Thanos with IG vs. Darkseid with ALE

leonidas

okay. this is info from orion 16-18.

according to clockwerx, guardian of the tree of life/knowledge, the ecruos is the 'negation of all that is', the 'great enemy of the source itself'. speaking honestly, i'm not entirely sure is was a multiversal entity (is there such a thing in dc cosmology??) but it was a multiversal level threat. (THAT was my initial explanation. remembering after a few months i recalled my thoughts as multiversal entity -- no one knows WHERE it came from . . .)

the ecruos's purpose was the destruction of the tree of life, the provenence of all creation. the ecruos was destroying the tree. each time the tiniest branch fell from the tree, a world or even a galaxy died . . . ecruos overthrew the guardian of the tree, clockwerx, then set about destroying it.

here's a bit from simonson himself on clockwerx:

"I was inspired to a certain extent by the tales of Lord Dunsany, one of the earliest and best writers of fantasy. And by some of my own readings in mythology as well. I wanted to create a realm free of time, the cosmic axis of the universe where time does not exist except as an eternal present. It's the realm where stars are born, from where all actual time flows. This borrows a little from Mircea Eliade's writings on myth and its meaning. He explored the idea of time in myth as having two natures, an eternal mythological time, and a renewable 'secular' time. Dunsany in one of his stories had a wonderful image of a great beast or being turning the pages of a huge book, black to white, white to black, as the nights turned into day and back again. And of course, I'm influenced by Norse mythology as well since that's one of my interests.

anyway, the ecruos was chaos, which is why when orion freely gave up the ale to the creature, it was destroyed. the ale is 'perfect order'. with it, orion threatened to 'ignite a universal holocaust.' at the very least, orion could have used the ale to destroy the universe.

the ecruos reminds me very much of nidhoggr, the creature of norse myths that gnaws at yggdrasil. however, the way dc is set up, both clockwerx and ecruos seemed more like vertigo-type characters (lucifer et al, . . .) i found the cosmology that simonson outlined very cool, but i'm not sure how it fits in with dc's overall cosmology.

nonethless, ecruos was enormously powerful (anti-source it is named elsewhere) and the ale was powerful to destroy the universe which would put its power on at least the universal scale, depending on how you view dc. it doesn't really have a multiversal scheme, so universe means more in dc than marvel.

oh, and orion was a GREAT series!! wink

the Darkone

I've been told the Infinity Gauntlet = Anti-Life Equations in their respective universe.

Redatom65

Darkseid is a god Thanos is a titan read ur mythos....Darkseid wins

Big Sexy

Originally posted by Redatom65
Darkseid is a god Thanos is a titan read ur mythos....Darkseid wins

So that must make Superman an anti-god since he loves handing Darkseid his ass.

BlaqChaos

Originally posted by Redatom65
Darkseid is a god Thanos is a titan read ur mythos....Darkseid wins The Gods had help from the Hecatonchires, the Gigantes and Cyclopes; so the Titans were outnumbered and the battle STILL lasted a decade.

In this battle, DS is on his own. Thanos owns him like Cronus would've owned Zues in a one-on-one. stick out tongue

batdude123

Originally posted by Redatom65
Darkseid is a god Thanos is a titan read ur mythos....Darkseid wins

I though in mythology, Titans were above the gods. confused

the Darkone

Thanos is an eternal/titan, tiitan means tha moon of saturn where half of the earth eteranls resides now. Thanos in greek means, death (thanatos).

BlaqChaos

Originally posted by batdude123
I though in mythology, Titans were above the gods. confused

They were. Which is why the Gods needed major back-up and a decade of fighting to beat them.

Redatom65

wait he's on his own now?

BlaqChaos

Originally posted by Tallis
Thanos with Infinity Gauntlet vs. Darkseid with the Anti-Life Equation Yep, nobody else mentioned.

GODSCRIBE

Just check the sig.

Darksaint

Originally posted by leonidas
okay. this is info from orion 16-18.

according to clockwerx, guardian of the tree of life/knowledge, the ecruos is the 'negation of all that is', the 'great enemy of the source itself'. speaking honestly, i'm not entirely sure is was a multiversal entity (is there such a thing in dc cosmology??) but it was a multiversal level threat. (THAT was my initial explanation. remembering after a few months i recalled my thoughts as multiversal entity -- no one knows WHERE it came from . . .)

the ecruos's purpose was the destruction of the tree of life, the provenence of all creation. the ecruos was destroying the tree. each time the tiniest branch fell from the tree, a world or even a galaxy died . . . ecruos overthrew the guardian of the tree, clockwerx, then set about destroying it.

here's a bit from simonson himself on clockwerx:

"I was inspired to a certain extent by the tales of Lord Dunsany, one of the earliest and best writers of fantasy. And by some of my own readings in mythology as well. I wanted to create a realm free of time, the cosmic axis of the universe where time does not exist except as an eternal present. It's the realm where stars are born, from where all actual time flows. This borrows a little from Mircea Eliade's writings on myth and its meaning. He explored the idea of time in myth as having two natures, an eternal mythological time, and a renewable 'secular' time. Dunsany in one of his stories had a wonderful image of a great beast or being turning the pages of a huge book, black to white, white to black, as the nights turned into day and back again. And of course, I'm influenced by Norse mythology as well since that's one of my interests.

anyway, the ecruos was chaos, which is why when orion freely gave up the ale to the creature, it was destroyed. the ale is 'perfect order'. with it, orion threatened to 'ignite a universal holocaust.' at the very least, orion could have used the ale to destroy the universe.

the ecruos reminds me very much of nidhoggr, the creature of norse myths that gnaws at yggdrasil. however, the way dc is set up, both clockwerx and ecruos seemed more like vertigo-type characters (lucifer et al, . . .) i found the cosmology that simonson outlined very cool, but i'm not sure how it fits in with dc's overall cosmology.

nonethless, ecruos was enormously powerful (anti-source it is named elsewhere) and the ale was powerful to destroy the universe which would put its power on at least the universal scale, depending on how you view dc. it doesn't really have a multiversal scheme, so universe means more in dc than marvel.

oh, and orion was a GREAT series!! wink

Well, according to this the ALE is multiversal having taking on the Anti-Source.

Darkseid w/ALE wins this over Thanos with IG

leonidas

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
They were. Which is why the Gods needed major back-up and a decade of fighting to beat them.

the titans were not 'above' the olympians, they were their precursors. after all, it was zeus who castrated cronos. eek!

just as cronos before him castrated uranus after the titans themselves revolted. according to most sources, the titans also outnumbered the olympian gods in the titanomachy. during the war (titanomachy), the gods and titans stalemated. the 100-handed and the cyclopes were freed at the 10 year mark of the war, and it was the 3 cyclopes ho made the biggest difference by forging zeus's lightning bolts (among others things). the 100-handed threw rocks and zeus hurled lightning and thus the gods beat the titans after a long war.

wink

Mr Master

The Anti-Life Equation is a conscious entity, aware of it's own existence, and it's power is on an unimaginable scale.

The "equation" itself,(that can be harnessed and was carried by Mr Miracle is but a portion of it's entirety).

When it was born(ALE)it's birth caused a two-hundred-square-light-year area of space to be reduced to cosmic dust.

Darkseid also said about the ALE, "only a fraction of this nightmare's power will be enough to bring my reality to it's knees", obviously meaning his universe or perhaps his multiverse, since when he said this he was in the ALE's other-dimensional realm.

By the way, towards the end of that series Dr Fate - HighFather - Orion - Etrigen and even Darkseid join together to form a unity called the "Cosmic Cinque of Power", this union controlled by Dr Fate, was powerful enough to destroy realities, and yet even it was not enough to defeat the ALE, they had to fly away for their lives, literally, and destroy the universe between theirs and the ALE so it would not have annihilated them.

leonidas

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Anti-Life Equation is a conscious entity, aware of it's own existence, and it's power is on an unimaginable scale.

The "equation" itself,(that can be harnessed and was carried by Mr Miracle is but a portion of it's entirety).

When it was born(ALE)it's birth caused a two-hundred-square-light-year area of space to be reduced to cosmic dust.

Darkseid also said about the ALE, "only a fraction of this nightmare's power will be enough to bring my reality to it's knees", obviously meaning his universe or perhaps his multiverse, since when he said this he was in the ALE's other-dimensional realm.

By the way, towards the end of that series Dr Fate - HighFather - Orion - Etrigen and even Darkseid join together to form a unity called the "Cosmic Cinque of Power", this union controlled by Dr Fate, was powerful enough to destroy realities, and yet even it was not enough to defeat the ALE, they had to fly away for their lives, literally, and destroy the universe between theirs and the ALE so it would not have annihilated them.

that's cosmic odyssey. as i said earlier, i'm not at all sure that's canon. it pretty well CAN'T be if orion IS.

Mider

if orion is canon it would still point to a multiversal level danger wouldnt it?

leonidas

that's what i think as well. the tree represented EVERYTHING. least that's my interpretation.

that does NOT necessarily mean ecruos was a multiversal entity. he did somehow enter the absymal plane (where the tre is) when only the dead/'lost' are supossed to be and beating clockwerx and killing the tree are testaments of enormous power. being the graet enemy of the source is also interesting . . .

Mider

the source>IG doesnt it not even the omega effects that have hurt spectre, and anti monitor, can hurt someone who is protected by the source, isnt the source one of the only things above the spectre? When spectre killed darkseid who was it who remade darkseid, the presance or the spectre, if it was the source then the source is way up there to do that and is probably above the spectre thus above the IG

leonidas

it's the essence of life, a parallel in practical (if not implemented) terms to the phoenix force. as for where it ranks with spectre -- if i'm not mistaken, they are both different aspects of the same 'all-powerful'/god source. that is, NEITHER os technically 'above' the other in the way that you mean. gs is up on recent spectre, as is juntai. one of them could probably explain the relationship between the 2 better than i could, but i think that's the basic crux of it.

the omega effect is NOT source related in anyway, so it's not surprising the OE would not affetc spectre. where he seid use it on spectre?

the astro-force otoh IS a direct manifestation of the source. it is its 'destructive' face, so to speak. it has been called the WRATH of the source. to me, that would make the astroforce very similar to whatever type of power it is that the spectre wields. i'd love to know more about that particular relationship as well. it's also why i think the astroforce is right there at the top of the list of powers, above power cosmic, power primordial and gl energy, AND the OE. it's orion's limited control and access to it that makes it LESS than it could be.

oh, and orion rocks!!!!!!!

Darksaint

And that's why, imo, there would be few that can beat Orion at his full potential, with better control of the Astro Force,(not full since you can't really have full control of the Source, just a portion of its power). I'd put put him close to Spectre levels. The Astro Force is one of the most powerful powers there is, only top by the Spectre Force. With better control and more access to Orion, Orion would be in Phoenix-like levels, since the Phoenix represents all there is in Marvel, and the Source represents all there is in DC.

Mider

soooooooooo ALE wins?

RUNMAN

Thanos with IG wins. The ALE is too mysterious and mythical enough for me to believe that it may not be that much...

I've not seen anything tangible to prove that the ALE is more powerful than the IG. The IG is more versatile and creative assuming for argument's sake that they are equal in terms of power...

Big Sexy

Their was a story arc, though its not in continuity that Darkseid had the ALE but in that arc it seems very weak. Maybe the writer didn't know was he was doing.

Mider

ALE has already been shown to beat an enemy of the source so ALE wins

Dayscribe

http://www.junkscience.com/JSJ_Course/jsjudocourse/wrong.jpg

leonidas

Originally posted by RUNMAN
Thanos with IG wins. The ALE is too mysterious and mythical enough for me to believe that it may not be that much...

