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Ha! Knew the little wig wearing cry-baby would re-emerge as CN.

Anyways on to the fight itself:

Raiden(Cyborg Ninja) vs Gray Fox(Cyborg Ninja)

Fox is berserk and out to kill Solid Snake. No knowledge about how he survived the MGS ordeal. Most likely cloned. He plans to kill Snake and then himself. Raiden has sworn to protect Snake and will not allow Fox to fulfill his plans. They battle in the middle east setting of MGS4.

I go for Raiden.

PS - If anyone wants to watch the 15 min. trailer of MGS4 check it out in youtube, IGN or gamstop.

I can't judge since I have no idea what Ninja Raiden is capable of.

I was just going to say that

He looked sick in that trailer!!! but I didn't play the game so I can't say what he does really but BAH, if the real CN was in it he would whoop his ass!! don't let the graphics fool you!!!, if the real one lived to the future he would have the tech as well.

F!@K people, i just watched that trailer. Do you honostly believe that'll gonna happen in MGS4?! Old Snake kills himself. Meryl is supposed to be dead by now.

No she is not, that was if you didn't survive the torture, if you did, she makes it out fine, Snake just "grew tired of tomboys".

About the fight, we have no idea how durable Raiden's suit is, or how much more/less skill he's got than Fox. But it's fun anyway.
To judge the battle Raiden seems to have a little more skill but little less speed, I'm not sure.....

Originally posted by kamikz
No she is not, that was if you didn't survive the torture, if you did, she makes it out fine, Snake just "grew tired of tomboys".

About the fight, we have no idea how durable Raiden's suit is, or how much more/less skill he's got than Fox. But it's fun anyway.
To judge the battle Raiden seems to have a little more skill but little less speed, I'm not sure.....

Hold a sec. In MGS there were two endings. In first dies Meryl, Otacon survives. In second Otacon dies, Meryl survives. Since Otacon was in MGS2 I assume Meryl is dead.

No, Otacon survived both and Konami has said that the ending where Meryl survives is the real ending.

But i remember that if Meryl survives, Otacon tells Snake that he wanna stay with Wolf and staff like that and dies in explosion.

Wolf is dead at that point. And yes, Otacon said he'd stay cause he had no chance of escaping and the pace was going to blow, BUT, if you watch the ending the Colonel calls and tells you that the air strike has been cancelled, so Otacon never dies. Snake tells them to bring him out...
In MGS 2, Snake grew tired of "tomboys" and left Meryl...

cool... Well i think that Raiden using more strenght in his strikes (i dont know) but! Fox seems to be a lot times faster...

Ill say fox by now

Judging by the trailer, Raiden doesn't seem to quite have the style that Olga or Fox did. I say Fox.

Style does not mean anything in a life or death situation. In my opinion from what we've seen of Raiden in the trailer he is a force to be respected. Stated by Kojima he was an equal to Solid Snake in Sons of Liberty, and now he is even better. I have no doubt his exo-skelleton is superior technology wise to Fox's--granted that was a prototype. Even without the suit Raiden was dangerous. The suit's inclusion should give him the edge to take down a foe as dangerous as Fox.

However this is all speculation from what I've seen in the trailer, and it isn't much. There is a chance that scene may not ever take place in the game, so who knows.

Raiden equel to Snake?? He wish!

Show me the link where it says "equal to Solid Snake in Sons of Liberty" in fighting. I've seen that, but that has been because they were both equal "heroes", it didn't say fighters. Where did it say that?


There are a few things we need to know first.

1. Can Raiden see invisible people?
2. Can Raiden stand up to Fox fast moving arms in a sword fight? (I don't think so)

So true, besides it seem that Snake has somekind of enhanced sixth sence. I'm talking about moments where he dodged Ocelot's shot from the back and Olga's knife trick.

I mean, Snake as a rookie was as impressive (if not more impressive) than Raiden.

Defeated/sneaked-through a whole base (that without near any help), defeated the best solider ever in unarmed combat and when Snake was unarmed while Big Boss had a machine gun, defeated Fox in unarmed combat, defeated the worlds fastest man, the worlds strongest man and more..... This is Snake with several years more experience, I don't think Raiden matches up at all.....

ok back to fox. If you look on fox when he is fighting, you will have a hard time to see his hand moving. While raiden fighting, you can follow his moves KINDA easy.

