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Setting is The Invisible Hand.

Just replace Ani and Obi with their OT counterparts.

Dooku pwns because he is almighty!!

Dooku fries Vader with lightning, and wtfpwns Ben because he is way faster and more agile than Old Ben ever was. Dooku's style is very quick and precise, he'd waste Ben. Dooku wins.

I go with the duo, their knowledge of the force has grown so much. Together I think they would be too much for ol' Dookie.

The term 'Dookie' offends me. Dooku wtf pwned Obi-Wan in his prime and in the OT Kenobi is old and crappy. Dooku would wtf wtf pwn OT Ben and would beat Vader with sith lightning and his precise attacks

I'd say their cohesion would be off. I'm a Vader > Anakin believer, too.

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
Dooku fries Vader with lightning, and wtfpwns Ben because he is way faster and more agile than Old Ben ever was. Dooku's style is very quick and precise, he'd waste Ben. Dooku wins.

Yep. Vader gets zapped or choked, same with Obi-Wan. Or even if Obi-Wan wises up and survives a force attack, Dooku's Makashi mastery pwns him.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
The term 'Dookie' offends me. Dooku wtf pwned Obi-Wan in his prime and in the OT Kenobi is old and crappy. Dooku would wtf wtf pwn OT Ben and would beat Vader with sith lightning and his precise attacks

It's "Dooku," with a "u." Haha, I'm just messing witcha. I think together the two will be too much. Force knowledge is very important, and Obi Wan knows more of the light than Dooku and Vader knows more of the dark than him.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
It's "Dooku," with a "u." Haha, I'm just messing witcha. I think together the two will be too much. Force knowledge is very important, and Obi Wan knows more of the light than Dooku and Vader knows more of the dark than him.

True. But saber skills are just as important and Dooku would wtf pwn them both in that area

IMO, Dooku would waste them. Btw ox, I like your sig.

Originally posted by PurpleSaber
IMO, Dooku would waste them. Btw ox, I like your sig.
Thanks. The great Council#13 made it for me.

Dooku pwns them... He was above Anakin and Kenobi's level when they were at their best. He could wipe them out when they're lesser as well.

Dooku would curbstomp Vader with Lightning and Kenobi?


L o L

I think he would be best suited to take them out with his saber. Both of his opponents seem a bit clunkier with their sabers, but probably more powerful in the force. Remember that Dooku keeps up with the two of 'em in their saber prime while they had EXCELLENT cohesion.

He would destroy them in a saber fight. With Force, it'd be close, but Dooku still crushes them.

Dooku would destroy them, the lightning would end Vader quick, and while Kenobi's Force knowledge might be great, he just cant beat Dooku in saber combat, and Dooku has been an active user of the force where Ben has not. Dooku would win.

Dooku pounds them both into the ground.

I don't think he could end Vader that easily with lightning. Kenobi deflected lightning with ease in AOTC, and I bet Vader could do the same with his saber. But they are still WTF Pwned....

Originally posted by Tarvos
He would destroy them in a saber fight. With Force, it'd be close, but Dooku still crushes them.

That doesn't make sense, it was bothering me, sorry.

Anyway, what has Dooku shown us to put him above these two?

Erm, the fact that he's able to WTFpwn a more active and fit Kenobi? The fact that his force mastery far exceeds that of Vader or Kenobi? Or the fact that his lightsabre skills are far better than both? Considering that Kenobi was out of practice for twenty years, and Vader could only stalemate him kinda speak a lot for their sabre skills...

Out of practise? Do we know that? We know he's still a Soresu master. We know he can incorporate Ataru in his technique and we know he fought Sand People in some way, shape, or form.

Not to mention he moved pretty fast pwning those two guys in the cantina.

Old Obi was also chasing off Krayt dragons and going across the galaxy to help some other Jedi during his exile...Dooku is one dead Sith in this fight

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yep. Vader gets zapped or choked, same with Obi-Wan. Or even if Obi-Wan wises up and survives a force attack, Dooku's Makashi mastery pwns him.


Give me a damn break Janus, Im not even that close-minded when Im joking...

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I'm a damn fool.

Yes, I agree.

Vader blocks any lightning, or force attack while Obi Wan enters saber combat and uses his soresu mastery to block everything Dooku throws at him. During this, Vader attacks with the force. Vader could enter saber combat while Obi Wan uses force attack also. Either way, Dooku gets beat down.

Saber skills mean nothing.

"Judge me by my size do you? And where you should not. For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is"...

And the Force skills alone enable the jedi to fight the way they do. Without the Force, duels would last 3 seconds as one misses and antoher hits.

"Ability to destroy a planet is insignificent next to the power of the Force"

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader blocks any lightning, or force attack while Obi Wan enters saber combat and uses his soresu mastery to block everything Dooku throws at him. During this, Vader attacks with the force. Vader could enter saber combat while Obi Wan uses force attack also. Either way, Dooku gets beat down.

1. Prove to me that Vader can block Dooku's lightning.

2. Prove to me that Vader can counter Dooku's force telekinesis. (And keep in mind that Dooku pissed all over ROTS Obi-Wan in the force, who later went on to stalemate Anakin Skywalker. So, since Vader is weaker in the Force, there really is no way why he would become stronger than Dooku or able to resist him)

3. Obi-Wan couldn't overcome Vader using Soresu, and it certainly didn't work better for him when he was younger.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9987/anakinobiavatar6kw8po.gif

^ Here's Obi-wan and Anakin after years of teamwork. Also, keep in mind that Anakin has his full force potential (Meaning he's not maimed), and neither of them is out of saber practice (as opposed to twenty years later). I don't see them overcoming him, do you?

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3564/000obithrow9wk1wy3dz.gif

Oops! There goes the dream team in their prime.

4. Show me how Vader and/or Obi-Wan can "attack with the force" in a way that would defeat Count Dooku, considering that he WTFpunk'd them both rather easily in their prime, that jedi masters don't really have offensive force powers, and that Vader is actually weaker than he used to be.

Really now... So Vader who is weaker than his former self in force power and slower along with his out of shape jedi master who has no offensive force powers and apparently got even worse because he couldn't beat Vader in ANH.... are going to defeat Count Dooku who is at the top of his game? Considering that they haven't fought together in two decades, that they've both gotten older, slower, and both have potentially lost ability due to non use?

Let fanboys be fanboys, I suppose.

It doesn't matter. Vader and Kenobi had been decreased in saber power. Dooku has also shown fairly great Force ability. Ben Kenobi had most likely not used his saber for a while. He'd have no reason to train with it, since it wouldn't help. He may have gotten stronger in the Force, yes, but if it hasn't been practiced, the increase in Force wouldn't do much. Dooku obliterates them.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader blocks any lightning, or force attack while Obi Wan enters saber combat and uses his soresu mastery to block everything Dooku throws at him. During this, Vader attacks with the force. Vader could enter saber combat while Obi Wan uses force attack also. Either way, Dooku gets beat down.

You are grossly underestimating the Counts ability here. How on earth would Obi-Wan block every attack that Dooku threw at him? Remember Dooku wtf pwned him twice when he was younger, at the top of his game, and had a strong padawan to back him up. Obi-Wan will be out of this duel quicker than he got pwned in ROTS. As for Vader. He MIGHT be able to block Dookus force attacks but when it comes to dueling he is out of his class. Dookus attacks are quick and precise where as Vaders are fairly slow and predictable. The duo are going to get wtf pwned again by the great Count Dooku!!

Dooku probably wins. He'll use the Force to take Obi-Wan out, just like in ROTS. Then it's Vader vs. Dooku, and I doubt Vader's strong enough to take out Dooku like Anakin did.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I go with the duo, their knowledge of the force has grown so much. Together I think they would be too much for ol' Dookie.
Fanboy alert! Seriosuly, Dooku's have shown saber skills that are close to Yoda's. Same with his Force skills. To say Vader has a greater DS mastery or Obi has a greater Force mastery is ridiculous. The one thing Vader has over Dooku is he has killed a lot of Jedi. So he has alot of experience. I don't think Kenobi has anything over Dooku, unless you count the fact that he know how to become a ghost.


Well, it's not really that hard. Just hold up the saber, wha-la.

But agree with the rest of your post, for a change.

In The Elder Scrolls game series there is this one saying:


"The best techniques are passed on by survivors"

Originally posted by Sesse
In The Elder Scrolls game series there is this one saying:


"The best techniques are passed on by survivors"

w00t! Elder Scrolls!

Really? Vader has 23 years of Sith training... which is much more than Dooku's 13. Dooku does have a greater knowledge of the force, but as far as the Dark Side is concerned, I'm sure Vader knows more.

And as far as the light side is concerned, Kenobi is more knowledgeable. Not necessarily in combat, but overall, I'd have to say without a doubt.

