brutal, is because when he was young, he was Abused, and Lived on the streets some

Yeah, so were a lot of kids.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Planned amazingly
................................................................................................Speer!

Now that was a man who planned things amazingly! If it wasn't for him the German War machine would have ground to a halt!

Goebells! There's another! If it wasn't for him would Hitler have won the 1933 elections? I think not!

So..Hitler... clever man but relied on many men!

Ole Al was not what you think he was. He was good. They all were though.

I Agree Rex.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Triple posting should be illegal.

Gs me..............................


On what point VV?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Gs me..............................


On what point VV?

World Wars is best History to study.

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
World Wars is best History to study.

I prefer the politics of the Nazi party opposed to the war itself...

Ditto.

I'd be the exact reverse. Nazi politics is boring. Anyways, in history I much prefer war over politics.

Normally I'd say the same, but after all the schooling and documentaries, I've grown rather weary of the war, instead turning to the political side. I'll get tired of that eventually though, and jump back over the fence.

I've always had a morbid fascination with war. I have collections of all the major war books, from Vom Krieg and Sun Tzu down to WWII Infantry Tactics and the U.S. Army Survival Guide. It's in my blood.

Politics in itself isn't really boring, I suppose. But in comparison with something far more grand in scale- war- it loses its appeal. Also, war is simply an extension of politics, so they're nearly inseparable.

Originally posted by H. S. 6
Hitler? A genius?

Ever read his book?

Yes I did and found it to be the ramblings of a mad man and a mass killer in the making. All the warning signs were there for all to see.

Yeah, Mein Kampf was easily one of the most telling reads of the century. It's like a Nazi how-to book.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Politics in itself isn't really boring, I suppose. But in comparison with something far more grand in scale- war- it loses its appeal. Also, war is simply an extension of politics, so they're nearly inseparable. That's true, without the politics, now war. Most of the time. All other wars are more interesting than their related politics, but I've spent far too much time looking at WWII, one day it just overloaded and I returned to studying the cozy aspects of Parliament and Congress.

Bah.

So does anyone like WWI over WWII? Silly question, but I figure I might as well try it.

Sadly I know jack shit about WW1. I read the article on WW2 on wikipedia though

Go to a movie store and try and find a copy of the movie "The Lost Battalion". You should be able to find it at Best Buy at least. Excellent movie on WWI.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So does anyone like WWI over WWII? Silly question, but I figure I might as well try it.
No, Not enough hate..

I liked All Quiet on the Western Front, the movie that is.

Which one? I have the one with that kid from that show with the mole on his face. Yes. I so kick ass with descriptions.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So does anyone like WWI over WWII? Silly question, but I figure I might as well try it.

Yeah, I "like" the two World Wars, the front lines and home front ofcourse!

I got a general understanding of WW1 the only parts that interest me are the battle of Jutland 1916 and the events of 1918. I am more into WW2 more interesting.

Did Hitler, REALLY kill himself?

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
Did Hitler, REALLY kill himself?

Yes he did.

Yeah, that's the story of everyone in that bunker.

Yep.

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
Did Hitler, REALLY kill himself?

No he's still alive... out there... waiting for you to fall asleep so he steal your mind and soul.

And Visa card.

World war two is a more interesting subject, world war one dose have some points that interest me but only to a point.

I Agree, it really is.

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
I Think his plans and battles were planned out amazingly

The Russian invasion plan was a mess from the start, Hitler made the error is trying to kill the Goose that laid the golden egg.

Bump.

Hilter was no general.

Well, iirc, it was Hitler who masterminded the encirclement in Kiev. The Germans took 600,000 to 800,000 Soviets in that engagement but this was also i think in the beginning of Operation Barbarossa, so no surprise there.

Man there a lot of What-if scenarios in WW2:

What if Rommel had the Panzers that he needed in Normandy (the Omaha landing, i think, almost failed because of them)?

What if Paulus went straight to the Caucus and cut-off the Russian oil supply instead of wasting his army in Stalingrad?

What if the Germans crossed the strait and invaded Britain (instead of sending the Luftwaffe and mining the strait to death - the Brits reversed the polarity of their ships which repel the mines and allow them to cross.)?

What if the US didnt impose a raw materials embargo on Imperial Japan, would they have started the war on the Pacific?

