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http://www.stopungunban.org/

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/4/25/130646.shtml

I don't really know what to make of this. To me it seems slightly biased (The video), but it doesn't really change the subject matter.

WTF? Screw that...

Stupid UN.

Hell no... Over my dead body. Their gonna have to pry my guns from rotting corpse.

I already printed out my 3 letters and sent them to all 3 sources. I also sent 3 letters in my own words expressing my views and opinions about their influence on gun control.

It would help if the article was not talking such shit.

There has been no increase in crime in the UK that has anything to do with guns at all. There were also pretty much no crimes that were being stopped by guns either.

They define the systems of Canada, Australia and the UK as a 'nightmare'. A nightmare where you are some one hundrerd times less likely to get shot, you mean? Bargain.

Meanwhile, nothing the UN decides can affect you. A resolution the UN drafts would have to be signed into law by the President.

If the UN is going to come to a conclusion on something, that's pretty much just an opinion. And there is bugger all you can do about that, all the more so because the gun culture in the US is very rare; much of the world does not have anything close.

If your country is that concerned, it will just have to ignore what the UN says.

we should go back to swords

The U.S., the UK, France, Russia and China (the 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council) are the world's leading arms dealers.

Pff, add all those countries' populations together, and then times it by 2, and it's obvious why they're the leading arms dealers: They've got so many f*cking of them!

Humans, Arms or Baddies ?

Human arms are baddies?

"They define the systems of Canada, Australia and the UK as a 'nightmare'. A nightmare where you are some one hundrerd times less likely to get shot, you mean? Bargain." The crime rate in Canada is above that of the U.S..

But the GUN crime rate, hmm?

Guns cause far more crimes than they prevent.

i say put more guns and ammo in the streets and let the world shoot itsself to death.
start sending the nukes. drop the bombs fire the guns and let the dust never clear

surrending your guns is a means of being enslaved to your government

And having guns is a means of freeing yourself from them?

they want to take your defence away. and they will create problem reaction solution scenerios to condition the public. No one wants to rid the world of weapons more than me, but we need to ask about the motivation behind the immense pressure for gun laws inspired by places ive just looke dup such as Hungerford, Dunblane, Tasmania, Oklahoma, etc, etc. Problem-reaction-solution. Getting hold of illegal weapons is so easy that gun laws would not stop anyone who really wanted to kill.

"No one wants to rid the world of weapons more than me"

Somehow I suspect there are grounds to question that.

So, basically, you advocate armed resistance to the establishment, yes?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
But the GUN crime rate, hmm?

Guns cause far more crimes than they prevent.

People who use guns for crimes get them illegally, you do actually have to have a permit in this country.

Making an illegal gun more illegal isn't going to cut the gun crime rate. In fact, it'll make it harder for regular citizens to defend themselves, and it'd probably increase the gun crime rate.

No, that's nonsense speculation. There isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that armed citizens reduce crime- quite the contrary, in fact.

And addressing the issue of gun legality is a vital part of addressing the general issue of gun culture which is by far and away the largest reason behind the absolutely insane US gun crime rate.

The US has to accept that either its citizens are more gun-psychotic by nature or that the free supply of guns is causing an enormous problem.

Either way, the pressure is on for the issue to be dealt with and very few soruces can see that happening without gun control.

The US is on the defensive here simply because their gun rate is so utterly ludicrous. It is a big black mark against their country that brings great disapproval from other places.

What your point also ignores is that the general and liberal availability of guns in the US in turn feeds a massive increase in the supply of illegal arms too.

If we're going to ban guns. Then that means everyone must banned all guns. Including their respective governments. And for those of you who think that by banning guns we will be leaving in some type of Utopia after guns are banned. Guess what's gonna happen?

People will start using knifes...then cooking fryers...then clubs with a sharp nail in the center...murderers will still find a weapon to kill....so what are we gonna do next? Ban all objects that can kill a person?

Give me a break....

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
If we're going to ban guns. Then that means everyone must banned all guns. Including their respective governments. And for those of you who think that by banning guns we will be leaving in some type of Utopia after guns are banned. Guess what's gonna happen?

People will start using knifes...then cooking fryers...then clubs with a sharp nail in the center...murderers will still find a weapon to kill....so what are we gonna do next? Ban all objects that can kill a person?

Give me a break.... You are joking right...lets test something, I get a loaded gun you a knife and we will see who is down first....guns have only one purpose...to kill.....and don't say "Nah you can also turn your TV on with it...YOU CAN'T...it's a damn Cartoon".

Crimes are illegal, wow no brainer there. Does anyone think that a criminal cares if they break a gun law?

"surrending your guns is a means of being enslaved to your government"

I do agree with this as well.

Yep!! Never give up your guns.........especially on Saterday nights after drinking!!

Originally posted by Bardock42
You are joking right...lets test something, I get a loaded gun you a knife and we will see who is down first....guns have only one purpose...to kill.....and don't say "Nah you can also turn your TV on with it...YOU CAN'T...it#s a damn Cartoon".

It's not about who has the best weapon in a fight Bardock. It's about criminal human nature that kills people. Back in Ancient Rome did they had guns to kill? No, they had swords...did they ban swords and people stop killing each other?

Swords in a pinch though can be used to dice carrots, can a gun~!

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
It's not about who has the best weapon in a fight Bardock. It's about criminal human nature that kills people. Back in Ancient Rome did they had guns to kill? No, they had swords...did they ban swords and people stop killing each other?

Oh well, I could certainly keep arguing, but it just happens that I am against gun bans, so that would be pointless.

nvm

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
nvm

Why did you edit...the walnut crack comment had a point...although only because a sword is only used as weapon as well....

It had a point....but is just gonna go nowhere in the discussion. It will turn into a huge pacifist vs gun owners long discussion. It's the weekend...I need a break.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, that's nonsense speculation. There isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that armed citizens reduce crime- quite the contrary, in fact.

And addressing the issue of gun legality is a vital part of addressing the general issue of gun culture which is by far and away the largest reason behind the absolutely insane US gun crime rate.

