Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Jacen Solo in Traitor against Yoda. Force and lightsaber battle. Battle in the training room in the Jedi Temple. Who wins?

Yoda easily. No argument needed really, Jacen is far too inexperienced to fight somone of Yodas caliber even if he does perhaps have a higher potential.

Yoda, but definatly not "easily".

Jacen's strength is a mystery to me. I only read (argh) the Crystal Star (big mistake). What is he capable of?

Eh, I'd say Yoda wins pretty damn easily.

Originally posted by Razielim
Yoda, but definatly not "easily".

if this was TUF jacen...

Even if it were TUF Jacen Yoda would take him. I assume that this is Jacen at his peak in Traitor, which I believe is when he is surrounded by the Amphistaffs. Even then, I can see Yoda taking him.

If it was Jacen at the end of TUF, during his light show, he'd demolish Yoda.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If it was Jacen at the end of TUF, during his light show, he'd demolish Yoda.


If it was Jacen *during* his lightshow, then perhaps...otherwise no he gets demolished due to lack of experience.


Sorry, for once I have to disagree with you.

No perhaos, Jacen pretty much achieves a state of oneness with the force, can't beat that

BS. Let's see your support. And claiming that he became the force avatar doesn't mean anything, as that alone doesn't mean he'd defeat Yoda, nor doesn't it even mean that it made him especially powerful. It could very well mean that he had increased ability to urinate far distances, nothing more.

Page 471: "He had merged with the force in its entirety."

And...you have what to say now? Mmhm, thought so.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No perhaos, Jacen pretty much achieves a state of oneness with the force, can't beat that


That wasnt due to his power, it was due to the force choosing him as a conduit. Jacen says himself he would never be able to repeat the feat, and disregarding that one feat, there is nothing to suggest Jacen would have a chance against a 900 year old *epitome of the light* jedi master.

And Yoda could defeat the guy who just merged with the force in its entirety? Became a pure conduit to its raw power

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Yoda could defeated the guy who just merged with the force in its entirety? Became a pure conduit to its raw power

What?

The Unifying Force, page 471

You thought that I would say that doesn't prove anything? Good.

That doesn't mean that he is now powerful enough to defeat Yoda. What do you think Ben did when he became one with the force? I doubt you would call Ben's force ghost strong enough to defeat Yoda even though he had fully merged with the force.

Page 471. Became a pure conduit to the pure raw power of the force..

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Unifying Force, page 471

Read my post, it explained why Jacen could become one with the force, it was entirely due to the circumstance of the force *choosing* him...not Jacens own power.

Regardless of why or how, the force's pure power was being channeled through him

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Regardless of why or how, the force's pure power was being channeled through him

And that is irrelevent, because in a duel with a Yoda he wouldnt be able to repeat the feat.

I said it was DURING his lightshow, meaning if he was channeling the force

Yeah, apparently LS doesn't realize that TUF is AFTER Traitor.

Second, he can't prove how Jacen being one with the force would make him strong enough to defeat Yoda even if this was in TUF.

If Jacen had all the force power in the universe in his grasp, why didn't everyone else die, as life cannot exist without the force. Everyone in the galaxy should have instantly died if Jacen had the force's full power.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I said it was DURING his lightshow, meaning if he was channeling the force

Yes, if it was during his lightshow then no other being in the SW universe would be capable of defeating Jacen. Otherwise Jacen loses.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Yes, if it was during his lightshow then no other being in the SW universe would be capable of defeating Jacen. Otherwise Jacen loses.

Hardly. There is nothing to indicate that it made his super-uber or anything. Just strong enough to defeat Onmi, who was an untrained force-user with low potential.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Hardly. There is nothing to indicate that it made his super-uber or anything. Just strong enough to defeat Onmi, who was an untrained force-user with low potential.

If he truly was one with the force, as the book describes, then theres nothing really to it Glentract. You cant defeat the force itself...