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
Was Adolf Hitler Really a Genius, but just with bad intentions?

wasn't Hitler addicted to meth?

And didn't he have Parkinsens?

Did he also not believe his general's advice that the Allies would attack Normandy?

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
Did Hitler, REALLY kill himself?
That's the testimony; none has arisen to disprove it.

Originally posted by DarkC
That's the testimony; none has arisen to disprove it.

True.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yeah. Where do you think the Soviets got it from? Captured Nazi scientists.

Also, the russians had a spy working on the Manhattan Project.

Originally posted by DarkC
That's the testimony; none has arisen to disprove it. Didn't they hide his body so the russians would get to it, but then they did, and they massacred his dead body. Him and Eva Braun

Originally posted by DarkC
That's the testimony; none has arisen to disprove it.

How Hitler met his end is still too this day has not been fully explain due to contradicting statements from those who surrendered, I think we can all agree Hitler died in the Bunker. As for his body why the Soviets did not put it on display like they did with Joseph Goebbels, why did the Soviet 1945 investigation end in a mess which resulted in another investigation. In 1946 Stalin launched Operation Myth which resulted in mixed findings.

I am not sure the Soviets ever got their hands on Hitler's body for one fact Hitler's body was taken up to the tee garden to be burnt but the war would continual for another 10 hours, the tee garden suffered a number of direct hits from Soviet artillery for that duration of time. I tend to think Hitler's body was destroyed, but for the Soviets they needed a body knowing how paranoid Stalin was about Hitler they may have lied to Stalin.

hmm

hitler was an idoit the only way he was powerful was three reasons one
he was a great speacker two he had unlimited mony for new war wepons. three the peapole of germany hated the treaty. ow and one more thing HE HAD THE CHANCE TO CREATE NECULAR WEPONS AND PUT THEM IN INTO V2 ROCKETS BUT HE DIDINT LIKE THE IDEA. so
clearly he is an idot HE COULD HAVE WON THE WAR. he also had a
meadical condison wich made him a slow thinker he is an idoit.

Originally posted by DUDEEAT


Hitler was hardly an idiot on the political stage, just look at his clever moves during 1935-1939. But as a war leader his thinking was questionable, He can not take the entire fault for the errors of war his Generals were just as bad at times. As for this idea of a V2 caring atomic warhead what rubbish, well the hell did you get that piece of information from.

German physicists, headed by the theoretical physicists Werner Heisenburg, who were developing the bomb had their calculations wrong and believed they needed far more U-235 was needed to build a bomb.

Germany could never have won the war for these four big reasons.
1. Their biggest weakness was oil
2. The logistical situation
3. Declaring war on Russia
4. Declaring war on America

The biggest problem of the four that Germany did was declare war on America and what a world of a difference it could have made it America was on the axis side.

America join Germany, no I can not see it.

or Germany joining America.

Russia won WW2; people and Americans in general over estimate America's importance in WW2(No offence by the way; i'm American).
No to reiterate facts here but the reasons the Americans, British and Canadians didn't get pushed back into the Ocean what the late movement of the Panzer forces in Pas de Calais because Hitler said they couldn't move without his orders. Most of the troops defending the beaches were illequipted and illtrained 'Ost Troops', Force Enlisted Ukrainians that just wanted to go home; with a few exception like the 352nd Infantry Division and of crouse the fanatical 12th Waffen-SS that fought like hell against the Allies inland.

And by the way people read some ****ing books before you tell you stupid ****ing comment of what you think. I started laughing when the guy of first page said how great a Military General Hitler was.

Don't beleive all of the shit you read in school; get some real History books. RZM Imports is a good place; the moderators wont let me post a link until I am 'more well known'.

Anyways I love the history involving the Second World War and the Eastern Front in particular.

"

Originally posted by Koenig
The Russian invasion plan was a mess from the start, Hitler made the error is trying to kill the Goose that laid the golden egg.


I just want to say one thing first I do not agree with Hitler being a good General; that is perhaps the most idiotic thing I have read on the forum

But saying Operation Barbossa was a 'mess from the start' is rediculous. Conqouring 500,000 sqaure miles from the start on June 22, 1941 to December 1941. The Blitz in Russia was just as effective at first as the Blitz in 1940 of 1941 in Europe.