Dooku has proved himself to be more powerful in the Force than Ben. If you can prove that Ben had greatly improved in the Force during his exiled time, I might give them a chance with the Force. Until then, Dooku rips apart Kenobi and then proceeds to rip apart Vader. He could take them when they were at their best in strength and teamwork, so he could take them now.

Uh, remind me where it's stated Anakin >>> Vader??

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Uh, remind me where it's stated Anakin >>> Vader??

Exactly, because logic says otherwise.

Logic? Not sure about that, but I hope Lucas didn't intend the main badass villain in his best works to be far weaker than the whiny baby we see in the Prequel "movies".

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Logic? Not sure about that, but I hope Lucas didn't intend the main badass villain in his best works to be far weaker than the whiny baby we see in the Prequel "movies".

I hate to disappoint you, but Anakin lost a shitload of his power at Mustafar when Obi-wan ripped him apart.

Suit Vader is nothing compaired to Flesh and blood Vader.

I thought this was common knowledge.

I remember him losing potential, but never explicitly power.

And even if he did lose power at Mustafar, whether he regained that power or not during the 20 years of darkness is in question.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
I remember him losing potential, but never explicitly power.

Suit Vader has lot more experience, but whiny Anakin has way more power. That's pretty much what Lucas was staying.

"Vader's a shell of his former self." - GL
"After he became injured Vader was never again as strong as the Emperor." - GL

Some quote about the PT duelists being superior to the OT duelists.

How is it logic that OT Vader is stronger. ROTS Vader is over twice as fast, nearly as strong physically, wouldn't let ESB Luke cut his arm, even my accident, and would NEVER lose to ROTJ Luke, wouldn't get killed from 7 seconds of lightning, god can this list never end? And Janus, Faunus and Illustrious are even better at saying why than I am.

"Vader's a shell of his former self." - GL

But of course. He was in a metal shell!

"After he became injured Vader was never again as strong as the Emperor." - GL

He was before? News to me.

Vader became much experienced and physically stronger once he became suited but he also became significantly slower. Dookus attacks are extremely quick and precise and would be able to strike Vader before Vader can get his guard up. I dont think that Ben stands a chance at all. He got wtf pwned twice already by Dooku, while he was young and fit. He is now a (physically) weak old man who has also slowed significantly. Overall Dooku would wtf pwn them both.

When Yoda said
"Strong is Vader! mind what you have learned, save you it can!"

he didnt mean:

"Away is Vader from his former strength! Do as I said, rape him you will!"

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Really? Vader has 23 years of Sith training... which is much more than Dooku's 13. Dooku does have a greater knowledge of the force, but as far as the Dark Side is concerned, I'm sure Vader knows more.

WTF is this shit?

Dooku is something like 82-83 as of ROTS. That's 13 years of Sith training, the rest before that jedi training (Since childhood), including mastery of Makashi. And really, after 23 years, Vader wasn't powerful enough to stand up to a barely trained boy? Granted, I think that fight is where Vader deliberately took a dive, but damn... even in ESB if he was -that- powerful all he had to do is force choke Luke. But he couldn't.

"If he could be turned to the darkside, he would be an valuable ally"
"Yes, yes. Can it be done?"
"He will join us or die, master"

Vader was there to convert, not to terminate.

Yeah, that always struck me as odd, too. Maybe GL meant as strong at dueling or something cause he's definately not as strong overall.

Originally posted by Sesse
"If he could be turned to the darkside, he would be an valuable ally"
"Yes, yes. Can it be done?"
"He will join us or die, master"

Vader was there to convert, not to terminate.

His goal was to turn him, but he wanted to give him to the Emperor, thus why he tried to seal him in Carbonite. So he could choke Luke until Luke lost consciousness (due to lack of air) and then he could give him to the Emperor and the Emperor would try to seduce Luke, and would probably succeed, as this is ESB Luke and not ROTJ Luke, who nearly turned.

WTF is this shit?

Dooku is something like 82-83 as of ROTS. That's 13 years of Sith training, the rest before that jedi training (Since childhood), including mastery of Makashi. And really, after 23 years, Vader wasn't powerful enough to stand up to a barely trained boy? Granted, I think that fight is where Vader deliberately took a dive, but damn... even in ESB if he was -that- powerful all he had to do is force choke Luke. But he couldn't.

Notice how I say "(Dooku) has a greater knowledge of the force".

But Vader spent longer studying the Dark Side. Longer than any movie sith actually besides Palpy himself.

Yeah, but what are the results of that study? I don't see anything resulting from it.

I wouldn't say he exerted himself against Luke. He was testing the boy, then he took a big hard dive.

Yes, I agree. However, while we can throw around numbers like 23>13... we can't substantiate just how much knowledge Vader acquired and mastered versus Dooku's. It's not like Dooku could use lightning and Vader could use Force storm or something. It's not that easy to determine.

Likewise, Dooku's philosophy on the force even as a jedi was on drawing on both sides of it equally. (Something that didn't endear him to the council for sure). It's not like he's totally unaware of the dark side at all. If anything, he had a lot of knowledge going in. He's probably forgotten more knowledge of the force before becoming a sith than Anakin had as a jedi.

Yep. He's been in practice for 70 more years.

I have a question why is everyone saying Vader is so slow when The Crimson Empire completely disproves that. And didn't everyone around here used to say old Ben was stronger than his ROTS version? Oh yes and in AOTC when Dooku throws that hollow pipe or whatever it was he shows quite a bit of exertion while Vader in ESB is chucking much heavier machinery around like toys!

Originally posted by The Creator
I have a question why is everyone saying Vader is so slow when The Crimson Empire completely disproves that.

It does, eh? So Crimson Empire's take on how fast Vader is suddenly overrules how fast he is in the movies? Let me rephrase that- is Vader going to be fast enough to defeat Dooku in saber combat considering he doesn't have full range of motion with his limbs, his fighting style has changed because his limbs are artificial and much longer (Try fighting in platform shoes for instance... you'd have to learn everything all over again), he's lost a good deal of his force potential, and he hasn't worked with Obi-Wan in over twenty years?



There was speculation, but it's really not likely to be the case overall; yes, Kenobi likely has a better understanding of the Force, but there's nothing to imply he can overpower Dooku who is still far older and wiser. I mean, what is he gonna do? Attempt a mind trick and then become a ghost?



You need to stop drinking. Dooku ripped chunks out of a ceiling with relative ease. Hell, while he was saber locked with Yoda he casually reached out and dropped a bus-sized crane on Obi-Wan and Anakin. Vader in ESB is throwing little monitors and pieces of equipment. Hell, Revan can do that after three weeks training in KotOR.

Sorry guys, but i think vader and ben takes it I'm a big fan of vader but doesnt always wins battles. Vader yes is slow but can still be hard to kill and if it were to be a rematch against luke Vader would own him. Well isnt vader the chosen one? He is said that he can wipe out ALL the sith during his time, wouldn't that include dooku? Besides Vader can choke his enemies while using his saber to battle also can't he do that on dooku? Don't flmae me but it's just what I believe Ben on the other hand....

Sidious in rots did say soon he will a far more younger and powerful apprentice... than dooku

And very likely he was indicating potential power, since Anakin has more midi-chlorians than anyone in the Jedi Order as of TPM.

But otherwise, I'll just ignore your post.

Regardless: The EU's shown Vader is an exceptionally inventive, agile and fast enemy, even after the prequels, and Obi-wan wasn't spending the time just chilling. The majority of his days were spent training, looking after Luke from afar or tapping into the force qith Qui-Gon's help. We've seen Vader kill dark force users and he lost potential, but e rose in power

And again, even at their height of collusion and peak physical training, the two of them could not mount a serious assault against him. And since Vader's gotten slower, less dextrous, and lost force potential and power, and Obi-Wan hasn't fought anyone for twenty years and couldn't beat Vader when they met on the Death Star, there's absolutely no reason to believe that the two of them would overcome Dooku. If anything, they'd have less of a chance by the time of the OT than by ROTS.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
And very likely he was indicating potential power, since Anakin has more midi-chlorians than anyone in the Jedi Order as of TPM.

But otherwise, I'll just ignore your post.

That's mature. So, Vader and Ben win? Because, Janus, I'm just going to ignore your rebuttals.

Tell that to the Inquisitorius Obi-wan killed. Yaddle hadn't fought anyone in a century, but she managed to kill Warlord Kulat, after increasing her force ability in captivity for over a century and she didn't have Qui-Gon's spirit guiding her. As for Vader: Still very fast and powerful, gained in actual power from Anakin Skywalker...

We see him move pretty damn fast pwning Luke in ESB. After he gets pissed off, of course.

Yeah. Vader was fast both in the movies and EU, why do people think he has the agility of a snowman?

