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I'd say Sauron, seeing as he could probably kill a Gandalf the Grey which managed to kill the Balrog

are balrogs like fire living?

Demons of Shadow and Flame, creations of Morgoth, and pretty much some of his most feared creatures.

Balrogs are Maia, like Gandalf or Sauron. Morgoth didn't create them, he just lured them to evil.

I'd give this to Sauron after a fairly hard battle.

that particular balrog wasn't a very strong one it was a mere shadow of the king of blarogs

yes true he was a week one. If it had been GOTHMOG leader and captain of the balrogs sauron would die. But i feel LOTRs gives a faulse impression of sauron he is strong in the time and age LOTRs is set BUT he is Morgoths right hand man because he is smart and can mess with mens minds and in the early ages his is not known for his streanth but his cunning hense he is a shape shifter so if you have read all tolkien going you would no that sauron would get pummled by most of the balrog (maybe not that weak-ass one on LOTRs)

Sauron was Melkor's second-in-command, and often referred to as Melkor's "greatest success". There is no reason to think, that Sauron would lose against Gothmog.

I think the argument has to be made for physical or combat prowess and other areas of knowledge. Its a well respected fact that Melkor was the mightiest among the Valar, Eru made it so. However physically combat wise he is considered to be outmatched by Tulkas. Think of it as a points system whilst Morgoth had more points than all the other Valar he distributed them in different areas, Tulkas for example put the majority if not all of his "points" into physical combat and prowess thusly especially after Morgoth split his powers between that and his "agents" Tulkas was mightier than he in physical combat.

This could be seen the same with Sauron, as a Maia of Aule his points were probably into the making of things, lore and knowledge. We know he had talents when it came to persuading people it is unlikely that the bulk of his points were in physical combat and so forth and as such it is possible he would have fallen to Gothmog. Being a Balrog they were if my perceptions are right quite build for and based upon combat rather than the making of great works or lore and this is probably where their "points" lay.

The "points" method is somewhat crude but this is how it was explained to me and it makes my point adequately.

Sauron lost in a fight in a giant dog (Huan). A Balrog beats him everytime. Also I do not believe the Balrog in LOTR was weak just not the best. Sauron in the LOTR is weaker than his original form because he does not have the ring and would definitely lose because of it.

Sauron is said to be the greatest servant of Morgoth and that also includes Winged Dragons and the Balrogs.

Sauron > Winged Dragons > Balrogs

Huan defeated Sauron because Huan had help with Lauren with her magical powers that helped weaken Sauron.

The greatest servant does not mean that hes the greatest in combat, in over all power and knowledge yes. Like I said before Melkor was the "greatest" of the Valar but Tulkas could at least match if not better him in physical combat.

After he gave up his power to his servants. I doubt Tolkien would have wrote "Greatest Servant" if that didn't mean he was the greatest.

And you kept saying this point method but Sauron learned his craftsmenship; he didn't come with them.

I know he learned it from Aule, but to learn that would imply that he wouldn't be the best at other things like combat. Just because he wasn't as good as a Balrog in combat wouldn't mean he wasn't the "Greatest Servant" thats too much of a binary choice. Tolkein wrote in balance and summing up all his abilities gives the sum of the whole and whole would indeed be that he was the most powerful of Morgoths servants in a vast array of areas.

Of course if any balrog could defeat him it would have to be the greatest among them, and even then its touch and go. The way I see all Maiar and Valar is that they have specialisations, Radagast being of Yavanna was more in touch with nature, Saurman being also of Aule was great in craft, Sauron being of Aule then I would also see his skill learnt of not would be in craft not in acts of war, a Maia of Tulkas I would see as more warfaring.

One must also ponder, if Sauron with the ring could be killed by a combined effort of Elendil and Gil-Galad would not the greatest of the balrogs stand a similar chance?

I shall look into this more, the question interests me yet the true answer eludes me. Never the less an interesting debate.