But for sure invading Russia lost Hitler the war.

Hitler had to depend on most of his generals to do what needed to be done. I don't think hitler was smart enough to make good decisions on his own but he sure was good at convincing Germany of the "pure race'' and the extermination of the Jews. Germany's biggest mistake was invading Russia before when Germany made a deal with Stalin not to invade a certain part of Poland I think that was the country and that put them at odds with Germany and the final straw was when Germany invaded Russia in the early 40's.

Originally posted by Dogigi

But saying Operation Barbossa was a 'mess from the start' is rediculous.

Really?

Logistics planning was overly optimistic and totally unrealistic and planning factors were often determined by capability rather than actual requirements. For example, although the number of armoured divisions available for "Operation Barbarossa" had more than doubled from 15 in May 1940 to 32 in June 1941, the number of vehicles had only increased by a third from 2574 to 3332.5

Similarly, full wartime production was not in effect before the invasion. For a campaign of such magnitude, German factories were operating on a single shift basis and the under-utilisation of German industrial capacity resulted in shortfalls in essential combat materials. Production consistently lagged behind consumption. The Germans had been involved militarily in Norway, Belgium, France and the Balkans prior to the invasion of Soviet Union, resulting in major equipment shortfalls and damages. For a force which depended on machines for its offensive capability and its survival as none had depended to the same extent before, these were crippling defects. Many of the deficiencies had been foreseen and, as often as not, side-stepped or ignored on grounds of economy or because Hitler and many of his commanders had deluded themselves into believing the war would be won long before winter took its toll.

Transport assets within a theatre are major factors in campaign planning, both tactical and logistical. Being a key element in logistics, it can severely restrict operations. In Sinews of War, James Huston has highlighted that in a theatre of operation, a single authority, identical with the command authority should be responsible for logistics. This is again precisely what the German logistics system lacked - unity of command. The transportation responsibilities were split between the Chief of Transport (rail and inland waterways) and the Quartermaster-General (motor transport). This made an already bad situation worse. The German motor vehicle production could replace neither normal wear and tear nor keep up with combat losses.

As a result, the Wehrmacht conducted a major demotorization programme, procuring horses and wagons to offset the critical truck shortage. The transport of supplies became more dependent on horse, than motorised power. During 'Operation Barbarossa", the Wehrmacht relied on more than 625 000 horses.

Although the Germans committed themselves to a strategy that favoured rapid movement over long distances, heavy reliance was made on horses, which were used to pull everything from field kitchens to artillery pieces.

Logistics assets must be manoeuvrable. Support units must be sufficiently agile and mobile. But when a German division entered the fighting, it did so with 162 different types of soft skin vehicles, among the 21 major groupings of which it was composed. Most of these groupings had 17 different types of lorries within a unit establishment of 33 vehicles. The artillery regiment had 445 vehicles on establishment and there were 69 different types of lorries.

The problem of spares for these many and often unusually different types of machines can best be imagined. The lack of standardisation and the limited supply of spare parts was exacerbated by the lack of maintenance units within the invasion force. Heavy maintenance units remained in Germany or Poland based on the incorrect assumption of no requirement due to the short duration of the campaign.

By August 1941, the motorised supply system was exhausted. Ammunition and fuel, both of which were previously under-estimated were in limited supply. The reason was because the planning requirements were inaccurately based on the transportation capability rather operational consumption. Commanders were unable to exploit tactical advantage because of severe shortages of fuel and ammunition and as such resupply could not keep pace with advances. Tactical operations were curtailed for weeks waiting for resupply from the rear.

Food was another essential commodity that was in critical short supply. It was never an important priority to Hitler. When in late 1941, Hitler was told of the shortage in transport and that the system was only able to supply the armies in the field with one of the most urgent priorities and to choose between warm clothing, food and ammunition, Hitler chose ammunition. Shortfalls in the ration resupply system resulted in 'slaughter' platoons being formed within divisions as an expedient measure. Commanders in the field relied on foraging local livestock to feed the soldiers and this continued until such time when shortages resulted in troops eating their units' horses.

