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Full Power Urizen VS Full Power Spectre


Urizen- from Image, was subdued by Angela and Spawn in his extremely weakened form, however in his prime it took the combined forces of Heaven and Hell to imprison him with many casualties. He is a true immortal, there is no way he can die. He feeds off Spiritual Energy, negates souls, and becomes stronger with time.

Spectre- From DC, Wrath of God, is said to be on the level of The Living Tribunal from Marvel and even above that. It is stated by someone on this forum that he connected with all beings from the entire DC multiverse (If DC truly has a multiverse) and that his power comes from the Presence.

Who would take this, and why ?

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Ohh okay.....

Anyone have any opinions though ?????

LoL

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ohh okay.....

Anyone have any opinions though ?????

LoL
Which Spectre?

Okay I'll just put my opinion first then:

It was said that it took the combined forces of Heaven and Hell to imprison Urizen. He cannot die.

There Spectre killing him is out of the question.

Now as for Spectre being able to imprison him, where would that be ? And is that even possible?

Spectre is an agent for DC's God, he is one force of Heaven, and he is below Lucifer and Micheal.

In Image all the forces of Heaven n Hell together had to take down Urizen only to imprison him. Urizen feeds off the spiritual energy of ANY BEING around him. Angel or Demon or Mortal or Godling alike.

It's not certain whether or not Image's version of God got involved in the battle, but since ALL THE FORCES together had to stop him, I might assume that God himself had to get involved as well.

Remember, Todd McFarlane got the character Urizen from a writer and painter named William Blake. Urizen is his original mythology is meant to be God himself. Blake beleived that God was a cruel and sadistic being who created a wicked universe, which explains why human beings are so cruel and why animals eat each other.

So one can say Urizen is the evil version of GOD....

One might argue that Spectre's power and jurisdiction is multiversal and claim that this fact has to mean his power is equal to more than Urizen and/or his Image Universe.

Try to understand...Image is composed of one universe. There's no actual multiverse, possible alternate realities, but no campaign of Universes.

There is the Universe, Heaven, and Hell. This is all that Image's mythos is composed of. The God of this Universe is the supreme being and only made one universe.

Therefore when something BIG happens in Image, it's a BIG DEAL...not something that will be forgotten or disregarded like in DC or Marvel.

whose to say that Image's Universe isn't equivalent to DC's or even Marvel's "Multiverse" ?

What if Spawn's Universe was actually a lot huggerrrrrrrrrr than any of Marvel or DC's single universes ?

Shows like Asmodel would be a better match up to Urizen.

Full power Spectre IS the Presence, or be empowered by all of the Presence's powers. It would be above all. The Spectre's greatest version, the one who took on the Great Evil Beast, would also take this match.

darksaint can you tell us what comic spectre took down the great evil beast

{{Shows like Asmodel would be a better match up to Urizen.}}


Oh okay...whose Asmodel though ?




{{{Full power Spectre IS the Presence, or be empowered by all of the Presence's powers. It would be above all. The Spectre's greatest version, the one who took on the Great Evil Beast, would also take this match.}}}}


Hmmmm.....Urizen however at his full power may have been equivelent to image's GOD....I'm not stating this as fact, but as theory since an actual battle with Heaven and Hell against Urizen needed to occur to imprison him. Otherise God could have banished Urizen His/Herself.

But take this match......How? Urizen cannot die. He simply Is, the way the Presence simply IS....a being beyond Death. If you're saying he could imprison, then HOW and WHERE ?

can anyone tell me what comic the great evil beast appeared in?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{Shows like Asmodel would be a better match up to Urizen.}}


Oh okay...whose Asmodel though ?




{{{Full power Spectre IS the Presence, or be empowered by all of the Presence's powers. It would be above all. The Spectre's greatest version, the one who took on the Great Evil Beast, would also take this match.}}}}


Hmmmm.....Urizen however at his full power may have been equivelent to image's GOD....I'm not stating this as fact, but as theory since an actual battle with Heaven and Hell against Urizen needed to occur to imprison him. Otherise God could have banished Urizen His/Herself.

But take this match......How? Urizen cannot die. He simply Is, the way the Presence simply IS....a being beyond Death. If you're saying he could imprison, then HOW and WHERE ? Did God actually get involved in it though?


Without God stopping him or limiting him, and at full range of power and understanding, Spectre could probably conquer Heaven and Hell in moments with very little resistance. In fact, when Azmodel was the host, he conquered Hell in a panel or two.

{{{{{Did God actually get involved in it though?


Without God stopping him or limiting him, and at full range of power and understanding, Spectre could probably conquer Heaven and Hell in moments with very little resistance. In fact, when Azmodel was the host, he conquered Hell in a panel or two.}}}}}


It doesn't clarify in that issue with Cogliostro whether or not God got involved himself.


However, the devils in Hell fought against Urizen to contain him, so why would God not back up his Heavenly Forces ?

If God had the power to simply banish Urizen himself, then wouldn't he have avoided that war that could have destroyed the Universe he created ? Remember, Heaven and Hell in Image are extrememly powerful realms, not like the way thier represented in DC or Marvel.

If God got involved in lesser affairs like monitoring the creation of a new Redeemer, and getting held "HOSTAGE" by Spawn, then I'd bet that he was involved in the battle against Urizen.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{{{Did God actually get involved in it though?


Without God stopping him or limiting him, and at full range of power and understanding, Spectre could probably conquer Heaven and Hell in moments with very little resistance. In fact, when Azmodel was the host, he conquered Hell in a panel or two.}}}}}


It doesn't clarify in that issue with Cogliostro whether or not God got involved himself.


However, the devils in Hell fought against Urizen to contain him, so why would God not back up his Heavenly Forces ?

