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Who wins?

Luke rapes Malak and Kyp while Sidious smokes a cigar.

DN Luke can take this alone.

Uh...he is alone. It's DN Luke vs DE Sids, kyp and Malak....

Touche did not notice that. I would give it to DN Luke unless Sidious can somehow get his force storm up. In the case of 1 on 3 I think throwing those 3 in a black hole would work

Sidious and Kyp can probably beat Luke after a time with their force powers. Malak would act as a shield and allow Kyp and Sidious to attack Luke without having to worry about a lightsaber. I can see the trio winning this.

At the same time I see Luke being above all 3 in lightsaber combat, not to mention there's plenty he can do in terms of the force to protect himself from the trio. Shooting them into space is one of the many possibilities..

You think they can't defend themselves from that? DN Luke isn't the god you make him out to be, td. I could just as easily say DE Sidious will open a wormhole and transport Luke to the center of the nearest star.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Malak would act as a shield...

That would probably give Sidious and Kyp 3 seconds of additional time before getting destroyed. Malak is almost a non-issue here and I doubt that Kyp and Sidious do have the force power to give Luke real problems. And if that turns into a lightsaber fight, Luke would destroy them pretty easily considering his lightsaber abilities shown in TUF and the DN trilogy.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You think they can't defend themselves from that? DN Luke isn't the god you make him out to be, td. I could just as easily say DE Sidious will open a wormhole and transport Luke to the center of the nearest star.

Argumentum ad hominem

And no, they can't defend themselves from that, what makes you think they could? And Sidious can't create a force storm without a distance between him and Luke, otherwise he'll kill everybody.

Originally posted by tdtd
Argumentum ad hominem

And no, they can't defend themselves from that, what makes you think they could? And Sidious can't create a force storm without a distance between him and Luke, otherwise he'll kill everybody.

No ad hominem. He didn't attack you to diminish your argument. He said Luke isn't as strong as you make himout to be. Which in this case, absolutely.

Kyp duplicated Luke's feat of controlling a miniature black hole, Sidious could potentially wormhole him into some quarter of the galaxy, and Malak could offer 2 to 3 seconds of a meatshield.

And what makes you think Luke can bring a black hole within such close proximity and be completely unaffected?

As I recall, throwing them into a black hole doesn't require as much space as creating a force storm. And no, I'm not making Luke out to be a God, but he is above all 3 of these characters, in Force abilities and in lightsaber combat.

I don't see him being above Sidious on his own.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sidious and Kyp can probably beat Luke after a time with their force powers.

How? I can imagine that Kyp's raw power and Sidious's expertise could irk Luke to a degree, but considering he stopped Raynar'smassive Force-push without much apparent effort, and actually tangled with Sidious quite well almost thirty years before-hand, they certainly won't be bringing him down anytime soon.



Luke would annihilate Malak with such impunity and speed that I can barely describe it. He'd either toss him aside like a ragdoll or eviscerate him with a lightsaber, then move on to tackle the powerhouses here.

You don't see DN Luke above Sidious? Wow...Good thing it's only an opinion, considering DN Luke is at his peak and would be a challenge(He won't win) for the ancient sith.

Originally posted by tdtd
considering DN Luke is at his peak and would be a challenge(He won't win) for the ancient sith.

Wow. That isn't unestablished horse shit.

</sarcasm>

Watch it, IKC...

Lol...Watch the anger IKC, we all know you hate Luke but come on.. I wouldn't have that reaction if you said the same thing about Exar Kun.

*sigh*

Back on topic, please. The rest of the forumers and I probably don't care about any petty grudges going on...

*cares*

But yeah, I definitely see Luke taking this.

indeed

Luke doesnt take this IMHO, its unknown whether Luke would have enough power to take Sidious alone(he had help last time)...adding DN Kyp and Malak would turn the tides I think.

Oh yes, DE Luke took down DE Sidious with an untrained Leia, but a Luke with 40+ more years of training, new force abilities, and an infinite amount of knowledge from Ossus couldn't.. Please..

Technically, it's twenty-ish, but yeah. We've seen vast leaps in power since then.

DN is some thirty years after DE, isn't it? I think by this point Luke would be capable of taking down Sidious. Including Malak and Durron, however, makes things less likely. I say the Skywalker loses this one.

Explain Rex? He has 20-30+ years of training, knowledge, etc.. You've seen what he is capable with the force.. Give him a lightsaber and he'll curbstomp all 3.. There are very few people DN Luke can't take, and Sidious is certainly not on that list.

Originally posted by tdtd
Oh yes, DE Luke took down DE Sidious with an untrained Leia, but a Luke with 40+ more years of training, new force abilities, and an infinite amount of knowledge from Ossus couldn't.. Please..

Apparently you havent read the comics. To defeat Sidious, it required the POTENTIAL of Luke, Leia and Leias unborn son combined. The potential of 3 Skywalkers...do you have any idea how much power this is? Yet Sidious had so fully mastered the dark side, it almost didnt even matter.