The Germans discovered that most roads in Russia, except only a few main highways, were turned into impassable mud tracks following even moderate rainfall. Therefore, railway, the only other main source of communication was heavily depended upon. This too was grossly inadequate. Not only were the main lines few in number and the branch line system poor, but the whole railway network used a broader gauge than that of Western European. This incompatibility between German and Russia rail systems brought about a tremendous strain upon the small amount of rolling stock which the German Army was neither able to seize nor to adapt. In winter, the railway life-line often failed and in the sector of the Army Group Centre, to quote just one example, only 9 out of 27 trains which were required daily to sustain the Front completed the journey.

The Russian winter is one main reason often cited by historians for the failure of the German offensive. No provision was made for extremely cold temperature in Russia which at times was as low as -40o F. Vehicle engines froze, artillery and rifles were rendered useless by frozen lubricants. Grease, oil and other lubricants with cold resistant properties were needed to keep vehicles and guns in action as the normal issues were found ineffective. While the Germans did not have these, the Russians in contrast had developed them years before. One critical failure was that no provision was made for cold weather clothing, as it was assumed that the campaign would be over before the onset of winter. Troops resorted to stuffing newspaper into summer uniform to keep warm. It was estimated that 14,000 amputations resulted from frostbite during the winter and the impact on the morale of the soldiers can be imagined.

By October 1941, Hitler's lines of communication stretched from 800 km initially to about 1600 km eventually. As the invasion advanced, the lines of communication became unmanageable and unable to satisfy continuing logistics demands. Front line units were soon operating on a hand-to-mouth existence. Stretched to its limit, the state of the German supply lines created a logistical nightmare. Conditions rapidly became sub-human, supply systems failed and it was more a question of surviving than of fighting.

On 6 Dec 1941, after 168 days of continuous combat and within 30km of Moscow, the most modern and powerful armed force in the world was nearly exhausted. They were half-starved and half-frozen; out of fuel and ammunition. The overstretched 1,600km supply lines, exacerbated by severe transportation and weather problems, had proven to be grossly ineffective. The result was the Wehrmacht's inability to sustain the battle. Despite their precarious condition, the disciplined Wehrmacht tried desperately to reach Moscow. During the final stage, Stalin's Red Army counter-attacked, forcing a hasty retreat of Hitler's forces. Although the war was to continue a few more years, this failure, as the first German defeat in the Russian war, had a devastating impact on the Germans.

The Wehrmacht's greatest resupply failures can be summarised as follows: a) its inability to sustain the force; b) excessive long lines of communications, c) over dependence on rail roads, d) severe shortfall in motor transport capability, and e) untrafficable roads causing a total collapse of the supply system resulting in diversions of supplies, hoarding and total lack of confidence in the supply system as resupply could not sustain the battle.

Another fact the Wermarcht was only one third motorized, unlike the Einsatzgruppen who were fully motorised just goes to show the real war was against the Jews.

Dogigi, have a read of this from your own country man.

The Soviet-German War 1941-1945:
Myths and Realities: A Survey Essay
By David M. Glantz

When the completely copy once person's point of view it's nice to give them credit. Does it make you smart by posting somebody else's work so poeple think you know a lot? I cannot post the link becasue again I am not more well known. I can PM anybody that wants to see it though. By the way the article you copied was about the faluire of the logistics of Operation Barbarossa.

By the way I never said the Wehrmacht(By the way, that's the real spelling) was completely motorized so why haggle me about that?

I've ready the book by Glantz; I find it funny when you refer to a book that is about the whole entire Russo-German War when we are talking Operation Barbarossa.

I also find it laughable that you refer a book that is mostly 'What If'

Also please read more than one book about a certain subject becasue poeple disagree.








Originally posted by Koenig
Really?

Logistics planning was overly optimistic and totally unrealistic and planning factors were often determined by capability rather than actual requirements. For example, although the number of armoured divisions available for "Operation Barbarossa" had more than doubled from 15 in May 1940 to 32 in June 1941, the number of vehicles had only increased by a third from 2574 to 3332.5

Similarly, full wartime production was not in effect before the invasion. For a campaign of such magnitude, German factories were operating on a single shift basis and the under-utilisation of German industrial capacity resulted in shortfalls in essential combat materials. Production consistently lagged behind consumption. The Germans had been involved militarily in Norway, Belgium, France and the Balkans prior to the invasion of Soviet Union, resulting in major equipment shortfalls and damages. For a force which depended on machines for its offensive capability and its survival as none had depended to the same extent before, these were crippling defects. Many of the deficiencies had been foreseen and, as often as not, side-stepped or ignored on grounds of economy or because Hitler and many of his commanders had deluded themselves into believing the war would be won long before winter took its toll.

