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This should be interesting.

All relatives of Superman, Reed Richards, and Cyclops, either by marriage or biologically (including clones), vs each other.

(Note: I realize Franklin Richards and Rachel Summers had a child together. For the purposes of this thread, he is neutral and a non factor. Only).

Which family packs the most punch?

Discuss.

Does Franklin have full access to his powers and does Jean get to use the phoenix force?

Phoenix sucks, Franklin Sucks

Originally posted by King KAM
Phoenix sucks, Franklin Sucks

U suck prettyboy!!

Of course im gonna say the Summers family

Franklin creates an anti-Phoenix force in another dimension and brings it to 616.




Seriously, I'm leaning toward the Summers family if we get Phoenix. If not, it's that Fantastifamily.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
U suck prettyboy!! .......damn u brit!

Okay, here are some rules (for both clarification and to stoke the fire):

Franklin is at full power for the purposes of this thread.
All relatives are at play, meaning the House of El has access to Superboy Prime and Superman and Wonder Woman's son from Kingdom Come. Blood relations, divergent realities versions, and clones are acceptable.
House of El can include characters from the Million Series.
Since divergents are allowed, the Von Doom bloodline is also accessible to the Richards family.
Jean/Phoenix is allowed (and no, that does not equate to an automatic victory for the Summers Family if you are knowledgable of all characters at play).
Each patriarch (Reed, Kal El, Scott) is allowed 2 hours of prep to confer with their family members and devise a plan of attack using any tech that has ever been displayed available to their family in the comics (save the Ultimate Nullifier).
Former spouses, and their relatives, are allowed as well (save any Richards/Summers unions).

Discuss.

Please give a full explanation of why you feel a certain family would be victorious. Please do not simply give one line answers like "Phoenix pwns all" or "Speedblitz".

Who gets Hyperstorm? He is both part of the Summers and Richards family. Id assume we are talking patrilineal here, so the Richards get him. Psi-Lord, Hyperstorm and Reed with the UN will pose a threat to Phoenix. The House of El dies in a nanosecond however.

Phoenix wins!!

Franklin at full power takes out everybody.

Seriously, the kid defeated Memispho!

Originally posted by Grimm22
Franklin at full power takes out everybody.

Seriously, the kid defeated Memispho!

And yet Mephisto is elder god level at the most and therefore a relative non factor. Big wow!!

Read up on the characters involved. Franklin is Celestial level at full potential. He can make pocket dimensions. Phoenix is the power which both initiates and maintains creation. Completely different ball game.

Yeah, but Hyperstorm is said to be an amalgamation of Magneto, Prof X and the Phoenix itself (his grandmother!). Him along with Psi-Lord and the Ultimate Nullifier can challenge the Phoenix.

GS, my friend, I wouldn't have made this thread if it were that simple. ("Jgggg...."

Also, don't count out the House of El so quickly. You'd be surprised at who Kal El can call "family'.

Or Nathan Richards could just go back in time and kill Jean before she became the phoniex

Originally posted by illadelph12
Okay, here are some rules (for both clarification and to stoke the fire):

Franklin is at full power for the purposes of this thread.
All relatives are at play, meaning the House of El has access to Superboy Prime and Superman and Wonder Woman's son from Kingdom Come. Blood relations, divergent realities versions, and clones are acceptable.
House of El can include characters from the Million Series.
Since divergents are allowed, the Von Doom bloodline is also accessible to the Richards family.
Jean/Phoenix is allowed (and no, that does not equate to an automatic victory for the Summers Family if you are knowledgable of all characters at play).
Each patriarch (Reed, Kal El, Scott) is allowed 2 hours of prep to confer with their family members and devise a plan of attack using any tech that has ever been displayed available to their family in the comics (save the Ultimate Nullifier).
Former spouses, and their relatives, are allowed as well (save any Richards/Summers unions).

Discuss.

Please give a full explanation of why you feel a certain family would be victorious. Please do not simply give one line answers like "Phoenix pwns all" or "Speedblitz".

So that would mean Superman Prime gets he sword, right?

Originally posted by illadelph12
GS, my friend, I wouldn't have made this thread if it were that simple. ("Jgggg...."

Also, don't count out the House of El so quickly. You'd be surprised at who Kal El can call "family'.