If God had the power to simply banish Urizen himself, then wouldn't he have avoided that war that could have destroyed the Universe he created ? Remember, Heaven and Hell in Image are extrememly powerful realms, not like the way thier represented in DC or Marvel.

If God got involved in lesser affairs like monitoring the creation of a new Redeemer, and getting held "HOSTAGE" by Spawn, then I'd bet that he was involved in the battle against Urizen. God in DC comics works in mysterious ways, and rarely, if ever, gets involved himself.

The way you're making it seem in this instance, is that God is faulty in Image, unlike in other stories/comics where everything is done with a purpose by his will.

The logic of "Why WOULDN'T God have gotten involved?" is faulty altogether.

{{God in DC comics works in mysterious ways, and rarely, if ever, gets involved himself.}}




Cool, but a bit cheesy in my opinion. He seems to indifferent and not personal enough. That whole "no one is worthy of my true presence" is too old fashioned for me.






{{{The way you're making it seem in this instance, is that God is faulty in Image, unlike in other stories/comics where everything is done with a purpose by his will.}}}}


He IS. God has numerous flaws in image, he's not even in Heaven right now. He abandoned his post and Heaven is defending itself against a horde or rebel angels while Earth is being torn apart by Armaggedom.

In fact Image Comics is the only one that stays true to the idea of FREE WILL which Marvel and DC don't. Marvel and DC make it like thier superiors made everything happen the way it was, like everything is meant to be, which is romantic, but not necessarily better or realistic than Image's version of cosmic events.



""The logic of "Why WOULDN'T God have gotten involved?" is faulty altogether."""



WHY ? People in real life ask this all the time, why God let horrible things happen. Bro, I feel you're going by this whole "God writes out your life...God has his plan and you cannot fight it "deal, what about Free Will ? what if there is no God? Are we all so bound to this idea of a Supreme Being being in total control of everything, just because our relgions have said this? Lack of imagination I think (not you but for comic writers)


In Image there are numerous forces at work here, not just God or Satan. The Man and Miracles is a total enigma in Spawn, and he is actually compelling Spawn is join forces with him AGAINST BOTH HEAVEN AND HELL...

not to mention Greenworld, the spirit of Earth and possibly the spirit of the UNIVERSE itself which doesn't welcome interference from Heaven or Hell.

DUDE in Image's mythos, Heaven and Hell are both violating the Universe' domain. It's not like DC or Marvel where we all gotta be good little boys and girls and worship God, Image is a lot more rebellious than that, and a lot more creative.

No offense to you or ne1 else, so please dont take it that way, but i get really tired of hearing "Well Spectre works for GOD..END OF STORY..you cant beat that ! POW !" what a lack of imagination of DC's part, and what a cheesy deal.

Like thier cannot be something above "God" that we don't know about? Do we even know he exists? i wanna stay on topic, i am a firm beleiver in numerous possibilities, i dont thnk things can be explained or justified THAT flatly and simply.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{God in DC comics works in mysterious ways, and rarely, if ever, gets involved himself.}}




Cool, but a bit cheesy in my opinion. He seems to indifferent and not personal enough. That whole "no one is worthy of my true presence" is too old fashioned for me.






{{{The way you're making it seem in this instance, is that God is faulty in Image, unlike in other stories/comics where everything is done with a purpose by his will.}}}}


He IS. God has numerous flaws in image, he's not even in Heaven right now. He abandoned his post and Heaven is defending itself against a horde or rebel angels while Earth is being torn apart by Armaggedom.

In fact Image Comics is the only one that stays true to the idea of FREE WILL which Marvel and DC don't. Marvel and DC make it like thier superiors made everything happen the way it was, like everything is meant to be, which is romantic, but not necessarily better or realistic than Image's version of cosmic events.



""The logic of "Why WOULDN'T God have gotten involved?" is faulty altogether."""



WHY ? People in real life ask this all the time, why God let horrible things happen. Bro, I feel you're going by this whole "God writes out your life...God has his plan and you cannot fight it "deal, what about Free Will ? what if there is no God? Are we all so bound to this idea of a Supreme Being being in total control of everything, just because our relgions have said this? Lack of imagination I think (not you but for comic writers)


In Image there are numerous forces at work here, not just God or Satan. The Man and Miracles is a total enigma in Spawn, and he is actually compelling Spawn is join forces with him AGAINST BOTH HEAVEN AND HELL...

not to mention Greenworld, the spirit of Earth and possibly the spirit of the UNIVERSE itself which doesn't welcome interference from Heaven or Hell.

DUDE in Image's mythos, Heaven and Hell are both violating the Universe' domain. It's not like DC or Marvel where we all gotta be good little boys and girls and worship God, Image is a lot more rebellious than that, and a lot more creative.

No offense to you or ne1 else, so please dont take it that way, but i get really tired of hearing "Well Spectre works for GOD..END OF STORY..you cant beat that ! POW !" what a lack of imagination of DC's part, and what a cheesy deal.

Like thier cannot be something above "God" that we don't know about? Do we even know he exists? i wanna stay on topic, i am a firm beleiver in numerous possibilities, i dont thnk things can be explained or justified THAT flatly and simply. If something was more powerful than, or above God, wouldn't that be God then? You see what I'm saying? God IS in DC, it is the sum of all. It is not a character.

Azmodel tried to challenge the Presence, stormed the throne of Heaven, and found what. . .? That it was dumb, because The Presence IS. It is not something that can be challenged or defeated or faulty. It just is.

DC and Marvel are likewise not black and white like you're trying to make them out to be, there is shades of grey as well, but The Presence IS. It's just your lack of understanding.