I HAVE read the comics, and apparently you don't get it. It took the potential of a somewhat trained, an untrained Leia, and a damn baby, to defeat Sidious. So "3 skywalkers" doesn't mean anything in this. Then he found Ossus. 30 years later Luke was creating force powers and going apeshit with the force, so the two aren't comparable. Sidious isn't in the same league as NJO/DN Luke.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Apparently you havent read the comics. To defeat Sidious, it required the POTENTIAL of Luke, Leia and Leias unborn son combined. The potential of 3 Skywalkers...do you have any idea how much power this is? Yet Sidious had so fully mastered the dark side, it almost didnt even matter.

Did you miss the part when Luke cut off his hand with the spiritual aid of his sister and a fetus?

I did say Luke could take Sidious, didn't I?

Yes, but I'm saying DN Luke tools all 3 competitors.. He'll break a sweat sure, but that's about it.

Originally posted by tdtd
I HAVE read the comics, and apparently you don't get it. It took the potential of a somewhat trained, an untrained Leia, and a damn baby, to defeat Sidious. So "3 skywalkers" doesn't mean anything in this. Then he found Ossus. 30 years later Luke was creating force powers and going apeshit with the force, so the two aren't comparable. Sidious isn't in the same league as NJO/DN Luke.


Do you understand the meaning of the word potential? It was all the power the 3 Skywalkers would ever achieve, and it *still* was just barely enough.


Sidious invented his own powers as well, and he is indeed in the same league as DN Luke.

What powers did Sidious invent? Rediscovered and amplified, perhaps, but he couldn't even control them.

Originally posted by Faunus
What powers did Sidious invent? Rediscovered and amplified, perhaps, but he couldn't even control them.


He invented force storm, and his wormhole technique.

Quantify the potential then GV? What's that, you can't? And Sidious reinvented nothing, as Faunus said, he just rediscovered a power he couldn't control.

Palpatine was controlling his powers fine until that pesky 'entire lightside blocking from the dark' thing.

And why is unborn Anakin's incredible force potential and raw lightside power totally ignored?

Because you kids can't quantify the damn power of a fetus and an untrained Jedi. All of a sudden "Skywalker" means uber leetness? Please...

Leia's power? Compared directly to the Sunrider mother and daughter of old.
And yeah, Skywalker has always meant 'leetness'....once more, actual comic describes Anakin as just what I said

Originally posted by tdtd
Because you kids can't quantify the damn power of a fetus and an untrained Jedi. All of a sudden "Skywalker" means uber leetness? Please...


Lol...

Quantify it? You want me to give the exact mathematical value? 28,200 perhaps?


The potential of any Skywalker is enormous, that should be enough.

Originally posted by tdtd
Quantify the potential then GV? What's that, you can't? And Sidious reinvented nothing, as Faunus said, he just rediscovered a power he couldn't control.

Show one example of anyone else using force storm or wormhole? You cant? Thought so.

Except for the fact that the force storm was derived from the ancient Sith? "Thought so".

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Lol...

Quantify it? You want me to give the exact mathematical value? 28,200 perhaps?


The potential of any Skywalker is enormous, that should be enough.



Really.. So the potential of an untrained Jedi and a fetus speaks volumes for Sidous? Or not.

Originally posted by tdtd
Except for the fact that the force storm was derived from the ancient Sith? "Thought so".

Proof? Oh right you dont have any.

Except for the fact that you can google it and find many many sources of the force storm being used prior to Palpatine, and it being derived from the ancient sith is a fact... Look it up before typing, thanks.

See: Anakin Skywalker and Ben Skywalker...potential abound

Originally posted by tdtd
Really.. So the potential of an untrained Jedi and a fetus speaks volumes for Sidous? Or not.

Apparently you still havent grasped the concept of potential. The fact that Leia was untrained and Anakin was still a fetus is irrelevent. It was their *potential*...everything that they were capable of becoming. Do you need to look up 'potential' in a dictionary?

Here

Gee, their grandfather is only the force itself and baby Anakin was described as practically a luminous being, purely of the force and a great jedi already

Except baby Anakin was a fetus at the time of the fight. Except with their "force potential", they were able to stop Palpatine and his force storm, make him lose control for it, etc.. This puts Palpatine on a higher pedestal, or even in the same league as DN Luke, how?

Originally posted by tdtd
Except for the fact that you can google it and find many many sources of the force storm being used prior to Palpatine, and it being derived from the ancient sith is a fact... Look it up before typing, thanks.


The burden of proof is yours, come back when you find it.

Originally posted by tdtd
Yes I know what potential is, thanks for the lesson. Yet you still haven't been able to quantify how great the potential of Leia and Anakin are, and this doesn't speak volumes for Sidious either.

You're welcome for the lesson. That'll be 25 USD please.

Who in the goddamn world said I was arguing it? I was only saying that just because Anakin was a fetus, and Leia was untrained doesn't mean that their potentials are necessarily weak.

Gotcha Sama... GV I don't have to prove it, there are some things on this forum that are basic facts, that don't need proof.

And this isn't one of them

Actually it is, because for one, we know Darth Bane used a force storm during one of the Ruusan battles...

Point: Luke was only able to "overpower" Sidious when he combined his potential with that of Leia's and the unborn Anakin's.

Whatever training he's had beyond that point, then, is irrelevant. Palpatine is still more powerful than Luke.

Palpatine may indeed take this alone.

I believe it's mentioned in the TOTJ Companion about the Force storms.

