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Dooku has a Spanish rapier and Windu has a katana.--NO Force powers.

I think Windu would win because his style is physically stronger, has better leverage, and a more firm grip.

Setting: A dojo so they have a large amount of space in which to fight and don't have to worry about falling off any edges. Not to metion, it's quite a fitting place.

This would be an interesting fight actually...

That's why I made the thread.

I think in a sense this is ridiculous... Lightsaber fighting practices more on hitting the broad side of the blade, not thrusting like a rapier. And a katana has far more weight behind it and stability. You might as well give Dooku a toothpick.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I think in a sense this is ridiculous... Lightsaber fighting practices more on hitting the broad side of the blade, not thrusting like a rapier. And a katana has far more weight behind it and stability. You might as well give Dooku a toothpick.

I thought rapiers were a lot stronger than people thought they were.

^Agreed. My personal opinion is that Dooku would beat Mace in any fight but this is pretty ridiculous.

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
I thought rapiers were a lot stronger than people thought they were.

Depends. Early Spanish ones and sword-rapiers were. Classic ones weren't.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
My personal opinion is that Dooku would beat Mace in any fight

That's a suprise.

Actually theres a reason why the French suck so much...

Crappy weapons.

The rapier is much to flimsy to block a REAL sword. If MAce uses his awsome force strength which only black people can use, )Its a special power) he'll literley bend Dooku's Rapeir in half. Also as janus said earlier light-sabres are used more to slice then stab, even with Dooku's style you'll notice he uses, 99 percent of the time, slices.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Depends. Early Spanish ones and sword-rapiers were. Classic ones weren't.

That's what I was reffering to.--Not one of those flimsy Olympic ones, obviously.

Well, the point is that the oldest Spanish ones still cut, as do the sword-rapiers. Others are for thrusting only. I have a few and they're not shitty fencing ones either.

actually,m its not even a force power, its just..natural. Hell I have it. Anyhoo Mace will drop his katan and use hsi uber negrolicious ***** slap repesdetly, then when the tiem is right he'll unleash a gust of yo'momma jokes follwoed up with an upper cut. Dooku will have a ehart attack.

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
actually,m its not even a force power, its just..natural. Hell I have it. Anyhoo Mace will drop his katan and use hsi uber negrolicious ***** slap repesdetly, then when the tiem is right he'll unleash a gust of yo'momma jokes follwoed up with an upper cut. Dooku will have a ehart attack.

No Dooku will just step to the side to dodge it and Mace will fall out the window.

to bad we're in a dojo and the chances of him falling out a window are scare. No, Dooku will have his heart attack, just as the Emperor planned...

Dooku is to all powerful to have a heart attack. Mace will fall out the window, just like when he got thrown out the window by Sids.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku is to all powerful to have a heart attack. Mace will fall out the window, just like when he got thrown out the window by Sids.

Fanboy of Dooku much? I hope you're joking, what windows would he be falling out and a 1,000 foot (or whatever) plunge?

If that even were to happen, he'd fall through the screens, and onto the outside, which I haven't heard of many dojos that are placed on cliffs, let alone without having something right outside, like a walk-way or something of the like.

But Mace being the clumsy bastard he is, will crack his head open on the pavement. Then Dooku and his Dark Acolytes would laugh at him before going and having dinner with Sids.

Were Sids will propmtly have Dooku's balls cut off for killing his Pimp.

Dooku is far to quick for Sids and would stab him in the chest before Sids coud even ignite his lightsaber. He would then declare himself supreme ruler and smoke expensive cigars and drink expensive martinis for the rest of his days, while demanding the respect he deserves.

So I take it nobody else knows anything about swordsmanship here?

Well janus I know a bit about swordsmanship other than the crap I just posted. I'm just lazy.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So I take it nobody else knows anything about swordsmanship here?

Well I have been doing a lot of research into Japanese swordplay (for Rayvann) but that's about all I know...

I know jack shit about fighting with a rapier... only that you thrust a lot... I think.

