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well......

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
well......


It depends on where the fight is taking place. If its in the jungle, then Kar. Otherwise...Vader.

hmm...let the people decide

Vader...superior knowledge of the Dark Side, and I'd say vastly more powerful. *shrug*

Say what? Someone who managed to beat Mace losing to Vader. LOL, Kar wins.

I wonder, Mace didn't even have a lightsaber.

but that was on Haruun Kal remember? the "jungle" was the darkness that he "used" to "defeat "mace windu" woah.........

Originally posted by Razielim
I wonder, Mace didn't even have a lightsaber.
Hey, your right! And Kar was unarmed, too! Casue Mace said if he had used his lightsaber then Kar would have used his weapons, too, and Mace and Nick Rostu would both have died! What a concept!

nick is a female sex organ, cause he didnt do anything but pout over people and stuff, oh and not help mace windu at all in finding KAr vastor

Casue Mace said if he had used his lightsaber then Kar would have used his weapons, too, and Mace and Nick Rostu would both have died! What a concept!

What weapons did he possess? My memory is a bit shaky. I thought it was just a simple vibroshield. While Mace has an effing lightsaber.

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
nick is a female sex organ, cause he didnt do anything but pout over people and stuff, oh and not help mace windu at all in finding KAr vastor
Nick killed what? 2-3 Akk Guards?


Exactly. And yet Mace still said he and Nick'd die if he fought Kar in an armed battle.

Mace was aiding Nick it even says so in the book(using the force)

I thought that was because of the dozens of Akk Guards that'd go ballistic if he used a weapon.

I remember him having the opportunity to win IF he used his saber, but he chose not to.

As it'll prolly be Vader who kills Kar as is, I'm inclined to say Vader...in the jungle, Mace was also unarmed and fighting Kar on his turf

Whatever, we don't know how strong Kar is outside of the jungle, but if they fought in the jungle, Vader'd get rap-, I mean, uh, beaten.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Whatever, we don't know how strong Kar is outside of the jungle, but if they fought in the jungle, Vader'd get rap-, I mean, uh, beaten. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!(jolly jimbo)

Kar takes this. Although I think he is physically weaker, he's much faster and will be able to defeat Vader.

This is the same Vader who was able to keep pace with....five or so Jedi masters at once?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is the same Vader who was able to keep pace with....five or so Jedi masters at once?

When...?

Purge. Vader is hardly as slow as some seem to think

The movies, aka highest level of canon, show him as slow. Hence, he's slow. I haven't read Purge, so I don't know about that, but from the movies, aka highest level of canon, Kar would take him.

Right, when he never had a reason to move fast. When practically toying with Luke and actually fighting without ostentacious footwork in ROTJ.

Vader's never been slow, he moves at a completely normal pace and can break it down when he needs to. And if this be by the movies, then Vader wins by existing.

WTF? Vader wins by existing? That makes no sense.

No reason to move fast? That makes no sense either. What about with Obi-wan in 4, moving fast certainly would have helped.

If we go by the highest level of canon Kar doesn't exist.

And four...slow fighting. And because Lucas had no idea what saber duels would be like from then on.

Dude, read the forum canon policy and come back when you understand it.

Sorry, try again. Lucas not knowing what saber duels would look like is not a valid excuse.

Then pick an in-universe explanation...they preferred to conserve energy, they preferred a slow fight, whatever. Vader moves fast in the EU. Therefore he can move fast. Vader moves fast when butchering accomplished Jedi masters. Therefore, he can move fast.

And the creator of Star Wars changing his mind on things? THAT'S never happened before.

We see Vader move very fast in ESB when he gets ticked off.

Good enough for me. Purge is as canon as anything else.

Prove your in-universe explanation then. Until then, it doesn't mean jack-didily.

Again, not a valid excuse.

They preferred a slow fight. Good as anything. You're clinging to this when we see Vader move faster in the next movies?

Originally posted by Razielim
We see Vader move very fast in ESB when he gets ticked off.

Good enough for me. Purge is as canon as anything else.

Maybe you should watch ESB again. He doesn't move nearly as fast as or as well as others.

