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Two powerful beings Magic Power vs Cosmic Power

Scarlet Witch- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlet_Witch


vs


Genis-Vell- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genis-Vell

I'd honestly have to say Scarlet Witch. Their output is almost the same, but the nature of their powers are diffenent. Wanda controls causality and probabilities. If she consciously willed Genis's powers to cease it's lights out.

But then again, it's also about who strikes first.

And Genis has the speed advantage here. I mean, couldn't he just kill her before she realises that the match has started?

Apart from speedblitz this might be a great battle. Definitely worth reading, not too shabby thread, golem.

Wanda aint shit but a mutie, Genis is a Cosmic level guy, wandas powers probably wouldnt even work....

Righto then.

Originally posted by Tshern
Righto then. damn right

Unless Genis is beyond the concepts of causality and probability Wanda is more than likely going to be able to effect him. She did pull Dormammu out of nothingness and use him as a "weapon" of sorts.


Saying "She's just a mutie" is ignorant.

Franklin Richards and Jean Grey are mutants also.

i'm a genis fan boy but keep in mind atlas killed him so it could effect him

God... I'd love to say Genis because I'm HARDCORE into him (Obviously)... but without a speedblitz I'd say that Wanda shows him one four...

Although Cosmic Awareness might play a factor in this...

I just thought I'd add, how come the cosmic awarness didnt snap Genis out of all the HoM madness. Does that mean Wanda's reality warp trumps his cosmic awarness?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Unless Genis is beyond the concepts of causality and probability Wanda is more than likely going to be able to effect him. She did pull Dormammu out of nothingness and use him as a "weapon" of sorts.


Saying "She's just a mutie" is ignorant.

Franklin Richards and Jean Grey are mutants also.

Wanda did no such thing Illadelph. Dont believe all that Mr Demigawd spouts.

Nowhere in Dormammus latest bio (from last month) is there a mention of Dormammu being captured and used as it appearred he was. It was all just a construct created by Wanda, just like the Kree Army was as Iron Man stated was likely the case in the Dissassembled finale.

First off, GS, you know me better than to think I'd quote hearsay as fact. Even if it's my colleague demigawd. You don't see me quoting things you, leonidas or Blair Wind say as facts either. I form my own opinions.

Secondly, I read the comic, and that looked and acted like Dormammu.

Now, you're saying she created her own fully functional Dormammu and Kree Army "constructs", out of nothingness, under her own power, but because it's not mentioned in Dormammu's bio that the real Dormammu appeared in the Disassembled Storyline, and Ironman, an "inventor", hypothesized that the Kree Army were simply constructs, that this is the factual account of what happened?

I say that's a hollow explanation GS.

Fact of the matter is Wanda sloppily re-wrote the 616 under her own power, and depowered millions of mutants world wide. And yes, the effects of her power did spill over to other realities though it wasn't through Wanda's conscious effort. It was a "possibility" and it happened. That's Wanda's power.

Unless Genis is above probability, possibility, and causality, Wanda may have his number if she can beat him on the draw. Possibly even if she can't, it's a possibility his attack could miss or simply empower Wanda even further.

She's a walking "What If?".

And another thing, there's no need to subvertly downgrade the feats of other high end Marvel characters to indirectly protect Jean's status as top b*tch. She still wears a glass crown.

"Jgggggg!!!!!!"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Wanda did no such thing Illadelph. Dont believe all that Mr Demigawd spouts.

Nowhere in Dormammus latest bio (from last month) is there a mention of Dormammu being captured and used as it appearred he was. It was all just a construct created by Wanda, just like the Kree Army was as Iron Man stated was likely the case in the Dissassembled finale.

It may not have been said on his bio, but you cant refute the fact that Dr Strange flat out said that only Wanda's power could have summoned Dormammu, plus it did not look like a Wanda constuct as Dormammu seemed pretty pissed ot be forced out of his realm, and thought Dr Strange was responsible. It was probably such a small event that it wasnt worth mentioning in his bio.

did wanda really have power that spanned the multiverse?

Originally posted by Mider
did wanda really have power that spanned the multiverse?

People are still arguing whether it was directy from her power or not. But the fact is, during her first reality warp, she caused a "chaos wave" that nearly brought the multiverse crumbling down.

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
People are still arguing whether it was directy from her power or not. But the fact is, during her first reality warp, she caused a "chaos wave" that nearly brought the multiverse crumbling down.

But some say it re-bounded off of another dimension.

Originally posted by illadelph12
First off, GS, you know me better than to think I'd quote hearsay as fact. Even if it's my colleague demigawd. You don't see me quoting things you, leonidas or Blair Wind say as facts either. I form my own opinions.

Secondly, I read the comic, and that looked and acted like Dormammu.

Now, you're saying she created her own fully functional Dormammu and Kree Army "constructs", out of nothingness, under her own power, but because it's not mentioned in Dormammu's bio that the real Dormammu appeared in the Disassembled Storyline, and Ironman, an "inventor", hypothesized that the Kree Army were simply constructs, that this is the factual account of what happened?

I say that's a hollow explanation GS.

You may have read the comic Illadelph but that doesnt give you the excuse to present assumptions as fact.

Nowhere in Dormammus latest bio (from last month) is there a mention of him being used and manipulated in that way. Dormammu being taken control of and teleported into the 616 dimension to fight Strange is a major event. If it was Dormammu it would have been mentioned in his bio. It was not. Thats the crux of the matter. On top of that if you were to read Excalibur #14 you wou would see that that wasnt the only time Wanda used a construct of Dormammu and pitted him up against Strange.

As for dismissing my statement pertaining to Iron Mans comments and that the Kree Army that we saw were mere constructs, well sorry to say this Ill but were you to have a lil peek at the last Wanda bio (Off HBK Women 2005) you'd actually see the point stated. They were constructs. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Fact of the matter is Wanda sloppily re-wrote the 616 under her own power, and depowered millions of mutants world wide. And yes, the effects of her power did spill over to other realities though it wasn't through Wanda's conscious effort. It was a "possibility" and it happened. That's Wanda's power.

Wanda did sloppily rewrite reality, however its both the scale of her rewrite and her relationship with the "chaos wave" thats in dispute.

At the end of the day the ONLY reference to the scale of the reality warp ever stated on panel was by Roma the multiversal guardian. Given her status im inclined to believe her when she said it was a "global alteration". With that in mind until her new bio comes out in 6 months or theres another on panel statement referring to the scale of the warp then you simply cannot present the OPINION that it was universe spanning. While its effects were certainly felt way beyond Earth 616 the actual warp as far as we've been told was global.

As for the chaos wave. Nowhere in either the house of m core title or the connected side titles was there a reference connecting Wanda directly to the chaos wave. While it stands to reason that her tamperings were the catalyst behind the wave (as supported by Romas comments on the trans temporal tsunami resultant from a global alteration) that doesnt make it a feat of hers. The resultant damage from me lighting a match in a gas filled room or me yodelling in the Alps isnt something i accomplished directly with my own power, it isnt a feat of mine. My actions merely set off something. Romas comments lend more support to the idea that the chaos wave was something sparked off by Wandas amateur tamperings and NOT that it was the spillover of Wandas power into other realities. Theres no evidence for that whatsoever. For all we know it was just the tear in the walls of reality which were responsible for the wave. Legions actions in Legion Quest caused a tear in the walls of reality and as Jahf stated this caused a wave which threatened to collapse the multiverse. Sound familiar? Thats my point. The scale of her powers is too undetermined to make such claims.

