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As the quote that Lightsnake provided for us, is far from pure proof Sidious > Ragnos, what are everyone's thoughts on this fight?

Meh, Ragnos is Sidious' superior by a fairly large margin, and Luke just isn't capable enough to stop Ragnos. I see Sidious going down fairly quickly, then Ragnos engaging Luke in a fairly succinct and furious battle, with Ragnos coming out as the victor.

Ragnos takes this.

Ragnos takes it with much greater ease than my esteemed colleague Traya has described it.

Ragnos is butchered. How the hell is he even close to anything resembling the power to these two at once? Luke and Sidious's duel was felt by every force sensitive in the galaxy by their power alone, Sidious's death weakened the dark side quite a bit, Luke can slice through an army and have enough power to take down their leader.

Him being 'ancient' doesn't make him powerful. Especially when his biggest credential is...being the strongest five thousand years prior to Luke and Sidious, and ruling the Ancient Sith, an impressive feat, but not one that automatically makes him a force god.

Location of the fight?

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Meh, Ragnos is Sidious' superior by a fairly large margin, and Luke just isn't capable enough to stop Ragnos. I see Sidious going down fairly quickly, then Ragnos engaging Luke in a fairly succinct and furious battle, with Ragnos coming out as the victor.

Ragnos takes this.

Well said, and agreed.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Meh, Ragnos is Sidious' superior by a fairly large margin, and Luke just isn't capable enough to stop Ragnos. I see Sidious going down fairly quickly, then Ragnos engaging Luke in a fairly succinct and furious battle, with Ragnos coming out as the victor.

Ragnos takes this. I can see why you're a teacher.At any rate,QFT.

When Ragnos can shatter the fabric of space or become a living avatar of the force, let alone describe as a divinity or whose power being felt by every force sensitive across the galaxy, or his death crippling the dark side, knowing every dark side technique ever, along with every aspect of the force, he can stand a chance.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
When Ragnos can shatter the fabric of space or become a living avatar of the force, let alone describe as a divinity or whose power being felt by every force sensitive across the galaxy, or his death crippling the dark side, knowing every dark side technique ever, along with every aspect of the force, he can stand a chance.

1. Who can "Shatter the fabric of space"? Is this hyperbolic nonsense? Do you understand what that actually entails?

2. Who became a "living avatar of the force"? You DO realize that the force consists of all lifeforce in the galaxy, right? How can you ever put that in one person?

3. Described as divinity? So was Ramses greater than Sparticus in personal combat because the former was described as divinity? zomG!

4. "Whose power being felt by every force sensitive across the galaxy"? This is news to me.

5. Knowing every dark side technique ever? LMAO. We already discussed this. Sidious can't condense thousands of years of Sith lore into a ten minute a day video that he watched over the course of his being a friggin' politician. Don't be daft.

6. Every aspect of the force? Is that why Sidious got tooled by 2.5 people?

1. It's in Dark Empire, and the Sourcebook, and pretty much everything else. That's what Sidious's force storms do. It's right in DE when Palp creates his force storm.

2. Quote from NJO: "He had become the force and the Force had become him." Other lines include "Pure, living avatar of the light," And Jacen? He became the forc,e the forc ebecame him. Disagree all you like, but it's written down in black and white in TUF and in Traitor

3. Yeah, because Ramses and Spartacus are being described as such in fictional settings by narrarators!

4. Yep, I've posted the passage before.

5. Except it's written down in material...so despite how impossible it is, him learning it via arcane or natural means, he knows it and it's stated directly.

6. Channeling the entire power of the light as said in DE? And we've seen Luke and Brakiss toy around with solar flares for fun and showing off to students before. When asked if he could actually make the sun explode, Brakiss grew troubled and said he hoped he'd never have to.

You can't pick and choose. It's written down, it's in the continuity. Contradicted? Nope. Some of it was recent as late 2005. If you don't believe Palpatine could've studied all that, then he just absorbed the knowledge like he did with several holocrons. Stop the semantics: DE, short stories...Palpatine took numerous, numerous trips to Korriban and numerous other worlds, took power from worlds at a time, Had Abbadon, Arkania, Ziost...We can go over it and over it again, but still...it's written down. To paraphrase: "They drew energy from the stars, from the seas of Mon Calimari, but the twisted metal of the Emperor's Throne room."

Palp also had enough time to master Sith alchemy and write 'The Creation of Monsters', as well as 'The Book of Anger'

Luke as is can slice through an army and have enough to kill their leader, who's...what...nine feet tall, pure strength and power? The best warrior the Vong have?

And here's the utter quesiton: If the armies of Ancient Sith were so godly, why did they get tooled on three planets? And I'd rather get tooled by the skywalkers than a young padawan who'd just fought through an army and Tavion.

I'm not sure. If Luke can stall Ragnos for maybe a minute or so, Palpatine would be able to get a force storm ready, aimed and projected. Can Ragnos really survive something of that magnitude?

Ackbar poses a good question, where does this fight take place?

I really doubt Ragnos could last against something that could tear ships apart.

And also, according to the ROTS novelization, Palpatine was such a master of darkness, trying to defeat him by fighting him was futile. EU-wise, he was only ever beaten by acts of sacrifice

Did Ragnos have a technique that could kill ANY opponent in one shot? No. Luke does.

Did Ragnos have a Force Storm that could destroy star fleets? Uh no. Sidious did.


DN Luke > DE Sidious > Ragnos.

Originally posted by Storm Kensho
Did Ragnos have a technique that could kill ANY opponent in one shot? No. Luke does.

Where does it say "any opponent"? We haven't even seen it (assuming you're referring to Emerald Lightning) work on a Force user, let alone a powerful one.

At the very least, Luke knows Mortichro and electric judgement, though.

Oh, from the Book of Anger:
"Using this knowledge, I can unleash the dark side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms."

The narrarator says he shatters the fabric of space as well.

Plus, Sidious's dark side knowledge was being transcribed in the books he wrote...he wrote three books, each one taking a minimum of two weeks to read, at ninety six hours being extremely generous...and before his final death, DE's end pages stated his knowledge would have filled hundreds of volumes if he lived to write them

Well, has there been a powerful enough Force-user who can compare to Luke yet? No. Until then, Emerald Lightning and Sidious' Force Storm alone make Ragnos fodder to the both of them.

Originally posted by Storm Kensho
Well, has there been a powerful enough Force-user who can compare to Luke yet? No. Until then, Emerald Lightning and Sidious' Force Storm alone make Ragnos fodder to the both of them.

You're claiming Emerald Lightning can kill everything and everybody when you have no proof. This is what I see when I read your post:

"UmM Luk3 iz t3h l33t s0 h1s f0rce 0wnz R4gn0s! L0l 1 hav3nt 3vEN re4d T0teejay!"

To break it down, you're claiming it will effectively work on Ragnos without proof that it can even affect a Force user.

That aside, we know Luke can use electric judgement and mortichro, and Palp can use the latter and force lightning...enough to devastate a large group of people at once

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That aside, we know Luke can use electric judgement and mortichro, and Palp can use the latter and force lightning...enough to devastate a large group of people at once

Good for them. I want Kensho to answer my post regarding his claims on Emerald Lightning, if he doesn't post something to back it up -- then my assumptions were correct, and he has no clue what he's talking about. For now, I just want that answered.

I have no proof of that. Then again, if it can work on the Force-resistant Vong, then it'll prolly work on a Force-user. I dunno whether it'll work or not, we'll just have to wait and see.

However, it seems you haven't countered my argument that Sidious > Ragnos. Then again, Ragnos didn't have a Force Storm that could destroy star fleets. So Sidious > Ragnos.

If you'll BS about Luke's inferiority, then think of this. DE Sidious > Ragnos. DN Luke > DE Sidious. So, all in all, Luke > Ragnos. FAce it, Luke's the most pwoerful Force-user the glalaxy has even seen.

Originally posted by Storm Kensho
I have no proof of that. Then again, if it can work on the Force-resistant Vong, then it'll prolly work on a Force-user. I dunno whether it'll work or not, we'll just have to wait and see.

Of course you have no proof, which is why I called you out on it to prove your bullshit. Maybe in four hundred years when Luke uses his Emerald Lightning in Star Wars: Episode MMDCCLI on a Force user, then yes it will be certified -- until then, there's no proof.



Why the hell do I need to counter it? All you did was make a false claim, and I sent out to correct it. I wasn't debating the subject, merely pointing out your BS claim.



Then again Ragnos' sceptor was able to raise temples, and suck the Force out of planets ya-da-ya-da. So, Ragnos > Sidious. See how that does, or rather, doesn't work.

I'm glad your arguement consists of nothing but "Sidious can do X z0mg and Ragnos cant!!! L0lZ L3ath3rf4ce > R4gn0s!!//?!!!q1111".

Look, I can do the same thing:

"z0mgbbqwtf R4gn0s d1dnt GeT BeaTed bye M4C3 H1NDU s0 M4rka R4Gd0ll IS > th3n PALP!!!!!!!!///111"

Sorry, kid, it just doesn't work like that. I didn't see Luke blowing up entire star fleets with a Force storm, yet he managed to slice Sidious' hand off.



Why would I think of it like that? Especially coming from your mouth when you just made a claim, tried to defend it after I called you out on proof, then admit you had no proof and were primarily pulling things out of your ass.

Answering that question with a "No" is simply biased.

Is it certain? No, but then nothing is. Is it possible or even plausible? Indeed. There are various attacks that can be qualified as "instakill" that's derived from the ancient Sith, so why wouldn't their most powerful have wind of that? Especially if he has a scepter that is one of the more powerful weapons in the galaxy.



By this logic, Naga Sadow would pwn both of them because a single amulet blast = 2 liquidized bodies.

Silly logic.

Originally posted by Storm Kensho
I have no proof of that. Then again, if it can work on the Force-resistant Vong, then it'll prolly work on a Force-user. I dunno whether it'll work or not, we'll just have to wait and see.

However, it seems you haven't countered my argument that Sidious > Ragnos. Then again, Ragnos didn't have a Force Storm that could destroy star fleets. So Sidious > Ragnos.

If you'll BS about Luke's inferiority, then think of this. DE Sidious > Ragnos. DN Luke > DE Sidious. So, all in all, Luke > Ragnos. FAce it, Luke's the most pwoerful Force-user the glalaxy has even seen.

1) Contradicted yourself, and an illogical assumption

2) You had no argument, your reasoning equals that of a 6 year old - Someone can do X and Someone can't therefore the one that cant loses.

3) Why do you assume that any of us agree with your petty assumption of DE Sidious > Ragnos, come back when you have proof. "Lukes the most powerful" wow pulling statements out of your ass? Point out where does it state Luke even remotely comes close to being the Most Powerful of the Most Powerful.

Honestly, none of the Sidious/Luke Fanboys can make a proper argument with the exception of Lightsnake.

We can't just assume that Ragnos would win. These threads are silly. Luke and Sidious have shown us more impressive use of the force. Hell Ragnos hasn't even shown us any use other than being a spirit. Until we have a proper gauge, the 2 win.

Yes... Absence of proof is proof of absence. Go team logic... or not.

Well, after long thought and discussion, I've discovered that Lightsnake has no f***ing idea what he is talking about.

Anyway, I can see the same thing happening that Traya described.

You know...go to the SW comics site Sorgo provides, go to Dark Empire and to the last issue...or open Dark Empire or the Dark Empire sourcebook or the Dark Side sourcebook...I posted the quote from DE's 'book of anger.'

And by sheer economic principles, the end results matter: ragnos has not been shown to do what Luke and Sids have done and has done nothing to truly impact the galaxy besides...die. His expressions of power are less than Sidious's and Luke's, but somehow he's so godly.

I checked on TUF and I'll gladly type it all out with page numbers:
Jacen becomes one with the Force, and Emerald lightning kills the slayer it's used on when Luke uses it.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Answering that question with a "No" is simply biased.

Is it certain? No, but then nothing is. Is it possible or even plausible? Indeed. There are various attacks that can be qualified as "instakill" that's derived from the ancient Sith, so why wouldn't their most powerful have wind of that? Especially if he has a scepter that is one of the more powerful weapons in the galaxy.



By this logic, Naga Sadow would pwn both of them because a single amulet blast = 2 liquidized bodies.

Silly logic.

What instakills from the ancient Sith? We know Palp has a great many, as described in DE and the book of anger, but it's also said there he 'invents new ones (Techniques) at his pleasure."" ...and Ragnos's sceptre was destroyed very easily. Sith artifacts, powerful as they may be, are dated, and they've been destroyed before, with blade or by force.

And Naga wasn't using that amulet on Ludo, let alone the idea that he could raise his arm to get it done before Sidious shuts his body down with morichro, that Sadow's amulet attack is unblockable and undodgeable...we've only ever seen it used on three unarmed massassi, an unsentient creature and Nadd's spirit when Kun caught him off guard

Theres no way Ragnos could beat these two..

Luke and Sidious destroy him.

I don't see anyone surviving the full magnitude force storm directed at them.

I'm curious as to how Luke diverted/survived/deflected it, or whatever.

I would check myself had swcomics not been down.

Luke, Leia and Anakin Solo-unborn- joined together, directed the full power of the lightside at Palp to save him from the darkness, exposing him to the purest light...it caused him to lose control

If that's the case, then Ragnos would not be able to replicate the technique (as far as we know).

You can't fight ultimate darkness with darkness, as much was stated

This thread should be closed because Marka Ragnos is an unknown who everyone says is god, althoguh thats bullshit considering R2 is the only god. So their talkign out of there asses.