Free will? We have free will, but it's all by design. And the supreme, being supreme, knows that outcome before you do.
You can worship your comics, and wipe your ass with the finest threads on Earth if you want. You have that choice. Hell in DC, there's people that have made a religion around Superman.

{{{If something was more powerful than, or above God, wouldn't that be God then? You see what I'm saying? God IS in DC, it is the sum of all. It is not a character. }}}}



Not necessarily. God in DC is Yahweh, not Presence. Some DC fan told me that Presence is the force that Yahweh created, but its part of Yahweh the BEING himself. It is a Character, but hey i respect that.

I'm not suggesting DC should change its mythos. I'm just saying I don't buy into it. The philosophy there goes against my own beleifs, but hey its all personal stuff, not something i should go into.


No if something else is beyond God, it doesn't have to be God. Here we go again...this is what im saying. We are all CONDITIONED since children to beleive that there is nothing above God, so ofcourse you could only imagine that God is above anything, and nothing else.

I'm just asking open your imagination. MAYBE there is something beyond that, if it even exists...GOD...its just a word. A word we put on something we think is real, it doesn't make it so though.




{{{{Azmodel tried to challenge the Presence, stormed the throne of Heaven, and found what. . .? That it was dumb, because The Presence IS. It is not something that can be challenged or defeated or faulty. It just is.}}}}}




But again, is the Prescence God ? And even is so, okay cool....I'm not challenging DC's structure, DC can do whatever it WANTS.

All I'm telling you is that Image made its' version of God a fraud and bully, just like DAWN by Linsner had it so. There are different beleifs Juntai, you're going by ONE point of view here.




{{{{DC and Marvel are likewise not black and white like you're trying to make them out to be, there is shades of grey as well, but The Presence IS. It's just your lack of understanding.}}}}


Hey, I'm not trying to make them black or white. I think people on this thread do so when they expect everyone to accept that TOAA or Prescene or whoever is end of story. Even if that's so in the comic books, we as comic book fans and readers don't have to follow the mythology as said.

What lack of understanding ? i understand perfectly, you seem to have a limitted understanding of what's possible. it seems like you blindly accept this one supremecy, which is fine, but you don't open yourself to the possibility that there is more.



{{Free will? We have free will, but it's all by design. }}}

Free will by design is not free will at all.


{{{{And the supreme, being supreme, knows that outcome before you do.}}}}



That's Destiny, not free will. They are different things, and if the supreme being knows what's going to happen, they your life is already written out like a soap opera, and it's not true freedom. It's Destiny which contradicts Free will completely.



_{{{{You can worship your comics, and wipe your ass with the finest threads on Earth if you want. You have that choice. Hell in DC, there's people that have made a religion around Superman.}}}}


Yeah lol and its hilarious. Bro, personally, I don't worship anything. i don't feel we have to, why should we feel that we are inferior to anything, even if we are to stronger forces, we don't have to kiss anything's ass.

I think religion was created simply to justify why horrible things happen.....its not valid to me though. Sorry.

Life and treatment of people is all that matters to me, but i guess thats off subject.

I'm just trying to tell you where im coming from.

Urizen can take down, Hal Jordan Spectre, and Host-less, but the rest can easily defeat him.

The Urizen that was presented in Spawn issues #95-99 ANY Spectre can take that version of him.

We don't know Urizen's full strength, but we do know Spectre's.

We don't know if DC's Heaven and Hell is on par with Image's Heaven and Hell.

Maybe I should have not asked this, there might not be a way to tell.

BUT since you insist Spectre takes this, I'm asking you HOW ????

Spectre cannot KILL URIZEN..nobody could.

How would Spectre at full power defeat Urizen if he was at full power ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The Urizen that was presented in Spawn issues #95-99 ANY Spectre can take that version of him.

We don't know Urizen's full strength, but we do know Spectre's.

We don't know if DC's Heaven and Hell is on par with Image's Heaven and Hell.

Maybe I should have not asked this, there might not be a way to tell.

BUT since you insist Spectre takes this, I'm asking you HOW ????

Spectre cannot KILL URIZEN..nobody could.

How would Spectre at full power defeat Urizen if he was at full power ?
Urizen has small omniptency if he can give God a challenge on his throne. After this God hasnt been on this throne and it will later be explained in Spawn comics.

Originally posted by Takion
Urizen can take down, Hal Jordan Spectre, and Host-less, but the rest can easily defeat him.
Spectre Hal had some of the best if not the best feats.

{{{Urizen has small omniptency if he can give God a challenge on his throne. After this God hasnt been on this throne and it will later be explained in Spawn comics.}}}

How is his Omnipotence small if he can give God a challenge off his throne? urizen doesn't care for God's thrown, he just consumes and destroys, theres no "GOAL" really.

Can't wait to see what the explanation is.


Anyways, that's irrelevant. How would Spectre beat Urizen is what im asking, if Urizen cannot die ?

{{{Spectre Hal had some of the best if not the best feats.}}}

That's great, but again how would he beat Urizen....just give me a scenario, thats the point to my thread.

BTW, im flattered SS that you would read my threat considering you and GS think my words are "rants"

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{Spectre Hal had some of the best if not the best feats.}}}

That's great, but again how would he beat Urizen....just give me a scenario, thats the point to my thread.

BTW, im flattered SS that you would read my threat considering you and GS think my words are "rants"
Where have I said that your words are "rants"..........
I simply said that I don't bother reading your post for the simple fact that you don't use the quote feature which makes it much easier to read and also allows others to know who you're actually responding too.....

Originally posted by S.S
Spectre Hal had some of the best if not the best feats.
Yes, but he was unable to use the full potential of his power.