You need to remember that all that is possible isnt necessarily achievable under Wandas power. Thats a naive assumption. Some things may be beyond the scope of her ability to bring about. It may be possible to turn the Living Tribunal into a golden retriever. However can Wanda tap into enough energies to allow her to achieve a feat of that scale? Who knows? One couldnt and shouldnt make such claims until a conclusive scale for the conscious application of Wandas abilities has been determined.

Even if it was determined that the wave was actually the spillover of her energies into other realities it it wouldnt mean that she could consciously achieve the same thing. Consciously manipulating and applying vast energies is totally different to generating them and allowing them to spin out of control. Just like Wanda, Storm doesnt generate her own energies (on the most part) she taps into and manipulates outside forces. If Storm was to generate a storm and then leave it and go to lunch and eventually forget about it, leaving it to cause havoc across the entire States for weeks, would the resultant damage be a feat of Storms or something she could do with a conscious application of her powers?

Certainly not in one attempt.

Because the storm raged over the entire United States could it be claimed that Storm has continental range?


Originally posted by illadelph12
Unless Genis is above probability, possibility, and causality, Wanda may have his number if she can beat him on the draw. Possibly even if she can't, it's a possibility his attack could miss or simply empower Wanda even further.

She's a walking "What If?".

Youre getting too caught up in what Wandas powerset possibly entails and forgetting about what shes actually been able to conclusively achieve with said powerset. Genis would win for the simple fact that Wanda is still human and has the inherent weaknesses (durability, reactions, etc) I dont know if youre suggesting that Wanda could use her powers to make him miss but isnt that a conscious application of her powers which would still require a lot more time than it takes Genis to make even multiple attacks. The man does after all possess lightspeed flight abilities, cosmic awareness and superhuman reactions.

Genis wins the majority.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And another thing, there's no need to subvertly downgrade the feats of other high end Marvel characters to indirectly protect Jean's status as top b*tch. She still wears a glass crown.

"Jgggggg!!!!!!"

Now this is what im talking about!! This is what ive been working towards. A lil fire, a bit of passion from Illadelph.

Thats not what i was doing at all. Thats just a side effect of what i was doing, albeit a most desirable one. Ive already explained myself plenty of times so theres no need for me to do so again. If you believe thats the reasoning behind my recent actions then so be it, but given that my arguments are sound whilst im doing what im doing i really couldnt care.

As for the Jggggg reference, that far from equates to a glass crown status. The death was a blatant plot device given that:

a) Its stated in her bios that she can alter her durability to any level she desires

b) her past durability feats as Phoenix

c) The fact that shes the greatest telepathic force in Marvel

d) It was stated constantly throughout the series that she dies to be reborn and in the same issue she said she had work to do and she didnt know how long she would be allowed to remain in reality.

With all that in mind and given the fact that as per forum rules PIS/CIS are quite usefully not brought into the equation, her crown is as solid as Beyonces thighs.

Originally posted by Mider
did wanda really have power that spanned the multiverse?

Nope. She warped an undetermined amount of 616, be it just the earth (as Roma said) or the universe as people would like to believe. This in turn sparked off the chaos wave. It wasnt a conscious effort, theres no evidence to support she could consciously achieve what the chaos wave did. All we know is that her tamperings with reality set it off and it went on to cause havoc in a number of other realities before being stopped by half a dozen mutants.

"her crown is as solid as Beyonces thighs"
You have great taste my friend.......euro

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
People are still arguing whether it was directy from her power or not. But the fact is, during her first reality warp, she caused a "chaos wave" that nearly brought the multiverse crumbling down.

And yet as its conclusively not something she did with the conscious application of her power and as theres no evidence to support she could consciously apply her power on that scale, its irrelevant as either way it wasnt a feat of hers. Just something she initiated after a botch job. Wandas conclusive feats are warping reality on earth 616 (possibly the universe, although one would have thought the abstracts would have gotten involved if that were the case), creating constructs of the Kree Army and as it appears, Dormammu.

We'll have to wait until her bio comes out in a few months to set the story straight.

Originally posted by S.S
"her crown is as solid as Beyonces thighs"
You have great taste my friend.......euro



http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/7947/04hd6yx.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/7947/04hd6yx.jpg
droolio

1) Thanks for the Beyonce pic. To bad she sleeps with camels.

2) Long essay.

It's still of no substance GS. The Chaos Wave was a possibility realized via Wanda's power. You can't "yodel" a Chaos Wave. You can, however, cause one if your power is to manipulate probabilities. No matter how much you try to downplay it, it happened, and it was a direct result of Wanda's power. The fact it was due to incompetence on her part doesn't change the fact it happened. And now that it's a known possibility, there's logically a possibility of it happening again. That is the very nature of Wanda's power.

3) You always bait me into these damn debates!!!!

4) Wanda can, by reflex, cause opponents to miss, spontaneously combust, or cause their powers to short out in her presence without exerting an extraordinate amount of concentration and effort.

5) Wanda has withstood lethal blows on a few occasions due to her powers. Even to the point of seemingly ressurecting herself.

6) Feats are as subjective as WWE matches. Someone's always jobbing and someone's always the beneficiary of exaggerated potency. I see feats for what they are, and take the character's actual abilities into account more than their feats. That's why I could care less what people say, Cloak and/or Nightcrawler would kill Hulk even though Hulk is infinitely more powerful.

7) "Jggggg!!!!!" = Defeat.

8) See #7.

9)

Hypocrite.

How can you be the champion of using plot driven canon 'feats' in every debate, and yet say "per forum rules PIS/CIS are quite usefully not brought into the equation" and claim Jean's death as such.

Jean's died on a few occasions in canon material.

You can't have it both ways GS.

You can't cry "plot device" when it comes to Jean being killed by Xorn, and yet Living Tribunal trying to kill Korvac indirectly using a supernova that Korvac is capable of shielding himself from shows he's "weak". Jean's simply been proven time and again to be incompetent with her powers, and also subject to possibility, because it's possible for her to die, possible for her to shatter, possible for her to be manipulated, and possible for her powers to be occupied by someone else.

All canon.

10) The chick wears a glass Baby Phat crown from a swap meet, and I hope Necrom comes back again and breaks out the KY Jelly for Jean like he did for the Phoenix in Excalibur. Retcon's be damned!

11) Mad Jim Jaspers would f*ck Jean up too.

Originally posted by illadelph12
1) Thanks for the Beyonce pic. To bad she sleeps with camels.

It hurts me deeper than you know.

Originally posted by illadelph12
2) Long essay.

Dont hate.

I actually read this last night, but i came to an unthinkable conclusion, therefore i decided to sleep on it and see how i was feeling in the morning. Im up and unfortunately for some ive only gone and come to the same conclusion....im actually gonna have to own my friend

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's still of no substance GS. The Chaos Wave was a possibility realized via Wanda's power. You can't "yodel" a Chaos Wave. You can, however, cause one if your power is to manipulate probabilities. No matter how much you try to downplay it, it happened, and it was a direct result of Wanda's power. The fact it was due to incompetence on her part doesn't change the fact it happened. And now that it's a known possibility, there's logically a possibility of it happening again. That is the very nature of Wanda's power.

You have to be very careful with your wording here my friend because it sounds like youre saying that the Chaos Wave was a direct application of Wandas power. If so, that notion is completely unsupported on panel therefore it is irrelevant here in debate. Mere opinion. ------>

The chaos wave was possibly one of two things:

a) The result of a tear in the "branes" between realities (a la "Legion Quest" and as strongly implied by Roma)

b) A spillover of the energies Wanda tapped into to warp reality on Earth 616.