Juggernaut

Originally posted by TheKahn
So that would mean Superman Prime gets he sword, right?

As I said, do not count out the House of El. They have ties in Heaven and the 5th Dimension.

Don't forget the Queen of the Imps married a descendant of Superman...

I say house of El!

House of El.

Superboy Prime retcon punches the marvel characters back to their 1950 versions and then the super-team beat the shit out of them .

And Superman Prime has the Sword, along with Superman one million, and Pre Crises Superman, and the Crossover of Superman and Thor, Thor-EL

And the Dynasty of Superman, and his family which is part of the fifth dimension imps, one being a queen.

Upon further analysis and a compelling PM I received from a fellow board member, Hyperstorm (and his divergents) are now available to the Richards Family.

Still the El family.

Summers Family, then the house of El is tied with the Richards.
I don't care who the El's bring to the table, they can't compete with both the Goblin Force and the PF. And the Summers clan has the White Crown in its lineup. Even with the SOS, people wouldn't give him odds against Lucifer or Michael. Why disrespect the Phoenix in turn??

Most of the El family has brute force as its main advantage. When facing Celestial level beings, Brute force fails. And before anybody brings up Mxy, he was blasted to oblivion by Gog from the Kingdom. A skyfather level being. Celestials alone immensely dwarf skyfathers. And with multiple pf hosts to boot?? Summers for the win. And with Vulcan now being around, he might be able to take a few of the lower tier Els. If his hype delivers on panel. And since we never saw any feats of SOS, why rank it so high?? Omnipotent is vastly overused as a descriptive word. Ion was said to be omnipotent, but when i created an Ion vs Lucifer thread, Lucifer was the clear choice. Until we see feats from the SOS, don't bet so much on its invincibility. Cause you're backing an empty cartridge.

If Superboy prime can destroy the speed force then he could beat on PF hard.

If the speedforce is the sum of ALL kinetic energy in the DCU, and it was destroyed by an abysmal character like sbp, the fact that the heroes are still alive and moving about makes me scratch my head in confusion. And the speedforce wasn't destroyed by SBP. The flashes overtaxed it, and its flame flickered. The speedforce CAN'T be destroyed. The universe itself revolves around kinetic energy. From brainwaves to blood flow to celestial movement. Were the sf destroyed, the universe would die. Read up on it.
And the PF would blink away sbp and the rest like Takion should've have a long time ago.

I guess everyone missed the Doom Lineage angle I added...

The Summers family has some pretty powerful energy manipulation and psionics going for them, they got Cyclopes, Havok, Vulcan, Jean, Maddie, Rachel, Cable, Stryfe, Nate Grey, Alia, Genesis. Cable, Rachel, Alia, Genesis and Stryfe have access to all kinds of crazy tech from farther in the future than the others have been as well as Askani training. Then we have Scott from mutant X who is supposed to be real powerful as a wild card, he can always access these powers when his father is in danger. In the end Havoc married that nurse so her son who is extremely powerful is his stepson and gets to join as well. Are there any divergent realites where Havoc married Polaris, and if so do in-laws count? If you count Hyperstorm then you'll have to move Rachel to the Richards side, they were married and that ends up being stupid because Jean is her favorite person in all existence and she would never fight her mother, further more considering how unstable Hyperstorm is he might kill his family before anybody else even has a chance to fight them.

Any relation, be it genetic (birth or cloning) or by marriage, in any reality, counts.

So yes, in-laws would count.

That's why Kal El can call on Wonder Woman's geneology as well. She was the mother of his child.

Rachel is a Summers/Grey and an in law if Hyperstorm counts what team is she on?

Rachel is a Summers. Her father is a Summers.

Hyperstorm's father is a Richards, therefore he is under the Richards Flag.

Rachel with Cyclops.

J. Reed with Reed.

Even with Hyperstorm so what, he's crazy and if Rachel can change genomes unconsciously then her peoples who have way more control can change everybody into base line humans.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Summers Family, then the house of El is tied with the Richards.
I don't care who the El's bring to the table, they can't compete with both the Goblin Force and the PF. And the Summers clan has the White Crown in its lineup. Even with the SOS, people wouldn't give him odds against Lucifer or Michael. Why disrespect the Phoenix in turn??