Transport assets within a theatre are major factors in campaign planning, both tactical and logistical. Being a key element in logistics, it can severely restrict operations. In Sinews of War, James Huston has highlighted that in a theatre of operation, a single authority, identical with the command authority should be responsible for logistics. This is again precisely what the German logistics system lacked - unity of command. The transportation responsibilities were split between the Chief of Transport (rail and inland waterways) and the Quartermaster-General (motor transport). This made an already bad situation worse. The German motor vehicle production could replace neither normal wear and tear nor keep up with combat losses.

As a result, the Wehrmacht conducted a major demotorization programme, procuring horses and wagons to offset the critical truck shortage. The transport of supplies became more dependent on horse, than motorised power. During 'Operation Barbarossa", the Wehrmacht relied on more than 625 000 horses.

Although the Germans committed themselves to a strategy that favoured rapid movement over long distances, heavy reliance was made on horses, which were used to pull everything from field kitchens to artillery pieces.

Logistics assets must be manoeuvrable. Support units must be sufficiently agile and mobile. But when a German division entered the fighting, it did so with 162 different types of soft skin vehicles, among the 21 major groupings of which it was composed. Most of these groupings had 17 different types of lorries within a unit establishment of 33 vehicles. The artillery regiment had 445 vehicles on establishment and there were 69 different types of lorries.

The problem of spares for these many and often unusually different types of machines can best be imagined. The lack of standardisation and the limited supply of spare parts was exacerbated by the lack of maintenance units within the invasion force. Heavy maintenance units remained in Germany or Poland based on the incorrect assumption of no requirement due to the short duration of the campaign.

By August 1941, the motorised supply system was exhausted. Ammunition and fuel, both of which were previously under-estimated were in limited supply. The reason was because the planning requirements were inaccurately based on the transportation capability rather operational consumption. Commanders were unable to exploit tactical advantage because of severe shortages of fuel and ammunition and as such resupply could not keep pace with advances. Tactical operations were curtailed for weeks waiting for resupply from the rear.

Food was another essential commodity that was in critical short supply. It was never an important priority to Hitler. When in late 1941, Hitler was told of the shortage in transport and that the system was only able to supply the armies in the field with one of the most urgent priorities and to choose between warm clothing, food and ammunition, Hitler chose ammunition. Shortfalls in the ration resupply system resulted in 'slaughter' platoons being formed within divisions as an expedient measure. Commanders in the field relied on foraging local livestock to feed the soldiers and this continued until such time when shortages resulted in troops eating their units' horses.

The Germans discovered that most roads in Russia, except only a few main highways, were turned into impassable mud tracks following even moderate rainfall. Therefore, railway, the only other main source of communication was heavily depended upon. This too was grossly inadequate. Not only were the main lines few in number and the branch line system poor, but the whole railway network used a broader gauge than that of Western European. This incompatibility between German and Russia rail systems brought about a tremendous strain upon the small amount of rolling stock which the German Army was neither able to seize nor to adapt. In winter, the railway life-line often failed and in the sector of the Army Group Centre, to quote just one example, only 9 out of 27 trains which were required daily to sustain the Front completed the journey.

The Russian winter is one main reason often cited by historians for the failure of the German offensive. No provision was made for extremely cold temperature in Russia which at times was as low as -40o F. Vehicle engines froze, artillery and rifles were rendered useless by frozen lubricants. Grease, oil and other lubricants with cold resistant properties were needed to keep vehicles and guns in action as the normal issues were found ineffective. While the Germans did not have these, the Russians in contrast had developed them years before. One critical failure was that no provision was made for cold weather clothing, as it was assumed that the campaign would be over before the onset of winter. Troops resorted to stuffing newspaper into summer uniform to keep warm. It was estimated that 14,000 amputations resulted from frostbite during the winter and the impact on the morale of the soldiers can be imagined.