What holds true for both possibilities is that the resultant destruction wasnt a feat for Wanda. Her actions proved to be the catalyst which resulted in the chaos wave. Theres no evidence whatsoever to say that Wanda could consciously generate and maintain a wave of destruction to sweep over the multiverse. Sure she could be the catalyst and set one off again in the future, thats not in debate and stands to reason, however doing so doesnt make her anything beyond global/universal level. Setting something off and letting it spin out of control doesnt make the resultant destruction a feat of yours. My avalanche analogy was perfectly suitable. No you cant yodel a chaos wave but then Wanda didnt directly generate one either. It was however the result of a direct application of her power (the warping of earth 616) which in turn brought about as a side effect either one of the aforementioned possibilities. Hence the yodelling in the mountains resulting in a wave of destruction (the avalanche) and said avalanche sweeping over and destroying nearby towns, killing people who would otherwise own you in a direct one on one confrontation, basically causing destruction you couldnt bring about (or at least havent shown to be able to) directly by yodelling. Wandas actions merely proved to be the catalyst for the wave and as with before it can easily be stopped without the interference of any higher powers.

Another thing most people seem to misinterpret is what the chaos wave actually did. It never went around warping other realities, as stated on panel it went around and eroded the branes between other realities which resulted in a loss of order causing elements of said realities to merge together as we saw in the Otherworld scene in Uncanny X-men 462.


Originally posted by illadelph12
3) You always bait me into these damn debates!!!!



Originally posted by illadelph12
4) Wanda can, by reflex, cause opponents to miss, spontaneously combust, or cause their powers to short out in her presence without exerting an extraordinate amount of concentration and effort.

Wandas reflexes are human. That was my point in my previous posts and it remains my point now. Genis could attack her multiple times before she even registered what was happening.

Originally posted by illadelph12
5) Wanda has withstood lethal blows on a few occasions due to her powers. Even to the point of seemingly ressurecting herself.

Precisely. Due to her powers. To protect or seemingly resurrect herself would require her to consciously apply her powers, she would have to think. Genis is a cosmic being, Wanda as standard has human durability. He could incinerate her or teleport her head off before she could react.

Originally posted by illadelph12
6) Feats are as subjective as WWE matches. Someone's always jobbing and someone's always the beneficiary of exaggerated potency. I see feats for what they are, and take the character's actual abilities into account more than their feats. That's why I could care less what people say, Cloak and/or Nightcrawler would kill Hulk even though Hulk is infinitely more powerful.

It is true what you say to an extent. However what you mustnt do is ignore feats and on panel depictions entirely in favour of looking at their stated powerset and going overboard with speculation on what you think said abilities would enable them to do. It doesnt work like that im afraid. Wanda can manipulate probabilities, causality itself, however based on those abilities you cant assume and then try to treat as fact here that absolutely anything thats possible Wanda can bring about. Thats just naive. Not all possibilities require the same output to bring about, some may require more energy than is within Wandas abilities to tap into and employ. You just dont know. Therefore all we can do is use feats as a guideline for the extents of her abilities. Wandas conclusive high level feats as far as we know are warping earth 616, (possibly the universe), therefore it would be naive to think she could materialize any probability dramatically beyond that global (?) scale.

Please remember that she stated herself that to consciously warp reality as she did and maintain it was beyond her ability to hold together, hence why she brought about house of M, with the moral support of her brother and Xavier to co-ordinate the employment of her abilities.

Originally posted by illadelph12
7) "Jggggg!!!!!" = Defeat.

8) See #7.

9)

Hypocrite.

How can you be the champion of using plot driven canon 'feats' in every debate, and yet say "per forum rules PIS/CIS are quite usefully not brought into the equation" and claim Jean's death as such.

Jean's died on a few occasions in canon material.

You can't have it both ways GS.

Whatever are you talking about Ill? Yeah Phoenix has died on a few occasions. The first time was on the moon at the end of the Dark P Saga and it was self inflicted, because she wanted end her physical existence at that time. The second time was when Xorneto killed her physical body.

As stated in her bio and as demonstrated on panel Phoenix can have any power she wants, generate any energy she wants, in any amount. While she is ultimately totally indestructible in essence as stated she can create a physical body for herself and make herself as durable as she wishes. Given that power set, her feats and the fact that it was stated time and time again in the run that it is the nature and way of the Phoenix to die to be reborn and that Jean had work to do elsewhere, her death in New X-men was a plot device. Her deaths are within canon however her power set and her feats achieved with it are also canon which is the crux of the matter.


Originally posted by illadelph12
You can't cry "plot device" when it comes to Jean being killed by Xorn, and yet Living Tribunal trying to kill Korvac indirectly using a supernova that Korvac is capable of shielding himself from shows he's "weak". Jean's simply been proven time and again to be incompetent with her powers, and also subject to possibility, because it's possible for her to die, possible for her to shatter, possible for her to be manipulated, and possible for her powers to be occupied by someone else.

All canon.

Ive already explained my stance on LT in that Korvac What If so i really shouldnt have to do so again. It is not my opinion that LT is weak and i never used that What If to support a claim that he is weak. In fact ive spent the past week arguing against people who have been underrating LT as a result of misinterpreting the point i was trying to make. What i did use that What If for (along with many other LT appearances) was to argue the case that LTs options are limited when it comes to confrontation. His role comes first so he cannot engage in any confrontation that will require an output that could compromise his role as protector of realities. Hence his tendency to employ the heroes of a universe to deal with confrontation, talk his way out of a confrontation, lack of high level output in confrontation and tendency to seal threats off which could necessitate such an output. Given that thats what i was arguing your point pertaining to my hypocrisy is null and void.

As Phoenix, Jean has access to any power she desires, at any level she desires. That point is stated in her bio. Her only limit is her human imagination, but at the same time she can forsake her humanity and become an energy form as also stated in her bio. As stated and shown on panel she can be guided by the Force or simply let the Phoenix consciousness take over. Jean died because she allowed herself to, she was manipulated by Mastermind because she shut down her power via psychic circuit breakers. When you have a character with such abilities the only way you are going to beat it is via plot devices. That is the very reason why Jean was killed in the first place, read any John Byrne interview pertaining to the matter and you will see for yourself.

According to forum rules any character that has it within their abilities to regenerate or resurrect themselves can do so within battle and carry on fighting without that being considered a loss. So in a forum battle Jean could never lose against Wanda NEVER!! Mwahahahaha!!

Originally posted by illadelph12
10) The chick wears a glass Baby Phat crown from a swap meet, and I hope Necrom comes back again and breaks out the KY Jelly for Jean like he did for the Phoenix in Excalibur. Retcon's be damned!

Dont turn bitter on me now Ill. As for that crown status...heres another pic:

Solid

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/2238/beyoncej21bh.th.jpg

Solid

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/1680/troops39a5yl.th.jpg

GOOD LORD!!!

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4056/wma682lo.th.jpg



Originally posted by illadelph12
11) Mad Jim Jaspers would f*ck Jean up too.

Never gonna happen. Her being isnt determined by any factors he or Wanda can control. They would have nothing to work with im afraid. Whereas all reality is brought about by Phoenix anyway. Without the Force present in reality as stated on panel there would be nothing but a void with no potential for life whatsoever. His and Wandas very existence is dependent on Phoenix and dont you forget that sonny.

Plus she can employ reality warping abilities if she so desired. The only difference being that hers would operate on a far greater scale than the little mutants.

At Full Potential, Genis Marvel doesn't even need to be near Wanda to kill her. He could make her believe she died and that in itself would kill her. This is due to Cosmic Powers, which is supposed to be the most powerful in existence. Just my little ole' opinion.

Genis can "manipulate the electrical synapses of brain. Convincing them that annihilated them." As stated in Captain Marvel, issue 56.