And you have no prof that its a prototype, because raidens armor do really look older than fox (dont say it have to be). Well, fox armor got a stealth belt doesnt it?, than raiden wouldnt be able to see fox

This thread should be dropped, we know jack-shit about the new Raiden, and we can't start assuming that he can do that and that.....

alright.... but it was a funny thread

I do not believe Raiden to be an equal to Snake in Sons of Liberty. However that is what Kojima the man himself stated, and henceforth it is canon. I don't have the time to look up that old interview right now, but maybe later when I have nothing else to do I'll go look it up.
It's true Snake has a more impressive resume, but Raiden is no pushoever. Handpicked by Solidus himself and trained to kill since he was a child. Later molded and adopted to simulate Solid Snake. Again I do not really think they are equals, but given Raiden's performance in the Big Shell I can see why Raiden could be considered equal. Equal heroes? Raiden was just being a puppet, he was no hero at all. If anything Snake is the only hero in MGS2 by willingly getting in all that mess just to mess with the new Metal Gear and gather info on the patriots.

I meant Fox's exo-skelleton was the prototype, not Raiden's. Besides do you really believe Raiden would use a watered down, older version of Fox's exo-skelleton. I think not. Who's to say Raiden won't have Thermal vision in his helmet :P

All right we know nothing about Raiden's new capabilities, but it's fun to argue for the sake of arguing.

I have read a similar, and that said they were both equal characters and heroes, that does not mean fighting skills. And this was, as you said, only in Sons of Liberty, where Raiden has a main character part. He did indeed do as much as Snake, even more than Snake did on the Shell.
And Raiden is trained to be like Solid Snake, Snake IS Solid Snake....


And of course he is a hero, he destroyed the thing, and Snake said himself that he was no hero either, "there are no heroes in war". And since when can you only become a hero when you choose it yourself? Raiden did come back to fighting for the future, he did what he was told and tried to help people that weren't even involved in the mission. He was a hero....
That is what i belive....


I agree that Raiden's is newer, but do we know who made it? From what we know, someone with lesser calibur could have made it, so we cannot decide.... Fox exo was better than Olgas IMO.

Olga didn't really do much with her suit. Hell she decided to face Solidus with just a handgun. Damned girl had a death wish.

Edit: Not only Solidus, but the Metal Gear Rays as well.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Olga didn't really do much with her suit. Hell she decided to face Solidus with just a handgun. Damned girl had a death wish.

Edit: Not only Solidus, but the Metal Gear Rays as well.

Remember that scene with hostages? She almost cut Liquid's arm and diflected some shots.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Olga didn't really do much with her suit. Hell she decided to face Solidus with just a handgun. Damned girl had a death wish.

Edit: Not only Solidus, but the Metal Gear Rays as well.

She fought in the hostage room, and her suit did not seem to inhance her abilities THAT much IMO. I mean, she made a really fast and high jump when Raiden snuck up on her the first time, she didn't do anything spectacular with her ninja suit either....

What do you mean? "Not only Solidus, but the Metal Gear Rays as well". What was that an answere too? (Lol, sorry, I don't remember)

YEAH!

That's why I said Olga did close to nothing with the Ninja suit. Perhaps she was a moron. I mean...seriously who in his/her right mind would face Solidus Snake and an army of Metal Gear Rays with a handgun when you have that exo-skelleton.

I meant that the moment she decided to reveal her treason she stepped in right before Ray stomped lil Raiden. If you ask me she got lucky Solidus didn't have the Rays play baseball with her.

Fox by far , the clothes may maketh the man . But when your opponent can move much faster then you and has enough motor skills to turn anything he attacks into dog food.

Raiden's screwed.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
That's why I said Olga did close to nothing with the Ninja suit. Perhaps she was a moron. I mean...seriously who in his/her right mind would face Solidus Snake and an army of Metal Gear Rays with a handgun when you have that exo-skelleton.

I meant that the moment she decided to reveal her treason she stepped in right before Ray stomped lil Raiden. If you ask me she got lucky Solidus didn't have the Rays play baseball with her.

Remeber? "If you die, my child dies" I believe she hadn't enough time to put on her ninja suit because Raiden was getting crushed in a moment. She had to face Solidus and Rays to save her child. And you call her a morron? You mean you wouldn't have done the same if it was your child?

Originally posted by Sam Z
Remeber? "If you die, my child dies" I believe she hadn't enough time to put on her ninja suit because Raiden was getting crushed in a moment. She had to face Solidus and Rays to save her child. And you call her a morron? You mean you wouldn't have done the same if it was your child?

It's common sense though , you have a much higher chance of saving said child when equipped with a ninja suit.

Originally posted by grey fox
It's common sense though , you have a much higher chance of saving said child when equipped with a ninja suit.

But you ain't gonna run into the dressingroom to change when Huge Robotank is going to step on Raiden.

Exactly, she even gave her sword to Raiden. And Olga said she would stay hidden, but she must have seen Raiden was in trouble and hurried there as fast as she could....

Trust me if my son depended on someone else's life I would wear the suit non-stop in order to keep that person alive, even if it means blowing my cover. Besdies she did have plenty of time to put on the exo-skelleton. The chances of surviving an encounter like that with a handgun are slim at best. Either she wasn't really thinking how she could keep him alive more effectively, or she just wanted to die.