Originally posted by Storm Kensho
Then again, Ragnos didn't have a Force Storm that could destroy star fleets. So Sidious > Ragnos.
This is a trivial argument. Dooku has force lightning. Yoda doesn't. Dooku > Yoda?? No.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What instakills from the ancient Sith? We know Palp has a great many, as described in DE and the book of anger, but it's also said there he 'invents new ones (Techniques) at his pleasure."" ...and Ragnos's sceptre was destroyed very easily. Sith artifacts, powerful as they may be, are dated, and they've been destroyed before, with blade or by force.

And Naga wasn't using that amulet on Ludo, let alone the idea that he could raise his arm to get it done before Sidious shuts his body down with morichro, that Sadow's amulet attack is unblockable and undodgeable...we've only ever seen it used on three unarmed massassi, an unsentient creature and Nadd's spirit when Kun caught him off guard

Traya defines her ability as being derived from the ancient Sith, so is Nihilus'. Again, if someone's body is vaporized by an amulet, that's a pretty instant kill. Exar killed Odan in one-panel, he learned, presumably, from either Freedon Nadd or Sadow's notes, both of which has knowledge of the Ancient Sith.

Again, simply saying "No" when there is evidence and a premise to believe otherwise is displaying bias, whether or not you like it or not.

You can't call out lack of evidence as your evidence, and then go hide behind your choice quotes and irrelevant feats, sorry.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Traya defines her ability as being derived from the ancient Sith, so is Nihilus'. Again, if someone's body is vaporized by an amulet, that's a pretty instant kill. Exar killed Odan in one-panel, he learned, presumably, from either Freedon Nadd or Sadow's notes, both of which has knowledge of the Ancient Sith.

Again, simply saying "No" when there is evidence and a premise to believe otherwise is displaying bias, whether or not you like it or not.

You can't call out lack of evidence as your evidence, and then go hide behind your choice quotes and irrelevant feats, sorry.

Palp knew that force drain ability as well, plus, I wouldn't call it specifically and completely instakill. It could probably be tailored to how the user wants. (Nihilius, after all, drains the Ravager's crew perpetually)

And Exar is wearing his gauntlet in that panel, why is crushing someone with your power automatically part of the ancient Sith's repetoire?

And we saw Kun use that amulet on three Massassi and a giant wyrm who didn't disintegrate...I'm not sure if those massassi were vaporized or charred beyond recognition. Hell, we never saw Kun blast at someone again. Do we know it's unblockable? Do we know it can't be dodged/countered? We know Sith artifacts and weaponry can be destroyed with saber or force easily from a powerful, experienced masterl...do we even know Kun could use it the same way again? It was all he could to direct the things at first. He also punched into Nadd rather than blasted him.

And draining worlds, killing from a distance with anger alone, shattering space's very fabric and stopping or crushing an enemy's heart with the force alone is 'irrelevant?'

Three Jedi Masters would disagree with you.



Is he going into the fight naked? If I put NJO Luke in a fight, do I assume he has a lightsaber? Why would this be any different?



It didn't disintegrate the beasts? The beam tore huge chunks clear out of the beast. It's obvious that if the beam was any bigger, the entire wyrm would have been gone. It's hard to disintegrate something larger than the blast itself.

As for how do we know it's unblockable? We know it went through everything on panel. So it's up to your side to bring in proof for the other. You asking me to prove a negative is folly.



Really? Which artifacts are easily destroyed? Ragnos' scepter survived a lightsaber duel between two force-users, and then it survived a duel with just its sith sword. It was later destroyed, but that was never depicted on panel.

So Ragnos' 5000 year old scepter was durable enough to withstand a lightsaber. So by this logic, a sith artifact is more durable than a lightsaber hilt, which will be destroyed by a lightsaber hit.



And canonically the amulet activated again. What other situation did Kun need to use it?



He never shattered space's very fabric while dueling with Luke, when Luke lopped off his hand. He drained a world prior to performing the other feats, so again, that's like me saying Ragnos' scepter has the power of several worlds and such. A different modifier. Crushing an enemy's heart? When did he do that against a skilled force user? If he can't pull it off in the context of the battle, it is irrelevant, like it or not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palp knew that force drain ability as well, plus, I wouldn't call it specifically and completely instakill. It could probably be tailored to how the user wants. (Nihilius, after all, drains the Ravager's crew perpetually)


Yes it can be tailored to how the user wants. And if the user wants "instakill" it's an "instakill". Easy to understand.



Because all Exar had and knew was coming from the Ancient Sith including his gauntlet ? So if Kun can crush a force user with his force power the more powerful ancient Sith could most likely do the same thing.



Man. What do you want ? We also don't know if Luke's attacks can be blocked, same with Sidious his attacks. It works in both directions. And yes - ancient Sith artifacts can be destroyed - but not while being used by ancient Sith. If you want to start like this: We have seen Sidious destroying Leia's lightsaber in DE - does that mean every fight here turns into a fist fight after 3 seconds now ? Because in this case Ragnos has this easily...



If creating solar flares easily, creating entire illusionary armies throwing entire fleets arround and rip almost anything apart with some Sith alchemy tools is irrelevant (to you) then anything Sidious did is vice versa.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Three Jedi Masters would disagree with you.



Is he going into the fight naked? If I put NJO Luke in a fight, do I assume he has a lightsaber? Why would this be any different?



It didn't disintegrate the beasts? The beam tore huge chunks clear out of the beast. It's obvious that if the beam was any bigger, the entire wyrm would have been gone. It's hard to disintegrate something larger than the blast itself.

As for how do we know it's unblockable? We know it went through everything on panel. So it's up to your side to bring in proof for the other. You asking me to prove a negative is folly.



Really? Which artifacts are easily destroyed? Ragnos' scepter survived a lightsaber duel between two force-users, and then it survived a duel with just its sith sword. It was later destroyed, but that was never depicted on panel.

So Ragnos' 5000 year old scepter was durable enough to withstand a lightsaber. So by this logic, a sith artifact is more durable than a lightsaber hilt, which will be destroyed by a lightsaber hit.



And canonically the amulet activated again. What other situation did Kun need to use it?



He never shattered space's very fabric while dueling with Luke, when Luke lopped off his hand. He drained a world prior to performing the other feats, so again, that's like me saying Ragnos' scepter has the power of several worlds and such. A different modifier. Crushing an enemy's heart? When did he do that against a skilled force user? If he can't pull it off in the context of the battle, it is irrelevant, like it or not.

And I'm sure Visas, Sion and Nihilius's crew would agree with me. Traya wanted to kill those three. Palpatine drained Byss and left the inhabitants alive.

Oh, come on...does Exar use it against an armed, sentient force user? So, it went through everything on panel, we've seen At AT blasts do the same thing and Luke deflected those with ease.

You saying Kun used a technique from the ancient Sith on ODan is conjecture. Pure and simple, that was my point.

Sith artifacts Luke destroys against everal dark siders, Boba Fett destroys several artifacts in some of his one shots, The Rogue Squadron destroyed several artifacts in Requiem for a rogue with blaster shots...and when Ragnos sceptre was hit by a saber it exploded. It was never canonically struck by a saber except in gameplay.

The amulet may've helped Kun when he was cornered at Yavin.

And no, Palpatine activated the force Storm AFTER he and Luke fought and Luke's power was described as incredibly powerful. And what 'worlds' did Ragnos's sceptre drain? Or was it certain sites? And Palpatine wrote of crushing an enemy in the book of anger and apparently it's how Palp killed Arden Lyn and threatened to do to Sedriss...and yeah, he can pull it off in the context of battle. In fact, can Kun use his amulets in battle? He never does so when he duels Ulic or Vodo. Not to mention he has been shown to use Malacia and Morichro in battle, against Luke.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes it can be tailored to how the user wants. And if the user wants "instakill" it's an "instakill". Easy to understand.



Because all Exar had and knew was coming from the Ancient Sith including his gauntlet ? So if Kun can crush a force user with his force power the more powerful ancient Sith could most likely do the same thing.



Man. What do you want ? We also don't know if Luke's attacks can be blocked, same with Sidious his attacks. It works in both directions. And yes - ancient Sith artifacts can be destroyed - but not while being used by ancient Sith. If you want to start like this: We have seen Sidious destroying Leia's lightsaber in DE - does that mean every fight here turns into a fist fight after 3 seconds now ? Because in this case Ragnos has this easily



If creating solar flares easily, creating entire illusionary armies throwing entire fleets arround and rip almost anything apart with some Sith alchemy tools is irrelevant (to you) then anything Sidious did is vice versa.

Great, so Palp has all those instakills at his disposal.

Ah, so exar's knowledge is inferior to Palpatine's?

Tell that 'they can't be destroyed while being used by Ancient Sith' to Ludo and Ragnos...Ragnos's sceptre got shattered in his battle and Ludo happily destroyed his own weapon. You're still operating under conjecture with ragnos. With Palp, I can use instances, abilities and quotes to actually back it up. You know what I want? Ragnos doing something to match up to what Palps has done, a quote that proves his knowledge surpassed anyone of the future or the past, something that applies by a narrarator that states Ragnos's full power and knowledge. I'd like you guys to stop utterly downplaying Palps and the like's abilities. Something describing him as a god, a pure manifestation of the darkside, needing the Jedi of eons to lock his soul away, him unbalancing the force, his death weakening the dark side, him having mastered the force in all its guises, including Jedi and Sith sides of it, moving faster than the eye could see, able to shatter the fabric of space, kill opponents from a great distance when his anger was focused, something beyond what's done with electrical weapons and alchemical creations, something that is NOT conjecture on Ragnos's power. Something concrete

Brakiss tossed around solar flares as a game for Zekk, Luke created illusionary armies, and 'Sith alchemy tools?' are power? You mean an 'electrical weapon?' Palpatine's Force storm was described as the single greatest usage of the dark side. By the narrarator.

Ok just an off-topic thing.....

Why did Ragnos throw away the scepter (when he had possesed Tavion's body) like it was useless and instead pulled out his sword?

How could Tavion lift Ragnos sword?

I never got those things....

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Great, so Palp has all those instakills at his disposal.


Great. Until we see Palp using them, he doesn't.



Let me see: When did Palpatine visit Yavin 4 to learn everything from Kun, Sadow and Nadd ? When did he visit the destroyed planet Malachor V to learn about it's secrets. It didn't happen ? And I'm sure Sidious amassed more knowledge (considering he had more time). But knowledge doesn't equal victory. Would DE Luke be able to defeat a living Kun when JA Luke wasn't able to defeat Kun's spirit ? No, I don't think so.



Lude destroyed his own weapon, yes. Think about it you poor excuse for an intelligent lifeform. And Ragnos threw his sceptre away to use his sword against Jaden. But nevermind.



Yes. Calling him "the most powerful of the most powerful" equipped with "titanic" powers isn't just enough. Ruling people who happily destroyed entire star systems with their force powers for more than a century isn't either. No. The fact that he tooled "the greatest Sith magician alive" in a duel doesn't mean jack shit too. Really.



I like you to stop building a pedestal for Sidious by telling lies and exaggerate the words of actual source by overinterpreting them beyond belive.

It took the Jedi of eons to lock away his soul ? Great. Apparently the Jedi of eons couldn lock away the souls of the Ancient Sith Lords who kept wandering through the Galaxy several millenia after their death. Ancient Sith > Sidious.

Because he mastered really everything he had his ass nearly handed to a green muppet, had to kill his master while the master was sleeping and of course got pwned by several people without any reason. It just happened.

Vader force choked people to death that were lightyears away. ESB Vader > Ancient Sith now ?



Sidious did the very same - nowhere. Thanks.



Did I miss the batteries attached to Kun's amulet and Ragnos sceptre ?



Jap. While Palpatine was using an entire planet as power backup. It's nice how something like this turns Raynar into a force god able to rival DN Luke - but it does nothing to Palpatine's powers. Can you remind me why he didn't just smite the Rebel fleet in ROTJ with a force storm or instakilled Luke in ROTJ ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Great. Until we see Palp using them, he doesn't.



Let me see: When did Palpatine visit Yavin 4 to learn everything from Kun, Sadow and Nadd ? When did he visit the destroyed planet Malachor V to learn about it's secrets. It didn't happen ? And I'm sure Sidious amassed more knowledge (considering he had more time). But knowledge doesn't equal victory. Would DE Luke be able to defeat a living Kun when JA Luke wasn't able to defeat Kun's spirit ? No, I don't think so.



Lude destroyed his own weapon, yes. Think about it you poor excuse for an intelligent lifeform. And Ragnos threw his sceptre away to use his sword against Jaden. But nevermind.



Yes. Calling him "the most powerful of the most powerful" equipped with "titanic" powers isn't just enough. Ruling people who happily destroyed entire star systems with their force powers for more than a century isn't either. No. The fact that he tooled "the greatest Sith magician alive" in a duel doesn't mean jack shit too. Really.



I like you to stop building a pedestal for Sidious by telling lies and exaggerate the words of actual source by overinterpreting them beyond belive.

It took the Jedi of eons to lock away his soul ? Great. Apparently the Jedi of eons couldn lock away the souls of the Ancient Sith Lords who kept wandering through the Galaxy several millenia after their death. Ancient Sith > Sidious.

Because he mastered really everything he had his ass nearly handed to a green muppet, had to kill his master while the master was sleeping and of course got pwned by several people without any reason. It just happened.

Vader force choked people to death that were lightyears away. ESB Vader > Ancient Sith now ?



Sidious did the very same - nowhere. Thanks.



Did I miss the batteries attached to Kun's amulet and Ragnos sceptre ?



Jap. While Palpatine was using an entire planet as power backup. It's nice how something like this turns Raynar into a force god able to rival DN Luke - but it does nothing to Palpatine's powers. Can you remind me why he didn't just smite the Rebel fleet in ROTJ with a force storm or instakilled Luke in ROTJ ?