That alone should be enough (combined with Cosmic Awareness) to take her down.

Originally posted by Rick/Genis
This is due to Cosmic Powers, which is supposed to be the most powerful in existence.

Didnt understand this bit. What are you referring to? What is the most powerful existence?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Didnt understand this bit. What are you referring to? What is the most powerful existence?

GS, where would you put Wanda? Would you put her beyond let's say Odin in power level, what she could do?
I would say she has greater power than Genis, I really don't care if he is a cosmic being.

Originally posted by Xplosive
GS, where would you put Wanda? Would you put her beyond let's say Odin in power level, what she could do?
I would say she has greater power than Genis, I really don't care if he is a cosmic being.

Oh yeah, shes definitely greater in power than Genis, by aloooong way, but despite her much greater power shes still human and as such she'll lose due to her durability and her reaction time. Its not all about power.

Even Genis would lose to a plot device like HoM Wanda.

Originally posted by Templares
Even Genis would lose to a plot device like HoM Wanda.

This isnt the comics. This is a forum debate. We dont account for PIS/CIS here. Wanda has human durability and human reactions, despite being ridiculously more powerful than Genis she would get incinerated before she even registers whats happening.

Originally posted by Rick/Genis
God... I'd love to say Genis because I'm HARDCORE into him (Obviously)... but without a speedblitz I'd say that Wanda shows him one four...

Although Cosmic Awareness might play a factor in this...

Pretty much. This matchup is hard to read. Awareness & action before probabilities make the fight over?

Originally posted by roughrider
Pretty much. This matchup is hard to read. Awareness & action before probabilities make the fight over?

The fight wouldnt be like that at all. According to forum rules the characters at least have basic knowledge of each other before the fight. Genis would know about how powerful she is and as a result would just take her out via a speedblitz. Her human reaction time and human durability let the side down big time.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh yeah, shes definitely greater in power than Genis, by aloooong way, but despite her much greater power shes still human and as such she'll lose due to her durability and her reaction time. Its not all about power.

I agree on that, and that is the only way Genis could win. But otherwise Wanda should win, I mean she could take him out with no effort.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Genis she would get incinerated before she even registers whats happening.

You don't know that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The fight wouldnt be like that at all. According to forum rules the characters at least have basic knowledge of each other before the fight. Genis would know about how powerful she is and as a result would just take her out via a speedblitz. Her human reaction time and human durability let the side down big time.

Maybe she would immediaetly release her power, than bye bye Genis and he would be worhtless.

Thera are more scenarios, but I give this to Wanda.

Originally posted by Xplosive


You don't know that.

Its a possibility. Considering forum rules its the most likely one. They'll go into the battle knowing the basics about each other. Genis has cosmically enhanced reactions times and moves at the speed of light. The speed of thought is ridiculously slower. Even at multiple mach speeds thats a possibility. Do the math. Or more simply just look at Quicksilver. Genis can incinerate her body with a single blast (given her human durability) before she can react (given her human reactions)



Originally posted by Xplosive
Maybe she would immediaetly release her power, than bye bye Genis and he would be worhtless.

Thera are more scenarios, but I give this to Wanda.

Immediately from her perspective. You need to remember that. Unfortunately for her due to her reaction times Genis could have attacked her multiple times before she could lift a finger.

Untrue.

Jean's physical form has been killed and manipulated on various occasions. Mad Jim Jasper's would **** Jean up. Xorn gave her a stroke in combat, and he's no where near as potent as Jasper's is.

All canon. Jean is susceptible. Forcing her back into the Phoenix Egg constitutes a victory.

She's susceptible to their powers whether you like it or not.

And another thing, Jean's telekinetic "re-writing" of a universe's timeline that you trump as a major feat was simply Jean manipulating Scott's past thoughts from the White Hot Room to head off a divergent future timeline, she didn't change the universe electron by electron.

And you know your essays won't shut me up, I'll always find a hole to slap your girl, my friend. Do you really want to do this again? We're better as allies than as opponents.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its a possibility. Considering forum rules its the most likely one. They'll go into the battle knowing the basics about each other. Genis has cosmically enhanced reactions times and moves at the speed of light. The speed of thought is ridiculously slower. Even at multiple mach speeds thats a possibility. Do the math. Or more simply just look at Quicksilver. Genis can incinerate her body with a single blast (given her human durability) before she can react (given her human reactions)





Immediately from her perspective. You need to remember that. Unfortunately for her due to her reaction times Genis could have attacked her multiple times before she could lift a finger.

Untrue GS.

Wanda's powers also work as an involuntary response to protect her from danger. She can "unconsciously" cause Genis, who is already prone to mental instability, to have a mental episode before he's able to attack without willing the probability. For her to consciously map out a desired outcome takes some thought on her end, but spontaneous effects are also prevalent in Wanda's canon portrayal.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Untrue.

Jean's physical form has been killed and manipulated on various occasions. Mad Jim Jasper's would **** Jean up. Xorn gave her a stroke in combat, and he's no where near as potent as Jasper's is.

All canon. Jean is susceptible. Forcing her back into the Phoenix Egg constitutes a victory.

She's susceptible to their powers whether you like it or not.

And another thing, Jean's telekinetic "re-writing" of a universe's timeline that you trump as a major feat was simply Jean manipulating Scott's past thoughts from the White Hot Room to head off a divergent future timeline, she didn't change the universe electron by electron.

And you know your essays won't shut me up, I'll always find a hole to slap your girl, my friend. Do you really want to do this again? We're better as allies than as opponents.

that depends on who you ask . . .

Originally posted by illadelph12
Untrue.

Jean's physical form has been killed and manipulated on various occasions. Mad Jim Jasper's would **** Jean up. Xorn gave her a stroke in combat, and he's no where near as potent as Jasper's is.

All canon. Jean is susceptible. Forcing her back into the Phoenix Egg constitutes a victory.

She's susceptible to their powers whether you like it or not.

She was susceptible to Xorneto due to plot device. Her bio states she can give herself any level of durability she wishes or give herself any power. The woman can ressurrect herself straight away if she wishes. The womans the greatest telepathic force in Marvel. With that in mind her death at Xornetos hands wasnt due to weakness or a susceptibility because it is within her abilities to make herself above all forms of harm.

Forcing her back into the Phoenix egg does not constitute a victory if it is within Jeans ability to bring herself back. Please read the rules.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And another thing, Jean's telekinetic "re-writing" of a universe's timeline that you trump as a major feat was simply Jean manipulating Scott's past thoughts from the White Hot Room to head off a divergent future timeline, she didn't change the universe electron by electron.

Completely untrue. Jean amputated the Here comes tomorrow future timeline effectively dooming the 616 universe. With no future it was left in a static state, she'd orphaned it by cutting it away from the rest of the multiverse. She was advised to grow the universe a new future. She is then told by the Phoenix Consciousness that telekinetic control of all of those atoms isnt easy even for the White Crown Phoenix. The scene shows atoms appearing in the palm of her hand, slowly forming over the panels into what is stated to be the "badly wounded orphan universe. " She reformed it in the palm of her hand atom by atom hence the Phoenix conssciousness' reference and the on panel depiction of it slowly coming tigether in her palm. She then grows the universe a new future by psionically reaching into said universe and changing Scotts reaction to Emma, hence changing history. If you want scans i'll happily provide them.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And you know your essays won't shut me up, I'll always find a hole to slap your girl, my friend. Do you really want to do this again? We're better as allies than as opponents.

We're still allies, that doesnt mean we have to agree on everything does it.

I'll be back later. I look forward to your reply.