You mean 'he moved without CGI'
Point's still moot as against Luke he didn't need to move fast. And since he walked away from the first fight and Obi-wan died, the point is just as moot. We still see him moving fast in the EU

Originally posted by Captain REX
Vader...superior knowledge of the Dark Side, and I'd say vastly more powerful. *shrug*

Agree I do

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You mean 'he moved without CGI'
Point's still moot as against Luke he didn't need to move fast. And since he walked away from the first fight and Obi-wan died, the point is just as moot. We still see him moving fast in the EU

It still doesn't override the movie, nor is your explanation sufficient.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
They preferred a slow fight. Good as anything. You're clinging to this when we see Vader move faster in the next movies?

PROVE your theory, not make up more BS explanations that don't mean anything.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
When...?

Conclave at Kessel

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Maybe you should watch ESB again. He doesn't move nearly as fast as or as well as others.

A) Read Purge.
B) Read Rise of Darth Vader.

I'm sure there're other comics, such as Crimson Empire, that also credit Vader's speed.

That's great. And your personal opinion will change nothing: He has been demonstrated to move extremely fast and in the EU there was never a reason for him to speed up. Did he kill Obi-wan? Did he beat Luke in eSB?

Unless he lost, proof enough. And your opinion doesn't override canon

Originally posted by Faunus
A) Read Purge.
B) Read Rise of Darth Vader.

I'm sure there're other comics, such as Crimson Empire, that also credit Vader's speed.

I have read RODV. Infact, I was probably the first guy on the forum to do so (finished it six hours after it first came out).

And they still don't override that fast that he is slow in the movies. Furthermore, Vader considered himself clumsy in RODV.

Originally posted by Faunus
A) Read Purge.
B) Read Rise of Darth Vader.

I'm sure there're other comics, such as Crimson Empire, that also credit Vader's speed.

Praise God

That's before twenty years of training when he was toying with people with flawless offense and defense. That clumsy Vader was still good enough to take on eight masters in Purge

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's great. And your personal opinion will change nothing: He has been demonstrated to move extremely fast and in the EU there was never a reason for him to speed up. Did he kill Obi-wan? Did he beat Luke in eSB?

Unless he lost, proof enough. And your opinion doesn't override canon

He got his hand chopped off in ROTJ. I call that a good reason. He won the fight with Obi-wan because Obi-wan allowed him too.

Speed aside, Kar was up there with Mace. Think Vader could top him?

Luke hits his shoulder, Vader gets pissed, jumps down, and detroys Luke's arm

Pretty damn fast. I saw the scene a few hours ago too.

EDIT: Either way, he stalemated Obi. Obi couldn't defeat him either, and gave up.

Oh, and Mace didn't duel as fast as... say Obi-Wan or Grievous. He wasn't too fast either. He relied alot on his strength.

Similar to whom?

If It was on Tatooine Yes

An unarmed Mace in the jungle, Kar's territority...and an armed, thinking Mace only needed a few seconds to beat Kar.

And that's a testament to Luke's power...and Vader being a bit reluctant to attack his son. And if Obi-wan could've beaten Vader, he'd have done so. He lost

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I have read RODV. Infact, I was probably the first guy on the forum to do so (finished it six hours after it first came out).

And they still don't override that fast that he is slow in the movies. Furthermore, Vader considered himself clumsy in RODV.

Yeah, but by the end his Force mastery (lightsaber throw accuracy, tearing up Wookie foundations) had astonished Shryne, and both he and Olee were startled by his grace and skill on Kashyyyk. Which, mind you, was enough to bring down a quoted ''swordmaster'' not even two months after RotS, as well as five Jedi Knights and an idiotic Padawan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
An unarmed Mace in the jungle, Kar's territority...and an armed, thinking Mace only needed a few seconds to beat Kar.

And that's a testament to Luke's power...and Vader being a bit reluctant to attack his son. And if Obi-wan could've beaten Vader, he'd have done so. He lost

Would Obi-wan really have done so? He was surrounded by Stormtroopers, it was a lose-lose situation.

Kar was unarmed too. It's been a long time since I've read Shatterpoint, but I remember Mace saying that he was weaker then Kar.

If you're gonna die either way, kill the Dark Lord. Obi-wan couldn't win.

Physically? Kar was younger and about twice Mace's size.

ANH novel... written by George Lucas. Kenobi would have beaten Vader if he could have.

And Kar had a vibroshield compared to Mace's lightsaber.

YES

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If you're gonna die either way, kill the Dark Lord. Obi-wan couldn't win.

Physically? Kar was younger and about twice Mace's size.

Why would he do that? Obi-wan still felt that Anakin could be saved. Killing him wouldn't allow him to be saved.

