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Round1: Sabers only
Round2: Force only
Round3: Anything goes

ANH Obi. ROTJ Luke gives him some trouble.

Obi pwns.

Obi pwns.

I'd say Obi-Wan wins all three with relative ease.

Btw vpokfjdklfhlf, your sig is....... strange.

Meh, Ben takes this. He may have been generally out of practice for twenty years, but he's far more experienced than Luke, and far more powerful...

1)A tough fight. Luke could probably pierce his defences if Luke taps into the dark side. Otherwise, I'm not sure. Either way, it wouldn't be easy for either party.

2)Ben's experience would win him the fight. Luke has learned a helluva lot in a short amount of time, but not enough to deal with Ben at this point.

3)Probably Ben in a tough fight. It depends on the place and how far away they are at the beginning of the fight.

1. Saber duel: Luke may be a good duelist, but he would be no match for Obi-Wan, even the 50+ year old version.

2. Luke undoubtedly has greater Force Potential, but he lacks the experiance of Obi-Wan

3. I'm not so sure about the "Anything goes" thing. If it's a fist fight, without a doubt Luke. A space fight.... erm..... probably Luke (maybe Obi-Wan, I dont know! shock). If it's a saber and force fight together, Obi-Wan

Obi-Wan wins all three of them.

Obi-Wan destroys Luke.

Originally posted by Jabba the Hutt
Round1: Sabers only
Round2: Force only
Round3: Anything goes
1. Luke hasn't had anywhere near as much dueling experience as Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan proved in the Mosiesly Cantina that he still has alot of speed. Obi wins. Obi-Wan could have defeated Vader in ANH if he had wanted to, IMO, and Luke only beat Vader cause of the Dark Side and the fact that Vader was conflicted.
2. Obi-Wan pwns Luke. In ANH Obi-Wan is at the prime of his life as far as Force Powers go. Luke's just... not that good yet.
3. Obi-Wan wins, Luke puts up a pretty good fight, but Obi-Wan has a solid victory.

Originally posted by darthsith19
1. Luke hasn't had anywhere near as much dueling experience as Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan proved in the Mosiesly Cantina that he still has alot of speed. Obi wins. Obi-Wan could have defeated Vader in ANH if he had wanted to, IMO, and Luke only beat Vader cause of the Dark Side and the fact that Vader was conflicted.
2. Obi-Wan pwns Luke. In ANH Obi-Wan is at the prime of his life as far as Force Powers go. Luke's just... not that good yet.
3. Obi-Wan wins, Luke puts up a pretty good fight, but Obi-Wan has a solid victory.

He could have beat Vader if he wanted to? That's news to me. Weren't they equal?

It's funny how that EXACT line is the opposite in the ANH novel.

"Obi-Wan would have defeated Vader if he could have"

Alas, he couldn't.

They were equally matched.

They were evenly matched, were they? What does Vader have over Kenobi? Hmm? kenobi has speed, saber skills and Force powers over Vader.

He may have the agility factor, but he's unable to overpower Vader in lightsabre combat and perhaps through the force.

Ben had absolutely no reason to train at all...

I can say with confidence that Ben wins all three pretty easily.

Originally posted by darthsith19
They were evenly matched, were they? What does Vader have over Kenobi? Hmm? kenobi has speed, saber skills and Force powers over Vader.

If you weren't wrong, I would believe you.

Speed? Probably. Saber skills? Force powers? Definitely not.

I doubt Olb Ben even has speed on Vader.

Vader has the advantage of having been very active the past twenty years, killing Jedi and subjugating planets and whatnot.

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan would manhandle Luke with the Force, and most likely with a lightsaber. Luke isn't all that great...he beat Vader because Vader was thinking "Oh my god, my son is trying to kill me! What do I do, what do I do...do I kill him? Do I turn him to the Dark Side? Do I join him?! What?!" and Luke was going "I HATE YOU!"

...

Yeah.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
He may have the agility factor, but he's unable to overpower Vader in lightsabre combat and perhaps through the force.

Ben had absolutely no reason to train at all...
But he was fighting Krayt Dragons and saving Jedi and stuff. Lightsnake can tell you what Kenobi did.

rotj luke would probably win in a saber duel, ben hasnt dueled or sparred since he came to tatooine, being seen with a saber would be enough to cost him his life and possibly give up lukes position. in anh i think the only reason he brought it out was because he and luke were leaving and he knew the imperials wouldnt be able to track them.

force duel im not sure. luke is supposed to have the potential anakin would have had he not been confined to the suit. so although he wouldnt have achieved it he was still very powerful. plus he used some dark side attacks obi wan wouldnt have. 50/50 i think.

last one i think luke would win. he never seemed to be in too much danger when he was fighting vader in rotj, and in the end drove vader back and bullied him to the ground before disrming him. luke 80% of the time.

Granted, Obi-Wan hasn't been fighting off sith marauders for the last twenty years, but I doubt he's so damn feeble that ROTJ Luke can take him. Don't be daft, kid.

rotj luke manhandled vader at the end of their fight, during the entire thing luke never seemed to be pushed to a limit or forced back. obi wan vs vader in anh they were about equal, so the way luke handled vader in rotj leads me to think he could do fairly similar to obi wan, especially considering obi wans lack of recent experience.

... No, you don't know what you're talking about.

any evidence to support obi wan winning?

People would say that his experience alone would win him the fight. Because he has been training in the Jedi Temple practically his whole life. Now, that may seem like an advantage, but it limits the use of emotions in a duel. Luke has lived a normal life and knows how to hate. When Luke uses his anger while fighting, he is deadly. If he gave into the darkside and fought Obi Wan in a saber duel on a neutral setting, I'm confident Luke could win.
Now Luke hasn't had much experience in force training, and his potential alone wouldn't win him the fight. Notice how Obi Wan stalemated another full-potential Skywalker when he was less experienced. Obi Wan beats Luke in the force.
A full out fight depends on the scenario, setting, and distance between the two.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
People would say that his experience alone would win him the fight. Because he has been training in the Jedi Temple practically his whole life. Now, that may seem like an advantage, but it limits the use of emotions in a duel. Luke has lived a normal life and knows how to hate. When Luke uses his anger while fighting, he is deadly. If he gave into the darkside and fought Obi Wan in a saber duel on a neutral setting, I'm confident Luke could win.
Now Luke hasn't had much experience in force training, and his potential alone wouldn't win him the fight. Notice how Obi Wan stalemated another full-potential Skywalker when he was less experienced. Obi Wan beats Luke in the force.
A full out fight depends on the scenario, setting, and distance between the two.
Wow assuming that just because Obi-wan wouldn't let his emotions get to his head is a disadvantage is one of the worst peices of logic I have ever seen...

So your telling me Obi-wan doesn't know how to hate? Aside from the fact that it has little if anything to do with the fight, claiming that Obi-wan doesn't no how to hate is bullshit.

He is a freakin human being... hate comes natural to any member of the human race.

Originally posted by Decay
any evidence to support obi wan winning?

Obi-Wan has extensive training, and isn't an idiot.

Luke wasn't stupid in ROTJ.

But he still gets destroyed by Ben.

Ben has dozens of years of Jedi training, was the Republic hero in one of the biggest wars ever, known as one of the best swordsmen in the Order (third to Mace and Yoda... not counting Anakin), destroyed General Grievous (Someone who pwned Jedi Masters who were greater than Luke)...

He spent some of his time hunting down Krayt Dragons and freeing Jedi. And he also fought Darth Maul again.

Originally posted by Razielim
Luke wasn't stupid in ROTJ.

But he still gets destroyed by Ben.

Ben has dozens of years of Jedi training, was the Republic hero in one of the biggest wars ever, known as one of the best swordsmen in the Order (third to Mace and Yoda... not counting Anakin), destroyed General Grievous (Someone who pwned Jedi Masters who were greater than Luke)...

He spent some of his time hunting down Krayt Dragons and freeing Jedi. And he also fought Darth Maul again.
Darth Maul was dead...

Fought Darth Maul again? What is this? Infinities Happy Hour?

Maybe it was, I didn't check.

Half of Maul was robotic...