Firstly, I've read and am well versed with the forum rules. Forcing Jean into the egg is like killing Doomsday. Sure, they can come back, but you still defeated them.

Secondly, Jean's physical being is the limitation on her Phoenix abilities. She can be defeated, she doesn't always embody "godlike" perceptions or actions, and she's emotionally imabalanced.

Herego, she is susceptible.

And yeah, it's best that we don't always see eye to eye. There's always a need for worthy opposition.

She influenced Cyclop's mind so that a divergent future timeline wouldn't come to pass. Bishop and Cable have done the same thing without telepathy. They used a time machine.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Firstly, I've read and am well versed with the forum rules. Forcing Jean into the egg is like killing Doomsday. Sure, they can come back, but you still defeated them.

Secondly, Jean's physical being is the limitation on her Phoenix abilities. She can be defeated, she doesn't always embody "godlike" perceptions or actions, and she's emotionally imabalanced.

Herego, she is susceptible.

Youre correct. Her human form can be the limitation to her abilities, however said form can still endow itself with any power and manipulate any energies in any amount. On top of that said form can transform into the hawk like energy form at will and has access to the Phoenix Consciousness which can guide it or take over its form if need be. All as stated on panel.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And yeah, it's best that we don't always see eye to eye. There's always a need for worthy opposition.

Wouldnt have it any other way. There was purpose behind the goading.

Originally posted by illadelph12
She influenced Cyclop's mind so that a divergent future timeline wouldn't come to pass. Bishop and Cable have done the same thing without telepathy. They used a time machine.

Thats what i said when i said she psionically reached into said universe she held in the palm of her hand and changed his reaction to Emma. That was after having materialised said universe in the palm of her telekinetically as depicted on panel.

Forcing Jean back into the egg (presuming Wanda could do it or is given the chance to do it) would not kill Jean and as Jean is capable of returning under her own power then it does NOT constitute as a win.

And?

They used an unnecessarily grandiose image to depict Jean mentally manipulating Cyclops's feelings for Emma to avert a future disaster caused by Scott. That's all she did. She didn't re-create the universe, she mentally manipulated Scott at a past junction to head off a possible divergent future based on his actions.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And?

They used an unnecessarily grandiose image to depict Jean mentally manipulating Cyclops's feelings for Emma to avert a future disaster caused by Scott. That's all she did. She didn't re-create the universe, she mentally manipulated Scott at a past junction to head off a possible divergent future.

Nope. The Phoenix Consciousness said that telekinetically controlling all of those atoms would not be easy even for the white crown Phoenix. The on panel depiction then depicts the 616 universe slowly coming together in the palm of her hand.

Altering Cyclops feelings has nothing to do with telekinetic manipulation of atoms and im quite sure that wouldnt be a struggle for the Phoenix.

The growing of a new future, the bit youre talking about was depicted a page later in the famous "Live Scott, Live" scene.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Forcing Jean back into the egg (presuming Wanda could do it or is given the chance to do it) would not kill Jean and as Jean is capable of returning under her own power then it does NOT constitute as a win.

Death is death.

Doomsday, Hulk, Wolverine, Deathstroke, etc can all be "killed" and resurrect themselves under their own power.

Forcing Jean to return to the egg equals defeating her.

Xorn provided the blueprint to defeating her. Plot device be damned. The whole premise of comic books is plots and plot devices.

She wears a glass crown. Wanda and Jim Jaspers have the tools to take it off of her head.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Death is death.

Doomsday, Hulk, Wolverine, Deathstroke, etc can all be "killed" and resurrect themselves under their own power.

Forcing Jean to return to the egg equals defeating her.

Xorn provided the blueprint to defeating her. Plot device be damned. The whole premise of comic books is plots and plot devices.

She wears a glass crown. Wanda and Jim Jaspers have the tools to take it off of her head.



Ending Jeans physical form doesnt equate to her death. When Hulk cracked open and the heroes destroyed Onslaughts physical form he was NOT killed.

Youre still presuming that Wanda could end it. As it is within Jeans abilities as stated to render herself totally indestructible then i really cant see that working.

I'll be back. Keep it coming.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ending Jeans physical form doesnt equate to her death. When Hulk cracked open and the heroes destroyed Onslaughts physical form he was NOT killed.

Youre still presuming that Wanda could end it. As it is within Jeans abilities as stated to render herself totally indestructible then i really cant see that working.

It's within her abilities, but it's not always the case. It's possible for her to render herself indestructible, just like it's possible for Hulk to attain 'unlimited strength' or for Apocalypse to grant himself any physical ability.

The evidence in the comics proves otherwise on all 3 counts.

Jean dies and has emotional breakdowns.
Hulk gets overpowered and 3 hitter quitter'd.
Apocalypse jobs and is scared of tables. :down

You can't champion the use of canon material in debates, then pick and choose which instances you wish to accept to bolster your own argument.

That's hypocrisy at it's most blatant.

Per canon continuity, a planetary level emp will cause Jean a severe stroke and kill her, forcing her back into her egg. It's possible, hell, it's already happened, meaning against Jim Jaspers or Wanda, it's a viable, and formidable, option, among many others.

Jean/Phoenix is physically vulnerable.

She wears a glass crown.

I'm going on my lunch break. Be back in a few.

I don't know why are you arguing on Phoenix, I mean Phoenix really cannot be beaten, if she choses so, nothinf can really be done to her, if she choses so.

Phoenix Force, no, can't be completely beaten.

The physical manifestation it embodies into reality (Jean, other hosts) can and have gotten their asses kicked on more than one occasion.

Look up the "Anti-Phoenix" and "Goblin Force".

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's within her abilities, but it's not always the case. It's possible for her to render herself indestructible, just like it's possible for Hulk to attain 'unlimited strength' or for Apocalypse to grant himself any physical ability.

The evidence in the comics proves otherwise on all 3 counts.

It is possible for her to do all those things, thats what ive been stating all throughout this thread , so im confused as to why you felt the need to reiterate my previous points to me.

The fact of the matter is that Phoenix is a cosmic being, she is totally indestructible in essence and can extend this feature to her physical form. The fact that she has bolstered her durability many a time in the comics to bathe in supernovas, laugh off herald level attacks (and even Rachel has laughed off Galactus' offence) and yet chose to kneel down beside Xorneto (please bear in mind her telepathy) and take a blast from Xorneto? PIS. Her death was telegraphed over a year before it happened and she said she had work to do elsewhere and wouldnt be long for this reality (616). Regardless of whether you think im a hypocrite (something i greatly dispute!! ) or not you cannot deny that was PIS.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Jean dies and has emotional breakdowns.
Hulk gets overpowered and 3 hitter quitter'd.
Apocalypse jobs and is scared of tables.

Hulk and Apocalypse arent cosmic beings who can materialize their desires with a thought. Irrelevant comparison.

Wanda can die and has had many an emotional breakdown too. Youre forgetting that she is a mentally disturbed human. Whats your point? As stated and shown on panel Jean can forsake her humanity by reverting to energy form or by allowing the consciousness to take over. Youre continually ignoring that point and restating the same old point over and over. Its an option that is open to Jean, please acknowledge that. Its something shes done on panel before and the fact that she can so easily do these things but for some reason decides not to allowing herself to be killed is again PIS.

Originally posted by illadelph12
You can't champion the use of canon material in debates, then pick and choose which instances you wish to accept to bolster your own argument.

That's hypocrisy at it's most blatant.

Pot calling the kettle black im afraid Ill.