Obi-wan was of the firm beliefs of 'more machine than man'...he wanted Anakin dead and leaving him alive would be absolute stupid. and Apparently the ANH novelization makes Obi's inferiority clear

Originally posted by Razielim
ANH novel... written by George Lucas. Kenobi would have beaten Vader if he could have.

And Kar had a vibroshield compared to Mace's lightsaber.

The ANH novel was actually written by Dean Foster, but has GL's name on it. Not top canon.

Kar's vibroshield worked great against Mace's lightsaber, it should do the same here.

Novelizations are still G or at least C canon

No, he didn't. I'm sure he discovered this in RotS.

And in ROTJ, when he wants Luke to kill his father.

And in ESB, when "He's more machine than man" and he's "pure evil" IIRC.

Obi's not an idiot. Killing Darth Vader would have done wonders for the Rebellion and heavily cripple the Empire's self-esteem and image.

But he couldn't do it.

Vader Will Force Grip him

Var is force sensitive. He'll be able to shrug it off.

Who have You Known to Shrug off a Force Choke. Because Quinlan Vos Sure as Hell didn't Shrug off Dookus

Kar will shrug it off before or after he's totally unable to get any air into his lungs?

Luke could.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kar will shrug it off before or after he's totally unable to get any air into his lungs?

Long before.

But Obi Didn't What Proof have You that Kar can Shrug it off

And he'll do this...how exactly? Vader's force strength far exceeds Kar and Kar's not exactly mr. Well trained Jedi

Kar is a force user of high power. Mace stated that his potential was next to Yoda's, Force-wise he's near or on par with Vader, and far superior in melee combat.

And Anakin's potential was....off the charts?

Before Mustafar. After, he was weak.

sERIOSLY dOUBT ITS True

Originally posted by Hokage Yoda
sERIOSLY dOUBT ITS True

I don't give a **** what you seriously doubt. Just because you doubt it doesn't make it untrue.

Weak, nothing. He lost a bit, but he was still a power house

He lost half of his potential. Afterwords he had less power then Yoda.

Kar is Not as Strong as You percieve Vader will not need to choke all he needs to do is break his neck

Because having less power than freaking YODA is a detriment

Originally posted by Hokage Yoda
Kar is Not as Strong as You percieve Vader will not need to choke all he needs to do is break his neck

Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Prove up.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because having less power than freaking YODA is a detriment

It is when Kar's power was said to be on the level of Yoda's, yeah.

His potential, there's a difference

How will he resist something fully trained Force Users cannot

Originally posted by Hokage Yoda
How will he resist something fully trained Force Users cannot

He's stronger the fully trained force-users. That's how.

His potential, there's a difference

He'd already achieved enough to be up there with Mace, who defeated Sidious. Could Vader defeat Sidious as well?

If Sidious was in the Senate Arena He would own Mace

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
He's stronger the fully trained force-users. That's how.

His potential, there's a difference

He'd already achieved enough to be up there with Mace, who defeated Sidious. Could Vader defeat Sidious as well?

Mace didnt defeat Sidious. It was a game, Sidious has no respect for Mace at all. Yoda is the only one Sidious truly feared, that is self-evident from the movies.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Mace didnt defeat Sidious. It was a game, Sidious has no respect for Mace at all. Yoda is the only one Sidious truly feared, that is self-evident from the movies.

Sure... GL must have made a mistake when he told us that Mace OVERPOWERED Sidious.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Mace didnt defeat Sidious. It was a game, Sidious has no respect for Mace at all. Yoda is the only one Sidious truly feared, that is self-evident from the movies.


Gotta face the facts(though GL contradicts himself alot). GL stated that Mace defeated Palps fair-and-square. And Sidious didn't fear Yoda, at least it's not stated. The only person, Sidious ever feared was Luke Skywalker, and that was only about what he thought Luke COULD HAVE become.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sure... GL must have made a mistake when he told us that Mace OVERPOWERED Sidious.


GL also says Sidious was faking.

This is True

Originally posted by Xepeyon
Gotta face the facts(though GL contradicts himself alot). GL stated that Mace defeated Palps fair-and-square. And Sidious didn't fear Yoda, at least it's not stated. The only person, Sidious ever feared was Luke Skywalker, and that was only about what he thought Luke COULD HAVE become.


In the ROTJ novel, Luke just mentions Yodas name and it is stated Sidious felt fear.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
GL also says Sidious was faking.

When?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
When?

In the commentary, the same place you got your quote.

Look at the comentary

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
In the commentary, the same place you got your quote.