{{{Where have I said that your words are "rants"..........
I simply said that I don't bother reading your post for the simple fact that you don't use the quote feature which makes it much easier to read and also allows others to know who you're actually responding too.....}}}





1) Okay misunderstanding on my part.


2) How do you use the quote feature? I'm new to this site.

Right under the Report to moderator button. It says Edit Quote and ", click ".

Yead dude you really need to start using the quote feature from now on. The way you are doing it now kinda makes it hard to read your post.

Originally posted by Milkie
Yead dude you really need to start using the quote feature from now on. The way you are doing it now kinda makes it hard to read your post.



DONE DEAL

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
DONE DEAL
NICE.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
DONE DEAL

http://themot.org/gallery/d/2048-1/madeapost.jpg

Oh Sh*T LOL

Where do u get those stupid posters BTW?

I liked the "INTERNET...SErious BUSINESS" 1

A lot of different websites out there.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{{{Spectre Hal had some of the best if not the best feats.}}}

That's great, but again how would he beat Urizen....just give me a scenario, thats the point to my thread.

BTW, im flattered SS that you would read my threat considering you and GS think my words are "rants" How about.. create Urizen a new reality and trap him in it?
Erase him from existance.
Meld his being into the fabric of the universe.
Turn him into something else, like a log, and then chop the log in two, 100 times per second, for the rest of eternity.



You don't really seem to be debating about anything other than a hypothesis of what this character is capable of, to say he can beat one of the comics nigh omnipotent characters with no real facts to present is very difficult to pose an a serious debate against.

Originally posted by Juntai
How about.. create Urizen a new reality and trap him in it?
Erase him from existance.
Meld his being into the fabric of the universe.
Turn him into something else, like a log, and then chop the log in two, 100 times per second, for the rest of eternity.



You don't really seem to be debating about anything other than a hypothesis of what this character is capable of, to say he can beat one of the comics nigh omnipotent characters with no real facts to present is very difficult to pose an a serious debate against.
Urizen cant be erased from existence. He needs to be defeated by a heaven and hell being. Cog even said it.

The Spectre is a Heaven or Hell being remember? It is attached onto The Word who commands it. The Word(Logos) is God/The Presence/Yahweh in the flesh. If The Word wants Urizen to die he will die.

Originally posted by kevdude
The Spectre is a Heaven or Hell being remember? It is attached onto The Word who commands it. The Word(Logos) is God/The Presence/Yahweh in the flesh. If The Word wants Urizen to die he will die.
NO OUTSIDE HELP!! Spectre is a heavingly thing though.

No outside help??? Thats what The Spectre IS. He is The Words wrath. Oh and i was reading what about Lord Uzizen saying about Image Heaven and Hell and DC Heaven Hell. DC Heaven and Hell are very powerful realms too!

DC's Heaven and Hell got a massive beat down by Lobo... LOBO...

Originally posted by Takion
.The Spectre is a Heaven or Hell being remember? It is attached onto The Word who commands it. The Word(Logos) is God/The Presence/Yahweh in the flesh. If The Word wants Urizen to die he will die.

No he won't. Urizen cannot die, its totally impossible. If Image's God can't kill him, then how would DC's ?





Originally posted by Juntai
. How about.. create Urizen a new reality and trap him in it?
Erase him from existance.
Meld his being into the fabric of the universe.
Turn him into something else, like a log, and then chop the log in two, 100 times per second, for the rest of eternity.



You don't really seem to be debating about anything other than a hypothesis of what this character is capable of, to say he can beat one of the comics nigh omnipotent characters with no real facts to present is very difficult to pose an a serious debate against. [/QUOTE}




First off thanks for actually answering the question Juntai.

Now....my response

Erase him from Existance.....Impossible. Such a thing cannot happen to Urizen.

Meld his being into the fabric of the Universe....which is actually what Urizen was almost going to do...he FEEDS on spiritual energy, and grows stronger by the amount. There is NO ENERGY that he cannot devour, whether it be Hellish, Heavenly, or Cosmic. This wouldn't hurt Urizen, it would probably only strengthen him.

Turn him into something else like a log, then chop the log in two: I'm not sure this would even work. Whose to say Full Power Spectre can do this to a full power Urizen ? Even if he COULD do this, Urizen wouldn't be dead. I'm not certain if REALITY ALTERING abilities would work on him, otherwise the GOD of IMAGE would have done this easily, instead of having Heaven to make an alliance with Hell to engage in a battle which could have destroyed the Universe that he created.



Create a new reality and trap him in it:.....seems like the only possible solution in my opinion. However, ur right about one thing: Urizen's full capablities are uncertain, but I imagine that Urizen himself at full strength must have been God's equivelent or higher for two reasons:


1) Like I said before, instead of finishing the problem of Urizen by himself, it was absolutely necessary to have Heaven and Hell fight against Urizen together. ALL OF HEAVEN and HELL as COG said....I know the DEVILS of Hell got involved, so why would God himself have not ?

And if God did get involved in this war, what's the point if he could have easily defeated Urizen? What's the point to all the bloodshed, this war would have been like an ARMAGEDDON in itself.

COG even sed that URIZEN is the end of everything.

2) Todd McFarlane got the idea of Urizen from William Blake. According to William Blake's personal mythos AND philosophy, Urizen WAS GOD....he beleived God to be no loving father or savior. He beleived God was a creul tormenter and is the reason why human beings suffer and animals eat each other.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No he won't. Urizen cannot die, its totally impossible. If Image's God can't kill him, then how would DC's ?





Originally posted by Juntai
. How about.. create Urizen a new reality and trap him in it?
Erase him from existance.
Meld his being into the fabric of the universe.
Turn him into something else, like a log, and then chop the log in two, 100 times per second, for the rest of eternity.



