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Which team wins?

Depends on if Luke can hold off Kun long enough for a force storm.

He can't, and even if he did it only took 2.5 people to push the thing back on Sidious.

With the light side, though. As 'luminous beings' purely of the force

With the "combined potential" of 2.5 beings.

And that doesn't mean that their method of countering the Storm is the only method.

Still, IKC, that combined potential was basically the entire lightside...and it was pretty much said trying to actually fight the force storm would be useless...they pretty much shielded Sidious from the Dark Side, causing him to lose control of it. As a dark sider, Kun would be incapable of using the light in such a way unless he had a last minute epiphany

I'd say the duo, personally.

Me too, Kun isn't up to snuff to take out these two. (CoughSidiousalonecough) *Throws Lightsnake at you like a swarm of bees to kill you and runs away.*

Depends. If Kun has a way of countering the blast (I wouldn't put it behind him, we do know the Ancient Sith had a form of the technique, so there should have been a way to counter it in one shape or form. Whether he knows that technique, and can use it against Palpatine on a larger scale, is up for debate).

I say Luke goes down hard and fast, and Palpatine's force storm, and whether is can be blocked, however, is up in the air.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Me too, Kun isn't up to snuff to take out these two. (CoughSidiousalonecough) *Throws Lightsnake at you like a swarm of bees to kill you and runs away.*
IKC will now forever hate you...

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
IKC will now forever hate you...

Oh dear, how will I sleep tonight...yawn

Lol... Yea, Kun really has a way of countering the force storm. Seriously..

Eh...Kun's a hot shot, but this would be a tough fight. Undecided.

Rex, you look like one of the singers from Nsync...

Originally posted by tdtd
Rex, you look like one of the singers from Nsync...
That Band should be hung and shot for trying to kill millions with that sound they call music.

I don't know, some of their songs weren't THAT bad.. They're definitely good for karaoke.

Originally posted by tdtd
I don't know, some of their songs weren't THAT bad.. They're definitely good for karaoke.











...eer

Oh yea like all of you really hate Nsync, and not just trying to cover your manhood. PSH

I bet Luke holds off Kun long enough that Sidious can launch off a Force Storm., and I doubt Kun'd be able to block it.

That's what I said!

Originally posted by tdtd
That's what I said!
Yes, I agreed with you, for a change.

Agree, or disagree? Hmmmm

Originally posted by darthsith19
I bet Luke holds off Kun long enough that Sidious can launch off a Force Storm., and I doubt Kun'd be able to block it.

Yeah. Because Luke's a god of lightsaber combat (in any incarnation, really). Yep. Luke would totally be able to hold off a guy that actually beat centuries-old Jedi Masters when his boss couldn't match the skills of a green muppet on crack or Mace Windu when he was at his peak.

Luke goes down to a casual amulet beam and Palpatine gets decapitated.

That's assuming Kun can and will let out those beams like hotcakes. Luke isn't a God in lightsaber combat, but neither is Kun. But youre assuming that DE Luke is THAT much below Kun in saber combat, and that it would take mere seconds to destroy him and then Palpatine. Tell me, while Kun is fighting one guy? Stand there and do his nails? Seriously now. This is a difficult fight and Kun might win but I'd give it to the duo more times than not.

He can and does, even before learning jack shit about the Dark Side:

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg



What?

Yeah. Nevermind he was declared by the omniscient narrator to be a "master swordsman" even before he crafted his unique weapon and practiced his new form.

I thought you finally read the comics?



He is. Or are you suddenly putting DE Luke at the lightsaber skills of Mace Windu?



See above scans, and below scans:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3084/kunvsvodo11th.th.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3310/kunvsvodo20mk.th.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4569/kunvsvodo38ja.th.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7900/kunvsvodo47ob.th.jpg

I'm confused how a master swordsman makes him a lightsaber God? Mace Windu was also a Master Swordsman, is he a lightsaber God? And where exactly does Kun unleash his beams at his will besides the one and only time in the Massassi temple?

Mace Windu just happens to be one of the best wielders of the weapon that we've seen depicted in canon. I think he's certainly up there.

