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Setting Is in Nadds tomb who wins?!!

This has been done before, and I don't remeber the victor. Think it was Ragnos.

Use the search engine. Has been done before. And yes, Ragnos wins.

I remember a time when everyone considered NJO Luke and Ragnos to be equals.

It still persists. The idea that Ragnos is somehow a force god isn't exactly a majority either. NJO Luke's power's shown to be frankly incredible. Still don't see how Ragnos takes this.

You've debated that before, don't insist on continuing this thread for that sake.

Ragnos crushes Luke like a bug.

When we have false blanket statements like that, Tangible, it's hard not to. But, of course...Ragnos wins because he's 'ancient' and 'mysterious'

"Captain, we seem to have encountered something..."

"Oh my God. It's a Wall of Ignorance!"

"Damn! We can't do anything to stop it from being there! Ensign Ethnic, get us out of here!"

Why actually try to refute when you can insult? Internet really that serious for you? Os arguing the power of two fictious characters really so important you need to resort to that?

I'd really like to know why you rate Luke as so impressive.

Something about a guy who can damage star destroyers with the force, actively communicate with crystals, master numerous Jedi techniques, become an avatar of the force at one point, channeling the full power of the light like Jacen and Ganner have done, communicated with spirits that have passed on through the Force, broke the dark side presences on several areas, was described as a maelstrom of force energy, but calm and focused, fought through an army, killed the elite Vong warriors and then squared off with Overlord Shimrra, the greatest warrior the Vong had and killed him...he's also produced extremely powerful and real illusions, including fleets, almost instinctively taught himself dueling...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why actually try to refute when you can insult? Internet really that serious for you? Os arguing the power of two fictious characters really so important you need to resort to that?

Funny that you'd use that statement when you come out of a 3 month post-pwn hibernation for a favorable Sidious quote that was much ado about nothing and didn't even establish anything for certain.

-yawn- When you're done being a hypocrite, come back to me.

Been over this before with Sorgo. Styles convinced me to come back...and that has what balance on this argument? We call that a fallacy. And Misdirection. And frankly, irrelevant. And, oh yes, my argument has a bit mroe to back it up minus an obscure quote about someone who's never even appeared alive in Star Wars

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Been over this. Has no bearing on this argument.

No, but hypocrisy, one-sided arguments, and sheer bias have everything to do with it.

Which easily applies to the opposite side. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't someone try to argue 'in history' didn't mean 'of all time?'

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which easily applies to the opposite side. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't someone try to argue 'in history' didn't mean 'of all time?'

A pre-source sourcebook quote that has been likely retconned and an in-universe source of whom the official author has even said does not establish anything with any level of certainty is definitive how?

Before the author came here. And I provided quotes and links proving that sourcebooks go...and retcons happen. You have the official author';s word on that, too. Counts as much as any book.

And once more, there's that hypocrisy again...I'm still waiting for that god amongs god and most powerful of all time quotes, especially as the other end has never appeared alive in this fight, and we have the official author saying it could change at the drop of a dime. We also have the Ancient Sith's entire war effort being destroyed in a matter of days at most. And proof of the retcon? Sith Empire still starts at 7000 BBY, Blotus the Hutt was still a chancellor...

And ultimately I was arguing that there were interpretations on the quote that could be taken involving "history," "strongest," and "most powerful." Evidently, I was correct that there were possible interpretations of the quote and it wasn't binding.

So now, I'm a hypocrite for being right?

I caught you red-handed in a case of hypocrisy and bias, yet somehow, you trying to dispute it. You're better off forgetting about it and going home instead of making it worse with each passing post.

Being right? The author confirmed he meant 'of all time.' And yes, in a book of Star Wars history, 'in history' would apply to a singular era given twenty pages of coverage. Dan confirmed it could change depending on who's writing.

Once more: I'm still waiting for those quotes. At the very least, my side has a leg to stand on minus vague quotes that apply to five thousand years before the Imperials fall. You want to talk about hypocrisy and bias? Try writing off destroying a fleet and praising destroying a star with an electrical weapon. Bias? Discounting everything on Palp's power made official in several writings and source books and taking even the vaguest quote on the Ancients as great power when they got their asses kicked on three worlds.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Bias? Discounting everything on Palp's power made official in several writings and source books and taking even the vaguest quote on the Ancients as great power when they got their asses kicked on three worlds.

So, we shouldn't take into account Mace Windu putting Sidious on his ass? Sidious being tossed down a reactor shaft by a mechanical arm? Or being destroyed by 2.5 people?

How many times must we run through that? Dark Empire states they used the entire force to block shield Palpatine from the light, Palpatine was focused on Luke and Anakin was destined to destroy him, the Mace part's up for debate.

Once more, double standards

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How many times must we run through that? Dark Empire states they used the entire force to block shield Palpatine from the light, Palpatine was focused on Luke and Anakin was destined to destroy him, the Mace part's up for debate.

Yes, they used. They = 2 people and a fetus. And, the Mace part is hardly up for a debate of any sort.

Tell that to the 'no coincidences' in Star Wars fact.

And yes, 2.5 people channeling the entire force on someone, who could ever be stopped by something so trivial...

Sama's right,GL confirmed it and said Mace dropped Palpy faster than a drug addict having an overdose.An what the Dan said means nothing,he said it himself,his opinion on Sids and Ragnos power doesn't matter,Kevin's does.Go back to the topic if you need proof.

He said he overpowered him, easily applicable to 'Palpatine was holding back and allowed Mace to overpower him.' See?

And no, Kevin's opinions wouldn't matter much either if LFL decides otherwhise...dan's opinion said issue may not matter, but he sure as hell clarified on some semantics, like books/sourcebooks/comics, what he meant, etc.

Yes Kevin's opinions on it WOULD matter,considering he wrote both DE(I think) and TOTJ,LFL just hired this guy to type all of this up,Kevin made TOTJ (and possibly DE),he made all the facts,Dan didn't,Dan just provided his opinion,which doesn't matter in this case,because he didn't write TOTJ nor did he write DE.

Actually, no, he didn't write DE. LFL controls things, Dan wallace clarified tha.t They overwrote some of Kevin's stuff already. And Dan's opinion is still in an official source, which is the same as Zahn's, but noone complains about Thrawn being the best tactician, over Ackbar and Revan.

Kevin is far, far second to LFL, who decide things. No matter what he intended, it's been a decade and it can change

Eh, I just find I cease to care on the issue at the moment...respond later. I have work tomorrow, so I probably won't reply then. I'm still waiting for KJA's email

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, no, he didn't write DE.


But actually Veitch did participate in writing TOTJ.



Yes. We all know that. What's the point here ? I didn't see any LFL quote about "NJO Luke vs Ragnos" or a source stating that Luke would be able to defeat him. What I have is Luke post DE and the JA trilogy suggesting that it will need the combined power of the entire Jedi to try to stop a living Ragnos.



That cases for "overwriting" Kevin's stuff you have presented so far are more likely "things Kevin hasn't mentioned which got mentioned later".



Dan's personal opinion is in an official source that represents the personal opinion of a single in universe character from who's point of view said source is written.

And Thrawn is the best tactician ? Obviously he managed to become Grand Admiral (which is the second highest military title after a Grand Moff the Imperials have) despite the fact that he served an organisation that suppressed non-humans. This is the equivalent of a Jew becoming General in the German military under Hitler.
Considering that Thrawn has beaten New Republic Fleets which were commanded by Ackbar I'm inclined to say he is the better tactician.



Again. There is no official decission on who is the most powerful Sith Lord, as well as there is no comment how a fight between NJO Luke and Ragnos would end. So why you keep throwing LFL in ? It's useless.

He didn't participate in Golden Age, and Veitch helping there should be no different as there aren't concrete statements made.

Oh, and the Jedi Academy? Luke was talking about stopping Ragnos's ressurection. And that's Luke...twenty years before NJO.

Oh, Kevin deciding there weren't darths back in the Ancient Empire, that the Sith empire was...100,000 years old, the technology, and the Sith Empire being extinct from Sadow's time to Exar and from Exar's time to the Thousand year darkness..For the first there, Odan shows Nomi the Sith holocron and lists the age as 100,000 years...and other sources have expanded the Sith War heavily.

Oh, I agree on Thrawn, but Zahn rides him so much, it's irritating as hell. I was using him as an example.

Why I'm mentioning LFL: I'm just tired of people deciding the author holds ultimate authority on things.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Something about a guy who can damage star destroyers with the force, actively communicate with crystals, master numerous Jedi techniques, become an avatar of the force at one point, channeling the full power of the light like Jacen and Ganner have done, communicated with spirits that have passed on through the Force, broke the dark side presences on several areas, was described as a maelstrom of force energy, but calm and focused, fought through an army, killed the elite Vong warriors and then squared off with Overlord Shimrra, the greatest warrior the Vong had and killed him...he's also produced extremely powerful and real illusions, including fleets, almost instinctively taught himself dueling...

Damage star destroyers: Anyone with basic telekinesis can do the same. How about some context?

Actively communicate with crystals: Oh boy! Because this makes him a juggernaut of power!

Master numerous jedi techniques: So did Coleman Trebor.

Become an avatar of the Force: Defeated by your own words, since apparently Ganner and Jacen did it too. It ceases to be impressive once uniqueness is removed.

Described as a maelstrom: By whom? And this quantifies his power how in comparison to others?

Killed Vong/Shimrra: Whoopee. You only see them as impressive because they can/have beat down Luke's Jedi. How does this mean that they'd beat the Jedi or Sith of the Old Republic, who underwent better training and had a far superior knowledge base?

Produced illusion: Actually, from what I heard he was only able to make a ship, and the strain from doing so caused him to look like Palpatine temporarily.

This is in contrast to Naga Sadow, who was able to make multiple fleets and armies of tangible illusions that could kill their enemies.

Hell, it's in contrast to Aleema who was able to perform everything Sadow did, albeit on a smaller scale.

"Instinctively taught himself dueling": And this makes him better than people who had real training how? And where are you getting this? Pulled it out of your ass?

Lightsnake is pwned.

Yep... yep sure damaging a gigantic starship is the easiest thing ever... I bet Vader could do it since all it takes is basic telekinesis!


Yea... this is a pretty lame point.


Yea I agree with you here. Not very impressive.


Hmm... nothing to say here.


Yea this a weak point.


Yea... yea never mind the Vong wore lightsaber resistant armor, and were immune to the Force. Not to mention the fact that they were physically enhanced. Like the PT Jedi would do any better... or TOTJ.


I would like to point out that Luke was able to hide an entire planet for a incredibly long period of time. And also make himself completely hidden in both the force and visually.


No argument here.


Your comparing him to Aleema? WTF?


Yea and killing a thousand or so Vong warriors and the Supreme Overlord is easy shit...

Yeah, actually. It'd require too much concentration to use practically but it can be done - just start ripping the hull apart.

Remember, I asked for context.



Other force users wielded lightsabers (resistant to other lightsabers, remember?) and were immune to the Force insofar as they can counter it with their own Force powers. Other Force users (like, say, Dooku) were also "physically enhanced" with the Force - or did I imagine Dooku casually blocking two overhead swings from Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker (droid arm, remember?) with just one arm?

And why wouldn't the Old Jedi Order do better? They had better training from a wider selection of masters and they had an infinitely better knowledge base.



And from what I've heard, he hid the planet via a Force technique that didn't require him to constantly maintain the illusion, so that lessens the feat.

That and you seem to forget Kreia was able to make herself hidden in the same manner quite well, unless of course you've forgotten how the Disciple finally figures out that she's on the ship.



Yeah, actually. Aleema's illusions are more impressive than Luke's.



Maybe not for Luke's Jedi, but I believe the OJO would handle them far better.

The Vong are not entirely immune to the Force. They have to exist to some extent, because Anakin sensed them before he died, Tahiri in Edge of Victory almost kills a shaper by using the force to make a vacuum around the shaper's head, Kyp Durron uses Force Strike on the Vong in an earlier book, and it is exactly described as something which affects them only a little (but it still affected them slightly).

Yea and never mind JA Luke pushed three Star Destroyers back into hyperspace from several thousands kilometres of range.

How much energy do you need to accelerate 3 ships with more than 1,500 feet length carrying more than 5,000 men (each) above lightspeed?





Arguing that just because a lightsaber blocks other lightsabers is like arguing that a sword is more protective than plate mail. Also yes I am aware the Jedi were enhanced physically, but my comment was more aimed towards your constant attempt to downplay the Vong. As much as I hate the Vong they are no pushovers like you seem to think they are. But I will concede the point the OJO had a better knowledge base.




And this lessens the feat... how? Just because it was a one shot? Yep hiding an entire planet is easy as hell. Welcome the world of IKC.