LOL! That's some infallible logic IKC, except for the fact that this isn't DE Luke, it's DN Luke. Palpatine has no chance against DN Luke, but thanks for your opinion.. That's as ridiculous as me saying Freedon Nadd could take Exar Kun at the height of his power(which I have said)..

THanks for the source Sama..
Luke takes this after some time.

That wasn't a force storm and more a 'hyper blast of pure dark side' 26 Sith lrods hurled together

It's defined as a force storm lightsnake. Now perhaps Palpatine's version was a lot more powerful but the fact remains that it was derived from the ancient sith, and knowing the ancient sith, theirs was more powerful.

Originally posted by tdtd
LOL! That's some infallible logic IKC, except for the fact that this isn't DE Luke, it's DN Luke. Palpatine has no chance against DN Luke, but thanks for your opinion.. That's as ridiculous as me saying Freedon Nadd could take Exar Kun at the height of his power(which I have said)..

I suggest you get a better grasp of the English language.

The full potential of Luke, Leia, and Anakin was just enough to stop Sidious. No matter how much training DN Luke has had is completely irrelevant; his full potential alone was not sufficient to beat the realized power of DE Sidious.

Oh, and to remind you: Appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy.

Originally posted by tdtd
Actually it is, because for one, we know Darth Bane used a force storm during one of the Ruusan battles...

No, that was called a thought bomb. Its been going around the forum that Bane could use force storms, but Im afraid this is a false rumor.

Hmm IKC.. Translation: I didn't read DE.. If you read it, you would know that their full potential was to stop the force storm, which they succeeded in. And of course this doesn't constitute the fact that Luke's potential increased over the years, as shown in NJO/DN where Luke is powerful enough to be in a different league than Palpatine. Then again, nowhere in the comics did it mentione the combined fullest potential of the three, but way to downplay Luke.

Originally posted by tdtd
Hmm.. Translation: I didn't read DE.. If you read it, you would know that their full potential was to stop the force storm, which they succeeded in. And of course this doesn't constitute the fact that Luke's potential increased over the years, as shown in NJO/DN where Luke is powerful enough to be in a different league than Palpatine.

You still havent made the realization that potential is unchanging. Come back when you fully grasp the concept.

And you still fail to understand between the difference between "potential" and "full combined potential". Come back when you read the comics.

Originally posted by tdtd
Hmm IKC.. Translation: I didn't read DE.. If you read it, you would know that their full potential was to stop the force storm, which they succeeded in. And of course this doesn't constitute the fact that Luke's potential increased over the years, as shown in NJO/DN where Luke is powerful enough to be in a different league than Palpatine.

You've even had the definition for potential laid out for you and you still don't know what the word means.

I'll make it clearer: Potential cannot increase, jackass. Realized potential can, sure, but in DE Luke, Leia, and Anakin used their full potential to stop Palpatine.

No matter how much of his potential that Luke has realized by DN is irrelevant. It is not enough to overtake Sidious.

Personal attacks, way to go big boy.. Please stop crying, And again, I advise you to read the comics before you spew out nonsense. There is "potential" and there is "fullest combined potential". If you don't know the difference, don't post. Sidious isn't in the same league as DN Luke, no matter what you're trying to tell yourself.

Originally posted by tdtd
And you still fail to understand between the difference between "potential" and "full combined potential". Come back when you read the comics.

Umm?


What the hell? Appeal to common sense please?

If Luke pulls off his lightshow, it very well could be enough to beat Sidious

GV please don't act like you know what that means, thanks. Open the comic book.

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Owner/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/darkempire.jpg

That is Palpatine's Force Storm.

Very interesting, I've just opened up DE, and Leia and Luke stopped Palpatine's force storm, that's all, which is a nice accomplishment, so thanks for reading the comics IKC.. Oh wait.

tdtd, it's quite apparent that you don't understand the definition of the word "potential."

IF Luke, Leia, and Anakin had to use their full potential to defeat Sidious, THEN Luke alone, no matter how much of his potential he's realized by DN, will never be able to defeat Sidious.

Originally posted by tdtd
Very interesting, I've just opened up DE, and Leia and Luke stopped Palpatine's force storm, that's all, which is a nice accomplishment, so thanks for reading the comics IKC.. Oh wait.

Tdtd go to SWcomics.com and read DE II.

Originally posted by tdtd
GV please don't act like you know what that means, thanks. Open the comic book.

*You* open the comic book, everything that we have said has gone straight over your head.

We? Lol.

Oh, Luke's alone. Missed that. Well, in that case, I'm sure Kyp and Malak could hold him off until Sidious creates a Force Storm. If Luke gets hit by the Force Storm, he wins. If he blocks it, if he's even able to block it, then Sidious would attack him with his lightsaber. Then it'd be a 3 on 1 saber duel and, IMO, could go either way.

The saber fight would go Luke's way, as he is above and beyond all 3 of these guys. If Palpatine can create a force storm, which he will need a distance for, there is no SW character that can combat it.

Originally posted by tdtd
We? Lol.

Yes we, incase you havent noticed, no one agrees with you.

Unsupported assumption.

Indeed, I only see him being above Kit in saber combat. He had to have help to disarm Sidious, who held him down with one hand moments before.