Most of the El family has brute force as its main advantage. When facing Celestial level beings, Brute force fails. And before anybody brings up Mxy, he was blasted to oblivion by Gog from the Kingdom. A skyfather level being. Celestials alone immensely dwarf skyfathers. And with multiple pf hosts to boot?? Summers for the win. And with Vulcan now being around, he might be able to take a few of the lower tier Els. If his hype delivers on panel. And since we never saw any feats of SOS, why rank it so high?? Omnipotent is vastly overused as a descriptive word. Ion was said to be omnipotent, but when i created an Ion vs Lucifer thread, Lucifer was the clear choice. Until we see feats from the SOS, don't bet so much on its invincibility. Cause you're backing an empty cartridge.

Gog isn't skyfather , he's just a walking plot-device.

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
Yeah, but Hyperstorm is said to be an amalgamation of Magneto, Prof X and the Phoenix itself (his grandmother!). Him along with Psi-Lord and the Ultimate Nullifier can challenge the Phoenix.

Thats hyperbole. Where did you see Hyperstorm display any Phoenix abilities? Plus even if that were true his access to the force would merely be shut off by The White Crown Phoenix. The Ultimate Nullifier is a machine, its inner workings can be tampered with, it is vulnerable. On top of that even Galactus has escaped its affects and punked Hyperstorm, plus the Infinity Gauntlet has rendered the device inert before. Non factor.

Originally posted by grey fox
House of El.

Superboy Prime retcon punches the marvel characters back to their 1950 versions and then the super-team beat the shit out of them .

That worked because SPB was in the Alex Luthor created "Heaven". SPB could not and did not just walk around Metropolis punching retcons out of thin air. It was all about location. Just like Cyclops could to the nexus of realities and under his open power destroy universes or the multiverse, yet do you think he could do the same from the X-mansion?

On top of that SPB's ability to do thatwas not only due to his location but the weaknesses in reality left over by the first Crisis. In a neutral battlefield those circumstances wouldnt be in place.

Originally posted by Jesse7
And Superman Prime has the Sword, along with Superman one million, and Pre Crises Superman, and the Crossover of Superman and Thor, Thor-EL

And the Dynasty of Superman, and his family which is part of the fifth dimension imps, one being a queen.

The Sword wasnt a part of his standard equipment so its a non factor here im afraid. On top of that as far as we saw in the only appearance where it was actually used it CONCLUSIVELY gave Pre crisis Supes omniscience, nothing more im afraid. Beings like Phoenix possess that ability inherently.

Originally posted by Kool-Aid
If Superboy prime can destroy the speed force then he could beat on PF hard.

Based on what? By definition the Phoenix Force would be the equivalent of DC's Source so i fail to see how you came to that conclusion.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Any relation, be it genetic (birth or cloning) or by marriage, in any reality, counts.

So yes, in-laws would count.

That's why Kal El can call on Wonder Woman's geneology as well. She was the mother of his child.

If thats the case then the Summers family can call on the abstracts cos Phoenix is their "mother"

Ok then you want to play it like that then Gs , fine by me.

All of the supermen are immune (or incredibly resistant ) to Tp . Slam one for Summers family.

All of them are incredibly durable , unless K-nite or magic is involved (and guess what c, none of the ilk witch you worship have those specific techniques....what a pity) The early summers (scott ect etc) get taken out with ease, vulcan is Supes 1 millions ***** , with him smashing through dimensions with ease.

Superboy Prime put's his planet moving strnehg to work by knocking jeans head clean off. Because at the end of the day jean still has human durability. A tk shield can be smashed through and as we all know SBP NEVER holds back .

Reality is already being warped taking out most of the opposing team members thanks to the dynasties Imp magic/powers.

Wonder Woman god-waves the opposing team , it doesn't take too long for her to start it up .



Everyone is now dead save for the Superman family.


Ps : Next time learn to take a joke GS

Originally posted by grey fox
Ok then you want to play it like that then Gs , fine by me.

All of the supermen are immune (or incredibly resistant ) to Tp . Slam one for Summers family.

A resistance far from equates to immunity. As we have seen recently in Supes own title he can be psionically manipulated. Maxwell Lord is far from the Phoenix Force point dismissed.

On top of that psionic power isnt the only power the Phoenix possesses, a little common sense please. It possesses any and all abilities to any extent. Sorry mate.