Play the sequence again. "Olga wanted you to have this, besides, I'm no fan of blades". Olga gave it to Snake who in turn gave it to Raiden.

Yeah thats right ;D

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Trust me if my son depended on someone else's life I would wear the suit non-stop in order to keep that person alive, even if it means blowing my cover. Besdies she did have plenty of time to put on the exo-skelleton. The chances of surviving an encounter like that with a handgun are slim at best. Either she wasn't really thinking how she could keep him alive more effectively, or she just wanted to die.

If she blew her cover she could no longer keep an eye on Raiden, so she didn't wore the suit for all the time for a serious reason. And when Raiden was attacked by Rays she hadn't really enough time. I doubt she keeps that suit in her pocket.

Exo suit in pocket?

Originally posted by Kaithen
Exo suit in pocket?

It wasn't serious...

She did have time. Raiden was running around naked and sneaking around. Then he had to wait quite a while for Snake to show up and hand him his equipment. He also put his suit on as well. Then Snake and Raiden start fighting the Arsenal Tengus, and encounter Fortune. Afterwards Raiden starts fighting the Metal Gears until he gives up and she finally shows up.

Then again she might have caught the Sazaki syndrome and spent too much time in the toilet while all of that took place.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
She did have time. Raiden was running around naked and sneaking around. Then he had to wait quite a while for Snake to show up and hand him his equipment. He also put his suit on as well. Then Snake and Raiden start fighting the Arsenal Tengus, and encounter Fortune. Afterwards Raiden starts fighting the Metal Gears until he gives up and she finally shows up.

Then again she might have caught the Sazaki syndrome and spent too much time in the toilet while all of that took place.

I don't think she has been watching Raiden all the time he was walking around naked and fighting ninjas, she new Snake would take care of him, but as soon as she realised that he is in a big danger she appeared instantly, so she hadn't time to change. Hell, that makes no sense! If she had time to put on an armored suit she'd certanly did it, but she just couldn't.

Kamik by the way I realized it was her who gave the hf blade to Snake so he could give it to him. That's why I edited my post. Sorry you didn't catch it before you replied. :P

Wouldn't the best way to stay hidden be possible with the Stealth Camo? Exactly. So what was she doing during all that time, playing strippoker with Liquid Ocelot? If she appeared instantly that means she was actually paying close attention to Raiden's moves, don't you think?

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Kamik by the way I realized it was her who gave the hf blade to Snake so he could give it to him. That's why I edited my post. Sorry you didn't catch it before you replied. :P

Wouldn't the best way to stay hidden be possible with the Stealth Camo? Exactly. So what was she doing during all that time, playing strippoker with Liquid Ocelot? If she appeared instantly that means she was actually paying close attention to Raiden's moves, don't you think?

Well yeah, it might be possible but stealth camo proved many times that it works horribly bad. Besides Olga can't just dissapear for a long time. Everyone would start to suspect her and she would never showed on the roof of Arsenal unless her child was in danger because she didn't wanted to be suspected.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Kamik by the way I realized it was her who gave the hf blade to Snake so he could give it to him. That's why I edited my post. Sorry you didn't catch it before you replied. :P

Wouldn't the best way to stay hidden be possible with the Stealth Camo? Exactly. So what was she doing during all that time, playing strippoker with Liquid Ocelot? If she appeared instantly that means she was actually paying close attention to Raiden's moves, don't you think?

Did Olga even have stealth camo? I don't remember that she had any.... And she would go undercover as always, they still thought of her as one of their own...

If Gray Fox's prototype had Camo what would stop that from being part of Olga's suit? Besides she did came out of no where when Snake switched sides in order to get aboard Arsenal Gear.

Edit: True they thought of her as one of their own, but they never trust in her.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
If Gray Fox's prototype had Camo what would stop that from being part of Olga's suit? Besides she did came out of no where when Snake switched sides in order to get aboard Arsenal Gear.

Edit: True they thought of her as one of their own, but they never trust in her.

She did it even without the suit on arsenal so I don't think it was stealth camo.

Noone there trusted anyone but still they needed each other so Olga had no need to blow her cover.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
If Gray Fox's prototype had Camo what would stop that from being part of Olga's suit? Besides she did came out of no where when Snake switched sides in order to get aboard Arsenal Gear.

Edit: True they thought of her as one of their own, but they never trust in her.

That's exactly my point, just because it is newer doesn't mean it got everything an older got....

Still, it was a cover, I mean, she owned most of the troops there...

Right, but I am quite sure Olga in the Ninja suit had the camo on before Snake told her to reveal herself. Too bad I no longer have a PS2.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Right, but I am quite sure Olga in the Ninja suit had the camo on before Snake told her to reveal herself. Too bad I no longer have a PS2.