...being one with the force doesn't equal power? Being part of the enrgy field encompassing all life?

However, Jacen being in his lightshow form is an irrelevent hypothetical situation that has no bearing on this fight. Jacen loses, as I said in my first post.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
If he truly was one with the force, as the book describes, then theres nothing really to it Glentract. You cant defeat the force itself...
Spock could...

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
If he truly was one with the force, as the book describes, then theres nothing really to it Glentract. You cant defeat the force itself...

And Yoda became "one with the force" in ROTJ. That doesn't mean that he gained all the power of the force. As mentioned, if he used all of the power of the force, everything else wouldn't exist. And again, all he did was defeat Onimi, a feat that's not all that impressive in the first place.

The line is never substantiated with any application to this fight. He still loses to Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Even if it were TUF Jacen Yoda would take him. I assume that this is Jacen at his peak in Traitor, which I believe is when he is surrounded by the Amphistaffs. Even then, I can see Yoda taking him.
I cant see either of them winning to be honest i say its a draw, but purplesaber your sig rocks because maul is in it i like your style

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
Spock could...
....Jesus he knows not what he does

Originally posted by Illustrious
And Yoda became "one with the force" in ROTJ. That doesn't mean that he gained all the power of the force. As mentioned, if he used all of the power of the force, everything else wouldn't exist. And again, all he did was defeat Onimi, a feat that's not all that impressive in the first place.

The line is never substantiated with any application to this fight. He still loses to Yoda.

There's a difference between joining the force in death and becoming a pure conduit while achieving a unity with the force while you're still alive...and you;'re applying a set of logic that's obviously incorrect to the Force, it's like the god of SW, there's no true way to understand it and we know what's written: Jacen channeled the full power of the Force.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's a difference between joining the force in death and becoming a pure conduit while achieving a unity with the force while you're still alive...and you;'re applying a set of logic that's obviously incorrect to the Force, it's like the god of SW, there's no true way to understand it and we know what's written: Jacen channeled the full power of the Force.

Everyone "channels" the force. In the novelization, Luke channeled the force to draw his damn saber to him in ESB. That was effective.

The fact of the matter that both lines, "becoming one with the force" and "being a conduit of its power" are not conclusive. You can twist them around all you like, but you should argue with what's there and the logical inference thereof, not what you want there to be.

It's an easy copout to say "well, you can't understand the force, therefore I'm right."

And not every becomes one with the force while they're alive and becomes a 'pure conduit' to its raw power.

And Jacen has a two page description of what he's done. The book says in no uncertain terms Jacen achieves a sense of oneness with the Force and channe;s the entirety of its power. He even realizes he is one with everything. He connects with everything in the galaxy on a molecular level, goes beyond life and death, good and evil, eels his consciousness strewn to every living thing in the galaxy and wields the entire power of the force as one.

Originally posted by Illustrious
And Yoda became "one with the force" in ROTJ. That doesn't mean that he gained all the power of the force. As mentioned, if he used all of the power of the force, everything else wouldn't exist. And again, all he did was defeat Onimi, a feat that's not all that impressive in the first place.

The line is never substantiated with any application to this fight. He still loses to Yoda.


Erm, read the book.


It describes in detail what happened, Jacen became a conduit to the force itself, which is how it acted its will(to destroy Omni and end the Vong threat). Yoda simply died and became part of the force, it isnt the same as having the force act its will.

"As mentioned, if he used all of the power of the force, everything else wouldn't exist."

O RLY? What is the basis of that observation? Jacen had no need to use the *full* power of the force, only what was needed to defeat Onimi.

I never disagreed Jacen loses to Yoda, unless Jacen just so happens to be in his *lightshow* form.

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
Spock could...

Thats a given. To think otherwise, is logical fallacy.

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
I cant see either of them winning to be honest i say its a draw, but purplesaber your sig rocks because maul is in it i like your style
Gracias!