Gothmog; this thread is Balrog not Gothmog. Gothmog is the only Balrog to be known by name so if it was him it would say Gothmog vs. Sauron

Luthien helped Huan defeat Sauron by casting a spell on him that weakened him. What's to stop Sauron from shifting his form to become a Balrog or a Winged-Dragon that was said to be stronger then the Balrogs. Sauron was capable of becoming what he wanted; not any Balrog could do this and Sauron was soon unable to do this after the forging of the One Ring or around that time.

About seven posts in someone mentioned Sauron vs Gothmog I was carrying on from that I will gladly admit that against any "normal" Balrog Sauron would win. For example, the one Gandalf fought wouldn't stand a chance. Is there any record of how far Saurons shape shifting powers could go? I know he could take human and elven form, also the form of a wolf, serpent and that of a bat however could he manifest himself as another "Angelic Race" form for example that of another Maiar a Balrog for example. I can find no concrete evidence on either front if he could, or could not I will accept on the central argument
Sauron V an un named Balrog Sauron would likely triumph.

So we agree.

Sauron vs. Gothmog is another story.

Originally posted by Council#13
Demons of Shadow and Flame, creations of Morgoth, and pretty much some of his most feared creatures. Balrogs wherenot created by Morgoth, they where Maiar spirits who joined with him...

He is half right. The Balrogs were originally Maiar, of the same order as Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf, but they became seduced by Morgoth, who corrupted them to his service in the days of his splendour before the creation of Arda. During the First Age, they were among the most feared of Morgoth's forces. When his fortress of Utumno was destroyed by the Valar, they fled and lurked in the pits of Angband. He did make them into what they are known as today but he didn't make them.

But, that being said, Gandalf the Grey was able to kill the Balrog, but, Gandalf the White wasn't able to beat the Witch King, who was created by Sauron with a weaker ring...therefore, Sauron would be able to defeat the balrog.

Gandalf and The Witch King of Angmar never actually fought, their battle was interrupted. However, Gandalf as Gandalf The Grey did hold off ALL nine of the Nazgul for the whole of the night upon Weathertop. He was able to hold his own 1 Vs 9 including the Witch King and he only fled in order to try and hasten to Rivendel and get aid to Frodo. At the battle of Plennor the Witch King was enhanced by Sauron but Gandalf was by this point The White.

If Gandalf The Grey could hold off all nine Nazgul would the enhancement placed on the Witch King really be enough to outmatch all the Nines strength PLUS the additional strength granted to him by his "promotion" to The White? Sauron admittedly would be able to defeat the Balrog but to get to that conclusion by using Gandalf as a comparison may be inaccurate.

I'd go for Sauron, yeah...he seems more powerful than Gandalf....

That or it means that out of the Nine only their captain can defeat Gandalf. Because if that was true then why did the Witch-King ride into Minas Tirith alone to face Gandalf instead of with the others? That proves that Gandalf is greater then the lesser eight but against the Witch-King is another story.

And you did say that Gandalf only defended himself and tried to get to escape. If Gandalf was truly equal to the Nine then he would have tried to go on the attack but instead he tried to flee.

'No,' said Gandalf. 'But he still lived when I left him. Yet he is resolved to stay with the reargurad, lest the retreat over the Pelennor become a rout. He may, perhaps, hold his men together long enough, but I doubt it. He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared.'

For one has come that I feared; that means Gandalf fears the captain alone for he said one.

Or he feared that he would come and thus make it harder for the host of men rather than he feared him personally. If something happens in life and I go "I feared this would happen" it doesn't mean I was shaking in a corner having cold sweats. He tried to flee to draw them away and to head to Rivendel to get help sent out, and for some point he did draw them away. Gandalf defended himself against the nine for some 12 hours by the time of year from sundown to sunrise if in the space of the said period of time they could not cast down Gandalf then I would think he is mightier than them at least in this case. He is also very wise, those who are truly wise know when to attack and when not to, I believe Gandalf percieved it would be best to try and draw them away rather that risk Frodo's and the rings arrival with his battle not yet won. For Aragorn and The Hobbits to arrive with Gandalf mid battle would only make it harder for him to fight seeing as their protection from the Nine would be paramount.