Well, whatever you folks can contribute. This is actually a very interesting thread, with a new spin on the battle at hand.

Basically, Dooku armed with a sword-rapier or Spanish rapier versus Mace Windu with a katana. This works with their respective styles to a degree, and it's an interesting "Which one is superior in this case" perspective.

I thought we already explained this,your underestimating Mace and overestimating Dooku,he isn't all powerful,Dooku maybe a good duelist,but if he couldn't keep up with Anakin in ROTS,what chance does he have against Mace?Mace is the more powerful duelist in this case,sure he was beaten by Dooku ibn a sparring match,but that was wayyy before Mace learned Vaapad,and remeber,Dooku is old,he may have skill and wisdom with age,but with age also comes frailness,now,I'm not trying to be a Mace fanboy,but Mace would overwelm Dooku just like he did Sids.And like in Shatterpoint and Clone Wars,Mace is willing to use Dark Side powers if neccessary,and as explained again in Shatterpoint,he loves to fightAnd he also has considerable knowledge of the Dark side.

Dooku isnt likely to know what a metal sword is. And nether does mace.


An equal fight. Give a modern special forces some muskets and arm the enemy same stuff. None of their training does them much good as the tactics are completely incompatible with these kind of weapons.

I think you are all underestimating Dooku because of his age. Yes age plays a part but only to the extent of the person getting tired easily. Dookus style makes up for that by using minimum energy. Just because Mace can use the darkside doesnt mean he has mastered it like Dooku has.

How od we know he mastered it? Whoop dee f*cking doo he can use sith lightning. What else does he use in the movies? Force push...yeah. Dooku's "mastery of the dark side" is an unknown factor.

Dookus darkside abilities are still more advanced than maces which would mean it is eaier for the Count to counter Maces dark side attacks

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dookus darkside abilities are still more advanced than maces which would mean it is eaier for the Count to counter Maces dark side attacks


Proof?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
And the lightsaber styles are similar to real fighting forms... Why? Because that's what they're based on, and a human being can only wave a stick so many ways.

True... although I was referring to a lightsaber's weightlessness compared to a sword.

Because Dooku is a sith lord and Mace is not, Blaxican Hydra. Dooku has embraced the darkside.

Uh, aren't rapiers far more effective than Katanas? Katanas actually suck, compared to Middle-Ages european broad/bastard swords. I'd assume rapiers to be more efficient than those since they replaced them.

Or people just got lazier

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Uh, aren't rapiers far more effective than Katanas? Katanas actually suck, compared to Middle-Ages european broad/bastard swords. I'd assume rapiers to be more efficient than those since they replaced them.

Or people just got lazier

Dude did you like not read my post? Katana's do not "suck" they are just suited for a differnt style of fighting.

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
True... although I was referring to a lightsaber's weightlessness compared to a sword.

Except that the lightsaber DOES have weight- in the handle. If anything, it'd be far more natural to use a regular blade than one without any weight in the handle. Also, I seem to recall that lightsaber blades have devices to give them some measure of counter balance. This would certainly explain why the in-movie fights clearly work just as if the lightsabers had weight in the blade.



A skilled rapier master could probably hit a samurai six times before the samurai got to hit him once, but in general use, it was nullifed by any serious armor.

But I agree- the Japanese katana gets way too much hype, and the myth that all European blades suck is ridiculous. I was in Barnes and Nobles today and I found like 120 books on Samurai and their martial arts, and exactly NONE on fencing or European swordplay. Not even some copies of the Florentine or Germanic works. Talk about ridiculous. I didn't realize the Japanese had stock in B & N.

I think Katanas alledged power comes from Japanese RPG "badasses" metrosexuals wielding Katanas in a futuristic environment and pwning everyone effortlessly.

I read something interesting a while ago about how bad Katanas are compared to Middle Aged European swords... I'll see if I can find it...

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
I think Katanas alledged power comes from Japanese RPG "badasses" metrosexuals wielding Katanas in a futuristic environment and pwning everyone effortlessly.