I've not seen anything tangible to prove that the ALE is more powerful than the IG. The IG is more versatile and creative assuming for argument's sake that they are equal in terms of power...

that's partially true, though i've mentioned how powerful orion was with it -- power to destroy the universe if he chose. it STILL remains a bit of a mystery and open to the interpretation of the writer. still, the versatility of the ig may be an issue. i can't rule out a possible speed blitz from thanos. he may well be able to react more quickly than darkseid in this case and get in a first attack that would end it. i do think it would come down to who could attack who first. if darkseid commanded him to lay down the ig or obliterate himself with it, i think there's a very good chance thanos would do just that.

bottom line on the ale is there was no limit SHOWN to its power, so its hard to speculate WHAT level it's at. i think it CAN be reasonably assumed that the ale is at least at the ig level, seeing as how it was at least at universal levels, but again, (looking at it logically) the versatilty of the ig may still be enough to get the win for thanos.

Lord Urizen

I go for Thanos here.

I may not know a whole deal about the Anti Life Equation, all i know is that Darksied has made it his quest to discover it. Did he ever discover it by the way ?

Thanos with the Infiniti Gauntlet is way too powerful though to be taken out easily by Darksied with ALE. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not likely in my opinion. Just think about it....

Reality Time Power Mind Soul Space

With the IG Thanos has power over all these aspects. It's not just about being able to destroy universes, OBVIOUSLY if Thanos easily destroyed half the Universe with a command, he can destroy the entire Universe with another.....

The Power Gem contains INFINITE POWER..don't forget that. The Reality Gem allows Thanos to alter the facts of reality to his desires.

If it was the Marvel Universe, Thanos would win no doubt , but same for Darksied in DCU since IG doesn't work there.

Let's say a neutral universe where both objects work.

Now someone is going to argue that the ALE is multiversal while the IG is universal....this is only accepted because its assumed. If Thanos could easily erase his universe with IG, who says he couldn't continue erasing more universes with more simple commands?

I don't buy the Universal VS Multiversal debate in this case because who says the IG can only affect one universe?

Read THANOS QUEST...that infinite being that Thanos was talking about was said to have been responsbile for the creation of all realities. If you're telling me that's BS, then you're telling me that Thanos was either uneducated in his description (Even though he obtained this knowledge from Mistress Death's Infiniti Well) or that he's just full of S*** which i refuse to beleive.

Mider

ALE beat a multiversal thread IG cant do that

Doctor SKank

Originally posted by Mider
ALE beat a multiversal thread IG cant do that

Multiversal thread ??????? We haven't had many of those !

leonidas

i was under the impression that the gauntlet being creating everything was retconned. anyone know for sure? if not, i'm not at all sure how it would fit in current cosmology. sad

as far as the ale, like i said it has had many interpretations. starlin saw it as a living creature, capable of casually destroying entire dimensions and with power to destroy the universe. in emperor joker, darkseid alludes to the fact that joker stumbled on the equation which implies the equation may be somehow related to the 5d imps and their ability to control reality. there are others, but what's clear is that it really is open to interpretations of writers. if it granted imp-like control of the universe, as well as the full power of command or mental usurpation, 'seid would certainly be a very real threat to thanos.

about your question regarding darkseid -- in rock of ages, it was alluded that in a future timeline ds DID gain the equation and easily conquered earth and new genesis with it, but not much more was said i don't think.

it's an interesting match up. i've always found the ale fascinating, not least because kirby left it as such a mystery (sort of like dickens' "edwin drood"!) it would be cool if someone did a definitive version of it though. sad

Lord Urizen

{ALE beat a multiversal thread IG cant do that}

Okay Mider, what multiversal threat was this?

Secondly, how do you know IG cannot destroy more than one universe within the Marvel Multiverse. In Thanos Quest, the Infitini Gems derived from the remains of an Omnipotent being who was the embodyment of all realities. This being chose to end itself because it was lonely: Everything that ever existed or anything new it created was only a fraction of itself, therefore it had no other. It was a completely infinite being, and its end gave birth to all the realities that exist. Thanos explains this to the Runner before he took his Space Gem.

You're telling me that the power that came from this being cannot match the ALE?

Mider

i dont think thats true that he is infinite the gems are not all powerful they have controll over ONE universe if that being is so infinite then its powers would be multiversal which there not as already stated, JLA/Avengers already proved that while it may not be canon to one company it might be to the other and thus should not be thrown out as bull.

bean_machine

Well Darkseid after a chugging some good ale could do it.

cheersdrunk

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

I don't buy the Universal VS Multiversal debate in this case because who says the IG can only affect one universe?

The IG was shown in the canon JLA/Avengers crossover to only be able to work in Marvel. Regardless as per forum rules that fact doesnt matter as they would be fighting in a area where both of their powers work as normal.

As for the range of the IG, the scale of its power, it is very much universal as stated on panel and as confirmed at Marvunapp, the site made up by the writers of the handbooks. The IG gives the power to manipulate the facets of an actuality, a universe, nothing more.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Read THANOS QUEST...that infinite being that Thanos was talking about was said to have been responsbile for the creation of all realities. If you're telling me that's BS, then you're telling me that Thanos was either uneducated in his description (Even though he obtained this knowledge from Mistress Death's Infiniti Well) or that he's just full of S*** which i refuse to beleive.

For a start, not once in Thanos Quest did it say that the Infinity Being was responsible for the creation of all realities. What was actually stated was that there was a time when it was the only being alive in all realities, (thus telling you that it wasnt responsible for the creation all realities) and after it chose to end its life out of loneliness its body created 616. That was the universal origin Jim Starlin put forward in the early 90's, however before this origin and since this origin was presented, the Phoenix Force was put forward as the spark that births realities. The Phoenix Force is stated to be the Big Bang which birthed 616, it is how it was reborn into reality after the M'kraan crystal destroyed the previous multiverse (as depicted in the canon X-men Adventures #12, which you can find referenced in last years Phoenix Force and Galactus bios). So basically it appears the Infinity Being origin was retconned and it reverted to the Phoenix Force. On top of that the latest Handbook says that apparently both the Power Primordial (which the Elders of the Universe use) and the Infinity Gems all draw power from the Big Bang, which we've been told is the Phoenix.

GalacticStorm

Just to further confirm current continuity, here are some scans from the latest issue of Uncanny x-men, released yesterday:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4082/uncannyxmen09473edited5ya.th.jpg

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8135/uncannyxmen10473edited2ru.th.jpg

The Phoenix Force manifests as the Big Bang as stated in its bio, it is the life force of reality and as creation in Marvel is a closed system, that in turn means that any and all energy that exists in Marvel creation, derives from the Phoenix Force. The IG as stated in the Champions bio derives energy from the Big Bang, the IG is therefore in some fashion powered by the Phoenix Force.

S.S

Who's this "first fallen" guy?

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by S.S
Who's this "first fallen" guy?

He's the opposite of Phoenix. He wants to end the creation cycle that the Phoenix perpetuates. That could mean the universe would never come to an end or possibly never be reborn. Hes only just been introduced this issue.

I take it youre a Nintendo fan? What do you think about the Wii? I cant wait to get Smash Bros, Mario Galaxy, Red Steel and Zelda. Theyre the titles im gonna buy when it launches in the U.K.

S.S

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He's the opposite of Phoenix. He wants to end the creation cycle that the Phoenix perpetuates. That could mean the universe would never come to an end or possibly never be reborn. Hes only just been introduced this issue.

I take it youre a Nintendo fan? What do you think about the Wii? I cant wait to get Smash Bros, Mario Galaxy, Red Steel and Zelda. Theyre the titles im gonna buy when it launches in the U.K.
Nintendo's the shit..........cool have you seen the new Smash bros video?
Solid snake from MGS is in it now....... laughing

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by S.S
Nintendo's the shit..........cool have you seen the new Smash bros video?
Solid snake from MGS is in it now....... laughing

Yeah i know, i woke up early this morning to watch the E3 trailers. That was so funny. Hes gonna be able to use that cardboard box in the game lol.

Youre up early. Isnt it like 6.30 am over in the U.S?

S.S

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yeah i know, i woke up early this morning to watch the E3 trailers. That was so funny. Hes gonna be able to use that cardboard box in the game lol.

Youre up early. Isnt it like 6.30 am over in the U.S?
Yup here in New york I'm going to work in about 45 minutes.
The box is great,It also looked like they might have some special finishing moves.

leonidas

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The IG was shown in the canon JLA/Avengers crossover to only be able to work in Marvel. Regardless as per forum rules that fact doesnt matter as they would be fighting in a area where both of their powers work as normal.

As for the range of the IG, the scale of its power, it is very much universal as stated on panel and as confirmed at Marvunapp, the site made up by the writers of the handbooks. The IG gives the power to manipulate the facets of an actuality, a universe, nothing more.

For a start, not once in Thanos Quest did it say that the Infinity Being was responsible for the creation of all realities. What was actually stated was that there was a time when it was the only being alive in all realities, (thus telling you that it wasnt responsible for the creation all realities) and after it chose to end its life out of loneliness its body created 616. That was the universal origin Jim Starlin put forward in the early 90's, however before this origin and since this origin was presented, the Phoenix Force was put forward as the spark that births realities. The Phoenix Force is stated to be the Big Bang which birthed 616, it is how it was reborn into reality after the M'kraan crystal destroyed the previous multiverse (as depicted in the canon X-men Adventures #12, which you can find referenced in last years Phoenix Force and Galactus bios). So basically it appears the Infinity Being origin was retconned and it reverted to the Phoenix Force. On top of that the latest Handbook says that apparently both the Power Primordial (which the Elders of the Universe use) and the Infinity Gems all draw power from the Big Bang, which we've been told is the Phoenix.

laughing

that's sort of what i thought . . . i just really didn't feel like digging through books to find thanos quest.

one more misconception clearled up, courtesy of your friendly neighbourhood jlakmc.

wink

Lord Urizen

Then it HAd to be a retcon situation.

In Thanos Quest Thanos stated "This being was All that was and all that was was it" "Thie being was Infitini and forever" "No one would fault you if you were to call it God, what other name would fit?"

Okay...that part gave me the impression that the power of the IG being was above anything anywhere in any universe within Marvel continuum

But...now that im re reading it...Thanos also says "From its ashes rose all that is currently REALITY, in all its many forms"..I guess Reality meaning Universe, as in singular, not plural universes.

Okay, first of all i didn't need clearance on the fact that it only worked in Marvel, I already stated that when I said it doesn't work in DC. The ALE wouldn't work in Marvel either, however.

But, I was under the impression that it could work beyond the Marvel 616 Universe. Does that mean that there are OTHER Infitini Gems in other marvel universes, or are the only 6 (or 7) gems existant in ONE Marvel universe, and if so, why just the 616 ?

So If Thanos would have moved from his universe with the IG to another alternate reality, his power would have been null and void ?

Hmm..i dont thnk so. Have you read issues of Silver Surfer that were supposed to happen during the Infitini Gauntlet? You'll find that the events in those issues totally contradict the original IG series...i figured those were alternate realities where Thanos was able to do much more than he did in the IG saga.

I figured those were other universes where Thanos extended his reach.

Do you guys remember (For those of you who did read Thanos Quest) when Thanos travelled to the Nexus of Reality. His trek brought him through "strange myriad dimensions" "Inconcievable realities" as Thanos said, all to find the In-Betweener and his soul gem, and Thanos survived every adjustment to each reality he travelled into.

The Nexus was said to have been the melding place of Chaos and Order, the falcrum of existance. Why would Thanos travel all the way here to find ONE of the Infitini Gems, if it was powerless here.

What I'm saying is from my knowledge, I beleive there is only one set of Infitini Gems in the Marvel Multiverse, and if that's the case, it's power has to be able to reach and affect all that is beyond the 616 Universe.

If its been retconned otherwise, than I guess all of this was for nothing, but if it was retconned then what a rip off. Don't get me wrong, I love the Pheonix and the Pheonix Force idea, but at one time I think the IG was meant to be the ULTAMATE weapon Marvel had, until the new writers came up with HOTU and had to downsize the IG, otherwise the HOTU wouldn't have been a big deal.