The Witch King rode to Minas Tirith alone to face Gandalf because out of all the Nine he had a chance against him they were most likely equals with Gandalf having slightly more inherent power but some constraints may be laid upon him. Also the Nazgul were instrumental in subduing the rest of the resistance to bring all of them to bear against Gandalf would be a vast misallocation of resources the Witch King would be smarter in combat than to risk that the other Eight probably also feared Gandalf after he became The White, wheras the Witch King did not.

Actaully there is a difference between the Black Captain when he attacked Gandalf with the eight and when he confronted him at Minas Tirith. The Witch-King was infused by Sauron with added demonic force. The Black Captain wasn't at the same strength as before but now was superior.

Gandalf the Grey was lesser then the Nine and Gandalf the White may have come closer to equalling the Nine but at this point the Witch-King was given strength by the Dark Lord of Mordor who was superior then Gandalf the White.

I am aware that the Witch King was enhanced by Sauron. In fact I quoted it myself. I would not say that Gandalf the Grey was lesser than the nine, neither defeated the other but that is a personal opinion and we can battle them all day long and I have a feeling neither side would back down. As such the discussion on this would have no end I fear. Rather to agree to disagree on this point.

Just to be fair; the Nine battled Gandalf for some hours but how the battle happened is unknown. It took a few days for Gandalf to slay the Balrog. That alone shows that Gandalf can endure a lot and that he wouldn't have been able to defeat the Nine either because he would have grown tired (in the Mines of Moria it was shown that Gandalf could in fact become very tired) and thus fell or he would have to flee like he did.

Not to continue this unduly, but I have found a few more quotes which I think are relevant and I would like to share them.

Letter 210 points out:

peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless...

With that being said I would like to reference you to Pg 141 of my version of the book "Chapter VII, The Pyre of Denethor"

"When the dark shadow at the Gate withdrew Gandalf still sat motionless . But Pippin rose to his feet, as if a great weight had been lifted from him; and he stood listening to the horns, and it seemed to him that they would break his heart with joy. And never in after years could he hear a horn blown in the distance without tears starting in his eyes. But now suddenly his errand returned to his memory, and he ran forward. At that moment Gandalf stirred and spoke to Shadowfax, and was about to ride through the Gate ."
(Emphasis Mine)

This to me shows that Gandalf was about to give chase on The Witch King and that he wasn't afraid, more so confident unflinching in the "face" or his enemy.

"Gandalf looked through the gaping Gate, and already on the fields he heard the gathering sound of battle. He clenched his hand . 'I must go,' he said. 'The Black Rider is abroad, and he will yet bring ruin on us. I have no time .'"
(Emphasis Mine)

Gandalf seems anxious to chase down and face the Black Rider to stand up to him. His clenched hand again shows a lack of fear and determination.

"'Can't you save Faramir?' 'Maybe I can,' said Gandalf; 'but if I do, the others will die , I fear. Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this . Even in the heart of our stronghold the Enemy has power to strike us: for his will is that is at work'"
(Emphasis Mine)

Again this seems to imply that Gandalf believes if he was to stand against the Black Rider he could prevent many deaths and sorrow that will occur because he doesn't stand against him.

"Now he dismounted and bade Shadowfax return to his stable. 'For, my friend,' he said, 'you and I should have ridden to the fields long ago , but other matters delay me. Yet come swiftly if I call !'
(Emphasis Mine)

This shows Gandalf's willingness to ride out and face his enemy and whilst other matters delay him he bids Shadowfax to come quickly if he calls, presumably so he may give chase on the Black Rider.