Doublecheck that. I think the first 21 or so Infinities comics are noncanon. Could be more though.

ben does have heaps of training, and hes still good with a saber, but its likley he hasnt picked it up in 2 decades. he has more overall experience, but luke has more immediate experience. more immediate intensive training, youth, and yoda as a teacher.

experience alone isnt enough to win a fight, and thats all old ben has. can someone put foward some real evidence indicating ben would win. im not a luke fanboy and i have no problem with ben winning, i just havent seen anything to indicate he would.

the maul fight was in the visionaries comic if i recall correctly. it was a pretty cool story, but contradicts direct canon (lucas says maul died on naboo). ben won that with a neat trick too, not superior saber skills. if he managed to trick luke in the same way he could win, luke is inexperienced overall and a bit emotional for a jedi so he might take the bait. thats the only way i can see ben winning. actually, thinking about it like that he has a decent chance after all.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
People would say that his experience alone would win him the fight. Because he has been training in the Jedi Temple practically his whole life. Now, that may seem like an advantage, but it limits the use of emotions in a duel. Luke has lived a normal life and knows how to hate. When Luke uses his anger while fighting, he is deadly. If he gave into the darkside and fought Obi Wan in a saber duel on a neutral setting, I'm confident Luke could win.
Now Luke hasn't had much experience in force training, and his potential alone wouldn't win him the fight. Notice how Obi Wan stalemated another full-potential Skywalker when he was less experienced. Obi Wan beats Luke in the force.
A full out fight depends on the scenario, setting, and distance between the two.
No, when Luke uses anger he turns into Stevie Wonder at batting practice.

But before that he isn't half bad.

Ben would still win.

Originally posted by PurpleSaber
No, when Luke uses anger he turns into Stevie Wonder at batting practice.

In the movies, visually judging lightsaber skills, your average PT Jedi sucks way worse than Luke. In the Geonosis arena , and the brief clips we see in the Jedi Temple, they get mowed down easy.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
In the movies, visually judging lightsaber skills, your average PT Jedi sucks way worse than Luke. In the Geonosis arena , and the brief clips we see in the Jedi Temple, they get mowed down easy.


I can't believe you actually said that.

No, I'm not saying that ROTJ Luke>>> all, I wanted to clear that up before people go nuclear on me. I'm just saying that he does better on screen than your average PT Jedi Knight/Padawan doing.That's all, it was because someone said Luke looks like (bad analogy here), when PT Jedi look worse.

Except that that's a subjective opinion, and it's bullshit on top of that.

Jedi in Geonosis performed better when vastly outnumbered and surrounded compared to Luke Skywalker who fought a couple of goons on Jabba's yacht.

Not all the droids focus fired at them though. Take Trebor, for example. Couldn't deflect a few blaster bolts from Jango Fett. Meanwhile, Luke took on Boba Fett plus at least 20 other guards, once deflecting Boba's shot while tied up.

He was pretty good by ROTJ.

Originally posted by Razielim
Not all the droids focus fired at them though. Take Trebor, for example. Couldn't deflect a few blaster bolts from Jango Fett. Meanwhile, Luke took on Boba Fett plus at least 20 other guards, once deflecting Boba's shot while tied up.

He was pretty good by ROTJ.

Yes, I absolutely love idiotic blanket statements.

1. Coleman Trebor deflected a few short ranged blasts from a man who can shoot a dart into a changelings neck from atop a building, or kill the colliseum creature with one shot to the face. That's actually pretty good considering that the guy isn't heavy for combat. And last I checked, Coleman Trebor != entire PT order. Don't be silly.

2. Luke did NOT take on at least 20 guards; he fought perhaps a half dozen thugs and goons with the IQ of headlice. This is a far cry from being in a full battle with hundreds of battle droids. And Boba Fett got KO'd by a blind Han Solo. Blind Han Solo >>> Boba Fett = deminished feat.

1. Coleman Trebor deflected a few short ranged blasts from a man who can shoot a dart into a changelings neck from atop a building, or kill the colliseum creature with one shot to the face. That's actually pretty good considering that the guy isn't heavy for combat. And last I checked, Coleman Trebor != entire PT order. Don't be silly.

Coleman Trebor is as good as any representative from the PT order. 80% of the Order practised Niman, and he was a master of it. He was also a Council Member. Most PT Jedi aren't heavy on combat either. Most were diplomat-style practicioners.

2. Luke did NOT take on at least 20 guards; he fought perhaps a half dozen thugs and goons with the IQ of headlice. This is a far cry from being in a full battle with hundreds of battle droids.

Three of those hover thingies with approximatly 6 guards each. Approximatly 18, but more than half a dozen guards.

And considering the average Jedi, you know, died in the Arena, whereas Luke survived. Alone.

Blind Han Solo >>> Boba Fett = deminished feat.

"Yes, I absolutely love idiotic blanket statements."

-_-

Originally posted by Razielim
Coleman Trebor is as good as any representative from the PT order. 80% of the Order practised Niman, and he was a master of it. He was also a Council Member. Most PT Jedi aren't heavy on combat either. Most were diplomat-style practicioners.

Oh, cool. So Coleman Trebor = any PT order member. Source? Evidence? Is this "razielim's opinion" or something objective? And how can you "master" Niman? For one thing, Niman is a general form which emphasizes only a basic understanding of each form in order to give a jedi more time to focus on diplomacy and the force. How you could "master" a form that is not meant to be mastered is beyond me. If Coleman Trebor mastered Niman, he'd effectively be a cracked out Juyo Master, and would be able to WTFpwn just about anybody in the order save for Mace and Yoda. And where's the source that Coleman Trebor "mastered" anything?



Apparently you have a comprehension problem.

Large arena filled with hundreds to thousands of battle droids, super battle droids, and droidekas versus a sail barge that's not moving and a few skiffs with some goons, some of which had next to no military talent and others who didn't even have ranged weapons.

Let's see here.... Hmmm....



And considering that the average jedi died in a battle turned massacre, while Luke got his hand scortched by a hired goon and would have been shot by Boba if Han Solo hadn't accidentally hit the guy with a staff, this isn't a good comparison. What Luke Skywalker did on that sail barge could have been accomplished by TPM Obi-Wan with relative ease. TPM Obi-Wan was a padawan, and yet he came through the doors of that Trade Federation ship and deflected everything that came before him. Luke got fried just handling goons.

In The Approaching Storm, Anakin Skywalker and Barriss Offee, padawans, are able to take on a group of about 25-30 similar goons (Made up of Wee-quays, Gamorreans, and humans) wielding melee weapons and blasters and they survived without a scratch. And they were ambushed.

Now, is Anakin and Barriss somehow greater than the average jedi? No, they're not. If jedi were that pathetic, it would not be completely unusual for Phow Ji to be respected for defeating one in combat (He was a nonforce sensitive mercenary). It wouldn't be the case that when Obi-Wan and Anakin land on Ansion, they're held in awe even by the warriors of the planet.

No, average jedi aren't pieces of shit. And ROTJ Luke, who barely has the training to take on a sail barge full of morons, isn't better than average jedi.

And ANH Ben absolutely ****s his shit up.

Meh, Old Ben would kick his ass as I said. But I feel ROTJ Luke deserves a bit more credit than he's given.

Anywho, here are the scans from Maul vs Ben.

http://agasonex.com/maul/maul_01.jpg

http://agasonex.com/maul/maul_02.jpg

http://agasonex.com/maul/maul_03.jpg

http://agasonex.com/maul/maul_04.jpg

http://agasonex.com/maul/maul_05.jpg

http://agasonex.com/maul/maul_06.jpg

http://agasonex.com/maul/maul_07.jpg

http://agasonex.com/maul/maul_08.jpg

http://agasonex.com/maul/maul_09.jpg

http://agasonex.com/maul/maul_10.jpg

From "Old Wounds". Turns out it was an infinity. Cool comic anyways.

Ben looks a bit too old for 42, though.

Wow, does anyone else think that Maul was really made up to look like Satan in that comic?

That's a sweeettt comic

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Wow, does anyone else think that Maul was really made up to look like Satan in that comic?
Yea the horns...

This thread is bullshit. Luke BEAT Vader. Obi-Wan COULD NOT beat Vader.
How much simpler can it get?