I like how you ignored how Kun got even better after that. Where do you get your blinders, anyway?



Red herring, logical fallacy.

Insinuating that he can't do it again would require you to have a premise upon which to base it.

The evidence runs counter to your insinuation - by the time of the Sith War, Kun's gained an immense amount of knowledge and power, even going so far as to create another amulet for his right hand.

Calm down IKC, your repeated use of your blinders joke doesn't change facts. However if you do consider Mace a lightsaber God, I love how you quantify Kun's power by saying "he's even better than that". I didn't know you knew something none of us knew.. Oh wait.. And nobody insinuated that he couldn't do it again, so you can save your logical fallacy lessons for somebody else, because I can assure you saying that he can do it anytime he wants, which you DID say, is quite ridiculous.. Oh yea, and the creation of another amulet.. That's a nice theory but I have a better one. Remember Ulic's amulet? Notice how you don't see it anymore once he becomes the Apprentice? Notice how you see Kun with an extra amulet? Yea that seems a little more logical and certainly dispells the notion that Exar Kun is a God..

If I'm making a joke (repeatedly? This is the first time I've used it in this thread and I've not been posting much recently) then explain to me why I need to "calm down."

And, reading comprehension much? I said Kun got even better after he was declared a "master swordsman."

Read more carefully next time.



Appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy. I've proved up, you have nothing but insinuation.



Except then you read the comics and see that Ulic's was a literal amulet that hung around his neck and looked nothing like Kun's, whereas the one that Kun built went on his right hand like a gauntlet, exactly as Sadow's went on his left.

So what are you, Lightsnake, thinking that these Sith Lords just find uber amulets sitting on the ground?

Source material > tdtd, once again.

1. You've overused your blinders joke, or insult.
2. Prove that Kun built an amulet
3. Prove Kun can use his blast anytime he wants.

Conclusion: I'm not contradicting the material, you are with your unfounded assumptions. I believe that's also an appeal to ridicule. Unless of course there's a difference between saying he can't use it again(which I didn't), and saying he can use it anytime he wants(which you did).And your comparison of lightsnake to me sounds like a personal attack, yet another logical fallacy.. I can point them out just as well as you can. So answer those 2 questions with proof, thanks.

You're right you aren't contradicting the material, you just aren't providing much reason as to why you made the claim of "that's assuming Kun can and will".

Which is why you should usually provide evidence as to why he might not be able too from the start of the claim. Sometimes it's acceptable, however, in a "close match-up" it's not.

The only thing I know you provided, which wasn't exactly proof or reason to base a theory off of, was about him using the amulet blasts only once.



I'm assuming IKC is logical deducting from:

- Kun using his amulet blasts before he learned jack shit about them, and the Darkside.
- He's gotten much more powerful since then, and now has a better grasp over the Darkside, and Ancient Sith teachings.

Hell, after he kills Odan-Urr, the omniscent narrator states "Odan-Urr has gone to the Force, leaving the darkest power in the galaxy to walk away with something that will make him even stronger".

As well, he uses a blast on Aleema. It was only an incapacitating blast, but a blast nonetheless. Not to mention, where did the opportunity arise for Kun to use his amulets? Vodo? No reason. Odan-Urr? No reason.

The only time where it would've been useful was againt all the Jedi in the galaxy, literally "thousands upon thousands", and I highly doubt that no matter how many amulet blasts Kun used, that it wouldn't have stopped them.



No, it's not. He hasn't set your argument up to the point of where it seems absurd. IKC was initially debating the point that you said "assuming he can and will". IKC has provided proof he, in-fact, can and will use them.



Except logical deducting, there is proof he can use it again.



It would be a personal attack if he said you were wrong just based on the fact Lightsnake may argue something like that, however he provided the proof as to why you were wrong.

Td's not me, IKC...there is something I'd like to counter-this isn't a truly, 100 percent literal argument though, more hypothetical...if I say something of DE calling Luke the greatest power of light and some say 'how many other powers of light were there'...couldn't the same be applied to Kun and the other powers of darkness?