Narration states he does. Try again.

Ahh, insults, Nai. Does winning an internet debate mean so much to you? Ragnos also failed to defeat Jaden, couldn't touch him in his own tomb after receiving energy from the scepter and Jaden destroyed his secptre easily. Waiting for that proof.

It was clarified most powerful of the powerful meant 'five thousand years ago.' Try again. Proof Simus was the greatest Sith magician, proof the Sith were destroying star systems, proof Ragnos's powers were described as titanic. Canon sources if you would.

I expect you to ignore every evidence for Sidious that takes away from your king of conjecture. And most Ancient Sith Lords didn't pass on into the Force held by fading Jedi. And once more, petty insults. Green muppet? Yoda? Is your back so against the wall? Ragnos did nothing and got pwned by a neophyte knight while using his sword, empowered by his own tomb. It happens. And light years away? Ozzle was on the executor. Come on, Nai, been asking you for quotes and evidence of Ragnos. You tend to totally ignore how Sidious is outright stated to have mastered every known, previously unknown and new technique...and he invents new ones at his pleasure. Still haven't scene those Ancient Sith do a thing to stars without their electrical weapons-which KJA wrote were used- or demolish fleets. If Naga could do so, he never would have been threatened by the Tetan fleet, nor would Ludo have died how he did.

Palp didn't unleash a force storm because he was enjoying his fleet winning with his BM. And he was having fun torturing Luke. Easy enough?

Still waiting for those proof on Ancient Sith power...electrical weapons>All, right? Something besides conjecture. What's Ragnos done comparing to Palpatine, except in your interpretation? You've been decrying me for taking things as 'interpretations', yet you're rather fond of them yourself.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Narration states he does. Try again.

Where ?



No. I have a strange allergy against people that do pocess more eyes than braincells.



Again comparing spirit to original force user.



Proof Sidious was the more powerful than Plagueis. You can't. Sit down. Shut up. You lost.



No they just passed into the force without getting hindered by a dying freak in a life support suit.



Again. Comparing Ragnos spirit to the original force user. Can you do anything else ?



Hahaha. That's why he was talking to him via a monitor while standing on the bridge of the Executor ? Uh-hu. Of course.



Yeah. You did notice that he destroyed the Tetan ships following him and then used the remains of Kressh's fleet as a bareer against the Tetans, didn't you ?



And Ragnos didn't destroy the entire universe because he did enjoy the universe. Way to debate.



My interpretation. Oh well...it's more likely the in universe interpretation of everybody that's talking about the ancient Sith including Luke himself after tooling DE SIdious but somehow this doesn't matter to you. Go on with your Sidious fanboyism. I'm tired of destroying the same shit over and over again. You left the boards crying months ago. You will leave them crying again. No need to argue with you any longer.

Dark side sourcebook, DE Sourcebook.

So, do you sneeze every time you look in the mirror? Seriously, if you're getting this worked up over the internet..

Because a spirit is all we have of Ragnos, the king of conjecture....Ragnos in living flesh with his weapons, empowered by the energy of the staff in his own turf bolstered by the dark side.

Rise of Vader, ROTS novelization. Palpatine surpassed Plageuis. Ok, then.

Vader's in his personal chambers when he kills Ozzle-the meditation thing? And then he puts Piett in charge...what was Piett admiral of? Survery says...Executor!

Using an electrical weapon on his own ship and tactics! That so equates to Naga's power, especially when he was only doing that to get awy when if he had a force storm, he'd have wiped out the Tetan fleet!

Except we've seen Palp instantly kill people, it's been stated he can and Palp has used force storms...Ragnos hasn't. Try again.

Whine, whine, moan, moan, Nai, I've heard it before. You just stamp your foot in a huff when you can;t prove crap about your god. I'm curious, if KJA actually answers that Palpatine is better than the others, what'll you do? You call me a fanboy, but you hanging onto Ragnos and the Ancient Sith, who only do something so godly with an electrical weapon, but you can throw out insults when someone can actually argue and present evidence? Seriously. Destroying? Trying to argue with the sources now? Arguing with exact quotes that say Palp did what he did and knew what knew?
Try again....and for the record, shut up with the fanboy BS. Me defending a character's strength doesn't equate to fanboyism

"Hahaha. That's why he was talking to him via a monitor while standing on the bridge of the Executor ? Uh-hu. Of course"

You made an idiot of yourself there, Borbarad.

Ozzel and Vader were on the same ship.

Hmm...
An old witch, a dwarf and Borbarad stand before the Mirror of Truth. Everybody that tells a lie in front of the mirror gets obliterated immediatly.

Old Witch: "I think I'm the most beautiful woman in the world" *zap* she's gone
Dwarf: "I think I'm the greatest person in the world" *zap* he's gone.
Borbarad: "I think" *zap*



Pwnt!!!

Guys, don't insult him...he deserves respect as much as the next poster

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
Hmm...
An old witch, a dwarf and Borbarad stand before the Mirror of Truth. Everybody that tells a lie in front of the mirror gets obliterated immediatly.

Old Witch: "I think I'm the most beautiful woman in the world" *zap* she's gone
Dwarf: "I think I'm the greatest person in the world" *zap* he's gone.
Borbarad: "I think" *zap*



Pwnt!!!

Gotta love turning around insults from other people that were used on you, right?

Bet you were saving that one for a long time.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Gotta love turning around insults from other people that were used on you, right?

Bet you were saving that one for a long time.

Pwnt!

Unamibguously pwnt

Originally posted by Illustrious
Gotta love turning around insults from other people that were used on you, right?

Bet you were saving that one for a long time.


Indeed.

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
I am a total troll and loser!!!!


Pwnt!!!

Offensive image removed

Lightsnake your logic about Sidious possessing every single technique is nothing short of insane and pure fanboyism. So your telling me, in 5000 years knowledge wont be lost? Your saying he mastered every single technique, yet i dont see him, instakilling DE Luke, nor any other Jedi.

Oh, so Sidious had the Ancient Sith's knowledge but not their weaponry nor their teachings great logic there, Sidious is never depicted having a Sith Amulet, nor is he even shown to have learnt more than a fraction of the Ancient Sith.

Logically, Sidious did not have the time nor power to master every last technique of the Dark Side, logically he could not have been at Malachor V, nor find a full storehouse of Ancient Sith lore within the looted tombs of Korriban. Logically he could never have learnt Sadow's powers, because it was destroyed along with Kun.

But i guess none of that matters, to you Sidious learnt every last technique and knew everything...wow way to go fanboy.

Lightsnake your trying to convince the majority of us to go along with your opinion and your beliefs, everyone is entitled to their opinions, adding on to that, if the Ancient Sith didn't impress you that much, DE Sidious does not impress us either, Escape81, provided sufficient information on Sidious's powers based on fact on a thread a while ago.

I'm waiting to see how long it takes you to go into hibernation again.

Janus- first of all, do not edit other people's posts offensively like that.

Secondly, do not bypas sthe censor as an attack on others.

This is a serious matter and I am making it a formal warning. Keep doing either of those things and it will be a ban.

Originally posted by Deception
Lightsnake your logic about Sidious possessing every single technique is nothing short of insane and pure fanboyism. So your telling me, in 5000 years knowledge wont be lost? Your saying he mastered every single technique, yet i dont see him, instakilling DE Luke, nor any other Jedi.

Oh, so Sidious had the Ancient Sith's knowledge but not their weaponry nor their teachings great logic there, Sidious is never depicted having a Sith Amulet, nor is he even shown to have learnt more than a fraction of the Ancient Sith.

Logically, Sidious did not have the time nor power to master every last technique of the Dark Side, logically he could not have been at Malachor V, nor find a full storehouse of Ancient Sith lore within the looted tombs of Korriban. Logically he could never have learnt Sadow's powers, because it was destroyed along with Kun.

But i guess none of that matters, to you Sidious learnt every last technique and knew everything...wow way to go fanboy.

Lightsnake your trying to convince the majority of us to go along with your opinion and your beliefs, everyone is entitled to their opinions, adding on to that, if the Ancient Sith didn't impress you that much, DE Sidious does not impress us either, Escape81, provided sufficient information on Sidious's powers based on fact on a thread a while ago.

I'm waiting to see how long it takes you to go into hibernation again.

I don't care what you believe it is: It is written down in black and white in a canon source he did. And Sadow's 'powers' destroyed with Kun? Yavin 4 and the like survived, with the knowledge and dark side power.

I'm waiting how long it takes until someone actually realizes that their opinion on how much Sidious knew is null and void to the actual material...I'm also waiitng for direct evidence of the Ancients' godliness

Why isn't knowledge gained throughout time as well? Basically, a bunch was lost during the Hyperspace War. AFTER the Hyperspace Wars, were there really any major event of dark side loss until the Ruusan. And are we sure THAT many things were lost then?

Even after the Ruusan, Bane's order had 1000 years to regain lost knowledge and acheive new Dark Side knowledge. There's no doubt in my mind that Bane's Order gained quite a few nifty techniques in their 1000 years of practice. Which is a MIGHTY long time. Considering the Ancient Sith Empire only lasted 2000 years (Which makes very little sense, if any).

We're also considering Sidious was led to what he found by the dark Side itself and spent a lot of town at Korriban

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't care what you believe it is: It is written down in black and white in a canon source he did. And Sadow's 'powers' destroyed with Kun? Yavin 4 and the like survived, with the knowledge and dark side power.

I'm waiting how long it takes until someone actually realizes that their opinion on how much Sidious knew is null and void to the actual material...I'm also waiitng for direct evidence of the Ancients' godliness

So I'm waiting for direct evidence that Sidious could apply any of this "omniscience."

Sidious being the "strongest sith lord in history" isn't conclusive, yet every bit of hyperbolic line in Sidious' favor is, even when it's completely illogical.

Ok, so Sidious "knew" all these attacks, and he just couldn't apply them. Fine by me.

Sidious could control the size of his storms, used Morichro and Malacia in direct combat...and while we're at it, where's the Ancient Sith's power in context and in battle? We've seen Palp focus a force storm on one person to transport him...what stars will Marka be destroying, how is THAT relevant?

And here's the double standard: Sidious is directly stated to know ALL of the techniques, yet even the vaguest quote on the Ancient Sith is gospel over the guy who's mastered the use of any offensive technique?Marka being the strongest Sith Lord is conclusive now?
Now, seriously...what the hell are you on about? Sidious couldn't apply Sith and Jedi attacks he knew DESIGNED for defeating opponents? Twisted logic...but now it's your turn: Prove the Ancient Sith's power could be turned on their enemies? We've seen Sidious center a force storm, we've seen him fry people with lightning, use Malacia and Morichro, we know he can drain people of the force and their lives, we know he can freeze people and block himself from their minds even when they're standing right in front of him....wealso know the emanations of his power from a duel-not even directed at anyone- can cause people to drop down dead

Ragnos hands down.

Lol..funny how once sentence from tdtd automatically pwns Lightsnake

LOL

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dark side sourcebook, DE Sourcebook.


Since when do RPG sourcebooks do pocess a "narration" ? There isn't a single source were Sidious instakills a force user. In fact he didn't manage to kill Brand and Vader instantly with Force Lightning - both wearing life support suits which are vunerable against force lightning. How would he be able to kill another force user ?



I'm a cynic. I never get "worked up" over something especially not over the internet and much less over people I don't even know.



Obviously you entirely miss some points.
You take Kreia's comment that he plotted the other Sith against each other for thruth but then ignore her saying that Ragnos pocessed "tremendous physical strengths and a frightening grasp of the Dark Side". She also say that in a fight the Ancient Sith would make people from her time "look like children".

So wait a second. This female Sith Lord, who did pocess enough force powers and knowledge to kill 3 Jedi Council members with a single force attack and has studied Sith history for years on Malachor V ("a storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge" apparently had a reason to think that the ancient Sith as a group would make people from her time (Nihilus, Sion, herself, the Exile - possible Revan, Malak and maybe even Kun) "look like children" and she descripes the power of Ragnos as "frightening". Did you ever see a Sith using such words to descripe Sidious ? I didn't. In fact the only situation I remember a Sith having thoughts like this is Dooku thinking about a Dark Side Yoda - and those thoughts included Sidious being owned by a Dark Side Yoda.



I didn't see Sidious surpassing Plageuis in one of those sources. In fact this would be pretty dumb. Sidious himself said that Plageuis pocessed knowledge to manipulate midi-chlorians and therefore could create life. Why would Sidious use clone bodies or try to take over Anakin Solo's body when he had knowledge needed to create a new body for himself using the force ?

And sorry to say that. But in DLotS you have Nadd talking about using Sadow's knowledge to create an entire new body for him and in JK:JA Ragnos sceptre is attributed with the ability to resurrect (aka creating a full functioning and living being) Ragnos. If Sidious could do anything like that he would have done it but apparently he didn't and instead relied on technology.



Yes, sorry. You are right. It's been a while since I've seen ESB so I somehow had in my mind that both of them were on another ship (in the asteroid field) and Vader was away in order to talk to Sidious. My mistake.



Why you keep referring to the ship when I was talking about Sadow's amulets and Ragnos sceptre ? Those devices are clearly not "electrical" weapons but just working with force power. And we've seen them tearing stuff away when used by less powerful beings. In case of Ragnos sceptre we've even seen this thing draining force energy from places, equip non-force users with force powers on Jedi Knight level and apparently it did have the ability to resurrect a person that was dead for 5,000 years - all in the hands of a minor force user.