Well... his ANH duel >_<

Which, if memory serves, has glowy points representing lightsabers at one point. All that is, is another technical screw up from Lucas before he got all his ideas

Yeah, but Vader had probably been thinking of things to say in case he ran into Obi Wan for the past nineteen years, he had a lot to say.

Well, Lucas did design the scene when sabre matches weren't colorful epileptic seizures.

OT duels >> PT duels.

Yeah, PT duels didn't even make sense. The swordplay, I mean, well, for the most part.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
That's mature. So, Vader and Ben win? Because, Janus, I'm just going to ignore your rebuttals.

Wow, I leave for five seconds and the Vader Fans Incorporated all cluster here and start power chatting.

And yes, I am ignoring Mader's post. He posts like once a month, and never with more than five active brain cells at a time. If you couldn't get that from reading all of his posts (including the necromanc'd threads he brought back from the grave) then I'm sorry you can't see where I'm coming from.

And again, I ask all of you:

CAN YOU MAKE A CONVINCING ARGUMENT FOR WHY VADER AND OBI-WAN WILL MESH TOGETHER PERFECTLY AND BE ABLE TO DEFEAT COUNT DOOKU?

Instead of nitpicking, or saying "Zomg Yaddle beat someone!" (Yes, cuz she was a jedi master in the jedi temple... a bit different from being a hermit on a desert planet for twenty years), try and make a good argument. I made an excellent one, complete with animations and everything. You guys are just riding Vader's nuts and being ridiculous.

Actually, Janus? Yaddle was locked up underground for a century and was a padawan when she was imprisoned.
We know both Obi-wan and Vader had excellent training since and improved, Obi-wan's power in the force deepened and Vader killed numerous, numerous Jedi. And other enemies.

In Crimson Empire... didn't he toyed with the best DJ duelist in Emperor Palpatine's service?

Danid wasn't a dark jedi

What?!

Bah, its hardly impressive now

he was still a royal guardsman potential, meaning he was one of the best human warriors in the galaxy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, Janus? Yaddle was locked up underground for a century and was a padawan when she was imprisoned.

Terrific. That's wonderful for her. But last I checked, she isn't Obi-Wan or Vader. She isn't even of the same race. So the observation is pretty damn assinine. If sitting around means you still get powerful for everyone, then I'm getting stronger as I type this paragraph. When I get off work tonight, I'm going to go take on a biker gang. I should be pretty damn uber from not working out. Seriously. Tip top shape.



We do? Can you prove this? Yoda handed Obi-Wan a datapad to study while he was out in the middle of nowhere. Now, considering that he could only train with uh.... himself, how does this mean he went from the strutting jedi master before who got absolutely floored by Dooku with minimal effort, to being someone who can hang? You haven't established that he's got any better, and begging the question won't help you either.



Really? Prove this. Establish it. Don't just claim it and then expect me to believe it. Prove to me that ANH Obi-Wan is a match for Dooku, don't just claim it.



Prove that he's a duellist on par with Count Dooku at this point. Prove to me that those he defeated were on par with a Makashi master and jedi master gone sith. Show me some evidence. I don't want to see:

Obi-Wan is better. Vader is better. Yaddle can pwn some noob. They both got better. Their knowledge increased. They will win.

That's called "not making an argument".

Once again: Obi-wan and Vader weren't being idle whatsoever. Obi-wan was training practically every day with Qui-Gon. He was around the galaxy at several points, from Last of the Jedi. And Anakin killed The Dark Woman, numerous jedi at the same time, surpassed the state of Anakin Skywalker where he was able to go toe to toe with Dooku, and at that point, he was described as the finest Djem So specialist Dooku had ever seen.

You know, there's a reason why I hate debating with you- and it's because you just ramble off shit and you don't bother to cite anything.

1. I want to know what source you used to find out that Obi-Wan trained.

2. I want to know the quality of that training. I want to know how much Obi-Wan grew in powere. I want to see something that will show he won't get tooled like he did before.

3. I'd like to see the Dark Woman's power quantified. Same with the other jedi he defeated. Again, are these people as dangerous and deadly as Dooku? Dooku who mastered the saber to saber form? Dooku who went toe to toe with Yoda? Dooku who can casually choke jedi master Obi-Wan and throw him like a ragdoll while casually backkicking Anakin?

4. Show me exactly where OT Vader "surpassed the state of Anakin Skywalker as of ROTS".

When you learn to add PROOF to your arguments and learn how to CITE things, we might get somewhere.

Sources of Obi's training: ROTS, Last of the Jedi

Clone Wars, Dark Woman, AKA An'Ya Kuro is called one of the most formidable Jedi in the order. Ki-Adi Mundi says something to the sort as well in the hunt for Aurra Sing. As deadly and dangerous as Dooku? Of course not. And Dooku ran away from Yoda, when he realized there was no way he wasn't winning that fight. AOTC novelization as source, along with comics.

As for Vader and Anakin: ROTS novelization, Vader would become stronger than his uncrippled state, but would never reach the level of potential

Okay, Vader has shown us more:
Agility/Speed
Experience in lightsaber to lightsaber dueling
Strength
Endurance
Force Mastery
*Choked an Officer who was godknows how far away
*Tossed around debris like it was nothing in ESB
Choked three people at a time, one of which went flying ( http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=8&f=19&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_19 )
*

EDIT: My computer is going loopy, I'll post/repost when I figure this out.

Alright. Finally. Now...

Establish Obi-Wan and Vader's power in relation to Dooku at this point.

You still haven't shown me how worthwhile Obi-Wan's training is. Obviously, he's not better than Vader since he couldn't defeat him as of ANH. Again, Vader might be more powerful in the force than he used to be, but he fights differently, and he's hardly as dextrous and slick in combat.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Alright. Finally. Now...

Establish Obi-Wan and Vader's power in relation to Dooku at this point.

You still haven't shown me how worthwhile Obi-Wan's training is. Obviously, he's not better than Vader since he couldn't defeat him as of ANH. Again, Vader might be more powerful in the force than he used to be, but he fights differently, and he's hardly as dextrous and slick in combat.

Yeah, now he has tremendous strength and toughness, and plays off that in a lightsaber fight. Also, see Crimson Empire if you think Vader is slow, not agile, or a bad duelist.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yeah, now he has tremendous strength and toughness, and plays off that in a lightsaber fight. Also, see Crimson Empire if you think Vader is slow, not agile, or a bad duelist.

Yeah, because if Vader was better than he was in ROTS, he would have defeated Palpatine and taken over.

Oops! That didn't happen!

Seriously. If Vader > Dooku, then Vader would be good enough to stand up to Yoda or defeat Sidious.

... Except that's not the case. Even GL has said that OT fighters are nothing compared to PT ones. This includes mighty Lord Vader and Hermit Obi-Wan.

I'm seriously considering ROTS Anakin >> Palpatine, now. I mean, Lucas' quote points in that direction...

How could Anakin >> Sidious when Anakin was defeated by Obi-Wan? Do you see Anakin defeating Yoda in combat? Mace Windu?

That's the thing. I don't.

Hmm, do you think that Obi Wan knowing Anakins style, reactions, etc could really count for that much? If Anakin was better than Sidious, he was better than Yoda. Yoda said that Obi Wan was not powerful to take on the Emperor. That means Anakin> Obi wan (a substantial amount, I would imagine). These contradicting quotes are too much. I give up.

Yeah... if Anakin were as powerful as Lucas boasted, wouldn't he have absolutely destroyed Obi on Mustafar?

Well, he very nearly did quite a few times. But unfortunately the key source of a lot of Anakin's strength (When he -really- taps into his force potential) is when he's pissed and not exactly thinking right. Anakin probably could dust Sidious about five to ten years from ROTS, but he hadn't mastered the mind aspect of the game.

I wonder why didn't the Jedi remnants (Obi1 and Yoda) use "concentration of the local force" to their advantage?

Two men can defeat 200 men if they ambush them one at a time together. its always 2 to 1 situation."


Together they could have walked over Anakin and after that, the Emperor.

Germany lost in the eastern front mostly because they split their offensive in two branches. in ww2.

Both Obi-Wan and Vader did have training after the PT. But I was under the impression Obi-Wan was learning how to go ghost form which wouldnt help his duel with Dooku at all. I could be wrong however. But after he became a hermit he wouldnt have had anyone to duel for years - up until his confrontation with Vader. His force powers would have increased but his saber skills would have dramatically decreased. This isnt a good thing if you are fighting someone who is a master of Makashi, the lightsaber to lightsaber style. He will get pwned.

As for Vader. His strength, experience and force knowledge would have increased but his speed significantly decreased. And I was under the impression he only bet Count Dooku in ROTS because Dooku overpowered him with all his fast attacks.

Hmm...interresting...