The US has to accept that either its citizens are more gun-psychotic by nature or that the free supply of guns is causing an enormous problem.

Either way, the pressure is on for the issue to be dealt with and very few soruces can see that happening without gun control.

The US is on the defensive here simply because their gun rate is so utterly ludicrous. It is a big black mark against their country that brings great disapproval from other places.

What your point also ignores is that the general and liberal availability of guns in the US in turn feeds a massive increase in the supply of illegal arms too.

Err, no, how do you figure it's the contrary?? If getting a gun illegally is illegal in the first place...adding another law to make them more illegal is going to do what? Nothing. The criminal will still have a way to get an illegal gun. Yet, the normal citizen is restriced to having no gun to protect themselves.

How many robbers do you think would be deterred by the thought of being shot by a regular citizen? "Hmm, do i try to take this guy's $50, knowing there is a higher possibility that this guy will shoot me in the face?" Or what about rapists who can't rape a woman because she can shoot his balls off? No, that wouldn't deter a criminal at all

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Err, no, how do you figure it's the contrary?? If getting a gun illegally is illegal in the first place...adding another law to make them more illegal is going to do what? Nothing. The criminal will still have a way to get an illegal gun. Yet, the normal citizen is restriced to having no gun to protect themselves.

How many robbers do you think would be deterred by the thought of being shot by a regular citizen? "Hmm, do i try to take this guy's $50, knowing there is a higher possibility that this guy will shoot me in the face?" Or what about rapists who can't rape a woman because she can shoot his balls off? No, that wouldn't deter a criminal at all

Shooting someone that robs you in the face is also a crime.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Shooting someone that robs you in the face is also a crime. not so much if your physical well being is threatened

Originally posted by Soleran
not so much if your physical well being is threatened

Well, I suppose under circumstances..but usually...yeah a crime.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Shooting someone that robs you in the face is also a crime.

Not in the United States. it's self-defense.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Not in the United States. it's self-defense.

Shooting someone in the face that robs you....is self defense? Isn't that a rather extreme reaction?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Shooting someone in the face that robs you....is self defense? Isn't that a rather extreme reaction?

If someone is robbing you at gun point shooting them is extreme?

Yea, ok.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
If someone is robbing you at gun point shooting them is extreme?

Yea, ok.

Maybe it is just me but I find shooting someone always extreme....

Unless its rock salt with a 20 gauge and they are trying to steal sugar from you!

Originally posted by Ushgarak
And having guns is a means of freeing yourself from them? Actually, yes, especially if the government becomes oppresive. That is why we have the right to bear arms in the first place. (U.S. anyway).

To add to this, illegalizing guns will only leave criminals with them. Sure, they'd be harder to get, but if drugs can be smuggled and are everywhere, so can guns. Criminals are already breaking the law, why would they suddenly start following them?

Originally posted by NineCoronas
Actually, yes, especially if the government becomes oppresive. That is why we have the right to bear arms in the first place. (U.S. anyway).

To add to this, illegalizing guns will only leave criminals with them. Sure, they'd be harder to get, but if drugs can be smuggled and are everywhere, so can guns. Criminals are already breaking the law, why would they suddenly start following them?

Nah, if you didn't have guns the queen of england could come to your home and push you around.....god, the mentality of some Americans amazes me.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah, if you didn't have guns the queen of england could come to your home and push you around.....god, the mentality of some Americans amazes me. The mentality of people who don't think human beings don't take advantage of other human beings amazes me too.

Originally posted by NineCoronas
The mentality of people who don't think human beings don't take advantage of other human beings amazes me too.

Oh they do, and I am all for guns...but oppressive government...put down with guns of the people....ha....haha....you are serious?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Maybe it is just me but I find shooting someone always extreme....

So instead of defending myself from immediate danger I should what? Let the other guy shoot me and take everything?

Yea, ok.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
So instead of defending myself from immediate danger I should what? Let the other guy shoot me and take everything?

Yea, ok.

Maybe give him your money...and well...not kill someone?

I mean seriously, chances are you get killed trying to protect yourself....

Originally posted by Bardock42
Maybe give him your money...and well...not kill someone?

I mean seriously, chances are you get killed trying to protect yourself....

Because someone willing to rob people deserves to get away and keep robbing people.

And I'd like to know how you figured that second bit out.

I would kill.

Though here in the US, if someone breaks into your house you just can't shoot them?........what the heck is that about.........you have to prove intent on bodily harm??

Originally posted by Bardock42
Maybe give him your money...and well...not kill someone?

I mean seriously, chances are you get killed trying to protect yourself....


Or at least get hurt, if your willing to take the chance.................

Originally posted by debbiejo
I would kill.

Though here in the US, if someone breaks into your house you just can't shoot them?........what the heck is that about.........you have to prove intent on bodily harm??

In the US? Hell no, if someone trespasses into your home you can do whatever you want to them, as long as it's reasonable to what they are doing. I.E. if some kid trespasses to get a ball, give him the ball and kick him out. If someone trespasses and starts robbing your home, you can beat them until they cant get away. If someone tries to harm you, then you can kill them out of self defense.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Because someone willing to rob people deserves to get away and keep robbing people.

And I'd like to know how you figured that second bit out.
Okay lets see...Robber walks with a gun at you, you think "I will shoot him so I don't get robbed" ....he shoots you first...

I even made a picture to show you

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
In the US? Hell no, if someone trespasses into your home you can do whatever you want to them, as long as it's reasonable to what they are doing. I.E. if some kid trespasses to get a ball, give him the ball and kick him out. If someone trespasses and starts robbing your home, you can beat them until they cant get away. If someone tries to harm you, then you can kill them out of self defense. Nooo....Not from some of the cases I've read about.........you have to prove bodily harm.......otherwise, they could sue you....

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh they do, and I am all for guns...but oppressive government...put down with guns of the people....ha....haha....you are serious? I am not sure if you are trying to convey trust in world governments or distrust.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Nooo....Not from some of the cases I've read about.........you have to prove bodily harm.......otherwise, they could sue you.... Not if they're dead. It's only your story if someone enters your home and you and kill them for it. Though you're right, we have some f*cked laws in our country that allow that kind of thing.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Okay lets see...Robber walks with a gun at you, you think "I will shoot him so I don't get robbed" ....he shoots you first...