Yea... lets see who else knew Kreia was on the ship... the Exile, Atton, Brianna (assuming the Exile was male), hell just about everyone on the ship. You know? The entire crew knew she was one the ship. It's like you being in my room without trying to hide yourself. I'd undoubtedly know you were there. Kreia was not trying to remain invisible on the ship...



The urge to say something sarcastic here is pretty strong. However, shamefully I don't know any of those fancy latin words you use all the time. However, suffice to say arguing that Aleema is anywhere near Luke is bullshit.





You do realize that Luke accomplished this all but single handedly do you? With help form who... Jania and Jacen? And the actually number was closer to two thousand Vong warriors.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He didn't participate in Golden Age, and Veitch helping there should be no different as there aren't concrete statements made.


He did participate in TOTJ and DLotS meaning he helped creating Kun. Or to make it clearer. The TOTJ Jedi are Veitch's creations as it seems and Anderson is just responsible for Exar Kun. Simply read this:

http://www.darkhorse.com/news/interviews.php?id=667

Especially that part here:
"4,000 years in the past. I asked him if I could write a guest issue telling the origin of Exar Kun, but Tom was thinking much bigger. He said, "Let's do this grand epic where we pit your guy against my characters in a big war that wrecks half the galaxy." That certainly sounded more fun than a guest issue. So I worked with him on Dark Lords of the Sith. We plotted the whole 12 issues together, even though I wrote the last six of them solo."

And Kun did win all direct confrontations with the most powerful people of the TOTJ era order while Sidious lost to the 2nd in command of the PT era order and was only able to defeat the PT era Grandmaster because of taking advantage of the enviroment (aka taking the higher ground). And Kun - as far as we know - is not as powerful as Ragnos himself.



No. You're pulling that out of your ass. It doesn't make sense that Luke was referring to Ragnos resurrection here because Ragnos wasn't resurrected meaning he had no reason to talk about stopping Ragnos since he wasn't alive.



Lmao. You know: The only "Darth" Kevin knew about was Vader and at this time the "Darth" was part of Vaders name and not a title for the Dark Lord of the Sith. In ANH Kenobi even calls Vader "Darth" as if this is his forename. And were is the contradiction here ? There is no source listing somebody with a "Darth" for the ancient Sith Empire - Revan and Malak used that title and both of them lived past Kun.



Again:
- The Sith as a species were 100,000 years old. Contradiction ?
- The Sith Empire was extinct from Sadow's time to Exar - contradiction ?
- Where is it said that the "Sith" were gone from Exar to the pre-Ruusan Sith ?
- Odan says that the holocron contains stories which are 100,000 years old. That doesn't mean the holocron is 100,000 years old.



Read the interview with Anderson above. The parameters for the possibly powers of the Sith Lords were defined by Lucas himself and Lucas himself gave Anderson and Veitch "some incredible latitude on what we can do" because the story happens 5,000 - 4,000 years before the films. And Lucas overwrites everything else in terms of "canon".

Actually, those were his students after JA when Daala returned with the Knight Hammer (I believe it was called) Super Star Destroyer. They pooled their powers and used the focusing attributes of the temples to perform the feat.



If the Jedi needed any more protection, Veneficus, why didn't they wear it? Could it be that the lightsaber alone was sufficient defense?

You'd need to respond to my "attempts to downplay the Vong" with an actual argument if you wish to rebut them.



It lessens it inasmuch as he didn't have to spend time, concentration, and energy in maintaining the illusion. Welcome to the world of simple logic.



No, not really. You should play through with a female character and get the Disciple again. His cutscenes involving Kreia toying with him are quite priceless and can easily lead one to believe that very few people on the ship knew she was there, among them Atton and probably Bao-Dur.

Point is, Luke's little skill is far from unique, nor does it make him particularly powerful.



You should embrace that urge. Here, I'll show you how:

I'm stunned by your ability to form a cogent counterargument to my points. Wow, my assertion that Aleema's illusions are more impressive than Luke's (backed up by the evidence) has been shot to shit by your ability to say "bullshit!"

There you go, sarcasm. Embrace it.



I don't recall spouting off a number, and you don't seem to understand my point: Maybe the Vong were difficult for Luke's Jedi to handle, but I believe the OJO would have performed far better.

Sometimes I have to wonder why I ever bother... this is pointless. You and I could argue all day and neither would convince the other. Now I am not saying Luke in any form could take Ragnos. I just believe that you downplay Luke too much. But, whatever I'm not going to get stressed over this.

Originally posted by IKC
Damage star destroyers: Anyone with basic telekinesis can do the same. How about some context?

Actively communicate with crystals: Oh boy! Because this makes him a juggernaut of power!

Master numerous jedi techniques: So did Coleman Trebor.

Become an avatar of the Force: Defeated by your own words, since apparently Ganner and Jacen did it too. It ceases to be impressive once uniqueness is removed.

Described as a maelstrom: By whom? And this quantifies his power how in comparison to others?

Killed Vong/Shimrra: Whoopee. You only see them as impressive because they can/have beat down Luke's Jedi. How does this mean that they'd beat the Jedi or Sith of the Old Republic, who underwent better training and had a far superior knowledge base?

Produced illusion: Actually, from what I heard he was only able to make a ship, and the strain from doing so caused him to look like Palpatine temporarily.

This is in contrast to Naga Sadow, who was able to make multiple fleets and armies of tangible illusions that could kill their enemies.

Hell, it's in contrast to Aleema who was able to perform everything Sadow did, albeit on a smaller scale.

"Instinctively taught himself dueling": And this makes him better than people who had real training how? And where are you getting this? Pulled it out of your ass?

1. Gee, when has any other Jedi manage to toss around star destroyers? 1,600 meters long ISDs? More than Naga Sadow could do. Oh, and name me another Jedi who could communicate with crystals? The farther the mind is removed from sentience, the stronger one needs to be in the force to reach it.

2. Gee, an army of Vong, breeds of Vong specially designed to kill Jedi and then their greatest warrior! Nothing impressive there! Nothing like say, mr. 'I appear dead in every story I'm in and never do any impressive'.

And the Ancient Sith's Coruscant invasion force was beaten back by...four Jedi. And the Sith were slaughtered by Massassi. Who are butchered in great numbers by the Jedi, a couple killed by Jori Daragon. And before you even try 'they were surprised': Dor Gal-Ram, form some kind of excuse for him when he had his back to the bulkhead screaming at that.

3. Coleman Trebor: Self acknowledge mediator. Luke mastered all of the deadliest combat techniques of the Jedi.

4. Wow, a technique done three times in special circumstances defeats the uniqueness! Doesn't change the fact that at that point, he was nigh omnipotent.

5. Jaina Solo describes Luke as a maelstorm of Force energy in TUF, so calm and focused he was unstoppable.

6. Luke and Palpatine, seperately created numerous fleets out of illusion, Palp did it when he retook the core worlds, Luke when he routed the alliance. Luke can also deflect the blasts from starships without breathing heavy. And manipulate solar flares without a ship, unlike say...Naga. Brakiss even said if Luke wanted to, he might be able to obliterate a star. On his own, after we saw Brakiss toy around with a star.

7. Power of the Jedi, Luke mastered dueling at a greater rate than most any other Jedi. Instinctively. And Truce at Bakura, he slaughters numerous Ssi-Ruuk and only four years later, bests one of the deadliest black ops team in the galaxy with a single lightsaber throw.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He did participate in TOTJ and DLotS meaning he helped creating Kun. Or to make it clearer. The TOTJ Jedi are Veitch's creations as it seems and Anderson is just responsible for Exar Kun. Simply read this:

http://www.darkhorse.com/news/interviews.php?id=667

Especially that part here:
"4,000 years in the past. I asked him if I could write a guest issue telling the origin of Exar Kun, but Tom was thinking much bigger. He said, "Let's do this grand epic where we pit your guy against my characters in a big war that wrecks half the galaxy." That certainly sounded more fun than a guest issue. So I worked with him on Dark Lords of the Sith. We plotted the whole 12 issues together, even though I wrote the last six of them solo."

And Kun did win all direct confrontations with the most powerful people of the TOTJ era order while Sidious lost to the 2nd in command of the PT era order and was only able to defeat the PT era Grandmaster because of taking advantage of the enviroment (aka taking the higher ground). And Kun - as far as we know - is not as powerful as Ragnos himself.



No. You're pulling that out of your ass. It doesn't make sense that Luke was referring to Ragnos resurrection here because Ragnos wasn't resurrected meaning he had no reason to talk about stopping Ragnos since he wasn't alive.



Lmao. You know: The only "Darth" Kevin knew about was Vader and at this time the "Darth" was part of Vaders name and not a title for the Dark Lord of the Sith. In ANH Kenobi even calls Vader "Darth" as if this is his forename. And were is the contradiction here ? There is no source listing somebody with a "Darth" for the ancient Sith Empire - Revan and Malak used that title and both of them lived past Kun.



Again:
- The Sith as a species were 100,000 years old. Contradiction ?
- The Sith Empire was extinct from Sadow's time to Exar - contradiction ?
- Where is it said that the "Sith" were gone from Exar to the pre-Ruusan Sith ?
- Odan says that the holocron contains stories which are 100,000 years old. That doesn't mean the holocron is 100,000 years old.



Read the interview with Anderson above. The parameters for the possibly powers of the Sith Lords were defined by Lucas himself and Lucas himself gave Anderson and Veitch "some incredible latitude on what we can do" because the story happens 5,000 - 4,000 years before the films. And Lucas overwrites everything else in terms of "canon".

Yoda admits he loses to Sidious in every source. And Kun fights...two Jedi. Who fight him without any means to defeat him. That's great, an incredible accomplishment. Neither Jedi ever showing any martial skil or any brains whatsoever. According to everything in the eU:
Yoda was unable to win
Yoda realized he couldn't win
in the ROTS novelization? Yoda realizes he can't beat Sidious when he runs.

Gee, Luke is only talking about sending the Jedi after Ragnos's forces and preventing his ressurection in that entire speech. he says nothing about fighting a living, breathing ragnos. The entire point of the attack is to stop Ragnos from returning and to defeat his cult.

"Darth Andeddu", ring any bells? entombed on Korriban, with a large tomb, traps and ancient sith gear.

Sith species one hundred thousand years old? Did they have holocrons in that time? Isn't the holocron a Jedi invention? And regardless: Anderson later put the emprie as before 7,000 BBY. And not to mention the 'first schism'.
Freedon Nadd joined the Ancient Sith empire and left in a huff because someone else was voted Dark Lord ahead of him. This from Dark Lords of the Sith.
Sith said to be extinct for quite some time in the JA trilogy. Hell, they were apparently still around before Revan and Malak even took power now.

Gee Lightsnake you never tire from you arguments do you? Is this an attempt to divert everyone to your beliefs? If so, i guess you'll fail.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda admits he loses to Sidious in every source.


I didn't hear him say "Damn. I lost to Sidious because he was too powerful for me" in the film. In the novel Stover explains it with a "change of philosophy" or "the more light you use against the Sith, the deeper their shadow grows" (or something like that). Not to mention that this is an irrelevant missdirection. Who was talking about Yoda vs Sidious here ?



I see. Math isn't your favourite subject, right ? We see Kun fighting:
- Crado
- Sylvar
- Vodo
- Odan
- Odd
- Ulic

That are 6 Jedi, as far as I see.



Lmao. Vodo walks into the Senate Chamber and says that he will kill Ulic but "it's Exar Kun who has to be stopped". But he didn't have the intention to defeat him ? Sylvar wanted to defeat him in anger - and fails. Odan wants to stop him and get's force choked to death. Odd Bnar has to use the power of the planet Ossus to stop Kun from getting the lightsabers he's protecting - and that was enough to survive a supernova destroying the planets surface.



Huh ? You are talking about the TOTJ people ? I suggest you read the comics.



In case you didn't realize it: Needing the combined power of all Jedi to stop a bunch of Dark Jedi led by an incompetent force user is laughable considering that Jaden alone was enough to defeat most of the Cult and Tavionn.



You may simply have a look at the comic and realize that he's a human thus not belonging to the Ancient Sith Empire.



Dude. I have a history book mentioning stuff that happened 2,000 or even 5,000 years in the past. Does that mean the book is 5,000 years old ? No.
And Anderson did nothing of that sort. The NEC did it and you know that LFL / Wallace are responsible for this. Not to mention that it's still written from the in universe perspective of a historian writing down the stuff several millenia after it happened.



The Sith (as a species) were extinct after the Great Hyperspace War. It's possible that some human Dark Jedi have taken over Korriban and called themselve Sith but obviously not with acknowledgement of the "real" Sith since they handed the Dark Lord title to Exar.



See above. The Tetan's destroyed them after the Great Hyperspace War.

Originally posted by IKC
If the Jedi needed any more protection, Veneficus, why didn't they wear it? Could it be that the lightsaber alone was sufficient defense?