I think some people should not judge the OT characters by their appearance in the OT movies only.

Vader
We know that Anakin / Vader lost a great amount of his natural potential in ROTS. But he gained force knowledge (Dark Side) and control. And the last thing is important. In ROTS when he still had his entire potential he wasn't able to overpower Obi-Wan (seen when they try to force push each other in their duel on Mustafar) - the very same Obi-Wan that was nearly singled out for the agricultural corps because of his lack of force potential before becoming a Padawan. So here we have the upper limit in terms of potential (Anakin) stalemating the bottom limit (Obi-Wan) in a force contest because Obi-Wan had 20 year of training advantage (meaning control).

So even if he lost great parts of his potential he might have been able to compensate that by gaining force control. The Emperor and Vader trained a nice amount of Dark Siders in the 2 decades of their reign and still Vader remained the unquestioned number 2 of the Empire - which actually shows us that he is still more powerful than the other people (including trained PT Jedi like Jerec).

We also know that Vader lost some amounts of speed / dexterity but even here you have compensation. First he gained pretty much strength due to his cybernatic body parts. Then he had his armor which partially protected him against lightsaber strikes (otherwise Luke would have cut his arm off in ESB when hitting him).

And he did refine his lightsaber style. Of course he still had his form V mastery at hand. In RoDV you have Jedi Master Roan Shryne noticing that Vader started to introduce form III and IV movements into his style and his fight against Luke in ESB (partially one-handed fighting) can lead to the suggestion that he experimented with form II too. At the very least Vader can't be easily tooled in lightsaber fights. In RoDV and Purge you have him fighting multiple Jedi at once. In one situation he even gets his weapon arm cut off, picks his own seperated limb up and kills the Jedi who did cut if off with the weapon that remained in his hand. In Purge after Jedi Master Shadday Potkin disabled his lightsaber using a cortosis blade he simply picks her up and breaks her neck.
And apparently he handled his lightsaber precisely enought to give Kir Karnos just a scar on his face while cutting through his face mask (and he wanted exactly that).

If Vader really was as slow and weak in the force as some people seem to have in their mind some Jedi he hunted should have tooled him e.g. the Dark Women who was over a century old (and still in great physical condition) when Vader found her. Instead he threw a tree at her...

Obi-Wan
Obi-Wan did more then just sit on his ass for 20 years on Tatooine. In "The Last of the Jedi" he escapes Inquisitor Malorum as well as Boba Fett and is forced to eliminate Inquisitor Sancor. Obviously that gave him enough experience to learn "the way of the Whills" from Qui-Gon's spirit. Remember that the Whills (in SW mythology) are the "history keepers" of the SW galaxy, most likely "higher beings" who are suspected to be immortal. And Qui-Gon learned the secret how to remain as a spirit within the force from one of them (and some other stuff).

And if you read the "Jedi Prince" novels apparently Obi-Wan managed to enter the spice mines on Kessel in 7 BBY, kidnap Ken (Palpatine's grand child) and move him to the Lost City of the Jedi on Yavin 4. If Kenobi gained knowledge about the Lost City which was abandoned even before Sadow's time and just a legend even among the Jedi Order and managed to move into one of the Empire's protected industrial facilities and "steal" a child basically unnoticed I'm quite sure he gained some huge knowledge during his Exile.
Also remember that he spent his time in one of the most dangerous places in the entire Galaxy filled with Tusken, Jawas, Krayd Dragons and other inconvenient surprises.

So while Dooku is the same he was in ROTS, Anakin / Vader and Obi-Wan have gained more force control, more force knowledge and had enough opportunities to develope their lightsaber abilities. I really don't think that Dooku can tool them as easily as he did in AotC or ROTS. Either Dooku loses this or he will have a damn hard fight against those two.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Wow, I leave for five seconds and the Vader Fans Incorporated all cluster here and start power chatting.

And yes, I am ignoring Mader's post. He posts like once a month, and never with more than five active brain cells at a time. If you couldn't get that from reading all of his posts (including the necromanc'd threads he brought back from the grave) then I'm sorry you can't see where I'm coming from.

And again, I ask all of you:

CAN YOU MAKE A CONVINCING ARGUMENT FOR WHY VADER AND OBI-WAN WILL MESH TOGETHER PERFECTLY AND BE ABLE TO DEFEAT COUNT DOOKU?

Instead of nitpicking, or saying "Zomg Yaddle beat someone!" (Yes, cuz she was a jedi master in the jedi temple... a bit different from being a hermit on a desert planet for twenty years), try and make a good argument. I made an excellent one, complete with animations and everything. You guys are just riding Vader's nuts and being ridiculous.

of course I dont post as much I'm not like a godly ass fan as u are your probably one of those nerds who slept out a movie theatre for 2 weeks waiting for ROTS to come out I don't waste my time looking for information about star wars 24/7. I only come here once and a while to see whats going on

I bet your one of those fat nerds or skinny ones that have lots of pimples and ****ed up teeth kk thx goodbye.

And Obi-wan beat Anakin because obi-wan according to his training higher ground wins and obi was on higher ground.

POP POP POP
Someone got gunneD!
12X3 43*2

Originally posted by Borbarad
Hmm...interresting...

I think some people should not judge the OT characters by their appearance in the OT movies only.

Vader
We know that Anakin / Vader lost a great amount of his natural potential in ROTS. But he gained force knowledge (Dark Side) and control. And the last thing is important. In ROTS when he still had his entire potential he wasn't able to overpower Obi-Wan (seen when they try to force push each other in their duel on Mustafar) - the very same Obi-Wan that was nearly singled out for the agricultural corps because of his lack of force potential before becoming a Padawan. So here we have the upper limit in terms of potential (Anakin) stalemating the bottom limit (Obi-Wan) in a force contest because Obi-Wan had 20 year of training advantage (meaning control).

So even if he lost great parts of his potential he might have been able to compensate that by gaining force control. The Emperor and Vader trained a nice amount of Dark Siders in the 2 decades of their reign and still Vader remained the unquestioned number 2 of the Empire - which actually shows us that he is still more powerful than the other people (including trained PT Jedi like Jerec).

We also know that Vader lost some amounts of speed / dexterity but even here you have compensation. First he gained pretty much strength due to his cybernatic body parts. Then he had his armor which partially protected him against lightsaber strikes (otherwise Luke would have cut his arm off in ESB when hitting him).

And he did refine his lightsaber style. Of course he still had his form V mastery at hand. In RoDV you have Jedi Master Roan Shryne noticing that Vader started to introduce form III and IV movements into his style and his fight against Luke in ESB (partially one-handed fighting) can lead to the suggestion that he experimented with form II too. At the very least Vader can't be easily tooled in lightsaber fights. In RoDV and Purge you have him fighting multiple Jedi at once. In one situation he even gets his weapon arm cut off, picks his own seperated limb up and kills the Jedi who did cut if off with the weapon that remained in his hand. In Purge after Jedi Master Shadday Potkin disabled his lightsaber using a cortosis blade he simply picks her up and breaks her neck.
And apparently he handled his lightsaber precisely enought to give Kir Karnos just a scar on his face while cutting through his face mask (and he wanted exactly that).

If Vader really was as slow and weak in the force as some people seem to have in their mind some Jedi he hunted should have tooled him e.g. the Dark Women who was over a century old (and still in great physical condition) when Vader found her. Instead he threw a tree at her...

Obi-Wan
Obi-Wan did more then just sit on his ass for 20 years on Tatooine. In "The Last of the Jedi" he escapes Inquisitor Malorum as well as Boba Fett and is forced to eliminate Inquisitor Sancor. Obviously that gave him enough experience to learn "the way of the Whills" from Qui-Gon's spirit. Remember that the Whills (in SW mythology) are the "history keepers" of the SW galaxy, most likely "higher beings" who are suspected to be immortal. And Qui-Gon learned the secret how to remain as a spirit within the force from one of them (and some other stuff).

And if you read the "Jedi Prince" novels apparently Obi-Wan managed to enter the spice mines on Kessel in 7 BBY, kidnap Ken (Palpatine's grand child) and move him to the Lost City of the Jedi on Yavin 4. If Kenobi gained knowledge about the Lost City which was abandoned even before Sadow's time and just a legend even among the Jedi Order and managed to move into one of the Empire's protected industrial facilities and "steal" a child basically unnoticed I'm quite sure he gained some huge knowledge during his Exile.
Also remember that he spent his time in one of the most dangerous places in the entire Galaxy filled with Tusken, Jawas, Krayd Dragons and other inconvenient surprises.

So while Dooku is the same he was in ROTS, Anakin / Vader and Obi-Wan have gained more force control, more force knowledge and had enough opportunities to develope their lightsaber abilities. I really don't think that Dooku can tool them as easily as he did in AotC or ROTS. Either Dooku loses this or he will have a damn hard fight against those two.

