most powerful villlians

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drwerwer
out of the x-men ff and avenger which team do you think has the most powerful villians
personally i think the x-men

Thunderstrike
F*#@ that. The Avengers. Count Nefaria, the Kree, the Skrulls, the Shi'ar, and many others. Sorry, but the Avengers deal with Galaxy wide threats all the time.

drwerwer
true but you could count the shi'ar as x-men enemys and if you count onslaught as an x-men villian then that would make their vllians a liitle bit more powerful

Deadpool14
Kang and Galactus: avengers

Thunderstrike
The X-Men aren't enemies of the Shi'ar. The Avengers were. Read Operation: Galactic Storm. The Shi'ar took out a good chunk of the Kree empire.

Validus
Originally posted by Deadpool14
Kang and Galactus: avengers
Galactus is more F4 related than any other villain.

drwerwer
yea that is what i thought about galactus

outarddwarf
fantastic four!

leonidas
tough to argue against the ff, here. doom, galactus, abraxas, aron the rogue watcher. they even went up against the dreaming celestial! the avengers rogue isn't bad, but the ff take this one, methinks.

Lucid Lui
Originally posted by Thunderstrike
The X-Men aren't enemies of the Shi'ar. Quite true. As long as they're nowhere near each other they're good friends. But pretty much everytime they meet they're fighting.

S.S
Avengers also have Korvac but I'll go with the Fantastic Four aswell.

King_Mungi
Brief List of Fantastic Four Villians:
1. http://www.rapsheet.co.uk/RapSheetMain/FantasticFour.asp

Brief List of Avengers Villians:
1. http://www.rapsheet.co.uk/RapSheetMain/Avengers.asp
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You could add Alpha Flight to the list as they have uber powerful villians

Brief List of Alpha Flight Villians:
1. http://www.rapsheet.co.uk/RapSheetMain/AlphaFlight.asp

Another fullier list of Alpha Flight Villians:
1. http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Category:Villains

Lucid Lui
Impossible Man owns all.

GalacticStorm
The Fantastic Four consistently deal with foes of a high calibre, so they win overall, but the X-men are the group who have dealt with the most powerful threats i.e Phoenix and the M'kraan crystal. wink

Thunderstrike
The Phoenix and M'kraan were one darn time. The Avengers have taken on empires at a time. Operation Galactic Storm and the Kree-Skrull War are evidence of that. The Phoenix Saga and Dark Phoenix Saga were the fate of one person. Galactic Storm and K-S War still are having their effects on Marvel.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Thunderstrike
The Phoenix and M'kraan were one darn time. The Avengers have taken on empires at a time. Operation Galactic Storm and the Kree-Skrull War are evidence of that. The Phoenix Saga and Dark Phoenix Saga were the fate of one person. Galactic Storm and K-S War still are having their effects on Marvel.

All of that is irrelevant. The thread is pertaining to the most powerful villains faced by the teams. The Phoenix Force is more powerful than any force the Avengers or the Fantastic Four have had to deal with in their own titles, same with the M'kraan crystal, thats the crux of the matter. So what if the effects of Op GS are still being felt? What does that have to do with the relative power of the threat? confused

Nothing at all.

As aforementioned, the F4 consistently deal with a higher calibre of foe whilst the X-men have faced the most powerful foe out of all the teams.

Thunderstrike
That's the thing though. The Avengers have fought the Shi'ar empire, The Kree, and the Skrulls. The X-Men never fought the Phoenix Force, and the Phoenix took care of the crystal itself. To be honest, those really are what's irrelivant here. Who really has fought the Phoenix force? All I know is that the LT cradled it in it's hands like a child.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Thunderstrike
That's the thing though. The Avengers have fought the Shi'ar empire, The Kree, and the Skrulls. The X-Men never fought the Phoenix Force, and the Phoenix took care of the crystal itself. To be honest, those really are what's irrelivant here. Who really has fought the Phoenix force? All I know is that the LT cradled it in it's hands like a child.

The X-men fought the Phoenix Force in the Dark Phoenix Saga, the Phoenix Force is more powerful than any force the other teams have faced in their own titles. You can talk to me about the Avengers facing off against empires and whatever, but big wow Phoenix ate stars, Phoenix held the universe in the palm of her hand, Phoenix is the Big Bang which made the universe in the first place. In comparison to that, facing off against empires is insignificant.

Youre quite correct about the crystal however, it was less a threat they had to face down and more a potential threat they helped prevent.

Either way this thread is about the most powerful villains and as such all your comments about the amount of times the X-men faced the Phoenix are irrelevant.

LT did hold Phoenix in his hand, however it wasnt a scene intended to show LT was greater because it did nothing of the sort, they were merely conversing and whilst LT said he didnt want Phoenix to bond to a host at that time, it was also stated that Phoenix for the time being would heed his word for the sake of the multiverse as her power was too great. So it wasnt that LT had power enough to force Phoenix to do his will, Phoenix saw that LT was right and so she CHOSE to listen to him.

This is supported by the subsequent release of X-men Forever which shows that every creation cycle the Phoenix replaces the abstracts and LT with the evolved humanity of that reality. So the abstracts of the current universe are the evolved humanity of the previous universe. (Look at Galactus. Phoenixes role in his creation was added to his bio after X-men Forever) Phoenix is the Force that maintains this process and keeps it going throughout the multiverse cycle after cycle. Hence the scan you have seen in the LT respect thread of LT and the abstracts bowing before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger.