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
This thread is bullshit. Luke BEAT Vader. Obi-Wan COULD NOT beat Vader.
How much simpler can it get?

Er, for starters Obiwan willingly sacrificed himself by putting his saber up and let Vader strike him,so while I doubt ANH Obiwan could kill Vader at that point but the fight would have been longer. Vader was trying to kill Obiwan unlike vs Luke who would later admit that had Vader wanted to kill him, he would have killed Luke in rotj.

Source?

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Source?

"The Courtship of Princess Leia"

Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me . Who had Luke been kidding? Teneniel had been right, Luke was no warrior. Ben, Luke thought. I failed you. I've failed you all. And suddenly there was a wave of pain, and Luke tried to remember who he'd just been talking to, tried to think of a name, someone he could call for help, but his mind was numb, empty, like the vast deserts of Tatooine lying naked beneath setting suns.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
This thread is bullshit. Luke BEAT Vader. Obi-Wan COULD NOT beat Vader.
How much simpler can it get?

If this thread is so simple..

Why would you ****ing bump it?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
"The Courtship of Princess Leia"

Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me . Who had Luke been kidding? Teneniel had been right, Luke was no warrior. Ben, Luke thought. I failed you. I've failed you all. And suddenly there was a wave of pain, and Luke tried to remember who he'd just been talking to, tried to think of a name, someone he could call for help, but his mind was numb, empty, like the vast deserts of Tatooine lying naked beneath setting suns.

Fair enough. This doesn't change the fact Luke owned Vader and could have killed him. It's not like Vader didn't fight at all. He did his best to defend himself and failed.

Originally posted by Pyron_is_God
Fair enough. This doesn't change the fact Luke owned Vader and could have killed him. It's not like Vader didn't fight at all. He did his best to defend himself and failed.

That is debatable due to the fact that Vader wanted to turn Luke to the darkside and use him to help kill the emperor. And it is worth noting that Luke outdueled Vader while using the darkside due to Vader taunting Luke about turning Leia over to the darkside. So I doubt he would use that type of rage vs. obiwan. Though I will admit I'm not sure if Vader was going all out vs the enraged-darkside Luke or not.

OK its time to shut a few people up

1) There is NO CONSISTENT LOGICAL CORRELATION BETWEEN EXPERIENCE AND VICTORY. If experience= wins, then qui-gon would have beaten maul who was about half his age, and dooku would have beaten anakin who was about 1/3 his age.

2) Obi wan was out of shape.

so i render my verdict

Sabers: Luke, He has the strength and fitness and obi wan's soresu requires him to be in shape which he was in ROTS but not in ANH (look how he was holding his saber in ROTS then in ANH, even his arms and wrists got weaker)

Force ONLY: BEN, this is one time where experience counts, ben had more training in the force and could probably do to him what he did to grevious and thats toss him against the wall.

ALL out: Luke djem so requires him to close in on his opponent and then ben is toast

1. I say sabers is close. Kenobi seemed even with Vader, while Luke beat Vader, and although it is true that Vader wasn't going all-out offensively, there is no reason he would have been holding back defensively. If he had been using offense and defensive saber skills, though, it is possible that he would have been able to defeat Luke, plus Luke was using the dark side. So Ben might beat Luke in sabers. I'm not certain though, sabers is close.

2. As stated above, Vader would have pwnd ROTJ Luke if he had unleashed all his Force Powers on him. However, Vader clearly though Kenobi had a chance of withstanding his force powers, or else he would have used them on Kenobi. So Kenobi would probably own Luke with the Force. But, what could he do? Force-Push him? He's a Jedi and doesn't use offensive Force Powers, so...

3. Again, Vader would have pwnd Luke is he went all-out, but Vader was going all-out on Kenobi and Kenobi was fending him off quite well (they seemed fairly even). I say Kenobi takes this comfortably.

Originally posted by darthsith19
However, Vader clearly though Kenobi had a chance of withstanding his force powers, or else he would have used them on Kenobi

speculation?

Originally posted by Man of Christ
speculation?
Why's that? There's no other reason that Vader wouldn't have used the Force once Kenobi proved pretty even with a blade.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Why's that? There's no other reason that Vader wouldn't have used the Force once Kenobi proved pretty even with a blade.

i could just as easily speculate that. vader remebers being cut down with obi wan's blade in rots and that nothing short of cutting obi wan down with his blade will satisfy vader's blood lust and thirst for revenge.

Vader seems pretty calm during their duel. When he talks to Obi-Wan, he isn't shouting or sounding bloodthirsty. "Now I am the Master". Surely a master would use Force Powers to win if need be, and seriously I doubt Vader gave a flying f*ck how Kenobi died, just that he did die.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Vader seems pretty calm during their duel. When he talks to Obi-Wan, he isn't shouting or sounding bloodthirsty. "Now I am the Master". Surely a master would use Force Powers to win if need be, and seriously I doubt Vader gave a flying f*ck how Kenobi died, just that he did die.

as a sith, vader has a variety of options and ways to kill a person.
he could have choked ben out (which only yakes ader about 5-10 seconds), but chose to take the long way and duel him, which is worth being noted. vader walked up to ben with the saber already out, so it was obvious that he only wanted to slice him up as obi wan had sliced him.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
as a sith, vader has a variety of options and ways to kill a person.
he could have choked ben out (which only yakes ader about 5-10 seconds), but chose to take the long way and duel him, which is worth being noted. vader walked up to ben with the saber already out, so it was obvious that he only wanted to slice him up as obi wan had sliced him.
No, Ozzel lasted much longer than 5-10 seconds. I can't remember how long it was but it was closer to 30 seconds if I remember correctly. ANd in ANH the guy he choked he is choking for over 10 seconds and he doesn't even die.

Having your lightsaber drawn is only natural, in most fights lightsabers are drawn. But that doesn't mean he wanted to slice him up, he just wanted to kill him. Simple as that, Vader wanted Kenobi dead, and he used his lightsaber because he thought he would have a better chance with it than he would with the Force. If you want somebody to be dead, it doesn't matter how they die. Dead is dead, and if using the Force would have been more efficient that using a saber, Vader would have used the Force. But he obviously though that Kenobi could handle his Force attacks better than he could handle his saber.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Vader would have used the Force. But he obviously though that Kenobi could handle his Force attacks better than he could handle his saber.


Is that stated anywhere in the script or novel?

It doesn't need to be. It's common sense. Vader wants Kenobi to be dead. Fact. Dead at the hands of a lightsbaer or died by use of the Force is still dead. Fact. And it's human nature to do things the easiest way possible (fact), so if killing Kenobi with the Force would have been easier than killing him with a lightsaber, Vader would have used the Force. Due to the other things being facts, this is also a fact.

Originally posted by darthsith19
It doesn't need to be. It's common sense. Vader wants Kenobi to be dead. Fact. Dead at the hands of a lightsbaer or died by use of the Force is still dead. Fact. And it's human nature to do things the easiest way possible (fact), so if killing Kenobi with the Force would have been easier than killing him with a lightsaber, Vader would have used the Force. Due to the other things being facts, this is also a fact.

being a human doesnt always mean desire to take path of least resistance heres an example

fact: obi wan could have taken anakin with him to kill grevious
but chose to go alone

Originally posted by Man of Christ
being a human doesnt always mean desire to take path of least resistance heres an example

fact: obi wan could have taken anakin with him to kill grevious
but chose to go alone

Actually, if I remember, didn't the Council order Obi-Wan to go instead of Anakin, due to his (then) current assignment of espionage against Supreme Chancellor Palpatine?

Yup. Obi-Wan didn't have a choice, the Council ordered him to go. And they didn't order anybody else to go along. Humans take the easy path when trying to accomplish something.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yup. Obi-Wan didn't have a choice, the Council ordered him to go. And they didn't order anybody else to go along. Humans take the easy path when trying to accomplish something.

ok i concede that example
but another one

luke could have submitted to paplpaitne and spared himself an electrocution but chose to stay on the lightside

Originally posted by darthsith19
No, Ozzel lasted much longer than 5-10 seconds. I can't remember how long it was but it was closer to 30 seconds if I remember correctly. ANd in ANH the guy he choked he is choking for over 10 seconds and he doesn't even die. Uh thats because most of vaders attention was talking to the other captain and not on solely on ozzel himself or ozzel would have died instantly, had he actually wanted to instantly kille ozzel he would have done so. Judging from vaders tone he wanted ozzel to suffer then die hence it took so long.