By October 1941, Hitler's lines of communication stretched from 800 km initially to about 1600 km eventually. As the invasion advanced, the lines of communication became unmanageable and unable to satisfy continuing logistics demands. Front line units were soon operating on a hand-to-mouth existence. Stretched to its limit, the state of the German supply lines created a logistical nightmare. Conditions rapidly became sub-human, supply systems failed and it was more a question of surviving than of fighting.

On 6 Dec 1941, after 168 days of continuous combat and within 30km of Moscow, the most modern and powerful armed force in the world was nearly exhausted. They were half-starved and half-frozen; out of fuel and ammunition. The overstretched 1,600km supply lines, exacerbated by severe transportation and weather problems, had proven to be grossly ineffective. The result was the Wehrmacht's inability to sustain the battle. Despite their precarious condition, the disciplined Wehrmacht tried desperately to reach Moscow. During the final stage, Stalin's Red Army counter-attacked, forcing a hasty retreat of Hitler's forces. Although the war was to continue a few more years, this failure, as the first German defeat in the Russian war, had a devastating impact on the Germans.

The Wehrmacht's greatest resupply failures can be summarised as follows: a) its inability to sustain the force; b) excessive long lines of communications, c) over dependence on rail roads, d) severe shortfall in motor transport capability, and e) untrafficable roads causing a total collapse of the supply system resulting in diversions of supplies, hoarding and total lack of confidence in the supply system as resupply could not sustain the battle.

Point one, I lost the link to the article and no I was not being smart, I only had part of the article at hand so I posted it, due to the fact I had not the author's name on that part of the article I could not post it, I was going to search for it all the next day. It was late at night here when I put the post up. If you gave me a chance to post the link and not get on your high horse and kick up a stink about it, I was going to update my post and make it clear to everyone. I have now got the link and I shall post it, so everyone can read the article in full.

Point two, I read a lot of books on the subject and yes everyone has a view point.

Here's the link to the article.
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/safti/pointer/back/journals/1998/Vol24_2/4.htm

For the attention of everyone my post showing part of an article was not complete and if this miss lead anyone, I apologise for the error. I have contacted a friend who was able to supply me with the link so everyone can read the article in full.

Bump

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
Bump

I guess no one cares about any World Wars.

I think that what's ironic about Hitler having Parkinson's Disease is that the Nazis wanted to exterminate everyone who had a disease. Or at least, that's what I heard.

yea but the iron goes further Hitler is exactly the opposite of the quintessential Arian Race: he's small, weak, brown haired and I think brown eyed (not sure about the last one)

Not sure how many of you are aware of this...

In the early 1970s, the military bigwigs at Sandhurst (where British officers train) ran a very complex military wargame. It fought the battles of Operation 'Sealion', aka the German invasion of Britain once the RAF had been wiped out (which of course, they weren't).

The interesting thing about this wargame wasn't the fact that they employed some of the best probability theorists and statisticians around to run the results of battles; but that they actually gathered the British and German commanders who were still alive and comptis mentus who would have been opposing each other 30-odd years before.

Now, the RAF then in the wargame had been wiped out, but the complex systems of fortifications and defences which criss-crossed Britain still remained, including the GHQ(?) line which circled from Bristol, around London and up towards Edinburgh. This was designed as the main British defensive position should it be invaded. There were countless other smaller lines all over the country. You can still see evidence of these in the British countryside which are still dotted with pillboxes, etc.

So, Sealion began with massive bombardments, etc, and Germans creating a channel in the channel(!) using mines. The Royal Navy under threat from this bombardment retreated to Scapa Flow in Scotland. Then the Germans began the invasion using seaborne and airborne landings. British beach defences did their job, holding up the Germans, but the first day or two saw the Germans pushing up through Sussex and Kent, held up by the few regular troops stationed in those counties and by the numerous Home Guard units. On day 3 the Germans hit the first of these 'Stop lines' known as the 'Winston line' which was a line of fortification further South of the GHQ line. It was here that the tide turned. The Navy had left Scapa Flow once the actual invasion had begun, and now arrived back in the Channel, and regular troops from the North started to flood the defences of the Winston line. Over the next few days a mixture of the Navy disrupting German supply and strength of defence of the Winston line turned the tide strongly back in Britain's favour. After 7-10 days, the German commanders ordered the withdrawal but only about 25% of German forces managed to get back to France in a German 'Dunkirk'. The German's hadn't managed to break the first of the British Stop lines and hadn't even got as far as the main GHQ line.