Ah, great. So the TOTJ Jedi do suck know because of using battle armor which means that for them a lightsaber alone wasn't sufficient defense ? Nice to know that.



How often do people have to make "pro-Vong" arguments ?

http://starwars.wikia.com/images/5/59/Nom_anor1.jpg

Here. Nom Anor. Member of the intendant class. This is what the Vong call a "politician".

The normal Vong was about twice as strong as a trained human warrior. The warriors are stronger, the Slayers stronger then the warriors and on top of that you have the Supreme Overlord Shimmra, a killing machine with 2.4 meters height. Now just give them all kinds of bio-engineered implants and equip them with stuff like:

Amphistaffs:
2-3 metre long serpents, lightsaber resistant, can be used as staff, spear and whip. Able to spray deatly toxin.

Thud bugs:
Living range combat weapons with homing abilities

Razor bugs:
Flying and living knives designed to pierce armor.

Bo'utus / Coomb spores:
The first one is inhaled in the lungs of a YV and when breathed out turns into insectlike creatures that are able to tear apart the target of the attack. The coomb spores are deadly since they break down the targets molicular level when inhaled.

voduun crab armor:
Lightsaber and blaster resistant.

And this is not even talking about Voxyns, designed to kill Jedi, that have venom / retroviruses on almost every part of their body and even their blood turns into a deadly neurotoxin combined with air.

Add the fact that all that the Vong aren't senseable through the force (which gives a Jedi / Sith enough trouble - same thing can be seen in Sadow Hunter) and are immune to direct force attacks so much that even force lightning used against them (by Jacen for example), powerful enough to affect the enviroment simply arched away from them. So I really wonder where you got the idea from that the Vong are somehow easy to defeat.
I don't like the idea behind the Vong but they are the most deadly group of non force users I have seen in the series so far.



Indeed very simple logic. Because you are missing the fact that Luke basically created a "loop" in the "flow" of the force to create the effect he wanted. So he basically didn't "use" the force but instead "influenced" it.



This is great - especially because Kreia is visible the entire time and you have the entire crew standing around in front of your ship in one of the cutscenes on Nar Shadda with Kreia talking to the rest of the crew but maybe nobody did notice her.



Of course. The illusions were so powerful that Nomi Sunrider could destroy them with "a few weeks of training on Ossus". And Luke just:

- did hide away a planet, a massive starship and Vader's fortress for an infinite amount of time (Black Fleet trilogy)
- changed his appearance and kept that illusion up for more than a week while having his force power slowly drained (were Hethrir and friends couldn't even switch on their lightsabers any longer while being on the same place for some hours) and he even fooled a trained PT force user with that stuff (happened in Chrystal Star).
- created a force doppelganger able to interact with Leia (she even touched him) and fooled his sister with it (Dark Empire)

How are Aleema's illusions more impressive ? All she did is killing some non-force users, hiding Ulic's attack fleet (raid of that space station with the republic ships) and create some space grazers.



Why would the OJO have performed better ? We're talking about lifeforms that can't be affected by the force directly or sensed through the force, have lightsaber resistant weapons and armor and have a pretty high physical strength. How would the OJO perform better without having any informations about the Vong which the NJO received through Vergere / Jacen ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
I didn't hear him say "Damn. I lost to Sidious because he was too powerful for me" in the film. In the novel Stover explains it with a "change of philosophy" or "the more light you use against the Sith, the deeper their shadow grows" (or something like that). Not to mention that this is an irrelevant missdirection. Who was talking about Yoda vs Sidious here ?



I see. Math isn't your favourite subject, right ? We see Kun fighting:
- Crado
- Sylvar
- Vodo
- Odan
- Odd
- Ulic

That are 6 Jedi, as far as I see.



Lmao. Vodo walks into the Senate Chamber and says that he will kill Ulic but "it's Exar Kun who has to be stopped". But he didn't have the intention to defeat him ? Sylvar wanted to defeat him in anger - and fails. Odan wants to stop him and get's force choked to death. Odd Bnar has to use the power of the planet Ossus to stop Kun from getting the lightsabers he's protecting - and that was enough to survive a supernova destroying the planets surface.



Huh ? You are talking about the TOTJ people ? I suggest you read the comics.



In case you didn't realize it: Needing the combined power of all Jedi to stop a bunch of Dark Jedi led by an incompetent force user is laughable considering that Jaden alone was enough to defeat most of the Cult and Tavionn.



You may simply have a look at the comic and realize that he's a human thus not belonging to the Ancient Sith Empire.



Dude. I have a history book mentioning stuff that happened 2,000 or even 5,000 years in the past. Does that mean the book is 5,000 years old ? No.
And Anderson did nothing of that sort. The NEC did it and you know that LFL / Wallace are responsible for this. Not to mention that it's still written from the in universe perspective of a historian writing down the stuff several millenia after it happened.



The Sith (as a species) were extinct after the Great Hyperspace War. It's possible that some human Dark Jedi have taken over Korriban and called themselve Sith but obviously not with acknowledgement of the "real" Sith since they handed the Dark Lord title to Exar.



See above. The Tetan's destroyed them after the Great Hyperspace War.

That's great. the novel's EU and C-canon. Yoda leaves, realizes he's incapable of killing Sidious.

Apologies, I thought we were only using Kun as a Sith lord. Defeating Crado and Sylvar aren't what I'd call incredible feats, he ties with Ulic and kills ODan and Vodo...Odan who'd never shown himself capable of any kind of power and Vodo as a complete incompetent. Must be KJA's bad writing.

Vodo continuously tells Exar to renounce the darkside and fights him with a stick, and doesn't even try to use the force on him. Brilliant, Vodo...and Bnar's survival was something natural to Neti in their advanced stages of life. Notice Kun didn't try to attack Ood when Ood's metamorphisis was complete...and one of Palpatine's far flunkies was able to match power with Ood drawing up energy from Ossus's core.

Luke's entire speech is talking about stopping Ragnos from being ressurected. This is after the Academy was weakened by the subsequent assaults of Daala, Desann, Hethrir, The Jensaari...Hell, Luke directly says they need to stop ragnos from coming back, is he changing his tune suddenly? And once more, what does Luke know on the subject of all things Ragnos?

Do your history books take place in a fictional world?

Why does Vodo's holocron then mention Nadd left the Sith Empire because he wasn't chosen Dark Lord? KJA's bad writing? Yep.

And once again: Vodo and the TOTJ SBK say how Nadd left because another-young by 'Sith standards- was voted Dark Lord in his place.

Yes, Odan, who became proficient in blocking the Ancient Sith from the Force, is somehow an incompetant.

Need I remind you that appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy? By what passes for your "logic," the entire Galactic Empire and the Vong are "incompetants" for failing to kill two men (Han, Luke), a woman (Leia), and two droids.



Could it be that he fights him with a stick because he's confident in his abilities? Oh no, Lightsnake Logic (tm) dictates that he must be an arrogant fool with his head up his ass and no power to speak of... despite the fact that he was able to manifest himself four thousand years later (whereas our precious Yoda couldn't hack a decade) to help defeat Kun.



Notice context. Ood was sitting on the lightsabers that Exar desired to possess. Had Exar blown him up, he'd have ruined what he came for.

Originally posted by IKC
Yes, Odan, who became proficient in blocking the Ancient Sith from the Force, is somehow an incompetant.

Need I remind you that appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy? By what passes for your "logic," the entire Galactic Empire and the Vong are "incompetants" for failing to kill two men (Han, Luke), a woman (Leia), and two droids.



Could it be that he fights him with a stick because he's confident in his abilities? Oh no, Lightsnake Logic (tm) dictates that he must be an arrogant fool with his head up his ass and no power to speak of... despite the fact that he was able to manifest himself four thousand years later (whereas our precious Yoda couldn't hack a decade) to help defeat Kun.



Notice context. Ood was sitting on the lightsabers that Exar desired to possess. Had Exar blown him up, he'd have ruined what he came for.

Proof those Sith were powerful. We've only ever see Odan screw up. And you're trying to change the subject. The Vong never focused on Han, Luke, Leia etc, Tsavong focused on Jacen and got him. The Empire

And by IKC logic: He fights with a stick cause he's so cool! Never mind he can't actively kill or best a dark lord of the stick with a piece of wood! If Vodo was using a saber, he might still be alive-they don't tend to, y'know, break. And if you have a chance to jab a man in the chest, a saber works better because it can actually kill people.

Ok, Exar had a possibly chance of destroying what he wanted...or a hundred percent chance of losing it by leaving it for behind. Or simply, y'know, activate his saber and chop some wood, have Kalgrath and the other massassi pull the stump out when Ood was dead...

And gee, could Vodo appearing be because he was directly summoned by the Jedi? Yep. Trying to argue with the book now?

Prove the Ancient Sith were powerful? I think that point has already been well established. And absence of proof is not proof of absence.

No, an analogy is not changing the subject, especially when it points out the utter vacancy of logic in your argument.



Yeah. Because I used the word "cool" anywhere in my argument, rather than saying that Vodo was confident enough in his abilities to face Exar Kun alone armed with a stick.

How could I ever get this idea? Oh, my, it couldn't be the two-page monologue Vodo has to this effect a few pages before the battle, could it?

Were Vodo fighting with a saber, he'd have likely been killed with his own blade as Kun forced it into him, I surmise.



That or he wasn't interested in the hassle of having to blast Ood and having lightsabers explode in his face. Note how he leaves almost immediately afterwards?

And stop giving names to the unnamed Massassi. Your unsupported assumptions are legion enough.



Seeing as I have the book and it doesn't read that he was summoned, no. Making shit up again?

Originally posted by IKC
Prove the Ancient Sith were powerful? I think that point has already been well established. And absence of proof is not proof of absence.

No, an analogy is not changing the subject, especially when it points out the utter vacancy of logic in your argument.



Yeah. Because I used the word "cool" anywhere in my argument, rather than saying that Vodo was confident enough in his abilities to face Exar Kun alone armed with a stick.

How could I ever get this idea? Oh, my, it couldn't be the two-page monologue Vodo has to this effect a few pages before the battle, could it?

Were Vodo fighting with a saber, he'd have likely been killed with his own blade as Kun forced it into him, I surmise.



That or he wasn't interested in the hassle of having to blast Ood and having lightsabers explode in his face. Note how he leaves almost immediately afterwards?

And stop giving names to the unnamed Massassi. Your unsupported assumptions are legion enough.



Seeing as I have the book and it doesn't read that he was summoned, no. Making shit up again?

Proof please. Dor Gal-ram and Horak Muul were powerful? Proof the ancient Sith Odan blocked were powerful.

An incorrect analogy is. Is real life relevant to a fictional setting whose writers are still alive?

Proof Vodo was confident enough in his abilities. He just tried a 'I must do this alone.' Which is selfish, whiny and idiotic. Sylvar has as much a stake in fighting Kun has Vodo does, as do Nomi and Cay. Once more: He uses a stick. Yeah, confidence? Confidence isn't always a good thing.

Classic Star Wars comics, Chronology. TOTJ sourcebook: The Massassi's name is Kalgrath, who becomes the Night Beast. Go on swcomics.com, find Classic Star Wars.

So...Kun decided to NOT take a chance to lose the sabers when he could have stepped back a few paces and fired and decided to lose everything?

Chronology and I, Jedi btw for Kun;s vanquish...brilliant Sith Lord, walking into a trap, getting outwitted by Padawans.

You talk about downplaying Luke's abilities, hell you downplay Odan's to death. Memit Nadill even says that thanks to Odan-Urr "we're saved", notice he was talking to Odan, saying his thanks for saving them otherwise they would've been doomed. But, of course, Odan isn't a very good fighter, or at the least, is an incompetant just like everyone in TOTJ is according to you. However, the comic trumps your opinion on Odan-Urr not being a proficient fighter.

And, it was obvious Exar was in a hurry when dealing with Ood, given he states things such as "We have little time to take it all for ourselves!" and "We don't have time to waste.".

Tell THAT to the soldiers who just died because ODan's battle meditation made the Kirrek seperatists fight harder...tell that to the Daragons. And battle meditation isn't what one calls fighting...and he just stood around uselessly at the battle for Kirrek when one soldiers yelled at him to help them with the invading Sith

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tell THAT to the soldiers who just died because ODan's battle meditation made the Kirrek seperatists fight harder...tell that to the Daragons. And battle meditation isn't what one calls fighting...and he just stood around uselessly at the battle for Kirrek when one soldiers yelled at him to help them with the invading Sith

I'll tell that to the soldiers that were saved by Odan's meditation. Hell, everyone makes mistakes. Also, he saved the Daragons once too, so really why do you keep saying he's incompetant when it's shown he's clearly not. And, you said:



Power would include power in the Force, and Odan obviously was quite capable in the Force, using battle meditation and being proficient in blocking people from the Force as mentioned.