Now proof he could kill him instantly? Read one of the comics and vader breaks the necks of 10 wild dogs while suspending them in the air.

And the fella he choked in ANH was to teach him a lesson.
Originally posted by darthsith19

Dead is dead, and if using the Force would have been more efficient that using a saber, Vader would have used the Force. But he obviously though that Kenobi could handle his Force attacks better than he could handle his saber. I can simply argue that vader simply chose to engage ben in a saber duel.

Thats like saying "And if using the force would have been more efficient(which would always be in sidious case), sidious would have used the force against mace right at the start of the Duel"

Or the same can apply when we take DE luke vs DE palpatine.

DS, its just the way some things are, they CHOSE to engage in a duel.

So are you telling me luke in DE can deflect all of sidious attacks as you are implying that ben could do to vader when you have nothing to support your argument?

Prove that talking to the captain had any effect on the length of the Force Choke. Yes his tone suggests that he wanted Ozzel to suffer, hence why he chose Force Choke to kill him with in the first place, because Force Choke naturally makes the victim suffer.


Was that Force Choke? To me it looked more like snapping animals necks using telekinesis, not Force Choke.


You neglect the fact that at the start of the duel, Mace was not alone, but was being accompanied by 3 other Jedi Masters. Sidious thought confronting them in saber combat was his best move and seeing as he killed the other 3 Jedi in 7 seconds, I'd say his move worked out just fine.


De Luke and Palpatine. Forgive me, as I haven't read DE for a while, but Luke and Palpatine fought earlier in the comic, and Palpatine gave Luke a thrashing in saber combat (in the room with the Clones). Well he trashed him then, so at the end he assumed he could do so again. When he failed to beta Luke in saber combat he did use the Force to try and destroy the fleet, but combined Luke and Leia were again able to stop him. Sidious was a raving lunatic at that point, though, and did he engage Luke in lightsaber combat, or did Luke engage him in saber combat?


Human nature it to do things the easiest way possible. It's all psychology. Ask a physiologist if you don't believe me. Input over output.


Originally posted by Man of Christ
ok i concede that example
but another one

luke could have submitted to paplpaitne and spared himself an electrocution but chose to stay on the lightside
However, Luke's goal wasn't to turn to the dark side. His goal was to remain a Jedi and, if possible, defeat the Emperor at the same time. He thought the easiest way to do that was to toss his lightsaber aside so he wouldn't be tempted to use the dark side anymore.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Prove that talking
Always with the "Prove this! Prove that!" When you have yet to offer up any proof of your own.
Originally posted by darthsith19


to the captain had any effect on the length of the Force Choke.
Sigh, because vader was focusing his attention on the other captain and not completely on ozzel? The very fact that if he focused all his attention on ozzel he would have died?

How about i explain a metaphor and hopefully you will understand .

Anyways i'm trying to saw a piece of wood and i focus all my attention to my friend while cutting the piece of wood and therefore would i cut it apart as fast as i would if my attention is focused on it?

Simple answer: Hell no.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Yes his tone suggests that he wanted Ozzel to suffer,
Exactly! Which is why vader didn't instantly kill him with force choke. You want a better explanation? Then peer down a few quotes.
Originally posted by darthsith19

hence why he chose Force Choke to kill him with in the first place, because Force Choke naturally makes the victim suffer.
Uh and who says a force choke can't kill a victim instantly? Just tighten the force grip.
Originally posted by darthsith19

Was that Force Choke? To me it looked more like snapping animals necks using telekinesis, not Force Choke. Uh to you that is, you also seem to fail to realise that force choke, push , pull all derive from telekenesis so what you saw was very well a force choke.

Force choke is a telekenetical attack, it does not manifest itself like lightning,drain or any other fancy force powers.

Now i'm going to bet you will ask me "Blah blah blah prove that it is a TK attack". Then i'll ask you, if its not under the TK category, what kind of attack is it?

Your basically using TK to choke an opponent, crush an opponent, push him pull her or simply grab something.

Now i hate to use wookiepedia as something to back up my claims but in this case i have no other choice as i do not have the dark side source book or the essential guide to the force.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_choke

Just read it.

Originally posted by darthsith19

You neglect the fact that at the start of the duel, Mace was not alone, but was being accompanied by 3 other Jedi Masters. Sidious thought confronting them in saber combat was his best move and seeing as he killed the other 3 Jedi in 7 seconds, I'd say his move worked out just fine. Then this further backs my point, with 4 council members it is still ineffecient to use the force with all 4 of them combined(with one whom could grip and levitate hundred of tons of rock)hence they chose to engage him in a duel?

You have got to be joking me.

Originally posted by darthsith19

De Luke and Palpatine. Forgive me, as I haven't read DE for a while, but Luke and Palpatine fought earlier in the comic, and Palpatine gave Luke a thrashing in saber combat (in the room with the Clones). Well he trashed him then, so at the end he assumed he could do so again. When he failed to beta Luke in saber combat he did use the Force to try and destroy the fleet, but combined Luke and Leia were again able to stop him. Sidious was a raving lunatic at that point, though, and did he engage Luke in lightsaber combat, or did Luke engage him in saber combat? Uh and before the duel in the clone room started, palpatine had ample time to unleash devastating force attacks pal, but it seems that he chose to to pick up a lightsaber and duel him.

And regarding your question of who started the duel, it was palpatine onboard the eclipse when he charged at luke and he very well knows that luke is under the influence of BM yet he still chose to duel him when the fact remains that had he used devastating force attacks in the beginning, he would have annihilated luke.



Originally posted by darthsith19

Human nature it to do things the easiest way possible. It's all psychology. Ask a physiologist if you don't believe me. Input over output.
The i guessed you never heard of plot induced stupidity. Or maybe you forgot that vader was confident enough to beat obiwan in a saber duel seeing that he lost the last time.

Bad analogy. If somebody's airflow if being cut-off then their air-flow is being cut off. Judging by Vader's cool tone and relaxed position in that scene, he wasn't trying very hard even.



If it could kill instantly, why didn't Kenobi die instantly when Dooku used Force Choke on him in ROTS? Force Choke cuts off the victim's windpipe. Cutting off someone's windpipe would not kill them instantly.




I honestly wasn't going to use Wookieepedia as a source, but since you did, I will, too:

In the same page you posted the link to, under Force Choke:

"It caused immobilization and choking, which with prolonged focus, could lead to death."

Hence, it cannot kill somebody instantly.



Wrong again. They did not chose to engage him in a lightsaber duel. They came to arrest him. They were prepared for a fight if need be but their intent wasn't to fight him, it was to arrest him. Palpatine made the first move, and he made it with his lightsaber. Once Palpatine attacked he moved so quickly that 2 Jeid were down before they could even react, so there's no way they could have attacked him with the Force quick enough even if they'd tried.


I can't remember when exactly Palpatine got a lightsaber, but I remember Luke Force Pushed Sidious first, since Sidious first, and did Palpatine get his lightsaber after that? If so, Luke had already breached his defenses with the Force so he may have decided that a lightsaber duel was his best option. Also remember that at that time he did not wish to kill Luke, and perhaps any Force Power of Sidious's strong enough to breach Luke's defenses would have harmed Luke more than Sidious wished to. But like I said, I can't remember DE that well, how did Sidious win in the end of their first duel? Did he disarm Luke?



Why would Vader losing the first time make him confident? ANd Plot Induced Stupidity is not an excuse. If you want to you can just say it was Plot Induced Stupidity and leave this debate but there's no proof that it was Plot Induced Stupidity, and I don't have to prove a negative so don't ask me to.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Bad analogy. If somebody's airflow if being cut-off then their air-flow is being cut off. Judging by Vader's cool tone and relaxed position in that scene, he wasn't trying very hard even.
And that is exactly my whole point which you have failed to realised,

Originally posted by darthsith19

If it could kill instantly,
I said it could if the user wishes it.

Originally posted by darthsith19

why didn't Kenobi die instantly when Dooku used Force Choke on him in ROTS? Force Choke cuts off the victim's windpipe. Cutting off someone's windpipe would not kill them instantly.
But pressing hard enough would break it. Oh and kenobi simply was getting kenobi out of the way.