And yes. Naga didn't use a force storm to stop the Tetan's. Maybe because it's not really controlable by a single person (as Sidious suggests himself in the Book of Anger) or maybe because it wasn't effective in the situation. But the Ancient Sith must have known it since it is mentioned in the TOTJ sourcebook as well as the Sith in "Jedi vs. Sith" say that this is an ancient technique (remember that they had their Dark Side knowledge coming from a Sith holocron stolen from the Jedi temple).

In the same way I could ask you why Sidious didn't use all kinds of instakill abilities (that he knew) when he had to instakill somebody. He could have survived in ROTJ instantly killing Vader. He could have instakilled Mace, Yoda, Fisto, Kolar, Teen. Instead he got nearly tooled twice by Yoda and Mace. He could have killed anybody in DE when needed. But instead he relied on "not instantly killing" force techniques which lead to his death several times and to his final defeat. Reason ? I don't see any except the plot - and even this could have been designed otherwise if wished.



Where did we see Palp instantly killing force users ? Name them. Give me the source. Ragnos hasn't instakilled people, right. Kreia did that with 3 Jedi Council members and she descripes Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening". So why not suggest that Ragnos can do that too ?
On the other hand: Why should we suggest that Sidious can use instakill attacks especially against other force user when he never did that in any actual source ?



Oh wait. Where did we see the electical weapons when Sadow did fight Kressh and they keep putting their swords through massive stone walls ? Were did we see the electical weapon that helped Sadow to put his sword through a stone table ? Where did we see the electical weapon when Kressh shattered his metal sword with bare hands ? Where was the electrical device helping Nihilus draining planets or Kreia instakilling 3 Jedi Council Members ? I didn't see any electrical weapons there. What I see is Sadow labelling a blaster (electrical weapon) "primitive" in GAotS.

And even if Sadow used an electrical weapon able to destroy entire star systems and cause supernovas: The fact that the Ancient Sith did have something like that 5,000 years before anyone else developed something coming close to it (Death Star, Sun Crusher) is pretty impressive.



I call you a fanboy because you exeggerate Sidious abilities.

If he knew anything and was above the Ancient Sith why do we see him running to the ancient Sith and asking for help even in DE times ?
It's illogical. The same way it's illogical to assume that somebody who could write down his entire knowledge in three books pocessed more knowledge than people who did need entire planets (Malachor V) to archievate their knowledge.
Why should anybody believe that somebody has more force powers than people who were the offspring of interbreeding force users over generations ? Why should anybody believe that somebody can amass more knowledge in 98 years than other people could in the matter of centuries ?
Why should anybody believe that Sidious could kill persons that lived in constant struggle for power and survived using force attacks that were known to said people ? Why should we believe that he can defeat them in a fight when we saw them shattering metal and hammering through walls with their weapons ?

I told you once and I will tell you again: Sidious philosophy is to avoid fights, to manipulate, to act behind the scenes while the ancients entire philosophy is based on using violence, conquer and cause death and destruction. I would willfully admit that Sidious could outsmart most of the ancients in politics or deception but in a fight in which only physical strength and force powers matter against people whos entire life was a constant fight to gain power against other force users ? I really don't see him winning this - especially not after I have seen Luke defeating him in a lightsaber fight in DE when Luke later did have some serious problems with the spirit of Exar Kun and after this suggests that it needs the combined power of all Jedi to try and stop Ragnos. It just doesn't make sense.

Excellent post.

Damn.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Damn.

Huh ?!

That was an uber response.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when do RPG sourcebooks do pocess a "narration" ? There isn't a single source were Sidious instakills a force user. In fact he didn't manage to kill Brand and Vader instantly with Force Lightning - both wearing life support suits which are vunerable against force lightning. How would he be able to kill another force user ?



I'm a cynic. I never get "worked up" over something especially not over the internet and much less over people I don't even know.



Obviously you entirely miss some points.
You take Kreia's comment that he plotted the other Sith against each other for thruth but then ignore her saying that Ragnos pocessed "tremendous physical strengths and a frightening grasp of the Dark Side". She also say that in a fight the Ancient Sith would make people from her time "look like children".

So wait a second. This female Sith Lord, who did pocess enough force powers and knowledge to kill 3 Jedi Council members with a single force attack and has studied Sith history for years on Malachor V ("a storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge" apparently had a reason to think that the ancient Sith as a group would make people from her time (Nihilus, Sion, herself, the Exile - possible Revan, Malak and maybe even Kun) "look like children" and she descripes the power of Ragnos as "frightening". Did you ever see a Sith using such words to descripe Sidious ? I didn't. In fact the only situation I remember a Sith having thoughts like this is Dooku thinking about a Dark Side Yoda - and those thoughts included Sidious being owned by a Dark Side Yoda.



I didn't see Sidious surpassing Plageuis in one of those sources. In fact this would be pretty dumb. Sidious himself said that Plageuis pocessed knowledge to manipulate midi-chlorians and therefore could create life. Why would Sidious use clone bodies or try to take over Anakin Solo's body when he had knowledge needed to create a new body for himself using the force ?

And sorry to say that. But in DLotS you have Nadd talking about using Sadow's knowledge to create an entire new body for him and in JK:JA Ragnos sceptre is attributed with the ability to resurrect (aka creating a full functioning and living being) Ragnos. If Sidious could do anything like that he would have done it but apparently he didn't and instead relied on technology.



Yes, sorry. You are right. It's been a while since I've seen ESB so I somehow had in my mind that both of them were on another ship (in the asteroid field) and Vader was away in order to talk to Sidious. My mistake.



Why you keep referring to the ship when I was talking about Sadow's amulets and Ragnos sceptre ? Those devices are clearly not "electrical" weapons but just working with force power. And we've seen them tearing stuff away when used by less powerful beings. In case of Ragnos sceptre we've even seen this thing draining force energy from places, equip non-force users with force powers on Jedi Knight level and apparently it did have the ability to resurrect a person that was dead for 5,000 years - all in the hands of a minor force user.

And yes. Naga didn't use a force storm to stop the Tetan's. Maybe because it's not really controlable by a single person (as Sidious suggests himself in the Book of Anger) or maybe because it wasn't effective in the situation. But the Ancient Sith must have known it since it is mentioned in the TOTJ sourcebook as well as the Sith in "Jedi vs. Sith" say that this is an ancient technique (remember that they had their Dark Side knowledge coming from a Sith holocron stolen from the Jedi temple).

In the same way I could ask you why Sidious didn't use all kinds of instakill abilities (that he knew) when he had to instakill somebody. He could have survived in ROTJ instantly killing Vader. He could have instakilled Mace, Yoda, Fisto, Kolar, Teen. Instead he got nearly tooled twice by Yoda and Mace. He could have killed anybody in DE when needed. But instead he relied on "not instantly killing" force techniques which lead to his death several times and to his final defeat. Reason ? I don't see any except the plot - and even this could have been designed otherwise if wished.



Where did we see Palp instantly killing force users ? Name them. Give me the source. Ragnos hasn't instakilled people, right. Kreia did that with 3 Jedi Council members and she descripes Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening". So why not suggest that Ragnos can do that too ?
On the other hand: Why should we suggest that Sidious can use instakill attacks especially against other force user when he never did that in any actual source ?



Oh wait. Where did we see the electical weapons when Sadow did fight Kressh and they keep putting their swords through massive stone walls ? Were did we see the electical weapon that helped Sadow to put his sword through a stone table ? Where did we see the electical weapon when Kressh shattered his metal sword with bare hands ? Where was the electrical device helping Nihilus draining planets or Kreia instakilling 3 Jedi Council Members ? I didn't see any electrical weapons there. What I see is Sadow labelling a blaster (electrical weapon) "primitive" in GAotS.

And even if Sadow used an electrical weapon able to destroy entire star systems and cause supernovas: The fact that the Ancient Sith did have something like that 5,000 years before anyone else developed something coming close to it (Death Star, Sun Crusher) is pretty impressive.



I call you a fanboy because you exeggerate Sidious abilities.

If he knew anything and was above the Ancient Sith why do we see him running to the ancient Sith and asking for help even in DE times ?
It's illogical. The same way it's illogical to assume that somebody who could write down his entire knowledge in three books pocessed more knowledge than people who did need entire planets (Malachor V) to archievate their knowledge.
Why should anybody believe that somebody has more force powers than people who were the offspring of interbreeding force users over generations ? Why should anybody believe that somebody can amass more knowledge in 98 years than other people could in the matter of centuries ?
Why should anybody believe that Sidious could kill persons that lived in constant struggle for power and survived using force attacks that were known to said people ? Why should we believe that he can defeat them in a fight when we saw them shattering metal and hammering through walls with their weapons ?

I told you once and I will tell you again: Sidious philosophy is to avoid fights, to manipulate, to act behind the scenes while the ancients entire philosophy is based on using violence, conquer and cause death and destruction. I would willfully admit that Sidious could outsmart most of the ancients in politics or deception but in a fight in which only physical strength and force powers matter against people whos entire life was a constant fight to gain power against other force users ? I really don't see him winning this - especially not after I have seen Luke defeating him in a lightsaber fight in DE when Luke later did have some serious problems with the spirit of Exar Kun and after this suggests that it needs the combined power of all Jedi to try and stop Ragnos. It just doesn't make sense.

Ever since said sourcebooks started including solid story information, like when they brought Kadann back?

Fine, I don't care if you're cynical, but drop the insults.

how would he manage to kill another Force user? One of the thousands of other attacks he knew?

Ragnos playing the other Dark Lords against eachother was mentioned in earlier sources, it's not something she invented. And great for people from Kreia's time...did they master knowledge and techniques dating back 25,000 years to the founding of the Order and Had Abaddon?

And Dooku was scared of Sidious, for one...you want 'descriptions?' I'll be glad to bring out a few from the narrarations. Some included are an event horizon in the force, a terrifying, devouring darkness, the manifestation of the Dark Side itself, etc.

And Palpatine used cloning because it was fast, efficient and provided him with numerous bodies in numerous areas. It was his preference, not his limitation.

That's the power of the tools, many of which Sidious got his hands on, according to several sources. Apparently it was Hethrir who gave Tavion the sceptre, too.

Yes, very impressive for the ancient Sith, I'll agree. However, when Kun uses the amulet, he himself says he can barely manage to direct it, and he never uses it in such a manner again on someone who could be capable of fighting back-Ulic for example. Yes, he uses it on Aleema, but as a stun blast.

Ok, exagerrating his abilities? He manage to devastate fleets and reuce worlds to ruin...described as the single greatest usage of dark side power for the former, and described as having mastered every technique and aspect of the force to that point, that's eagerration? What of the severe exagerration of the Ancients? And Sidious heads to Korriban, quite simply because time is an extreme factor, with his last clone body being in the poor state and himself being almost unable to use the force for killing it.

And once again: How Sidious amassed such knowledge is unknown, but he did. As for the books, Sidious was said to be planning and to be able to write hundreds more before his death.

And 'shattering metal?' Ludo slammed a blade made of crystal onto a stone floor. And this is an earnest question: When did they shatter through walls?
continued next post, size too great:

Sidious had years to visit numerous sites and both gain the knowledge and drained other energies from where he visited. Just because fighting wasn't his preference doesn't he's not capable of it. He knows techniques the Ancient Sith did not, including Jedi arts, and what would the ancients do exactly if Sidious used a force storm and focused it on them? Aren't brains a big part of battles? And if the Ancients' philosophy was to conquer, why were they stagnating for centuries on end? Naga's wishes to expand and conquer were met with scorn until Simus's death. And Luke's problems with Kun stem from several things: He did not want to fight Kyp and having centuries dead Sith Lords appear tend to surprise most people...Sidious's power broke Luke's spirit in a way that hasn't been done since and turned him to the dark side, and the descriptions since of Luke's battle with Sidious sums up their power adequately, like how Ganner, Anakin and Jacen were in the former two's deaths and Jacen's lightshow: It wasn't something permanent, but the will of the force acting through them, to describe it from Jacen, the aforementioned became 'pure conduits to the force and its raw power.'
Sidious was the same with the dark side, and described as its manifestation. after his final death, the dark side was irrevocably weakened. He might not have lived in those times, but experince tends to mean little in SW...Jacen manage to match the centuries old Tsavong Lah, Sidious himself killed numerous powerful masters-some many centuries old- during the purge-hence his saber collection.If it's the force in a duel, Sidious could doubtlessly use the many, many powerful techniques the Ancients wouldn't know or use another attack on a level they couldn't guard against.


And I call into question your description of the Ancients when we take into Ludo's Marka devotion, their reaction to Simus's death-and it was Simus's death, not that he was murdered by outsiders- and the necessity to trick them into going to war...even Simus's concern for Naga.

Keep in mind Palpatine planned to exist for at least 10,000 years. An army of clone bodies would grant him that right.

All of this has to do with what exactly Lightsnake? Your novels have no point, nor do they present a valid argument for Sidious. Why not accept the fact that Sidious was not among the greatest sith lords and move on. How many times do we have to have this discussion.

But he was accepted as among the greatest as you describe. In Empire's End.

We're not talking about greatest, we're talking about the most powerful. He most likely is the greatest because he accomplished something no other has, but this in a versus thread, it's all about power, not greatness.

"Why not accept the fact that Sidious was not among the greatest sith lords and move on. How many times do we have to have this discussion."
-TdTd
*reads last post*
Mmm...hmm..

Maybe because the amulet provides defense against other amulets? Always a possible explanation. They do glow in conjunction.



Perhaps because he was the last Sith Lord to be in a physical form?

Actually, if you count the EU, we have...Darth Talon and Darth Krayt! Never minding Lumiya and the like..

Did Kun know Ulic had the amulet, though?