Damn good post Borbarad

You bring up some pretty good points, as well as some awesome stuff I didn't know...

I must ponder this...

Originally posted by Lord Mader
of course I dont post as much I'm not like a godly ass fan as u are your probably one of those nerds who slept out a movie theatre for 2 weeks waiting for ROTS to come out I don't waste my time looking for information about star wars 24/7. I only come here once and a while to see whats going on

I bet your one of those fat nerds or skinny ones that have lots of pimples and ****ed up teeth kk thx goodbye.

And Obi-wan beat Anakin because obi-wan according to his training higher ground wins and obi was on higher ground.

Oh I love it how most people that gets owned on this forum starts to assume that the ones who are here are nerds who do nothing else than sit on these forums. There is no more proof that he is a nerd than there is that you are one, but at least he is not crying because his favourite character lost. You got owned, get over it.....

if it's just light saber fighting then Tyranus pwns them very quickly, but their knowledge of the force is far greater than Tyranus'..

Originally posted by Lord Mader
of course I dont post as much I'm not like a godly ass fan as u are your probably one of those nerds who slept out a movie theatre for 2 weeks waiting for ROTS to come out I don't waste my time looking for information about star wars 24/7.

Yes, folks- that's all one sentence. Let's all congratulate Mader for being hardcore and educated.



And the rest of us don't? Hm?



Oh noes! Teh inturnet n00b thinks I m teh fugly!!!11 ... Please. No one cares what you think other people are. Well, except for that one poor fool who got banned.



Oh yes, because being about a half a foot higher gave Obi-Wan a + 5 to hit and a + 16 to defense, right? Please.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Hmm...interresting...

I think some people should not judge the OT characters by their appearance in the OT movies only.

Vader
We know that Anakin / Vader lost a great amount of his natural potential in ROTS. But he gained force knowledge (Dark Side) and control. And the last thing is important. In ROTS when he still had his entire potential he wasn't able to overpower Obi-Wan (seen when they try to force push each other in their duel on Mustafar) - the very same Obi-Wan that was nearly singled out for the agricultural corps because of his lack of force potential before becoming a Padawan. So here we have the upper limit in terms of potential (Anakin) stalemating the bottom limit (Obi-Wan) in a force contest because Obi-Wan had 20 year of training advantage (meaning control).

So even if he lost great parts of his potential he might have been able to compensate that by gaining force control. The Emperor and Vader trained a nice amount of Dark Siders in the 2 decades of their reign and still Vader remained the unquestioned number 2 of the Empire - which actually shows us that he is still more powerful than the other people (including trained PT Jedi like Jerec).

We also know that Vader lost some amounts of speed / dexterity but even here you have compensation. First he gained pretty much strength due to his cybernatic body parts. Then he had his armor which partially protected him against lightsaber strikes (otherwise Luke would have cut his arm off in ESB when hitting him).

And he did refine his lightsaber style. Of course he still had his form V mastery at hand. In RoDV you have Jedi Master Roan Shryne noticing that Vader started to introduce form III and IV movements into his style and his fight against Luke in ESB (partially one-handed fighting) can lead to the suggestion that he experimented with form II too. At the very least Vader can't be easily tooled in lightsaber fights. In RoDV and Purge you have him fighting multiple Jedi at once. In one situation he even gets his weapon arm cut off, picks his own seperated limb up and kills the Jedi who did cut if off with the weapon that remained in his hand. In Purge after Jedi Master Shadday Potkin disabled his lightsaber using a cortosis blade he simply picks her up and breaks her neck.
And apparently he handled his lightsaber precisely enought to give Kir Karnos just a scar on his face while cutting through his face mask (and he wanted exactly that).

If Vader really was as slow and weak in the force as some people seem to have in their mind some Jedi he hunted should have tooled him e.g. the Dark Women who was over a century old (and still in great physical condition) when Vader found her. Instead he threw a tree at her...

Obi-Wan
Obi-Wan did more then just sit on his ass for 20 years on Tatooine. In "The Last of the Jedi" he escapes Inquisitor Malorum as well as Boba Fett and is forced to eliminate Inquisitor Sancor. Obviously that gave him enough experience to learn "the way of the Whills" from Qui-Gon's spirit. Remember that the Whills (in SW mythology) are the "history keepers" of the SW galaxy, most likely "higher beings" who are suspected to be immortal. And Qui-Gon learned the secret how to remain as a spirit within the force from one of them (and some other stuff).

And if you read the "Jedi Prince" novels apparently Obi-Wan managed to enter the spice mines on Kessel in 7 BBY, kidnap Ken (Palpatine's grand child) and move him to the Lost City of the Jedi on Yavin 4. If Kenobi gained knowledge about the Lost City which was abandoned even before Sadow's time and just a legend even among the Jedi Order and managed to move into one of the Empire's protected industrial facilities and "steal" a child basically unnoticed I'm quite sure he gained some huge knowledge during his Exile.
Also remember that he spent his time in one of the most dangerous places in the entire Galaxy filled with Tusken, Jawas, Krayd Dragons and other inconvenient surprises.

So while Dooku is the same he was in ROTS, Anakin / Vader and Obi-Wan have gained more force control, more force knowledge and had enough opportunities to develope their lightsaber abilities. I really don't think that Dooku can tool them as easily as he did in AotC or ROTS. Either Dooku loses this or he will have a damn hard fight against those two.


This... is how its done.

One thing he hasn't taken into effect is how Vader and Obi-Wan are going to mesh together. Even at the height of their teamwork, they were knocked all over the place.

But otherwise, a very well done post.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
One thing he hasn't taken into effect is how Vader and Obi-Wan are going to mesh together. Even at the height of their teamwork, they were knocked all over the place.

But otherwise, a very well done post.

Assuming Vader and Ben were indeed on the same side again, there is no reason to think they would of somehow forgot all the teamwork strategys and tactics they used to know.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Assuming Vader and Ben were indeed on the same side again, there is no reason to think they would of somehow forgot all the teamwork strategys and tactics they used to know.

I'd be like.

Obi: We must work together my old apprentice.
Vader: STFU old man I still hate you. First we kill Dooku than I waste you.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Assuming Vader and Ben were indeed on the same side again, there is no reason to think they would of somehow forgot all the teamwork strategys and tactics they used to know.

Yeah, because twenty years later (And when one has become a full fledged sith, using a different version of an earlier fighting style and the other has become an old man) they just mesh together like nothing ever happened.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
One thing he hasn't taken into effect is how Vader and Obi-Wan are going to mesh together. Even at the height of their teamwork, they were knocked all over the place.

But otherwise, a very well done post.

Just to add my thoughts on teamwork:

Yes. They were knocked all over the place but that happened because of Dooku's superior force mastery. I really don't see him force choking ANH Kenobi and trying to kick OT Vader away would probably give him a broken leg.

They would still know how to work together (unless they have forgotten more then a decade of fighting together) and Vader (in terms of calmness and fighting strategy) is closer to Obi-Wan then ROTS Anakin was. Also Vaders introduction of other forms (II, III and IV) into his swordplay might be able to give Dooku some additional surprise. Vader partitionally studied Dooku's own form and Kenobi's form which might possible lead to better handling of a form II user and better teamwork with a form III user.

(uncessesarily reapeating Janus) Didn't they practically grow up together in jedi training, except for a few years...more like several but still. they make up for each other's weakness (excuse my spelling and grammar im not in a caring mood in this lifetime)

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yeah, because twenty years later (And when one has become a full fledged sith, using a different version of an earlier fighting style and the other has become an old man) they just mesh together like nothing ever happened.


Pretty much.

20 years of being apart is almost irrelevent to them, they still know eachother like the back of their own hand... they still share the memories of all the training and experiences they had together. In addition we are talking about jedi here, its silly to think they get 'rusty' in the human sense we know...for example, Yoda was engaged in relatively little *real* combat throughout his 900 year life, he may have just sat in his council chambers for a good deal of it... yet when Dooku challenged him in AOTC he still fought masterfully.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Pretty much.

20 years of being apart is almost irrelevent to them, they still know eachother like the back of their own hand... they still share the memories of all the training and experiences they had together. In addition we are talking about jedi here, its silly to think they get 'rusty' in the human sense we know...for example, Yoda was engaged in relatively little *real* combat throughout his 900 year life, he may have just sat in his council chambers for a good deal of it... yet when Dooku challenged him in AOTC he still fought masterfully.

Yoda is an entirely different species of character. You have no idea how his character functions, how his mind works, or how his memories operate.

We know for a fact that Vader and Obi-Wan as of ANH are not as FAST as they were as of ROTS. Dooku in ROTS was faster than them. So you're banking on their profound new mastery of the force to give them the game.