Line please.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
In the ROTJ novel, Luke just mentions Yodas name and it is stated Sidious felt fear.

By that time, Yoda was weaponless and senile. His fear is dumbfounded. It would be like a King fearing his elementary school bully. Even if Yoda FAR surpassed the Emperor, he would never be able to reach him. Nevertheless, his "Fear" is in writing. Your right.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Line please.

Gosh Glentract, your going to make me get off my lazy ass and watch the commentary again? Just look it up yourself if you need absolute proof.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Gosh Glentract, your going to make me get off my lazy ass and watch the commentary again? Just look it up yourself if you need absolute proof.

No. If you want to make a statement it is YOUR job to provide proof, not mine.

He saying he wants you to look it up for yourself so you can see it with your own eyes, because you obviously aren't going to take his word.

Of course I'm not going to take his word for it. He's crap dispenser most of the time.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Of course I'm not going to take his word for it. He's crap dispenser most of the time.


Erm no, you pull things out of your ass far more often than I do Glentract. I'll go watch the commentary now, you pushed me to do it.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Erm no, you pull things out of your ass far more often than I do Glentract. I'll go watch the commentary now, you pushed me to do it.

Is that so? Tell me about a few times.

GL says Palpatine 'pretended to lose his power'. There you go Glentract.

Just because he pretended to lose his power doesn't mean that he didn't lose to Mace. It's obvious that he was faking having lost all power, as he was still able to knock Mace out of the window with Anakin's help.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Just because he pretended to lose his power doesn't mean that he didn't lose to Mace. It's obvious that he was faking having lost all power, as he was still able to knock Mace out of the window with Anakin's help.


If Palpatine didnt lose all his power, then how could Mace have defeated him? The answer: He wasnt defeated, he was just playing Anakin to get him to turn to the dark side.

Do you know anything about fighting? Someone can have beaten me and overpowered me and have effectively won the fight, but if I get the chance, I can still jump up and push him out the window, even though the guy had beaten me. Get the picture?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Do you know anything about fighting? Someone can have beaten me and overpowered me and have effectively won the fight, but if I get the chance, I can still jump up and push him out the window, even though the guy had beaten me. Get the picture?


If you still have the ability to win the fight, then you havent lost.

So Yoda dident lose since he still had the "Ability" to win the fight?
Pathetic. Sidious lost that fight, In every fight when you put someone on their ass YOU win.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
So Yoda dident lose since he still had the "Ability" to win the fight?
Pathetic. Sidious lost that fight, In every fight when you put someone on their ass YOU win.

Yoda ran away, he didnt have the ability to win the fight any longer. Sidious did not lose the fight, because he could of got back up and pwned Mace any time he wanted to. He was just trying to manipulate Anakin.

Pwned Mace when he wanted to? He was backed up in a corner with a lightsaber pointed at his throat. Doesnt sound like he would have pwned mace at that point.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Pwned Mace when he wanted to? He was backed up in a corner with a lightsaber pointed at his throat. Doesnt sound like he would have pwned mace at that point.


GL says that Sidious still had his power, he was just faking being weak. On top of that, Sidious also had a spare lightsaber in his robe he could of used if he needed it. (see Yoda vs Sidious)

Im sure Sidious would have been able to pull his spare saber out when Mace was ready to kill Sidious. If he made one move such as pulling out his lightsaber then he would die.

Point being Sidious lost the saber duel. He had his saber knocked out of his hands and put down on his ass. Mace won in that respect.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Im sure Sidious would have been able to pull his spare saber out when Mace was ready to kill Sidious. If he made one move such as pulling out his lightsaber then he would die.

Point being Sidious lost the saber duel. He had his saber knocked out of his hands and put down on his ass. Mace won in that respect.

Erm no. Honestly, a simple force push could of knocked back mace long enough for Sidious to do whatever he wants. The whole fight was a stage, if you just think about it logically, it was a perfectly executed plan by Sidious. It played on Anakins own beliefs and emotions to get him to turn to the dark side.

Without Anakin, Sidious lacked the power to defeat Mace. On his own, Sidious was defeated. Although he still had some power left, he could not have defeated Mace alone at that point.

When it came to the force itself? Sidious far outclassed Mace in that regard and force lightning is hardly the only thing he could do.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Erm no. Honestly, a simple force push could of knocked back mace long enough for Sidious to do whatever he wants. The whole fight was a stage, if you just think about it logically, it was a perfectly executed plan by Sidious. It played on Anakins own beliefs and emotions to get him to turn to the dark side.