While I agree the Sith defintiely created their tools, my speculation is on which Sith made them...if the Lords themselves did it or if there was a special group of alchemists and forgemasters who had the job.

In some fairness, though Kun was a master, it's difficult to simply dismiss others in comparison to him, especially Mace who was described as one of the finest fighters the order had ever produced...and by DE, I doubt Mace could take Luke, given his expressions of skill and ability

The difference is that you're using that hyperbole ridden line as a keystone in your argument instead of using any logical deduction.

Deduce your answers from what's given, not flash the line likt it's the only that matters.



So how is this viable in a debate? Did you see forgemasters? Did you see any implication that they didn't make their own tools?

So somehow you can use this as a detractor.



I don't doubt it. If I wanted to compare hyperbole to hyperbole, I'd see Clone Wars vs. DE, and there I can see Mace doing feats that would likely keep him right up there.

evidence for the latter, Illustrious: garu and Tritos Nal, as well as Kla and Bo Vanda from the TOTJ companion. Though, by the same token, you don't see Naga and Ludo laboring in a forge to create their items
And there's a difference between greatest power of light and darkest power in the galaxy?

Uh, wasn't that line issued by an omniscient narrator? The "Greatest power of the lighside" or whatever?

I think it was Razielim. And the blast Kun used on Aleeema, according to IKC, was a different type of blast. There is no evidence to think that Kun could use it anytime he'd like. In fact that's absurd, because if that was the case then he wouldn't need a lightsaber, and could just go around randomly killing anyone in his path. I'm going to look at the DE comic now because I do believe that line was said, in which case the line about Kun being the darkest force in the galaxy is as insignificant as the line about Luke.
Not to mention I highly doubt that all the Jedi were there. Just because Kun says all the Jedi? How does he know all the Jedi were there? You're telling me every single Jedi is there? Sounds like an exaggeration

Same can be said for:

-Luke.
-Sidious.
-Dooku.
-Traya.
-Just about every powerful Force user.

Why didn't the Emporer use all of his "all known, previously unknown, and forgotten" (or whatever) techniques 24/7? Why choose to face Luke in lightsaber combat? Why doesn't Dooku use Force lightning in every instance? Why didn't Sadow blow up stars at every point?

The point is, he doesn't need to, nor did the situation ever arise for him to use again.



The reason I posted that line was to prove Kun had a grasp over the Darkside, and had even became more powerful than when he initially used the amulet. It was more of a "backing up the fact"-esque deal.



"Combined force of Jedi Knights", "thousands upon thousands", "all the Jedi". Said by omniscent narrator, and Kun.

http://img456.imageshack.us/my.php?image=combinedforce1yo.jpg

http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kunall6ed.jpg

Kun would know because he looks up.

I see Kun saying all of the Jedi, but it's a little hard to believe that all of the Jedi in the galaxy were gathered. They could have at least be more specific to avoid thoughts of exaggeration. And since when does Dooku, Sidious, or any Luke before NJO have the grasp of the force that Kun possesses, let alone the amulet that can supposedly destroy anything in it's path. My point is saying that saying Kun cause that amulet whenever he pleases is AS ridiculous as saying Kun can use it once.

Since when have his amulet blasts been so impresive?

The amulet blast* was VERY impressive, I had to look at it for like 30 minutes in the comic, but Exar Kun almost died in the process.

Well, Ulic saying "the Jedi Knights of the Republic are united against you", Kun saying "Even I can't fight the combined might of all the Jedi", the omniscient narrator saying "thousands upon thousands", "combined Force of Jedi Knights", and some Jedi saying he's "receiving a flood of acknowledgments from all Jedi. Thousands of them" was indication enough.

Although, if the omniscient narrator outright stated it was all the Jedi it would've been a lot easier.



If Sidious knew "all techniques", he would know instakilling moves, so why doesn't he use it on Luke? Dooku doesn't exert his Force lightning in every situation where he could have, as well numerous other people that could've used powers a, b, and c in situation x, y, and z, and Traya doesn't use her instakill abilities in every situation that arises as well. Instakilling techniques = just that.