As I said, I'm not sure how many of you know this, but I thought it was interesting.

I have long been certain that German invasion of the UK was impossible, and in great part due to the Naval situation.

I mean, look how long it took the Allies to organmise a proper invasion of Europe. Even with overwhelming material advantage, the D-Day landdings took years to organise and were a close run thing, done with the latest equipment, total naval superiority and purpose-built landing craft.

The Germans had a tiny Navy and a load of crappy wooden barges. Anyone who wants to take a barge across the Channel on a good, calm day is a fool- it is nasty water. Anyone who wants to take a whole fleet of them across, in a 12 hour period almost certainly being dark at some point, with the enemy firing at you and with enemy ships able to sink yours just by being near them (the wash would flip them over)... is insane.

Adolf Galland, whose job it would have been to control the Luftwaffe in the UK, never had any doubt at all- that the German plans to invade the UK were never serious, and the army had chucked the whole thing onto Goering in the hope he could bomb the UK into giving up and making a deal. Which was also silly.

The Germans were looking East. As has happened to a lot of would-be conquerors over time, it was just too damn inconvenient to invade the UK. It couldn't really be done, even if they had annihilated our air force. And if they HAD wanted to- well, by the target dates, the ability of our air force to defend the Channel was virtually zero anyway; before the bombing of London started we had been forced to evacuate our coastal airfields.

None of this, of course, is to deny the bravery and skill of the pilots of the RAF- or even to deny how important their victory was. Their victory showed that Hitler could be stopped, which makes it one of the most vital in the war at any time Their victory also gave us control over our own skies. The Germans might not have been able to invade with control, but how many more of our people would have died, with Germans roaming freely? How hard to organise Overlord with the Luftwaffe triumphant over every staging camp?

The Battle of Britain is a legend and no myth. The only myth is that they prevented the immediate conquest of Britain. That was never on the cards- the Germans couldn't do it.

If you want to point at what saved the UK in Word War II, it was the Battle of the Atlantic. The UK would have looked silly without food.

nice posts guys, good read

There was a three part documentary on channel four here in the UK early this year all about Sealion, Germany would never had succeeded in a successful invasion of England. But it did serve one thing the fear of an invasion right up to mid June 1941 only after Hitler attacked Russia the threat was gone. In many ways this was a correct decision by Hitler to postpone then latter to cancel Sealion.

Bump

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Hitler was a poor general, and he never had any real training in tactics and strategy- he was a lance corporal in WWI. The idiot murdered 80 of his generals just in one year. He argued against the better judgment of the OKH and pushed aside good generals to advocate yes-men. %100
Hitler was in many aspects a gambler, went against conventional wisdom of his generals. It's amazing that for a while he actually succeeded.

Quiet You Two.

Hitlers plan were Genius.

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
Hitlers plan were Genius.

Sure just like Kursk 1943

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
Quiet You Two.

Hitlers plan were Genius.

/sarcasm


Yeah and like not letting Paulus withdraw from Stalingrad.

Originally posted by Dogigi
/sarcasm


Yeah and like not letting Paulus withdraw from Stalingrad.

Quote Hitler: "That's the last bloody General I promote in this war."

Really.

For a long time hitler was out-thinking and outmaneuvering his opponents... if he hadn't let his pride get in the way (like in russia), he could have very easily won the war... he was an incredibly talented military leader...

Originally posted by pr1983
For a long time hitler was out-thinking and outmaneuvering his opponents... if he hadn't let his pride get in the way (like in russia), he could have very easily won the war... he was an incredibly talented military leader...

w00t

Amen to that.

Not really...

Hitler just had excellent political influence. Despite what various records or whatever say, I believe that most of Hitlers key triumphs were due to his subordinates.

Originally posted by pr1983
he was an incredibly talented military leader...

A world war one corporal who had no real understanding.

Originally posted by Koenig
A world war one corporal who had no real understanding.


My sediments exactly. And what was with the 'Oh really?', It was a bad thing to not let Paulus pull out of Stalingrad...just shows how Hitler killed his own men with politics.