I read something interesting a while ago about how bad Katanas are compared to Middle Aged European swords... I'll see if I can find it...

Katana's are shitty in certain situations true enough... really it depends on how the sword is being used. Katana's are not meant for extened duels... they are meant to kill and to kill fast.

lmao...

Japanese RPG badass metrosexuals? Sounds like a band name.

Woah Dooku was a sith? Wowzorz. Well the "most pwoerful force user in history" was a ith as well ,good thing it did him...

There is still no evidence how "in-tune" with the foce Dooku actually was. So saying hes greater in the force than mace is just an asusmption, as is Mace being "greater" in the force than Dooku.

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
Woah Dooku was a sith? Wowzorz. Well the "most pwoerful force user in history" was a ith as well ,good thing it did him...

There is still no evidence how "in-tune" with the foce Dooku actually was. So saying hes greater in the force than mace is just an asusmption, as is Mace being "greater" in the force than Dooku.

There is a method to my madness, I shall explain this later.

But... you can't explain madness- it's beyond reason.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
But... you can't explain madness- it's beyond reason.

Never tell this to Torvus...

I know. Keep this our secret. Where is he lately, btw?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I know. Keep this our secret. Where is he lately, btw?

Grounded.

Damn. Parentpwnt.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Damn. Parentpwnt.

Well he deserved it... you don't just use your parent's credit card and expect to get away without consequenses.

Although it was stupid of his mom to give him her credit card number.

Wow... WTF?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Wow... WTF?

He only spent $15 but it was enough to piss his mom off, hell I'd be pissed off if I found out my kid (not that I have one) just decided to use my credit card like he/she had any right.

So would I.

No you wouldnt.

Yes, he would. I for sure would. Not that im a parent yet either though.

No he wouldn't.

I would. I'd lock him in the basement with a loaf of bread and a gallon of water for a week. Rat bastard. 15 bucks takes like.... an hour and five minutes of work or something.

Wow...



*Eyes widen*

I don't know you anymore!




*Gets ownded*


http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/Ownded.jpg

Don't be hatin', dude.

Dont be hatin on what? Padme? eh, I hated here in all the movies anyway. Leah was just SOOOO much better than hurt...

She has to have some of the worst lines and acting in the PT. And that's really saying something.

yes yes..but what should I not be hatin on? That is the question.

I dunno. Just don't be hatin'.

Man this thread got way off topic...

It's too deep a topic for the basic crowd here.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
It's too deep a topic for the basic crowd here.

A shame... it was an interesting idea.

I think so.

Meh, I'm just at the epitome of lazyness....

Nice screen name...

I know, I take uberness to the next level...

Rapier fighting is very similar to the first form of fencing, which is mainly stabbing and not slashing. Dooku's style (and all lightsaber styles) mainly slash and attack with the side of the saber/blade, not the tip. So Dooku wouldn't be familiar with how to fight with rapiers. However fighting with katanas is very similar to lightsabers mainly because you chop or slash with the side of the blade, and do not stab. Also, rapiers while still "sturdy" tend to be flimsier than a katana.

Therefore, I say Mace wins.

I always thought that Dookus Makashi style was based on fencing. I could be wrong however. Mace MIGHT win this fight but in a duel with lightsabers Dooku would wtf pwn Mace while blindfolded and both his arms tied behind his back!!!

Originally posted by PurpleSaber
Rapier fighting is very similar to the first form of fencing, which is mainly stabbing and not slashing. Dooku's style (and all lightsaber styles) mainly slash and attack with the side of the saber/blade, not the tip. So Dooku wouldn't be familiar with how to fight with rapiers. However fighting with katanas is very similar to lightsabers mainly because you chop or slash with the side of the blade, and do not stab. Also, rapiers while still "sturdy" tend to be flimsier than a katana.

Therefore, I say Mace wins.

It helps if you read.

Firstly, Dooku's style is based on Spanish fencing. Early Spanish rapiers were more like sword-rapiers than those thin French pig-stickers you see in the Three Musketeers. So he's actually got a natural advantage here.