Originally posted by grey fox
All of them are incredibly durable , unless K-nite or magic is involved (and guess what c, none of the ilk witch you worship have those specific techniques....what a pity) The early summers (scott ect etc) get taken out with ease, vulcan is Supes 1 millions ***** , with him smashing through dimensions with ease.

Again, incredible durability does not equate to 100 % invulnerability. We are dealing with the Phoenix Force here the power of creation, it can command any energy type in any amount as stated, a bunch of Supermen other dimensional or otherwise are not going to be able to withstand the power of creation if its out to kill them. Would you claim that these guys could punk the Source? If not SHHHH!!

Originally posted by grey fox
Superboy Prime put's his planet moving strnehg to work by knocking jeans head clean off. Because at the end of the day jean still has human durability. A tk shield can be smashed through and as we all know SBP NEVER holds back .



Jean is the Phoenix. As stated she can take on any form she likes and be as invulnerable as she likes. If you would like a bio statement then ask nicely and i'll see what i can do. In a bloodlust match where PIS/CIS isnt included and the characters are using their abilities to their fullest extent, the supermen get wasted. If the Phoenix put up a tk shield, SBP would not be getting thru. Dont be absurd sonny.

Originally posted by grey fox
Reality is already being warped taking out most of the opposing team members thanks to the dynasties Imp magic/powers.

Wonder Woman god-waves the opposing team , it doesn't take too long for her to start it up .

None of the imps have powers on the scale of Phoenix. Phoenix is the lifes blood of Marvels multiverse and its manifestations safeguard its various realities from beyond space and time. What youre forgetting is that Mxy and the likes of the imps are just from the fifth dimension. Dc tends to talk in terms of the universal so Mxy coming from a higher dimensional plane and messing with a lower dimension (the main DC universe) seems impressive when looked at in those terms. However we're talking about a being (Phoenix) who is the power behind a multiverse, who is beyond all realities and as seen in New X-men has jurisdiction over Marvels multiverse, then theres no way Mxy and his ilk will be able pull there sh*t on Phoenix. Mxy is impressive because hes from a higher dimension and can look down and manipulate the main dc universe like us over ant hills. However he and the imps are still a part of DC's multiverse and as such are below multiversal beings like Phoenix, Spectre and LT whose power and jurisdiction spans all realities in their multiverses. Just look how Spectres disruption of magic in DC left Mxy powerless. Illustrates my point exactly.



Originally posted by grey fox
Everyone is now dead save for the Superman family.

Far from the case. Know your stuff.


Originally posted by grey fox
Ps : Next time learn to take a joke GS

Next time make sure you know your sh*t before you open your mouth in a debate and for the love of god dont be so quick to gloat cos you'll only look very silly when your arguments brushed aside like rain off a mac when the better man comes through.

The Godwave is an energy wave derived from DC's Source. The Phoenix Force is the equivalent of the Source in Marvel. It too manifests as the Big Bang and its energies sustain creation. The Godwave is just a derivative from the Big Bang so its not even the full measure and on top of that Wonder Woman can wield it for a few seconds. Point dismissed. Please refer to DC's Genesis.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A resistance far from equates to immunity. As we have seen recently in Supes own title he can be psionically manipulated. Maxwell Lord is far from the Phoenix Force point dismissed.

On top of that psionic power isnt the only power the Phoenix possesses, a little common sense please. It possesses any and all abilities to any extent. Sorry mate.



Again, incredible durability does not equate to 100 % invulnerability. We are dealing with the Phoenix Force here the power of creation, it can command any energy type in any amount as stated, a bunch of Supermen other dimensional or otherwise are not going to be able to withstand the power of creation if its out to kill them. Would you claim that these guys could punk the Source? If not SHHHH!!





Jean is the Phoenix. As stated she can take on any form she likes and be as invulnerable as she likes. If you would like a bio statement then ask nicely and i'll see what i can do. In a bloodlust match where PIS/CIS isnt included and the characters are using their abilities to their fullest extent, the supermen get wasted. If the Phoenix put up a tk shield, SBP would not be getting thru. Dont be absurd sonny.