When your battle meditation backfires, makes the enemy fight harder...and if the Daragons weren;t orphaned, a LOT of trouble'd never have happened...and incompetence also applies to standing around uselessly in a big battle.

Oh no, the Ancient Sith that Odan blocked couldn't have been powerful. They just came from a culture whose relics created powerhouses of the Dark Side for eons to come. Lightsnake dictates that they weren't powerful because Odan was able to block them, and Odan must be incompetant because it makes Luke "Slugger" Skywalker look good, nevermind that Odan's forgotten more about the Force than Luke will ever know...



Pardon? Who here was using real life analogies? Reading comprehension, much?

Oh, and it'd still be relevant even if I did.



Let's see, proof is such: Two page monologue to the effect, Vodo's dialogue (It is Exar Kun who must be stopped... Not Ulic) before the fight, etc.

Yeah. I'd say that he was damned confident enough to confront Exar Kun with the intent to stop him armed with his trusty stick. Vodo can not be faulted for underestimating Kun's growth in power and skill.



Actual primary source: The Massassi is unnamed. And there's more than one mutated Massassi, among them Zythmnr. You have enough unsupported assumptions, you don't need to keep adding them.



Given the destructive power of his beams, what would the point be? They would have been lost anyway.

I like how you don't consider the fact that perhaps Kun wanted Ood to suffer through the supernovae.




No, Champions of the Force for Kun's defeat.

And do I have to remind you again that he was a weakened, 4000 year old, half-insane spirit?

"Brilliant Sith, getting benchpressed into a reactor core by a one-handed cripple in a breathing suit."

Appeal to ridicule works both ways. Problem is, your guy was close to his prime.

PRoof they were powerful. I want direct quotes and the fight itself. I recall Dor Gal-ram getting slaughtered by a group of Massassi when he was FACING them and screaming...Proof please.

Is real life a fictional setting written by people who are still alive? No? Ok then.

Actually, Vodo can, because he hd a perfect chance and missed it. So, yep, that's Vodo's screw up.

Classic Star Wars comic series aren't a primary source? The original EC and TOTJ sourcebook written by KJA aren't primary? And for the record, their story info counts as much as any of TOTJ.

Kun wanted Ood to suffer more than he wanted the sabers and whatever else Ood had? Man, that's both idiotic and petty

I, Jedi and EC are perfectly acceptable sources, need I post what proves it? want to ask Dan? I, Jedi features Kun. And weakened? Proof? He was tied to the temple, with the dark side energy there and the ritual was designed to unleash him as a mighty spirit, free to walk the cosmos for eternity...so he's incompetent and didn't take into account what being a spirit would entail? And once more: He was smart enough to organize all else of what he did, he was tricked by Padawans, period.

And Palpatine killed...by the Chosen One? And that wasn't his final defeat either in the EU which is what this debate entails? Wow! Close to his prime? He's over eighty and his very power, absorbed from numerous locations across the galaxy and the dark side itself rots his body.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
PRoof they were powerful. I want direct quotes and the fight itself. I recall Dor Gal-ram getting slaughtered by a group of Massassi when he was FACING them and screaming...Proof please.


The pinacle of idiocity so far. Proof that ancient Sith were powerful ?
Oh well...can it be that the rulers of an Empire (the Sith Lords) which does work with the motto "The strongest shall rule" are indeed powerful. Ah no. This can't be because one of them was killed in a surprise attack by a group of his inferior subordinates.
By this logic Palpatine isn't powerful either.



Lmao. Downplaying characters much ? Ok...
Luke in ESB had a perfect chance to defeat Vader and missed it.
Sidious in ROTJ had a perfect chance to kill Luke and missed it.
Vader in ANH had a perfect chance to kill Luke and missed it.
etc.
Man...every character in the SW series makes mistakes. Damn. What a bunch of non-threatening dumbasses.



Wake up. Ood apparently had powered himself up enough (by using the power of Ossus itself) to survive a direct hit by a supernova. What exactly should Kun have done ? I'm pretty sure that a supernova > Kun's amulet and Kun's lightsaber. Not to forget that he had no time left to waste it with trying to cut Ood down.



How often do I have to tell you that the omnicient narrator in source X is superior to the in universe character from which perspective source Y is written ? Does Corran Horn somehow pocess more knowledge than an omnicient narrator ?



Lmao. There was a ritual to unleash him as a spirit, yes, but instead he was bount to the temple. So obviously the ritual went wrong. And of course he isn't half mad despite the fact that serveral people (including himself) said so - remember: He just spent 4,000 years on Yavin 4 without somebody to speak to. I guess this can make you pretty insane, yes.
And he was tricked by Padawans ? Right. So because they casually showed up when he was about to pwn Luke using Streen's abilities they did trick him ? Because they had the luck to have Streen with special abilities which prevented them from getting force choked to death by Kun's spirit all at once they tricked him ? Allright...



He still had his ass handed to a mechanical Sith Lord that only one arm left at this time. Chosen One or not. And wow...then he got his ass handed to Luke and Leia and I don't see one of them being the chosen one. And omg...then he has his ass handed to Han. Another Chosen one ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
The pinacle of idiocity so far. Proof that ancient Sith were powerful ?
Oh well...can it be that the rulers of an Empire (the Sith Lords) which does work with the motto "The strongest shall rule" are indeed powerful. Ah no. This can't be because one of them was killed in a surprise attack by a group of his inferior subordinates.
By this logic Palpatine isn't powerful either.



Lmao. Downplaying characters much ? Ok...
Luke in ESB had a perfect chance to defeat Vader and missed it.
Sidious in ROTJ had a perfect chance to kill Luke and missed it.
Vader in ANH had a perfect chance to kill Luke and missed it.
etc.
Man...every character in the SW series makes mistakes. Damn. What a bunch of non-threatening dumbasses.



Wake up. Ood apparently had powered himself up enough (by using the power of Ossus itself) to survive a direct hit by a supernova. What exactly should Kun have done ? I'm pretty sure that a supernova > Kun's amulet and Kun's lightsaber. Not to forget that he had no time left to waste it with trying to cut Ood down.



How often do I have to tell you that the omnicient narrator in source X is superior to the in universe character from which perspective source Y is written ? Does Corran Horn somehow pocess more knowledge than an omnicient narrator ?



Lmao. There was a ritual to unleash him as a spirit, yes, but instead he was bount to the temple. So obviously the ritual went wrong. And of course he isn't half mad despite the fact that serveral people (including himself) said so - remember: He just spent 4,000 years on Yavin 4 without somebody to speak to. I guess this can make you pretty insane, yes.
And he was tricked by Padawans ? Right. So because they casually showed up when he was about to pwn Luke using Streen's abilities they did trick him ? Because they had the luck to have Streen with special abilities which prevented them to get force choked to death by Kun's spirit all at once they tricked him ? Allright...



He still had his ass handed to a mechanical Sith Lord that only one arm left at this time. Chosen One or not. And wow...then he got his ass handed to Luke and Leia and I don't see one of them being the chosen one. And omg...then he has his ass handed to Han. Another Chosen one ?

Proof the Ancient Sith Odan used that technique on were more powerful because apparently it works on them and not Kun. And surprise attack? The surprise wore off a while back with Dol, we see him FACING THEM, yelling about how they're his slaves as they advance...and proof the Sith Odan fought were lords?

Msot characters tend to at least go into battle with the means to beat an enemy...y'know, as opposed to sticks and not utilizing your allies?

Oh, how long was there before Ossus was hit? Enough for Ulic to fight, kill Cay, get blinded to the Force, everyone to evacuate...So, now Ood in his tree form was stronger than Kun to survive an assault from him?

Oh, so Palpatine and Luke are divinities? Said by omniscient narrarator...and the omniscient narrarator of TOTJ has forgotten the name of the planet Ooroo's praxeum was on...real omniscient.

In I, Jedi: "Kun is walking into a trap." After he laughs, "Streen, yes, MY Streen!" And vanishes, they reveal they set the trap for him.

Did Vader kill him permanently? No. Vader the Chosen One destined to defeat Palp? Yep. Did he care if Han to shoot him because he could get Anakin? Yes. He even gloated over it. Forgot where he tries to possess Anakin and Brand intercepts him?

And did Luke and Leia channel the entire Lightside to portect Palpatine from the Dark, leading to his defeat. Yep. Posted the passage before, it's in DE from the omniscient narrarator....

I stand with Lightsnake as most of you will have guessed. Luke's got way more going for him than an old fossil that never fought a battle we know of. Oh don't give me that whole absence of proof is not proof of absence crap. Otherwise just about every freaking character could be more powerful than Luke, even though they haven't done diddly doesn't mean they can't do it. There's no proof that says Aurra Sing couldn't shoot Force Lightning so powerful it fries Luke like popcorn chicken but no one rates her powerful.

Oh and Naga blew up a star. Wow. That's it. Luke manipulated a black hole and blowing up a star wouldn't really help Ragnos even if he could do it anyway unless he wants to kill them both. Kreia even says he manipulated his enemies against each other. Out of fear perhaps? Anyway Lightsnake even though I just did it, its really mostly a waste of time to try and argue against the 'god' Ragnos because these people can't change their minds and they want to think a guy barely mentioned in a few star wars materials is all powerful even though he's displayed no power whatsoever.

Holy shit! It's ER.

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
Holy shit! It's ER.

Yes, he's come out of the woodwork to spill more idiocy.



Do you know what a "premise" is?

No? Here's a dictionary. When Aurra rules over an empire where the entire philosophy is to gain and horde power, and who's remnant artifacts and knowledge make generations of people strong and is called canonically as godlike, you can make that comparison. Elsewise, you're talking out of your ass.



So then the Vong are godly because they created the black hole in the first place?

Is Aleema stronger than Luke because her illusions were on the same, if not a bigger scale, than Luke's? Pointless feat wars.

Kreia also said that the ancient Sith made those of her era look like children. But you don't seem to think that quote applies to Revan. Why do we think Ragnos is powerful? Because the argument on the other side relies on little logical form and all about "well, he has no proof, ergo he sucks."

Illuvatar has little showings, does he suck? The One Above All has little showings, does he suck? The Presence doesn't have many showings, does he suck? This one-sided logic when you see it fit is really both annoying and absurdly stupid.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof the Ancient Sith Odan used that technique on were more powerful because apparently it works on them and not Kun.


And now ? What does this mean ? We don't know in which situation he used it - we don't even know if he used it against them on his own. And what do you want to tell me ? Do you want to judge Ragnos power by the power of numbers 10-20 in the "line of power" of the Ancient Sith Empire.

Apparently Ragnos was powerful enough to make Kressh and Sadow drop on their knees when he appeared as a spirit while Ludo suggests that he has come back to destroy Sadow. Wow. Kressh thinks that even Ragnos spirit is > Sadow (and thereby > him). And apparently Sadow and Kressh were superior to the other Sith Lords as only one of them would have been able to claim the Dark Lord title. So even if the rest of the Sith Lords should be inferior to Kun, that doesn't say something about Ragnos power.



Wow. He was yelling at them. Yes, he wasn't surprised by his "slaves" turning against him of course. Same way Sidious wasn't surprise when Vader tossed him into the DS reactor, right ?
And what the hell has Odan to do with this fight ?



Lmao. Vodo apparently thought he could take down Kun on his own because - omg - he defeated him before. Is Yoda now a complete idiot too because he did send Obi-Wan to stop Anakin instead of trying to defeat Sidious with Obi-Wan's help ?



Again: Ood survived a SUPERNOVA hitting the planet. What should Kun have done to kill somebody who could survive getting hit by a SUPERNOVA ? He wasn't "stronger" than Kun because otherwise he would just have killed Kun - but in his "tree form" he wasn't defeatable.



Oh, they are divinities because you can hand me a scan saying so. Because apparently I can't find said line in the comics.
And the omnicient narrator stating that "XYZ was forgotten" (so clearly refering to other people not knowing it) does mean jack shit.



Omnicient narrator aka Kevin J. Anderson > Corran Horn in universe aka Michael Stackpole.



What a great logic. So Vader was the Chosen One destined to defeat Palp but - he didn't defeat Palp ? Nice argument here.



Oh. He didn't care about all the Jedi arround who could maybe intercept his attempt to posess Anakin. What a great thinker he is.



Where does it say "the entire power of the lightside" that's your interpretation of the lines given. They just take power from everywhere but that's not the entire power from everywhere because that would be a force drain and kill off everything that is drained (see Nihilus and KotoR 2 for details).

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yes, he's come out of the woodwork to spill more idiocy.



Do you know what a "premise" is?

No? Here's a dictionary. When Aurra rules over an empire where the entire philosophy is to gain and horde power, and who's remnant artifacts and knowledge make generations of people strong and is called canonically as godlike, you can make that comparison. Elsewise, you're talking out of your ass.