Meanwhile, Mace's angles of attack narrow down to 8 directions, which drastically changes his fighting style.

I used to take a fencing class, and in fencing you mainly parry and then stab at the torso. You try to keep your sword pointed at the opponent most of the time. Dooku however slashes and does lots of side attacks and swipes. The only way Dooku's style is similar to Spanish fencing is that it is more elegant than other lightsaber forms, and he uses one hand.

Btw, I like your Hugh Laurie sig.

Thank you.

But keep in mind not all fencing is the epee and the rapier. The saber is equally used.

And to elaborate on that, fencing is also a generic term applied to European fighting with the sword. If you check into the history of the rapier, you see that it was based on a Spanish blade that cut as well as it stabbed.

Weren't Spanish rapiers similar to swords that were used in the Civil War? The ones used by the cavalry and generals. Because I have a sword from the Civil War and I always thought that was the kind of sword used by the French and Spanish.

Here's an early Spanish rapier...

http://www.deltin.net/5164.jpg

Versus a Civil War calvary saber.

http://afigures.com/g/albums/MONONOFU/13.jpg

They look exactly the same . . .




Sarcasm is such a beautiful thing!

Both of those swords are made for fencing. (Keep in mind when I say fencing, I am talking about form one where you mainly stab and lunge) While it is possible to use Dooku's style of Makashi with those, it would be quite ineffective against a sword such as a katana. They are flimsier.

They would also be ineffective for blocking a katana. They barely have any broad side and might break if Mace put enough weight into the attack.

This is very similar to the Civil War sword I have only without the strings.

Good topic, but I'm more inclined to say that Dooku wins.

Dooku's natural style, as many have pointed out is basically a slightly adapted fencing style, with lots of neat cuts and stabs. Dooku will have the least trouble adapting his fighting style. He'll also be the one that fights the most efficiently.

Mace's natural style requires a lot of wide swings. Mace is not going to be able to strike as fast a Dooku, nor parry any stabbing thrusts with any manner of ease.

Mace has the advantage of a stronger blade, however.

This'll be hard, but I could see Dooku taking this...

Originally posted by PurpleSaber
Both of those swords are made for fencing. (Keep in mind when I say fencing, I am talking about form one where you mainly stab and lunge) While it is possible to use Dooku's style of Makashi with those, it would be quite ineffective against a sword such as a katana. They are flimsier.

They would also be ineffective for blocking a katana. They barely have any broad side and might break if Mace put enough weight into the attack.

No, actually they're not. The top blade (Spanish rapier) is not adapted for the fencing styles you may be familiar with today (And that's because it predates them by hundreds of years.) The weapon was initially made by peasants, and was sharpened on the sides, making it useable for sideways cuts as well as thrusting. The main purpose of the blade was to make swordplay depend less on extensive physical strength and more on speed of hand and speed of mind. Also, the range gives the amateur a comfortable barrier between himself and the opponent. Later on, this evolved into the fencing form we see today. But what Dooku uses is based more on the original classic form, which DOES include cuts and deflection.

Now, I'm not sure where you concluded that a katana was stronger than a rapier (Cuz it's not- some of the best steelmakers in the western world come from Toledo, Spain) but that's not the case. Also, while Mace Windu is forced to move his entire top half with each strike (Keep in mind, swinging a katana is a lot like swinging a reaper- you have to swing from the hips more often than not), Dooku can concentrate on footwork, keep a comfortable barrier between him and Mace, and literally pick him apart. And your average katana has a smaller range than your average rapier, too.