The fact of the matter is, they don't need to, nor does Kun have to use it in the situations of the comic.



How is it as ridiculous? Let alone, ridiculous.

Logical deducting there's no reason why he would not be able too, and logical deducting he can use it again.



Perhaps you haven't read TOTJ? If that's the case, just take a look at the pictures IKC posted. Having a DBZ blast that tears through a Sith Wyrm, and temple rock = impressive.

In the right situation, even force lightning can be considered an insta kill...Sidious doesn't use a force attack on Luke for the same reason Kun doesn't on Vodo, or Naga doesn't try one on Ludo, or Kueller didn't try on Luke, or Maul didn't use the force on Qui-gon.

Yeah, that's kind of the point I was getting at.

The answer: Because the author thinks a saber battle is cooler

First of all since when does Sidious know all the force attacks? Secondly, it is very debateable that Kreia could use her instakill without her life bond to the exile. Thirdly, absence of proof shows that Kun used it once and was afraid to use it again. While this isn't a logical reason for him never to use it again, there is nothing to suggest Kun mastered the dark side to the point where he CAN use it whenever he wants, unless you want to quantify his power or the power it would take to use the amulet as easily as Naga Sadow used it.

See: DE and it's supplements. I'm not debating all of what Sidious knew, I'm only debating that it's safe to assume he knew an instakill technique or two.



That doesn't account for:

-Dooku.
-Sidious.
-Every powerful Force user.
-Anyone who wields the Force.



And why, pray tell, does Kun use the amulet against Aleema? Why does he use it afterwards against Nadd? Yes, I'd say he's absolutely terrified of it, so terrified he finds/creates another one (I'm not debating that), and equips it.

Not to mention, he wasn't even attuned to the Darkside at the time.



I can't say much except "..." to the actual point. If it's not a logical reason, then why even mention it?

Omniscient narrator: "What Exar Kun understands is that the dark rage that fills his own heart can be focused in this amulet, unleashing tremendous energies!"

He says he can barely control it as it multiplies in power, however this is when he had barely had knowledge of what the amulet even was, or the Darkside itself.

And, I'd say increasing in the Darkside would allow more control over a "Dark side weapon".

Ok and again how much control would it take to control the weapon and how much did exar kun have? And Exar Kun didn't use the amulet on Nadd, he stuck it through Nadd, that's not using it.

I suppose turning the amulet "against his mentor" isn't using it. What do you think killed Nadd? Kun tickling him?

I think that tdtd meant that he didn't use the blast function of the amulet.

Yup that's what I meant.

Except there's nothing to say that he can't. Indeed, Kun later notes that "Sadow's magician power" could destroy him if he doesn't master it, and then declares, "So master it I shall!"

Frankly, there's no reason why he can't use the beams. They didn't consume or destroy him when he knew jack about the Dark Side, and they won't after he's learned all he knows by the end of the Sith War.

Ok so because Kun said he's going to master it automatically means that he mastered it, or means nothing except his determination? If you can prove that he can use his beams as many times as he want, it's another matter, but you can't. On another note, I'm reading comic 4 of 6 on DLOTS and Odan Urr gives Ulic a holocron detailing the life of a Jedi who wanted to destroy the dark side from within but turned to the dark side. Who is this Jedi, does anybody know? I'm assuming it was Freedon Nadd but the way it was described that it was in the ancient times.

If you want to go by his words, since he wasn't destroyed, I guess that means he did master it.



Already have. This is the last time I'll address this point until you come up with a cogent argument as to why he cannot.:

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9531/kunamulet17ql.th.jpg
http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/9180/kunamulet23rb.th.jpg

Kun, shown here, knows dick-all about the Dark Side and only moments before embraced the power of rage. Kun, by the end of the Sith War, has made immense gains in power and knowledge. Ergo, Kun can and will use the beams he fired in his early moments as a Darksider.

Except he'll use them to a greater proficiency.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Except he'll use them to a greater proficiency.

Well, that's a given.

Why would I have to proof that he can't use them? Why would I prove a negative? And somebody answer my damn question.