None of the imps have powers on the scale of Phoenix. Phoenix is the lifes blood of Marvels multiverse and its manifestations safeguard its various realities from beyond space and time. What youre forgetting is that Mxy and the likes of the imps are just from the fifth dimension. Dc tends to talk in terms of the universal so Mxy coming from a higher dimensional plane and messing with a lower dimension (the main DC universe) seems impressive when looked at in those terms. However we're talking about a being (Phoenix) who is the power behind a multiverse, who is beyond all realities and as seen in New X-men has jurisdiction over Marvels multiverse, then theres no way Mxy and his ilk will be able pull there sh*t on Phoenix. Mxy is impressive because hes from a higher dimension and can look down and manipulate the main dc universe like us over ant hills. However he and the imps are still a part of DC's multiverse and as such are below multiversal beings like Phoenix, Spectre and LT whose power and jurisdiction spans all realities in their multiverses. Just look how Spectres disruption of magic in DC left Mxy powerless. Illustrates my point exactly.





Far from the case. Know your stuff.




Next time make sure you know your sh*t before you open your mouth in a debate and for the love of god dont be so quick to gloat cos you'll only look very silly when your arguments brushed aside like rain off a mac when the better man comes through.

THATS IT DAMMIT .

I am sick to the back teeth of all this 'Phoenix is god , Phoenix is the equivalent to the source ' Bullshit . Phoenix was a ****ing writers way of bringing the red-headed ***** back to life . END OF STORY.


Phoenix is no where NEAR the ****ing source.

*Calms down*

Sorry about that everyone , but i hate phoenix .

My reasons include

A. She makes doomsday look comparatively normal when it comes to Plot-devices.

B. I dislike mutants , but i don't let that influence my choices.

C. All this crap about Jean being part of god is pure bullshit , if i ever meet the guy who came up with that face to face i will personally ram his head up his ass.

Also , i wasn't gloating Gs . I was just stating that if you hadn't of taken my original post so seriously i wouldn't have had to write that long-ass post.

Oh one more thing , cut the 'This is from the source and the PF is from marvels equivalent of the source' Marvel has no source , your just making assumptions and it's hella annoying.

Originally posted by grey fox
THATS IT DAMMIT .

I am sick to the back teeth of all this 'Phoenix is god , Phoenix is the equivalent to the source ' Bullshit . Phoenix was a ****ing writers way of bringing the red-headed ***** back to life . END OF STORY.


Phoenix is no where NEAR the ****ing source.

*Calms down*

Sorry about that everyone , but i hate phoenix .

My reasons include

A. She makes doomsday look comparatively normal when it comes to Plot-devices.

B. I dislike mutants , but i don't let that influence my choices.

Irrelevant

Originally posted by grey fox
C. All this crap about Jean being part of god is pure bullshit , if i ever meet the guy who came up with that face to face i will personally ram his head up his ass.

Noones talking about Jean being a part of God here. You seem to have confused yourself somewhere down the line. While its been suggested that the Phoenix is linked to Marvels supreme being by reference and its role on panel that notion isnt canon. What is canon is that Phoenix is the energies of creation and the life force of reality.

Originally posted by grey fox
Also , i wasn't gloating Gs . I was just stating that if you hadn't of taken my original post so seriously i wouldn't have had to write that long-ass post.

You disliked the fact that i dismissed your comments about SPB so you attempted to present what you thought was a credible strategy that conclusively showed why the house of El would win specifically against Phoenix. Afterwards you said next time i should next i should learn to take a joke as if you somehow thought your effort was a punishment.

It didnt work out.

Originally posted by grey fox
Oh one more thing , cut the 'This is from the source and the PF is from marvels equivalent of the source' Marvel has no source , your just making assumptions and it's hella annoying.

Do you know what exactly the Source is Grey Fox? Your comments suggest otherwise. The Source as stated on panel is the energies of creation in DC. It manifested into the void as the Big Bang and is the life force of DC creation.

The Phoenix Force is the energies of creation in Marvel. It was born from the void and manifested into reality as the Big Bang. It is the life force of Marvel creation. Sound familiar?

On top of that in a DC/Marvel crossover (Uncanny X-men/Teen Titans) the Phoenix Force and The Source were likened to each other

They are very much equivalents in their respective creations. Why? Because of role.

Know your stuff.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Irrelevant



Noones talking about Jean being a part of God here. You seem to have confused yourself somewhere down the line. While its been suggested that the Phoenix is linked to Marvels supreme being by reference and its role on panel that notion isnt canon. What is canon is that Phoenix is the energies of creation and the life force of reality.