I think maybe there is a vast difference not only between the power of Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White but also with their attitudes and their "fear". Still some interesting lines and ones which never fail to draw me more and more into the story.

Gandalf still sat motionless

Seems like Gandalf wasn't to eager to go after the black captain.

The Black Rider is abroad, and he will yet bring ruin on us. I have no time

Sounds more like Gandalf wanted to save others from the black captain and was willing to put his life on the line; like with the Balrog at Moria. Gandalf knows why he is at Middle-Earth; to help men defeat Sauron. He knew that if anyone had the best chance to stand against the black rider it would be him. Why would Gandalf allow others to be slain if he is capable of trying to prevent that?

(Can't find my ROTK book but) after the passage I posted Gandalf and Denethor continue to speak and Gandalf goes on to say that his strength will be tested and that he knows the black captain is his equal or perhaps even greater.

Once I find the book I will give you the direct passage.

actually, gandalf and all the istari were maia, as has been stated. BUT Olorin (Gandalf) stated in Unfinished Tales "And Manwe said 'Where is Olorin?' and Olorin had just arrived at the end of a long journey, dressed in grey, and Manwe said unto him 'I wish to send Olorin as the third emissary' and Varda replied 'Not the third' and Curumo was angered. But Olorin replied that he was to weak for the task, and that he feared Sauron. And Manwe said it was all the more reason to go." Later it says that by taking the form of the flesh of Arda, their powers would be limited, and that the West would be but a distant vision, only to be allowed to return if they stayed true to their task. Only Olorin stayed true, Curumo fell to evil, Radagast becam enamoured of the birds and beasts and stayed with them, and the "Blue Wizards" went into the east, being sent by the Valar that most likely knew the most about thosse lands. But Olorin was actually LIMITED in his strength when he fought the balrog,so, since he killed it, he was far more powerful than it in actuality, because as the White, he was still far limited in his powers, so the Black Captain could not stand against him at the height of his power, as the Witch King is not the equal of even the Moria balrog. The Nine would fall before him, and even Sauron at full strength would have a good fight on his hands. Gothmog would most likely be slain, saying that it would be a very close fight.In my opinion, Gothmog would fall to Sauron, as Sauron was equal to all the balrogs, only Gothmog himself stood a fraction of a chance, as serving Morgoth, even Sauron was limited, while Morgoth was not. And P.S. Sauron lost the ability to shape shift in the Sinking Of Numenor, as the 14th or 15th king of Numenor marched on Mordor, and Sauron, seeing as how he would not be able to defeat the Numenoreans, hid the One, and surrendered, and was brought to Numenor, only deepining his hatred for them seeing the splendor of their cities. During the time of the 13th king of Numenor, he was recognized by Gil-Galad High King of the Noldor as a servant of Morgoth, whom Gil-Galad had fought against in the War of Wrath if i am correct,and eventually, he worked his way into the deepest of the kings councils, becoming his cheif adviser, and having a temple to Melkor, Lord of Darkness built, and burned people upon its altar, saying Melkor the Mighty would give them immortality as of that of the Eldar. When Ar-Pharazon the last king of Numenor attack Aman and Numenor sank, Sauron perished, but his spirit lived, and fled to utumno most likely, which was nort of the Eastland of Harad. So Sauron practically foresaw that he would have 9 mighty servants, (3 of which were of royal and partisian Numenorean blood) the With King(royal, related to Elendil the Tall and his father Amandil) Morgomir(possibly name suggests it) and another unnamed one. And the Kings Men, (black numenoreans) eventually became his servants once again, in the time of Angmar. Only the Faithful,(still worshipping Eru not Melkor) beacame his worst enemies, as they knew he was a servant of Melkor the Morgoth Bauglir. And in so saying, Sauron was actually far greater than most if not all the Balrogs. can some1 plz reference this to the Akallabeth and Unfinished Tales to verify and correct ne mistakes i made

I don't see how you can infer the Sauron was greater in combat than all the balrogs from that. He was an illusionist, shape shifter and alchemist and he was defeated by Huan one on one (although somewhat weakened), and felled by Isildur.