You don't really seem to be debating about anything other than a hypothesis of what this character is capable of, to say he can beat one of the comics nigh omnipotent characters with no real facts to present is very difficult to pose an a serious debate against. Unless it specified he took on God, we can't simply assume he did just because Heaven and Hell got involved. God does simply get involved in every incident just because it's on high stakes like that. Because if it were all to be destroyed . . .that would be how God planned it to be. If they stopped him... that's how God planned it to be.

And if he WERE strong enough to fight God, The Devil, Heaven and Hell, and the universe itself, then it only shows a faulty God not as powerful as the one portrayed in DC, who no matter how mighty, simply IS. It is not a being or a force that can be challenged.
The Presence created creation, it created Heaven AND Hell, and everything in between, material or otherwise, it created the entire POSSIBILITY of creation.

Urizen is a character, DC's Presence, is not.

Unless it specified he took on God, we can't simply assume he did just because Heaven and Hell got involved. God does simply get involved in every incident just because it's on high stakes like that. Because if it were all to be destroyed . . .that would be how God planned it to be. If they stopped him... that's how God planned it to be.

Again just YOUR opinion and intepretation of God. "God works in mysterious ways" "What is meant to be will be" "God does not get personally involved" are ALL CLICHES, not which are proven true, all are just religously accepted. Who can speak for GOD? That's if he even truly exists.

This is not attended for offense, at all ok Juntai? But I think you and many other debators here already have a personal and religious bias about who and what God is, and not every single Comic book version of GOD has to follow that STANDARD.

Also your idea of how "That's how God planned it would be" is a DESTINY based idea, and goes against the concept of FREE WILL which both the Christian and Judaic religions teach. HUGE contradiction.

Sorry but when it comes to PERSONAL intepretations of God, I do find interest in them, but I do not recognize them as valid for argument here. Only if you can gather info from the GOD that was portrayed in the ACTUAL comic books, NOT THE GOD that you BELEIVE to be real.

And if he WERE strong enough to fight God, The Devil, Heaven and Hell, and the universe itself, then it only shows a faulty God not as powerful as the one portrayed in DC, who no matter how mighty, simply IS. It is not a being or a force that can be challenged.
The Presence created creation, it created Heaven AND Hell, and everything in between, material or otherwise, it created the entire POSSIBILITY of creation.

HOW SO? Urizen was originally created by WILLIAM BLAKE, a painter and writer. Todd McFarlane only borrowed that idea to make Spawn more interesting. The original Urizen, according the William Blake, IS GOD..like i said a million times.

If Todd adapted a similiar intepretation of Urizen, THEN YES, WE CAN SAY that a full power URIZEN is strong enough to take on IMAGE's GOD.

Like I already said in another thread, IMAGE'S GOD IS FAULTY...not in terms of POWER, but in terms of personality and maturity. GOD in IMAGE ABANDONED HIS POST IN HEAVEN...did you know that ???

So yes, for me to assume that God got involved in the fight against Urizen is justifyable. I'm not saying its FACT, im saying its severely possible.

Urizen is a character, DC's Presence, is not.


Urizen is a TIMELESS being according to Spawn/Cog, he never had a birth, so he'll never have a DEATH. HE CANNOT DIE.

Secondly, so what if DC's Presence just IS? Spiritual ENERGY JUST IS, and Urizen eats that for breakfast.

He EATS ALL KINDS OF spiritual energy, whether it be HELLISH, COSMIC or HEAVENLY.

Whose to say that Urizen at full power cannot simply ABSORB Spectre ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
And if he WERE strong enough to fight God, The Devil, Heaven and Hell, and the universe itself, then it only shows a faulty God not as powerful as the one portrayed in DC, who no matter how mighty, simply IS. It is not a being or a force that can be challenged.
The Presence created creation, it created Heaven AND Hell, and everything in between, material or otherwise, it created the entire POSSIBILITY of creation.

HOW SO? Urizen was originally created by WILLIAM BLAKE, a painter and writer. Todd McFarlane only borrowed that idea to make Spawn more interesting. The original Urizen, according the William Blake, IS GOD..like i said a million times.

If Todd adapted a similiar intepretation of Urizen, THEN YES, WE CAN SAY that a full power URIZEN is strong enough to take on IMAGE's GOD.

Like I already said in another thread, IMAGE'S GOD IS FAULTY...not in terms of POWER, but in terms of personality and maturity. GOD in IMAGE ABANDONED HIS POST IN HEAVEN...did you know that ???

So yes, for me to assume that God got involved in the fight against Urizen is justifyable. I'm not saying its FACT, im saying its severely possible. Thats your problem then, you're debating what 'may be possible' and what 'could have happened' rather than what did, which is the facts. Facts are what we use when debating.

In DC The Presence doesn't have a post in Heaven, The Presence is unseen, he's not a character, he cannot be challenged.


Todd McFarlane based all the original characters in Spawn off of people he knows, but obviously they're written differently. Whoever he imagined into Spawn obviously gained vast amounts of power, as did Violator, etc.. What William Blake wrote is irrelivent, because Todd didn't write it as part of Image contiuum,

Thats your problem then, you're debating what 'may be possible' and what 'could have happened' rather than what did, which is the facts. Facts are what we use when debating.


Dude, I have out in facts, and any "may be possible" opinion I write is BASED on the facts that I know. so they shouldn't be disregarded.

Secondly, you gave in your own intepretation of God. Is that not just opinion ?




In DC The Presence doesn't have a post in Heaven, The Presence is unseen, he's not a character, he cannot be challenged.

Yes, but Yahweh does. And he's made very familiar to the readers. So is Spectre, so we can gather what we know from these two characters, and see how they could/can't defeat Urizen.