You disliked the fact that i dismissed your comments about SPB so you attempted to present what you thought was a credible strategy that conclusively showed why the house of El would win specifically against Phoenix. Afterwards you said next time i should next i should learn to take a joke as if you somehow thought your effort was a punishment.

It didnt work out.



Do you know what exactly the Source is Grey Fox? Your comments suggest otherwise. The Source as stated on panel is the energies of creation in DC. It manifested into the void as the Big Bang and is the life force of DC creation.

The Phoenix Force is the energies of creation in Marvel. It was born from the void and manifested into reality as the Big Bang. It is the life force of Marvel creation. Sound familiar?

On top of that in a DC/Marvel crossover (Uncanny X-men/Teen Titans) the Phoenix Force and The Source were likened to each other

They are very much equivalents in their respective creations. Why? Because of role.

Know your stuff.

The source . (From my understanding) is a non specific/religious god/entity . It is from which all the 'super' stuff springs forth , thats why theirs such a thing as magic and green lantern rings and heat vision etc etc. The spectre is powered by the source.

Also you state throughout a few of your post's that phoenix is 'the left/right hand of god'

I'm a big enough man to admit that i was disgruntled by the way you slammed my post , but it was a joke. It wasn't a serious take on what the El family could do . Then i made the 'semi credible' argument out of that annoyance. The ending section was that you should have learnt to 'take a joke' .

Basically to not take every post so seriosuly.

Originally posted by grey fox
The source . (From my understanding) is a non specific/religious god/entity . It is from which all the 'super' stuff springs forth , thats why theirs such a thing as magic and green lantern rings and heat vision etc etc. The spectre is powered by the source.

And thats precisely my point. Your understanding is flawed. The Source is merely the energies of creation, which was both formed during and is the Big Bang which brought about DC creation. Nowhere is it stated that it powers the Spectre.

Originally posted by grey fox
Also you state throughout a few of your post's that phoenix is 'the left/right hand of god'

You arent involved in the more intense debates which take place on the forum so its understandable that you'd be behind on things. There was a big debate about the Phoenix Force nearly 6 months ago where most of JLAKMC debated and i said that while i still believed that the Phoenix Force is linked to Marvels supreme being as has been explicity implied on panel over the years as the point hasnt been stated or conclusively shown on panel i will not and cannot treat that god connection as canon. What is canon however is that the Force is the energies of creation and the life force of Marvel reality and of course its feats speak for themselves.

Thats all.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And thats precisely my point. Your understanding is flawed. The Source is merely the energies of creation, which was both formed during and is the Big Bang which brought about DC creation. Nowhere is it stated that it powers the Spectre.



You arent involved in the more intense debates which take place on the forum so its understandable that you'd be behind on things. There was a big debate about the Phoenix Force nearly 6 months ago where most of JLAKMC debated and i said that while i still believed that the Phoenix Force is linked to Marvels supreme being as has been explicity implied on panel over the years as the point hasnt been stated or conclusively shown on panel i will not and cannot treat that god connection as canon. What is canon however is that the Force is the energies of creation and the life force of Marvel reality and of course its feats speak for themselves.

Thats all.

Damn , well i got that wrong , ok so the Source is the energies of the Big-Bang.

And no i don't often get involved in those debates because .....


I've only really started getting noticed in the last few months so people don't treat me like an 'invisible face' and they actually comment upon what i'm saying.
I'm an Authority member.
I dislike the phoenix ..and mutants in general

Well thats cool, but either way there was no need to get worked up cos i discredited your argument, especially if it was a joke. I responded regardless because some people actually do believe that stuff about SPB's retcon punch and even more would start believing it by reading your apparrent joke, so i nipped it in the bud before threads or silly claims within threads were made by new posters.

it always ends up like this with pheonix

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If thats the case then the Summers family can call on the abstracts cos Phoenix is their "mother"

Jean Grey has no genetic relation to the abstracts. Before the 616 came into existence the Phoenix Force existed as did the Abstracts. The Jean manifestation is unique to the 616 and is predated by the abstracts of that universe.

No GS.

I'm trying not to get involved in this debate, but I'll hint that there's an argument for the Richards Family that hasn't been made that really needs to be. I realize the House of El and Summers Family may have the big names, but there's something to be said about "ingenuity"...