Ne ways, I need to know more about the Anti Life Equation, even though you guys stated theres not a lot known about it. I trust that it is Multiversal like you guys said but what can you do with it ? Just because its multiversal doesn't make it better necessarily....Chaos and Order were supposed to be multiveral entities since thier realm exists in the center of all realities, yet even they were easily toppled by Thanos w IG.

What can you do with ALE? Anything you want? If it's an extensice reality controling weapon, and its influence is farther than the Infiniti Gems, then I'll admit that Darksied probably will take it.

But give me some info, cuz right now im not totally convinced.

Thanks : P

Juntai

Thanos has a limited comprehension, he found an even greater source of power later on, and presumed the same exact thing about it that he did originally about the Infinity Gauntlet.

Lord Urizen

If I were to read the Heart of the universe story, then yeah I would probably think Thanos boasts were tiring, but in the Infitini Gauntlet saga, he gazed into the Infitini Well which expands your mind to infinite levels, therefore your comprehension cannot be limitted while discovery within the Infitini Well.

I beleive Thanos and the IG to be victim to retcon plain and simple. I think Marvel came up with HOTU because they wanted to come up with something "cooler" and more dangerous than the IG. Therefore downsize Infitini Gauntlet, so that HOTU can actually make a difference.

Anyways, what is all known about what you can do with ALE ?

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Then it HAd to be a retcon situation.

In Thanos Quest Thanos stated "This being was All that was and all that was was it" "Thie being was Infitini and forever" "No one would fault you if you were to call it God, what other name would fit?"

Okay...that part gave me the impression that the power of the IG being was above anything anywhere in any universe within Marvel continuum

But...now that im re reading it...Thanos also says "From its ashes rose all that is currently REALITY, in all its many forms"..I guess Reality meaning Universe, as in singular, not plural universes.

Glad thats all cleared up for u LU. wink

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Okay, first of all i didn't need clearance on the fact that it only worked in Marvel, I already stated that when I said it doesn't work in DC. The ALE wouldn't work in Marvel either, however.

Which is irrelevant given forum rules.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But, I was under the impression that it could work beyond the Marvel 616 Universe. Does that mean that there are OTHER Infitini Gems in other marvel universes, or are the only 6 (or 7) gems existant in ONE Marvel universe, and if so, why just the 616 ?

I never said that the Gauntlet couldnt function in any reality other than 616. That was a misinterpretation on your part.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So If Thanos would have moved from his universe with the IG to another alternate reality, his power would have been null and void ?

Hmm..i dont thnk so. Have you read issues of Silver Surfer that were supposed to happen during the Infitini Gauntlet? You'll find that the events in those issues totally contradict the original IG series...i figured those were alternate realities where Thanos was able to do much more than he did in the IG saga.

I figured those were other universes where Thanos extended his reach.

Do you guys remember (For those of you who did read Thanos Quest) when Thanos travelled to the Nexus of Reality. His trek brought him through "strange myriad dimensions" "Inconcievable realities" as Thanos said, all to find the In-Betweener and his soul gem, and Thanos survived every adjustment to each reality he travelled into.

The Nexus was said to have been the melding place of Chaos and Order, the falcrum of existance. Why would Thanos travel all the way here to find ONE of the Infitini Gems, if it was powerless here.

Misinterpretation. wink

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What I'm saying is from my knowledge, I beleive there is only one set of Infitini Gems in the Marvel Multiverse, and if that's the case, it's power has to be able to reach and affect all that is beyond the 616 Universe.

Theres no reason why the IG shouldnt be able to affect another universe within Marvel, however it couldnt do so whilst simultaneously effecting 616, the Gauntlet as stated only has universal scale power. It can give a wielder virtually total control over a single reality at a time. I think all the confusion has arisen over the claim that the IG can only affect one universe. You interpreted that as meaning it could only function in 616, whereas what could have been meant (and what is true) is that it has universal power so it cant provide mastery over more than one reality at a time

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If its been retconned otherwise, than I guess all of this was for nothing, but if it was retconned then what a rip off. Don't get me wrong, I love the Pheonix and the Pheonix Force idea, but at one time I think the IG was meant to be the ULTAMATE weapon Marvel had, until the new writers came up with HOTU and had to downsize the IG, otherwise the HOTU wouldn't have been a big deal.

Fair enough, thats your opinion. However if you think about it, given the multiversal feats of the Phoenix, (something beyond the IGs power to accomplish) even back then in the 90's it wasnt the ultimate power, despite how it was presented. Phoenix was conveniently left out of the Infinity Sagas.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ne ways, I need to know more about the Anti Life Equation, even though you guys stated theres not a lot known about it. I trust that it is Multiversal like you guys said but what can you do with it ? Just because its multiversal doesn't make it better necessarily....Chaos and Order were supposed to be multiveral entities since thier realm exists in the center of all realities, yet even they were easily toppled by Thanos w IG.

Nope. Re-read Thanos Quest and you will see it states that there realm is the nexus of this reality. It is not plural for a reason. The nexus of all realities is the M'kraan crystal. As stated on panel there is a Chaos and Order in every universe, they are not multiversal beings.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If I were to read the Heart of the universe story, then yeah I would probably think Thanos boasts were tiring, but in the Infitini Gauntlet saga, he gazed into the Infitini Well which expands your mind to infinite levels, therefore your comprehension cannot be limitted while discovery within the Infitini Well.

The Infinity Well is a tool that can be used to supply infinite knowledge, how Thanos with his finite senses and understanding interprets that knowledge is totally different.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I beleive Thanos and the IG to be victim to retcon plain and simple. I think Marvel came up with HOTU because they wanted to come up with something "cooler" and more dangerous than the IG. Therefore downsize Infitini Gauntlet, so that HOTU can actually make a difference.

Anyways, what is all known about what you can do with ALE ?

Youre correct, the IG was the victim of a retcon however youre wrong in saying it was Marvel: The End that brought that about. On many occassions, in titles such as Excalibur, F4 and X-titles the Phoenix Force was reassigned responsibility for creating marvel creation, the role it was stated to have prior to the Infinity Sagas anyway.

Juntai

GS, I heard someone state a while back that there's infinity gauntlet created in each universe, but I didn't recall reading that in any of the books I read that dealt with it or Thanos, can you confirm or deny this for me and if so, where/when it was stated?

If that's true, it is indeed likely that it each Gauntlet was created specifically for it's own universe.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Juntai
GS, I heard someone state a while back that there's infinity gauntlet created in each universe, but I didn't recall reading that in any of the books I read that dealt with it or Thanos, can you confirm or deny this for me and if so, where/when it was stated?

If that's true, it is indeed likely that it each Gauntlet was created specifically for it's own universe.

I havent read or heard that before either. If that was the case then that contradicts everything we heard about the Infinity Being. The gems were created from his body on the event of his death and he killed himself out of loneliness, because he was the ONLY being alive in the multiverse at one point. That would suggest that they are indeed unique in the multiverse. They do however only have universal level power, thats conclusive.

Juntai

Lord Urizen

[Misinterpretation.}

How? Silver Surfer's story totally contradicted the Infitini Gaunlet saga itself. Is the Silver Surfer issue non canon then? It can't be, its the original Silver Surfer series, and what happened in his versions were totally different from the IG saga events. What's the deal then? If that's not alternate realities, then what is that?

{Theres no reason why the IG shouldnt be able to affect another universe within Marvel, however it couldnt do so whilst simultaneously effecting 616, the Gauntlet as stated only has universal scale power. It can give a wielder virtually total control over a single reality at a time. I think all the confusion has arisen over the claim that the IG can only affect one universe. You interpreted that as meaning it could only function in 616, whereas what could have been meant (and what is true) is that it has universal power so it cant provide mastery over more than one reality at a time}

Which is sorta almost kinda (lol) where I was trying to go. I beleive that Thanos can destroy more than one universe, since he with a simple command destroyed half the Universe and still had infinite power at his disposal, there had to have been the possibility that he can destroy more universes. Okay, I'll budge....he probably can't destroy another universe If he's located in the 616 Universe.

Ne ways while on this topic is universal or multiversal jurisdiction, someone stated that with a fraction of the ALE's true power, a universe can be destroyed. That doesn't convince me of its dominance over IG.

Thanos wiped out half the Universe with a simple command. There's no "fraction" of power being used persay. The IG is infinite in power and ability, it's not like he destroyed half the universe and then got tired or any weaker. He destroyed half the universe, and was the SAME Thanos with the SAMe level of power he acquired....infinite.

As for location having anything to do with his power of one or more universes, the Space Gem is an Infitini Gem as well. Distance is no longer a factor for Thanos with that gem, and saying that his power is limitted to one universe is a matter of space. Space Gem gives its wielder dominion over space, so it doesn't make sense that its limitted to ONE Universe for two reasons:

1) It's an Infitini Gem- there should be no limit
2) It's power over space, two universes occupy space, there should be no obstacle here

Hence, in my opinion, more retcon BS

Speaking of retcon, Kirby left the ALE to intepretation did he not? The ALE's powers arent even made clear, therefore its up to the writers to retcon, add and subtract all they want.

DC is kinda cheesy about ubering up thier characters and weapons.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

You need to re-read my post. In your previous one you were arguing as if i had said the IG couldnt be used in any universe but 616. I never, hence the reason i said misinterpretation. What youre going on about here i really dont know. Nothing to do with what i said.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Which is sorta almost kinda (lol) where I was trying to go. I beleive that Thanos can destroy more than one universe, since he with a simple command destroyed half the Universe and still had infinite power at his disposal, there had to have been the possibility that he can destroy more universes. Okay, I'll budge....he probably can't destroy another universe If he's located in the 616 Universe.

Ne ways while on this topic is universal or multiversal jurisdiction, someone stated that with a fraction of the ALE's true power, a universe can be destroyed. That doesn't convince me of its dominance over IG.

Thanos wiped out half the Universe with a simple command. There's no "fraction" of power being used persay. The IG is infinite in power and ability, it's not like he destroyed half the universe and then got tired or any weaker. He destroyed half the universe, and was the SAME Thanos with the SAMe level of power he acquired....infinite.

Youre missing the point. The IG as stated on panel gives universal level power. With that in mind for all practical purposes within a universe he is going to have virtually unlimited power as he can employ all resources within said universe, however put him up against someone who wields power on a multiversal level and he will come up short. There are levels of infinity. You'd say that the amount of odd numbers are infinite as they can go on and on forever. You'd also say the same about even numbers as you can keep on counting forever. However whole numbers incorporate both even and odd numbers and therefore are on a level of infinity beyond either of the two sub sets. Do you understand?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
As for location having anything to do with his power of one or more universes, the Space Gem is an Infitini Gem as well. Distance is no longer a factor for Thanos with that gem, and saying that his power is limitted to one universe is a matter of space. Space Gem gives its wielder dominion over space, so it doesn't make sense that its limitted to ONE Universe for two reasons:

1) It's an Infitini Gem- there should be no limit
2) It's power over space, two universes occupy space, there should be no obstacle here

Hence, in my opinion, more retcon BS

1) There are levels of infinity, dont get caught up on the name.

2) Its power over space at a universal level. Not all space in existence.

As per current continuity, the gems derive power from the Big Bang, they have virtually unlimited power at a universal level. They can therefore give a wielder almost total control of one universe.

Doctor SKank

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Youre missing the point. The IG as stated on panel gives universal level power. With that in mind for all practical purposes within a universe he is going to have virtually unlimited power as he can employ all resources within said universe, however put him up against someone who wields power on a multiversal level and he will come up short. There are levels of infinity. You'd say that the amount of odd numbers are infinite as they can go on and on forever. You'd also say the same about even numbers as you can keep on counting forever. However whole numbers incorporate both even and odd numbers and therefore are on a level of infinity beyond either of the two sub sets. Do you understand?