In canon material Jean can make herself indestructible, she can let the Phoenix Consciousness take over and direct her actions, if her physical body is mortally wounded or damaged to an extent which should prove fatal for a human body Jean can and has kept it alive from the brink of death and wished away the injuries (New X-men 148, Endsong). Im looking at the canon instances where all thats occurred and then looking at her "deaths" and saying in light of all of that if Jean didnt want to die then she wouldnt have, if Jean hadnt erected her psychic circuit breakers she wouldnt have been susceptible to Mastermind (a point thats made clear in her bios). Phoenix has never been killed in an instance devoid of PIS. The first time was self inflicted, the second time she had work to do elsewhere and so allowed herself to be killed as per the will of the Phoenix Consciousness.

Despite all of that canon material at hand to reference what youre doing is simply ignoring all of that and saying no it just shows shes susceptible.


Originally posted by illadelph12
Per canon continuity, a planetary level emp will cause Jean a severe stroke and kill her, forcing her back into her egg. It's possible, hell, it's already happened, meaning against Jim Jaspers or Wanda, it's a viable, and formidable, option, among many others.

In canon continuity a planetary level emp HAS killed her. Youre wording makes it sound like the limit of Phoenixes durability is an offensive from Xorneto.

Canon continuity has shown and stated that is conclusively NOT the case. Canon continuity has shown her laugh off far more, canon continuity states she can have any durability she desires, canon continuity shows that Jean can have her heart gouged out on several instances and yet still stay alive and dismiss the injuries. Why? Because she wanted to.

Whats this talk of forcing Jean back into the egg? Dont know where you got that impression, but that doesnt happen in the event of her death. Jean has "died" many a time and just got back up seconds later. The egg is something that is derived from the Crown, it is how Phoenix manifests back into reality when she has work to do and as such its not a process Wanda has any control over.


Originally posted by illadelph12
Jean/Phoenix is physically vulnerable.

Nope. Jean is vulnerable if she chooses to be. Being indestructible is an option open to her and given that shes going into battle and both characters would have basic knowledge of each other as per forum rules its something she would do. Theres nothing Wanda could do to kill her if she decided she didnt want to die.

Originally posted by illadelph12
She wears a glass crown.

Uh-huh

Im thinking its still solid:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9236/54vc.th.jpg

I love you GS...........

well the beyonce pics.............drool

Originally posted by illadelph12
Phoenix Force, no, can't be completely beaten.

The physical manifestation it embodies into reality (Jean, other hosts) can and have gotten their asses kicked on more than one occasion.

Look up the "Anti-Phoenix" and "Goblin Force".

The physical manifestation, the true avatar Jean has never been beaten due to matters beyond her control or abilities. As shown on panel if Jean doesnt want to die then she will not die.

The Anti Phoenix had the upper hand in a battle with Rachel before she owned him. Rachel is a host not an avatar in the true sense of the word, she is NOT Jean and as stated on panel is far below her mother in power (as per the will of the Phoenix can only access its power in very limited amounts.) A comparison between Jean and Rachel therefore is irrelevant. Theyre two different beings with very different capabilities. Please understand that.

As for the Goblin Force, it defeated and absorbed the Phoenix of its universe. We know nothing of the circumstances behind that occurrence, we know nothing of that Phoenix manifestation. We know it wasnt destroyed or wholly absorbed because life still existed in that reality. Either way, whats the relevance? Wanda is NOT the late Goblin Force. Her conclusive feats dont even place her beyond the cube beings (planetary level reality warping with the potential for universal level) and they are regarded as minor omnipotents.

Please dont forget that if Phoenix wished to endow herself with reality warping abilities, then she very well could according to her bio. However she could operate on a far greater scale.

the way i look at it, its not a matter of speculation, the fact that Jean is quote, un-quote "dead" right now pretty much proves that her physical frame can be and have been destroyed..the PF is something different entirely "that" is what cant be defeated the PF. no matter who the host is they are suseptible, if Jean as Phoenix was so infallible and impervious then Jason Wyngrade wouldnt have been able to mind f **** her the way he did...as phoenix! remeber she even sacrificed her body during that shiar incident just so that the PF could be without a host and the universe saved...key words her body

I wouldnt really go out on a limb and say that Wanda is taking her down anytime soon, but afterall this is Wanda vs Genis...and even then I wouldnt count her out either.all the things she did, she DID do it...its not like anybody is making up powers for her, and the fact that thier really hasnt been any side quests or elseworld-esque adventures for the avengers everything she has done is basically canon material. and i echo ill's sentiment about her body reacting to protect itslef. cuz remeber she was being tutored in magic by strange, and she was taking magic very seriously, and was using it in battles, but when the Sqaudron supreme showed up and started owning.. her natural abilites just kicked in and went to work altering probailtes left and right. so who knows perhaps she could short out jeans powers or the very least separte her from the force. and as far as im concerned separtating someone from the field of play does count as a victory. it doesnt matter if they can come back at will or not.

BTW its best to leave Jim Jaspers out of this cuz he could take on Anybody any day...that guy is basically a super intelligent full powered molecule man, with an insanity driven imagination(which is the most dangerous kind). he doesnt mess with probabilties he warps reality....on a cosmic scale, and he has shown to do this by the way just in case anyone wants to dispute, and it took the destruction of his entire reality to do him in. while im certain Phoenix has that power Jean's physical frame wouldnt be able to draw up on all that energy in a reasnable amount of time, plenty of time of Jaspers to mess her up in ways yet imagined,

back to wanda and genis she has shown to warp an entire universe...i believe the whole universe was afftected, not just earth cuz if not Saturnyne wouldnt have threatened to destroy all of 616 in HOM to protect the omniverse from its wayward energies, cuz thats what she does being the omniversal majextrix and all so if it was only earth i dont think wanda would pose a threat to literally all there is...Genis is a guy who is shown to be a veritable god, but not a god, god.. tho he has some impressive feats he can take wanda in her reg. incarnation when she's bat shit insane and extremely powerful i dont know

Originally posted by manjaro
the way i look at it, its not a matter of speculation, the fact that Jean is quote, un-quote "dead" right now pretty much proves that her physical frame can be and have been destroyed..the PF is something different entirely "that" is what cant be defeated the PF. no matter who the host is they are suseptible, if Jean as Phoenix was so infallible and impervious then Jason Wyngrade wouldnt have been able to mind f **** her the way he did...as phoenix! remeber she even sacrificed her body during that shiar incident just so that the PF could be without a host and the universe saved...key words her body

If you were to read up on current continuity, you would find out that Jean is NOT a host for the Phoenix Force, she is in fact the form the force takes on in the physical plane. With that in mind the above opinion is inconsequential.

If you were to refer back to Jeans appearances as Phoenix and her bio entries you would see that it is within her abilities to render herself above all harm. It is within her abilities to bring herself back from the brink of death and shrug off injuries which would otherwise prove fatal to a mortal body. That is all canon. She has done these thing sbefore and after the "Xorneto" incident. The fact that she has those abilities yet she didnt choose to save herself when he attacked her renders it PIS in light of that. It was a plot device and one that was telegraphed on panel long before the issue and even in said same issue.

Jean was susceptible to Mastermind because she erected psychic circuit breakers in her mind after she had dealt with the M'kraan crystal. It was self inflicted and the point is stated in her bios. In a forum match up we dont cater for plot devices. We look at their abilities and feats and we speculate with them as a guideline. Jean has it within herself by canon to place herself above all forms of harm and if she doesnt want to die then she wont die. Jeans death in New X-men 150 was something we were prepared for by comments such as "Jean dies to be reborn", Phoenix is needed to perform a "destined disinfection", she is born and consumed in blood flame and sacrifice, but always returns. Jean even told Logan in the same issue that she had work to do and that she wasnt long for that reality (616). Despite being the greatest telepathic force in Marvel and by canon able to place herself above harm or recover from seemingly fatal injuries, Jean kneels by Xorneto and strokes him before he emps her!! A page later we see the Phoenix egg and then we all know what goes on to happen. Plot device peeps!!