He was the greatest servant of Morgoth but I doubt he would have survived against two Balrogs and Gothmog given his military prowess would have a good shot at beating him 1-on-1.

Also it should be noted that according to Tolkien the Balrogs were Morgoth's most fearsome servants in battle and they were few of them. No Balrog served Sauron seeing as they were both Maiar.

Sauron was also drowned at sea and survived most probably because of the one ring.

The hierarchy might disagree; Sauron was Morgoth's Lieutenant, implying that he might be able to pull rank.

I thought that it was common knowledge that Sauron > a Balrog...

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
The hierarchy might disagree; Sauron was Morgoth's Lieutenant, implying that he might be able to pull rank.

Theoretically yes. But I'm speaking from the Balrog's perspective. After Morgoth's defeat the Balrog's that survived never cared to ally with Sauron.

And yes Hew, Sauron is most probably greater in combat than a single Balrog, but two Balrogs would be a bit much for Sauron to overcome. And Gothmog was likely a better fighter as well.

but you are forgetting that it was Huans destiny to not be slain until he met the greatest wolf to ever live, which as Charcharoth, who was fed by Morgoth himself, and Isildur was a decendent of Beren and Luthien, who faced Morgoth himself and took a Silmaril AND killed Charcharoth, and in actuality, Isildur was part Maiar as well, as Luthien was the daughter of Melian the Maia, e was part Eldar, from King Thingol, and part Man, from Beren. And yes, the One is the reason Sauron lived, but uu r forgetting that during the War of the Jewels, Sauon never entered combat because of his rank, the same as Morgoth never did, they knew they would be the sole focus of attack, and most likely perish. Oh and i just remebered the "Blue Wizards" were sent by Orome the Hunter.

Originally posted by Incanus
but you are forgetting that it was Huans destiny to not be slain until he met the greatest wolf to ever live, which as Charcharoth, who was fed by Morgoth himself, and Isildur was a decendent of Beren and Luthien, who faced Morgoth himself and took a Silmaril AND killed Charcharoth, and in actuality, Isildur was part Maiar as well, as Luthien was the daughter of Melian the Maia, e was part Eldar, from King Thingol, and part Man, from Beren. And yes, the One is the reason Sauron lived, but uu r forgetting that during the War of the Jewels, Sauon never entered combat because of his rank, the same as Morgoth never did, they knew they would be the sole focus of attack, and most likely perish. Oh and i just remebered the "Blue Wizards" were sent by Orome the Hunter.

Gothmog had the same rank as Sauron and didn't mind wading into the front lines against guys who could kill 10 trolls single handedly.

Isildur had some Maiar blood but is was diluted by 1000's of years and over 20 mortal generations. Melian the Maia Isildur's is descended from wasn't all that powerful either Charcharoth, Turin and others were mightier than she was.

Anyway it's far fetched to say Sauron was greater in combat than more than one Balrog, considering that a single Balrog could match him for combat prowess (Dune's Bane). Sauron would be favorite against one unheralded Balrog (like Dune's Bane) but no more than that.