Because we already have proof that he can.

Um he used it once. You yourself said the attack on Aleema was a different attack.

Originally posted by tdtd
Um he used it once. You yourself said the attack on Aleema was a different attack.

Since when was I arguing his attack on Aleema for anything?

And again, repeatedly saying "he used it once" means dick-all. Make a god damned argument.

tdtd, your making blatantly bias assumptions.

Tell me, when someone as determined as Kun, why is he not going to master what he wishes to, when the knowledge is provided.

You know your bias can be hilarious, so your saying Kun can't shoot his amulet blasts because he did so once, why can you assume Luke can constantly and effortless perform his emerald lightning? By your standards, anyone that has only performed a feat once, cannot do so again.

Your logic is that Kun is not shown to have used the beams again. So therefore he cant.

Sadow isn't shown to use his illusions more than once, does that mean he cant use it again?

Luke isn't shown to use his emerald lightning more than once, does that mean he cant use it again?

Obi used the Jedi mind trick once. Can he do it again?

Of course he can. Unless the amulets destroyed themselves after a single blast, he should be able to use them again. There's no reason why he can't.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Except he'll use them to a greater proficiency.

Not really. I mean the only reason that the blasts were of such great magnitude and power was because Kun couldn't control them. The power was so great that it was dangerous even to himself. So when he learned how to control them, I doubt the blasts were anywhere near as powerful as they were when he first used them.

Originally posted by Deception
tdtd, your making blatantly bias assumptions.

Tell me, when someone as determined as Kun, why is he not going to master what he wishes to, when the knowledge is provided.

You know your bias can be hilarious, so your saying Kun can't shoot his amulet blasts because he did so once, why can you assume Luke can constantly and effortless perform his emerald lightning? By your standards, anyone that has only performed a feat once, cannot do so again.

Your logic is that Kun is not shown to have used the beams again. So therefore he cant.

Sadow isn't shown to use his illusions more than once, does that mean he cant use it again?

Luke isn't shown to use his emerald lightning more than once, does that mean he cant use it again?

Wrong, I'm saying Kun CAN"T use it just whenever he feels like it. I'm glad he's a determined human being who wants to master all sith knowledge, but how do we know that he mastered it to the point where he can control the amulet, since we don't see it. I'm not doubting he can use it again, the question is can he use it anytime he wants.. It's weird how you're going to sit there and tell me "Oh he mastered it to the point where he can use it anytime he wants, for sure"..

I think that IKC made a very convincing argument that suggests that he mastered it, but I still don't think that he would be able to use it to as frightening a degree as he could in DLOTS.

He MAY have mastered to the point where he can knock opponents out with it as he did to Aleema, but to do what he did the Sadow's beast, anytime he wants, is doubtful.

Of course. Read what I said 4 posts back.

Then why don't you provide a convincing argument that it'd be doubtful? All you and Fox are saying is "I doubt it", just saying that you "doubt" it is not substitution for an argument.



Perhaps you missed the "What Exar Kun understands is that the dark rage that fills his own heart can be focused in this amulet, unleashing tremendous energies!" part.

Kun used his rage to power the amulet, which undoubtedly every Sith always has a dark rage in their heart. Not to mention, he couldn't control them because for one he hadn't even became attuned to the Dark side, two hadn't mastered jack about it.

Now, you are going to tell me when he becomes much more powerful, has Sadow's notes, works with Sith alchemy, becomes Dark Lord of the Sith, that he can't control that much power? Think logically, or at the least, put up an argument if you are going to assert your doubts.

I am thinking logically, that's like saying "Oh well he learned ALL of Sadow's teachings". How do you know he learned all of his teachings or that he even had a fraction of knowledge Sadow had. How do you know how much more powerful Kun got, and if it was powerful enough to the point where he can control those amulet blasts without killing himself. I don't see how you think it's logical for him to use the blasts ANYTIME he feels like it. Interestingly enough when he had all those Jedi about to defeat him, he didn't do anything except shed his body. Why didn't he use the amulet to take the Jedi out or at least attempt to? He's had PLENTY of opportunities to use the amulet blasts, opportunities that would require it, and he didn't. Ergo, he either COULDN'T control the blasts, or he was afraid to try.