Isn't Eternity potrayed as Multiversal, and it gave him power over him. smile

Lord Urizen

{You need to re-read my post. In your previous one you were arguing as if i had said the IG couldnt be used in any universe but 616. I never, hence the reason i said misinterpretation. What youre going on about here i really dont know. Nothing to do with what i said}

Then I must have not written it correctly, cuz that's not what I was trying to say. And it wasn't about what you said, it was just about the fact that IG is universal power, someone said that IG can only work in one universe...that why i asked all that.

{Youre missing the point. The IG as stated on panel gives universal level power. With that in mind for all practical purposes within a universe he is going to have virtually unlimited power as he can employ all resources within said universe, however put him up against someone who wields power on a multiversal level and he will come up short. There are levels of infinity. You'd say that the amount of odd numbers are infinite as they can go on and on forever. You'd also say the same about even numbers as you can keep on counting forever. However whole numbers incorporate both even and odd numbers and therefore are on a level of infinity beyond either of the two sub sets. Do you understand?}

Yes I do understand, I learned that a while back. Interesting stuff. Whatever the deal, I feel that this is total retcon. Be patient with me here, I'm trying to organize my thoughts into a proper argument.

The Reality Gem was specified in Thanos Quest "Heaven or Hell. Mine to Choose" as well as the Soul Gem being able to affect and control the souls of the dead." ----you can't blame me for having the impression that the IG's reach might have even been able to mess around with Heaven and Hell itself.

Not to mention that the IG was the only being that existed in any and all realities.

Either the writers didn't know which way to go with this, or its retconned to that other things Marvel comes up with can be more impressive than the Infitini Gems.

I do like the Pheonix idea however !

But to have IG going from being the remains of a Supreme Being to being powered by the Big Bang, is total retcon. Duh I have to just suck it up and go by what the facts are today, but what a rip off. I beleive at the time, IG was meant to be the ultamate in power, and now they depowered it so much that its influence no longer stands the same.

{1) There are levels of infinity, dont get caught up on the name.

2) Its power over space at a universal level. Not all space in existence.

As per current continuity, the gems derive power from the Big Bang, they have virtually unlimited power at a universal level. They can therefore give a wielder almost total control of one universe.}

I know there are levels of Infiniti , but Infiniti has no limits. If the Space Gem is an gem of infinite power, then its range goes....infinitely. It's a contradiction then. A Universe is not infinite though, space is.

Okay let me not go off topic....The point is Infitini Gems have been retconned from belonging to the essense of a Supreme Being to being a part of the Big Bang.

IF ALE is multiversal than yeah, it has more jurisdiction in terms of universes and space, but what can you DO with it. Is it just something that ends all life? Or is is a reality altering thing, no one answered my question about that.

If all it does is End Life, the IG can protect its wielder from that. If Thanos has IG and Darksied tries to wipe out all life in his universe, since Thanos would be supreme being of that universe's physics and cosmic structures, Thanos can deny that attack.

Doctor SKank

'1) There are levels of infinity, dont get caught up on the name.'

W.T.F. confused

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
Isn't Eternity potrayed as Multiversal, and it gave him power over him. smile

Nope. Hes very much universal as stated and detailed in his latest bio. wink

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
'1) There are levels of infinity, dont get caught up on the name.'

W.T.F. confused

Allow me to explain myself. There are differing levels of infinity do not get caught by the definition which would lead you to believe that anything deemed infinite is unsurpassable.

Doctor SKank

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Allow me to explain myself. There are differing levesl of infinity do not get caught by the definition which would lead you to believe that anything deemed infinite is unsurpassable.

'Allow me to explain. There are diffrent types of holes, do not get caught up in the definition of a hole, which would leave you to beleive that any dent or creivice in a piece of material is a hole. smile

Confused ? smile

Doctor SKank

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Hes very much universal as stated and detailed in his latest bio. wink

Whose incharge of the Squadron Supreme universe ? smile

Lord Urizen

{"'Allow me to explain. There are diffrent types of holes, do not get caught up in the definition of a hole, which would leave you to beleive that any dent or creivice in a piece of material is a hole.

Confused ? }

AHAHAHHAHAHHAAAAAAAA laughing

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
'Allow me to explain. There are diffrent types of holes, do not get caught up in the definition of a hole, which would leave you to beleive that any dent or creivice in a piece of material is a hole. smile

Confused ? smile

U know what i mean.

Same old b*stard

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
Whose incharge of the Squadron Supreme universe ? smile

Straczynski? Quesada? confused

R.O.T. Yahman

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
wink

U know what i mean.

Same old b*stard

Whose Old ? smile

R.O.T. Yahman

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Straczynski? Quesada? confused

Abstaract wise ? Does hit have its own grouping of Abstracts ? If tthis is the case Thanos should have maybe gone to another universe to see if he would have better luck with thier version of death. smile

Doctor SKank

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Whose Old ? smile

Apparently, I am ? confused

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Abstaract wise ? Does hit have its own grouping of Abstracts ? If tthis is the case Thanos should have maybe gone to another universe to see if he would have better luck with thier version of death. smile

So youre skank as well. I forgot about the level thing the other day.

Doctor SKank

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So youre skank as well. I forgot about the level thing the other day.

Or maybe we PM a lot ???????? shifty

R.O.T. Yahman

Originally posted by Doctor SKank
Or maybe we PM a lot ???????? shifty

Don't give the game away, my friend. smile

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Don't give the game away, my friend. smile

Youre both the same. I remember that Skank account from that Phoenix thread a few months back. Your posts give it away. wink

R.O.T. Yahman

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre both the same. I remember that Skank account from that Phoenix thread a few months back. Your posts give it away. wink

Ahhh yes ..... although it isn't impossible to sawp accounts, all you need are e-mail adresses and an internet cafe. smile

leonidas

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I havent read or heard that before either. If that was the case then that contradicts everything we heard about the Infinity Being. The gems were created from his body on the event of his death and he killed himself out of loneliness, because he was the ONLY being alive in the multiverse at one point. That would suggest that they are indeed unique in the multiverse. They do however only have universal level power, thats conclusive.

that's new to me as well.

as for eternity being a multiversal being -- he was indeed portrayed that way in a defenders mini. course, dormammu also beat him down, so . . . i'm not sure how much stock to put in that series.

and lordU:

<<IF ALE is multiversal than yeah, it has more jurisdiction in terms of universes and space, but what can you DO with it. Is it just something that ends all life? Or is is a reality altering thing, no one answered my question about that.>>

i already did answer this. the ale has been presented in a variety of ways. i also mentioned that it is open to the interpretations of the writer and listed a few of its past in-book incarnations. again, dc's cosmology is different from marvel's. i'm not even sure it's technically correct to claim dc HAS a multiverse. afterall, that WAS the whole point of the first crisis . . .

Lord Urizen

{i already did answer this. the ale has been presented in a variety of ways. i also mentioned that it is open to the interpretations of the writer and listed a few of its past in-book incarnations. again, dc's cosmology is different from marvel's. i'm not even sure it's technically correct to claim dc HAS a multiverse. afterall, that WAS the whole point of the first crisis . . .}

Sorry, I never read up on that. What thread was that on? This one ? I'll try and check it out.

So DC may not have a multiverse anyway ?

All I'm going on ALE is by what I hear, and so far everyone says its mostly up for interpretation.

Either way, even if ALE is multiversal, that doesn't automatically mean it can subject one universe down if that universe has its own defense such as Thanos w Infitini Gauntlet.

Even though its been retconned, I am going by the original Infiniti Gauntlet saga and Thanos Quest intepretations, Retcon can be bull sometimes, especially since this ret con is so recent.

The Infiniti Gems belonged to a multiversal being, his essense was the only one that existed within any and all realities. I believe the IG at the time was meant to have power beyond the scope of just one universe.

However, even if I am wrong, Darksied with ALE would still have a difficult time defeating Thanos with IG.

I'm gonna start doing my own research, because this multiversal vs universal thing has so many contradictions of these threads. Some ppl claim that Lucifer and Micheal are multiversal, yet someone else said that that is just information of fanboy sites, and in the comic books themselves i only heard Yahweh explaining that his actions would send the Universe back in time.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{i already did answer this. the ale has been presented in a variety of ways. i also mentioned that it is open to the interpretations of the writer and listed a few of its past in-book incarnations. again, dc's cosmology is different from marvel's. i'm not even sure it's technically correct to claim dc HAS a multiverse. afterall, that WAS the whole point of the first crisis . . .}

Sorry, I never read up on that. What thread was that on? This one ? I'll try and check it out.

So DC may not have a multiverse anyway ?

All I'm going on ALE is by what I hear, and so far everyone says its mostly up for interpretation.

Either way, even if ALE is multiversal, that doesn't automatically mean it can subject one universe down if that universe has its own defense such as Thanos w Infitini Gauntlet.

Even though its been retconned, I am going by the original Infiniti Gauntlet saga and Thanos Quest intepretations, Retcon can be bull sometimes, especially since this ret con is so recent.

The Infiniti Gems belonged to a multiversal being, his essense was the only one that existed within any and all realities. I believe the IG at the time was meant to have power beyond the scope of just one universe.

However, even if I am wrong, Darksied with ALE would still have a difficult time defeating Thanos with IG.

I'm gonna start doing my own research, because this multiversal vs universal thing has so many contradictions of these threads. Some ppl claim that Lucifer and Micheal are multiversal, yet someone else said that that is just information of fanboy sites, and in the comic books themselves i only heard Yahweh explaining that his actions would send the Universe back in time.

1) You cannot decide to ignore current continuity because you favour a previous interpretation. Doesnt work like that. We go by whats canon.

2) The Infinity Being was NOT a multiversal being, he was at one point the only being alive in the multiverse. BIG difference. The fact that he died and his power was retained in the form of the very universal I Gems says it all. Either way thats not current continuity so we no longer need to refer to him. Whether you like that or not is irrelevant. Its just how it is.

Lord Urizen

{1) You cannot decide to ignore current continuity because you favour a previous interpretation. Doesnt work like that. We go by whats canon. }

I'm not ignoring it. Earlier I said regardless of retcon or not, if ALE is multiversal and IG is universal Darksied may have the ultmate upper hand. However, that doesn't mean he has absolute power over one universe is if has it's own defense like IG...

I asked you WHAT DOES THE ALE DO ? you never answered my question

If all it does is Destroy Life on a Multiversal basis, IG can still deflect that since it would make Thanos supreme being of HIS ONE UNIVERSE.
Thanos could deny that action to whichever UNIVERSE he is in charge of.

NOW...if ALE is a reality altering object on a multiversal scale...THEN.....it would be like 10000 IG's and therefore its reality altering abilities would overpower Infitini Gauntlet's.

BRO did you even read my arguments? I SAID I LIKED THE PHEONIX FORCE IDEA...I LOVE PHEONIX and i was more than willing to accept her dominion over Marvel.

However, the IG retcon , in my opinion, is BS....has nothing to do with whether or not i like it. I actually prefer Pheonix is supreme essense, but it is still BS since in IGauntlet and Thanos Quest they had aLREADY set up the supreme foundation.

{2) The Infinity Being was NOT a multiversal being, he was at one point the only being alive in the multiverse. BIG difference. The fact that he died and his power was retained in the form of the very universal I Gems says it all. Either way thats not current continuity so we no longer need to refer to him. Whether you like that or not is irrelevant. Its just how it is.}

If the Infiniti Being was the only being that existed within all the realities in the multiverse, than yes he was a multiversal being. He was the only one that existed. It's like when they say Lucifer is the only "Lucifer" that exists in DC/Vertigos Multiverse, he's not equal to the combined strength of every single universe, but he can easily exist with his full power and affect numerous universes (according to Lucifer fans)

At the time, I don't think Marvel had a "multiverse". I beleive when IG came out they centered all thier events in one universe, the way Image does.

I beleive, not like or dislike, I beleive that at the time Infiniti Gems were meant to be the ultamate in power, but obviously today, since there are new writers and we need to come up with mroe and more ubbber powerful things like fkn DBZ does, they DE POWERED and RET CONNED it.......