I even made a picture to show you


LOL that was awesome.

One of the "reasons" with the right to bear arms is if say that criminal pulled a gun on you and say someone walked by and noticed, they pulled out their gun and took care of the offender. Lol I wouldn't say it benefits someone in a "draw." (This is what people use for discussion today and I realize it wasn't nec. the original intent)

Originally posted by debbiejo
Nooo....Not from some of the cases I've read about.........you have to prove bodily harm.......otherwise, they could sue you....

Im aware that a burgalar can get away with that in the UK...but Ive never heard of that happening in the US.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Okay lets see...Robber walks with a gun at you, you think "I will shoot him so I don't get robbed" ....he shoots you first...

I even made a picture to show you

You lack some serious self defense knowledge if you think that's what would happen every time. It'd happen if the person was stupid enough not to MOVE before pulling out his gun t defend himself.

it is.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
You lack some serious self defense knowledge if you think that's what would happen every time. It'd happen if the person was stupid enough not to MOVE before pulling out his gun t defend himself.


It was a very simplistic example. The point is if you try to defend yourself with a gun you put yourself in a more dangerous situation than you were before.
No wonder you have an unreasonable amount of gun deaths.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It was a very simplistic example. The point is if you try to defend yourself with a gun you put yourself in a more dangerous situation than you were before.
No wonder you have an unreasonable amount of gun deaths. Or, you give them the money, and they kill you anyway. I really do prefer the chance to kill them first.

Originally posted by NineCoronas
Or, you give them the money, and they kill you anyway. I really do prefer the chance to kill them first.

That is possible but certainly less likely, don't you think?

Also, if they shoot you whole you are trying to protect yourself they can claim self defense as well, can't they?

Originally posted by Bardock42
That is possible but certainly less likely, don't you think?

Also, if they shoot you whole you are trying to protect yourself they can claim self defense as well, can't they? Yes. So? If that happens, it happens. If you get mugged though, chances are it won't be in broad daylight with a bunch of people around, so it'll be your word against his... which means, you can just as easily kill him and then there is only a single story. Cruel, I know, but true.

Also, there are points that I would prefer to own a gun for home defense than mostly anything else. I'd probably only carry a knife on me when out in public, but I won't be packing around a 9mm Barretta or Glock for 'street safe-keeping'. If someone enters my house, I will kill them if they're uninvited guests, just because I see so much shit about people getting murdered/kidnapped in their own homes.

Originally posted by NineCoronas
Yes. So? If that happens, it happens. If you get mugged though, chances are it won't be in broad daylight with a bunch of people around, so it'll be your word against his... which means, you can just as easily kill him and then there is only a single story. Cruel, I know, but true.

Also, there are points that I would prefer to own a gun for home defense than mostly anything else. I'd probably only carry a knife on me when out in public, but I won't be packing around a 9mm Barretta or Glock for 'street safe-keeping'. If someone enters my house, I will kill them if they're uninvited guests, just because I see so much shit about people getting murdered/kidnapped in their own homes.

No, that's not the point. I don't deny you the right to protect yourself. I'm jsut saying that it is much more possible to get killed in that case. So, I wouldn't risk that, if you' do, fine with me.

And ****...you Americans are ****ing crazy, I think I will stay here in Europe where when you get robbed, you survive and don't have to kill someone.

Pardon me if I don't like my belongings and el deniro being stolen.

Originally posted by NineCoronas
Pardon me if I don't like my belongings and el deniro being stolen.

Yeah, well I don't like to shoot people.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, well I don't like to shoot people. Good. Keep that American mentality away from you.

Originally posted by NineCoronas
Good. Keep that American mentality away from you.

I will.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, well I don't like to shoot people.


Yup me either, I ownn a handgun and I tell you what, I would give over my money in my wallet before attempting to pull a gun on an armed robber who is already pointing a gun at me. Call me crazy but the odds are distinctly in their favor.

Originally posted by Soleran
Yup me either, I won a handgun and I tell you what, I would give over my money in my wallet before attempting to pull a gun on an armed robber who is already pointing a gun at me. Call me crazy but the odds are distinctly in their favor. There are hundreds of scenarios other than that.

Originally posted by NineCoronas
There are hundreds of scenarios other than that.


Not to be an ass here but have you fired many guns or been held up? Now I have fired many guns but I haven't been held up. The only way I would pull a gun out is if I am willing to kill and the change in my pocket isn't worth the weight on my conscientious.

Point is I am against a gun ban however when there are guns around I am very cautious. The only way having a gun on you will help is if you can surprise the criminal and they aren't willing to shoot you. Otherwise Bardock42 is very correct.

Originally posted by Soleran
Not to be an ass here but have you fired many guns or been held up? Now I have fired many guns but I haven't been held up. The only way I would pull a gun out is if I am willing to kill and the change in my pocket isn't worth the weight on my conscientious.

Point is I am against a gun ban however when there are guns around I am very cautious. The only way having a gun on you will help is if you can surprise the criminal and they aren't willing to shoot you. Otherwise Bardock42 is very correct. I meant hundreds of scenarios other than being held up, and yes I have fired a gun before. Other than a shotgun, .22, and 'child' guns.

Just check the figures. Countries that allow owning firearms have significantly increased deaths caused by firearms. And among the victims of those events there were many innocent people.
Allowing people to own and even use weapons is granting them a power they can't cope with, and that power tends to do more damage instead of preventing it.
Everybody should have the right to defend themselves, their family and property, but access to lethal force can lead to exaggerated actions.