Yeah, okay whatever. I'm sure that these two will just work in perfect cohesion after twenty years with no proof whatsoever.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And if you read the "Jedi Prince" novels apparently Obi-Wan managed to enter the spice mines on Kessel in 7 BBY, kidnap Ken (Palpatine's grand child) and move him to the Lost City of the Jedi on Yavin 4. If Kenobi gained knowledge about the Lost City which was abandoned even before Sadow's time and just a legend even among the Jedi Order and managed to move into one of the Empire's protected industrial facilities and "steal" a child basically unnoticed I'm quite sure he gained some huge knowledge during his Exile.

Dude. Those books are not canon.

Oh yeah, Palpatine had sex with an alien and created a three-eyed crazy sumbitch son called Triclops in those books, too. IT IS IN TEH KIDS BOOKS, IT MUST BE CANON!!!111ELEVEN

There is no "Lost City of the Jedi" on Yavin IV and Ken does not exist either.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yoda is an entirely different species of character. You have no idea how his character functions, how his mind works, or how his memories operate.

We know for a fact that Vader and Obi-Wan as of ANH are not as FAST as they were as of ROTS. Dooku in ROTS was faster than them. So you're banking on their profound new mastery of the force to give them the game.


1. Perhaps your right, however Yoda was just one example. Palpatine, as far as we know, had NO real practice whatsoever during his time as senator...did he appear slow when he killed those 3 jedi masters in roughly 2 seconds?

2. Its a fact? Really? Provide some written proof that they were slower. Going by the movies is false interpretation, it was entirely due to 70s moviemaking...Lucas never envisioned his characters to fight like they were wielding baseball bats, it was simply a necessity of the time period.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1. Perhaps your right, however Yoda was just one example. Palpatine, as far as we know, had NO real practice whatsoever during his time as senator...did he appear slow when he killed those 3 jedi masters in roughly 2 seconds?

2. Its a fact? Really? Provide some written proof that they were slower. Going by the movies is false interpretation, it was entirely due to 70s moviemaking...Lucas never envisioned his characters to fight like they were wielding baseball bats, it was simply a necessity of the time period.

Yes, it is fact that Vader in the suit was slower, this was mentioned as much by very credible sources (possibly Lucas himself, though I'd have to hunt for it).

The ANH novelization (probably the most accurate novelization) states the Obi-Wan's age was showing, he would not be able to keep up with his former self.

GV, someone DID offer up that quote just this past week.

Originally posted by IKC
Dude. Those books are not canon.

Dude. Those books are C-canon unless LFL says something different and apparently you aren't LFL.



You'd better read them. Triclops is the supposed son of Palpatine meaning there is no proof for that claim. And a lack of popularity combined with bad writing doesn't make them less canon.



At least Ken and Kadann appear in the Essential Guide to Characters either, in Kadann's case the same is true for the DS sourcebook and the Dark Forces saga. And something makes me think your personal opinion isn't able to overwrite source material authorized by LFL. I might be wrong there...but I don't think so.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
GV, someone DID offer up that quote just this past week.

Well...where is it?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
GV, someone DID offer up that quote just this past week.

And actually the quote says that the "lightsaber fights" of the PT era are faster than those in the OT and not the "fighters" as it was "quoted". Lucas was talking about the lack of speed due to the lack of technology in the OT - that totaly indicates inferior speed of the characters in universe.

Really Janus. It's outright senseless to assume that Dooku as he appears in AotC who didn't have a reason to use his lightsaber for 12 years and is 80 years old could keep or even increase his duelling skill while Obi-Wan in the age of 57 suddenly forgot how to handle a lightsaber and had a huge decrease in terms of speed while having plenty of possible oportunities to use his lightsaber or the force (due to the enviroment he lived in and his little Mission in the Last Jedi series).

At least Obi-Wans "Cut the arm with the blaster off" speed didn't seem to have decreased from AotC to ANH. But apparently he changed his fighting agenda due to the circumstances from "I'm a Jedi, so I just removed your hand holding the weapon" to "Now I'm a Jedi trying to not look like a Jedi, so I took the entire arm". Maybe BEN is an abbreviation for Bloodthirsty Enraged and Nasty.

By this logic, the "Choose Your Own Adventure" Star Wars books that followed the trilogy are canon too. Good job, Nai.



No, I think you should read them. From the glossary at the back of the final book (Prophets of the Dark Side):

Kendalina
A Jedi Princess who was forced to serve as a nurse in an Imperial insane asylum deep in the spice mines of Kessel.

Triclops
The true mutant, three-eyed son of the late Emperor Palpatine. Triclops has spent most of his life in Imperial insane asylums, but is now under observation by the Alliance at DRAPAC. He has two eyes on the front of his head and one on the back. He has scars on his temples from shock treatments, and his hair is white and jagged, sticking out in all directions.

Those are just two of many instances of non-canon, non-replicated bullshit. Jedi royalty now, huh? Palpatine having sex at all, much less with an alien to produce a mutant?

Yeah Nai. If those books are canon, then green bunnies leap from my ass.



Actually, Ken appears nowhere in the New Essential Guide to Characters with Kadann appearing in the appendix with an altered storyline mentioning Trioculus. Laughingly, Trioculus himself is given no entry and Kadann is killed off by a random Grand Admiral Makati (whom nobody has ever heard of).

Looks like they're not canon.

Originally posted by IKC
By this logic, the "Choose Your Own Adventure" Star Wars books that followed the trilogy are canon too. Good job, Nai.


Argumentum ad absurdum. Fallacia non causae ut causae. Petitio principii. Or was that just an attempt to use some argumentum ad auditores ? Good job, IKC.



And again you have provided proof that "looking at the cover" doesn't equal "reading the book". The "Jedi princess" is called so by the people on Kessel and the reason for that is unknown. My cousin calls his daughter "princess" sometimes and I'm pretty sure that he isn't a king.

Triclops is still the supposed son of Palpatine and even then his mother is not known which leaves the possibility that Triclops is a failed Clone / Sith Alchemy experiment or he isn't Palpatine's son and this is just a legend / lie (see Irek Ismaren).

Palpatine having sex ? Let me think... You control the entire galaxy and happen to be the richest dude around and you totally hate all the rules the Jedi have established. Since you are an Emperor you might need heirs...what would you do ?

Again nice work with the logical fallacies:
- postulating "jedi royality" because somebody is called "princess", creating false syllogism - fallacia non causae ut causae
- postulating "Triclops was Palpatine's son" when this is not clearly stated in the source material - drawing own conclusion - fallacia non causae ut causae
- postulating that Palpatine must have sex with an alien in order to have a son with three eyes - again creating false sellogism - fallacia non causae ut causae again
- postulating "Palpatine having sex" as an absurd idea - try using an argumentum ad absurdum / Petitio principii



Ah yes. Grand Admiral Makati whom nobody has ever heard of. This is coming from the guy who owns Timothy Zahns "Visions of the Future" as he has shown me some weeks ago - the same book Makati is mentioned in for the first time. Missing many "details" like that ?

And he killed a pretender not the original Kadann. It basically works like this: The Jedi prince series was written, then the RPG mag Polyhydron (without authorisation) declared that this is a story told by Leia to her children (which is dumb) and the DS Sourcebook retconned this with declaring the Kadann appearing to be a pretender. Apparently LFL has put quite some effort into fitting the stories into the timeline like stating that the false Kadann was a pretender (DS Sourcebook), he tried to take power from Ysanne Isard despite the fact that she isn't mentioned in the books and shortening the events depicted from 5 to 1 year. Nice try of using an argumentum ad verecundiam.

By the way: Why did you attack this relative minor point at all ? Ignoratio elenchi ? The topic is "OT Obi-Wan and Vader vs Dooku" and not "Can we consider the Jedi Prince series to be canon"...

*hint* Maybe you should spend less time with certain Schopenhauer texts and try Platons "Sophist" dialogue or Aristotles "Topica" or "De Sophistici Elenchi" instead. *hint*

That was a lot of Latin...

I'm not sure the Emperor planned for heirs. He planned to live for 10,000 years with his clone bodies. Or so I read.

Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
I'm not sure the Emperor planned for heirs. He planned to live for 10,000 years with his clone bodies. Or so I read.

Even Palps had to know that everything ends sometime. There is no way the Empire would have lasted 10,000 years... unless something crazy happened.

Irrelevant misdirection. Strawman argument.

Your assertion: The Jedi Prince books (they're not actually titled that) are canon.

My assertion: They are not.

Your backup: LFL didn't declare them non-canon.

My backup: Absurdities and contradictions of established (and later) canon occur repeatedly throughout the books. The events depicted in the books are not referenced in any other EU primary source material.



And again you've provided proof that "glimpsing at my argument with your head up your ass" doesn't equal "reading comprehension."