I even said that I have to go by that, so you are only repeating what I myself said before.

PLZ read my arguments before you contradict me.

Thanks

leonidas

<<At the time, I don't think Marvel had a "multiverse". I beleive when IG came out they centered all thier events in one universe, the way Image does.>>

that much at least is not correct. the 'new' universe had already existed and interacted with 616 (did the ig show that it was UNABLE to affect the new universe at some point?). marvel had also (i think) absorbed the malibu universe (which ultimately led to the revelation of a SEVENTH infinity gem -- which i also think was retconned . . .)

on top of that, the ig was shown to be ineffective against malestrom when he donned the 'anomaly' guise and became an agent for oblivion. thanos (with the ig) couldn't even really perceive him, and it was clear that thanos was going to die along with everyone else had not quasar become infinity's champion. obviously, it's power was short of lt's -- or at least lt was able to exert power over it to prevent it from working.

the ig has been shown to have limits -- even dr strange was able to battle the gems when they were used singly against him.

all that's not to say that thanos can't win this still. it would likely depend on what form the ale took in the battle.

you're raising some good points though, lu. way to keep gs on his toes!

wink

Lord Urizen

{{<<At the time, I don't think Marvel had a "multiverse". I beleive when IG came out they centered all thier events in one universe, the way Image does.>>

that much at least is not correct. the 'new' universe had already existed and interacted with 616 (did the ig show that it was UNABLE to affect the new universe at some point?). marvel had also (i think) absorbed the malibu universe (which ultimately led to the revelation of a SEVENTH infinity gem -- which i also think was retconned . . .)}}}}

Okay I stand corrected

{{on top of that, the ig was shown to be ineffective against malestrom when he donned the 'anomaly' guise and became an agent for oblivion. thanos (with the ig) couldn't even really perceive him, and it was clear that thanos was going to die along with everyone else had not quasar become infinity's champion. obviously, it's power was short of lt's -- or at least lt was able to exert power over it to prevent it from working.}}}

Yeah.....I heard about Malestrom having the Anomaly which made him equivalent to Thanos with Ig, but this was like RIGHT BEFORE the Infiniti Gauntlet Saga. How did that go ? I never saw that battle myself, but someone said that Thanos actually beat him. However, if he would have lost, Malestrom would have been the supreme being.

{{the ig has been shown to have limits -- even dr strange was able to battle the gems when they were used singly against him.}}

When and against who? I don't beleive it's the GEMS that have the limits, I beleive it is the person who is using them. Nebula with the IG was stopped easily by Adam Warlock for two reasons: 1) He was already linked with the Soul Gem, and 2) She wasn't anywhere as mature or cunning as Thanos was to handle such a shock of immediate power.

{{all that's not to say that thanos can't win this still. it would likely depend on what form the ale took in the battle.}}}

True...but what does the ALE do ? Just because its multiversal doesnt mean its absolute victory over IG. It depends what it does. If it doesn't allow for reality bending, then IG still has it. Like i said many times before, Thanos with IG can defend his universe and himself against a multiversal threat, if he wills it to be so in his universe.

He's not just the boss of all territory within the Universe with IG, he is also incharge of its physics and concepts (like death, reality etc.)

Even if Darksied used ALE to try and completely destroy Thanos and his universe, Thanos can wish it not to occur, and it won't. Atleast not in that universe, since everyone is saying its power is universal.

{{{you're raising some good points though, lu. way to keep gs on his toes!}}}}

Thanks lol. i'm not against GS, I do love the Pheonix force and accepted the retcon of IG, but GS doesn't seem to bother reading any of my posts. He just responds, he's never even answered some of my questions.

Big Sexy

Thats a pretty good way of thinking of it and it makes sense. May the glove can't affect on a multiversal scale but that may mean the powers are new absolute in that one universe.

Lord Urizen

{{Thats a pretty good way of thinking of it and it makes sense. May the glove can't affect on a multiversal scale but that may mean the powers are new absolute in that one universe.}}

Thanks bro.

I figured that even if IG is just universal, it still grants it wielder absolute authority over that one universe, unless that was retconned also lol.

I should do more research on ALE though, then my opinion will be more solid.

Big Sexy

One thing I always hated was the way the Gauntlet was absolute. Now I am not sure anymore because the HOTU makes it very confusing. Some how one end of \ Infinity is less than another

Lord Urizen

{{One thing I always hated was the way the Gauntlet was absolute. Now I am not sure anymore because the HOTU makes it very confusing. Some how one end of \ Infinity is less than another}}

I sorta liked it. It made the threat absolutely serious, and it gave this "No Hope" kinda deal for the forces of good, which should be done more often. Well that's just my opinion.

As for HOTU....to quote GS one set of Infiniti can be greater than another. The Prime #'s vs All Numbers deal, ask him about that.

Even if IG isn't truly infinite in terms of spacial range and universal/multiversal jurisdiction, it is infinite in terms of possibility.

I'd say this might be how the Gems range:

Time: Affects all aspects of the Timeline, even Chronos couldn't overpower

Space: Only affects the space that Universe 616 contains

Soul: affects all souls in Universe 616, dead or alive

Reality: Infinite amount of reality warping, no limit, the only limit is your imagination...do you think you can EXPAND the size of you universe or merge it with others? I mean if you could easily wipe OUT your universe with IG, then why can't u expand, replicate, or fuse it with another ?????

Power: Infinite Power, in terms of Energy Manipulation, The energy source probably recreates itself therefore supplying unlimitted force

Mind: Control and influence over all minds in Universe 616

Hey, I could be wrong though.

and Yeah, HOTU makes everything confusing now. I think they just needed to come up with something they thought would be even "cooler " and "better" than IG and Pheonix and Living Tribunal.

Can't they be more creative? How cheesy to just CONTINUE finding something more powerful, and more powerful, and more powerful, and more powerful, in all honestly if the HOTU is multiversal and above the LT and equal to TOAA, then NO ONE should be able to contain it, not even mighty Thanos.

Big Sexy

Damn I hate typo's. Its funny how a period can make a point sound completely different. I meant that I loved the IG saga and how (as you stated) It gave the user unmatched power over all basically. The HOTU just took away what made the IG so great. The IG'sS have a history even before the saga began, aand it ties in to everything. What I hated was that the HOTU seemed to have come out of no where. It was just an ultimate power that no one new about. It did not have the depth or the better story that the IG had.

leonidas

<<As for HOTU....to quote GS one set of Infiniti can be greater than another. The Prime #'s vs All Numbers deal, ask him about that.>>

lol then ask him who he first heard raise that point. wink

and because you seem to have missed this post, here's a little bit more on the ale and its incarnations in the dcu:

Originally posted by leonidas
as far as the ale, like i said it has had many interpretations. starlin saw it as a living creature, capable of casually destroying entire dimensions and with power to destroy the universe. in emperor joker, darkseid says that joker somehow stumbled on the equation which implies the equation may be somehow related to the 5d imps and their ability to control reality. there are others, but what's clear is that it really is open to interpretations of writers. if it granted imp-like control of the universe, as well as the full power of command or mental usurpation, 'seid would certainly be a very real threat to thanos.

about your question regarding darkseid -- in rock of ages, it was alluded that in a future timeline ds DID gain the equation and easily conquered earth and new genesis with it, but not much more was said i don't think.

it's an interesting match up. i've always found the ale fascinating, not least because kirby left it as such a mystery (sort of like dickens' "edwin drood"!) it would be cool if someone did a definitive version of it though. sad

Lord Urizen

{{{Damn I hate typo's. Its funny how a period can make a point sound completely different. I meant that I loved the IG saga and how (as you stated) It gave the user unmatched power over all basically. The HOTU just took away what made the IG so great. The IG'sS have a history even before the saga began, aand it ties in to everything. What I hated was that the HOTU seemed to have come out of no where. It was just an ultimate power that no one new about. It did not have the depth or the better story that the IG had.}}}

No...it really didn't. HOTU seems like a desperate attempt to impress either Thanos fan boys (I being one of them), or to come up with something that fans would take "seriously" or for something to stand out among the millions of alternate titles each main character has.

The Infiniti Gems do have a long, developed, and established history within the Marvel mythos.

That retcon deal is total BS, obviously some new writer thought that he or she could come up with sum deal "better" than IG...some people should know when to leave a classic alone.

The Infiniti Gauntlet was perfect....it should be looked back nostalgically, not as past BS......HOTU saga destroyed the beauty and minimized the solid power that Infinity Gauntlet brought to Marvel.

Well how are they gonna top HOTU ?

ultra super mega Onslaught plus Thanos plus Galactus plus Living Tribunal fused together who absorb Darksied, Spectre, Lucifer, Micheal, Spawn, and all the DBZ characters and its the ultamate ultra super mega hyper mega ominversal threat of DOOM doometyy doom doom doom of DEATH !!!!!!!!!!

Who can stop this ??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?

Why...Superman makes an alliance with Spiderman, and together the two stand for Justice and the American way and SOMEHOWWWW defeat this monstrosity !!!!!!!!!!!!!

With Supreme Beings and more Artifacts of Absolute Power, creativity and originality become so fkn limitted.....

leonidas

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

yep. sad

Lord Urizen

{{{as far as the ale, like i said it has had many interpretations. starlin saw it as a living creature, capable of casually destroying entire dimensions and with power to destroy the universe. in emperor joker, darkseid says that joker somehow stumbled on the equation which implies the equation may be somehow related to the 5d imps and their ability to control reality. there are others, but what's clear is that it really is open to interpretations of writers. if it granted imp-like control of the universe, as well as the full power of command or mental usurpation, 'seid would certainly be a very real threat to thanos.

about your question regarding darkseid -- in rock of ages, it was alluded that in a future timeline ds DID gain the equation and easily conquered earth and new genesis with it, but not much more was said i don't think.

it's an interesting match up. i've always found the ale fascinating, not least because kirby left it as such a mystery (sort of like dickens' "edwin drood"!) it would be cool if someone did a definitive version of it though.}}}

Thanks Leo

Okay so this is my prediction:

If ALE only possesses the power to destroy multiple Universes, than theres no guarantee it can destoy a Universe defended by Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet. Like i said before, Thanos would control the reality and physics and all concepts of his chosen Universe and DISallow the ALE to affect that one universe. Thanos would hold strong against Darkseid, whose to say if they were both in the same reality that Thanos couldn't simply read Darkseid' mind and usurp the knowledge and the equation solution itself from Darksied ?

But

If the ALE is an actual Reality Warping Tool on a multiversal scale, than obviously it would be like 100000000 Infinity Gauntlets versus ONE Infinity Gauntlet (Depending how many universes a multiverse has) then Darksied would totally win this.

However this is my problem with that:

Several arguments have stated that DC doesn't actually have an official multiverse like Marvel does, Crisis broke one universe into many or something of that sort. (correct me if mistaken)

And it's called The Anti Life Equation.....It seems to be a Vast Death mechanism, not a reality altering tool from its name. Just because it allows its possessor to destroy universe at WILL...does not mean it can change the laws and concepts of any reality.

Big Sexy

an example of of this can be seen in too other situations to a lesser extent:

1. The demon Mephisto as well as the asgardians have both shown that they are empowered by their realm. The Mephisto has lost to the surfer on earth but could not be destroyed in his realm.
2. Scarlet which has been stated to not only affect this universe but it was able to have an affect on others because of the house of M. Having powers that affect a multiverse does not necessarily equal dominion over one who has universal power.

Mider

i dont think it means that the IG can servive the ALE forever.

Lord Urizen

Big Sexy...UR BIG...and UR SEXY

Thanks for backing me up there ! wink

leonidas

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

crisis took the complex dc MULTIVERSE and made it into a more coherent UNIVERSE. not sure how vertigo fits in current continuity in dc. there has been overlap at times, but i'm not sure if those times are canon or have been retconned. the 5th dimension may also be said to be outside of dcu's version of 616, but again, i'm not sure if the alternate dimensions in dc are actually considered PART of the entire dcu.

one thing the ale has never been is a death machine. the anti-life name refers to the fact that it dominates all will -- a being without a will of its own is like a being who is dead! it has also been portrayed in orion as the instrument of ultimate/supreme order as everything obeys it.