We're not talking about greatest, we're talking about the most powerful. He most likely is the greatest because he accomplished something no other has, but this in a versus thread, it's all about power, not greatness.

Perhaps, but there are only 6 above him IMO.

Possibly 5. Nadd never impressed me.

Disagreeing, but yes...that's...seven out of, what? Several thousand?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Did Kun know Ulic had the amulet, though?

I'm sure he didn't see something that looked nearly the same wrapped around Ulic's exposed chest. As well, I'm sure he didn't see the glowing of their amulets together, right?

I meant prior to that.

Interesting thought though, in DLOTS Kun knew that Ulic had the other amulet, his counterpart, and as we know Sadow wore two amulets at all time in GAOTS, so that leads me to believe that Ulic's amulet could possibly do the same thing as Kun's, only he didn't know how to use it.

Originally posted by tdtd
Interesting thought though, in DLOTS Kun knew that Ulic had the other amulet, his counterpart, and as we know Sadow wore two amulets at all time in GAOTS, so that leads me to believe that Ulic's amulet could possibly do the same thing as Kun's, only he didn't know how to use it.

Except all of the major sith lords wore similar amulets, if I recall correctly.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2429/ragnosrule5sd.jpg

Yea but Janus, Kun called that amulet it's counterpart, and we know that Sadow did wear 1 amulet on each hand, so it might be logical to assume that the other one was also Sadow's amulet, and could possibly do what Kun's amulet can.

I agree, but that doesn't preclude it being another sith lord's, or even Nadd's. If I recall correctly (It's been a few months since I waded through the Freedan Nadd Uprising and such), that was from Nadd's collection, right? It's very likely Sadow's, given that Nadd learned under Sadow.

So if it is Sadow's, why can't Ulic use the power that Kun had in the other amulet, unless only one of Sadow's amulets is worth something which wouldn't make any sense.

Three theories...

1. Ulic didn't know how to use it. (Which would be weird, because Kun used it instinctively.)

2. It's not meant for that kind of blast. (Plausible. I once mentioned the possibility that the secondary amulet was meant for defending against such attacks, which would explain why there aren't incinerated bodies everywhere).

3. It has the ability, but Ulic has not reached the level of hate and force power to use it. (Debateable, but still possible.)

2 and 3 seem very logical, interesting.

Or 4: Ulic is a Ken wannabe and simply not cool enough to use Sadow's amulet for anything other than jewelry.

AHAHAHA.. I think Ken had more muscle though

And more accessories.

Come to think of it, Nomi Sunrider looks like a brunette barbie.

Nomi Sunrider always looked ugly to me...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ever since said sourcebooks started including solid story information, like when they brought Kadann back?

Oh. You maybe should read the DS sourcebook entry on Ragnos then...carefully...



Or else... ?



Oh...you're talking about the kind of attack we never see him using when needed. Why didn't he make Vader drop down dead on the ground instead of getting thrown into a reactor core ? I'm still waiting for a quote saying that Sidious knew and used instakill attacks.



It was mentioned in earlier sources ? Site those sources. Give me quotes please.
Let me think: Did people in Kreia's time had access to a storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge named Malachor V - yes. Is Nihilus descriped as "pinacle" of the ability to drain complete planets ? Oh yeah. Did the Sith knowledge include abilities from the time of founding of the order or - at least - knowledge predating great loss of knowledge like the destruction of Ossus and Malachor V and the complete destruction of the Ancient Sith Empire, as well as the Jedi Civil War and the Sith War as a whole ? Yap.



And now give me the quote were Dooku mentions Sidious control over the Dark Side or his force powers as "frightening". In "Striking from the Shadows" he even thinks about overcoming his master once since this belongs to the rule of the Sith. Yes. I totally see him being scared of Sidious. Same way he was scared about Yoda - Sidious equal ?



Quote ? I didn't see him saying "I could just create new bodies for myself if I want but instead I prefer clone bodies and in case I run out of clones I totally must desperately try to pocess a Jedi child despite the fact that I can create a new body for myself whenever I want". Logic anybody ?



The power of tools created by the Ancient Sith. Somehow I didn't see Sidious creating tools like that but instead he again did rely on technology. But of course...that was his preference, not his limitation, right ? "I want to rule the galaxy with terror. But instead of creating a ship that uses part of my force power to destroy planets and sun systems I rather spent 19 years with waiting until the Death Star is finished and spent billions of credits on the project". What a genious...



I love how you simply refuse to accept that those amulets were created by said Ancient Sith who could control their power - namely Sadow. This somehow makes me think that Sadow > Kun when it comes to control over the Dark Side. And we already now that Ragnos > Sadow. And we also know that Kun's 4,000 year old spirit was enough to keep Luke - who had already defeated Sidious at this point - busy. Want to draw conclusions yourself or do I really have to do all logical reasoning for you ?



Dude. He ran to Korriban and received knowledge from the Ancients that he didn't have before. Get it into your head. If he had mastered every aspect of the Dark Side, he would have known what to do - but he didn't. So: Exagerration !



He was ? Quotes ? The only thing he left unfinished was the last book of his compendium and said compendium was always planned to have 3 books. Do you have a quote saying something else ? No ? How about STFU then instead of coming up with this kind of idiocy.

And great...he wanted to write "hundreds" more before his death. Do you know how much information can be stored in a single holocron ?



Oh your knowledge is unbelievable great. Not.
So they are made out of crystal ? Aha. Is this why Ajunta Palls weapon is crafted out of metal ? Is this why those swords could block blasters as well as lightsabers ? Is this why the swords do cut through stone ? Is this why the metal blades clashing together in the comics. Can it be that somebody is talking out of his ass again ?



Ludo and Sadow fighting. You can see them swinging their blades right through the walls next to them. Cont...

...cont.



Yes. I really like to see him visiting places that were destroyed completely 4,000 years in the past (Ossus, Malachor V).



No. He's not capable of it because we see him not being capable of it when he lost his lightsaber fight with DE Luke.



The ancient Sith which were the descendants of rouge Jedi didn't knew Jedi arts ? Great theory. Sidious focused a force storm on them which he can't even control himself ? Another great theory.



Because they took the entire space they could before hitting the boarders of the Republic and they already had anything they wished which is mentioned multiple times in the comics.



This is so great. You completely miss the topic and throw in another missdirection. What do Kyp, Sidious, Ganner, Anakin and Jacen have to do with Luke's problems to defeat Kun's spirit. Correct: Nothing. The "will of the force" doesn't apply in versus fights and so there won't be any power boost saving somebody.



And again: You're talking out of your ass. Where is Sidious the "manifestation" of the entire Dark Side. I didn't see the Dark Side suddenly being gone after DE.
And nice missdirections again: Is Tsavong Lah a force user who had the same stuff to study that Jacen had ? No ? Great. Give me the names of the numerous force users Sidious killed during the purge - this was Vaders job. Can it be that somebody is talking out of his ass again ? And Sidious knowing techniques the Ancients wouldn't know ? Where should he have received them since he learned anything from sources that were used and in most cases created by the ancients ? You don't have an answer ? Damn...why doesn't that surprise me ?



Oh my.
Can it be that they had to be tricked into war because they did have everything they wanted allready and just saw going to war with the Republic (and the Jedi) as a possible threat that was completely useless because they already ruled over an empire and the former Dark Lord has always kept it like it was ? Do you think they have conquered hundrets of planets using diplomacy and then talked the former inhabitants into becoming slaves ?

I personally am surprised how you can accept one of those "weak" ancient Sith Lords keeping his seperated head alive in a jaw for more than a century ? And I wonder how you can ignore that Sadow nearly conquered the Republic's capital, the capital of the Tetan Empire and another planet during a single attack if he wouldn't have been betrayed by Gav. That guy must be really weak and the Sith / Massassi must be horrible fighters...

Gameplay info isn't valid. IE: Stats

There isn't an 'or else'. I've treated you with a modicum of respect and without flinging insults in your face unprovoked.

Sidious only managed to direct the attack he was using on Vader. The thing was a bit sudden, you know. And considering he knew all known, previously unknown and forgotten techniques...yeah, that proves he knew instakills.

And knowledge isn't gained over time? Your chances to shed logic on it still fail, when you take into account what's written. Sources'd include the EC btw.

Palpatine is described as an 'event horizon' in the Force in the ROTS novelization I believe...now, where's the quote of Ragnos's power being frightening. And where in Rep. 63 did he mention even TRYING to overthrow Sidious? He was playing Quin the entire time to have him assassinate Viento.

Sa-Di and Nefta are at Palpatine's hidden store on Byss, for one...and how the hell are you so sure creating a new body works like that? How is it any difference from a mass produced clone? Once more...hundreds of clones...or one 'new body' that would actually require time to create...when you're NOT a ghost and thus do not need it, as opposed to back up clones

OH, gee, because technology of the Ancient Sith is the determining factor of power! Notice they didn't have access to Sadow's ship anymore? And it's called the 'Sun Crusher'...Palp purposefully had the diea put on hold as he didn't like the diea of some pilot getting ideas with the thing.

I love how you don't provide quotes about Naga having directly created what he had. Put up or shut up...and gee, could Luke's 'loss' have anything to do with Kun surprising him and Kyp doubleteaming him?

Because knowing a baby exists is some dark side technique, hm? Next.

Read the comic, what is Ludo Kressh's blade made out of? Crystal, ok then. Post a scan then, if it's metal.

I said numerous sites, not all the sites.

I've posted the info on the saber duel with Luke, I won't post it again. First time, he destroys Luke in a duel and is said to have killed many other Jedi in battle...and how do we know Sidious was preparing to write more volumes? DE, the endnotes that expand on the book heavily

More crap. Yeah, how would the dark Jedi be passing on non-fatal Jedi arts such as Malacia and morichro?

So, Sith space was in the heart of the Republic with Republic space to the north,e ast, south and west?

Oh, so you can decide that Luke can't fight at his full power now? Fact remains: He doesn't have the same boost with Kun as when he beat Sidious.

DE again for Sidious and the dark side and more misunderstanding of the Force! And Sidious knew...every technique and aspect of the Force to that point, sith to Jedi. And Palpaitne's tally is shown when he shows Luke his saber collection, all taken from the corpses of Jedi. You're trying to go agaisnt what's written again? Not surprised either.

The people who live on conquest and blood have taken all they want? Yeah, real fearsome. And yes, it's amazing Simus could do that...until you take a look at Selestrine from Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire.

So, nai, the Ancient Sith empire apparently knew every Jedi technique and Dark Side technique, developed before-and after- their empire was formed? Still waiting for proof on who created all those toys and trinkets, or how they're different from technology...why a sith amulet blast would be any different than a hidden blaster. Sourcebook still mentions Sidious as knowing all he did, and doing what he did, so spare me your attempts to get out of it and answer me this: Where are all these quotes on the godly Ancient Sith? We have some technology and their weaponry, fascinating...then there's the guy whose subordinate could manipulate solar flares effortlessly. And mastered every aspect of the darkside, and powers and techniques of the Jedi and the Sith. Physical power's great but not seeing that inferiority in Force power...or you attempting to explain why the Republic are 'monsters' to the Sith for killing Simus...Oh, and no explanation made for what is described as the 'greatest usage of dark side power'...or how the Dark side was weakened badly when Sidious died...and just Sidious...or how the it required every jedi of eons to lock his soul away...and yes, Nai, I'm curious...he went to Korriban to learn about baby Anakin, your point? Baby Anakin is a long forgotten piece of Sith knowledge? When Ragnos can't even meditate through the force without risking his sabatoged body dying and he knows there's a few people who can tell him what he wants...

And there's alsoa thing called 'scale' when it comes to force powers, Sidious's force storm or world draining for example. And narraration. Like how Luke is described as extremely powerful.

And yes, Sadow's army was so, incredibly powerful...beaten on three planets without illusions. And Aleema and Luke make massive scale illusions, point?

In fact, show me where Sadow's duel with Ludo was felt over the universe.

And Nai? Didn't you say you were finished with this debate? Feel free to make good on that promise

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Gameplay info isn't valid. IE: Stats


Who was talking about gameplay info, huh ?



Wow. He isn't able to stop force lightning at will and use an instakill attack...you know...instantly ? He knew forgotten techniques. If you find logic to add to this sentence come back.



I still fail to see were "event horizon" is Dooku descriping him as "frightening". Quote given by Kreia on Korriban in KotoR II. When he's giving Quinlan a lecture about Sith philosophy and Quinlan says something like "But you will always stay the apprentice unless you kill your master".



Oh yes. Let me think how using a sceptre, waving it over a grave and with this creating a new body is different from using technology to clone yourself and then put your spirit into your new clone body. No there isn't any difference at all...



Thanks for not addressing the point why he didn't create a ship using a part of his power to destroy planets and sun systems.



I love how I write "ancient Sith" and you read "Sadow". I told it once before: Every Sith Lord we see in the comics does pocess amulets like the one Sadow wears and estimating that they "found them on the ground" were even Kun was able to create one of them using Sadow's knowledge is one of the most stupid ideas that I ever encountered.



Because not knowing what to do equals "omniscience" ?



Crystal that the light didn't pass through ? Black crystal ? Able to cut through walls, block lightsabers and blasters ? Do you have a scan saying this ? No ? Great...of course you have not because it's metal like every other Sith sword we've ever seen.



You said he had all knowledge and this implies all sites in case you didn't notice.



Quotes ?
And the notes in DE say he wanted to write one more book which is his book of monsters. He killed "many other Jedi" ? Quote's coming from where ? Because we only see Jedi killing Jedi except you want to call the 3 Jedi Sidious personally killed on his own "many".



Yeah, how would the Dark Jedi know about ancient Jedi techniques that are stated to have been used by Dark Jedi. I don't know...