There's also the unfortunate (for Luke) fact that he's had very little formal training with living instructors of the weapon. You people think he's good because he beat the Vong. Well, big deal. Who's to say that the PT-and-earlier Jedi wouldn't do the same, especially since they spent their lives training with the weapon?

"Oh, but the Vong ate Jedi!" - Yeah. They beat the crap out of Luke's Jedi. Again, that doesn't establish that the PT Jedi would get hammered in the same manner.

Kit=Kyp, by the way.

On Obsidian they they think Force storm is called Lightning storm

Originally posted by IKC
Kit=Kyp, by the way.

I thought you meant Kit Fisto, and was wondering what the hell you were talking about.

dance dance revolution

Originally posted by IKC
Unsupported assumption.

Indeed, I only see him being above Kit in saber combat. He had to have help to disarm Sidious, who held him down with one hand moments before.

There's also the unfortunate (for Luke) fact that he's had very little formal training with living instructors of the weapon. You people think he's good because he beat the Vong. Well, big deal. Who's to say that the PT-and-earlier Jedi wouldn't do the same, especially since they spent their lives training with the weapon?

"Oh, but the Vong ate Jedi!" - Yeah. They beat the crap out of Luke's Jedi. Again, that doesn't establish that the PT Jedi would get hammered in the same manner.


What do you mean help IKC? DN Luke is DE Luke+20-30 years of more training, so where aer you getting your information from? He'd skull**** the trio unless Sidious force storms him

Help inasmuch as Leia boosted his abilities to the point he could disarm Sidious.

And would you please learn the ****ing definition of "potential?" Luke had to combine his full potential with that of Leia and the unborn Anakin to overpower DE Sidious.

It doesn't matter how much of his potential he's realized by DN. It's not enough to beat the power that DE Sidious can put out.

Please show me the scan. So with your logic, DE Sidous>All except the ancient sith.. Please.. Show me the scan where it combined everybody's full potential, and even that is not a convincing argument when you have a Luke who has trained for 30+ more years, and gained an infinite amount of knowledge.. So again, with your logic, DE Sidious>everybody except Ancient Sith, and I'm sure you understand that's beyond faulty. Read the comics too while youre at it..

Oh wait, I forgot. With their combined potential they DID beat Sidious.. So how in the world are you going to say that Luke can't defeat him by himself? Was it necessary to combine all 3? Can you quantify the power of each skywalker? At the end, I think you haven't read the comics and you fail to understand that at THAT point in time, Luke was no match for Sidious, but come NJO and on, he was beyond him.

Well i think he means DE Sidious > All but Ancient Sith AND Exar Kun.

tdtd, in a way you do potray Luke as a god, but you haven't really established how luke would even beat Exar Kun.

Honestly, I don't think Luke's Jedi should be that powerful. Luke had to rebuild the whole damn Order, study like crazy to regain lost knowledge (find more stuff)... He doesn't have as much as the PT guys.

However, some of their "feats" in the NJO are quite simply ridiculous. Either they're just a gifted generation or they're getting a nonsensical power boost from horny writers.

And I'd just like to comment on one thing: Luke was aided by the Force Potential of 2.5 people to beat Palpatine, but we don't know how much of that was needed to beat the Emperor in the first place.

It's possible that it took less than a full potential Luke to defeat Palpatine. Leia's spell could have made it like an overkill. We see Luke floor Sidious in like, 4 panels.

Going by what I read in the NJO and the DN, I'm inclined to think so.

I don't portray Luke as a God, the books do. To Say Sidious is even on par with any Luke above DE is trying to diminish the character. How Luke would beat Kun? Throw him into a black hole? Make himself undetected by the force, which I don't exactly understand lol. He did block those AT-AT blasts, so the Kun blasts are debateable.

And Razielim I said that all along, but nobody could provide scans to back up their argument. DE Sidious was superior to DE Luke at THAT stage of Luke's life. Once he found Ossus and gained knowledge for another 15+ years, he became above most STar wars Characters. That's not me making him look like a God, that's a fact.

One thing I forgot to mention to end this thread on a high note..
George Lucas said Luke became what Anakin should have become, and that although Anakin was the chosen one, Luke had just as much potential as him. So with your logic(assuming DE even states anything similiar to combined fullest potential not being able to beat Sidious), then Sidious>The Chosen One, aka false beyond belief, considering the chosen one had the greatest potential ever. Now if DE did say all this(which I doubt because I've read the comics repeatedly), then it would undoubtedly be contradicting GL's own words, and GL's word is absolute canon, ergooooooooo, it is false, and Luke's potential was limitless, which is why he became uber l337 and uber gay.. Thank you, that is all. O'Doyle rules.

Tdtd, you realize your statement(s) don't make sense, and pretty much contradict each other?

For example:



Okay, if Luke had just as much potential then how can you state the following:



How can Luke have the same amount of ("just as much" potential as Anakin, if Anakin had the greatest potential?



How so? How are AT-AT blasts the same as blasts coming from a Dark side weapon, powered by the Force, and rage? It's somewhat like a false analogy, they have completely different properties.

Originally posted by IKC
Help inasmuch as Leia boosted his abilities to the point he could disarm Sidious.

And would you please learn the ****ing definition of "potential?" Luke had to combine his full potential with that of Leia and the unborn Anakin to overpower DE Sidious.