Originally posted by manjaro
I wouldnt really go out on a limb and say that Wanda is taking her down anytime soon, but afterall this is Wanda vs Genis...and even then I wouldnt count her out either.all the things she did, she DID do it...its not like anybody is making up powers for her, and the fact that thier really hasnt been any side quests or elseworld-esque adventures for the avengers everything she has done is basically canon material. and i echo ill's sentiment about her body reacting to protect itslef. cuz remeber she was being tutored in magic by strange, and she was taking magic very seriously, and was using it in battles, but when the Sqaudron supreme showed up and started owning.. her natural abilites just kicked in and went to work altering probailtes left and right. so who knows perhaps she could short out jeans powers or the very least separte her from the force. and as far as im concerned separtating someone from the field of play does count as a victory. it doesnt matter if they can come back at will or not.

Well you should now know that Jean is the human form of the Phoenix as stated on panel and as confirmed by Endsong and the latest Phoenix bio. Youre speculating about Wandas ability to react to harm automatically. It isnt sufficiently supported on panel and her last bio which came out just before House of M, but after Dissassembled makes no reference to that ability.Wanda MAY be able to instinctively apply her power for simple things however thats still no good against Genis' cosmically enhanced reactions and light speed flight.

You may consider removing someone from the field of play a victory, however considering forum rules do NOT thats rather irrelevant. If Jean couldnt return to the battlefield under her own power then it would be a victory, however as she can then it does not.

Originally posted by manjaro
BTW its best to leave Jim Jaspers out of this cuz he could take on Anybody any day...that guy is basically a super intelligent full powered molecule man, with an insanity driven imagination(which is the most dangerous kind). he doesnt mess with probabilties he warps reality....on a cosmic scale, and he has shown to do this by the way just in case anyone wants to dispute, and it took the destruction of his entire reality to do him in. while im certain Phoenix has that power Jean's physical frame wouldnt be able to draw up on all that energy in a reasnable amount of time, plenty of time of Jaspers to mess her up in ways yet imagined,

And yet Jean can forsake her human form and take on an energy form thereby doing away with such limitations. Its all stated in the Phoenix bio my friend. Phoenix is the force that makes reality possible, while at the same time the Phoenix Force itself is derived from the Crown which beyond the restrictions of reality. Jim or Wanda would have nothing to work with in a forum battle because each party goes in with basic knowledge of the other and they are at full power. Jean has the ability to place herself above physical harm and she can command any energy type in any amount. Plus Jeans physical frame had the power to manipulate the 616 universe atom by atom in the palm of her hand, it had the power to amputate 616's entire future on a whim, it had the power to contain the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal. Your comments arent supported on panel.

Originally posted by manjaro
back to wanda and genis she has shown to warp an entire universe...i believe the whole universe was afftected, not just earth cuz if not Saturnyne wouldnt have threatened to destroy all of 616 in HOM to protect the omniverse from its wayward energies, cuz thats what she does being the omniversal majextrix and all so if it was only earth i dont think wanda would pose a threat to literally all there is...Genis is a guy who is shown to be a veritable god, but not a god, god.. tho he has some impressive feats he can take wanda in her reg. incarnation when she's bat shit insane and extremely powerful i dont know

If you were to read Uncanny X-men 462 again carefully you would see that while they knew the chaos wave originated from Earth, they were unable to determine its source. For all we know THAT is the reason why they decided to destroy the universe as a last measure. Given that Roma made reference to the warp being "global" in scale and the fact that that is the only on panel reference we have to how big it is, there is really no debating it. Anything else is speculation. Id wait for Wandas bio to come out and then we'll see.

Wanda didnt pose a threat to all that is. The chaos wave did. It was either a spillover of the reality warp on Earth 616, or it was a result of the tear she cause in the walls of reality (Legion sparked off a similar wave by tearing the walls between realities in Legion Quest). Either way her power proved to be a catalyst, she never directly generated and maintainbed the wave. Her actions were merely the cause behind it, therefore any resultant destruction was not a feat of hers. Not something she could necessarily achieve by direct application of her power.

All your essays are meaningless.

The crux of the matter is Jean as Phoenix has been killed, manipulated psionically, and is given to emotional unrest.

The "humanity" Jean presents as an "avatar" is the weakness.

She's subject to probability, and therefore she can be, and HAS been, defeated, and can again, meaning Wanda and Mad Jim Jaspers can defeat Jean as Phoenix.

If Jean's wig's been split, you can't acquit.

She wears a glass crown. It's already been shown in canon material. All your essays are meaningless when the fact remains Xorn killed her, Necrom raped her, Mastermind brain f*cked her, and she was shattered and a woman scorned.

Post more Beyonce pics though.

The Chaos Wave was a possibility realized. The realization of possibilities is Wanda's power, she can consciously and unconsciously manipulate probabilities, possibilities, and causality. She caused the wave. Your explanation is hollow to anyone with deductive reasoning.

"A probability manipulator unwittingly caused an unwanted possibility to occur."

^No need for an essay, that sentence sums it up.

Originally posted by illadelph12
All your essays are meaningless.

The crux of the matter is Jean as Phoenix has been killed, manipulated psionically, and is given to emotional unrest.

The "humanity" Jean presents as an "avatar" is the weakness.

She's subject to probability, and therefore she can be, and HAS been, defeated, and can again, meaning Wanda and Mad Jim Jaspers can defeat Jean as Phoenix.



Nope the crux of the matter is that the only times Jean has been killed are in circumstances which were entirely under her control. It wasnt down to lack of power, or lack of foresight or lack of ability. Jean stated she dies to be reborn, she stated she had work to do elsewhere and she stated that she wasnt going to be around much longer because of said work in the same issue she later died in. By canon material Jean can make her physical body indestructible, she has laughed off greater forces than Xorneto and when her body has been mortally wounded she kept herself from dying because it was her wish to do so. She has done this both before and after the death you love to highlight. With all that in mind and when you take the forum rules into consideration Jeans death at the hands of Xorneto means nothing. Jean can make herself invulnerable to any assault Wanda can throw her way. Whereas Wanda could NOT do the same in return.


Originally posted by illadelph12
She wears a glass crown. It's already been shown in canon material. All your essays are meaningless when the fact remains Xorn killed her, Necrom raped her, Mastermind brain f*cked her, and she was shattered and a woman scorned.

Post more Beyonce pics though.

Its been shown in canon material that Jean can withstand such damage and her death was explained away as Jean having work to do elsewhere. It wasnt down to Jean lacking in an area. Youre acknowledging one side of the argument whilst dismissing the other and as such your argument is as ever completely without merit.

Crown status is solid as ever.

Originally posted by illadelph12
The Chaos Wave was a possibility realized. The realization of possibilities is Wanda's power, she can consciously and unconsciously manipulate probabilities, possibilities, and causality. She caused the wave. Your explanation is hollow to anyone with deductive reasoning.

"A probability manipulator unwittingly caused an unwanted possibility to occur."

^No need for an essay, that sentence sums it up.

That sentence does sum it up indeed. Your previous paragraph however is irrelevant as it is speculatory and unsupported on panel. Wanda may be able to manipulate probabilities, however it is naive to assume she can materialise any probability whatsoever. You have no evidence for that and given that the reality warp she created was stated by herself to be a taxing effort we are given on panel a guide to her capacity. No speculation required or wanted.