Originally posted by tdtd
I am thinking logically, that's like saying "Oh well he learned ALL of Sadow's teachings". How do you know he learned all of his teachings or that he even had a fraction of knowledge Sadow had. How do you know how much more powerful Kun got, and if it was powerful enough to the point where he can control those amulet blasts without killing himself.


No. You're not thinking logically. Kun was able to use the amulet blasts without killing himself when he didn't even have started to use the Dark Side. Why would he not be able to do the same, after he mastered tons of Sith magic ? And even better: Why would he equip himself with another amulet if the first is already to much to handle for him. That's illogical.




Eh...really dude...
The Jedi were above his HQ in the number of thousands. Even assuming that he could fire amulet blasts out of the atmosphere - how many ships do you think he would have been able to shoot down before getting pwned himself ? The only way he saw was to "run rampant through the galaxy" as a spirit. He did want to leave his body with the reason to become more powerful.



What use would it have been to shoot down 10 or 20 ships before getting his ass kicked by thousands of Jedi ? And in what other fights should he had used them ? He either killed his opponents without needing the amulet or confronted beings who might have had some large protection against the amulet blasts (Ulic having a similar amulet, Odd having back up by the entire power of Ossus).

interesting.. Then again who's to say he created the second amulet, and not found it?

Originally posted by tdtd
interesting.. Then again who's to say he created the second amulet, and not found it?

That doesn't matter. Why would he put on the second amulet if he wasn't able to handle / control the first ?

Do you even know what the second amulet does? And why would it be contingent on the first one necessarily?

Originally posted by tdtd
Do you even know what the second amulet does? And why would it be contingent on the first one necessarily?

Because we only see the the effects of Sith amulets when Kun uses them (and Ulic tries to). For all we know, they all can do what Kun used the first to do. We don't know that there's a variety.

hmm perhaps

Originally posted by tdtd
Depends on if Luke can hold off Kun long enough for a force storm.

i SAY he can

Originally posted by Hokage Yoda
i SAY he can

Uh?

LOL

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Then why don't you provide a convincing argument that it'd be doubtful? All you and Fox are saying is "I doubt it", just saying that you "doubt" it is not substitution for an argument.



Perhaps you missed the "What Exar Kun understands is that the dark rage that fills his own heart can be focused in this amulet, unleashing tremendous energies!" part.

Kun used his rage to power the amulet, which undoubtedly every Sith always has a dark rage in their heart. Not to mention, he couldn't control them because for one he hadn't even became attuned to the Dark side, two hadn't mastered jack about it.

Now, you are going to tell me when he becomes much more powerful, has Sadow's notes, works with Sith alchemy, becomes Dark Lord of the Sith, that he can't control that much power? Think logically, or at the least, put up an argument if you are going to assert your doubts.

You have completely missed my point. You seem to think that I was saying that Kun couldn't control the blasts because they were so powerful. I was actually saying that the blasts were so powerful because he couldn't control them. There is a difference.

Wait, before I respond...you were actually trying to make a point?



Point being: The amulet amplifies his own power and rage, so whatever size/power of the blasts Kun did when he first received it, he is still capable of.

On top of that, Kun says he can "just barely direct it", meaning he still has some control over the blast even at that power.

lol listen here missy, no need to be a smartass. I was just giving my opinion, and I think that it's a pretty sound one.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, but I actually think Blak Fox has a point. Kun himself risked his life when he first did it, and he used it with all his rage. When he later on studied all about it and what Sadow had to say about, I'm sure he understood perfectly well what caused that beam to be so powerful that it was a risk to himself, so instead he used it on a smaller scale "because he could control it".

On a smaller scale he can control it, as he did against Aleema. It remains to be seen if he can control it on a great scale.

Originally posted by BLAK FOX
lol listen here missy, no need to be a smartass. I was just giving my opinion, and I think that it's a pretty sound one.

And your opinion = unsubstantiated nonsense...

lol