It doesn't matter how much of his potential he's realized by DN. It's not enough to beat the power that DE Sidious can put out.

I love that constant Luke bashing.

Would you please learn the difference between "having potential" and "having control over said potential" in terms of the force ? Obi-Wan was nearly thrown out of the temple because having very little potential. Then you have Anakin who's force potential was unmatched in the PT Jedi order. And suddenly they stalemate in a force contest when they try to force push each other on Mustafar. Using your argument Anakin should have pushed Obi-Wan into the next wall as well as he should have exterminated Dooku in AotC.

And now ask yourself how much "control" DE Luke, a nearly untrained Leia and an unborn Anakin Solo could posessed compared to a nearly 100-year-old Sith Lord who rivaled Yoda, a 900-year-old Jedi Master. Next to nothing I'd say. And this is why it needed their combined power to defeat him. By any other logic TPM Anakin should be able to destroy Yoda in a force contest because "having more potential". Hilarious.




There's also the unfortunate (for you) fact, that he had access to a complete Jedi training facility (the Chu'unthor), several Jedi holocrons, and parts of the library on Ossus. And yes - singlehandly destroying an entire army of beings that have lightsaber resistant armour and weapons, destroying their elite warriors and their toughest warrior - when all of those beings are completely immune to force attacks (so much that the force lightning arched away from them) is pretty impressive.

And I love how you ignore that some of Luke's students and Luke himself did train under and defeated actual "living PT Jedi". Kyle Katarn tooled people that were trained in PT times (Jerec), Mara Jade (who is clearly part of the NJO) and Kam Solusar were trained under Sidious and Vader - and of course you have Vima-Da-Boda, a 200 year old PT Jedi. And Luke's saber skill is above them all so much that he thinks (DN) that he can fight as good as all other Jedi using his offhand and he killed Lomi Plo, who nearly killed Mara and Jacen both at once, with "a flick of his wrist" in a lightsaber duel.

But sure...any post-ROTJ version of Luke is just ROTJ Luke who grew older (but didn't develop any saber skills or force powers) and so everyone else would curbstomp him. Especially after he has nearly 40 years of training and real combat experience under his belt.

Thank you, someone here with actual common sense and no hatred toward the Luke character.. And Sama, I'm not contradicting myself. Explain to me why it's hard to believe that they both had the same potential, yet Anakin had the midichlorians or whatever, and was the chosen one, while Luke had his father in him and had the same or almost as much potential? GL is the one who said Luke became what his father was supposed to become, and that he had either as much potential or almost as much. Either way it defeats this imaginary logic of "oh he lost to Sidious with combined force potential of blah blah blah".. Please.. There's way too much Luke bashing on here.

Because if you say that they had the same potential, how is Anakin the one with the greatest potential?

It's contradictory.

Greatest = superlative (surpassing or superior to all others), therefore there is no way they had the same potential if Anakin's was the greatest.

Sure, Luke's may have been close, but it's illogical for them to be the same.

I meant close, my mistake, somehow I stayed on topic of Luke being what Anakin was supposed to be, forgive my A.D.D. Either way it contradicts IKC's nonsense about Luke's potential not being enough to beat Sidious.

Let me expand a bit on what you said, if it's ok, Nai:
Luke, without any Vong sense manages to affect Vong...with the Force.

He defeated Executor Sedriss with a flick of his wrist...and Executor Sedriss was shown to match Ood Bnar for power moments later when they destroyed eachother.

He killed Lomi Plo, and bested Raynar Thul...and Lomi was only fighting with...the entire power of the entirety of the Kiliks, with the whole hive mind thing?

Not only was Jerec PT trained, he was a skilled master and Jocasta Nu's ex-padawan, herself a former council member. Not only that, Luke demolished Lumiya and Shadowspawn on seperate occasions, both fighting him-confirmed in Lumiya's case, suspected in Shadow's case- Ancient Sith stuff.

And despite what anyone says about size only mattering in your mind, Luke's apparently managed to overcome THAT weakness.

Damn good post though, Nai.

I agree, Nai's posts are more descriptive than mine will ever be. Either way Luke takes this.

Nice job spending half your post on an irrelevant misdirection and proving you don't understand the definition of "potential" either, Nai.

Point: Leia, Luke, and unborn Anakin had to use their full potential to defeat Sidious. Understand what that means? They used what power they could have realized to its fullest. In other words, they could never exert more power.

Given that, no matter how much training and knowledge Luke has achieved by DN, it doesn't matter - his full potential alone is not enough to defeat Sidious.



Chu'unthor - Any living, breathing instructors of lightsaber combat aboard? I thought not. I can learn to fight with a sword from a book, too. Doesn't make me any good. I can learn to fight with a bunch of other neophytes too. Say I kick the shit out of them - does that make me a god of combat? Thought not.

Jedi holocrons - Unless they projected living instructors of the weapon (oh, and you'd have to prove what the holocrons contained, by the way. Saying "zOMG HE HAD HOLOCRONS" is not an argument) your point is rather moot.

Ossus - Yeah. "Parts of the library" that got fried by a supernova. "Parts of the library" that was, in its prime, so enormous that the frenzied efforts of hundreds of Jedi to rescue the precious knowledge therein "wasn't enough." Oh, you also run into the problem of proving what he learned from it, again.