Originally posted by illadelph12
Jean Grey has no genetic relation to the abstracts. Before the 616 came into existence the Phoenix Force existed as did the Abstracts. The Jean manifestation is unique to the 616 and is predated by the abstracts of that universe.

Completely incorrect. Allow me to introduce you to the Jean Grey of the previous universe as featured in X-men Adventures which details the reality before 616:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=2/5307094756.jpg&s=x402

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=2/5307212334.jpg&s=x402

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=4/10212562637.jpg&s=x10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8808374683.jpg&s=x11

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8808390586.jpg&s=x11

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/12211531439.jpg&s=x402

Here she is saving existence from eternal damnation at the hands of the Dweller in the Darkness as detailed in both Phoenixes bio and Galactus':

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=4/11009103547.jpg&s=x11

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/12211424824.jpg&s=x402

The Jean Grey manifestation is not unique to 616. Jean Grey as stated in Classic X-men and New X-men and Endsong has always been Phoenix and as stated in the Phoenix bio Jean Grey is the Force.

With that in mind, the abstracts are just as much her children as Rachel is. They are spawned from her and she refers to all life the stars and the planets as her children


Originally posted by illadelph12
I'm trying not to get involved in this debate, but I'll hint that there's an argument for the Richards Family that hasn't been made that really needs to be. I realize the House of El and Summers Family may have the big names, but there's something to be said about "ingenuity"...

I bet its gonna be similarly non factorish

You'd better be glad I don't debate in my own threads!!

Come on people, use some creativity.

Originally posted by illadelph12
You'd better be glad I don't debate in my own threads!!

Come on people, use some creativity.

Good excuse Bring it on homie!!! Show me what ya got!!

Grrrr!!!!!

Damn you GS!!

If I debate in my own thread it will make it seem like I had a bias and pre-conceived victor for this thread beforehand, which would make presenting it for open debate pointless.

Basically, it would be a well guised spite thread.

I don't do that.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Grrrr!!!!!

Damn you GS!!

If I debate in my own thread it will make it seem like I had a bias and pre-conceived victor for this thread beforehand, which would make presenting it for open debate pointless.

Basically, it would be a well guised spite thread.

I don't do that.

Whatever you say son. You sit there and try and keep face.

Its quite obvious that you know your place. Dont feel shame my american friend, youre not alone

You know, I consider myself a pretty intelligent person, but I honestly can't tell whether you are goading me on, or actually understood my dilemma with that last post you made.

Where's demigawd and leonidas when you need them?

Originally posted by illadelph12
You know, I consider myself a pretty intelligent person, but I honestly can't tell whether you are goading me on, or actually understood my dilemma with that last post you made.

Me goad? I wouldnt dream of such a thing.

Either way mate, its cool. U dont have to step up to the challenge if you dont want to, i'll understand, foregone conclusion and all.

Ok, so you are goading me.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Ok, so you are goading me.



Phoenix wins

No decent counters?

Looks like she really does

Pheonix is in it?
If it is, and using full unbridled force, of course it wins. But that's a high end entity --force of creation itself vs some characters, lol.
Usually she -- jean-- is portrayed at like Silver Surfer, or maybe a small bit more level, though. If we consider that case, it's a much closer fight.
Either way, the Richards family generally falls short of the others.

Illadelph apparently has someone in mind from the Richards family tree who he believes stops them from being non factorish

Conveniently he doesnt get involved in his own threads

The only one that I can think of off the top of my head that would give the Franklin Family a decent shot, against the house of El at least, is Franklin Richards from Earth-X who "evolves" into Galactus, so to speak. But since Superman doesn't get his sword and unless there are characters we are missing it would seem that the Phoenix would put the Summers family on top.

Rachel as Phoenix (one of it's weaker forms) beat Galactus, people put to much stock in Franklin because he created a pocket realm, that existed in his ball. Onslaught was a astral being made real, when he trapped people they were inside him, there is nothing that says the world he made wasn't just a reverse of what Nate Grey taught Xaiver. He caused an uproar before, but he was neutralized. As an adult he was nothing more than a powerful telekinetic telepath who could manipulate energy, what Summers/Grey isn't at least one of those! F Doom and his added lineage it won't make a difference, not one that'll let them win anyway.

Well thats that Ill. Get involved or this thread is pretty much done for

Bumping.