Big Sexy

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Big Sexy...UR BIG...and UR SEXY

Thanks for backing me up there ! wink

No problem

Big Sexy

Originally posted by leonidas
crisis took the complex dc MULTIVERSE and made it into a more coherent UNIVERSE. not sure how vertigo fits in current continuity in dc. there has been overlap at times, but i'm not sure if those times are canon or have been retconned. the 5th dimension may also be said to be outside of dcu's version of 616, but again, i'm not sure if the alternate dimensions in dc are actually considered PART of the entire dcu.

one thing the ale has never been is a death machine. the anti-life name refers to the fact that it dominates all will -- a being without a will of its own is like a being who is dead! it has also been portrayed in orion as the instrument of ultimate/supreme order as everything obeys it.
How does dominating will affect a power that dominates reality?

Big Sexy

How does will affect a power that could change the very definition of will.

Lord Urizen

{i dont think it means that the IG can servive the ALE forever.}

Hmmm..you may be right Mider. But.....If the Infinity Gauntlet is INFINITE in power, which I beleive it is, then yeah it could surive the ALE forever. Remember TIME and POWER are not an obstacle with IG...

Time: Control of Marvel's Timeline, I'm pretty sure this GEM could put out for as long as the Wielder deems necessary. Whose to say Time cannot freeze or be altered to fit Thanos' needs in this scenario.

Power: Infinite Power, unlimitted energy source, I don't thnk this can be challenged as anything other than fact. I imagine that the Power Gem keeps re creating new energy or has a truly infinite source to feed from. If this is the case, then the Power Gem can supply Thanos with power for the rest of eternity, as long as Thanos himself doesn't tire out of constantly deflecting the ALE.

{crisis took the complex dc MULTIVERSE and made it into a more coherent UNIVERSE. not sure how vertigo fits in current continuity in dc. there has been overlap at times, but i'm not sure if those times are canon or have been retconned. the 5th dimension may also be said to be outside of dcu's version of 616, but again, i'm not sure if the alternate dimensions in dc are actually considered PART of the entire dcu.}}}}}}

Thanks for clearing that up. I never got what Crisis was actually about LOL

{{{one thing the ale has never been is a death machine. the anti-life name refers to the fact that it dominates all will -- a being without a will of its own is like a being who is dead! it has also been portrayed in orion as the instrument of ultimate/supreme order as everything obeys it.}}}

Okay....no death machine theory then...I take that back.

Hmm...well this would be sorta like IF the MIND GEM was on a multiversal scale. The Mind Gem, ANd the Soul Gem, allows you to VIOLATE the identity of ANY and ALL individuals, take thier free will away and supply your own desires into them (as Thanos stated in Quest)

Too Bad Thanos didn't actually USE all of this in IG Saga.....he could have done soo much more than he DID according to Thanos Quest.

To tell u the truth, Thanos Quest impressed me more than IG itself. The statements of what you COULD do with these Gems were more impressive than what Thanos actually DID with them in IG.

Anyways, on topic.....okay so lets say Darkseid is putting numerous realities under his control with ALE, since the ALE is a tool of SUPREME ORDER...then he stumbles upon the Universe with Thanos and his IG

.....Thanos is already the Supreme Being of this one universe. His jurisdiction cannot be overturned since he controls the reality, physics, concepts, and laws of this universe. I beleive...that any order Darkseid would give with ALE to this one universe would be defied by Thanos w IG.

Let's just say for hell's sake that Thanos decided to DESTROY the entire universe he was in with IG, could Darkseid with ALE revive the universe? How can he command it if it no longer existed ? Could the ALE over turn Thanos' IG command?

Lord Urizen

{How does will affect a power that could change the very definition of will.}

OMG...i didnt even consider that.....what about THAT ????

Mider

if the ALE is all that and a bag of chips it might eventually bypass the power of the IG though

Lord Urizen

{if the ALE is all that and a bag of chips it might eventually bypass the power of the IG though}

But how ? If IG has Infinite endurance in both Time and Power, how could ALE surpass it in time?

I understand that one Infinity could be greater or more complete than another Infinity, but NEITHER Infinity comes to an end.

There would be no "which power dies out first" since they would both last forever.

Mider

yeah but its still greater, the IG isnt the absolute power in the multiverse supposidly the HOTU is greater and so it would eventually fall to a greater power if the IG went against the classic beyonder it would lose as well

Lord Urizen

{{yeah but its still greater, the IG isnt the absolute power in the multiverse supposidly the HOTU is greater and so it would eventually fall to a greater power if the IG went against the classic beyonder it would lose as well}}}

No doubt that IG would lose to Classic Beyonder, since Classic Beyonder is above even LT and is supposed to have the same power as the comic book writers themselves. No authority anywhere except the writers can control Classic Beyonder.

I don't know anything much about the HOTU, except that I think it's a cheesy idea, so I can't argue there.

And while on topic of ALE vs IG, I didn't say IG was absolute in power to the multiverse, I said it is INFINITE and therefore its supply would not end.

It depends what Greater Power you are talking about. ALE forces the possessor's will onto multiple universes, while IG is an Infinitely Versatile Reality Warping Tool.

I've already stated that neither command power source would END since that struggle could go on FOREVER, and you haven't proven otherwise. Both sources are Infinite, ALE just happens to have more SPACE JURISDICTION, while IG works one universe at a time.

Whatever command ALE forces upon one universe, Thanos with IG can revert, change, or deny it if he is in that universe.

Lord Urizen

AS MANY TIMES AS HE PLEASES because his power would go on FOREVER....his WILL, however, may have its own limits.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

I'm not ignoring it. Earlier I said regardless of retcon or not, if ALE is multiversal and IG is universal Darksied may have the ultmate upper hand. However, that doesn't mean he has absolute power over one universe is if has it's own defense like IG...

Youre still talking in terms of the early 90's. Greater powers have been introduced or at least clarified in Marvel meaning that the IG doesnt give total control over a universe. Talking in terms of current continuity it is merely a conduit for the power of the Big Bang and as such we know both Phoenix nad HOTU offer far greater control.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{I asked you WHAT DOES THE ALE DO ? you never answered my question

If you were to re-read my posts you would see i have yet to present an argument for the A.L.E, right now im just dismissing your misconceptions pertaining to the IG. You have been told time and time again what the ALE can do, all you have to is google the thing, youre in a debate, take some initiative. wink

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
BRO did you even read my arguments? I SAID I LIKED THE PHEONIX FORCE IDEA...I LOVE PHEONIX and i was more than willing to accept her dominion over Marvel.

Yeah, but what does that have to do with this argument? confused

Im not trying to further Phoenuxes position because thats unnecessary, ive referred to the character a few times to clue you up in curent continuity. Thats all. smile

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
However, the IG retcon , in my opinion, is BS....has nothing to do with whether or not i like it. I actually prefer Pheonix is supreme essense, but it is still BS since in IGauntlet and Thanos Quest they had aLREADY set up the supreme foundation.

It isnt BS cos in the same way Phoenix was stated to be the Big Bang and the life force of creation many a time, long before Thanos Quest. Retcons happen all the time in comics, deal with it. If you actually like Phoenix then stop whining in every post that you think its BS cos its changed whats come before. Thanos Quest did exactly the same thing.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If the Infiniti Being was the only being that existed within all the realities in the multiverse, than yes he was a multiversal being. He was the only one that existed. It's like when they say Lucifer is the only "Lucifer" that exists in DC/Vertigos Multiverse, he's not equal to the combined strength of every single universe, but he can easily exist with his full power and affect numerous universes (according to Lucifer fans)

And yet as conclusively shown his power was strictly universal, therefore the Infinity Being was not multiversal in a manner that will affect this debate. LT is multiversal not only because he is unique in the multiverse, but because he is attuned to all events in creation and he has proven jurisdiction against virtually all across the multiverse. The Infinity Being was just the first being to come alive in a universe. Not the same at all. Either way lets stop going on about the I Being he;s been retconned he's currently a non factor and therefore bringing him up has no bearing on this debate.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
At the time, I don't think Marvel had a "multiverse". I beleive when IG came out they centered all thier events in one universe, the way Image does.

Not very observant are you? wink

Have you forgotten about the What Ifs, The New Universe, The Beyond Realm? Marvel had and referred to a multiverse back in the 80's for definite.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I beleive, not like or dislike, I beleive that at the time Infiniti Gems were meant to be the ultamate in power, but obviously today, since there are new writers and we need to come up with mroe and more ubbber powerful things like fkn DBZ does, they DE POWERED and RET CONNED it.......

I even said that I have to go by that, so you are only repeating what I myself said before.

PLZ read my arguments before you contradict me.

Thanks

Dont get smart with me son. If you stopped repeating the same points over and over and stopped giving the same sob story about the former glory of the IG, whilst at the same time trying toargue in terms of former continuity then i wouldnt consistently relay to you your misconceptions.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

And while on topic of ALE vs IG, I didn't say IG was absolute in power to the multiverse, I said it is INFINITE and therefore its supply would not end.

It depends what Greater Power you are talking about. ALE forces the possessor's will onto multiple universes, while IG is an Infinitely Versatile Reality Warping Tool.

I've already stated that neither command power source would END since that struggle could go on FOREVER, and you haven't proven otherwise. Both sources are Infinite, ALE just happens to have more SPACE JURISDICTION, while IG works one universe at a time.

Whatever command ALE forces upon one universe, Thanos with IG can revert, change, or deny it if he is in that universe.

Have you completely bypassed all the references to the IGs current status? You're still completely missing the point.

As i tried to explain to you before and as you told me you supposedly understood, there are levels of infinity. The IG's power is neither as great in scale as a multiversal source or in supply. Why? Because its power stems from a single universe. Marvels universes are closed systems, they are FINITE. At the moment of creation, at the point of the Big Bang all energy that will ever exist IS. Dont you remember the whole Phoenix consuming the life energy of future generations thing in Excalibur? Here are some scans of Galactus and Phoenix from Excalibur 61:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/13104581516.jpg&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/13104591338.jpg&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/12206095335.jpg&s=x402

So against a multiversal foe the IG would simply be outclassed. The energy contained within a universe is finite. Why do you think i was saying earlier dont get caught up on the definition of the word infinity. Words like infinite, limitless, invulnerable are thrown around all the time in comics, you would be naive to take them literally in the first place and incredibly foolish to do so given the wealth of on panel evidence to the contrary.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{if the ALE is all that and a bag of chips it might eventually bypass the power of the IG though}

But how ? If IG has Infinite endurance in both Time and Power, how could ALE surpass it in time?

I understand that one Infinity could be greater or more complete than another Infinity, but NEITHER Infinity comes to an end.

There would be no "which power dies out first" since they would both last forever.

The IG is a conduit for VIRTUALLy infinite power. Remember that.

Mider

the ALE is just a better conduit

leonidas

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont get smart with me son. If you stopped repeating the same points over and over and stopped giving the same sob story about the former glory of the IG, whilst at the same time trying toargue in terms of former continuity then i wouldnt consistently relay to you your misconceptions.

making friends and influencing people gs style. wink

Lord Urizen

{{{{{{If you were to re-read my posts you would see i have yet to present an argument for the A.L.E, right now im just dismissing your misconceptions pertaining to the IG. You have been told time and time again what the ALE can do, all you have to is google the thing, youre in a debate, take some initiative. }}}}}

Bro, I already found out what the ALE does from somewhere else, thanks already.