The only reason Hitlers plans at the end where not near as good as his first ones was because his brain was LITERALLY rotting. He had Syphilis, and he wanted to conquer Europe before he died of it. He tried to rush the end. If he had focused all his military and not gone after Russia during the Ceasefire, He would most definitely have taken control of Europe.

Not if the U.S. could do anything about it.

With Germany controlling Europe, the US would not have compaired. The United Staes would not have been able to take out Germany if it controlled Europe.

Well, if Germany had control of Europe it wouldn't be entirely vital. Not all of Europe was antisemitic and would be willing to fight or do anything for Germany. I wouldn't doubt that Allied powers could still make it through the war even though 'Germany would have control of Europe'.

That's just my opinion, though.

Originally posted by Mithlond
Not sure how many of you are aware of this...

In the early 1970s, the military bigwigs at Sandhurst (where British officers train) ran a very complex military wargame. It fought the battles of Operation 'Sealion', aka the German invasion of Britain once the RAF had been wiped out (which of course, they weren't).

The interesting thing about this wargame wasn't the fact that they employed some of the best probability theorists and statisticians around to run the results of battles; but that they actually gathered the British and German commanders who were still alive and comptis mentus who would have been opposing each other 30-odd years before.

Now, the RAF then in the wargame had been wiped out, but the complex systems of fortifications and defences which criss-crossed Britain still remained, including the GHQ(?) line which circled from Bristol, around London and up towards Edinburgh. This was designed as the main British defensive position should it be invaded. There were countless other smaller lines all over the country. You can still see evidence of these in the British countryside which are still dotted with pillboxes, etc.

So, Sealion began with massive bombardments, etc, and Germans creating a channel in the channel(!) using mines. The Royal Navy under threat from this bombardment retreated to Scapa Flow in Scotland. Then the Germans began the invasion using seaborne and airborne landings. British beach defences did their job, holding up the Germans, but the first day or two saw the Germans pushing up through Sussex and Kent, held up by the few regular troops stationed in those counties and by the numerous Home Guard units. On day 3 the Germans hit the first of these 'Stop lines' known as the 'Winston line' which was a line of fortification further South of the GHQ line. It was here that the tide turned. The Navy had left Scapa Flow once the actual invasion had begun, and now arrived back in the Channel, and regular troops from the North started to flood the defences of the Winston line. Over the next few days a mixture of the Navy disrupting German supply and strength of defence of the Winston line turned the tide strongly back in Britain's favour. After 7-10 days, the German commanders ordered the withdrawal but only about 25% of German forces managed to get back to France in a German 'Dunkirk'. The German's hadn't managed to break the first of the British Stop lines and hadn't even got as far as the main GHQ line.

As I said, I'm not sure how many of you know this, but I thought it was interesting.



I did not know that, wonderful information and interesting stuff. They should do more "what if" combat scenerios.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Hitler was a poor general, and he never had any real training in tactics and strategy- he was a lance corporal in WWI. The idiot murdered 80 of his generals just in one year. He argued against the better judgment of the OKH and pushed aside good generals to advocate yes-men.


I agree but he was incredibly lucky. The life expectancy of someone with his role in the army was a few days, he lasted four years

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
With Germany controlling Europe, the US would not have compaired. The United Staes would not have been able to take out Germany if it controlled Europe.

I agree completely, if not for the fact of their "brilliant" idea of trying to attack Russia in winter. They might've held the US off anyways.

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
With Germany controlling Europe, the US would not have compaired. The United Staes would not have been able to take out Germany if it controlled Europe.

America developed the A-Bomb and if they started to drop a few of them on main land Europe, Hitler would of had big problems due to the fact German scientists got there sums wrong and could never have built the bomb. Another possible situation would have been some sort of cold war?

Originally posted by Koenig
America developed the A-Bomb and if they started to drop a few of them on main land Europe, Hitler would of had big problems due to the fact German scientists got there sums wrong and could never have built the bomb. Another possible situation would have been some sort of cold war?

There's no way we would have dropped an A-Bomb in Europe. We had way too many scattered allies over there. Too risky. Where as Asia, however...

Originally posted by Dusty
There's no way we would have dropped an A-Bomb in Europe. We had way too many scattered allies over there. Too risky. Where as Asia, however...

Exactly.

Well it will be a cold war then.

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