So then the Vong are godly because they created the black hole in the first place?

Is Aleema stronger than Luke because her illusions were on the same, if not a bigger scale, than Luke's? Pointless feat wars.

Kreia also said that the ancient Sith made those of her era look like children. But you don't seem to think that quote applies to Revan. Why do we think Ragnos is powerful? Because the argument on the other side relies on little logical form and all about "well, he has no proof, ergo he sucks."

Illuvatar has little showings, does he suck? The One Above All has little showings, does he suck? The Presence doesn't have many showings, does he suck? This one-sided logic when you see it fit is really both annoying and absurdly stupid.

Except we know a few things about the Sith: They MOURN Simus's death, and there's little room for interpretation there...we know Ragnos's main tactic as a ruler was to pit the lords against themselves to solidify his own grip.

Plus, the Vong use TECHNOLOGY, not the Force, and Aleema's illusions are roughly equal with Luke, but could Aleema's illusions be so lifelike you could actually interact with them for days at a time? Illusions are hardly combat savvy and can be dispelled by a skilled force user.

Ragnos, unlike Eru, is NOT a god....that's taking apples and oranges completely. It says "Take the guy you know's a god against the guy who you know is powerful, but whom you're comparing to other, strong people." It doesn't work. Ragnos is never once stated to completely own every other Darksider/force user, past or present. what Sidious did was apparently created by him and his power and if the Ancients could do what he did without their technology-and KJA wrote that it was the electrical weapon on Sadow's ship- Then Ludo wouldn't have died how he did, and a fleet converging on Sadow's location would never be a problem. We saw one of the Sith Lords get killed by Massassi when he was facing them, yelling they were his slaves.

Ragnos has never shown mastery over what Sidious has been shown to. Not his fault, but we know Sidious's knowledge does exceed Marka's, if by default that he knows what the Jedi of old and the Sith of old did...Palpatine is described as a manifestation of the dark side, divinity, a titan, darkness incarnate, so powerful in the dark side, you can't beat him by fighting him, it needs all the Jedi of eons past to seal his soul forever. We've also had the knowledge Palpatine drained worlds of the force and life

Originally posted by Borbarad
And now ? What does this mean ? We don't know in which situation he used it - we don't even know if he used it against them on his own. And what do you want to tell me ? Do you want to judge Ragnos power by the power of numbers 10-20 in the "line of power" of the Ancient Sith Empire.
Exactly, we don't know. So it can't be used in a debate as it's conjecture. Considering most of the Sith Lords were dead by the time of Jedi genocide, too...


Apparently Ragnos was powerful enough to make Kressh and Sadow drop on their knees when he appeared as a spirit while Ludo suggests that he has come back to destroy Sadow. Wow. Kressh thinks that even Ragnos spirit is > Sadow (and thereby > him). And apparently Sadow and Kressh were superior to the other Sith Lords as only one of them would have been able to claim the Dark Lord title. So even if the rest of the Sith Lords should be inferior to Kun, that doesn't say something about Ragnos power.
I want proof it was power. And Ludo is psychotically sychophantic...look how he acts at the funeral! For someone so powerful, Ragnos's spirit couldn't touch Jaden, didn't respond to Sadow violating his last wishes or Sadow basically telling him to **** off. And the Sith admired and revered Ragnos, that's a fact. Why, if ragnos is able to, is he not putting Naga in his place for basically telling him to go away, ignoring what he says and screwing the empire over completely?



Wow. He was yelling at them. Yes, he wasn't surprised by his "slaves" turning against him of course. Same way Sidious wasn't surprise when Vader tossed him into the DS reactor, right ?
And what the hell has Odan to do with this fight ?
When your back's against the wall, you're bleeding and yelling feeble 'buts' and you're supposed to be a high Sith Lord. In Palp's defense, his weakness was spelled out before hand and he managed to fight back and mortally wound Vader...once more, EU-wise, he wasn't particularly concerned about losing a body or two. There's no excuse for Dol not reaction, when he knew they were turning on him and apparently had time to put his back to the wall. Trained, centuries old warriors should know hesitance, even by shock can be a matter of life and death.



Lmao. Vodo apparently thought he could take down Kun on his own because - omg - he defeated him before. Is Yoda now a complete idiot too because he did send Obi-Wan to stop Anakin instead of trying to defeat Sidious with Obi-Wan's help ?
Vodo freely ADMITTED Kun beat him...Kun defeated Vodo right after Vodo had round one. Vodo also doesn't use the force with the other Jedi there, all of whom deserve a shot at Kun as much as Vodo, or get a saber to have a chance of at least injuring Kun...and considering Yoda and Obi-wan were two men and would have to get through a darkside legion, plus the entire imperial army and then to Palpatine who'd only gotten more powerful. Luke was the last ditch effort, the empty gun they threw.



Again: Ood survived a SUPERNOVA hitting the planet. What should Kun have done to kill somebody who could survive getting hit by a SUPERNOVA ? He wasn't "stronger" than Kun because otherwise he would just have killed Kun - but in his "tree form" he wasn't defeatable.
He survived a supernova shockwave, and that's because his tree form's naturally resistant. Did Kun know all about Neti bioloogy?



Oh, they are divinities because you can hand me a scan saying so. Because apparently I can't find said line in the comics.
And the omnicient narrator stating that "XYZ was forgotten" (so clearly refering to other people not knowing it) does mean jack shit.

I can write it out, as I have before. And the omniscient narrarator, right after the opening credits, which show this is a retelling from five thousand years ago...hands opening a scroll with the title crawl written on them? Why has the omniscient narrarator forgotten the name?


Omnicient narrator aka Kevin J. Anderson > Corran Horn in universe aka Michael Stackpole.

The Jedi set the trap for him, so they know what they're talking about.


What a great logic. So Vader was the Chosen One destined to defeat Palp but - he didn't defeat Palp ? Nice argument here.
In the eU, which granddaddies the prequels. And considering Anakin, along with the rest of the Jedi bind Palp forever, it's workable.



Oh. He didn't care about all the Jedi arround who could maybe intercept his attempt to posess Anakin. What a great thinker he is.

You mean like Luke or Leia who were too far away to make a difference or the dying guy in the corner who found a hidden reserve of strength?


Where does it say "the entire power of the lightside" that's your interpretation of the lines given. They just take power from everywhere but that's not the entire power from everywhere because that would be a force drain and kill off everything that is drained (see Nihilus and KotoR 2 for details).

Right, because drawing full power from the entire light, IE: everything in the galaxy, is the same as a dark side technique that kills people by sucking them dry. And it says they use the entire power of the light to bind/protect/shield Palp from the darkness. It says they summoned light from all its sources.

Welcome, to a new episode of "Lightsnake VS Logic". Our superhero Lightsnake (equipped with a 1-Bit-memory capacity, enabling him to solve any mathematical addition including only one-digit numbers guaranteed wrong in only 2 hours) has entered the battlefield again.



Originally posted by Lightsnake
I want proof it was power. And Ludo is psychotically sychophantic...look how he acts at the funeral! For someone so powerful, Ragnos's spirit couldn't touch Jaden, didn't respond to Sadow violating his last wishes or Sadow basically telling him to **** off. And the Sith admired and revered Ragnos, that's a fact. Why, if ragnos is able to, is he not putting Naga in his place for basically telling him to go away, ignoring what he says and screwing the empire over completely?

And here scene one. Lightsnake tries to downplay everything the ancient Sith did by ignoring facts. Ludo is psychotically sychophantic. Yeah. That's why he dropped on his knees before Sadow too. Oh no. He didn't. And Sadow must be psychotically sychophantic too, because he dropped before Ragnos spirit too.

But hell...Ragnos must be a total blowhard, when saying that the Dark Side itself forces him to speak and the same dark side uses him as "voice" 5,000 years later. Damn it. Not to mention the fact that Ragnos only say that they should choose the battles to fight right. Where did Sadow ignore his advice ? He just has chosen the wrong battles.

And a 5,000 year old spirit is totally compareable to the same spirit right after the death of the original force user, especially if said spirit is weakened because of using the (already nearly killed) body of a weaker force user. And of course let just ignore that this is not even compareable to the living Ragnos.



Meanwhile our dear superhero Lightsnake calls himself "Mr.Idiot" and runs for mayor in the City of Ingorants.
What does Dol have to do with Ragnos power? He's number 5 of the Ancient Sith Empire at best (behind Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh and Simus). That's like saying "Because Thrawn trilogy Luke > Mara Jade, Thrawn trilogy Luke > Sidious". Great "argument" so far.




Yeah. Let's ignore Vodo's sarcastic comment that Kun used "two lightsabers against his poor staff" thereby breaking it and the fact that Kun didn't have two lightsabers in the Senate - hence Vodo could have thought that he would have been able to stop Kun, which he says directly before the fight starts.



Of course...because Kun was their student, right ? And you're talking about the same Jedi that should been kept busy by Ulic or did you think about Mrs "Kun pwned me with a handmovement" Sylvar ?



Ah. Great. Obi-Wan and Yoda together couldn get through "a darkside legion" and "the entire imperial army" but Yoda on his own was able to do so. Stop throwing bullshit in here, Lightsnake.



Of course. Why didn't I think about the natural resistance of wood against fire ?



WTF are you talking about ? Odan taking a scroll and reading it ? Or the omniscient narrator telling the story ?



Yes. Nice trap. This is why Luke was nearly killed. Of course. Anderson > Stackpole. And in the JA trilogy this scene looks completely different. Why didn't I draw the great conclusion that the action of nearly killing Luke caused Steen guilt when it was all just a trap. And of course - as one of the Jedi involved I would joyfully admit that me and my comrades were just lucky.



You mean: "Despite the fact that he got tooled by a force user in a life support suit before he ignores that fact and gets tooled by a force user in a life support suit again." To err is human. To repeat error is stupid.



Yes. They summoned light from all sources but they didn't use the entirety of said sources. I can take water from 3,000 different buckets without clearing one of them. Understood the concept now ? Yes ? Thanks.

Spirit on Korriban, place that was strongest in Dark Side in the galaxy? And watch how Nai decides to twist around what I said...you're trying to deny Ludo was a sycophant towards Ragnos now? And ragnos is the Dark Side's voice now? As opposed to its manifestation and champion? And I'm curious: why exactly is Ragnos allowing Naga to go ahead with a course of action that he knew would seriously harm the empire? Ragnos didn't expand the Sith empire for a reason

And Ragnos urged them to rally together...Sadow disregarded all of that because he felt they were growing stagnant. Once more, proof Ragnos could've touched them beyond Ludo's words when Ludo was a Ragnos groupie? Why was Ragnos not going after Naga's blatant disrespect?

Dol has to do with the Ancient Sith, you're avoiding the issue there, too. Stop trying to misdirect it and actually respond to what I wrote on Dol's end.

From the Sith War: "Exar Kun defeated me, his own teacher, in combat." Vodo's dumb enough to think perhaps Kun ISN'T packing two sabers, especially when we see Kun wielding them earlier on Yavin 4 in the comic?

Oh, a force push is an owning now? Someone tell Luke he lost the fight with Raynar Thul! And no, Kun wasn't their student...however he only had their brother/lover/beloved under thrall.

Gee, could Yoda have gone through undetected when Palpatine was relatively unguarded and there was no Dark side legion? ROTS novelization.

Wait...a SHOCKWAVE of an explosion= fire? And spout off all you want, Neti are incredibly resistant to other things in their final stages. Ood wasn't hurting too badly when Sedriss was frying him


The Omniscient narrarator doesn't know the name of the planet Odan's on. The scroll is from the narraration...and on the back of the TPB: "The history has become legend." And let's not forget when recounting the history of the Jedi vs. Sith in Marka's flashback we see....Sith fighting with swords when Marka's talking about how the Republic drove them off

Quote: "Exar Kun is walking into a trap" From I, Jedi. they gambled with Luke's life. They set a trap. They won. How exactly does Anderson>Stackpole now? Stackpole's book contradicts nothing except your assumptions. Approved by the editors at LFL? Yep.

Palp killed Vader. And let's ignore the circumstances are nothing alike! That Brand was being propelled by the force almost completely and Palpatine's spirit in his body 'ate him alive with darkness'...once more, took every Jedi of eons past to bind Palp's spirit? Yep. And when Palp was blindsided by the guy who, y'know, has robotic limbs that can punch through durasteel when he's both focused on torturing Luke AND using battle meditation on his fleet...and with Anakin? yes, expect the guy you'd pretty much killed to come out to intercept your victory with the full backing of the light...