Wanda unwittingly caused the wave as a result of her actions. Its not a direct manifestation of her power.

Thats all.

wow, this is getting insane now. i was just throwing in my two cents, on the matter i didnt think i would be taken on like that, but still when since did we start putting 100% stock in bios and shit any way.. and since when did specific feats from specific events had to be mentioned in said bio entries to be deemed relevant? And...and...where does all this super strict adherence to "as per forum rules" thing came from out of nowhere?

.. in essence what you are saying is anything that happened to Jean in comics that made her look bad is PIS, bad writing, or "happend as per some pre-ordained purpose" and when you see that there are ppl out there who has a reasonable shot at f ****ing her up, you're like no, no, no lets stick to forum rules, that way she has a better shot of looking good..... thats just kind of...i dont know... lame dude. as far as my arguments not being supported on panel, thats ridiclous! I base them on 13 yrs. worth of comic book reading. I dont speculate

i have seen wanda's powers kick in reactivly to protect her from immediate harm, i have also seen her deduce ways of f ****ing up ppl almost intuitively, like her own little version of cosmic awareness, so just cuz YOU havent seen some of her more impressive feats that doesnt mean they didnt happen.

you seem to underestimate probabilties. in comics no matter how powerful a person is they generate a number of probalbity fields in any given situation, wanda has the power to poke thru pockets of reality and probability and make them happen here.. so here's an idea "NO MORE PHOENIX!" *poof*

At Genis Full power he doesn't even have to leave the room to kill Scarlet Witch.

Originally posted by manjaro
wow, this is getting insane now. i was just throwing in my two cents, on the matter i didnt think i would be taken on like that, but still when since did we start putting 100% stock in bios and shit any way.. and since when did specific feats from specific events had to be mentioned in said bio entries to be deemed relevant? And...and...where does all this super strict adherence to "as per forum rules" thing came from out of nowhere?

For a start, you contributed to a debate, as such you put your opinion up for critique. I read your post and responded. If you are sensitive to point where you cant take criticism, then dont put your opinion on the public table. It happens its a forum.

Noones putting 100% stock in the bios. The bios arent the only source im drawing on to support my argument. It is both them and many on panel references and as the point im making is shown and stated in both sources, this really shouldnt be up for debate. As for specific feats having to be referenced in the bios they dont usually. However in the case with Wanda in Disassembled, Wanda was employing constructs to fight the Avengers as was guessed by some members on panel by the way they just materialised out of thin air. Wanda then went on to attack the Avengers with "Dormammu". The fact that Wandas bio stated she attacked the team with constructs, the fact that Wanda went on to attack Strange with a Dormammu construct in Excalibur #11 AND the fact that it is not mentioned in Dormammus bio that he was abducted, mind controlled and used as a pawn by Wanda to fight his arch-nemesis (quite a major incident which would almost certainly feature in his bio) that kinda gives me a hint that it really wasnt Dormammu.

Originally posted by manjaro
.. in essence what you are saying is anything that happened to Jean in comics that made her look bad is PIS, bad writing, or "happend as per some pre-ordained purpose" and when you see that there are ppl out there who has a reasonable shot at f ****ing her up, you're like no, no, no lets stick to forum rules, that way she has a better shot of looking good..... thats just kind of...i dont know... lame dude.

It was actually stated on panel and it was stated in the bio that after the M'kraan crystal feat Jean erected psychic circuit breakers that shut off the majority of her power and made her vulnerable. It was this that made her susceptible to Mastermind. With the references from official sources that is NOT debatable. PIS.

All throughout New X-men even from 2 years before the Xorneto incident in issue 150, it was stated that the Phoenix had work to do in the future and references were made about it being the way of the Phoenix to die to be reborn. In fact in issue 128 Jean had a vision of Xornetos rampage in New York and says to Xavier " I am born and consumed in blood, flame and sacrifice. And return. Always coming back" Xavier says "What is this place? Are these words from the future?" Jean foresaw her death and she even went on to saw to Logan in the very same issue of the incident that she had work to do and that she was not going to be around much longer. She then was "killed" by Xorneto.

Given that a) Jean has been shown to take far more damage (Jean has laughed off blasts from a deranged Firelord trying to kill her, eaten stars from the core) thus supporting the bios claims that she can give herself any level of durability she desires

b) She is the greatest telepathic force in Marvel and was in a battle situation, therefore she would have been aware of Xornetos intentions

c) Both before and after the incident Jean has been delivered fatal (for a mortal body) injuries (she had her heart stabbed out) and yet she kept herself alive. Why? Because it was her wish to do so.

With all that in mind it was PIS. If Jean didnt have to work on behalf of the Consciousness, then as shown on panel Jean in the very same issue, Jean could have if she wished just stayed alive and killed him with a thought. In the same issue her ship had crashed into the sun and yet she was unfazed, she protected Logan and merely constructed a new ship. Blatant PIS.

Originally posted by manjaro
as far as my arguments not being supported on panel, thats ridiclous! I base them on 13 yrs. worth of comic book reading. I dont speculate

Forum debating is an exercise in speculation so thats not quite correct my friend.

Originally posted by manjaro
i have seen wanda's powers kick in reactivly to protect her from immediate harm, i have also seen her deduce ways of f ****ing up ppl almost intuitively, like her own little version of cosmic awareness, so just cuz YOU havent seen some of her more impressive feats that doesnt mean they didnt happen.

Dont presume to know the extent of my comic book knowledge Manny. Wandas powers are still on the whole activated by conscious thought, while it is true that she can instinctively unleash aspects of her power to protect herself, it has only ever been for low level attacks, therefore your point is irrelevant. On top of that the b*tch is currently looking for her marbles so shes hardly gonna be on top fighting form.

Originally posted by manjaro
you seem to underestimate probabilties. in comics no matter how powerful a person is they generate a number of probalbity fields in any given situation, wanda has the power to poke thru pockets of reality and probability and make them happen here.. so here's an idea "NO MORE PHOENIX!" *poof*

And you seem to over-estimate not only probabilities themselves but Wandas ability to manipulate them. Given that Wanda has only conclusively warped Earth 616 as stated by Roma in her "global alteration" reference, what makes you think she has what it takes to beat one of the most powerful forces in creation? Wanda may be able to manipulate probabilities but it is very naive of you to assume that she could bring about any probability she desires. Thats not the case at all especially when in House of M Wanda stated that to warp Earth for her friends would prove very taxing therefore giving us an insight into her capacity. The cube beings are also global reality warpers with the potential for universal scale warping however they are still classed as minor omnipotents.

Wanda manipulates reality on a limited scale, she has not been shown or stated to have total mastery over it. Her own comments tell you that is far from the case. Phoenix creates reality and is the power behind it. Phoenix stems from beyond reality in the White Hot Room and as such isnt something Wanda could wipe from existence even if she could manipulate reality on a sufficent scale, because its existence isnt determined by reality, IT makes reality possible. Sure she could materialise probabilities that could harm Jeans physiacl form, but at the same time Jean as shown on panel and stated in her bio can give herself any durability she wishes, wield any energy or power she wishes and in any amount. Theres nothing Wanda could do that Phoenix couldnt swat aside, or outdo with sheer greater power and omniscience via the Consciousness.

Wanda is a deraned mutant with great power, she is no cosmic force. To cut the battle short, Phoenix incinerates her from the get go. Game over.

How is it that anytime theres a wanda or a phoenix thread, it always becomes Wanda vs Phoenix. Werent we supposd to be talking about Genis-Vell?

yeah.. we're talking about genis... who would win against Wanda