Todd McFarlane based all the original characters in Spawn off of people he knows, but obviously they're written differently. Whoever he imagined into Spawn obviously gained vast amounts of power, as did Violator, etc.. What William Blake wrote is irrelivent, because Todd didn't write it as part of Image contiuum


He didn't completely disregard William Blake's mythos either, he only adapted it into his own mythos. COGLIOSTRO HIMSELF referred to William Blake for reference, so how is William Blake's mythos totally irrelevent?

Dude, I have out in facts, and any "may be possible" opinion I write is BASED on the facts that I know. so they shouldn't be disregarded.

Secondly, you gave in your own intepretation of God. Is that not just opinion ?


----I gave the actual interpretation of The Presence for DC. Your opinion based off facts thus far been shown to me nothing but extrapolation. You've gone above and beyond what was written.



Yes, but Yahweh does. And he's made very familiar to the readers. So is Spectre, so we can gather what we know from these two characters, and see how they could/can't defeat Urizen.

-----Yahweh is a Vertigo character, I don't recall ever seeing him in DCU.


He didn't completely disregard William Blake's mythos either, he only adapted it into his own mythos. COGLIOSTRO HIMSELF referred to William Blake for reference, so how is William Blake's mythos totally irrelevent?

------ What's written in the comics is what counts, citing non canon sources doesn't help your debate in the slighest.

I gave the actual interpretation of The Presence for DC. Your opinion based off facts thus far been shown to me nothing but extrapolation. You've gone above and beyond what was written.

I hope so. I'm just going to trust that you know enough about DC God to make those claims, I can't argue against you if you're sincerely referring to DC God, since i probly know less about him.

However, I know for a fact that DC uses the Christian/Judeo God as thier Supreme Being, which is the only reason I'm accepting your intepretation, but, not every other Supreme Being in other comic books go by that.

*If you check out my other thread "Battle of Gods" you'll see that I made descriptions for FIVE different Comic Book GODS in one of my posts, and you should feel free to add or subtract whatever info i already displayed there. : )







Yes, but Vertigo and DC are linked, and Lucifer and Micheal have interacted with Spectre. Someone has stated that Yahweh CREATED the Prescense....if all this is true, then I will refer to Yahweh and Presence together. And Yahweh is ubbber powerful btw.





You're exxagerating here I beleive. Mentioning in William's Blake's mythos is not COMPLETELY irrelevent since COGLIOSTRO mentioned Blake HIMSELF for reference, so how and why should i totally disregard Blake's theory, and who are you to claim that Todd disregarded Blak'es mythos ????? He only integrated it into his own.

Just like in the recent Spawn issues, he used the Goddess Kali, and kept her in her entirely referred Hindu mythos, he just used her to hype the Armaggeddon story.

He still stayed true to Kali's representation and power, so whose to say he disregarded Urizen's original being if he never claimed he did ?

There's really not a lot more I need to say on the subject, all your post did to me, was prove exactly what I had said about your extrapolation and non canon sources. Both of them are useless in a debate on what happens IN the comics.

Vertigo has had tie ins with DCUniverse, but it's stated by DC themselves to be not part of DC continuity. In Vertigo, Yahweh created The Presence, The Word and such as pieces of himself inside of his creation . Yahweh has never been shown in a DCUniverse comic. In Vertigo, Yahweh isn't even God anymore, Elaine is...and Elaine destroyed Hell altogether, it's entire concept actually.... but we still see Etrigan as a Demon of Hell in the DCU.

Sorry you feel that way. However, I disagree with you. I think you are completely overlooking what I'm saying. Just because you obviously cannot find my "Conclusions" in any canon comic book, doesn't mean the FACTS I've used to back up my point can't be found in the comic books themselves.

I always use facts to BACK UP and serve as BASE for my conclusive points, if you still feel my conclusive point is worthless, then feel free to just not answer it.

Vertigo has had tie ins with DCUniverse, but it's stated by DC themselves to be not part of DC continuity. In Vertigo, Yahweh created The Presence, The Word and such as pieces of himself inside of his creation . Yahweh has never been shown in a DCUniverse comic. In Vertigo, Yahweh isn't even God anymore, Elaine is...and Elaine destroyed Hell altogether, it's entire concept actually.... but we still see Etrigan as a Demon of Hell in the DCU.



Vertigo has had tie ins with DCUniverse, but it's stated by DC themselves to be not part of DC continuity. In Vertigo, Yahweh created The Presence, The Word and such as pieces of himself inside of his creation . Yahweh has never been shown in a DCUniverse comic. In Vertigo, Yahweh isn't even God anymore, Elaine is...and Elaine destroyed Hell altogether, it's entire concept actually.... but we still see Etrigan as a Demon of Hell in the DCU

Okay i stand corrected. Thanks for informing me on that topic, I have to admit that I know very little about DC and Vertigo mythos, so I appreciate when someone informs me on the subjects.

BUMP

i heard swamp thing once fought the presence when constantine unlocked his full potential anyway, the green and greenworld are similar, swampthing has total controll of the green and spawn has total controll of the green world thats how spawn defeated urizen by using nature against him.

Originally posted by Mider
i heard swamp thing once fought the presence when constantine unlocked his full potential anyway, the green and greenworld are similar, swampthing has total controll of the green and spawn has total controll of the green world thats how spawn defeated urizen by using nature against him.

Yes a Severely weakened Urizen, Mider.

I do not doubt that Spectre can beat the Urizen presented from issues #95-99.


