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I been intrigue by this man ever since reading about the abolishment of the crown in England. I was shock to when I read he was consider a Dictator by certain historians. But don't you guys think that Cromwell was key for England success? Also, how many of you feel that there was no need to execute Charles I? He already had sympathy over the British. Was the execution really necessary? Did his legacy change England?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I been intrigue by this man ever since reading about the abolishment of the crown in England. I was shock to when I read he was consider a Dictator by certain historians. But don't you guys think that Cromwell was key for England success? Also, how many of you feel that there was no need to execute Charles I? He already had sympathy over the British. Was the execution really necessary? Did his legacy change England?

I believe that some of Cromwells actions and etc were quite.. daft... but he was surely not a dictator! I dont exactly know that much about Cromwell .. but wth

Didn't they dig him up after he died, just to kill him again? I guess someone didn't like him. If I'm thinking of the right guy.

Erm...not a dictator?

Cromwell fought a civil war to champion democracy. Then when the parliament he made didn't do what he wanted he used the army to force it into executing Charles, then when the parliament was bbusy fillings it's own pokets Cromwell decided this isnt't what he wanted and decided he'd do a better job using his army. He was a monarch without the blood or crown, and a Dictator.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I been intrigue by this man ever since reading about the abolishment of the crown in England. I was shock to when I read he was consider a Dictator by certain historians. But don't you guys think that Cromwell was key for England success? Also, how many of you feel that there was no need to execute Charles I? He already had sympathy over the British. Was the execution really necessary? Did his legacy change England?

Oh yeah... Cromwell was a dictator. He went from being a man for the common people and the faith to being a dictator who made just as big a mess as he attempted to prevent. Thankfully, he didn't last long.

Cromwell is considered a vile war criminal for some of his acts in Ireland. It is a very bitter area.

He led the revolution that led to effective democratic rule in Engalnd. But as to what he was like as a person? Just look at this personal legacy- it didn't last one generation before his system was destroyed and the Monarchy restored.

The best is the Monty Python song dedicated to him. It barely makes sense (either that, or there's some hidden meaning I can't decipher). But it's completely random and priceless.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Oh yeah... Cromwell was a dictator. He went from being a man for the common people and the faith to being a dictator who made just as big a mess as he attempted to prevent. Thankfully, he didn't last long.

Yup, However whats worring is Charles the I & II have dissolved parliament, what if our third does it?

Lord Protector Blair?


(Cherie ofcourse )

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Cromwell is considered a vile war criminal for some of his acts in Ireland. It is a very bitter area.

He led the revolution that led to effective democratic rule in Engalnd. But as to what he was like as a person? Just look at this personal legacy- it didn't last one generation before his system was destroyed and the Monarchy restored.

Ush, that is what I want to get clear from here on so there won't be any misunderstandings. What exactly did Cromwell do? A Revolution or a Coup d'etat?

I'd say the latter.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Ush, that is what I want to get clear from here on so there won't be any misunderstandings. What exactly did Cromwell do? A Revolution or a Coup d'etat? Originally posted by Janus Marius
I'd say the latter.
I'd say the first, in a sense, and definately the second.

It started off as a revolution and ended up becoming a coup d'etat.

High Treason resulting in murder/displacement of ruler = coup d'etat

This is what puzzles me....why would Cromwell be found guilty of Treason and yet they make a statue of him outside the Palace of Westminster? I feel that he wasn't a traitor. Maybe to the royals but not the British Parlimant.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Ush, that is what I want to get clear from here on so there won't be any misunderstandings. What exactly did Cromwell do? A Revolution or a Coup d'etat?

He was a leading member of the anti-royallist facgion in the Civil War. He didn't start the war, nor was the war really a popular rebellion- who was more popular was pretty much anyone's call.

But when things were nearing the end, he took control. Let's not forget some means by which he did this:


1. When Parliament took a vote on whether to execute the King or not, Cromwell's troops occupied Parliament and only allowed those who voted for execution to vote at all.

It's hard to connect this with being a wondrous paragon of people power.


2. He ordered several massacres, including the most famous at Drogheda, and 2000 people wiped out at Wexford when his men broke into the place during surrender negotiations.

Now, a lot of this has to be seen in the context of the time. It was a grim time and sides never gave quarter to each other. Cromwell was not being exceptionally worse than most other military leaders of the time. But this hardly makes him out as a liberating hero.


3. Cromwell stole land from the Irish on mostly religious grounds, and inflicted his personal, and very harsh, religious beliefs on the British population as a whole, backed up by force of arms. When Parliament disagreed, he dissolved it- therefore ending up exactly as the King he had killed had done.

Again, such rule was not unusual. But for all his pleas of democracy, Cromwell was ruling as a dictator, and was eliminating anyone who stood in his way. To follow it up, he had his own son succeed him as ruler. Hmm?


It's hard to call this part of a popular revolution. Cromwell finished things others had started- but he finished them by eliminating the previous ruler with his own private army, then using that army to spread terror to his enemies and rule absolutely at home.