Killing the Vong - Again, you only mark this as impressive because other so-called "Jedi" got their shit ruined by them. You've still failed to establish that real (i.e. PT and earlier) Jedi would have similar results.



Okay, let's go down the list then!



Tooled? He tooled Jerec? Yeah. That isn't biased language.

Yeah. That somehow means that Kyle "I found a lightsaber in a garage and that makes me a Jedi!" Katarn is great, rather than that Jerec sucked ass.



Oh, right, the same Mara Jade that lost her already-weak Force senses after the Emperor died? The same Mara Jade that was trained as an assassin who rather than a full-fledged lightsaber duelist (indeed, often using other weapons than a lightsaber)? Yeah. She's a shining star of Old Jedi Order combat skills.



Oh, you mean the Kam Solusar who "lacked formal training" under the Old Jedi Order, ran away for thirty years, then came back and was captured and converted by Sedriss? Yeah. Because he had a lot of formal training under Palpatine, I'll tell you that right now! You're not just hocking some unestablished bullshit!

Oh, didn't you say Kam was trained under Sidious and Vader? How, may I ask, was Kam trained if Vader was dead by the time he returned to the galaxy proper?



Again, what lightsaber combat was she teaching, hm? I seem to recall her giving her own weapon away. Looks like you're still not establishing a damned thing.



Not surprising inasmuch as he trained them all (minus a handful who have about as much or less experience than he does).



Hm. Insofar as I can see, neither of them are PT Jedi. Still don't see you establishing dick about Skywalker's lightsaber abilities.

IKC, two things are clear.
1. You dislike Luke
2. You don't know dick about DE, because you either didn't read them or didn't pay attention, and you're just going from other people's arguments because it diminishes Luke's character. .. This is why you get angry at such words as "tooled" or "curbstomped" when it deals with Skywalker, because it might somehow elevate the character to a position you dislike. I'm not going to repost what I said about Luke because you haven't read DE, nor understand anything GL said, so I'm not about to explain to you how ridiculous you sound.. On the other hand I am looking forward to the Logical fallacy lesson you will present in the next post.

tdtd, one thing is clear:

I could say absolutely anything and nine times out of ten you will disagree with it and not provide any reasoning. Piss off, troll.

Which logical fallacy would that be? The one where you make ridiculous claims with no basis whatsoever? Or where you can't admit that you know nothing about what you're trying to argue, that you hang on other people's arguments because again, you don't like Luke and the arguments diminish his character? Thanks for your opinion IKC, as to the troll comment which has no bearing on this thread whatsoever, I'll think about it pimpin

Originally posted by IKC
tdtd, one thing is clear:

I could say absolutely anything and nine times out of ten you will disagree with it and not provide any reasoning. Piss off, troll.
WTF! you know he and you are aloud to have your own opinions, plus who cares, oh and a troll, dude what the hell?

Luke holds off Malak and Kyp and then Sids summons a Force storm and it over

I think it'd qualify as the burden of proof fallacy.

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
WTF! you know he and you are aloud to have your own opinions, plus who cares, oh and a troll, dude what the hell?

This personal attack is used when one has nothing intelligent to contribute to the thread and is looking to satisfy his own need to have the last word.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
I think it'd qualify as the burden of proof fallacy.


Thank you Sama, I don't know who you are but you're posts have been quite useful since you came.

ahh like a noobish comeback, i remember those days....(recalls august of this last year) o well that was then this is now

Not so much as noobish, but anger and insecurity do play some role.

right, well have you read my anciet fights against Janus, i sware we were rivals from the get go.....but i try not to fight anymore...but the time does come when i may have to step in a shun an idiot much liek you just saw( i hated grammar all my life)

Janus is a cool guy though, who doesn't get angry about any of these arbitrary posts.

yeah but i did, i cant say i dont repsect the guy, but im not sucking up to him at a moments notice

When it's said and done, this is just an educational and fun/fictional forum for anybody who is bored and wants to learn to either debate, or gain more Star Wars EU knowledge..Nothing more.. It's not like we pick up chicks here... Yet...

well... some chick offered me candy to run down to a park with her(hahahahahahahahahahah, i do to many sexual jokes....)

LOL... I like this thread so let us get back on topic before Rex closes another thread for sheer stupidity.

Rahhh rex... youre cruel...to umm ..stuff

Yeeeeah, back on topic...

okay
rex dont close the thread all give you all my darside points to not close thread....lightside points?

...back on topic.

ok.. As always, Luke takes this with relative difficulty, unless of course Sidious gets his force storm to work, in which he'll need to distance himself from Luke and the other two, meaning Luke would tool the two easily and then get swept up in the force storm. Then again if Luke does the distance, he can do some weird black hole manipulation, or fling all 3 to a nearby star.

Luke is uber woot, he's the son of the chosen one durka durka!!

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
right, well have you read my anciet fights against Janus, i sware we were rivals from the get go.....but i try not to fight anymore...but the time does come when i may have to step in a shun an idiot much liek you just saw( i hated grammar all my life)

I myself have battled him many times, friend. The battle is never quite over is it ? However, that is the way of things. Its the way of the force.