I am asking if Urizen were at full power, and from what we KNOW of his full power:

1) He cannot die

2) It took Heaven and Hell combined to imprison him

3) His mere arrival got Heaven and Hell in a panicky frenzy

4) Greenworld wanted to stop him before he could become too strong

5) He devours spiritual energy

6) He kills free will, he kills imagination, he kills the spirit

7) Good and Evil are of no consequence to him, he need no allies, nor cares to have any

8) Even after he was imprisoned, the imprisonment within the void that both Heaven and Hell's combined forces set up, as strong as they TRIED To make it, was not strong enough. A simple spell from two minor demons was enough to allow Urizen to escape his heavenly and hellish confines, even in his most severely depowered form.

9) He can turn the purest of good souls to evil then to indifferent then to non existant

10) He can render even the most logical of minds to pure insanity.




Can Spectre still beat him from what we know, and how ?


If anyone else knows more about Urizen, that i failed to include, please let me know. Thanks.

Originally posted by Milkie
DC's Heaven and Hell got a massive beat down by Lobo... LOBO... Guess that means that Wolverine can too.

there both hella cheap, but im going with urizen because he looks hella cooler.

Originally posted by branhole
there both hella cheap, but im going with urizen because he looks hella cooler. Yeah with that cape Spectre kinda looks like an irish grim reaper

he looks like a kid at haloween, which is hella scary.

Spectre's look and feel is alright, but guys consider this:


Someone said a while back that Spectre did not want to enter the Joker's mind, because there was so much sadism and insanity that even the Spectre couldn't take it.


JUST IMAGINE the amount of sadism and insanity that exists with URIZEN's mind, when Spawn looked into Urizen's eye, Spawn screamed in fear and anguish, and swore he could NOW allow Urizen to ruin this world.


If Spectre tries to enter Urizen's mind, he'd probably be swallowed up or eliminated. Urizen's base power is the ability to devour and kill spirits...to kill FREE WILL..and to kill the imagination.


What is Spectre at heart than a spirit ? The "Spirit of Vengeance" he is still a spirit and therefore if Urizen were at his prime power, i would bet 100% that Urizen would kick Spectre's ass.

probably, he seems hela powerful.

The problem here you are trying to present an arguement not truely known and not accepting or even taking into account you could be wrong. Unforuntally that is what a theory is something that can be wrong.

Your arguement is based on the notion that God must have stepped in because it said all of heaven and hell. While there is a point there that can be true there also a point that does work against you. If Image's God himself had to step in and could not simply blink Urizen out of existence then that would mean that Image's god is not all powerful.

The biggest point you made is that Urizen was based off a phisophical arguement that god is not a good God but a mad man. This though also presents danger to your arguement in that if he an equal to God then why could he not defeat all of Heaven and Hell and devour them with no effort at all. This also raises the question of how he could be weskened because if he is an all-powerful being then he can not be weakened because as soon as he becomes un imprisioned he should instantly regain all his strength because he could immediatly feed upon the life energies of the Universe.

Next Junati was not giveing his personal view what god is but saying that in DC the notion of God id that he is Supreme and has no equal that no matter what he is and will always be and nothing can challenge that. Which via your own arguements God in Image is not such a being.

A full powered Spectre is one given all the power to do any job required and thus is basically all-powerful as well. That is where your arguements falls to pieces in that you yourself have presented Urizen as being fallauble while DC's Supreme Being is not.

This also makes your other points moot because he can not be killed by a falluable God but he can be beat and therefore seems to be subject to notions that are beyond DC's Supreme Being and therefore may be subject to other notions such as being erased from reality all together.

The problem here you are trying to present an arguement not truely known and not accepting or even taking into account you could be wrong. Unforuntally that is what a theory is something that can be wrong.


50% true, 50% untrue.

I am always open to the belief that I may be wrong, so please do not shove those words down my mouth. So far no one has convinced me that Spectre can beat Urizen....not from everything I know and understand about Urizen.

I patiently await someone's argument which can prove me wrong.




Your arguement is based on the notion that God must have stepped in because it said all of heaven and hell. While there is a point there that can be true there also a point that does work against you. If Image's God himself had to step in and could not simply blink Urizen out of existence then that would mean that Image's god is not all powerful.


Not quite. It could simply mean that full power Urizen is almost on par with Image's god. Image's god created the Image Universe, but from everything I know about the Spawn mythos, I feel I can safely imagine that Urizen was not born in Spawn's Universe. What's my biggest clue?

Urizen is a timeless being. That is fact...He can never die, but he was also never born. He always existed. Therefore, he came before Spawn's Universe did.





The biggest point you made is that Urizen was based off a phisophical arguement that god is not a good God but a mad man. This though also presents danger to your arguement in that if he an equal to God then why could he not defeat all of Heaven and Hell and devour them with no effort at all. This also raises the question of how he could be weskened because if he is an all-powerful being then he can not be weakened because as soon as he becomes un imprisioned he should instantly regain all his strength because he could immediatly feed upon the life energies of the Universe.


Urizen doesn't feed on all the energies in the Universe. Atleast not from what was said about him in the comic books. He only devous spiritual energy. Hellish of Heavenly, or universe based, he eats souls...negates them...kills imagination and free will.

God being a flawed being is not merely MY philosophy. It's already been said numerous times in the Spawn series. Not to mention that God abandoned his post in Heaven in the series. Let me assure you i never involved any personal religious bias into my comic book arguments, i am only going by the facts that the Spawn comics have revealed.

He was severely weakened from being in the Void and not having any access to spiritual energy for eons. Spectre is powered by the Presense no? What is there WAS no Presense to back up Spectre's power? Spectre would be weak as hell too, probably end up vanishing out of existance.

The same way Spectre needs his power to be backed by the Presence, Urizen needs to consume spiritual energy to regain his full strength.