You did notice that they conquered a pretty huge part of the galaxy with the Republic being on the boarder of said space and the "end" of the galaxy forming the other boarders ?



Fact remains: He didn't receive any power boost while duelling Sidious in DE and defeating him because those are just three panels without any narration.



George Lucas commentary on TPM, AotC and ROTS for any bullshit you want to feed me know. He explicitly states that every Sith unbalances the Dark Side hence the Jedi can't know if they killed the apprentice or the master. Want to contradict him now ?



Yes. He knows everything that existed - in his time.



You mean trying to argue Sidious own words ? When we know that he told lies over and over again ? How could I ? Lmao...



In the matter of 2,000 years which you estimate them to have existed (or which is estimated by the NEC) they have conquered hundrets of planets. Peaceful people. And Selestrine who wanted to die and for some reason couldn't ? Totally compareable to Simus who kept his head alive willfully for more than a century, yes.



You mean those techniques we never see since we don't know when the used techniques were created ?



You want proof for a single possible explanation ? Haha. Difference from a hidden blaster when Sadow calls a blaster primitive and they are electrical weapons with a source of unlimited power in the size of a gauntlet. Yes. Somebody is talking out of his ass really much here.



What a great sentence. Can I print that out and pin it to my wall ? Ragnos know all he did too. OMG. Boba Fett did know all he did. ARGH ! Unbelieveable !



Unbelieveable too ! I can see the news right in front of my eyes: Sidious did all he did ! Wow Lightsnake. Nobody knew that before.



You are talking about Sidious now who is just using "some technology" or Ragnos who's descriped to have a "frightening grasp on the Dark Side" buy somebody who instakilled 3 Jedi Council Members effortless with a single force attack and had his subordinates causing "death of entire star systems" (DLotS #1) ? Want to argue with hyperbolic statements and dumb feat wars ?



Because this was political agitation used by Sadow to make them attack the Republic ? Maybe because Simus was a talking head in a jar who didn't possibly have the ability to defend himself ?

Do you have more to downplay the Sith than trying to turn special and unique events into attempts to discredit them ? No ? Than STFU, please, idiot.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And there's alsoa thing called 'scale' when it comes to force powers, Sidious's force storm or world draining for example. And narraration. Like how Luke is described as extremely powerful.

Nihilus drained a world. Kreia descripes him as a child compared to the ancient Sith. Next.



They didn't produce illusions that were able to fool, attack and even kill trained Jedi. And much less they did it to create three complete armies on three different places at the same time. Point of your attempt to downplay Sadow ?



Dumbass missdirection. What does this have to do with actual power level or with Ragnos personal power. Nothing. And Odan was able to sense Ragnos passing on the other side of the Galaxy. Powerful enough ?



No. I didn't say I'm finished with this debate. I said it doesn't make any sense to argue with you. And it doesn't still make sense. On the other hand: Posting on this boards doesn't make sense either. And I still do it. See ?
And didn't I give you the hint that I'm a cynic ? So: "what do I care about my yesterday babble" (quote by Helmut Kohl, German chancelor 1982-1998).

Lightsnake I believe you are done.

Dude, you've been done for a while

Lightsnake, I never quite understood why someone has to be described as exactly a "titan" to be superior, or on an equal level at the least.

Lightsnake lives in a dream world filled with naked Palpatines.

Originally posted by tdtd
Lightsnake lives in a dream world filled with naked Palpatines.

This has to be the most heinous thing said in this forum.

Heinous? Or erotic?

lol...but that debate seemed to be clearly won by Nai...

Nai is my hero

I was thinking... grotesque. And heinous.

Gotta admit Lightsnake can argue...but he argues a lost case..

Originally posted by Deception
Gotta admit Lightsnake can argue...but he argues a lost case..

Thing is, he's immune to the same evidence he uses for his side.

He goes: "The NEC says Sidious is God. Let it be so!"

And you go: "Yeah, and it supports the feats of the ancient sith"

Him: "That doesn't count!"

lol

indeed, the world according to lightsnake.

Tue author himself said it was flawed, good enough for me

Yet you pick the information that suits you and treat that as canon, very selective logic

When the author himself deals with its validity, there's not much to argue.

Lightsnake, you yourself pointed out that Dan Wallace said that KJA wrote what he covered in the EC, which was the Tales of the Jedi stuff, this would include Sadow manipulating solar flares of the Dena rii Nova.

I know, I said it was Sadow's power channeled via the ship

Lol

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Did Kun know Ulic had the amulet, though?

Yes.

"Interesting... they have a Sith amulet... the mate of this one." - Exar Kun

Primary Source Material > Lightsnake

Previously Unknown does not equal forgotten. Previously unknown means what is previously unknown. This is impossible, he would not have known techniques that weren't even invented, or techniques that were destroyed.

Again, "all known, forgotten, and previously unknown" does not mean "all known, all forgotten, and all previously unknown." I do hope you have enough experience in literature to know the difference. The modifier is not necessarily carried over. And again, considering Sidious never used these abilities, you're arguing with your own logic.



Which... doesn't establish anything.

These aren't comparatives. Being "the most powerful of the most powerful" and making those of another era "look like children" are comparatives.



They don't look like they're made of "crystal" to me. It's not referenced as much in the comics. JK:JA has Ragnos' sword made of metal. The chronology never says anything about them being made of crystal.



Yes, we all know you'd rather assume they found them on the ground. What, you want the comics to show them working in the forge instead of waging battles?

They are described possessively in a variety of sources, most all Sith Lords had them, they weren't found on the ground.

Ok... prove Sidious had all force powers. Where did he execute them?



And Kun apparently mastered "all" too. Sidious wasn't shown to apply "all" of the force.

And wonderful, you can redirect the question. The point is that the knowledge was DESTROYED on Ossus and Malachor V. Where did Sidious get DESTROYED information?



And this is relevant how?

Yaddle knew Morichro, will she beat the Ancient Sith too? Bullshit.



Look up hyperbole, please.

Even if he did master them, he had decades, possibly centuries less time than the ancient Sith to master them. He never used them. Again, don't argue with your own logic. And stop being one-sided.



Sadow said each of the Sith Lords had "dozens" of worlds.



One that is in the TOTJ companion and the Ancient Sith were aware of. Great.



And there response is to gather their forces and launch a grand attack against the Republic.

Stop trying to use more irrelevant misdirection. If I had to point out every one of your logical fallacies, I'd need several posts do it.

For the last time: DEBATE WITH CONSISTENT LOGIC, OR DON'T BOTHER.



Did you play KotOR?



When did they reference anyone killed? I suppose now you want to us to believe that the army and the Jedi were just about to give Coruscant to the Sith. I suppose that them breaking the line at Cinnagar was because not one of the defenders died.

More irrelevant misdirection?



You mean that the damn picture of Marka Ragnos means he wasn't sensed?

Genius. When was Sidious mentioned as being able to make the Jedi of an entire era "look like children." What kind of retard argument is this? "Let's compare adjectives because I can't stop getting owned?" Your fanboyism knows no bounds.

Illustriapwnt.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Elaborate what you mean.

Lets see:
"Marka Ragnos ruled the Sith Empire with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful." The same text can be found at the back of the TPB edition of GAotS.



And again: If he can instantly kill why he didn't do it ? And he did "redirect" the lightning. Haha. It was just casually hitting Vader as you can see some lightning archs bending away from him.



All I see from you are irrelevant missdirections. Proof that Dor Gal-Ram was "centuries" old. Estabilsh how powerful he was compared to Sadow, Kressh and Ragnos. Obviously he was below Sadow and Kressh since he didn't claim the title of the Dark Lord for himself. And we know that Sadow and Kressh were inferior to Ragnos.



No. "Forgotten" means that something was known and then forgotten while "previously unknown" means that it was unknown and then invented.



As Illustrious has already told you: Those aren't comparatives. In fact this is only a description of Sidious ability to hide his presence in the force and the same thing was done by Dooku himself, Maul and even Asajj Ventress.



Let's just ignore that Sidious clone bodies aren't able to store his power like his original body was able to and therefore are aging up to death in the matter of months / years. Great invention that was.



"Crystal" is a description for the form of a material and not a description of a material and the swords aren't made out of crystals. In fact all Sith swords that can be found are made out of metal (see Ajunta Pall's blade and Naga Sadow's blade in the KotoR games and Ragnos' blade in JK:JA). And the DS Sourcebook statest that the power of the user is focused through the blade to equip it with additional sharpness.



Irrelevant missdirection. Tritos Nal was another Ancient Sith so the origin of Garu's Sith sword is still "ancient Sith". We also know that Ajunta Pall created his own sword and was burried with it, as well as we know that all Ancient Sith were burried with their weapons and other artifacts because Revan later was able to plunder the tombs.

So unless you want to tell me that the ancient Sith were a species of tomb raiders who first burried their leaders with their artifacts and then broke into the tombs to steal said artifacts again the only explanation left is that they created the stuff that they own and use.



We know that parts of the knowledge on Malachor V and Ossus was completely destroyed. So...



Wow. He personally killed somebody who was brought as a prisoner before him. *clap* Oh this greatness and power. It doesn't say that he personally killed Jedi in direct confrontation which would pretty much contradict the description of Vader saying that he was responsible for killing the survivors of the Purge.



The arts were ancient and because of their nature considered to be "forbidden" Jedi arts. The point is that I don't see a lightside force user developing techniques like this and it's again a completely irrelevant missdirection.



Yes he knew everything that existed in his era which logically can't include things that were forgotten much less stuff that was destroyed.



The point is that he didn't want to survive so this isn't something that was done by her own power while Simus used his own power to stay alive as a head in a jar for more than a century. That's the point.
And proof that they conquered hundreds of worlds ? Sadow says that every member of the Sith Council rules over "dozens" of worlds. Their are 10 people in the Sith Council and "dozens" are at least 24 meaning they had at least control over 240 planets.



The Sith were the descendants of Dark Jedi who did participate in a war against the other Jedi. So obviously they did know Jedi techniques since they are part of their heritage - especially such that are designed for defeating people.



Aleema Keto used Sadow's ship to destroy the entire Cron Cluster in case you didn't notice. And Sidious force storm is "estimated" to have been the greates usage of Dark Side power ever which is far from a definitive comment on this issue.



The Sith are upset because some people have come to their space, saying they just want to "trade" with them and then apparently killed one of their leaders - and the most defenceless of them. What would you call people who did something like that ?



KotoR II - Kreia's own words. And she is the person who trained Nihilus. There you go.



You did notice how Sadow's troops were about to win on all planets. You did also notice that Ooroo had to sacrifice himself only because of the fact that even Battle Meditation used against them wasn't enough to stop the Sith from winning the battle on Kirrek ? Or did you just miss that fact ? And this battle was only led by one of the minor Sith Lords against two Jedi (Ooroo, Odan-Urr) while one of them was using battle meditation and still the Sith were about to win.



You mean Sadow and Ludo ? Oh the fighting was just intensive enough to cause Ragnos coming back from the grave and lecturing them.



No. We just see Ragnos passing into his grave and then Odan wakes up with the comment that "the force is trembeling". No. Not even a hint of Ragnos. Lmao.



Kreia descripes the ancient Sith as a whole as "titanic" and "godlike", says that they would make people from her era "look like children" and descripes Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening". Then see the quote at the beginning of this post which calls Ragnos "the most powerful of the most powerful" as well as "the Dark Lord of the Sith". Add Luke's suggestion that it would take the combined power of all the Jedi in the Academy to try and stop a living Ragnos. Is that enough now ?

Originally posted by Illustrious
Previously Unknown does not equal forgotten. Previously unknown means what is previously unknown. This is impossible, he would not have known techniques that weren't even invented, or techniques that were destroyed.

Again, "all known, forgotten, and previously unknown" does not mean "all known, all forgotten, and all previously unknown." I do hope you have enough experience in literature to know the difference. The modifier is not necessarily carried over. And again, considering Sidious never used these abilities, you're arguing with your own logic.



Which... doesn't establish anything.

These aren't comparatives. Being "the most powerful of the most powerful" and making those of another era "look like children" are comparatives.



They don't look like they're made of "crystal" to me. It's not referenced as much in the comics. JK:JA has Ragnos' sword made of metal. The chronology never says anything about them being made of crystal.



Yes, we all know you'd rather assume they found them on the ground. What, you want the comics to show them working in the forge instead of waging battles?

They are described possessively in a variety of sources, most all Sith Lords had them, they weren't found on the ground.

Ok... prove Sidious had all force powers. Where did he execute them?



And Kun apparently mastered "all" too. Sidious wasn't shown to apply "all" of the force.

And wonderful, you can redirect the question. The point is that the knowledge was DESTROYED on Ossus and Malachor V. Where did Sidious get DESTROYED information?



And this is relevant how?

Yaddle knew Morichro, will she beat the Ancient Sith too? Bullshit.



Look up hyperbole, please.

Even if he did master them, he had decades, possibly centuries less time than the ancient Sith to master them. He never used them. Again, don't argue with your own logic. And stop being one-sided.



Sadow said each of the Sith Lords had "dozens" of worlds.



One that is in the TOTJ companion and the Ancient Sith were aware of. Great.



And there response is to gather their forces and launch a grand attack against the Republic.

Stop trying to use more irrelevant misdirection. If I had to point out every one of your logical fallacies, I'd need several posts do it.

For the last time: DEBATE WITH CONSISTENT LOGIC, OR DON'T BOTHER.



Did you play KotOR?



When did they reference anyone killed? I suppose now you want to us to believe that the army and the Jedi were just about to give Coruscant to the Sith. I suppose that them breaking the line at Cinnagar was because not one of the defenders died.

More irrelevant misdirection?