If you use force choke or force grip, the harder you press the more damage you do and when you decide to press very hard, it would break your neck. Don't tell me i can't kill anybody when i grab their neck and press it with tremendous force(enough to break their neck instantly) which vader is very capable of doing with the force as he demonstrated in one of the comics.


Originally posted by darthsith19

I honestly wasn't going to use Wookieepedia as a source, but since you did, I will, too:
No problem.

Originally posted by darthsith19

In the same page you posted the link to, under Force Choke:

"It caused immobilization and choking, which with prolonged focus, could lead to death."

Hence, it cannot kill somebody instantly. Apparantly all you have to do is read my analogy above. It merely said with prolonged focus, could lead to death", it never said that the opponent can't be killed instantly.



Originally posted by darthsith19

Wrong again.
They came to arrest him. They were prepared for a fight if need be but their intent wasn't to fight him, it was to arrest him. Palpatine made the first move, and he made it with his lightsaber. Once Palpatine attacked he moved so quickly that 2 Jeid were down before they could even react, so there's no way they could have attacked him with the Force quick enough even if they'd tried. Ill drop this point.

Originally posted by darthsith19

I can't remember when exactly Palpatine got a lightsaber, but I remember Luke Force Pushed Sidious first, since Sidious first, and did Palpatine get his lightsaber after that? If so, Luke had already breached his defenses with the Force so he may have decided that a lightsaber duel was his best option.
Who or what the f*ck ever stated that if you get force pushed it breaches your force defence?

Again palpatine STILL could overpower luke with the force yet he decided to engage him in a saber duel. But it does not matter, well for that part anyway as palpatine was merely trying to restrain luke and bring him back to his side. So lets drop this one and move on to the next.
Originally posted by darthsith19

Also remember that at that time he did not wish to kill Luke, and perhaps any Force Power of Sidious's strong enough to breach Luke's defenses would have harmed Luke more than Sidious wished to. But like I said, I can't remember DE that well, how did Sidious win in the end of their first duel? Did he disarm Luke?
Yes he did.

But i'm talking about the later duel when leia was involved.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Why would Vader losing the first time make him confident?
Did i say that? Anyways i misinterpreted it, i was trying to say that vader was confident that he can beat ben this time in a saber duel because he has improved on his saber skills since the time he lost.
Originally posted by darthsith19

ANd Plot Induced Stupidity is not an excuse.
It's a fact, it was written that way pal. It was written by the write that vader drew his saber.

Originally posted by darthsith19

If you want to you can just say it was Plot Induced Stupidity and leave this debate but there's no proof that it was Plot Induced Stupidity,
And you mean there no proof that the ANH duel was written the way it was? The very fact that the director wanted the duel to turn out that way? What the **** are you talking about?

Originally posted by darthsith19

and I don't have to prove a negative so don't ask me to. Never did as you always ask for proof

How is that your point? Your point was "Vader was distratced by talking to the other guy." but judging from the tone of his voice, and the cool relaxed position in which he was sitting he wasn't distracted or trying hard at all. And that was NOT your point.




You have yet to prove that. Dooku's instructions were to kill Kenobi, if he could have killed him instantly with it why would he choose not to? Wookieepedia also says that it takes a prolnged amount of time to kill somebody with Force Choke.


"Kenobi was getting Kenobi out of the way"? Lol. And why the f*ck would Dooku want to NOT kill Kenobi?



Which comic was this? And don't say the one where he snaps the animals necks because you've yet to prove that Force Choke was the ability he used on them. Wookieepedia says that it takes "prolonged focus" to kill an opponent with Force Choke. Vader might be able to break their necks with another telekinesis move, but not Choke because it takes "prolonged focus" to kill somebody with FC.


Prolonged: To lengthen in duration: To lengthen in extentmeant to get Force Pushed then it is only logical that it breaches ones defense. Whenever anyone attacks you and you get hit with something, it broke your defense, unless you simply were not trying to defend yourself, which would be stupid.


Yeah you did say that.




What makes you think he improved his lightsaber skills? In ROTS he was able to trash Dooku in a lightsaber duel, and at the time of ANH he was bested by Darth Maul (the Clone) in a lightsaber duel and ROTJ Luke was able to breach his defenses. I seriously doubt OT Vader is superior to PT Vader with a lightsaber. In Shadows of the Emperor, vader even comments that he hopes to be what he once was physically.




"It was written by the write" what? In English please. I can't understand what you're even saying here, but it sounds like you're saying that Lucas meant it to be Plot Induced Stupidity when he wrote it.



Yes, Lucas wanted it to be that way, but that doesn't change the in-universe explanation of what happened. By that logic I could say "Grievous is stronger than Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan only won because that's the way Lucas wanted it to be."


Because you always say things without backing yourself up.f

Originally posted by darthsith19
How is that your point? Your point was "Vader was distratced by talking to the other guy." but judging from the tone of his voice, and the cool relaxed position in which he was sitting he wasn't distracted or trying hard at all. And that was NOT your point.
Do you actually know how to read? This was my point all along, the one that you just had mentioned


Exactly! Which is why vader didn't instantly kill him with force choke.

^ This basically meant another way of saying vader wasn't trying very hard, this also meant that vader didn't want to instantly killed him.

This is what you just said Bad analogy. If somebody's airflow if being cut-off then their air-flow is being cut off. Judging by Vader's cool tone and relaxed position in that scene, he wasn't trying very hard even

Again did i say vader was distracted by the other captain? I said he was focusing his attention on that captain and not completely on ozzel which would also hint out the fact that he wasn't trying to kill ozzel instantly nor "try hard enough".

Anyways it wouldn't matter as vader applied force choke, not force grip or force crush.

Seriously DS learn to read and learn to interpret things for once.


Originally posted by darthsith19

You have yet to prove that.
You have yet to prove anything in any debate we or anyone else engage in with you.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Dooku's instructions were to kill Kenobi, if he could have killed him instantly with it why would he choose not to?
Lets see, Thats simply because it wasn't a force choke as it seems to turn out to be:

A crushing application of the Force, Force Grip was an advanced level of Force Choke and could be used to levitate and strangle a target's internal organs. However, the primary purpose was to immobilise or control a target's movement and choking the target to death could be secondary. The target could be seized with great strength and subsequently lifted off their feet and suspended in the air by a powerful user.

^Which perfectly explains why dooku didn't just kill obiwan on the spot due to the nature of this attack.

Oh and read this Other Force-users known to have used this power included Count Dooku, who used it on Obi-Wan Kenobi when Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker boarded Grievous's ship to rescue Supreme Chancellor Palpatine

Now will you shut the hell up DS?
Originally posted by darthsith19

Wookieepedia also says that it takes a prolnged amount of time to kill somebody with Force Choke. Ok, dooku was using grip according to wookiepedia(which i was reluctant to use as the novel states something completely different such as dooku only using tk to send obi wan flying away).

Originally posted by darthsith19

"Kenobi was getting Kenobi out of the way"? Lol. And why the f*ck would Dooku want to NOT kill Kenobi?
See the above.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Which comic was this? And don't say the one where he snaps the animals necks because you've yet to prove that Force Choke was the ability he used on them. Wookieepedia says that it takes "prolonged focus" to kill an opponent with Force Choke. Vader might be able to break their necks with another telekinesis move, but not Choke because it takes "prolonged focus" to kill somebody with FC.
Ok well thanks to wookiepedia it appears now that it is a force grip or even a force crush seeing that how quickly he killed his opponents.
Originally posted by darthsith19

Prolonged: To lengthen in duration: To lengthen in extent Ok well i concur to that.



Originally posted by darthsith19

Unless you meant to get Force Pushed then it is only logical that it breaches ones defense. Whenever anyone attacks you and you get hit with something, it broke your defense, unless you simply were not trying to defend yourself, which would be stupid. Can you actually prove that? Wow so i guess sidious force defence got breached in ROTS, yet we don't see yoda trying to use TK to snap sidious neck.

You seem to forget that at those instances they were caught by surprise or got caught off guard which would explain their reaction.