{{{{It isnt BS cos in the same way Phoenix was stated to be the Big Bang and the life force of creation many a time, long before Thanos Quest. Retcons happen all the time in comics, deal with it. If you actually like Phoenix then stop whining in every post that you think its BS cos its changed whats come before. Thanos Quest did exactly the same thing.}}}}}

First of all I'm not whining about IG or Pheonix retcons. I think retcons in general are BS, Crossgen never did such a thing, but that's besides the point. I do like Pheonix and its idea, but just because I like it doesn't make the inconsistancy cool. I just think retcons are BS, regardless of whether or not they go into my favor.

{{{Have you completely bypassed all the references to the IGs current status? You're still completely missing the point. }}}

No I have not. I've been aware of IG's current status. I just think it's BS, and I've been going back and forth referring to both current IG and classic IG.

Obviously in CURRENT IG status, the ALE would beat it since "current" IG is not even truly infinite.

However, the Gems were once MEANT to be Infinite, and if the gems had retained thier original status, they my points for its power against ALE would be totally valid.

OBVIOUSLY today's IG is no match for today's ALE, so why is there even a match up then? Anyways who started this forum? I'd ask him/her which IG they were referring to. Back then was when the IG actually took place, today the IG's aren't even used, so whats the point of referring to today's versions of them ? Especially if Pheonix is stronger.

{{{As i tried to explain to you before and as you told me you supposedly understood, there are levels of infinity. The IG's power is neither as great in scale as a multiversal source or in supply. Why? Because its power stems from a single universe. Marvels universes are closed systems, they are FINITE. At the moment of creation, at the point of the Big Bang all energy that will ever exist IS. Dont you remember the whole Phoenix consuming the life energy of future generations thing in Excalibur? Here are some scans of Galactus and Phoenix from Excalibur 61:}}}}

EXACTLY my point about the Retcon of IG now. According to the NEW ideas of IG, the Infinity Gems aren't even infinite. They shouldn't be called the Infinity Gems ne more, if this is the case now, they should be called "the USED-TO be Infinity Gems"....i personally think its a rip off that the gems go from belonging to a Supreme Being to just being part of the Big Bang, below Pheonix in Heirarchy. I don't care if you want me to accept it, i said I already did, but I'm just telling you why I am not referring to current IG....

that's all

{{{{Dont get smart with me son. If you stopped repeating the same points over and over and stopped giving the same sob story about the former glory of the IG, whilst at the same time trying toargue in terms of former continuity then i wouldnt consistently relay to you your misconceptions.}}}}

First of all, I'm not responding to that first sentence, it's unnecessary and ineffective. I can say whatever the hell I want as long as it doesn
t directly offend anyone here.

Same points over and over...because I'm arguing with different people here bro.....who coincidently make similiar arguments to you. Don't even talk about repeating myself, same goes for you here.

My misconceptions? Because I choose not to refer to current IG ? I can refer to whichever IG I choose....the classic version of IG actually GIVES me validity to ANY of my point...current IG is no match for current ALE...there should be no debate there.

Ask everyone else which IG they were referring to.

It's like MIDER and many others referring to Classic Beyonder. Obviously he was retconned, today's version of himself is a muchhh weaker one than back then, but almost everyone here refers to him when trying to make a point.

I can't do the same with IG ? Refer to its original ideas instead of the BS that the NEW writers came up with ?

Personally, and this may be off topic, I like old Marvel better than today. I lost my interest in most current Marvel stories, because it seems to me they ran outta creativity for the most part. I'm not stating this section as fact, just opinion so dont jump my throat here GS

Big Sexy

Originally posted by Mider
the ALE is just a better conduit
What brought on that conclusion?

Mider

it being multiversal the IG isnt multiversal

Lord Urizen

Just understand that from now forward, any arguments i made about the IG are referring to classic Infinity Gems mythology, not the current ret con, because CURRENT ret con IG is obviously muchh weaker than ALE, and MUCH WEAKER than its original intended power.

Big Sexy

Multiversal means nothing. Scarlet which had affects across more than her universe, doesn't mean she can destroy the gauntlet. Your basing your opinion on , "Darseid is the best so he wins" and thats a terrible arguement. As far as the white crown goes, it personifies all that is and all that was. I suppose the IG would not affect the white crown because it was part of the creation of the IG. According to curent continuem, the phoenix is responsible for the creation of the multiverse and she shall also be its destruction. Mider, you can't compare the ALE to the Phoenix, the ALE is nothing to the phoenix. It controls will, that's all. I doubt the ALE could stop the spectre. It is not the end all to be alls that you want it to be.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Just understand that from now forward, any arguments i made about the IG are referring to classic Infinity Gems mythology, not the current ret con, because CURRENT ret con IG is obviously muchh weaker than ALE, and MUCH WEAKER than its original intended power.

You are not at liberty to do so as this is not your thread. If you think that current IG loses then say that and move on. As per forum rules unless otherwise stated by the threadmaker all featured characters and objects are the their current canon incarnations. Its irrelevant if you dont like that.

Lord Urizen

WAY TO GO BIG SEXY !

Multiversal vs Universal is the Card you guys pulling, yeah its safe argument but not the ENDER of it.

IT DEPENDS WHAT BOTH DO...... Controlling the will and order on a multiversal scale is very impressive, but IG (im referring to classic version as said) will still have dominance over that one Universe's entire structure since its a reality controlling tool...ALE won't affect a Universe that the original IG is in charge of....is all i have to say about that.

And no...ALE cannot compare to White Pheonix of the Crown since that is the very essense of Marvel's multiverse, theres no fkn comparison....excuse me, but ALE having ORDER forcing power on a multiversal scale doesn't compare to White Pheonix of the Crown being the driving force is its entire multiverse.

Ne ways Classic Beyonder still beats them all...i dont like him, but its true

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
(im referring to classic version as said

Not your thread. Youre not at liberty to do so. You've already stated that you think the IG would lose so why carry on?

Big Sexy

Actually there can really be no arguement. Until it is shown what the ALE can do interms of power. But if the ALE only affects Will power, its not stronger than the IG.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Big Sexy
Actually there can really be no arguement. Until it is shown what the ALE can do interms of power. But if the ALE only affects Will power, its not stronger than the IG.

If it is indeed a multiversal power source then it is indeed more powerful than the IG. The IG just has more variety. Either way you've misunderstood the point to my participation. Im not taking sides in this debate. I was just merely highlighting the misconceptions presented by L.U as fact, thats all. I dont know enough about the ALE to make a decision on the outcome and as such i havent really bothered.

Lord Urizen

{{{{You are not at liberty to do so as this is not your thread. If you think that current IG loses then say that and move on. As per forum rules unless otherwise stated by the threadmaker all featured characters and objects are the their current canon incarnations. Its irrelevant if you dont like that.}}}}

Talis hasn't stated the limits. He/She hasn't stated which version of the IG he's talking about. People bring up Classic Beyonder and Pre Crisis Darksied and PC Superman all the time, so I have every right to bring up the original IG saga and the gems themselves.

LIKE I ALREADY SAID..this is not about what i like or dont like. this is about what I think.

I already said if its current IG ALe wins...if its classic IG Ale doesn't. I have every right to bring up classic IG since:

1) by Facts current IG loses, what other point to this debate would there be

2) For the reasons concerning classic beyonder etc.

I don't care if you say I don't have the Liberty to do so, people voice their opinions hear all the time, no matter how rediculous some of them may be, I have the right to do the same.

{{{Not your thread. Youre not at liberty to do so. You've already stated that you think the IG would lose so why carry on?}}}}

I stated Current IG would lose. Not REAL IG. I admit I personally see the Infinity Gauntlet saga as the real scenario of IG since that's the Saga its all based on. I have every right to do so, continue to tell me all you want that I cannot refer to this, I still will.

Why carry on?

As long as someone beleives that ALE can beat IG in any scenario, I feel obliged to defend my opinion.

Any other questions ?

Lord Urizen

{{{If it is indeed a multiversal power source then it is indeed more powerful than the IG. The IG just has more variety. Either way you've misunderstood the point to my participation. Im not taking sides in this debate. I was just merely highlighting the misconceptions presented by L.U as fact, thats all. I dont know enough about the ALE to make a decision on the outcome and as such i havent really bothered.}}}

Like I said, theres no misconceptions. I know what im intentionally referring to when it comes to IG, I only admit that when it comes to ALE, im only going on from what I hear and read.

If you're not going to bother making a prediction of whose victory it is, then whats the point to even posting on this threat? TO MODERATE ME ? Wow GS...im flattered

Big Sexy

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If it is indeed a multiversal power source then it is indeed more powerful than the IG. The IG just has more variety. Either way you've misunderstood the point to my participation. Im not taking sides in this debate. I was just merely highlighting the misconceptions presented by L.U as fact, thats all. I dont know enough about the ALE to make a decision on the outcome and as such i havent really bothered.
They say that the ALE has the power to make those bend to its will and obey it.

The problem is that ALE has been under different interpretations that have been seen.

Their have been allusions made but nothing more.

Their is one comic, in which the ale was found by darkseid but he only used the power to take control of New Genesis and Earth. In the end of this comic, he is defeated by Superman, but the comic is not canon.

The point is that even if the ALE has an affect in a different universe does not mean it is automatically above a universe.

Big Sexy

I know I have used this but look at Mephisto.
In a fight in his own realm he was able to defeat the Silver Surfer but as soon as he leaves, the surfer was able to defeat him.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{{You are not at liberty to do so as this is not your thread. If you think that current IG loses then say that and move on. As per forum rules unless otherwise stated by the threadmaker all featured characters and objects are the their current canon incarnations. Its irrelevant if you dont like that.}}}}

Talis hasn't stated the limits. He/She hasn't stated which version of the IG he's talking about. People bring up Classic Beyonder and Pre Crisis Darksied and PC Superman all the time, so I have every right to bring up the original IG saga and the gems themselves.

Read my previous post and then read what you've said above. You must be very tired. confused

As Talis has not stated the limits as i have said , the thread is therefore pertaining to current incarnations, if you dont like that then take it up with a mod.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
LIKE I ALREADY SAID..this is not about what i like or dont like. this is about what I think.

Unless what you think is supported on panel then it is irrelevant in this debate.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I already said if its current IG ALe wins...if its classic IG Ale doesn't. I have every right to bring up classic IG since:

1) by Facts current IG loses, what other point to this debate would there be

The success of the thread if it is current incarnations is none of your concern, that is for Tallis to sort out.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
2) For the reasons concerning classic beyonder etc.

Must have missed that when i bypassed the rant.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I don't care if you say I don't have the Liberty to do so, people voice their opinions hear all the time, no matter how rediculous some of them may be, I have the right to do the same.

Of course people voice their opinions here all the time but when they do so its on topic, or if its not a poster or a mod usually comes in and tells everyone to stay on topic. You do NOT have the right to ignore forum rules just because in your opinion other sdo the same. Thats the most ridiculous logic ive heard. confused

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{Not your thread. Youre not at liberty to do so. You've already stated that you think the IG would lose so why carry on?}}}}

I stated Current IG would lose. Not REAL IG. I admit I personally see the Infinity Gauntlet saga as the real scenario of IG since that's the Saga its all based on. I have every right to do so, continue to tell me all you want that I cannot refer to this, I still will.

Real Ig? The current interpretation is no less real than the one youre so fond of. You mean youre favoured IG, which at the moment just happens to have nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. sad

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
As long as someone beleives that ALE can beat IG in any scenario, I feel obliged to defend my opinion.

Any other questions ?

Your entitled to defend your argument but as long as its in line with thread parameters, which you are dismissing because that would mean your favoured combatant more than likely loses. wink

Big Sexy

GS I have a question.
Lets take the 616 and Ultimate universe for example
Lets say I can destroy a planet in both the 616 and the ultimate universe.
Lets say that you can destroy the entire 616 but you have no power in the Ultimate Universe.
Who do you think is stronger if we fought in the 616.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{If it is indeed a multiversal power source then it is indeed more powerful than the IG. The IG just has more variety. Either way you've misunderstood the point to my participation. Im not taking sides in this debate. I was just merely highlighting the misconceptions presented by L.U as fact, thats all. I dont know enough about the ALE to make a decision on the outcome and as such i havent really bothered.}}}

Like I said, theres no misconceptions. I know what im intentionally referring to when it comes to IG, I only admit that when it comes to ALE, im only going on from what I hear and read.