However he was weakened the first time, is unsure however. That has no yet been revealed.



Next Junati was not giveing his personal view what god is but saying that in DC the notion of God id that he is Supreme and has no equal that no matter what he is and will always be and nothing can challenge that. Which via your own arguements God in Image is not such a being.


You're probably right. Image's God is a flawed being entirely, but there is nothing to prove that Image's God does not have limitless power. Nothing has proved this so far, and the argument that Image is one universe while DC is a multiverse will not convince me of anything. In Image, Spawn's prime Universe, Heaven, and Hell is all that matters. It encompasses Image's "infiniti".





A full powered Spectre is one given all the power to do any job required and thus is basically all-powerful as well. That is where your arguements falls to pieces in that you yourself have presented Urizen as being fallauble while DC's Supreme Being is not.


There is no proof that DC's being is infallible, in FACT from Vertigo's Lucifer series, Yahweh seems to have many many flaws. But who cares...that's not the point.

I am talking about mere "power", not moral perfection.


Ofcourse Urizen is fallible, but so what ? That has nothing to do with his ability to survive. It was made clear by Cogliostro himself, that not even God can kill him. Urizen was said to be "the end of everything".

Besides.....Spectre gets his power directly from the Presence. HE still needs someone else to back him up, even if he does have access to nearly infinite strength.

Urizen's full strength is unclear, and it is not yet revealed how he was defeated and weakened the first time.

His negation of the spiritual energy around him was making him stronger, and if he would have been allowed to corrupt other worlds he may have had his full strength eventually.


This also makes your other points moot because he can not be killed by a falluable God but he can be beat and therefore seems to be subject to notions that are beyond DC's Supreme Being and therefore may be subject to other notions such as being erased from reality all together.

Urizen cannot die...period.

He was never born, so he can never die. He is a being above such concepts.

He cannot be killed by a fallible God....no one ever said that Image's God isn't all powerful, however. Just because you are infallible does not make you all powerful. You CAN be one without the other.

Being erased from reality...hmmm...is a possibility.

However, you see that is what Heaven's weapons actually DO to the demons in Hell. Those weapons erase demons from existance, they become nullified. However, Spawn is immune to this.

Spawn got his ass kicked by Urizen the first time.

Urizen cannot be deleted by Heaven's weapons or any of their attempts, so how would Spectre do such a thing is all i am asking?



And one more thing: Spectre is STILL a spirit. He still consists of spiritual energy. There is no proof you can give that Spectre cannot have his soul negated or devoured or totally eliminated by a full powered Urizen.

I invite you to try though.

The biggest point you made is that Urizen was based off a phisophical arguement that god is not a good God but a mad man. This though also presents danger to your arguement in that if he an equal to God then why could he not defeat all of Heaven and Hell and devour them with no effort at all. This also raises the question of how he could be weskened because if he is an all-powerful being then he can not be weakened because as soon as he becomes un imprisioned he should instantly regain all his strength because he could immediatly feed upon the life energies of the Universe.



One more thing I forgot to mention.


Urizen was imprisoned within an ABSOLUTE VOID.....there was no spiritual or cosmic energy for Urizen to feed on while in his imprisonment.

why the hella r the posts so hella long.

Hella Hella Hella STFU MAN.

What you just said is yes you understand you can be wrong and if you are wrong then Urizen looses no matter what and that 50% of the time you are wrong.

This no way pertains to the arguement because it very well could be that Urizen is a equal to Image's God and that he wasn't created it still doesn't mean God in Image is all powerful.

I have not stated you have put your personal bias in but it is true that in Iamge God is falluable.

That there tells you he is not all powerful in that an all powerful being can not become weakened because it should always be able to possess its power it should never have to gain its power from something else.

Spectre without the backing of the presence would be powerless but there is a bit of a problem in that the spectre is a part of the Supreme being. Its all abit long and complicated but it goes like this there is the host which is a spirit and then the force or logoz if I'm not mistaken and that is an actual part of the presence. The other thing you need to understand is that the presence doesn't need anything to power it. while Urizen does.

I wasn't attacking that Image is one universe and DC is multiversal that has nothing to do with my arguement. The point I was trying to say if Image's god is all powerful then why could it not simply blink Urizen out of existence an all powerful being should be able to do this. If your arguement is that Urizen is all powerful then he could not exist in a depowered form because he would be his own power source and not need the creation of God to sustain him.

Vertigo is not cannon in DC. The point is simple in that DC's being is supreme to all others in that no one can challenge it. It always is and always was you can never overcome. It is all powerful that is how DC portrays it's supreme being

If an all powerful being can not defeat an opponent that must survive off of its creation then it is not all powerful.

Urizen just by the fact his power flucuates means that he can not be all powerful because an all powerful being could never have different levels of power. Just by the fact he must drain the energies from something he had no hand in making shows that he is not all powerful because no matter what there is a limited about energy to consume and therefore his power will always reach a certain max before declining and since all powerful means literealy power without end Urizen just by his nature of power can not be it.

while you are right in that the Spectre as a host is nothing without the backing of the presence you said full-powered Spectre from the begining which means the presence will give as much power as needed to defeat ab opponent.

By your own information given Image's god is not all powerfull because if he was he would have been able to absolutly defeat Urizen and erase from his realms but you admitted he couldn't do this so therefore he isn't all pwoerful. If he isn't all pwoerful and can't do it then naturally any of his creations and their powers won't work as well.

If it wasn't being protected by the presence then at best he would devour the host spirit not the Spectre or wrath itself and that only means that the Spectre is hostless and this only means that now it doesn't have a moral bone and it will likely torture Urizen before destroying him. I mean when you do have an all powerful being backing you up it doesn't matter what the other person can do.