Originally posted by Pandemoniac
Just check the figures. Countries that allow owning firearms have significantly increased deaths caused by firearms. And among the victims of those events there were many innocent people.
Allowing people to own and even use weapons is granting them a power they can't cope with, and that power tends to do more damage instead of preventing it.
Everybody should have the right to defend themselves, their family and property, but access to lethal force can lead to exaggerated actions. How many of those countries have a total crime rate that is less than a gun-allowing country? All that restricting gun access and ownership will do is deprive good people of a means to defend themselves against criminals who would still have the guns (They're criminals afterall). It'd only make it more difficult to get guns... but honestly, if you can smuggle drugs, you can smuggle guns.

well the US seems to hold up pretty well

I live in the Netherlands, and we have a strict law on weapons. We have about 200 crime-related deaths a year in a population of 18 million.
In New York City, populated by like 8 mill, there were over 900 crime-related deaths last year. Most by use of firearms, and many without intended cause.
If someone tries to rob me, I would go along and give him what he wants. I have a good insurance. Not that I wouldn't like to kill the ******* for what he does to me, but I keep in mind the fact that he might hurt me before I can hurt him.
And there is where it goes wrong with gun-owners, they tend to get paranoid and see danger where it might not be, yet they do respond with the only answer they think they know; shooting.

Originally posted by lord xyz
well the US seems to hold up pretty well As does the rest of the world.

uh huh how many of the swiss own firearms?

Originally posted by Soleran
uh huh how many of the swiss own firearms? I don't remember if it's the Swiss or the Swedish who all have guns for every male (female too?).

Originally posted by NineCoronas
I don't remember if it's the Swiss or the Swedish who all have guns for every male (female too?).

Swiss, and they also have to keep 50 rounds at home! So where is the problem with guns over there? Exactly there isn't a severe gun problem so it would seem that if alot of people own guns that doesn't equal massive gun crimes, so it must be something else.

Tons of assault rifles are kept in private residences there

Originally posted by Soleran
Swiss, and they also have to keep 50 rounds at home! So where is the problem with guns over there? Exactly there isn't a severe gun problem so it would seem that if alot of people own guns that doesn't equal massive gun crimes, so it must be something else.

Tons of assault rifles are kept in private residences there

What about this: A good amount of you Americans are freaking Psychopaths...

Could be. And their law encourages it as well; it legalises killing someone over the most puny offences, without consequences. That combined with how easy it is to legally get a weapon there results in far to many fatal confrontations.

Originally posted by Pandemoniac
Could be. And their law encourages it as well; it legalises killing someone over the most puny offences, without consequences. That combined with how easy it is to legally get a weapon there results in far to many fatal confrontations. are you talking about the U.S.? Because you only really get to kill in self-defence, and that is contested sometimes too.

You can get away with a financial penalty killing someone that tries to steal your car, you get away clean killing someone breaking in to your home, atleast in some states.

Originally posted by Pandemoniac
You can get away with a financial penalty killing someone that tries to steal your car, you get away clean killing someone breaking in to your home, atleast in some states. Some... I don't live in one. It also depends in which area of the state really... a lot are ready to string you up for the crows to feed on you if you kill anyone, even in self-defense.

Originally posted by Pandemoniac
You can get away with a financial penalty killing someone that tries to steal your car, you get away clean killing someone breaking in to your home, atleast in some states.


And clearly that is a VERY simplified explanation.

Ok, being armed doesn't only prevent being robbed(how many stores have defended themselves from armed robbers because they had a gun under the counter), but also women being raped, home invasions, etc.

It's too easy now to get a gun illegally, making it more illegal will not do anything except make it easier for those with illegal guns to invade people's homes, rob stores, etc.

Besides, how many americans WOULDN'T riot if guns were banned? I bet the whole state of texas starts a revolt.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Err, no, how do you figure it's the contrary?? If getting a gun illegally is illegal in the first place...adding another law to make them more illegal is going to do what? Nothing. The criminal will still have a way to get an illegal gun. Yet, the normal citizen is restriced to having no gun to protect themselves.

How many robbers do you think would be deterred by the thought of being shot by a regular citizen? "Hmm, do i try to take this guy's $50, knowing there is a higher possibility that this guy will shoot me in the face?" Or what about rapists who can't rape a woman because she can shoot his balls off? No, that wouldn't deter a criminal at all

You can try and argue logic from subjective situations all you like.

But here are the hard facts.

If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, you get roughly the same population as the US.

In the year 2000, thouse countries combined had 112 gun deaths. The US had 32000.

The US gun death rate is actually 300 times that in comparably civilised countries. THREE HUNDRED TIMES. This is not a minor issue. It is slaughter.

Everyone is looking at the US, a country that likes to pride its civilised nature, and saying "Are you mad? Why the heck can you not keep your gun issue under control? What is wrong wit you people?"

The average London doctor wills see less gun injuries in his life time than the average New York Doctor will in in one week.

There is a mass amount of death beung dealt over there that is staggeringly out of propotion from any prevention of crime. It is very, VERY clear to all observers that your gun culture is cuasing crime, not prventing it. An armed citizenry does NOT prevent any significant amount of crime. It does, however, makes criminals much more likely to be armed themselves, and it does make it way easier for people to snap one day and commit gun crime.

We ALL have illegal guns around, you know. Each of our countries. We all have similar ethnic and gang-related tensions. Our general crime rates are very similar- it is not as if these other countries are more sophisticated places to live in other ways. It is ONLY the guns. They are the difference. Just look at the situation. Muggings- similar. Rapings- similar. Burglary- similar. Gun death- oh, 300 times higher in the US? Assault- similar. And so on.

You cannot run away from this truth for much longer. The gun issue in your country MUST be addressed.

So what is it going to be? Do you want to accept that Americans are just more murderous than any other people? Or do you finally want to conceed what everyone has known for years and years, that your open policy for gun ownership fuels a mentality where, illegal or otherwise, people get shot in your country all the damn time?

Like I say, this is a black mark on the States. It is something that makes other countries look at you and consider you uncivilised. It is a dark heart beating at your centre, and if the UN wants to codify a widely held opinion on that matter, then you are just going to have to lump it.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Ok, being armed doesn't only prevent being robbed(how many stores have defended themselves from armed robbers because they had a gun under the counter), but also women being raped, home invasions, etc.

It's too easy now to get a gun illegally, making it more illegal will not do anything except make it easier for those with illegal guns to invade people's homes, rob stores, etc.