The examples I excerpted were from the glossaries at the end of each book. Ergo, they were stated by the omniscient narrator and are not the words of a fallible third party calling another third party by a term of endearment.

False analogy, logical fallacy.



See above. He is declared by the omniscient narrator and the plot to be his literal son.



False premise. Palpatine doesn't need heirs, as we see in DE.



Except she is literally declared by the glossary (i.e. infallible party) to be a Jedi Princess. Your argument falls apart.



It's not clearly stated? Oh, I guess I must not have read it when in the back of the last three books they repeatedly name him as Palpatine's biological son, not to mention the frequency with which they bring up this fact in the book itself.



Except it's directly stated in the book. To quote C-3P0:

"A mutant - part human, part alien. Quite surprising. I've certainly never heard any gossip that Emperor Palpatine had a son by a three-eyed alien woman."

Huh. Looks like the books contradict you at every turn.



Given that DE shows he doesn't need heirs, that his body has been "ravaged by the Dark Side," and his supposed racism against non-humans, it certainly is an absurd notion to think Palpatine would canonically have sex with an alien woman to produce a three-eyed mutant heir to his throne.



Oh wow, he was mentioned. And I'm sure he struck fear into the heart of the New Rep... oh, wait. He was a bit player? Played a minor role in the book? Wow.

Ad hominem, logical fallacy. I'm sorry we all can't remember every picayune detail of a book we read eight years ago like you can, Nai, oh God of Star Wars Lore.



Irrelevant misdirection. I don't care how much LFL twists and turns to try and force the square peg of these six books into the round hole of canon as a whole, the series has yet to be firmly established into canon other than this "Kadann in this series was a fake! OMGWTFBBQ!" point you seem to be attempting.



Yeah Nai. My posts disputing the authenticity of your usage of non-canon children's books in a canonical argument are "attacks."



Irrelevant misdirection, argument from ignorance. An attempt at ad hominem?

*hint* Maybe you should back away from the Profundus Maximus School of Debate. *hint*

So is the "Droids" cartoon canon now? How about "Ewoks?"

I really don't see the point...

The Jedi Prince series has been reconned more than once untill LSL finally found it to their liking.

And it is C-Canon so really I don't see the point of arguing that it isn't canon just because it's stupid. Sure the series sucked, but that doesn't mean it isn't canon.

EU is full of contradictons and LSL tries to work those out. That's why they reconned the Jedi Prince books in the first place. They made some changes and fixed some minor details, but that's it.

I mean if canon was decided by what contradicts what within then we might as well declare KOTOR non-canon since it contradicts parts of TOTJ.

The larger point is that almost the entirety of the series cannot fit inside canon as a whole as it is constructed at this point in time. Like I said, sure, LFL has twisted and turned to try and force it into canon but that doesn't mean they've succeeded.

They'll have succeeded if they can answer this question: What happened during that time?

I don't understand how you guys can argue so much.


Once Logical Fallacy occurs from either party, the argument is rendered invalid.

Unless some of you are Filibusters OR you are stating the wrong statements among your arguments.


DUM Dum dum . . .

Originally posted by Antediluvian
I don't understand how you guys can argue so much.


Once Logical Fallacy occurs from either party, the argument is rendered invalid.

Unless some of you are Filibusters OR you are stating the wrong statements among your arguments.


DUM Dum dum . . .

They just enjoy arguing too much.

Strawman argument, irrelevant misdirection.

Point: These six books are no more canon than "Droids."



An incorrect one in the context in which you used it (i.e. bringing up Ken and the "Lost City" bullshit at all). If you were dealing strictly with what little LFL has hammered into canon from these books it wouldn't be a problem.



Except the vast majority of the characters and the plot itself are contradicted (and what isn't contradicted is almost never referenced outside of the series). The only element you can muster out of the entire book series is Kadann - and it turns out he was a fraud anyway!



Oh, they're outside the actual text? That's why they're in the book, right?

By your logic, the author's synopsis dictating much of Ragnos' power is outside the text and thus irrelevant and non-canon. At least mine were in the book itself.

They stand. Nice try.



The glossary will do.

As will the actual plot, given that Kadann uses the Jedi City's computer to relay to Ken the secret of his birth (his parents were Kendalina and Triclops, his grandfather Palpatine). And it's not as if Kadann was trying to fool him - the guardian droid Dee-Jay confirms the story.

It's established. Perhaps you should read the material. Maybe then you'll realize how ridiculously non-canon the vast majority of it is.



Appeal to ridicule. Arguing from ignorance.

He was speaking about Trioculus, actually, and he was more-so explaining what a mutant was - a human/alien hybrid.

"A mutant - part human, part alien."

QED



Oh yeah Nai. Because we know Palpatine gets his jollies from casual sex all the time. Man, he couldn't get enough of it. I guess that's why we never heard of him doing it.

No, Nai, it's your ignorance of this children's story you keep trying to establish as canon that's astounding.



Appeal to ridicule.

Work on your reading comprehension. I'd start with understanding sarcasm first.

You elevate nitpicking every petty statement (even those that are not necessarily part of the argument as a whole) to an industry.



- BFD
- Again, BFD. I like how Ysanne Isard doesn't much respond to, care about, or even acknowledge the existence of any mysterious Kadann character in other publications.
- "The other characters?" You mean Kadann? Because he's pretty much the only one that gets brought up with anything remotely close to regularity.

See, the others are a little too non-canon to jam into the larger storyline.



Strawman argument. Argumentum ad absurdum.

They are not canon mostly because they contradict G-Canon and other, more established (meaning more voluminous at the least) C-Canon. Examples:
Palpatine having a mutant son.

Zorba the Hutt being dropped into the sarlacc (the ROTJ one)... despite the fact that Boba Fett blew it up and the sarlacc hadn't fully recovered for years afterwards.

The very existence of the City on Yavin IV. Oh yeah, I'm sure Naga Sadow, the Massassi, and Exar Kun didn't find shit for a combined total of five thousand years of their presence on the moon.

Yeah, right.



Ad hominem.

Furthermore, the sentence (if you can call it that) doesn't even make sense in English.



No, Translation: You're attempting to appear more intelligent than you actually are by repeatedly throwing out how well-read you are and how many languages you can pull words from. I call you on being a blowhard and a "Profundus Maximus."

Your attempts to belittle me based on irrelevant material only serve to show how weak you are.



Huge irrelevant misdirection, but I like how you ignored "Droids," another children's piece.

I also like how my sources (well, just one - C3P0 - speaking on a subject of how mutants come about) are fallible but, to pull ad hominem tu quoque, the word of a fallible third party making a metaphor is absolute.

Your only consistency is inconsistency.



Factual error. The background information is confirmed by the databases in the Jedi City as well as reinforced by common rumor (at least in the series) that the Emperor had a three-eyed son.

Oh, and Kadann didn't need Triclops for much of anything. He already ruled the Empire (minus the pathetic moffs who didn't seem to have forces of their own) by declaring that the "Dark One of ancient times" spoke through him.

Get a better grasp of the material before you go trying to declare them canon so that you can use convenient facts from them.

Originally posted by IKC
Point: These six books are no more canon than "Droids."


By your personal opinion. That's it. Period.



If you want to deal with things LFL and Lucas have strictly hammered into canon, Vader would tool Exar Kun and ROTJ Luke would bring down ancient Sith Lords because "t3h m0v1e5 aRe t3h h1ghest level of canon".

You can't use the term "canon" like you want sort the different sources into different categories based on the criteria "Where does IKC want to put the stuff" and "How does the stuff fit into IKC's personal view of the SW universe". Let people who dislike the EU anyways judge the EU (maybe ask anomaly for details) and they can give you dozens of contradictions in every EU source. Again: All N-Canon ?



What is contradicted and by what sources ? Go by the own definition of canon and you will find the little thing called S-Canon.

"S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories. Many of the materials labelled as S-canon are older sources which may or may not fit within the continuity, but which have not been fully evaluated prior to inclusion in the Holocron database."

So have you any C-canon or G-canon source directly stating that Palpatine couldn't have had a son directly contradicting the series ? No ? Than this can be considered canon.

Do you have any C-canon or G-canon source directly stating that the Lost City of the Jedi couldn't have existed ? No. What you have is suggestions and please consider the following facts: Yavin 4 is an planetoid with 4 different continents, mostly covered by jungle. What do you think how high is the posibility that

a) Sadow and a relative small group of his Massassi landing on continent X will casually discover a hidden Jedi facility that was abandoned millenia before they reached the place ?

b) Freedon Nadd doing so while he probably stayed close to Sadow to train in the ways of the Dark Side ?

c) Exar Kun staying close to (or within) the Massassi temples (as living being as well as in his spirit form) discovering the place ?

d) Luke using / mentioning the place again after he partitially destroyed it and the only usable stuff (the computer) was destroyed too when he had all the nice temples for his Jedi Order ?