May be, but it seemed she was hiding somewhere above them.

Indeed, she was sitting in the roof, if she did have stealth then she would stand beside them. Snake also met Olga while she was in the suit, she didn't walk around invisible.

Yeah.. how do you know Fox suit is a prototype?

Because Naomi and Kenneth baker commented on it in MGS.

Funny Raiden didn't just notice her if she was sitting in the roof. Funny indeed. Either he is blind, or just stupid. Your choice.

Okey, are you always noticing a lamp in the roof. I mean, you are not alway looking for things in the roofs...

Er, not me, but Raiden is a top-notch highly trained soldier following in Snake's footsteps. If he simply didn't see her something is seriously wrong.

Does Raiden know that he gotta look in the roof all the time, to check if he can see a cyborg Ninja?

When you're in such a dangerous stealth mission you pay close attention to your surroundings in order to survie. Not to mention he has encountered the Ninja numerous times and has orders not to trust the Ninja.

Still... you do not look in the roofs all the time...

No, you cannot expect that much, he is not always right and cannot always excpect something. I have never seen any of the Metal Gear characters sneaking in a room look up in the roof ONCE. And why did not Olga walk around invisible? How come she always comes from the roof?

And did Snake check the roof for Metal Gear Geko's in MGS 4? Isen't he a more professional soldier than Raiden?

All right, I'll give up on it and accept it points towards no camo for Olga's suit. As for Snake not checking out the roof he is obviously getting old :P. I don't know about Snake being more pro than Raiden though. More experienced, yes, more professional I don't know. He probably is though.

Of course he is.

HELL YEAH!

The snake in Metal Gear Solid 2 is a completely different person than the one in Metal Gear Solid 3. For those of you that didn't know, Snake is a clone, and there are more than 2 of him. Why do you think he ages so fast? MGS2 - Solid Snake. MGS3 - Naked Snake.
As for the Raiden section, I'm sure you have all played the game now(MGS4), and know what Ninja Raiden is capable of. I'm gonna go with Raiden, all the way. He has the creativity and enough speed, let alone, he doesn't fear death and is somewhat immune to pain. His body is a machine, and he was almost unstoppable without his arms. To add, he summoned lightning, and I'm sure lightning and speed are a great counter for speed and invisibility.

I don't think Raiden would last against Fox in a straight sword duel. We only saw like small feats with Raiden in terms of speed. But with Fox, he has that whole deflect bullets while walking slowly and other various feats in TTS. That and Fox has more solid experience than Jack.

Raiden by feats is physically strong enough to tear Gray Fox in half.

Fox struggles to stop Rex's foot.

Raiden tosses Rays around physically.

Master Chief solos.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Raiden by feats is physically strong enough to tear Gray Fox in half.

Fox struggles to stop Rex's foot.

Raiden tosses Rays around physically.

I watched all the cutscenes on Youtube, and I don't remember him tossing a Ray around. He did toss around a lot of those smaller mechs.

If you're talking about the upcoming action game, I believe that's not canon for the MGS series, in the same way DBZ movies aren't canon to the manga..

If it were, obviously Raiden pwns..

fox goes invisible, slices raiden in half
/thread

What makes you think he could slice Raiden in half?

Vamp didn't have an easy time of it with Raiden's own sword.

Vamp didn't try to slice him in half. He was basically playing around the whole time.

And Raiden and Fox's swords were different. Raiden's blade edge heated up. Fox's just vibrated at hyper-fast frequencies. So while Raiden's blade basically burns through materieals, Fox's shakes things apart.

That would make Raiden's blade better for cutting though.

Regardless, Raiden is about as fast, but much stronger and more durable.

Raiden's not as fast imo. His fight with Vamp was shown to be at a pace that while fast, wasn't near what Fox could do when he really applied himself.

And while Raiden's blade could be better suited for burning through something similar to a lightsaber. Fox's would be better for just opening a continuous gaping wound until the cut was done. It's the same concept as the vibroblade in star wars.

Originally posted by KingD19
Raiden's not as fast imo. His fight with Vamp was shown to be at a pace that while fast, wasn't near what Fox could do when he really applied himself.

And while Raiden's blade could be better suited for burning through something similar to a lightsaber. Fox's would be better for just opening a continuous gaping wound until the cut was done. It's the same concept as the vibroblade in star wars. Vamp is a casual bullet-timer, hell, he was shown to be faster than Raiden in MGS2, Raiden himself could block bullets like Fox in that game. And he does the same in Rising.

Also stfu.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
fox goes invisible, slices raiden in half
/thread

Rising IS cannon.

Jack not only has extensive combat training and experience, his suit is a whole new level of technology. He would destroy FOX