Does it always though? If the figures we get here from the US are correct being extremely liberal when it comes to gun ownership does not appear to have have had a huge impact in reducing crime - rape, murder. In fact quite the opposite, especially when it comes to gun related injury and fatality, criminal and noncriminal, intentional or not.

Now there are some nations that have quite open gun laws that have relatively few problems, and there are those that have a lot. I think you have it here -



It is very much a cultural thing. Australia, for example, had far laxer gun laws a few years ago then now. Something bad happened that made the government rethink this - it was agreed the common person didn't really have need of guns, there were no real statistics which supported the claim they reduced crime or victimisation - laws were introduced and a by back of the now illegal guns initiated. Now, it was quite successful, and it did have a good effect on crime figures, and with sufficient policing of the law overall it was, and continues to be, a statistically sound move. Of course there are still illegal guns around. Still a black market. But the problem of guns is vastly reduced.

Of course gun culture was not so nearly ingrained here, and there are still avenues available for those who need to use guns. I don't think it would be wise for the UN, or really even work, to try to promote a global ban on guns at this point in time. However I am all for tougher gun laws, restriction of certain types of guns and so forth. The UN would be better of promoting tougher global gun laws then a total ban. Or maybe to try to improve gun culture - to educate, which is the first and most important step on the path of change.

And well said Ushgarak, you stated that perfectly.

The trick would be to stop the manufacturing of guns, not banning ownership. Yet, what arms manufacturing companies would stop completely? None

"If the figures we get here from the US are correct being extremely liberal when it comes to gun ownership does not appear to have have had a huge impact in reducing crime - rape, murder. In fact quite the opposite, especially when it comes to gun related injury and fatality, criminal and noncriminal, intentional or not."

Because the places with highest crime rates, New York, L.A., Chicago etc are full of citizens who don't want to own guns(they're full of 'liberals'), but a whole bunch of criminals who do. Crime rates in cities or towns with a higher volume of legally owned guns are actually lower. So it does work.

Also, a ban on guns disarms the police force. the NYPD is larger than many country's armies, yet criminals with illegal guns still outnumber them. Take away their guns and they'd be useless. There was a 2 month stretch where 8 police officers were shot and half of them died. and that's when they're armed. Imagine if they tried having billy clubs instead.

Switzerland's gun ownership laws are successful against crime because everyone owns a gun, not a third of the population.

How is the crime rate (Not gun crime, I'm so tired of hearing people seperate crime and gun crime... there is no root difference), of those countries Ushgarak mentioned combined? Greater or lower than the U.S.?

If you look at Canada, it is double the crime rate of the U.S. Guns obviously contribute to crime, but they also help prevent it. Of course, people only like to see the bad and never really look at the good... including me.



It'd be pointless to have a police force where they die every ten minutes.

Wait, why does a Gun Ban deprive the police of using them?

Hmm, the UK has a gun ban if I remember correctly. So how many officers in the UK carry guns? They don't, guns are illegal.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Hmm, the UK has a gun ban if I remember correctly. So how many officers in the UK carry guns? They don't, guns are illegal.

Yeah but the one doesn't mean that the other has to follow. If guns are illegal to have for citizens the Police can still own them....

Originally posted by Bardock42
What about this: A good amount of you Americans are freaking Psychopaths... ok

Though we can get a permit to carry one in our pockets.....you don't have to pull it out to shoot someone who is pointing one at you....All ya got to do is keep your hands in your pockets and fiddle around a little bit........

Though I do own a hand gun, I've never used it. I do however carry a knife......There's just something about that that I like.......I've always done so....

Originally posted by debbiejo
ok

Though we can get a permit to carry one in our pockets.....you don't have to pull it out to shoot someone who is pointing one at you....All ya got to do is keep your hands in your pockets and fiddle around a little bit........

Though I do own a hand gun, I've never used it. I do however carry a knife......There's just something about that that I like.......I've always done so....

Great, I never carried a gun or a knife...and I am still alive....go me.

But have you driven downtown to high crime areas like Detriot or Chicago or LA??......Do you have places like that there???...

Originally posted by debbiejo
But have you driven downtown to high crime areas like Detriot or Chicago or LA??......Do you have places like that there???...

Obviously not...you know why we don't? CAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ****ING GUNS.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Obviously not...you know why we don't? CAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ****ING GUNS. Drug crime is higher in LA, Detroit, or Chicago than gun crime. Sorry mate, but blaming the world's problems on guns doesn't work.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Obviously not...you know why we don't? CAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ****ING GUNS. It doesn't matter. If someone really wanted a gun, they'll get one, even if they were banned. That would leave the criminals armed, and the innocent public unarmed.....IF the criminals know that a person might have a gun, they'll think twice..

Originally posted by Bardock42
Obviously not...you know why we don't? CAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ****ING GUNS.

That may have been the most ignorant statement about ghettos that I have ever seen.

Congratulations.

Originally posted by NineCoronas
Drug crime is higher in LA, Detroit, or Chicago than gun crime. Sorry mate, but blaming the world's problems on guns doesn't work.

Drug Crime doesn't hurt innocent bystanders though.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
That may have been the most ignorant statement about ghettos that I have ever seen.

Congratulations.

It wasn't a comment about ghettos it was a comment about dangerous places.
Dangerous Places because of guns to be more correct.

Originally posted by debbiejo
It doesn't matter. If someone really wanted a gun, they'll get one, even if they were banned. That would leave the criminals armed, and the innocent public unarmed.....IF the criminals know that a person might have a gun, they'll think twice..

Why doesn't it happen here? Why? Any reason?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Though I do own a hand gun, I've never used it. I do however carry a knife......There's just something about that that I like.......I've always done so....

I myself carry a swiss army knife. Still the best multi tool out there.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Drug Crime doesn't hurt innocent bystanders though.

Of course it does. Crack heads rob and steal to pay for another fix all the time.





Dangerous places because of poverty. But you were close. Almost. Sort of. Not really.