Luke and Sids Saber Rape the latter

here we go again hide the thread from jolly...oops i wasnt 'sposed to say that eherm, good gosh there mate wat the bloody hell were you thinking posthing the foul word "rapage"

What the hell are you guys talking about? Back on topic k thx bye.

wow tdtd what are you smoking, well sids and uhh what is this thread about again?

curse you jolly

Magical Fairies and cute little puppies..

haha, you take the fun out of raping

back on topic --->

*sighs*

Whatcha sighing at thunder?

well im no use i hate kreia and im heading to the yodavs kreia to support my little green friend(sids voice)

Originally posted by tdtd
Whatcha sighing at thunder?
Thunder?

You rang?

WHAT!!!
oh kreia hm... yeah in kotor i owned her and i am by far the worst kotor player here, cause i beat it in two weeks(both games) and i think Janus beat all two of them in half an hour? maybe? .....you know its just easier if i shut up

agreed

Originally posted by IKC
Nice job spending half your post on an irrelevant misdirection and proving you don't understand the definition of "potential" either, Nai.

Point: Leia, Luke, and unborn Anakin had to use their full potential to defeat Sidious. Understand what that means? They used what power they could have realized to its fullest. In other words, they could never exert more power.

Given that, no matter how much training and knowledge Luke has achieved by DN, it doesn't matter - his full potential alone is not enough to defeat Sidious.

No. The point is that the word "potential" doesn't appear in the DE comics. What is there is Luke saying that Leia should join her Jedi power to his. Since when does "actual power" equal "potential" ? People can only use the part of their potential that they can control. Anything else doesn't make sense.



Ah, great. So you can only learn how to use a lightsaber by living and breathing instructors ? I wonder how Nomi Sunrider was able to pick up a lightsaber and handle the weapon like a master instantly - without prior combat experience and without any training. And how was she able to use that weapon later on with only weeks of training ?



Oh wait. Jedi Holocrons just contain the interactive, holographic recreation of the Jedi Master who did create them. What is the difference between learning from the interactive image of a Jedi or the living Jedi ? That you can't practice swordfighting against them ?



And you have forgotten "parts of the library" that were considered to be lost by the PT Jedi order. What exactly Luke found there ? Does that matter ?



Lmao. What would PT or ancient Jedi would have done against force immune creatures with lightsaber resistant weapons and armor ? Try to use the force against them and...fail ? Try to use their lightsabers on them and...fail again ?

And what are Luke's students ? "Unreal Jedi" ? You're talking about the people who have proven themselves able to destroy ancient Sith war beasts (Leviathan), deal with Exar Kun's spirit and entire armies of Dark Siders (Shadow Academy, Disciples of Ragnos) ?



Great logic again. So for some reason, a trained PT Jedi Master who later joined the Emperor and read his Dark Side Compendium "sucks ass" because he was defeated by someone who didn't have actual training ? Vice versa Nomi Sunrider is allowed to pick up a lightsaber and go and destroy people, handling the weapon like a master without any prior combat experience where Kyle Katarn - who is just one of the best mercenaries in the Galaxy - isn't allowed to do so ?



"Already weak force senses" ? Great. I wonder how this weak Mara, that was just trained by Sidious from infancy on, was able to defeat Lumiya (a dark side adept trained by Vader) in a lightsaber duel, kill Luuke and Joruus and defeat a Dark Side Kyle Katarn in a lightsaber fight. Because she has no skill with a lightsaber anyway and next to zero force powers ?



Oh no. Kam Solusar who's father was a PT Jedi that trained him before getting slain by Vader ? The same Kam that was able to escape Vader and his Jedi killsquads for more than a decade ?



Oh really ? Kam Solusar was starting his training in the first years of the Jedi Purge meaning he had almost two 3 decades of force using experience by DE. Mara Jade was trained from infancy on by the Emperor so she had more then a decade experience when Luke met her for the first time.
And Kyle Katarn was the lightsaber instructor of the order, not Luke. So he trained all the people. And since when do students have a constant inability to overcome their masters in terms of fighting ? Didn't Kun defeat Vodo ? Didn't Mace become better than his former lightsaber instructors ?



Oh lets see.
After 6 months of training, Luke was able to defend himself properly against Vader who destroyed nice amounts of PT Jedi. In DE he outduels Sidious with a lightsaber. Yet somehow his lightsaber and force skills can't have improved in 20-30 years of time despite the fact that he constantly found himself in combat situations ranging from duels to full scale wars.
No apparently all people Luke faced must have been total weaklings - even when they are the best warriors of a species which conquered an entire Galaxy, could kill entire groups of Noghri in hand-to-hand combat and withstand attacks by Mandalorians.

And of course Luke's Jedi must suck too, because...oh my...because of what ? Because they had more training then most people we see in the TOTJ comics (by DN) ? Because they had a knowledge base using PT Jedi knowledge, Sith knowledge, Ancient Jedi knowledge as well as knowledge from other Force using orders (like the Fallanassi, the Aing-Ti Monks, the Jensaarai and so on) ? Not even mentioning that the entire NJO grew in a time of constant battles and while such time periods turn anybody into great combatants this can't be true for the NJO Jedi ?

Great reasoning.