If you want to go by the reason "the material is only shown in one series" I can do the same: The "Temple of the Blueleaf Cluster" is just mentioned in "I, Jedi" so is it non-existant ? You have the "Temple of the Woolamander" in the Young Jedi Knight series. And apparently nobody even stepped into it for 11 years despite the fact that it was just beneath the "Blueleaf Temple" and just a small river seperated it from the Great Temple.



Can you please tell me how a computer on a hidden location and a droid on the same location would have gained knowledge about Ken's birth and even more the origin of Triclops and Ken's mother ? Logically it must have been installed past Ken's birth, right ? And that leaves only two people to do it: The Jedi that took Ken to the place (most likely Obi-Wan) or Kadann (trying to bullshit his way through).

And just think of the following. The story happens in 5 ABY. Ken is 12 meaning he was born in 7 BBY and unless Triclops was 12 years or younger when he became father he himself must have been born before ROTS most likely even before the Clone Wars started.



See holocron entry for S-Canon. Unless a particular event is not directly contradicted by higher level canon (C-Canon, G-Canon) even if the overall storyline seems to be messed the non-contradictional parts are counted as canon. And canon would be:

"N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), most game stats, fanon, fanfiction (eg. custom made movies like Revelations and Pink Five), and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm."

There you go.



Oh come on, IKC. This "I exeggerate your statement up to the point I can use it against you" play should be beyond you.
I never saw Nomi and Andur Sunrider "doing it" and we have Vima.
I never saw Anakin and Padme "dancing between the sheets" and we have Luke and Leia.
I never saw Ki-Adi-Mundi "play hide and seek with the one-eyed trouser snake" with one of his four wives and still he had seven daughters.
I (luckily) never saw Vima-Da-Boda's "playing birds and bees" and still we had Neema-Da-Boda.
And I never saw Leia riding Han's "old bone rollercoaster" and still we have Jacen, Jaina and Anakin.

The point is: Sexual intercourse just happens in the SW universe and the mere fact that we never see person X (Sidious) doing it doesn't mean he didn't. Using that as an argument we won't have that many visible proofs of said thing happening in the EU.



I try to establish it as S-Canon as I basically said before. Do you have a C-Canon or G-Canon source with a storyline happening in 7 BBY which made it impossible for Obi-Wan to take a child from Kessel and place it in the Lost City or do you have a C/G-Canon source which places events in the year 5 ABY directly contradicting the events shown in the series ?



The contradiction is where exactly ? Did I miss the "And...aside of all that stuff happening here, I just wanted to say that Palpatine did never had a mutant son" line in some of the sources ? It doesn't fit your picture of Sidious. It does fit Lucas picture about everybody in the SW universe (even Jedi). Who has more authority here ?



Is this why the Hutt was vomited out into the desert night instead of "finding a new definition of pain and suffering" while being "slowly digested over a thousand years" ? Sure the Sarlacc was damaged but I didn't see the quote saying it didn't recover for years and I don't see a point in assuming that it shouldn't have been able to "get a Hutt thrown into it" and then "not eat this Hutt but vomiting him into the desert".



See above. The fact that some peole are living on a nearly earth-sized planet having 4 continents and being covered with jungle surely helps when it comes to hiding a base that was left 5,000 years before Sadow came to Yavin 4.
How many things you can discover if you built temples on location X, worship Sadow as a god on said location (Massassi) come to visit Sadow on said location (Nadd) or wander around as a Sith spirit on said location (Kun) ?

Yes. Allright. Shall I give you some information about the German educational system or do you want to fetch it yourself before starting such dumb-ass flame attempts, "cowboy".

Before attacking my educational level (especially in terms of languages) I suggest you to read that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany
Then have a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28school%29

And then you can live with the fact that I had to go through 9 years of learning English (grades 5-13), 5 years of Latin (grades 7-11), 3 years of Spanish (grades 11-13) and - just for fun - 2 years of Ancient Greek.
And since we have that nice subject called "philosophy" as obligatory subject if you don't participate in the religious education (choice given to you from the age of 14) I had to do that in grades 11-13 too.

Add 3 years of University education (medieval history, German linguistics, philosophy) on top of that (including learning some Sanskrit and Islandic) and the result is me.

Probably you did notice that I type that stuff here in a foreign language. If that's not enough I can hand you scans of my school reports, my identity card, my student card and performance records (University). If I am a blowhard you are the equivalent of a paramecium that has blow up itself to the size of an elephant and is about to explode every second with somebody that had "real" education shows up. Ah yes..."ad hominem"...haha.

And it's nice how you keep replying with personal insults. I attack you knowledge you show. You attack an unknown and missinterprete this as an attack "ad hominem". And then instead of keeping your self-estimated superiority you reply with the same stuff you accuse me to use. What about watching ANH again and find the answer to following question: "Who is the greater fool, the fool or the fool who follows him?" (ANH Kenobi).



You win, I lose.
I'm tired of debating a topic that isn't coming close to the original topic because Mr. IKC has forgotten to take his pills. I said this once and I say it again: Sophistic arguments should be beyond you. But ok. You receive my todays A.A.I.S.S reward and that's it.

Wow, I think I came back a little late...when the Jedi Prince series was written, no doubt Triclops was intended to be Palpatine's son...however, the majority of authors have retconned and rewritten that series the hell out of existence. The Kadann we see there isn't even the real Kadann now....actually, I'm also pretty sure Boba killed the Sarlaac when he blew its side open. That's from the Mandalorian Armor trilogy, and Dengar's short story.

Let's please try to stay on topic.

Even Palps had to know that everything ends sometime. There is no way the Empire would have lasted 10,000 years... unless something crazy happened.

The Republic, something far weaker than the Galactic Empire stood in power for 25,000 years. Had Palpatine not been overconfident at the Battle of Endor, or had Luke been less lucky at the Battle of Yavin, the Alliance would have been destroyed the Empire would be supreme, until new rebels pop up.

Palpatine's largest issue was he favored extreme cruelty and brutality to his subjects...instead of demonizing Tarkin, the Imperials tried to cover Alderaan up and pin it on the Rebels.

i dont think old ben and vader could win. their old, like dooku, but they havent had need to keep up their saber skills to the degree as dooku had during ep 3. obi wan cant even spar with anyone without revealing himself as a jedi. vader is slowerbut stronger, dooku is too fast and precise. while vader than spar and keep at a high degree of saber skill, there is no need for it, and other duties probably keep him from it. while their both still great duelists, in their old age they just havent kept the degree of skill dooku has.

Vader has been keeping up with his practice, and has been learning from Sidious for the past twenty years. Vader is an exceptional duelist as seen in many comics, especially Crimson Empire. His knowledge of the dark side is far more than Dooku. Also, when you add Kenobi, Ben has more knowledge of the lightside. Vader takes him in a duel while Kenobi attacks with the force. Together, they rip him apart. In EU, Vader alone has shown us much more impressive powers than Dooku. This computer in my Computer Applications class can't go to swcomics.com, and I have a project to work on later at home, I'll post some links at a later point.

I wish to note that the Jedi Prince series has been made part of EU...retconning doesn't mean they took bits and pieces, it means they took the whole thing and told us other things in addition to make it fit.

Originally posted by Decay
i dont think old ben and vader could win. their old, like dooku, but they havent had need to keep up their saber skills to the degree as dooku had during ep 3. obi wan cant even spar with anyone without revealing himself as a jedi. vader is slowerbut stronger, dooku is too fast and precise. while vader than spar and keep at a high degree of saber skill, there is no need for it, and other duties probably keep him from it. while their both still great duelists, in their old age they just havent kept the degree of skill dooku has.

Vader practiced every day and killed other force users on an almost regular basis...he isn't slow either

Compared to the count, he is. VERY SLOW

He kept up with Maul. Easily

That was in a lame comic.....

He also squares off with...six Jedi. Simultaneously

Crappy Jedi of the caliber of TPM Obi-Wan.

All masters. All powerful, skilled masters, actually. One of whom was a freaking ex-Morgukai

vader might have practiced alot, but not against the kind of opponent he would have been fighting during the days of the jedi. i cant see sidious taking out his saber and sparring with vader. hes a great fighter, no question, he can take out humans no trouble, but up against a sith lord who had beaten mace windu in combat and proven himself second only to yoda i think vader is lacking.

and ben would be good with the force, but the light side lacks the serious offencive edge of the dark side. i still say dooku takes it.

The dark Woman, the Inquisitors, the other Jedi he killed...

he was good. but most arnt jedi masters, and none are skilled enough to survive an encounter with dooku for much longer than obi wan did in aotc. vader is good, but dooku would pick him part.

Most of the people he was killing were Jedi Masters, actually.