There were misconceptions as you admittedly didnt know about the current IG incarnation. You also had misconceptions about the Infinity Being creating the multiverse and it being a multiversal being. I came in and clarified. Now you are better informed youre ignoring continuity in favour of your preferred interpretation. By doing so youre convoluting the thread and breaking forum rules.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If you're not going to bother making a prediction of whose victory it is, then whats the point to even posting on this threat? TO MODERATE ME ? Wow GS...im flattered

I will make a prediction when i find out more about the ALE. Until then im just monitoring the debate and correcting any misconceptions ive come across. You've kept me quite busy in that regard. smile

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Big Sexy
GS I have a question.
Lets take the 616 and Ultimate universe for example
Lets say I can destroy a planet in both the 616 and the ultimate universe.
Lets say that you can destroy the entire 616 but you have no power in the Ultimate Universe.
Who do you think is stronger if we fought in the 616.

I know what youre trying to say, but given that by forum rules they'd be fighting in an arena where both their powers work as normal, it doesnt really matter. Theyre on neutral ground.

I dont know much about the ALE so im going to read a few books 2nite and find out if its truly multiversal as has been claimed, because what evidence has been put forward so far is a bit suspect.

Lord Urizen

{{{{Read my previous post and then read what you've said above. You must be very tired.

As Talis has not stated the limits as i have said , the thread is therefore pertaining to current incarnations, if you dont like that then take it up with a mod. }}}}}}

Bro I dont have to take up anything. I'm just going to continue my argument as I have been doing.

{{{{Unless what you think is supported on panel then it is irrelevant in this debate.}}}}

It's not irrevelent if I'm talking about the Infinity Gems. They were mentioned on this debate you know.

{{{The success of the thread if it is current incarnations is none of your concern, that is for Tallis to sort out.}}}}

What ?

{{{{Must have missed that when i bypassed the rant.}}}}

Bro I'm never this disrespectful to anyone, even when I know thier full of BS. I think this will be my last response to you.

{{{Of course people voice their opinions here all the time but when they do so its on topic, or if its not a poster or a mod usually comes in and tells everyone to stay on topic. You do NOT have the right to ignore forum rules just because in your opinion other sdo the same. Thats the most ridiculous logic ive heard. }}}}

If i was talking about anything other than Infinity Gems of ALE than you'd be right. Oh sorry for brining up Classic Beyonder.

If that's the most rediculous logic you ever heard, than you must have no heard a lot.

{{{{Real Ig? The current interpretation is no less real than the one youre so fond of. You mean youre favoured IG, which at the moment just happens to have nothing whatsoever to do with this thread.}}}

It has to do with my justification for using classic IG instead of current IG, so yes it does have something to do with the thread. It's more real to me either way.

Current IG has no weight against ALE....so why should I defend THAT version of it ? I can't ! It's been severely de powered.

{{{{Your entitled to defend your argument but as long as its in line with thread parameters, which you are dismissing because that would mean your favoured combatant more than likely loses}}}

I cannot stick with Current IG, because I have no way of defending it against ALE. Big Sexy isn't using current IG either. He's referring to the IG that gave Thanos reality control over his Universe. If he can do that, so can I.

Again...this is not about favor. Yes, I like Thanos better than Darkseid, but I also like Pheonix better than Thanos. Yet, I'm choosing the version of Thanos' IG which would actually give him a CHANCE at winning this versus thread.

I have every right to do so, and I will continue doing so.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Lord Urizen

{{{I will make a prediction when i find out more about the ALE. Until then im just monitoring the debate and correcting any misconceptions ive come across. You've kept me quite busy in that regard. }}}

I can't wait to hear your argument, although it seems that from what already has been said, current ALE would beat current IG.

BTW Glad I gave you something to do lol

Big Sexy

Actually you could use current IG in this arguement. With the power his did use it to trap of the The celestials, Galactus, and Eternity. My point is I don't think that the ALE is stronger than Eternity.

Big Sexy

If I had to guess, I wouls say it would probably be equal to an incomplete cube being whose powers just extend to more than one Universe. I believe it is beneath Eternity. But thats just speculation until we see what it can do.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

I have every right to do so, and I will continue doing so.

You have no right to do so whatsoever as when you signed up to this forum you agreed to abide by its rules. Youre taking it upon yourself to ignore said rules because you feel the match up is unfair if you abide by the rules and use current incarnations.

Why dont you try to do what most sensible posters would do in the same situation and either post a suggestion to the threadmaker or better still create your own thread where you can dictate the parameters. Either way youre being very inconsiderate by posting as you please. A little maturity goes a long way in making a fine debator. sad

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Big Sexy
If I had to guess, I wouls say it would probably be equal to an incomplete cube being whose powers just extend to more than one Universe. I believe it is beneath Eternity. But thats just speculation until we see what it can do.

Ive just looked at your gender and seen youre a guy. I dont know why but with the name Big Sexy i always assumed you were a girl lol

Big Sexy

It comes from Kevin Nash back when he was great in WCW.

It just play on words like LLCoolJ

Lord Urizen

{{{You have no right to do so whatsoever as when you signed up to this forum you agreed to abide by its rules. Youre taking it upon yourself to ignore said rules because you feel the match up is unfair if you abide by the rules and use current incarnations. }}}}}

Okay..so Current IG probably loses to Current ALe. Happy ?

I've only said that much atleast a million times.

{{{{{Why dont you try to do what most sensible posters would do in the same situation and either post a suggestion to the threadmaker or better still create your own thread where you can dictate the parameters.}}}}}}

I would, but then I'd have to repeat my arguments over again, and considering I've repeated myself many times, I'd rather not now.

Besides, Posting " Thanos with CLASSIC IG and DARKSIED WITH CURRENT ALE" seems kinda pointless.

Ne ways ill still ask MOD to read my posts, and ask if he/she feels that I went too far. OK ?

{{{Either way youre being very inconsiderate by posting as you please. A little maturity goes a long way in making a fine debator.}}}}

Don't talk to me about maturity. I don't use sarcasm and insults to make my points. I'm totally honest in my intepretations and arguments, I dont resort to trying to make the other look stupid.

I wouldn't call it posting as I please, I made my arguments pretty clear. If you so choose to disregard my points for w/e reason, do so, its your right.

leonidas

until the nature of the dcu is decided upon, it is again difficult to say anything in the dcu is truly multiversal. if the ale DOES have some part to play in providing imps with their reality altering powers then clearly it goes beyond simply controlling will. frankly, there is not a definitive version of the ale, which is why it is always so hard to debate it. given what orion did with it, it does seem to have both the ability to control any will, as well as the power to destroy the universe -- whatever the dcu really is.

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by leonidas
No Non-canon Sources

Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.
As well, instances of PIS (plot induce stupidity - see below) and SvFL (Spiderman vs. Firelord - see below) are generally removed from consideration in standard versus debates.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!)..

I don't see how i violated the forum rules, and I already sent an email to the MODS about my using the Infinity Gems in thier original content, instead of current ret con.

I mean, I'll check through the rules once more if I must, but I don't see it.

It defines a CANON SOURCE is being one in the Countinuity EX: Star Trek is only canon from the series and movies, but books do not count.

The canon sources in my argument WAS the INFINITY GAUNTLET ITSELF AND THANOS QUEST...

How did break the rules ?

Big Sexy

The power of the ALE seems very limited to me. It seems very tame compared to the other great cosmic powers.

leonidas

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I don't see how i violated the forum rules, and I already sent an email to the MODS about my using the Infinity Gems in thier original content, instead of current ret con.

I mean, I'll check through the rules once more if I must, but I don't see it.

It defines a CANON SOURCE is being one in the Countinuity EX: Star Trek is only canon from the series and movies, but books do not count.

The canon sources in my argument WAS the INFINITY GAUNTLET ITSELF AND THANOS QUEST...

How did break the rules ?

are you addressing that query at me? confused

personally, i don't really care which version you're talking about . . .

i don't even recall ever posting that comment you quoted! where'd that come from? incidentally, i never read the forum rules . . . embarrasment

i just always try to play nice. most times i think i succeed . . . big grin

leonidas

Originally posted by Big Sexy
The power of the ALE seems very limited to me. It seems very tame compared to the other great cosmic powers.

depends. if all someone with the ale needs to say is 'you're my slave' and they are, doesn't really matter if it has loads of bells and whistles.

the whole multiversal thing in dc is still up in the air. i'm almost positive there is only one canonical earth in dc as a result of crisis. elseworlds are stories that 'could have been but weren't' so they are different from what ifs. vertigo is still a bit of a question because there has been some overlap, but again, those interactions may have been retconned or seen as noncanon. (i know sandman for instance has interected with the jla). a little monkey-wrench was thrown in during ic when a bunch of alternate universes were shown. were they 'hiding'? locked away somewhere? did they come into existence while alex was 'playing'? i really don't know . . .

but let's assume for the moment dc HAS no multiverse as marvel does. what does that mean then? that any marvel multiversal power is a automatically>any uber power in dc? i don't think so. but then how do we compare? if something has power over anything in the dcu, is that enough to say it could be multiversal in marvel? the different cosmologies really make comparing high level powers like we're discussing difficult. this may call for the start of a new thread in the comicbook section . . .

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by leonidas
are you addressing that query at me? personally, i don't really care which version you're talking about . . .

i don't even recall ever posting that comment you quoted! where'd that come from? incidentally, i never read the forum rules . . . i just always try to play nice. most times i think i succeed . . .

No...Leo this was not directed at you lol

This was for GalacticStorm, and he still hasn't responded.

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
depends. if all someone with the ale needs to say is 'you're my slave' and they are, doesn't really matter if it has loads of bells and whistles.

Unless the that person is equipped with IG in my opinion. Thanos' Gauntlet may render him immune to the ALE's will power commands.

the whole multiversal thing in dc is still up in the air. i'm almost positive there is only one canonical earth in dc as a result of crisis. elseworlds are stories that 'could have been but weren't' so they are different from what ifs. vertigo is still a bit of a question because there has been some overlap, but again, those interactions may have been retconned or seen as noncanon. (i know sandman for instance has interected with the jla). a little monkey-wrench was thrown in during ic when a bunch of alternate universes were shown. were they 'hiding'? locked away somewhere? did they come into existence while alex was 'playing'? i really don't know . . .

I don't really follow that whole deal either. I don't personally care if Marvel or DC have a correct and/or consistant Multiversal or Universal structure, they retcon sh*t all the time.

I've gotten used to it, I just refer to what makes more sense in any argument.

but let's assume for the moment dc HAS no multiverse as marvel does. what does that mean then? that any marvel multiversal power is a automatically>any uber power in dc? i don't think so. but then how do we compare? if something has power over anything in the dcu, is that enough to say it could be multiversal in marvel? the different cosmologies really make comparing high level powers like we're discussing difficult. this may call for the start of a new thread in the comicbook section . . ..

Dude that's the same point I was trying to make, except that GS referred to my justifcation of that point as "rant" and pure opinion.

Just because something in DC or Marvel is multiversal does not ensure its victory over a UNIVERSAL power in another comic book company.

Someone treid to say that DC's Yahweh is much greater than Image's God, because Yahweh and the Prescense preside over multiple universes, while Image's God only has domain over ONE Universe. So what...this doesn't make Image's God inferior in anyway.

Perhaps Image's Single Universe is equal to DC or Marvel's Multiverse, and therefore GREATER than any single Universe in DC or Marvel. Whose to argue other wise? Whose to argue for it?

We don't know, so I don't think a debate about whose GOD or whose MULTIVERSE/UNIVERSE is greater, can go anywhere.