Hell, not only that, Sedriss killed two other Dark Side elites without any trouble whatsoever and managed to match Ood Bnar in a force duel.

And yes, Nai is right: Kyle kills a trained, Jedi Master level Dark Jedi at his peak of power who's the Padawan of an ex-council member, no less.

And Mara's 'weak' senses were enough to feel Palpatine across the galaxy.

And say what you want about Kun, but Luke's students hooked him, line and sinker. Even before he assaulted them, he was backing away from Streen and Kirana. These unreal Jedi cornered the Dark Lord. Luke even saw how desperate he was at that point.

And while I'm on Kun, did he have a Sith master physically tutoring him? The only guy who might have Kun obliterated before he started studying Sadow's texts

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And while I'm on Kun, did he have a Sith master physically tutoring him? The only guy who might have Kun obliterated before he started studying Sadow's texts

The difference between Kun and Luke is that Kun actually had, assumingly, several years of formal training, even if it was as a Jedi. We see him go a couple bouts, and take instruction from Vodo. And, he also had Nadd to help him understand the gaunlets in the first place.

Not that it matters how you get taught, as long as you learn and become powerful, which Luke did anyways.

Good post Nai, some people just don't bother opening the comics before downplaying a character.

Also I did have a thought. We see Kun's blasts twice I believe. One that increase 100,000 which destroyed a wall, and one that just pushed over Aleema. I wonder if Kun has to be exponentially angry for his amulet to have any effect on a powerful force user.

Originally posted by tdtd
Also I did have a thought. We see Kun's blasts twice I believe. One that increase 100,000 which destroyed a wall, and one that just pushed over Aleema.

The blasts look completely different, and most likely are different. One has a red glow IIRC, one has a blue glow.



Why would he need to be? The amulet is powered by "the dark rage that fills Kun's heart", and Kun, like any Sith, always has a dark rage inside of them.

Yea but we see his rage has to be quantified beyond belief to make the effects it did. And his blast on Aleema could be considered the same attack on a lesser scale. I don't know whether it's the author's mistake of changing colors, or a different attack. I find it hard to imagine the amulet has different kinds of attacks, unless he was using the other hand, which I don't think he was since he didn't find/develop a second amulet til DLOTS

tdtd, you critise IKC for downplaying Luke, however i don't think you deserve that right.

Because IKC favours Kun, you do whatever it takes to downplay him. Oh until Nai showed up and gave some excellent points, you didn't make much sense at all.

IF you read my posts, you'd see they aren't as descriptive as Nai's, but they say the same thing. I even said Nai is better at this than me but I get my point across regardless. And no, I don't try to downplay Kun, because if you notice in most threads my logic favors Kun, while IKC does whatever it takes to downplay Luke. If you think I'm "speculating", search various threads.

tdtd, i dont have the time to search a million threads where you are generally pwned.

Last time i saw you arguing, you were saying the At At blasts = Amulet Blasts

On most other occasions, when its just you arguing, IKC and Sama make far more convincing arguments. Nai however being a notable debator obviously is able to give the debate a shake.

I've got to agree with you on your second point. Going into a debate with IKC regarding Kun is a losing battle.

Originally posted by Deception
tdtd, i dont have the time to search a million threads where you are generally pwned.

Last time i saw you arguing, you were saying the At At blasts = Amulet Blasts

On most other occasions, when its just you arguing, IKC and Sama make far more convincing arguments. Nai however being a notable debator obviously is able to give the debate a shake.

Yea generally pwned.. Way to make an unfounded assumption, you're a master debater! Next, nowhere did I ever say AT-AT Blasts= AMulet blasts, nice making up shit. Next, I believe I obviously won this past debate with you know who, and if you read the whole thread you'd see that. If I want to argue with IKC I will, but I don't need you riding his nuts. And yes, Sama gave a good argument, and Nai provided an even better one for Luke because that's what he does. But telling me I haven't, ESPECIALLY in this thread, when I argue with people that dislike Luke, haven't read the comics, and ride other people's arguments, is just proposterous.. Thanks for your time.

How about no? Now im not the one saying im any good at arguing, because i'll admit im not.

Yet you cling onto your beliefs like a 5 year old child. Honestly in this thread IKC has generally made a much better and more thoroughly logic argument then you.

The only thing is, he might be wrong about Luke's potential thus wrong about the fact that Sidious > Luke.

You seriously need to understand the word potential, IKC was correct with the fact if it required the combined potential of Anakin, Luke and Leia then its quite obvious no matter how much Luke realises his potential it will not be sufficient to take down Sidious.

The only question is, did it actually require the force potential of all 3?

Oh you were the one who said Luke is going to block Kun's Amulet blasts based on the fact he can block At At blasts, by saying that your effectively saying the Amulet Blasts and At At blasts are the same thing, unless you are completely ignorant to what you imply.

Lets see. In every argument that has gone between you and IKC, its always someone else that bails you out, you are never to able to actually out debate IKC with logic.

tdtd, honestly i don't care what you think, im only trying to make you see sense, you have not won this debate, this debate was generally in IKC and Sama's favour until Nai came in and actually gave us logical points.

Finally, i do not dislike Luke, nor do i downplay his abilites, in all honesty i rarely argue because im not as competent as those who make arguments for the characters i generally support.