Gee, they only drew energy from the light from...everywhere and channeled the entirety of the light .Keep ignoring it, but it'll still be there. From the rocks, the oceans, the stars, the light within themselves, from all the heroes of the alliance..they became luminous beings, same as Jacen at the end of TUF, who became one with the Force

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Spirit on Korriban, place that was strongest in Dark Side in the galaxy? And watch how Nai decides to twist around what I said...you're trying to deny Ludo was a sycophant towards Ragnos now? And ragnos is the Dark Side's voice now? As opposed to its manifestation and champion? And I'm curious: why exactly is Ragnos allowing Naga to go ahead with a course of action that he knew would seriously harm the empire? Ragnos didn't expand the Sith empire for a reason

Dude. You are missing the f*cking point here. Ragnos inferiors showed more power than Sidious has but you keep ignoring it and throw in your assine assertions why Ragnos was in fact not powerful.



Naga's blatant disrespect which he show by kneeling down when Ragnos' spirit appears ? Can you please tell me why Sadow, able to make entire armies of Massassi turn against their leaders, didn't even try to get rid of Ragnos when he could have done it ? Because of fear maybe - the same reason that made him fall on his knees before Ragnos spirit. Yes...his disrespect goes so far that he waits until Ragnos spirit is gone before doing anything against Ragnos command.



Dol has nothing to do with Ragnos power. Period.



He clearly enters the fight with the idea to stop Kun. Want to contradict him now ?



Yes...a force push after which we see the victim sitting around and crying when it wanted to kill the force pusher just moments before is pretty much "ownage". And Cay + Nomi had their brother / lover just standing in front of them. Maybe they had other things to do than "trying to own Kun" especially when Vodo commanded them to stay back ?



Can you explain to me again why Yoda + Obi-Wan shouldn't be able to do something Yoda could do on his own ? I'm waiting...



Ever seen a supernova ?
Oh my. He wasn't hurting too badly, after spending 4,000 years on a single location without food and after getting hit by the shockwave of a supernova ? I wonder how this has happened. Luke didn't appear to be in top shape during the events on board of the "Eye of Palpatine" in "Children of the Jedi" either. I wonder why...



The "trap" that nearly had all the students force choked to death by Kun's spirt and they were just lucky to have Streen with them who could counter Kun's force choke ? Without Streen or his special ability to manipulate air movements they all would have died there.
And it just took the combined power of all of Luke's students + Luke + Vodo to destroy Kun's spirit. May I remind you that Kun did the same thing on his own against Nadd when he was alive ?



He still made the same mistake by underestimating somebody else and considering that Luke and Leia were able to stop him he made even two mistakes twice. Why didn't he just tool anybody else present completly and ensure only Anakin being alive before trying to take over Anakin's body ? Stupidity ?



They didn't use the entirety of the light - they just channeled parts of it from the entire galaxy. Man. Read the text instead of handing me the same BS over and over again.

Give me a break! Illusions and use of an electrical weapon? Brakiss was able to manipulate solar flares and was said to very, very probably have the sheer strength to make the sun explode. I don't see the Ancients shattering space, draining worlds, learning every aspect of the dark side, killing people from a distance with just the force, stopping hearts, killing one of the first Dark Jedi ever, butchering centuries old Jedi masters, inferiors being able to match masters drawing up powers from the CORES of planets, requiring every Jedi of every era to bind them, unbalancing the Force by existing or having their deaths weaken the Dark Side...or drain energy from dark side and Jedi sites alike. Not to mention gathering a massive collection of Sith artifacts that he can use at will...or their very power surpassing transcending flesh...or being described as gods. Or titans. Or divinities, or the Dark Side's champion, or its manifestation, or impossible to defeat by fighting...

"Takes more than a ghost etc etc." "What's so important that you couldn't leave us to settle our own differences?"
Proof Ragnos could have touched them? Oh, there is none! And their leaders? Those were NAGA'S loyal massasi. And Ragnos played the Sith against eachother so their infighting would keep them busy.

More misdirection on Dol, he has to do with the ancient Sith and he, a trained warrior for centuries couldnt react to stop a group of inferiors?

Proof Kun didn't nhave two sabers at that point. We saw him using them. And once again: Sylvar, Ulic and Nomi had as much a stake in things.

Sylvar could never be crying because her MASTER died could she? Nope, no ownage.

Ood had four thousand years to recover, which Neti do naturally and was calling energy from Ossus's core....without food? Ok, know anything about trees?

Streen was PART of the trap. and proof it 'took' them all,...that's RIGHT, nothing says it was needed! But it DID say it took every Jedi from eons past to bind Palpatine...and Kun didn't do crap to Nadd, the Sith amulets did.

Gee, maybe-just maybe now- Palpatine was on guard against further attacks, Yoda realized he couldn't defeat Palpatine, Obi-wan needed to guard Luke and Palpatine'd kill Obi-wan in a second or be more than ready this time with Vader and a small legion of guards? And...was were Yoda or Obi getting on world without Vader or Palpatine sensing them? Yoda knew he needed to help Luke when he was older not throw his life away.

Who'd he underestimate? The dying guy nwho suddenly got empowered by the force or his loyal dog for twenty years who proclaimed Luke would join them or die?

Says they became luminous beings, at one with the force, drew light from...everywhere and channeled the entire light to block Palpatine from the dark....Where does it ever say they took 'parts of it'? Where is that even implied?

Shattering space is still more impressive than Sadow using an electrical weapon

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Give me a break! Illusions and use of an electrical weapon? Brakiss was able to manipulate solar flares and was said to very, very probably have the sheer strength to make the sun explode.

Shattering space is still more impressive than Sadow using an electrical weapon

I don't have time to address more then this, so I'll leave the rest for the others to rip apart.

Brakiss was able to manipulate solar flares on a very small scale. Furthermore, you have the quote from the book wrong. It said (paraphrased) that Brakiss might be able to do more then just manipulate solar flares on that small scale, but he doubted he could destroy a star and that he was much to fearful to ever try.

Second, a totally unsupported statement. Exactly how much energy does it take to shatter space. Quantify. In watts if you would.

Small scale? He was making the solar flares dance and wasn't even expending himself. And he never said he doubted it. He said he hoped he never had to try after being severely troubled by Zekk's question. That's one up on Sadow who used an electrical weapon.

Oh, since the force storm was described as the greatest usage of dark side power...ever, the point is moot

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't see the Ancients shattering space,


Ah...this is why Bane in Jedi vs Sith suggest to use a force storm on Ruusan which he must have learned from the Ancient Sith Holocron the Brotherhood of Darkness used as source for informations about the Dark Side. Yes. I'm quite sure the ancient Sith invented something just not to use it.



No. Nihilus was just a illusion. Again somebody who learned something from the Ancient Sith.



No. They just left most things behind that Sidious learned about.



Of course they never did that. Crushing stars is no problem, but when killing somebody else from a great distance (which Darth "80%-of-Sidious" Vader could do) they totally incompetent.



I wonder when we saw Sidious killing Xanatos...



I wonder how Odan and Vodo died....



Who took a blast from a supernova and remained in their place for 4,000 years. Feat wars anybody ?



Which was apparently impossible to do with the spirit of the Ancients.



Unbalance the Force by existance is done by every Sith. See TPM.



Yes. And because of this getting seperated from the own power by a lightside attack....



Not to mention that the Ancients created said artifacts and used them at will.



Damn it. You mean like the Ancient Sith who are descriped as titans, godlike, most powerful of the most powerful and are used by the Dark Side itself to talk to Sidious ? Meeeow...
Impossible to defeat by fighting ? You're talking about DE "Help ! My hand was cut off by DE Luke Skywalker" Sidious ?



Yes. They totally looked busy fighting each other in the comics. And do you spot the little contradiction between your pretty assumption that Ragnos played them against each other and then returns to tell them that they should cooperate ? No ?



Wow. Kir Karnos has to do with Sidious. Kan Naga Sadow kill Kir Kanos ? Yes ? OK. Then he can kill Sidious too. Nice argument.



Oh well. Maybe because the only weapon he carries is his modified lightsaber ?



And she didn't stop to trying to attack Kun because he send her flying with a handmovement and even tooled her before he became a Dark Sider ? Nope...



Oh. Know anything about Neti ? They need water too. Did Ood had water at hand ? No. Did he enter a 4,000 year Force trance to survive ? Yes. Can it be that a 5,000 year old being rewakening from a trance which had no water for 4,000 years can be a little bit out of top shape compared to the same being 4,000 years earlier ? Is this imagineable ?



No. It's nice how they keep talking about combining their power to stop Kun, Kun says "even together you aren't strong enough to defeat me", then starts force choking them all. That was foreseen by Luke's student of course which is why Streen developed the idea with pumping air into the lungs of the students while getting force choked and Dorskk 81 is surprised that he was able to breath again. Because that was part of the plan. Yes.

Oh you mean the Sith amulet created by the Ancient Sith ? Great. Everybody that creates an amulet = same power than Luke's students combined + Luke + Vodo in spirit form. Nice to know that.



Hello. Why didn't Yoda took Obi-Wan and then try to defeat Sidious in ROTS together with Obi-Wan ? When Vodo does something like this, is a complete f*ck up. When Yoda does it you come up with idiotic explanations.



+ DE Luke and Leia. Yes. He underestimated them. You know: That's the reason why the Sith fail all the time.



It doesn't say they channeled the entire light side. Get it into your head.

Prove how Bane learned that. Thought so...and force storm? OH, that was Bane with twenty six other people, but why sweat the details?

It's called 'scale.' When'd the Ancient Sith drains worlds? Stop the misdirection.

Quote: "He had mastered every aspect of the Dark Side." From the narrarator. I wonder...seriously, do you just ignore everything that doesn't fit Ancient Sith= Gods?

Ancient Sith used electrical weapons to even touch stars. KJA wrote that, arguing with him?

Xanatos? Why would Sidious kill Xanatos? And he killed Arden Lyn, thanks.

Maybe because Ragnos told them to unify? and what do you call Naga vs. Ludo? Logic. Use it. And notice Ragnos was dead when he told them to unify. It worked under his rule when he could keep them in line, not when he was dead.

Since you've decided to ignore Dol was killed by a bunch of inferiors, bringing the Ancients down a peg, I see you have nothing to say to it.

We see Kun pull out two sabers in The Sith war, nice try.

Sylvar COULDN'T POSSIBLY be crying because her father figure died, could she?

Ood drew power out of Ossus's core, along with his natural power, that would only be heightened from 4,000 years worth of meditating.

Streen was there for the purpose of dealing with that and the knowledge Kun wanted him. And yeah, Nadd is near the level of the Ancients now?

Why didn't Obi-wan and Yoda try something together? Yoda knew Obi-wan would slow him down and the obstacle's name is 'Vader'. Unlike Vodo, Yoda's reasons are written down. And Yoda didn't attakc the sith Lord with a stick...nor did he have three people standing there with him.

they became pure conduits to the force, united with the full light side and channelied the entirety of the light against Sidious's darkness. It's right there, accept it or not

Can you please tell me, why we have to go through this stuff over and over again when you yourself acknowledged that you don't know if Ragnos or Sidious is the most powerful - last week ?

No ? Nice.

No, I said it could change depending on who writes it. And that was until people kept on with this "Ragnos owns all" thing.

Still waiting for exact feats or quotes on the ancients. Or are you actually going to keep your word about withdrawing?

Yep Lightsnake, your fanboyism is becoming more and more evident, so you want to play feat wars, in that case you mind as well say Vader > Kun as Vader demonstrated far more feats.

Go back into hibernation.

I think I got rid of him,Deception.All I know is that I beat him in a debate with his own words(trust me,he IS a Sids Fanboy),hopefully he won't be back anytime soon.

Hopefully, but why does he want to convince us all?

Originally posted by Deception
Hopefully, but why does he want to convince us all? Because he thinks his words are over everyone else' and that what he says is right and what we say is wrong.He's nothing but a loser who says:"OmFG!!1!! $1d$ wi11 pwNs 411!!1!",with no proof to back up his statements except from some guy who just added his opinion to the NEC.Just ignore him.

Still waiting. And can the backwards logic stop being applied? and seriously, MM, calm the hell down. At the very least, I can bring out things to support my argument and bring out actual sources...authors adding their own opinions? Horror of horrors

Silly comment. That's not the point. Irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy.

Bane specifically stated he learned it from the Ancient Sith. Ergo it was an ancient sith technique. Same with Traya and Nihilus' drain, Kun's amulet blasts, Tavion's use of Ragnos' scepter, etc. etc.

And this is the Sith Empire millennia after it was "wiped to extinction" by the Republic and Empress Teta. What do you think happened? All the stuff just happened to stay perfectly in tact?

Of course not, the remnant knowledge of the Ancient Sith was great enough to make generations of individuals powerful. Naga Sadow was canonically a master of these Sith techniques. Here was a guy that could "see the galaxy in his mind's eye."

Stop downplaying the ancient Sith when Sidious' "most powerful attack evar!1111!" came from them, that's shooting yourself in the foot.

So wait, because the Sith invented all these techniques, because they were in a power hungry society of warlords, because they had centuries to completely immerse themselves in their lore, they were all weak?