Becauuse you dont have a constitution that says it's ok to own a gun to protect yourself on both an individual and on the level of public revolution.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Of course it does. Crack heads rob and steal to pay for another fix all the time.





Dangerous places because of poverty. But you were close. Almost. Sort of. Not really.



Becauuse you dont have a constitution that says it's ok to own a gun to protect yourself on both an individual and on the level of public revolution.

That is not drug crimes though, that is stealing and robbing.

How would driving through such a neighbourhood be dangerous if....they wouldn't have guns?


Well if that is the answer, thank God we don't. I personally enjoy living.

UK police didn't carry guns long before the gun ban came in.

The gun ban didn't apply to police. They simply don't carry them by policy.

So that link is ridiculous.

So meanwhile, does anyone want to address the important issue? WHY does America have such a ludicrous gun crime rate?

I mean, do you actiually want us to think it is because you are all more psychotic by nature? And if that were so, why aren't your knife crime rates any higher?

Again, the ONLY difference of note is the gun crime rate!

Err... difference to what?

In crime rates. There are ups and downs in various area but in general, crime rates between these countries are very similar and comparable.

All except the US gun crime rate, which goes so far off the scale you actually need to switch to a different graph scale to track it. It is obviously and amazingly out of proportion.

Hmmmm not sure, possibly we are a melting pot of many different nationalities and beliefs that get in the way and discriminations which leads to poverty and drug use...

Like I mentioned above, we all have our ethnic and gang-related issues. That drug crime is not always related to gun crime has also been mentioned, and besides which we all have our huge drug crime issues anyway.

Besides which, if your ethnic and gang problems were enough to make gun crime THAT much worse, it would also make all violent crime that much worse, yes? Which it doesn't. Those rates are steady. In some places, actively lower in the US than elsewhere.

People in the US will never give up their guns. It's part of the constitution, and they will fight for that constitution with guns if they have too.......lol.........It's part of our history....I don't believe banning them would help in this country....If the criminals want them, they will still get them. Most here view other countries that have banned guns as tragic! The Militia would of been able to do nothing if not for guns. These were only farmers and towns folk during the Revolutionary War....I believe there is a fear that if guns were banned and some foreign enemy were to take over, we would not be able to defend ourselves at the grass roots level........I don't think this answers your questions, but this is my view...

Originally posted by debbiejo
People in the US will never give up their guns. It's part of the constitution, and they will fight for that constitution with guns if they have too.......lol.........It's part of our history....I don't believe banning them would help in this country....If the criminals want them, they will still get them. Most here view other countries that have banned guns as tragic! The Militia would of been able to do nothing if not for guns. These were only farmers and towns folk during the Revolutionary War....I believe there is a fear that if guns were banned and some foreign enemy were to take over, we would not be able to defend ourselves at the grass roots level........I don't think this answers your questions, but this is my view...

It's not impossible to get a gun here...but it certainly is much harder than in the US..and well...if you meet someone dangerous here you have really, really good chances he won't own a gun.

I am very interested in this idea that the Revolution needed to be legal to be possible.

Sorry, did I say interested? I meant 'hysterical at'.

Whatever fairytale ideas exist of you people needing guns to defend themselves is no excuse or justifcation for the mass murder that is your gun crime rate.

I am not saying, ban guns and the gun crime will suddenly disappear. it is much more complex than that, and much of the damage is done already.

But there are so many people dying, that the issue MUST be addressed, and it has to be addressed at the level of the menatlity of guns you speak of. And the most important weapon to start to erode that mentatlity is anti-gun legislation.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That is not drug crimes though, that is stealing and robbing.

How would driving through such a neighbourhood be dangerous if....they wouldn't have guns?


Well if that is the answer, thank God we don't. I personally enjoy living.

So it's not his addiction to the drug that caused him to desire another fix enough to steal...so it's unrelated to drugs? Not exactly

How wouldnt they have guns? They get their guns illegally, ITS ALREADY ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO HAVE GUNS AND THEY HAVE THEM ANYWAY. what arent you understanding!?


Originally posted by Ushgarak
UK police didn't carry guns long before the gun ban came in.

The gun ban didn't apply to police. They simply don't carry them by policy.

So that link is ridiculous.

So meanwhile, does anyone want to address the important issue? WHY does America have such a ludicrous gun crime rate?

I mean, do you actiually want us to think it is because you are all more psychotic by nature? And if that were so, why aren't your knife crime rates any higher?

Again, the ONLY difference of note is the gun crime rate!

America has such ludicris gun crime rate because people are afraid and rased as such. They're also ignorant on how to properly handle guns. America has more violence than any other country period; gun related non-gun related or otherwise.

The real question is, why is that? Some people can have a gun on them their entire lifetime and never use it. The gun isn't the cause of killing people, it's the retard behind the trigger. More smart people = less gun crime AND less accidents related to guns.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
So it's not his addiction to the drug that caused him to desire another fix enough to steal...so it's unrelated to drugs? Not exactly

How wouldnt they have guns? They get their guns illegally, ITS ALREADY ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO HAVE GUNS AND THEY HAVE THEM ANYWAY. what arent you understanding!?

Yeah, drug related....not drug crimes.....if you were talking about drug related crimes...well, that's just stupid since a lot of gun related crimes are also related to drugs...so, what the hell is your nonexistent point?

Yeah, you keep repeating that, point is, in other countries where the guns are not as easily to get gun deaths are lower....

A gun ban won't under no circumstances increase the crime rate...

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak

America has such ludicris gun crime rate because people are afraid and rased as such. They're also ignorant on how to properly handle guns. America has more violence than any other country period; gun related non-gun related or otherwise.

The real question is, why is that? Some people can have a gun on them their entire lifetime and never use it. The gun isn't the cause of killing people, it's the retard behind the trigger. More smart people = less gun crime AND less accidents related to guns.

Again, how does this 'fear' thing promote a rise in gun crime ONLY? Why not knife crime, or good old fashioned fist crime? Don't try and make out they are higher as well. They ain't. And even if they were- 300 times higher? Doubt they would ever make that.

Meanwhile, is your implication that Americans are more likely to be stupid?