You mean that the damn picture of Marka Ragnos means he wasn't sensed?

Genius. When was Sidious mentioned as being able to make the Jedi of an entire era "look like children." What kind of retard argument is this? "Let's compare adjectives because I can't stop getting owned?" Your fanboyism knows no bounds.

Actually, gramtically, Illustrious, yes it does, especially when it also says he had mastered every technique and strength of the jedi and the Sith and all aspects of the force...yes, he knew them.

Key words about Marka: "Of that era."

Look at the scene where Ludo smacks his sword against the ground...and KOTOR has Sith Swords as long, double bladed pikes, what would JK:JA have to do with this?

We know at least one of the Council Sith comissioned another to create his weapons...Garu, and two if we count Bo Vanda going to Kla.

Neither Kun nor anyone else was ever described to have mastered 'all' of the aforementioned, nor 'every aspect of the force and every power of the Jedi and the Sith'

And once more...a site being destroyed means the knowledge can't exist anywhere else? Repeat: Holocrons.

Where is Nihilius directly referred to as a child to the Ancients? Define the 'us' Kreia was talking about.

Sadow was talking to....four Sith lords? Incluing Sadow that's sixty...so, counting Ludo and the other two...that's about 96 worlds. And it was 'a dozen', not dozens. That's considerably less than 'hundreds'

The Kashi system going nova was in no way even related to the Ancient Sith.

The Ancient Sith need to be tricked by the death of one of their own to launch an attack.

Point out ONE CASUALTY of those 'illusions able to kill people.' Except for Ooroo, not a Jedi died.

We see ODan having a nightmare of the Sith Empire, Ragnos is never even hinted at...ODan even says 'what have I forseen?'

Alright, what's better...'tremendeous power'...or 'godlike power'. Yeah, by all means keep trying the adjectives.

Lets see:
"Marka Ragnos ruled the Sith Empire with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful." The same text can be found at the back of the TPB edition of GAotS.
And clarified to mean 'of that era'



And again: If he can instantly kill why he didn't do it ? And he did "redirect" the lightning. Haha. It was just casually hitting Vader as you can see some lightning archs bending away from him.
ROTJ novelization disagrees with you. As do the character guides



All I see from you are irrelevant missdirections. Proof that Dor Gal-Ram was "centuries" old. Estabilsh how powerful he was compared to Sadow, Kressh and Ragnos. Obviously he was below Sadow and Kressh since he didn't claim the title of the Dark Lord for himself. And we know that Sadow and Kressh were inferior to Ragnos.
Character Guide, Naga is described as, with the other Sith lords as preserving his life for a century...and considering every last Ancient Sith is powerful and godly...



No. "Forgotten" means that something was known and then forgotten while "previously unknown" means that it was unknown and then invented.
And forgotten is mentioned as well



As Illustrious has already told you: Those aren't comparatives. In fact this is only a description of Sidious ability to hide his presence in the force and the same thing was done by Dooku himself, Maul and even Asajj Ventress.
Neither of whom were able to do so several blocks from the Jedi temple or to the entire order. Sidious taught Dooku Quey'Tek and he taught Ventress. Maul described Sidious's power as able to cloak the power of the Sith from their enemies from literally inches away.



Let's just ignore that Sidious clone bodies aren't able to store his power like his original body was able to and therefore are aging up to death in the matter of months / years. Great invention that was.
Yeah, proof? All you have is the one clone that was sabatoged. All other clones work fine.



"Crystal" is a description for the form of a material and not a description of a material and the swords aren't made out of crystals. In fact all Sith swords that can be found are made out of metal (see Ajunta Pall's blade and Naga Sadow's blade in the KotoR games and Ragnos' blade in JK:JA). And the DS Sourcebook statest that the power of the user is focused through the blade to equip it with additional sharpness.
Fine, metal. I got a bit confused when we see Naga's sword looking rather similar to the crystal formations at Ziost. And also, we don't see the blade cut through the wall, just that it hits the wall when Ludo swings it...I think the Ancient Sith might be annoyed about dueling lords hacking through the recently established grand tomb of their greatest Dark Lord.



Irrelevant missdirection. Tritos Nal was another Ancient Sith so the origin of Garu's Sith sword is still "ancient Sith". We also know that Ajunta Pall created his own sword and was burried with it, as well as we know that all Ancient Sith were burried with their weapons and other artifacts because Revan later was able to plunder the tombs.

So unless you want to tell me that the ancient Sith were a species of tomb raiders who first burried their leaders with their artifacts and then broke into the tombs to steal said artifacts again the only explanation left is that they created the stuff that they own and use.

My point is, we have several examples of Sith comissioning others to build their weaponry. My point is, the Ancient Sith didn't necessarily create their weaponry themselves, as opposed to getting forgemasters and alchemists and the like


We know that parts of the knowledge on Malachor V and Ossus was completely destroyed. So...
According to complete Locations, Sidious got his hands on what was stored at Yavin 4, so that accounts for knowledge from Ossus-Kun's ghost is never mentioned, however- and a site of the Ancient Sith doesn't mean the knowledge itself wasn't replicated elsewhere. Sidious still managed to get his hands on quite a few Sith holocrons.



Wow. He personally killed somebody who was brought as a prisoner before him. *clap* Oh this greatness and power. It doesn't say that he personally killed Jedi in direct confrontation which would pretty much contradict the description of Vader saying that he was responsible for killing the survivors of the Purge.
Vader handled the bulk of the purge, but Sidious was referred to as killing quite a few Jedi himself. And Tremayne and his fellow Inquisitors certainly accounted for some of the Jedi...Tremayne killed Shelvay's master for example-the Sullustan, forgot his name.



The arts were ancient and because of their nature considered to be "forbidden" Jedi arts. The point is that I don't see a lightside force user developing techniques like this and it's again a completely irrelevant missdirection.
The techniques are still designed to neutralize enemies without violence...why would the destructive fallen Jedi even bother with them, or get around to pasing them on to the Sith?



Yes he knew everything that existed in his era which logically can't include things that were forgotten much less stuff that was destroyed.
No, it was 'ever' and that was made extremely clear. Mastered all known, previously unknown and forgotten, and invents new ones and his leisure, later stated he had mastered every power of the Jedi and the Sith, and every aspect of the Force. 'In his era?' come on...what happened to those Sith holocrons and artifacts then? Did he learn nothing from Ziost, Korriban, Had Abaddon?



The point is that he didn't want to survive so this isn't something that was done by her own power while Simus used his own power to stay alive as a head in a jar for more than a century. That's the point.
And proof that they conquered hundreds of worlds ? Sadow says that every member of the Sith Council rules over "dozens" of worlds. Their are 10 people in the Sith Council and "dozens" are at least 24 meaning they had at least control over 240 planets.

Sadow says each rules a 'dozen' in reference to four Sith lords kneeling before him...with himself and Kressh, that would make around 96 (I'm including Horak and Dor)
And fine, admitted on the Simus point.


The Sith were the descendants of Dark Jedi who did participate in a war against the other Jedi. So obviously they did know Jedi techniques since they are part of their heritage - especially such that are designed for defeating people.
The point was the Dark Jedi went dark and began using the force in destructive ways....and over two thousand years, their teachings kept constant?



Aleema Keto used Sadow's ship to destroy the entire Cron Cluster in case you didn't notice. And Sidious force storm is "estimated" to have been the greates usage of Dark Side power ever which is far from a definitive comment on this issue.
Where was it just 'estimated' now? And yes, Sadow's ship. Once more, technology isn't a substitute of power.'



The Sith are upset because some people have come to their space, saying they just want to "trade" with them and then apparently killed one of their leaders - and the most defenceless of them. What would you call people who did something like that ?
Like the Sith weren't killing defenseless people when they chucked the slave women into Ragnos's tomb and sealed it? Especially with the speech Naga gives on Simus, his wisdom and nobility...why is the comment of nobility not being laughed out of the room?





KotoR II - Kreia's own words. And she is the person who trained Nihilus. There you go.
According to KReia, Nihilius is something very special and a threat to all life...where does she call him a child in comparison?



You did notice how Sadow's troops were about to win on all planets. You did also notice that Ooroo had to sacrifice himself only because of the fact that even Battle Meditation used against them wasn't enough to stop the Sith from winning the battle on Kirrek ? Or did you just miss that fact ? And this battle was only led by one of the minor Sith Lords against two Jedi (Ooroo, Odan-Urr) while one of them was using battle meditation and still the Sith were about to win.
I also noticed how Odan was standing around being useless...ODan said his BM wasn't enough to sway the single minded fury of the Massassi...and the moment the illusions vanished, the tides turned. The comic said it was about to fall to overwhelming numbers.



You mean Sadow and Ludo ? Oh the fighting was just intensive enough to cause Ragnos coming back from the grave and lecturing them.
That's 'across the galaxy'? And the point was Ragnos wanted them to band together to preserve the empire, not tear it apart.



No. We just see Ragnos passing into his grave and then Odan wakes up with the comment that "the force is trembeling". No. Not even a hint of Ragnos. Lmao.
Quote: "What have I forseen?" He has nightmares about the Sith empire, when does he ever even hint about Ragnos?



Kreia descripes the ancient Sith as a whole as "titanic" and "godlike", says that they would make people from her era "look like children" and descripes Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening".
And it was confirmed that just meant in Ragnos's era, Luke is talking about stopping Ragnos's forces and ressurection-and Luke is suddenly a great source on long dead Sith? And the Academy to every Jedi who ever lived? Palpatine's power is described as 'godlike' and as a'divinity' and the 'manifestation of the darkness', and 'darkness beyond darkness'...where was this godlike comment?

Really Lightsnake your just repeating yourself over and over again, its rather quite amusing watching you debate every point with assumptions, feat wars and in general terms logical fallacy.

Sooner or later you will go back into hibernation.

Actually, LightSnake does make some good points. But some of his other ones are ridiculous.

Pwnt

Grammatically, no it doesn't. Stylistically, no it wouldn't. The line would read "all known, all unknown, and all forgotten" if it were the case. Not only is the latter unambiguous, it is grammatically correct, stylistically more powerful, and puts the emphasis on all.

Combine that with the logical impossibility of him knowing it all, the difference between knowing and the capacity for usage and the fact that Sidious did not use them all means a defeated point, sorry.



KotOR has all the swords being metal, Ragnos' blade in JK:JA is shown as metal. So you're saying Ludo is the only one with a crystal sword? They aren't crystal. There is no mention to them being crystal whatsoever. End of story.



I believe the term was "of our era." Nihilus obviously existed during her era.



Did you not notice the screen when the other sith lords were crowning him the Dark Lord? There were 8 or so there.



We see Odan having a nightmare and the image he is depicted with is Ragnos.



Now you're the final aribter on Luke's comment?

Luke says, "If Ragnos is resurrected...., we would need all of our strength to stop him."

Since when does Kreia calling them "titanic" and "making us look like children" mean just that era?

~*~*~*

Let's see the error in your arguments:

1. Illogical use of canon.

"All known, previously unknown, and forgotten."

You suddenly become a loose constructionist for Sidious. The modifying "all" is not even carried over, and your belief is that Sidious knew all of them. You're suddenly using logical extrapolation for Sidious.

"Ragnos' sword, Sadow's ship, Sadow's amulet, etc."

Suddenly, even though they're possessive not one of them made their artifacts. Somehow, they all found these immensely powerful weapons on the ground.

You switch over and become a strict constructionist with these arguments. If it's not explicitly mentioned in the comics, it didn't happen for the ancient Sith.

Biased argument.

2. Illogical interpretation on canon.

DE, written before TOTJ, is untouchable. Even the DE sourcebook, a sourcebook for an RPG is completely passable. However, the story parts of the TOTJ companion, the NEC, and TOTJ itself clearly is not.

"There must be a retcon."

Sorry, if anything, DE was retconned. TOTJ was written afterwards and mentions that even Jedi knew of Force Storm. Fact.

"The EC says..."

It doesn't matter if the EC says it. The New Essential Chronology mentions it. "Sith Sorcery" is not technology. TOTJ also mentions the same, Sith Sorcery are dark side techniques of the Sith.

3. Use of Hyperbole.

Apparently, since the words "titan" and "divinity" were used, it means that no one can be compared to Sidious unless the same words were used.

Luke, another "titan" and "divinity" -- several years after he bested Sidious, no less -- was given all he could handle against the 4000 year old, half-mad ionized air particles of Exar Kun.

Such wonderful application of "titan" and "divinity."

4. No Logical Support.

You still did not account for the fact that Exar Kun became the most powerful force in the galaxy because of Sadow's notes. You did not account for Revan, Traya, Nihilus, and Sion raiding some remnant knowledge from the Ancient Sith and literally terrorizing the galaxy. You did not account for Freedon Nadd who learned from Sadow and was able to cast a pall on a planet of centuries, even after his death.

You assume that all the knowledge, despite them being "hunted to extinction," still exits.

You assume that Sidious knew Sith Sorcery and other long destroyed techniques.

You belittle the accomplishments of the Ancient Sith while you attempt -- rather shoddily -- to cover up for Sidious, such as:

"The Ancient Sith were owned by a few slaves."

But somehow, the argument, "Palpatine was benchpressed helplessly into a Reactor Core by a beaten, one-armed cyborg" doesn't count.

You compare the Ancient Sith's low showings to Sidious' best. Then you hide behind "there's no evidence" and act as if that's proof.

5. Logical Fallacies.

Irrelevant Misdirection. Begging the Question. Strawman Argument. Appeal to Belief. Burden of Proof. Confusing Cause and Effect. Hasty Generalization. Red Herring. Slippery Slope.

And that's just from the last few posts. Sorry, this ain't fly.

very nice..