That defines itself better as a coup d'etat.

BUT

Let this not make out Cromwell to be a generally bad thing. Cromwell's life is very complicated and several historians specialise in purely this area, and why he did what he did. What cannot be denied is that he finished the idea that Kings had a right to rule just by existing. Divine Right was killed off in the UK at this time, and a good thing too. When the Monarchy was re-established, it was by popular demand, and so the concept of Constitutional Monarchy- which serves the UK to this day- was created.

As for treason? He was actually executed as a traitor after conviction.

Admittedly it was after he already died, so they actually dug up his body and 're' killed it... but technically speaking, yes, he was.

-

Cromwell's statue stands outside a Parliament that he himself attacked more than the King had. So why is it there?

As a symbol of the birth of Democracy, and how Kings cannot rule against their own people. Parliamentarians like Cromwell would not let them.

Nice summary there. Well said.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
The best is the Monty Python song dedicated to him. It barely makes sense (either that, or there's some hidden meaning I can't decipher). But it's completely random and priceless.

Anyone? No?

...Bueller? ...Bueller?

...

I guess this forum is still too young to get that easily sidetracked.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Didn't they dig him up after he died, just to kill him again? I guess someone didn't like him. If I'm thinking of the right guy.

yup they certainly did ...i went to warwick castle tother week and they had some info and displays about him INC his death mask they dug him up and hung draw and quatered him

Cromwell a war criminal, well you could say the same thing about Tony Blair.

Oliver Cromwell: Lord Protector or Tyranical Ruler?

Methinks his a little bit of both.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
This is what puzzles me....why would Cromwell be found guilty of Treason and yet they make a statue of him outside the Palace of Westminster? I feel that he wasn't a traitor. Maybe to the royals but not the British Parlimant.

He did betray the English Parliament, he sacked it when it didn't opperate the way he felt it should...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/member.php?action=logout

in some ways he was useful, in others he was a total looney.

the abolishment of the crown was usaeful, because it eliminated the hereditory aspect of the crown, and thus you get a better ruler of the kingdom through democrocy, or a military coup, because that way u were garenteed a strong ruler.

the bad side was he was a tyrant. and a traiter

I think he started with very noble intentions but ended up becoming the same thing as what he wanted to get rid off

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Anyone? No?

...Bueller? ...Bueller?

...

I guess this forum is still too young to get that easily sidetracked.





I know the song. It's good, but MP have much better songs (Lumberjack Song, Every Sperm is sacred, I've got two legs lol).

And yes, Cromwell was a true dictator.

Don't forget he also banned anything that was fun - Christmas, singing. He was VERY Puritanical.

As for the statue of him outside Parliament - well, don't forget that Parliament is, as an institution, anti-monarchial. Indeed, the last monarch allowed to set foot inside the House of Commons was - Charles I. The Restoration wasn't just a 'back to the old days' job. England was now a 'Constitutional' Monarchy, and while this was never necessarily written down, series of acts from the 'Glorious Revolution' (when William of Orange was invited by Parliament to take the throne from James II) right up to the reign of Queen Victoria and the Bedchamber crisis (where the true power of the monarch was effectively taken away) eventually ebbed the monarch's power away.

Cromwell's place in history should be seen as something that, while failing in itself, nevertheless was the turning point in the history of England.

Another result of his rule was something he could never have forseen. Cromwell had created the new model army - one of, if not, THE first professional standing army in the world. When Charles II came to power, he put his efforts into building up the Royal Navy, in direct contrast to the army. British naval tradition was thus born (never mind Francis Drake - he was nothing but a Pirate) which enabled the British Empire to develop which changed the face of the world.

Phew!
*takes breath*

I would say so. He was both a dictator and a dick. Damn Puritans.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Erm...not a dictator?

Cromwell fought a civil war to champion democracy. Then when the parliament he made didn't do what he wanted he used the army to force it into executing Charles, then when the parliament was bbusy fillings it's own pokets Cromwell decided this isnt't what he wanted and decided he'd do a better job using his army. He was a monarch without the blood or crown, and a Dictator.

he had plenty of blood

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Oh yeah... Cromwell was a dictator. He went from being a man for the common people and the faith to being a dictator who made just as big a mess as he attempted to prevent. Thankfully, he didn't last long.

a man of the people??
he quashed the levellers demands

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Cromwell is considered a vile war criminal for some of his acts in Ireland. It is a very bitter area.

He led the revolution that led to effective democratic rule in England. But as to what he was like as a person? Just look at this personal legacy- it didn't last one generation before his system was destroyed and the Monarchy restored.
Parliament offered his son the title of Lord protector.

Parliament were sheep that knew no better than hereditary rite, so they reneged on their principles and tried to formulate another
hereditary power structure.
Thankfully the son (Richard) was pish
so CHarley II was brought back by Parliament to assassinate a lot of them in revenge of his father.

slap it up them

Oliver Cromwell: Prick.

Tyranical Ruler duh