Yes, and to be honest I support that. I'm growing up with the next generation of American Idiots. (No pun intended)

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Again, how does this 'fear' thing promote a rise in gun crime ONLY? Why not knife crime, or good old fashioned fist crime? Don't try and make out they are higher as well. They ain't. And even if they were- 300 times higher? Doubt they would ever make that.

Meanwhile, is your implication that Americans are more likely to be stupid?

All crime is high in America. What the hell is your point? We're a violent nation, probably the most violent first world country.

And gun crime is highest because instead of injuring someone so they can come back and kick your ass, guns kill. Why risk getting beat when its so easy to get an illegal gun and just finish off whoever you're fighting with? And that's fear, if it wasnt clear enough.

Some people need to spend a few nights in an American urban ghetto.

and yes, Americans are more likely to be stupid. we voted bush in, twice, after all.

Well umm...yes! Live here awhile and you'll find out...

You can't blame an object for a problem. It's the people who handle them. The same could be used with any object....Gee at one time Books were evil, and people burned them because of fear along with people who owned persecuted....I know that's different, but still.....you can't blame an object.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well umm...yes! Live here awhile and you'll find out...

You can't blame an object for a problem. It's the people who handle them. The same could be used with any object....Gee at one time Books were evil, and people burned them because of fear along with people who owned persecuted....I know that's different, but still.....you can't blame an object.

Wow...this example is proof that Americans are stupid....

Originally posted by Bardock42
Wow...this example is proof that Americans are stupid....

Why? Because she's right? Only an idiot thinks that an inanimate object is the cause of anything, instead of the stupid people who handle them.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Why? Because she's right? Only an idiot thinks that an inanimate object is the cause of anything, instead of the stupid people who handle them.

I'd say that guns certainly are a big part of the reason why there is gun death.....maybe I'm stupid because of it, but I stick with it.

I like that ol' saying about 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'. It's a lovely load of absolute nonsense.

'ice doesn't make things cold, people make things cold'

'running doesn't make you tired, legs make you tired'

etc...

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
I like that ol' saying about 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'. It's a lovely load of absolute nonsense.

And how do people kill people, hmmm? Guns? knives?

Think about your statement.

'By bullets entering the body and causing irreparable damage' is the general understanding of how guns facilitate killing.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
'By bullets entering the body and causing irreparable damage' is the general understanding of how guns facilitate killing.

Obviously so, but in order to eject that bullet what must first happen?

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
And how do people kill people, hmmm? Guns? knives?

Think about your statement.

You can't abolish people though (also I wish you could)

Well what about this, one person with a gun shoots another.....what if you take the gun out of this equation?

I painted another picture to make it easier for you:

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Obviously so, but in order to eject that bullet what must first happen?

Ahh, 'leading questions'..."How do I love thee? let me count the ways..."

Surely, you are not being as simplistic as your line of questioning would lead me to believe? However, if you are, then I'm sure you don't need me to answer your banal question of accountability. The availability of the weapon directly results in the accessibility of killing.

More guns = more deaths. Less guns = less deaths. Is that simple enough for you?

I will agree with Arachnoidfreak that our crime rate is as it is because of ignorant mis-use of weapons in general. Human beings throughout history fought and killed millions of thousands of people for thousands of years without guns. What's the problem now? Are we trying to deny our caveman emmotions that we very well still carry with us, the very thing that makes us humans in the first place? It's obvious to me here that probably not even half of us who visit these forums have ever been shot, stabbed, or even took a good ass whoppin. Whether you want to believe it or not, that is the basis of human nature. We are animals.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I will agree with Arachnoidfreak that our crime rate is as it is because of ignorant mis-use of weapons in general. Human beings throughout history fought and killed millions of thousands of people for thousands of years without guns. What's the problem now? Are we trying to deny our caveman emmotions that we very well still carry with us, the very thing that makes us humans in the first place? It's obvious to me here that probably not even half of us who visit these forums have ever been shot, stabbed, or even took a good ass whoppin. Whether you want to believe it or not, that is the basis of human nature. We are animals.

Yeah, maybe animals shouldn't have acces to automatic weapons....

Also, how do you explain that this "animal behaviour" seems to be especially high in......the US?

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Ahh, 'leading questions'..."How do I love thee? let me count the ways..."

Surely, you are not being as simplistic as your line of questioning would lead me to believe? If you are not, then I'm sure you don't need me to answer your banal question of accountability. The availability of the weapon directly results in the accessibility of killing.

More guns = more deaths. Less guns = less deaths. Is that simple enough for you?

Don't be stupid. You know that it takes a human being to pull a trigger as well as it takes a human being to throw a knife. If you cannont see that the actions of a man shooting another man with a gun was not done by a human's ability to do so, then you are obviously blind by some apparent luxury sugar coat on life.

I want to know what the guys on the right are saying...

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
More guns = more deaths. Less guns = less deaths. Is that simple enough for you?


Quickly destroy all knives with blades over 4 inch's as well!

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, maybe animals shouldn't have acces to automatic weapons....

Perhaps not. What is your point?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Also, how do you explain that this "animal behaviour" seems to be especially high in......the US?

I never said that this "animal behaviour" was high in......the US.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Don't be stupid. You know that it takes a human being to pull a trigger as well as it takes a human being to throw a knife. If you cannont see that the actions of a man shooting another man with a gun was not done by a human's ability to do so, then you are obviously blind by some apparent luxury sugar coat on life.

Oh dear, it would appear you are as simplistic as I feared.



Oh, dear! Another one! What is the purpose of a gun other than to kill or maim? What are the purposes of a knife?

(Hint: Notice the pluralisation of 'purpose' when applied to a knife)

Originally posted by Soleran
Quickly destroy all knives with blades over 4 inch's as well!

Yeah, those are pointless as well.


Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Perhaps not. What is your point?



I never said that this "animal behaviour" was high in......the US.

Are you kind of slow in the head?


No, you said that killing others is animal behaviour....and that just happens to be high in the US.....

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
I want to know what the guys on the right are saying...