Give me a break. Support your argument logically. Don't give me the "zOMG I have these lines from teh sourcebooke!!" and "You have no evidence from ze comics."



You have Kreia's quote on this; is that fact? You also have quotes saying that Ragnos was immensely strong and had a frightening grasp on the force. Yes, a frightening grasp on the force. Other sith lords feared him.



Sadow's illusions weren't dispelled until his concentration was broken even though he attacked Coruscant and the Jedi Temples themselves. So wait, next thing you're say is that "there were no skilled jedi there" and "there were only 6 Jedi on-panel, hear me roar!!"



It wasn't a problem. A fleet converged on Sadow twice, he blew up a red giant and a star cluster and got away twice. His fleet was battered once by Ludo and once by Teta.

That's like saying if Sidious is so uber, a one-armed, already injured and beaten cyborg would not have bench pressed him into a reactor core. More false comparisons and illogical fallacy.



We "know" eh? How would you know? Ragnos had centuries to digest and utilize his knowledge. After the destruction of the Sith Empire, it's safe to ASSUME that all the knowledge was still sitting there?

So it said Sidious had learned all, did Sidious learn all the stuff that the NJO Jedi invented after? Of course not. Sidious could only learn all that was available to him.

All that was available to him != mastery of every technique availabe to Marka Ragnos. Dice it however you want, twist canon however you want, you're still not right.

Yes, Tavion drained the force from planets too, is she more powerful than Sidious? Please. The ancients were said in KotOR to make the current Jedi look like children. Freedon Nadd were said to be so horrible that he cast a pall over his entire planet. Kun shook the earth when he walked.

You mixed in a Yoda quote (fallible) as well as a few others in to that list, great job. Maybe I should start pulling out every quote that's ever been said about the ancient Sith and start applying it like it's fact.

Come back when you stop mixing in logical fallacies into that thing you call an "argument."

That is untrue. Bane never mentions the Ancient Sith. And for the last time: It doesn't matter how he did it, he did it and it's written down in black and where. Where did the Ancients use the Force Storm? In the book of Anger, it was apparent it was a creation of Sidious and Bane NEVER ONCE mentions the Ancients. That's shooting your argument in the foot. And I'm afraid I do have evidence from the sourcebooks, and books, and comics. And exar Kun was a naturally talented and powerful Jedi, Sadow's notes didn't make him strong over night.

I want the quote on this 'frightening' grasp of the force.


Funny, attack on the JEdi temple? Which is why...the Jedi temple wasn't located on Coruscant and there were FOUR JEDI FIGHTING on Coruscant. You cna dispute thaT? Try. The comic shows them arriving on world and says only a few Jedi fight, led by Memit.

Naga killed Ludo in the opening of the engagement. And no, according to KJA's own writings, an electrical weapon destroyed the star. And if Naga could use a force storm, he'd have no problem.

DE sourcebook and future sources state: Sidious had mastered all aspects of the force, knew all the powers and techniques of the Sith and Jedi, all known, previously unknown and forgotten, and invented new techniques. Safe to say his knowledge is greater than Marka's by knowledge of Jedi abilities alone. You're the one twsiting canon here: Says directly in the sourcebook he knew what he did, case closed.


Tavion used a sceptre big surprise, a sceptre designed for that purpose and I'm STILL waiting for the world, NOT the individual site. And just try pulling out every quote from the Ancient Sith. But you better be able to support them with citations in actual canonical sources from narrarators. Apparently Kreia goes but Yoda's own POV cannot? You'd be hard rpessed to find any quotes on the Ancient Sith themselves...they;re never called gods for one...and no quotes comparing them to "The manifestation of the Dark side", the "Titan", the "Divinity." etc.

LMAO, sourcebooks count apparently (your words, not mine).

So okay. In the Tales of the Jedi companion, it describes (in story format) a "Force Storm" as "this is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. It allows a Jedi (both light and dark) to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force."

So wait, there goes your "Sidious is the best because of one attack that others can replicate" logic again.

You even tried to argue that Sidious "created" the Force Storm when it's referenced in a sourcebook for Jedi and Sith thousands of years prior and was again brought up by Bane. Bane was speaking of an attack by the "ancients." Now who would those be? His dad? Please.

As for Sidious' drain, it is also referenced in the TOTJ Companion (story section) as well as "Transfer Life."

And this is hilarious, I say the following:



And you retort with this crap:



Did you even read the post before you go into your pro-Sidious fanboy jargon? How does this logically support anything?



And prior to Sadow's notes, he knew 0 sith techniques and was put on his ass by Vodo. After Sadow's notes, he toyed with him, learned "all" of Freedon Nadd's sith magic, was able to freeze the entire senate and unchain Ulic remotely, and then still have time to toy with his former master.

So now Sadow's notes didn't do anything. Appeal to ridicule. Wonderful.



It's right there in KotOR, to the effect of Marka Ragnos had "immense physical strength and a frightening grasp of the dark side."



The comics show the Sith destroying everything and forcing the entire military back to the Senate, where then you see some Jedi coming out of and fighting. Nowhere does the scene involve the entirety of the battle, there is not a single overlooking scene in the book.

And I suppose when the Jedi say "call out the military," you have what? Twin girls and a parapalegic come help them? Please.

Coruscant and Cinnagar with Jedi help were about to fall to mostly an army of illusions from Naga Sadow. Fact. And here you are throwing around belittling irrelevant remarks.



Weren't you the one that claimed since Naga Sadow didn't use force storm, he didn't know it? Okay, Naga Sadow also didn't use his amulet, does he not know it? The Force Storm is an attack the ancients knew. Fact. Bane implies as much, the Tales of the Jedi companion mentions as much.

And Naga killed Ludo at the opening of the engagement? Are you smoking something? Ludo engaged Naga and both sides sustained damage. Naga specifically sent one of his "doomed ships" crashing into Ludo.

And according to KJA's writings? Point me out the line. Sadow used 2 or 3 different methods of manipulating solar flares and detonating stars, which one was he referring to?



It doesn't say "all that was previously unknown or forgotten," did it? Where did Sidious pull out of his ass the stuff that was destroyed on Ziost or Korriban or the dozens of other Sith worlds?

And more than Marka's by Jedi ability alone? The Unifying force establishes that there are no separations between force abilities. Besides, the Dark Jedi that started the Sith Empire used Jedi techniques. The Sith demonstrated the ability to use telekinesis, to heal with the force, and to use other techniques.

Where did it reference that Sidious knows "all" of the Sith magics, like it referenced for Kun?



A scepter strong enough to imbue non-force users with the ability to use the force. A scepter that could possibly revive a Sith altogether.



It specifically states that she drained from Vjun as well as a other sites across the galaxy, hence why you go on a goose chase, or did you not play JK:A?

The only time we see her absorbing the force from an individual site was the Temples on Yavin. That's a pretty damn large site, in all honesty.



And you still don't read.

You have Kreia's quote on this; is that fact?

Nice job on reading.



According to your own logic, if Sidious doesn't demonstrate the ability, he dosn't have it or can't apply it. Well then, Sidious' completely illogical statement of knowing all force powers and he doesn't apply a good deal of them. So I can assume he doesn't have them? That's what you were doing for the Ancient Sith.

You are caught in your own hypocrisy. If you try to worm out of this one, I'll gladly point out your damn lie.

And wonderful, you can use these great hyperbolic terms when he was defeated by a "half-trained farmboy," Again, from DE.

So, TOTJ sourcebook was later retconned or there's a contradiction here. Not the first time. And yeah, sourcebooks count, according to Dan Wallace, as much as books in story info-I've posted links proving it before- as they both are approved by editors...and also, waiting for where Bane said anything on the subject.

The Jedi are fighting from the start...four Jedi. That's it. And about to fall? When was THAT mentioned?

Right, because the amulet is the same thing as a fleet destroying attack when your'e under attack...by a fleet! And Ludo dies on what, the second page? Third maybe after he comes back and one panel of fighting before the ship slams into Ludo?

Essential Chronology, written by KJA: Naga Sadow used an electrical weapon on his ship etc etc....and in The Sith War, when Exar says the weapon on the ship destroyed a star.

Take it up with the canon: It did say "all known, unknown and forgotten techniques and invents new ones at his pleasure." And nope, Morichrio and Malacia are Jedi arts...Luke shoots down Vergere's theories in Dark Nest.

Sidious could imbue people with the power of the dark side too and Tavion was the one who apparently discovered the idea of imbuing, considering it couldn't do it at the drop of the hat and needed absorbed energy. And all Of Vjun, or Vader's castle?

Kreia is going on what? Hearsay? Her beliefs? I'd trust Yoda over Kreia any day.

Sorry, but Sidious was stated to have those abilities, so that kind of rebuttal doesn't fly. Notice in De, Luke is described as a divinity, incredibly powerful and a titan? And the 'purest light' in the galaxy?
And know, you can't assume a thing because it states he does know them, whereas there's...what exactly stating what the Ancients knew?

Have you read DE, Illustrious? The final battle between Luke and Palpatine consists of the greatest power we have ever seen in SW, they were approaching DBZ levels of power here...moving around as light and dark flashes faster than the eye can see, shockwaves killing bystanders out of the sheer power of the fight....force sensitives feeling it all the way across the galaxy. It was not just Luke vs Palpatine, it was effectively a battle between the light and dark sides of the force.


Do you honestly see the ancient sith pulling *this* kind of power out of their ass? I dont.

One thing I need to put out:



The NEC says otherwise. Check page 9, on the right side of "The Great Hyperspace War - 5000 BBY", it says this exactly:

"Sadow made one last sorcerous gambit. He flew his warship between a tight binary star, the Dena rii Nova, and used Sith powers to manipulate the solar flares that destroyed the Republic ships in his wake".

Seems Sadow did know how to manipulate solar flares, or whatever.

To quote the original EC, he used 'terrible Sith technology'...and didn't Kun say the ship allowed Sadow to destroy a star?

It was probably a combination of both, good find though.In the DS SBK it says: but he once again used the electric weapon attached to his ship, this time on the nearby Denarii stars...and Aleema used the ship to do the same

Darkside Sourcebook wasn't written with Kevin J. Anderson. The New Essential Chronolgy, however, was. Also note the DS Sourcebook was published in 2001, whereas the NEC was in 2005.

It doesn't matter who writes what, LFL goes over and takes care of everything....KJA's involvement this time, according to Dan, was what he'd written for the first chronology, in 2000

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It doesn't matter who writes what, LFL goes over and takes care of everything....KJA's involvement this time, according to Dan, was what he'd written for the first chronology, in 2000

Okay, then LFL decided it was alright, thus the NECs standpoint becomes canon because of it's date. And, in the first chronology, did he not write about TOTJ? Of course he did, he wrote TOTJ.

Yeah, but we have one instance there, with others...and the Primus Guuld occurance was written by KJA as technology, at least...plus, Kun's on the record..

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, but we have one instance there, with others...and the Primus Guuld occurance was written by KJA as technology, at least...plus, Kun's on the record..

NEC published 2005, the New Essential Chronology, the updated version of the Essential Chronology, therefore NEC > EC. Also, Dan himself said KJA was "limited by what he wrote in the EC", well he wrote about the Dena rii Nova, too then. And, like I've been saying NEC > EC.

Also, Primus Goluud was a different battle. That was when Gav turned on Naga, so I'm sure it could be his ship, however, later it says on the Dena rii Nova, that he used his own Sith powers.

And, Kun only claimed can blow up stars. Okay, we know it can thanks to Aleema, however, that's all he said about it. Not that Sadow "required it to blow up a star, or do this with a star, etc.", and the NEC points out that he can do it without the ship.

I could point out Sith powers could be taken another way, and that other sources-as we've discussed off forums- have pointed to the electrical weapon thing...

If you have a point to make, do make an effort to prove up. Motoko's provided some nice points here from what I gather, and you're just saying "We discussed it on forums".

No, no, Motoko and I have been discussing this off the forums. On page five of the EC, which was written by KJA, it says he destroyed Primus Guuld with the ship, as well as in the DSBK, that he used an electrical weapon to destroy the star.

If KJA ever responds, I'll be glad to ask him for clarification, though

Ah, my mistake then. *Was barely skimming anyways*

NP.

Yes, we actually are discussing it on IM, however, whatever the EC states means absolutely zilch, I don't understand how the older Chronology somehow can be considered canon, especially in this case, as the New Essential Chronology, which is updated.

Think of it as this -- updated draft of a script is more official than an older draft.

As for the Darkside Sourcebook, as stated, it was written in 2001, and by two guys who I don't even know. There is only three things that I know about the Darkside Sourcebook:

1.) That it is a RPG sourcebook.
2.) It was written four years prior to the NEC.
3.) And, that it had no involvement/wasn't written by KJA.