Oh? And force defences breached when you get pushed or hit by any force attack? Its funny how yoda gets hit by lightning at first, and then when sidious does it the second time he can put up a defence despite sidious "breaking his force defence".

Again i don't see how this is relevant when sidious could have just annihilated luke with the force in the final duel when he chose to engage him in a saber duel. Again sidious was the one who struck first.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Yeah you did say that. And i really hope you are intelligent enough to read the words in italics and bold "Anyways i misinterpreted it, i was trying to say that vader was confident that he can beat ben this time in a saber duel because he has improved on his saber skills since the time he lost.

Dumbass.



Originally posted by darthsith19

What makes you think he improved his lightsaber skills? In ROTS he was able to trash Dooku in a lightsaber duel, and at the time of ANH he was bested by Darth Maul (the Clone) in a lightsaber duel and ROTJ Luke was able to breach his defenses. I seriously doubt OT Vader is superior to PT Vader with a lightsaber. In Shadows of the Emperor, vader even comments that he hopes to be what he once was physically. Firstly you cannot possibly be that stupid, wheres your logic darth sith?

Vaders skills were affected when he got into his suit and when his injuries were sustained which is why he appeared so clumsy against bol chatak in RODV.

I was saying that he OBVIOUSLY improved his skills from then on seeing that he could slaughter an entire platoon of storm troopers right before the officer incharge could even RUN to the door, or that he used TK to grab his lightsaber and kill 4-6 stormtroopers in one swipe.



Originally posted by darthsith19

"It was written by the write" what? In English please. I can't understand what you're even saying here, but it sounds like you're saying that Lucas meant it to be Plot Induced Stupidity when he wrote it. I guess you don't know how to identify a typo DS considering your level of stubbornness and ignorance. I meant to type "script writer".

But hey its a fact, it was written that they would get into a duel.


Originally posted by darthsith19

Yes, Lucas wanted it to be that way, but that doesn't change the in-universe explanation of what happened. By that logic I could say "Grievous is stronger than Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan only won because that's the way Lucas wanted it to be." The only thing is lucas DID want it that way, and the fact that common sense already explained to us that obiwan is indeed the better duelist that GG.

And the ultimate visual guide already stated that vader was confident enough to beat obiwan, so i guess you are going to ask "Ohhhh y didnt v@d#r u$3 t3h f@rce !!!!!1!11!oneoneone!!one"

Again maybe its due to the fact that he CHOSE to engage ben in a duel?

Originally posted by darthsith19

Because you always say things without backing yourself up.f No, i always list down quotes, sources and stuff and you would come up with ridiculous and absurd claims to try to downplay those quotes. Just look back at our little debate involving ulic qel dromo or vos vs vader.

Dude seriously read more carefully. Your point was that Vader was distracted when he was choking Ozzel, because he was talking to Piett. My point was (a direct quote here): "judging from the tone of his voice, and the cool relaxed position in which he was sitting he wasn't distracted or trying hard at all."

You said he was distracted, I said he wasn't, and somehow that's your point? Dude you need to make up your mind: was Vader distracted or not?




Exactly! He used Force Choke so he could make Ozzel suffer, talking to the other guy had no effect on how long it took Ozzel to die, because, like you said, "Vader wasn't distracted".



Are you blind, or just stupid? I prooved that Force Choke ca't kill somebody instantly:










There is your proof that Force Choke can not instantly kill somebody, proof that I, supposedly, did not post. You are claiming that it can instantly kill somebody "if the user wishes it." and you have yet to prove that, or prove that my proof is faulty. The burden to supply proof is on you, not me.










No, you're right. It was Force Grip, which is even more lethal than Force Choke. And it still didn't kill him! Grip is the same as Choke except the user can crush other parts of the victim as well.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/0/06/Dooku_Obi-wan_choke.JPG


Obi-Wan has his hand on his throat, making it clear that Dooku is choking him as well as picking up his body with the Force. if he could have killed him right then, why didn't he?



Yes, that is the main purpose, because Force Grip/Choke cannot instantly kill somebody! If Force Grip could instantly kill somebody, it wouldn't need to be used to immobilize the vitcim; if Dooku could have instantly killed Kenobi, he wouldn't have need to immobilize him. Anf if Vader could have instantly killed Kenobi with Force Choke in ANH, he would have.



Read again:



That has absolutely NOTHING to do with Count Dooku.




Read what you just said. you just said that "force grip or force crush" can quickly kill opponents. You also said that Dooku used force grip on Kenobi in ROTS, but that it couldn't quickly kill opponents. Contradiction much? Which one is it?



Good, that makes about the first half of your post irrelevant (to bad I didn't read this before responding to all of it).









Why do I need to prove something that should be common sense? Okay then smart guy, lets say in DE Luke did NOT breach Sidious's defense. Why did Sidious get Force pushed, then?




That's possible. But whatever we are not discussing Luke and Sidious's first duel anymore, because Sidious didn't want to kill Luke, right?



You're calling me the dumbass, when you did say that? You said it, I pointed it out to you, and you call me a dumbass. It doesn't matter if you "misinterpreted it", you still said it, then said you didn't say it, and I pointed it out to you. So stfu and quite calling people "dumbass" for pointing you out.




Agreed.



No, that's not what you were saying. To quote you exactly (pay careful attention to the parts in bold, I took the special liberty of adding bold for your benefit):



As you can see (assuming you know how to read), you said he improved his saber skills since his last duel with Kenobi, NOT since he got into his suit. In your own words: you cannot possibly be that stupid.




If you wish to make a thread titles "who's more ignorant, Ivalive or darthsith19", then do so, otherwise, stfu with the insults. They only make you look mad, and don't make you seem any intelligent, nor do they help you in your debate.







Yes, and it was written that Sidious slaughter Agen, Saesee and Kit in a few seconds, but you don't hear me saying "they only went down so quickly because Lucas wrote it that way" and try to use it as an excuse, do you? "It happened because Lucas wrote it that way" is NOT a sufficient in-universe explanation.



It's funny that we've been debating for all this time, and only NOW you bring that up. Quote, please. And, Vader was confident that he could beat Kenobi, if he didn't think he could beat Kenobi, he wouldn't have confronted him.



http://www.shoalhaven.net.au/~suep/tom/PIX/your%20gay.JPG

Darth sith, i have been trying my best to be as nice as possible but so far you had just made yourself looked like the stupidest person in this forums and has irritated the hell out of me by not even trying to comprehend my texts. Allow me to this time for real destroy your posts.


Originally posted by darthsith19
Dude seriously read more carefully. Your point was that Vader was distracted when he was choking Ozzel, because he was talking to Piett.
Dude, seriously start using your brains, how does not focusing on ozzel = to vader being distracted? Seriously DS, how stupid can you be?

Sigh, because vader was focusing his attention on the other captain and not completely on ozzel? The very fact that if he focused all his attention on ozzel he would have died?


In that passage above WHERE did i say vader is distracted? How does focusing on another subject when you simply chose it that way equate to distraction?



You just made yourself look like the most idiotic forum member whom always argues when his posts gets refuted, how i still laugh when you think you could even engage advent in a debate and the end result is getting your ass handed to you.
Originally posted by darthsith19

My point was (a direct quote here): "judging from the tone of his voice, and the cool relaxed position in which he was sitting he wasn't distracted or trying hard at all." Basically dumb shit, my original claim(which you were overly fond of derailing into something else) was that force choke could kill somebody instantly, which i had conceded considering the fact that i found something else to substantiate my claims.
Originally posted by darthsith19

You said he was distracted, I said he wasn't, and somehow that's your point? Dude you need to make up your mind: was Vader distracted or not? I said he was focusing on someone else when he chose to, you said i said he was distracted, my point all along other than choke could kill some one instantly was that vader was not focusing all his force power and reserves on ozzel which would also mean he wasn't trying to kill ozzel quickly.



Originally posted by darthsith19

Exactly! He used Force Choke so he could make Ozzel suffer, talking to the other guy had no effect on how long it took Ozzel to die, because, like you said, "Vader wasn't distracted". Ok.


Originally posted by darthsith19

Are you blind, or just stupid? I prooved that Force Choke ca't kill somebody instantly: Correct, and after how many debates? And after how many prompts for you to shut up and actually prove something?