Sure, and a simple snap of the wrist and Sidious would have no head. Seriously...Sidious had lost the "fight" at that point. Maybe he succeded in coverting anakin, but he lost the "fight" thats whats important.

Jedi like Mace don't kill unarmed prisoners

Until people like Sidious provoked them.

Believe me. Mace would have no problem killing sidious. If anakin dident come in at that instance then Mace would have finished him off. Jedi "like" Mace would kill unarmed prisoners.

Speculation. We know Palpatine had power left. If Mace tried anything, the lightning / deflection fight would resume with an undisclosed victor.

Saying "Palpatine would run out of energy and Mace will kill him" is just like saying "Mace wouldn't be able to hold the lightning any longer and be blasted out the window".

Erm...Palpatine wanted to convert Anakin, his SHATTERPOINT was "Palpatine trusts Anakin."

Mace meant to arrest Sidious and Sidious needed to put himself in jeopardy to force Anakin's hand. Personally, I firmly doubt Palp gave his all the first time around

Glentract is right. Kar would win, if they fought in the jungle, anyway. Outside of the jungle it is unknown.


Obi-Wan could have beaten Vader in ANH if he had wanted to. According to Lucas, Obi-Wan let Vader kill him so Luke could escape.

Vader was the last person to "stand up to 5 Jedi and Held his own"

Obi-Wan could have beaten Vader in ANH if he had wanted to.

Contradicted by the ANH novel.

According to Lucas, Obi-Wan let Vader kill him so Luke could escape.

Source please. And this has nothing to do with Obi being superior to Vader.

and yes, Vader does take on many Jedi while getting used to the suit.

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/Purge/purge_12.jpg

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/Purge/purge_13.jpg

http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/Purge/purge_14.jpg

Apparently, they were all Jedi masters too.

In a Normal battle Palpy would force push mace out of the Window as he did in the comic

i like how her lightsaber changes from green to purple

ANH AC. It says why he didn't kill Vader when he had the chance, so it does have something to do with it.

Look at that comic. They're 8 Jedi, Not all of them attack him at once. The First jedi who attacks him sucks and is as stupid as TPM Anakin, so, naturally, she gets pwnd. Next Vader fights two okay Jedi at once, pushes a third back with ease. Then he fights one pretty strong Jedi one on one (what the hell were the others doing?). That one Jedi manages to disarm Vader before getting extremely overconfident and also she doesn't know that Vader's really strong even without a blade, so he picks her up and snaps her neck. There goes two Jedi. Next just 3 of the 6 Jedi attack Vader while the other 3 stand there and watch. Vader kills one of them, then the five remaining Jedi fight him at once and he loses. Then he pretends to surrender and some cocky bastard Jedi kills Bultar Swan (4 Jedi left), attacks Vader and dies due to extreme overconfidence. Then they're's only 3 left and they beat Vader, he has to get his ass saved by Clones.

So really, it's not that great of an acclompishment, the only time he kills Jedi is when they're really overconfident or when they don't all attack him at once. When Vader fights five of them at once he loses, plus the three strongest of the 8 get killed not by Vader, but by Clones.


Says who/what? The first one he killed had a braid.

That is not a Padawan Braid its too big

Says who/what? The first one he killed had a braid.

He refers to them as "My Masters". You don't refer to a Padawn as a Master when you're a Dark Lord of the Sith.

Two are referred to as "Master ______" at the beginning of the comic, and the other three are clearly Masters.

It's really the fact that he managed to keep up with 5, (One being Choi in the air, and the other big guy along with the three) at once. It's really hard to kill targets when you're outnumbered.

Thank You Razielim

Originally posted by Razielim
Says who/what? The first one he killed had a braid.

He refers to them as "My Masters". You don't refer to a Padawn as a Master when you're a Dark Lord of the Sith.

Two are referred to as "Master ______" at the beginning of the comic, and the other three are clearly Masters.

It's really the fact that he managed to keep up with 5, (One being Choi in the air, and the other big guy along with the three) at once. It's really hard to kill targets when you're outnumbered.
Dooku and Yoda refer to Obi-Wan as "Master Kenobi." and the Younglings refer to Anakin as "Master Skywalker." so calling them Master doesn't really mean they;re Jedi Masters.



He didn't really even keep up with the, they defeated him pretty easily when they attacled him 5 on 1.