Add that to the fact that Mace has to really adapt to a limited style, and you have Dooku triumphing in this case.

wow a spanish rapier suit dooku perfectly god damn he would stab mace

Originally posted by Janus Marius
No, actually they're not. The top blade (Spanish rapier) is not adapted for the fencing styles you may be familiar with today (And that's because it predates them by hundreds of years.) The weapon was initially made by peasants, and was sharpened on the sides, making it useable for sideways cuts as well as thrusting. The main purpose of the blade was to make swordplay depend less on extensive physical strength and more on speed of hand and speed of mind. Also, the range gives the amateur a comfortable barrier between himself and the opponent. Later on, this evolved into the fencing form we see today. But what Dooku uses is based more on the original classic form, which DOES include cuts and deflection.


Actually the rapier would give Dooku a range advantage if he had developed the footwork needed to use the rapier. You have to realize that this "range" is coming from stabbing movements (moving the food of your weapon hand side as far as it goes towards the opponent and step him with the weapon while extending the arm with the weapon and leaning towards the opponent). And this particular form of movement is not present in Dooku's fighting style.

Besides of that the blade of a rapier is not the toughest thing to have. And because of that fencers often use parry-daggers (offhand) to parry opponents and even break the opponents blade with that weapon.



The problem is that (estimating Dooku and Mace get the best weapons available) the Katana is better. First: Medieval rapiers were crafted out of iron, not steel (see above). Then even if you give Dooku a steel weapon: The best Katanas available have a blade design called "soshu kitae" invented by mastersmith Masamune. The blade is contains 7 different layers of steel. You have a soft core, medium hard steel between the core and the blades (2 layers) and hard steel on the blade(s) (2 layers) and the apex and at the bottom of the blade (to ensure stability).

In contrary a rapier is formed of one sort of metal (most likely hard or medium steel) thus making it possible for the katana user to destroy the rapier with a few strikes (or even with one if enough strength used) because of either braking it (less flexibility) or cutting right through it (steel with less hardness grade).

Or to make it clearer: If you own a Katana crafted out of 440 steel better throw it away because this is steel designed for knives with a HRC of 56 max - a real Katana has a blade hardness of 62+ HRC giving your regular steel weapon a huge problem. A "real" Katana shouldn't be confused with the machinal crafted stuff used in WW2.



I wonder what weapons you are talking about and what style the fighters should use.

A rapier has a weight between 1.2 and 1.6 KG, a Katana one between 0.8 and 1.4 KG. The blade length of a Rapier is usually between 60 and 90 cm, the Katana between 2 and 3 shaku (60,6 - 90,9 cm) and since Dooku uses real fencing movements (stabbing motions) their range would be nearly equal.

And whatever movies you have seen: Katana swordfighting is based on arm and wrist movements. A Katana can be used as slashing and thrusting weapons, with both hands as well as one handed. The swordmaster Miyamoto Musashi even went so far to create his fighting style called Niten Ichiryū ("Two heavens - one style" using two weapons (Katana mainhand, Wakizashi offhand) as descriped in his book Gorin no Shō ("Book of the five rings". The only thing that is common in most styles of Katana swordfighting is the idea that you never swing the axis of the blade vertical but instead use a mixture of pulling and cutting movement.



That "limited style" isn't more limited than the "rapier style". In fact the rapier user is more limited since powerful two handed strikes aren't possible using a rapier while a katana can be used in nearly every imaginable way. The "grap with two hands and slash only" technique is more or less a myth coming from the observation of the famous "cut through the damn helmet" ceremony often shown by Shinkendo masters even today. If you show me the Kenjitsu master stupid enough to try something like that on a opponent that wears no armor I'll call the Katana a "limited weapon".

As far as I can judge it Mace's lightsaber style resembles the weapon giving to him better than it's the case for Dooku. Given the weapon advantage and estimating that both are equal with a lightsaber I have to say that Mace is most likely going to win this.

I'll get to this later, when I have access to scans and decent internet.

Bump

Thump

This was a good topic...

Bump

Well... do you have access to scans and decent internet yet?

Originally posted by PurpleSaber
Well... do you have access to scans and decent internet yet?
I think he forgot...

Oh.

Damn Veneficious, you change ur sigs alot.

Oops. I forgot about this. It got buried. Well, i can't do it right this minute, since I have work in twenty minutes. Later tonight then.