Originally posted by darthsith19

There is your proof that Force Choke can not instantly kill somebody, proof that I, supposedly, did not post. You are claiming that it can instantly kill somebody "if the user wishes it." and you have yet to prove that, or prove that my proof is faulty. The burden to supply proof is on you, not me. Apparantly your stupidity is truly phenomenal and incredible. Did you happen to read this? Ok well i concur to that.?

After you posted this? Prolonged: To lengthen in duration: To lengthen in extent

See how stupid you are DS?










Originally posted by darthsith19

No, you're right. It was Force Grip, which is even more lethal than Force Choke. And it still didn't kill him! Grip is the same as Choke except the user can crush other parts of the victim as well.
It seems your stupidity is impossible to behold. Do you actually know how to read friend?

You DO know force choke and force grip are different techniques with similar properties? Wookiepedia which you are so fond of using says this :

Force choke It caused immobilization and choking, which with prolonged focus, could lead to death. The area affected was typically the target's neck. The target was not lifted or moved about. The reason why Sith masters usually used it instead of Grip, is when they need to just punish, threaten, or scare their target, without wanting to cause death. Possibly the most notable display of this ability was by Darth Vader in the Death Star. Admiral Conan Antonio Motti expressed his feelings concerning the Dark Lord's "sorcerer's ways," to which Vader replied with a Force Choke to his throat, saying "I find your lack of faith disturbing." Those most experienced with Force Choke needed only a live visual of their victim in order to perform the technique. Darth Vader demonstrated this by choking Admiral Kendal Ozzel over a viewscreen, even though the admiral was on the bridge at the time. Darth Vader was in fact one of the most infamous users of this Force technique, often choking those whose "lack of faith was disturbing" or who had failed him, in a clear and powerful demonstration of the Force to any non-believers in view of the grim display. Other Force-users known to have used this power included Darth Revan, who was seen choking a Republic Soldier who boarded his flagship. Although users of the dark side reveled in using the power, especially for humiliation, this power was used by the light side as well. One of the most famous Jedi to use Force Choke after the Great Jedi Purge was Luke Skywalker who used it against Gamorrean guards in the process of gaining entrance to Jabba's Palace. Luke also used it in on one of the Nightsisters. In both instances, he used his ability to disable his opponent, not to kill them. In 40 ABY, Jacen Solo used this technique against a female Hapan officer who questioned his authority to chastise her. The officer survived

force grip A crushing application of the Force, Force Grip was an advanced level of Force Choke and could be used to levitate and strangle a target's internal organs. However, the primary purpose was to immobilise or control a target's movement and choking the target to death could be secondary. The target could be seized with great strength and subsequently lifted off their feet and suspended in the air by a powerful user.

Please if you still have any intelligence left in you READ the words highlighted in bold.

Now i will as you since you think you are such a great debater and smart ass. What technique did vader apply to the ten creatures them? What technique? I don't see any possible technique other than these :

Force choke
Force grip
Force crush




Originally posted by darthsith19

Obi-Wan has his hand on his throat, making it clear that Dooku is choking him as well as picking up his body with the Force. if he could have killed him right then, why didn't he?
force grip A crushing application of the Force, Force Grip was an advanced level of Force Choke and could be used to levitate and strangle a target's internal organs. However, the primary purpose was to immobilise or control a target's movement and choking the target to death could be secondary. The target could be seized with great strength and subsequently lifted off their feet and suspended in the air by a powerful user. Read the words in bold.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Yes, that is the main purpose, because Force Grip/Choke cannot instantly kill somebody! If Force Grip could instantly kill somebody, it wouldn't need to be used to immobilize the vitcim; if Dooku could have instantly killed Kenobi, he wouldn't have need to immobilize him. Anf if Vader could have instantly killed Kenobi with Force Choke in ANH, he would have.
Then what is the technique called if i reach out with the force and break your neck? Then why the hell was vader able to instantly kill his victims with that or similar techniques? Why the hell have you not answer this DS since you think your so smart?

Again it is not the technique alone which can quickly or instantly kill its victims, it also depends on the users strength in the force.

I recall darth zannah as an untrained child instantly breaking the necks of two jedis with the force

Oh and who said force grip can't quickly kill a victim? What happens if you apply more pressure? Wouldn't it crush your windpipe? Its the same thing, what happens if i strangle a person, and what happens if i squeeze harder? Would his neck NOT break?

So again who says grip or choke can't kill a victim quickly?

I recall 2 gammorean guards in ROTJ knocked out and immobalised SECONDS after ROTJ luke chokes them whom at that time is STILL significantly weaker than vader in the force.




Originally posted by darthsith19

Read again: Read again : I concur to that = i agree to that = i conceded that.

Originally posted by darthsith19

No, that's not what you were saying. To quote you exactly (pay careful attention to the parts in bold, I took the special liberty of adding bold for your benefit): Again your idiot i said i MISINTERPRETED IT meaning it was NOT the claim i was trying to make in the first place, why are you so persistant of wanting to look so stupid infront of everybody?


Originally posted by darthsith19

As you can see (assuming you know how to read), you said he improved his saber skills since his last duel with Kenobi, NOT since he got into his suit. In your own words: you cannot possibly be that stupid. Again you dumbfcuk why are you so stupid? Why the hell can't you accept that i stated i misinterpreted what i was trying to say? Which would also mean that that was NOT the claim i was trying to make in the first place?

In my own words: You ARE that stupid.



Originally posted by darthsith19

If you wish to make a thread titles "who's more ignorant, Ivalive or darthsith19", then do so, otherwise, stfu with the insults. They only make you look mad, and don't make you seem any intelligent, nor do they help you in your debate. Hey, says the hypocrite who hurls back lame ass insults such as "Your gay!".

Now: http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5213/stfumd5.jpg






Originally posted by darthsith19

Yes, and it was written that Sidious slaughter Agen, Saesee and Kit in a few seconds, but you don't hear me saying "they only went down so quickly because Lucas wrote it that way" and try to use it as an excuse, do you? "It happened because Lucas wrote it that way" is NOT a sufficient in-universe explanation. Ok fine, but how exactly does that discredit the fact that vader didn't want to engage ben in a force fight but both of them CHOSE to engage in a saber duel without the aid of force attacks? You have yet to say anything DS.



Originally posted by darthsith19

It's funny that we've been debating for all this time, and only NOW you bring that up. Quote, please. And, Vader was confident that he could beat Kenobi, if he didn't think he could beat Kenobi, he wouldn't have confronted him.
Thinking about it it does not really matter now doesn't it?

Originally posted by darthsith19

Why do I need to prove something that should be common sense? Okay then smart guy, lets say in DE Luke did NOT breach Sidious's defense. Why did Sidious get Force pushed, then? LOL because he was caught off guard? Because he was caught by surprise? Considering the fact that his actions was rambling at luke about how luke couldnt stop him?



Originally posted by darthsith19

That's possible. But whatever we are not discussing Luke and Sidious's first duel anymore, because Sidious didn't want to kill Luke, right? Wrong, sidious was going to kill luke in their final duel on the eclipse.

Originally posted by darthsith19


You're calling me the dumbass, when you did say that? You said it, I pointed it out to you, and you call me a dumbass. It doesn't matter if you "misinterpreted it", you still said it, then said you didn't say it, and I pointed it out to you. So stfu and quite calling people "dumbass" for pointing you out.misinterpreted it also meant that i stated it wrongly you idiot.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Read what you just said. you just said that "force grip or force crush" can quickly kill opponents. You also said that Dooku used force grip on Kenobi in ROTS, but that it couldn't quickly kill opponents. Contradiction much? Which one is it? Quickly and instantly are a world of difference darth shit, my original claim was force grip or choke can instantly kill a victim, now i conceded that and changed it to "quickly" which is very capable of.

Oh and force crush CAN quickly kill opponents, seeing that it may be possible that the attack vader exerted on those creatures could be force crush which they died instantly or the fact that vader applied force crush and instantly crushed a head inside a chest.


Originally posted by darthsith19

Good, that makes about the first half of your post irrelevant (to bad I didn't read this before responding to all of it). Then maybe you should have shut up and erased it.