All you've done was show me a stick figure shooting/killing another stick figure, nothing more. The figures on the right... I have no idea. Maybe they're playing cowboys and indians.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
All you've done was show me a stick figure shooting/killing another stick figure, nothing more. The figures on the right... I have no idea. Maybe they're playing cowboys and indians.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Are you kind of slow in the head?

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
I want to know what the guys on the right are saying...

As you wish:

Originally posted by Bardock42
Are you kind of slow in the head?

Yes I am quite slow, infact. Only when you try to dodge my point and twist it into something that it's not.


Originally posted by Bardock42
No, you said that killing others is animal behaviour....and that just happens to be high in the US.....

So what if it is? Wouldn't you say that it was quite animal-like? Just a little uncivilized? More barbaric than sophisticated just like an animal?

Originally posted by Bardock42
As you wish:

That's f*cking beautiful! I'm crying right now. That little dude deserves to live, he's so friendly.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Oh dear, it would appear you are as simplistic as I feared.



Oh, dear! Another one! What is the purpose of a gun other than to kill or maim? What are the purposes of a knife?

(Hint: Notice the pluralisation of 'purpose' when applied to a knife)

Oh dear, it would appear that you have no commen sense as I feared.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Yes I am quite slow, infact. Only when you try to dodge my point and twist it into something that it's not.




So what if it is? Wouldn't you say that it was quite animal-like? Just a little uncivilized? More barbaric than sophisticated just like an animal?

What the hell. Yes it is uncivilized. But does having guns around make the situation any better?

Originally posted by Bardock42
As you wish:


So what exactly are you attemtping to depcit there Bardock42? The first picture is what 2 people in a fast draw contest? The second picture is 2 dumbass's what are you attempting to show other then your quality art?

"Oh, dear! Another one! What is the purpose of a gun other than to kill or maim? What are the purposes of a knife?"

A blade over 4 inch's, what does the general public need with a knife larger then that?

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Oh dear, it would appear that you have no commen sense as I feared.
Yeah, that's me. I'm the one trying to argue against guns facilitating the killing of people...

Originally posted by Bardock42
What the hell. Yes it is uncivilized. But does having guns around make the situation any better?

Become involved in a situation of armed robbery first and then ask yourself that question.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Become involved in a situation of armed robbery first and then ask yourself that question.


If you are being robbed by an "armed" robber you would be a dumbshit if you pulled a gun on someone that has you "covered" if its a one on one setting. Not a really good way to justify gun ownership.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Become involved in a situation of armed robbery first and then ask yourself that question.

So....slow

If there are no guns there is no armed robbery....get it?

Originally posted by Soleran
So what exactly are you attemtping to depcit there Bardock42? The first picture is what 2 people in a fast draw contest? The second picture is 2 dumbass's what are you attempting to show other then your quality art?

"Oh, dear! Another one! What is the purpose of a gun other than to kill or maim? What are the purposes of a knife?"

A blade over 4 inch's, what does the general public need with a knife larger then that?

Left side, someone gets shot...right side same situation but without a gun....it's a joke...thanks for making me explain it.


I mean seriously, I came in here not being for a ban of guns anywhere, but the sheer stupidity of the arguments of the pro-gun people makes me slowly reconsider....

Originally posted by Soleran
If you are being robbed by an "armed" robber you would be a dumbshit if you pulled a gun on someone that has you "covered" if its a one on one setting. Not a really good way to justify gun ownership.

Talk about being simplistic. Perhaps I'm a bit too experienced in such things, but there are alternatives to pulling out a gun my friend.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Talk about being simplistic. Perhaps I'm a bit too experienced in such things, but there are alternatives to pulling out a gun my friend.
Yeah...not pulling out a gun.

Better obviously not having a gun in the first place.

Even better, the robber not having a gun in the first place.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I mean seriously, I came in here not being for a ban of guns anywhere, but the sheer stupidity of the arguments of the pro-gun people makes me slowly reconsider....

I think all the pro-gun(g-ho) cats should be given a bunch of guns, a few tabs of bad acid mixed with paint thinner, and then placed in a small room with no windows for 24 hours.

I'm sure they'd all work something out...

Originally posted by Bardock42
So....slow

If there are no guns there is no armed robbery....get it?



Left side, someone gets shot...right side same situation but without a gun....it's a joke...thanks for making me explain it.


I mean seriously, I came in here not being for a ban of guns anywhere, but the sheer stupidity of the arguments of the pro-gun people makes me slowly reconsider....

So....slow

A common criminal would get a weapon anyways. Get it? He or she is a criminal, therefore they commit crimes, therefore they break rules and regulations, therefore they BREAK laws. Simply banning guns will not stop anyone from getting leathal weapons anyways.

Even better, the robber not having a gun in the first place.


He's a criminal, obeying gun laws isn't his first priority obviously. So whether or not criminals have guns has no impact on gun bans anyway. They will continue to pack.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
So....slow

A common criminal would get a weapon anyways. Get it? He or she is a criminal, therefore they commit crimes, therefore they break rules and regulations, therefore they BREAK laws. Simply banning guns will not stop anyone from getting leathal weapons anyways.

One more rule to break....would decrease the amount of gun related crimes.

Also, the problem is "normal" people getting all crazy and killing their neighbours with guns they have.....

Seriously, I happen to live in a country where it is hard to access a gun....and I have no fear of ever getting shot...it's a nice feeling....

Originally posted by Soleran
Even better, the robber not having a gun in the first place.


He's a criminal, obeying gun laws isn't his first priority obviously. So whether or not criminals have guns has no impact on gun bans anyway. They will continue to pack.

Wrong.

Originally posted by Bardock42
One more rule to break....would decrease the amount of gun related crimes.

Also, the problem is "normal" people getting all crazy and killing their neighbours with guns they have.....

Seriously, I happen to live in a country where it is hard to access a gun....and I have no fear of ever getting shot...it's a nice feeling....

Well I live in a part of the US where damn near 80% of the population has a gun in their house and guess what there is maybe one shooting a year and its done in a robbery or such. Owning a gun doesn't mean people run out and shoot people. So I know that feeling also and there are guns all around.