Okay though, let's take the second thing I know about the DS Sourcebook. The EC was written in 2000, so I could see why the DS Sourcebook would claim about Sadow using technology wherever, since it was published in 2001.

Now, given that, the NEC was published four years later, hence it is the "New Essential Chronology". The Darkside Sourcebook most likely was taking what was written by KJA in the EC, and using it. However, since the NEC is published at a later date, is an updated version of the EC -- the NEC is higher level of canon than both the EC, and DS Sourcebook on Sadow and his said Sith powers.

However, 'Sith powers' could be taken to mean their technology. A stretch, true...still, this is an inconsistency and it's not been mentioned again. KJA did write, when he had control, that Sadow used the weapon at PRomuus Guuld, uncontradicted by the NEC...
And once more, RPG sourcebooks are on the same level as anything else in issues, and Dan himself admitted there were some issues in the NEC on his blog, I'll ask him and KJA about this if K. ever responds.

And Naga himself says he's going to make use of the ship's remaining power before he flies at the Denarii I believe, not to mention Aleema does the same with the ship on a more destructive scale....this is ambiguous indeed, though we're not gonna reach anything on it. I'll consider this a loose end till I can get some kind of confirmation

Originally posted by Lightsnake
However, 'Sith powers' could be taken to mean their technology. A stretch, true...still, this is an inconsistency and it's not been mentioned again.

All I can say is "...".

Actually, I can say more. It says in a "sorcerous gambit". Sorcerous is relating to magic of course -- which relates in Star Wars as what we have came to know as "The Force".



And? He used it at Primus Goluud, which was before the Dena rii Nova. We know his ship can blow up stars, Aleema does it. However, the NEC states he used his Sith powers. Since when is "technology" and "powers" the same thing?

Also, it says in the NEC that "around the flare-active red giant star".



And? Look (assuming X, and Y are conflicting issues):

Script Draft A claims X.
Script Draft B claims Y.
Script Draft B was written after Script A.

Which script is more official?



Agreed, I'll say we'll wait for word, however, for the time being I'm pretty sure we can conclude that NEC > EC/DS.

Not entirely, as Dan left a few things out and made some errors. And Naga himself even says he'll make use of the remaining power they have left.

Problem is, the NEC does lack some clarification and gives almost zero elbaoration on Primus Guuld, so the former sources could stand. I stand by my theory it was the ship with help from Sadow himself, but I propose we let the issue rest here till I can get some kind of confirmation, with the contradictions abound here

LIghtsnake is still here?

Originally posted by tdtd
LIghtsnake is still here?

Your still here?

Yes I am, I figured you could save yourself 9 days of embarassments.

Originally posted by tdtd
Yes I am, I figured you could save yourself 9 days of embarassments.


O RLY?


I thought you got banned, for being a dumbass that no one likes.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
O RLY?


I thought you got banned, for being a dumbass that no one likes.

If that were a real reason for banishment, the OTF would be empty.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
If that were a real reason for banishment, the OTF would be empty.
So true...

LOL

What contradiction? Where was it stated specifically that Sidious invented the Force Storm and that he was the only one that could use it in history? The TOTJ companion mentions that it's a dark side ability that Jedi (dark jedi especially) could pull off.



The NARRATOR mentions that Coruscant is about to fall.



Irrelevant, Ludo was fighting and he did attack Naga Sadow.



Already addressed. Why is the newer edition suddenly not canon when it supports an ancient Sith argument?



Nowhere did I say Morichro or Malacia are not Jedi arts.

All known, unknown, and forgotten does not mean "all known, all unknown, and all forgotten." Sorry, the modifier of all is not carried over. It's simply impossible for Sidious to know all "unknown" force abilities, nor can he dig it out of his ass the "forgotten one." And it's irrelevant, as he still lost anyway.



It said she drained from Vjun, not "Vader's castle." The player goes to Vader's castle. Again, the only time we see her actually draining from a source at all is the temples on Yavin, which is a huge source.

Yes, and this was merely one of several trinkets the ancient Sith had.



Kreia is going on experience in learning the Sith Arts maybe? Glad that you'd trust Yoda more, but you also trust an older edition of the Chronology (another guidebook) but not the TOTJ companion or the New Essential Chronology when it states evidence contrary to your beliefs.



Stated to have, not stated to be able to use. Again, he doesn't use it; so again, does that prove he can't? According to your prior logic in this very thread, yes it does. Don't argue with yourself, if your logic can't stay consistent, we won't bother.



Could him being one of the few Jedi around have anything to do with that?

And again, these hyperbolic descriptions are nothing if not substantiated. Luke years after DE struggled with Kun's spirit.



We know they have a scepter that drains, stores, imbues, and makes attack with pure fore energy. We know they have amulets that can fire blasts that "double in power with each pulse" and vaporize things on contact. We know they made swords that can withstand lightsabers and swirl with sith power. We know they can create ships that can rip cores with Sith Technology, we know they could create great war beasts with Sith Alchemy, we know they can destroy stars with sith sorcery, we know their remnant artifacts and knowledge made Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, and even Sidious into godlike beings in the galaxy.

But of course, they don't have anything of any value.

They displayed plenty in just 2 comics of showings, yet apparently, nothing is ever good enough when it comes to comparing someone to your favorite character.

holy crap tdtd is here...run for the hills!

Funny, Lightsnake was claiming that the NEC was god's gift to Star Wars when one line supported Sidious. But now that it supports the ancient Sith he's all poo-pooing it?

I love the personal attacks from the morons on this forum.

Vengance loves Lightsnake, simply because they are Sidious fanboys.

Why don't they just sit down and do a book on Ragnos and Freedon Nadd.. THat would be so helpful.

Originally posted by Illustrious
What contradiction? Where was it stated specifically that Sidious invented the Force Storm and that he was the only one that could use it in history? The TOTJ companion mentions that it's a dark side ability that Jedi (dark jedi especially) could pull off.



The NARRATOR mentions that Coruscant is about to fall.



Irrelevant, Ludo was fighting and he did attack Naga Sadow.



Already addressed. Why is the newer edition suddenly not canon when it supports an ancient Sith argument?



Nowhere did I say Morichro or Malacia are not Jedi arts.

All known, unknown, and forgotten does not mean "all known, all unknown, and all forgotten." Sorry, the modifier of all is not carried over. It's simply impossible for Sidious to know all "unknown" force abilities, nor can he dig it out of his ass the "forgotten one." And it's irrelevant, as he still lost anyway.



It said she drained from Vjun, not "Vader's castle." The player goes to Vader's castle. Again, the only time we see her actually draining from a source at all is the temples on Yavin, which is a huge source.

Yes, and this was merely one of several trinkets the ancient Sith had.



Kreia is going on experience in learning the Sith Arts maybe? Glad that you'd trust Yoda more, but you also trust an older edition of the Chronology (another guidebook) but not the TOTJ companion or the New Essential Chronology when it states evidence contrary to your beliefs.



Stated to have, not stated to be able to use. Again, he doesn't use it; so again, does that prove he can't? According to your prior logic in this very thread, yes it does. Don't argue with yourself, if your logic can't stay consistent, we won't bother.



Could him being one of the few Jedi around have anything to do with that?

And again, these hyperbolic descriptions are nothing if not substantiated. Luke years after DE struggled with Kun's spirit.



We know they have a scepter that drains, stores, imbues, and makes attack with pure fore energy. We know they have amulets that can fire blasts that "double in power with each pulse" and vaporize things on contact. We know they made swords that can withstand lightsabers and swirl with sith power. We know they can create ships that can rip cores with Sith Technology, we know they could create great war beasts with Sith Alchemy, we know they can destroy stars with sith sorcery, we know their remnant artifacts and knowledge made Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, and even Sidious into godlike beings in the galaxy.

But of course, they don't have anything of any value.

They displayed plenty in just 2 comics of showings, yet apparently, nothing is ever good enough when it comes to comparing someone to your favorite character.

DE showed Sidious apparently created the force storm by focusing his anger on the fabric of space. There's the contradiction.

And Ludo does...how soon after he attacks? Momentarily?

The new edition was described by the author as an in document source, and since KJA's word is so important to the process, apparently it contradicts what he had to say.

And please...I can't believe this...how the hell else can all be applied? All known, previously unknown and forgotten techniques and invents new ones at his pleasure? The word 'all' means 'all' and would apply to the entire sentence, not just one word because you want it to.

That's great, but she was at Vader's castle in Vjun and there's nothing to substantiate her being anywhere else.

And sometihng in the NEC says the Ancient Sith>The current Sith? And who's the more trustworthy source...one of the most knowledgable Jedi masters ever who's fought Sidious and from whose POV we're seeing or a known manipulator?

Once again: Sidious was stated to know everything to that point, and besides the former sentence in the DE SBK, it said he had mastered every aspect of the force in all its guises and mastered all techniques of the Jedi and Sith, with numerous other groups as well.

'Incredibly powerful.' Period. No comparisons, nothing, so...nope, it doesn;t.

Proof how they got or made any of those trinkets? and I'm waiting for where Bane mentioned the Ancient Sith. And PAlpatine showed plenty of power too and was stated to know everything up to his point...of course, that's irrelevant to the love of the Ancients...never mind Sadow was the only one who did anythhing worthwhile...what'd Ludo do that was so strong exactly?

You lost lightsnake

Td? You have a rock to be under I believe. Let the big boys talk

Lightsnake, how many times do you need to be cast out of this forum to learn that we live in reality, and you live in reality according to you..

Dude, you are in NO position to talk

Considering I've never been shunned from this forum, nor publically humiliated, I think I do..

All those who were banned, raise your hand

All of those who can't comprehend the difference between banned and shunned raise yours.. You should really stop now lightsnake, it's too easy.

And so the shunning begins.

Oh lord, youre too easy lightsnake, I'm done.

Halleluah

DN Luke could probably pull this off, but I doubt NJO Luke could.

There isn't that much of a difference between Luke at NJO, and DN I wouldn't think...it's only a few years

Well when I said NJO Luke, I was thinking of Luke as of Vector Prime. He probably became powerful enough by the time of Unifying Force to defeat Ragnos.

That's the Luke people generally take when they say 'NJO Luke'

Originally posted by BLAK FOX
Well when I said NJO Luke, I was thinking of Luke as of Vector Prime. He probably became powerful enough by the time of Unifying Force to defeat Ragnos.

What Lightsnake pointed out was correct, it's usually at NJO Luke's most powerful peak. Actually, it's like that for everyone -- whatever incarnation of a character, most of the time it's referring to their most powerful peak if it's during a series, unless stated otherwise.

Oh right.

DN Luke still couldn't take Ragnos.

With the extraordinary ability to pass as a ghost, who could?

Of course, lightsnake's word>comics.

I've asked you before what these comics say

And I've told you, open them up and look at the picture where Odan Urr wakes up from his nightmare.

Nope, nothing about Ragnos

Then youre blind, moving on.

It's him vanishing into his tomb, point being?

And that's not considered the passing of Ragnos spirit for a millennia that caused a great disturbance in the force? Lol.

How do spirits pass? Odan never mentions Ragnos and all Ragnos does is go to chill in his tomb

Why does he have to MENTION Ragnos lightsnake? You see Ragnos passing in the damn picture, and Odan Urr waking up. Odan Urr feels Ragnos' passing and realizes the fabled sith empire is still alive.

What you see is Ragnos fading into his tomb...Odan just mentions his nightmares of the empire, any ALLUSIONS to Ragnos are nonexistant. Plus, the JEdi didn't even KNOW OF any Sith Empire, 1 and 2? Ragnos didn't pass...he just went into his tomb...and wouldn't the passing of a powerful and evil spirit be a GOOD thing?

His spirit "passed". It was nonexistent for the next millennium ergo it passed. And Odan Urr sees the sith empire AS A RESULT of Ragnos "passing", it's that simple.

How the hell is that even POSSIBLE? Where the HELL is your evidence?!

I'm looking at the damn scans in my comics, what the hell do you mean how is it possible?

Unos...dos...tres...

How in the name of the Force can you just become nonexistent for a millenium?

His spirit was nonexistent to anyone living for over a thousand years, until Exar Kun and Ulic were fighting and their amulets started shining. What don't you understand?

So? Was the Sith Empire nonexistent for two thou years? Their amulets shining summoned Ragnos, among others. Ragnos just went into his tomb, he didn't 'pass from the world'

Oh lord.. And yes, the Sith empire was driven to extinction. And there was no NEW Sith Empire prior to the PT.. The original and ONLY Sith Empire was destroyed in the Hyperspace War.

Sith species maybe...Sith empire? Nope. IT's called the Sith Empire, it holds onto the empire's ideal, follows the religion...they're Sith.

Just get it through your skull: Ragnos didn't fade from the galaxy, he just chilled on Korriban with Dathka, Tulak and Ajunta for a while