Go ahead and argue somemore darth sith, i'd love to engage in a debate with you, EXPECIALLY broken records. Go ahead, reply, i'm not ready to give up.

Hey that still leaves me one up on you. Oh, and how many times have you said "I concede" so far in this debate? I've seen it a few times already.




Again, make the thread whenever you want to. You said something, then tried to say you didn't say it. Misinterpretation or not, you did say it, which makes you the foolish one (not for misinterpreting it, that is just an understandable mistake, but denying ever saying it when you did is dumb). If I said "You're a dumb f*ck." and later said "I misinterpreted it." it wouldn't mean that I never said it.



SO now that's TWO things that you misinterpreted, at this rate you will have misinterpreted your entire argument by the end of the week, and somehow I'm the stupid one?



Wow dude, is your entire post going to be insults? Is that the level you stoop to when someone bests you in a debate? Oh, and as far as insults go, you post about 4 times as many as I do. If you had only posted a couple insults it wouldn't have even been worth mentioning, but since about 1 out of 3 of your "rebuttals" includes an insult, it really drags down your appearance and makes you look dumb. And that's not an insult, it's the truth.



It doesn't discredit it. Do you remember even remember what we initially started debating about? If you do, you just proved my point. Vader didn't want to engage ben in a force fight but chose to engage him in a saber duel, which proves my initial point; that Vader thought his chances would be better with a saber than with the Force. That was my initial point, and if Vader though he would have a better chance with the Force, he would have used it. It is human nature to get things done the easiest way possible. This shows us how good ANH Kenobi's Force Powers are and shows that he would beat ROTJ Luke in a Force or all-out fight, which is what this thread is really about, in case you forgot.


And that's the entire point I was trying to make in my initial post after this thread got bumped.




WTF kind of rebuttal is that? If you don't have to say to something I posted, don't quote it.



Like I said "That's possible."




Can you read? I said:



I was talking about the first duel, not the second duel.



You still said it. Again, if I called you a f*cking moron, and then later said that misinterpreted it, it wouldn't mean that I never called you a f*cking moron, would it.


Alright, how quickly is quickly? Are we talking 5 seconds, 30 seconds...?



Yes, Force Crush can quickly kill opponents, I agree and I never stated otherwise.



Nah, I already typed it out, might as well leave it there so that you have to go through it all.


What? You are calling me a broken record, yet you also say that you'd love to debate with me. So, you enjoy debating with broken records? lol. Keep 'em coming, then.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Again, make the thread whenever you want to. You said something, then tried to say you didn't say it. Misinterpretation or not, you did say it, which makes you the foolish one (not for misinterpreting it, that is just an understandable mistake, but denying ever saying it when you did is dumb). If I said "You're a dumb f*ck." and later said "I misinterpreted it." it wouldn't mean that I never said it.

Did i say that? Anyways i misinterpreted it, i was trying to say that vader was confident that he can beat ben this time in a saber duel because he has improved on his saber skills since the time he lost.

^ THAT was what i wanted to put in by it turned out that i put in something like this:

Or maybe you forgot that vader was confident enough to beat obiwan in a saber duel seeing that he lost the last time.

The whole reason of Did i say that? was because i didn't intend to type it out that way hence why i looked back and found out that i misinterpreted it, THAT was the only time i denied it pal which then i typed out "I misinterpreted it NEXT to the "Did i say that".

Now, would you kindly shut the hell up or would you like to argue on about this meaningless matter? I'm VERY sure because of your level of intelligence and negative IQ you are going to chose to argue on and on.

The whole reason i'm arguing about this is because you just cannot and will not accept the fact that i made a mistake and i ADMITTED it with the "I misinterpreted it" hence the need for you to constantly attempt to pressurise me and make yourself look EXTREMELY stupid in the process JUST because you won't accept the fact that i misinterpreted something.








Originally posted by darthsith19

SO now that's TWO things that you misinterpreted, at this rate you will have misinterpreted your entire argument by the end of the week, and somehow I'm the stupid one? You mean by the end of the month? Sure, i'll stick to refuting your bullshit claims till then.


Originally posted by darthsith19

Wow dude, is your entire post going to be insults? Is that the level you stoop to when someone bests you in a debate?
LOL you have yet to best ANYBODY in these forums, i only conceded to 2 points friend whereas you still argue like a broken record.

Oh, and as far as insults go, you post about 4 times as many as I do. If you had only posted a couple insults it wouldn't have even been worth mentioning, but since about 1 out of 3 of your "rebuttals" includes an insult, it really drags down your appearance and makes you look dumb. And that's not an insult, it's the truth.
And the truth is that you are stupid beyond belief friend. The ONLY reason you keep arguing is because you CANNOT accept the fact that your EGO has been hurt so many times everytime you type something in these forums.

But again DS, how does stating the facts that you ARE an idiot equate to an insult? How does stating a fact make me look dumb?

Originally posted by darthsith19

It doesn't discredit it. Do you remember even remember what we initially started debating about? If you do, you just proved my point.

Nope. Originally posted by darthsith19

Vader didn't want to engage ben in a force fight but chose to engage him in a saber duel, which proves my initial point; that Vader thought his chances would be better with a saber than with the Force.
How does that prove your point when there are other circumstances which prevents it from doing so? Such as the fact that in the final duel between luke and sidious where sidious could have EASILY beaten luke where he chose to engage in a saber duel?

HOW does that prove your point darth sith? How does the fact that vader MAY have wanted to engage ben in a saber duel instead of a force duel? How does that equate to vader being unable to harm ANH ben when the fact remains that he has choked a jedi and dueled 2 others at the same time?

How does that prove your point DS?

I also think it is painfully obvious that vader had a greater chance of using the force to beat maul rather than engage him in a saber duel yet he STILL chose to fight maul in a duel?

It is also painfully obvious that despite dooku's strength in the force, he could have easily tooled both anakin and obiwan with the force but STILL chose to engage him in a duel?

How about the possibilities that vader THOUGHT that he had a better chance in a saber duel when the fact remains that he could do much better with the force seeing that he was able to crush entire medical rooms, rip out an entire bridge and use the parts as missles or being able to choke xizor millions of lightyears away in the bounty hunter wars?



Originally posted by darthsith19

That was my initial point, and if Vader thought he would have a better chance with the Force, he would have used it. It is human nature to get things done the easiest way possible. This shows us how good ANH Kenobi's Force Powers are and shows that he would beat ROTJ Luke in a Force or all-out fight, which is what this thread is really about, in case you forgot. But the only problem is, vader could have THOUGHT he had a better chance with the lightsaber, again see the above.

Originally posted by darthsith19

And that's the entire point I was trying to make in my initial post after this thread got bumped. And your point holds no water.



Originally posted by darthsith19

WTF kind of rebuttal is that? If you don't have to say to something I posted, don't quote it. It means i "concede" that quote.


Originally posted by darthsith19

Like I said "That's possible." Which seems the only possibility considering the fact that sidious is far superior in the force that luke whereas had he put up a defence, lukes attack would have been completely deflected.



Originally posted by darthsith19

Can you read? I said:



I was talking about the first duel, not the second duel.
I'm sorry

Originally posted by darthsith19

You still said it. Again, if I called you a f*cking moron, and then later said that misinterpreted it, it wouldn't mean that I never called you a f*cking moron, would it. But the whole problem is you intended to call me a fcuking moron and you try to lie your ass by saying you misinterpreted it.

My situation on the other hand was already clearly explained in the first post which you are either too stupid or too incompetent to even bother to read.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Alright, how quickly is quickly? Are we talking 5 seconds, 30 seconds...? How long does it take for a massive force to crush organic material? How long would it take for a foot to crush an orange? Similar properties friend.


Originally posted by darthsith19

Yes, Force Crush can quickly kill opponents, I agree and I never stated otherwise. Ok.


Originally posted by darthsith19

Nah, I already typed it out, might as well leave it there so that you have to go through it all. Now that was unnecessary was it for you to go through that?

Originally posted by darthsith19

What? You are calling me a broken record, yet you also say that you'd love to debate with me. So, you enjoy debating with broken records? lol. Keep 'em coming, then. That was what i was trying to say pal.

I'm STILL waiting for my response in the other post.

Why is this even a debate? ANH Ben owns the shit out of Luke.