I rest my case. Know your stuff!! eek!

Thunderstrike
Like I've told you before, I haven't read X-Men comics since Colossus died, so they've evidently done more with the Phoenix Force. To be honest, I think it stinks. It goes from the entity that guards the Mkraan crystal to something that is the catalyst of all creation? The last I had read about the Phoenix Force was that it's the nexus of all Psionic Energy in the universe, and didn't have anything to do with creation.

Thunderstrike
You do have me convinced though. However, when it comes to galactic peacekeeping and war involvement, that's probably what the Avengers are best known for.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Like I've told you before, I haven't read X-Men comics since Colossus died, so they've evidently done more with the Phoenix Force. To be honest, I think it stinks. It goes from the entity that guards the Mkraan crystal to something that is the catalyst of all creation? The last I had read about the Phoenix Force was that it's the nexus of all Psionic Energy in the universe, and didn't have anything to do with creation.

The Phoenix Force has been linked to creation and the Big Bang since its conception. It was often called the alpha and omega, the embodiment of the creation cycle when Chris Claremont introduced the character, plus in Excalibur in the early 90's it was shown that it was the Big Bang that created the marvel universe. With all that in mind i cant see how you couldve missed all of this, its not a newly introduced concept.

The problem is that Phoenix is a protected character. It is rarely allowed to be featured outside of X-men comics or to be touched by anyone in Marvel other than by X-men writers. Therefore when people see these big cosmic sagas popping up all over the place and see no mention of Phoenix then they wrongly assume its not that important in the cosmic scheme of things. Its all down to politics at Marvel. Theres two camps x-men writers/editors and everyone else.

Thunderstrike
Hmm, so let me try to get the order of things. (btw, I never read Excalibur)

Phoenix makes the Big Bang
Galan survives it, becomes Galactus
Galactus goes around eating planets til it's time for a new universe to form.
Phoenix triggers the next one.
Galactus' herald at the time becomes the next Galactus, and it all goes happily ever after.

Sounds to me like it fits well with the cosmic side of things if you take the time to think about how it would work.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Hmm, so let me try to get the order of things. (btw, I never read Excalibur)

Phoenix makes the Big Bang
Galan survives it, becomes Galactus
Galactus goes around eating planets til it's time for a new universe to form.
Phoenix triggers the next one.
Galactus' herald at the time becomes the next Galactus, and it all goes happily ever after.

Sounds to me like it fits well with the cosmic side of things if you take the time to think about how it would work.

Phoenix less makes the Big Bang and more manifests as it. Each creation cycle Phoenix is reborn into creation as the Big Bang and at the end (in the natural scheme of things) is absorbed back into the white hot room via the M'kraan crystal.

As for the Galactus bit, i take it you've read or been told of "The Last Galactus Story"? Well that isnt canon so Galactus' role in 616 is unknown.

All we've been told is the Phoenix embodies life (it manifests as the Big Bang) and the creation cycle. It is the trigger that sparks off reality, the fuel that keeps it going and the fire that ends it. One of the things the Phoenix fuels is evolution. Every creation cycle a race evolves which transcends the physical and becomes one with creation, they are to be the new abstracts of the next universe.

In X-men Forever Stranger sought to use Phoenix to control evolution and therefore all reality and the abstracts, hence that scene you saw. As aforementioned Phoenix is a protected character and as such its status in the cosmic scheme of things has been inconsistent. Sometimes its written as the be all and end all of creation and sometimes as just an after effect of it.

Thunderstrike
Actually, I'm going with "The Origin of Galactus." It was printed in 96. It's canonical in 616. Galactus has also claimed to be the be all and end all of the universe, which has lead me to believe that he's essential to the creative cycle, and the stability of the 616 universe. There's a lot of things that do need to be cleared up about the Purple Planet Eater, but it bugs me that people say he can't back up what he claims when you've got all of Asgard, the Watchers, and many others who say that his power is so vast that it's ridiculous. I have a feeling that there is a way to fit the Phoenix Force and Galactus into the whole span of the Big Bang of 616.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Actually, I'm going with "The Origin of Galactus." It was printed in 96. It's canonical in 616. Galactus has also claimed to be the be all and end all of the universe, which has lead me to believe that he's essential to the creative cycle, and the stability of the 616 universe. There's a lot of things that do need to be cleared up about the Purple Planet Eater, but it bugs me that people say he can't back up what he claims when you've got all of Asgard, the Watchers, and many others who say that his power is so vast that it's ridiculous. I have a feeling that there is a way to fit the Phoenix Force and Galactus into the whole span of the Big Bang of 616.

I have the Origin of Galactus and nowhere does it refer to Galactus' herald becoming the new Galactus in the new universe. That contradicts whats been established by X-men Forever about an evolved humanity going on to become the fundamental forces.

Also what you need to remember is that the Origin of Galactus may have been canon back in 96 but since then its elements have been retconned by subsequent comic releases making its events not entirely canonical. For example Phoenix has now been introduced into his origin as you'll find out by reading Galactus' latest bio.

Galactus may have once claimed to be the be all and end all of the universe and whilst at the time he said that it may have been true, but since then we know conclusively that that is NOT the case as we have seen him trumped by a variety of powers and his status has taken a nose dive over the last 20 years. While he is still an essential of the universe, he is far from top tier power wise. Remember retcons happen all the time so character comments can be rendered irrelevant.

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