Nicely said, Illustrious.

I'm surprised he mentioned the issue with Odan-Urr not seeing Ragnos when you SHOWED him the scan last time (I have the post in my profile quotes even, complete with the image) and I posted it again just yesterday.

I kept saying that Odan saw Ragnos, I don't see why lightsnake was arguing with scans.

It's that new SW canon policy- if you don't want to see it, it's not there.

touche

Originally posted by Illustrious
Grammatically, no it doesn't. Stylistically, no it wouldn't. The line would read "all known, all unknown, and all forgotten" if it were the case. Not only is the latter unambiguous, it is grammatically correct, stylistically more powerful, and puts the emphasis on all.

Combine that with the logical impossibility of him knowing it all, the difference between knowing and the capacity for usage and the fact that Sidious did not use them all means a defeated point, sorry.
An what does 'mastered' mean?



KotOR has all the swords being metal, Ragnos' blade in JK:JA is shown as metal. So you're saying Ludo is the only one with a crystal sword? They aren't crystal. There is no mention to them being crystal whatsoever. End of story.
I already conceded this point, and pointed to the original comic



I believe the term was "of our era." Nihilus obviously existed during her era.
And who was the 'we' of her sentence? Nor was Nihilius the norm by any stretch of the imagination



Did you not notice the screen when the other sith lords were crowning him the Dark Lord? There were 8 or so there.

That's why I said 96


We see Odan having a nightmare and the image he is depicted with is Ragnos.
The entirety of Odan's mentioned nightmares involve the Sith Empire...and this is after Ragnos is dead. Either way, though, it's a far cry from his death being felt across the galaxy. Sorgo and I argued this against TdTd a while back, who thought Ragnos's 'passing as a ghost' caused his nightmares



Now you're the final aribter on Luke's comment?

Luke says, "If Ragnos is resurrected...., we would need all of our strength to stop him."
He says 'will', after he discusses the battle plans and talks about stopping Ragnos's ressurection. The exact quote is: "If Ragnos is ressurected there's no telling what he might do. It will take all of our strength/forces (forgot which) to stop him."

Since when does Kreia calling them "titanic" and "making us look like children" mean just that era?
Since that's the only era Kreia's lived in?


"All known, previously unknown, and forgotten."

You suddenly become a loose constructionist for Sidious. The modifying "all" is not even carried over, and your belief is that Sidious knew all of them. You're suddenly using logical extrapolation for Sidious.
And it says he 'mastered' the said...and what else would all mean? Why exactly would it not apply? All at the beginning of the sentence, grammatically would apply to the rest, unless a 'some' or something is added

"Ragnos' sword, Sadow's ship, Sadow's amulet, etc."

Suddenly, even though they're possessive not one of them made their artifacts. Somehow, they all found these immensely powerful weapons on the ground.
I repeat: Is it definite they made them instead of comissioning a forgemaster or alchemist? The Falcon is frequently called 'Han's ship' and he didn't make it.

You switch over and become a strict constructionist with these arguments. If it's not explicitly mentioned in the comics, it didn't happen for the ancient Sith.

Biased argument.

Fine, I'll stop then, I admit it, you're correct here and it is wrong of me.

2. Illogical interpretation on canon.

DE, written before TOTJ, is untouchable. Even the DE sourcebook, a sourcebook for an RPG is completely passable. However, the story parts of the TOTJ companion, the NEC, and TOTJ itself clearly is not.

Illustrious, the author of the NEC clarified things, that's enough on that for me. And LFL itself retconned a part of TOTJ and the companion...plus, there's little to nothing in the DE sources that've been contradicted.

"There must be a retcon."

Sorry, if anything, DE was retconned. TOTJ was written afterwards and mentions that even Jedi knew of Force Storm. Fact.

And the DE handbook mentions no other force users than Palpatine have exhibited the FS

"The EC says..."

It doesn't matter if the EC says it. The New Essential Chronology mentions it. "Sith Sorcery" is not technology. TOTJ also mentions the same, Sith Sorcery are dark side techniques of the Sith.

And the NEC doesn't contradict the earlier source. I was arguing on Primus Guuld, not the Denarii, I conceded the Denarii part

3. Use of Hyperbole.

Apparently, since the words "titan" and "divinity" were used, it means that no one can be compared to Sidious unless the same words were used.

Luke, another "titan" and "divinity" -- several years after he bested Sidious, no less -- was given all he could handle against the 4000 year old, half-mad ionized air particles of Exar Kun.
You mean 'being attacked from both sides by Kyp Durron and Exar Kun who appeared seconds ago while Luke himself said he didn't want to fight Kyp?. And Luke's power was the same as Jacen's in DE, it lasted until Sidious was bested.


Such wonderful application of "titan" and "divinity."
Oh, as opposed to tremendous and frightening? Goes both ways.

4. No Logical Support.

You still did not account for the fact that Exar Kun became the most powerful force in the galaxy because of Sadow's notes. You did not account for Revan, Traya, Nihilus, and Sion raiding some remnant knowledge from the Ancient Sith and literally terrorizing the galaxy. You did not account for Freedon Nadd who learned from Sadow and was able to cast a pall on a planet of centuries, even after his death.

You assume that all the knowledge, despite them being "hunted to extinction," still exits.
What SPELL did Nadd cast? The dark side presence was because of his descendants continuously studying Sith magic. Nihilius and Sion also had abilities that had nothing to do with the Ancient.s..Nihilius's hunger, Sion's patchwork frame and his assassin gang...we know Sidious discovered a well of information from Sadow's notes and artifacts, among many other Ancient Sith, including their holocrons. Exar Kun was also a formidable force even before he picked up on the Sith teachings, and he had several years worth of study.

You assume that Sidious knew Sith Sorcery and other long destroyed techniques.
Pretty much because it's stated he did

You belittle the accomplishments of the Ancient Sith while you attempt -- rather shoddily -- to cover up for Sidious, such as:

"The Ancient Sith were owned by a few slaves."

But somehow, the argument, "Palpatine was benchpressed helplessly into a Reactor Core by a beaten, one-armed cyborg" doesn't count.

You compare the Ancient Sith's low showings to Sidious' best. Then you hide behind "there's no evidence" and act as if that's proof.
Fine, you're right. This is something I'll stop as well. However, like Sidious's screw ups, there are quite a few the Ancients need to answer for. The movies make it abundantly clear Sidious has numerous weaknesses: Overconfidence, extreme arrogance, god-complex, a complete lack of understanding love and devotion...his defeat by Vader was his error, Luke made his weakness clear earlier.

Thank you, Illustrious, you're absolutely right. I'll attempt to stop screwing up so much and stop the fanboyism that's been rampant in my arguments...only thing though: Did the TOTJ companion come out before or after GAOTS and FoTS?

Lightsnake, how many times have you heard "You are wrong" in a given day?

Let me put it this way, Td...when a person who claims a ghost can 'pass' says something, they tend to be ignored

Right, by you... Not by anybody else.. Wake up lightsnake, you were the only one with the problem, nobody else.. Good try though

Dude, sorgo was ripping into you on that

Sure he was... Whatever you say lightsnake.

Fine, next time I see him, I'll ask him to verify it

you do that lightsnake.

Stop with the damn trolling already.

who

Originally posted by tdtd
who
You

How could I even be trolling? DO some of you morons understand the concept of trolling?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And clarified to mean 'of that era'


No. It wasn't "clarified". Dan Wallace just did give you his personal opinion which does mean jack shit in the grand sheme of things. Tom Veitch said that he thought Ulic Quel-Droma was "wasted" as a character in the DLotS comics - still it happened.



The movie disagrees with you and since the movies are the ultimate level of canon you're pretty much pwned.



Show me the mentioning of Dol Gal-Ram here. He isn't mentioned ? What a surprise. And still you can't ignore that their are differences in the power levels of the Ancient Sith.



Where ? You gave us the quote and it said "all known, unknown, and forgotten" means he knew all known (in his era) some unknown to others and some forgotten. And nothing else. It is shown in the actual sources that he was far away from mastering everything and knowing everything.



Again: Irrelevant missdirection. You still failed to give me a Sith who was able to instakill Jedi Council members descriping Sidious grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening". Exar Kun was able to run around on an entire planet filled with Jedi without being recognized as DLotS.



Did you miss the fact that he pocessed his first body in DE for some years and you see him being an old man already in the beginning of the DE comics - using a clone body which was not sabotaged ?



Irrelevant missdirection and appeal to redicule. What would Sadow and Kressh care about the opinion of the other Sith Lords who aren't even present ? And we see Kressh putting his blade right through a wall.



Your point is that you have no point. We have one example of an Ancient Sith creating a weapon for another ancient Sith. We know that Sadow was very proficient in Sith Alchemy (given his mutated Massassi as well as the beast Kun defeated) and same for Ragnos. So there is nothing to suggest that they didn't created their amulets / weapons on their own.



According to the original source we have a bunch of people plundering Yavin 4 (KotoR) and then we have Kun who didn't notice any powerful presence until Luke's students did show up. Unless you want to assume that Sidious is somehow weaker than Luke's students you're again talking out of your ass. Not even talking about the fact that still some knowledge was lost on Ossus.



Irrelevant missdirection again. It doesn't matter what Sidious subordinates did. It's only said that Sidious received the weapons from the dead hands of his enemies. Who did kill those enemies ? Not said. From what we know Sidious did never enter a direct confrontation with a Jedi past ROTS.



And somehow the more violent Dark Side techniques which are the offspring of said techniques are weaker ? We do have force drain (which is the Sith version of force block - developed so much that it can kill the victim), an ability to slow down enemies body functions (kind of Moricho) and of course something to cause confusion / desease being used on the victim (kind of Malachia). So even if the techniques don't have the same name they are known to the Sith.



We know that Ziost and especially Korriban were plundered 4,000 years before Sidious was even alive. We know that Sith spirits lose parts of their memory (see Pall) and we have Malachor V and Veeshas Tuwan (Sith library on Arkania) completely destroyed. You exegerrating Sidious knowledge. Period.



Lmao. The Sith Empire included worlds in the outer rim (Ziost, Korriban), the Mid Rim (Ambria) and even the Colony Sector (Arkania) meaning it was really huge. Your assumption there is bullshit.



The point was that those Jedi went to the Sith before the destruction of Ossus and that the Sith Lords stored knowledge in places that were completely destroyed before Sidious was around meaning that there was knowledge Sidious simply couldn't get.



Irrelevant missdirections aren't substitue for power too.



They weren't talking about sending them on a vacation before. Ever heared about honor among thieves, warriors, assassins ? Does somebody laugh at it ?



She calls all people from her own era "children" compared to the Ancient Sith and this statement clearly includes Nihilus.



No. The moment Ooroo dropped himself into the Massassi poisoning and killing their commander as well as their best fighters was when the tight turned. Before that the defenders didn't have a chance - even with using battle meditation.



Odan sensing Ragnos passing into his grave on Koros Major (core world) when Ragnos was on Korriban (Outer Rim) is halfway across the Galaxy. And Ludo / Sadow fighting was intense enough to call the dead Ragnos back from his great. They weren't just felt by the living - even by the dead.



Quote: "The force is trembeling". And all we have to make the force trembeling is Ragnos passing into his grave. No - having Ragnos in the very same picture isn't a hint, genious.



Personal opinion of an author isn't canon. Period.



Luke is talking about an already resurrected Ragnos. Period. A historian writing down the story of the universe 25 years after Sidious death is a great source on Sidious and much more the ancient Sith. haha.



No. The academy compared to a weaker version of Luke, Leia and unborn Anakin.

And the description applies to that era and that era alone. The now he is dead is a dead giveaway.

Except the movies don't contradict the aforementioned.

Of course not. But Dor is still one a Sith Lord and Naga is described as preserving his life as do the other Sith Lords

The funny thing is how you try to put some crap about 'his era'...where is 'his era' mentioned? And later on it said he'd mastered every technique of the Jedi and Sith. Along with every aspect of the forc.e Canon>Your opinion

So Exar knew Quey'Tek too? Good for him. Sidious's power is described as 'godlike'. Better for him

Ahhh, irrelevant misdirection much? "Umm, he only pried the weapons from their hands personally, was stated to have faced them in combat...but he didn't kill them!"

Exagerrating Sidious's knowledge? Canon states he'd mastered every aspect of the force in all its guises. Underestimation much, Nai?

96 planets, Nai...considerably less than 'hundreds'

Luke found an intact library on Ossus, point being? And Apparently Kun not feeling powerful Force users was retconned. See: Complete Locations, states he had plundered Yavin 4 and bedecked his chambers with ancient Sith heirlooms...and Ragnos's memory was fine in JA.

Great, honor...from a murderous, backstabbing race that happily subjugates a primitive people, that makes so much sense.

Where was that 'we' referring to Nihilius?

hat's Kirrek, how about Coruscant? when the illusions vanished, the fight was pretty much over for the Sith.

That's all great. Were the shockwaves of their duel felt by every force sensitive in the galaxy? No? Okay then. Were the shockwaves of their duel causing imperials to drop down dead? No? Ok then

"The force is trembling...images...what have I forseen?" Nothing about Ragnos, in fact, all Odan says is he dreamt of the Sith Empire.

According to said author, he was working from documents given to him by LFL. And Luke's big speech is about stopping Ragnos from being ressurected...and look at the nice hypocrisy, Luke's an expert on the ancient Sith?

Academy compared to every Jedi who lived? Or the entire lightside of the force-which'lls till be the lightside of the force no matter how many times you try to deny it?- Ok then.

Sorry, Nai, but I'm taken the written canon word over yours

Someone give me a "pwnt" picture.

And right on cue