but Durins Bane could have been a powerful balrog, it was never said, and if it was the match of sauron, he could probly handle at least 2 weak ones,possibly the 3 weakest, as not all maia were powerful. Because, since maia are of the same race as the Valar, they are just the weaker ones. I f they were far more powerful is some cases, and slightly more [powerful, i a few, then they could be equal of the Valar. Well, at least Mandos and Lorien or something. Maybe Nienna. And Melian the maia was able to hold off all the armies of Angband from Doriath.and Gothmog had all the balrogs AND a huge troll guard with him at all times. plus Turin was a freind of Thingols somewhere in his family i for got where so he was allowed to cross, and it was Berens destiny to pass thru, see Luthien Tinuviel, and eventually claim a Silmaril, for if he died crossing the border, then Numenor wouldnt have existed, and Elwing was descended from him, and she wedded Earendil, who is practically the only reason it was shown to the Valar the state of the world, thereby bringing about the downfall of Morgoth. So u cannt make desicions on how "powerful" they were just because they could cross the border. Oh and I just realized, Morgoths ruin WAS brought from Fingolfin, as Earendil was a DESCENDENT OF HIM, thruu Idril Celebrindal. =-) i just figured it out=-) Plus Gothmog was almost killed by Feanor, but another Balrog lashed a whip of fire on his legs, and Gothmog smote his helm, and a white flame lept up. Which means, Gothmog would have died, and im pretty sure Sauron could handle Feanor in combat.

Originally posted by Incanus
Plus Gothmog was almost killed by Feanor, but another Balrog lashed a whip of fire on his legs, and Gothmog smote his helm, and a white flame lept up. Which means, Gothmog would have died, and im pretty sure Sauron could handle Feanor in combat.

Actually Gothmog had no problems with Feanor and given that Feanor was arguably the most powerful elf to ever live, was likely more powerful in spirit than Sauron himself.

Feanor remember poured his spirit into the creation of the Silmarils and created other artifacts of power that no one could duplicate not even the Valar. Gothmog wounded Feanor several times (and only Feanor's powerful spirit allowed him to fight on) he later died from those wounds and his body turned to ash as his powerful spirit left his body.

It was Fingon not Feanor, who was killed through a sneak attack from a Balrog which helped Gothmog smash his head fatally, and the text says that Fingon held his own (he wasn't winning) and it was Gothmog who "cut a dalk wedge through" the host of men and elves.

if i remember correctly. in the fellowship of the ring, it was stated clearly that the balrog in moria, aka durin's bane was one of power to be feared second only to the dark lord sauron. dont remember who it was who said it, either gandalf or the fellowship when talking to galadriel, and he was defeated in the end by gandalf and gandalf admits and is stated many times to be weaker than sauron. also being descended from a maier or valar doesnt necessarily make u stronger than an elf. seeing as thingol has already slain a balrog. and the feats of feanor are by far superior to sauron , even with the one ring. id also recon that fingolfin was greater than sauron even with the one ring and earendil cud also be compareable. lets also remember that the creating of the sylmarils is feat that no valar cud replicate.

id say that sauron WITHOUT the one ring cud lose to gothmog 4/10 but WITH the one ring, i dont think so.

That's what I was saying. Feanor had a poweful spirit and just like Hurin or Turin were for Men, Feanor was a uniquely powerful Elf. And Gothmog wounded him several times, injuries that eventually killed Feanor. The text is quite clear in talking about how Feanor remarkably fought on, this was because the strength of his spirit, which was so powerful it incinerated his body when he died.

Also Gothmog was defeated by one of the mightiest elves Echthelion via a desperation attack, Gothmog had wounded him several times (one of his arms had been paralized) and Echthelion sacrificed himself to kill Gothmog.

Huan, Luthien and Isildur never needed to sacrifice their lives defeating Sauron. Gothmog was powerful in combat.

As far as Durin's Bane goes (I'd favor Sauron over him) but Sauron was also defeated by less than Gandalf.

^actually, many people forget that feanor was WEAKNED at the time he fought outnumbered against the balrogs. he had put much of his SPIRIT in the creation of the sylmarils and that was one of the reasons they cudnt be replicated. he was LESS than what he usually was when he died.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^actually, many people forget that feanor was WEAKNED at the time he fought outnumbered against the balrogs. he had put much of his SPIRIT in the creation of the sylmarils and that was one of the reasons they cudnt be replicated. he was LESS than what he usually was when he died.

He was not at the "peak of his might" but he was far from weakened. Even in death his spirit was like fire, incinerating his body as it passed to the halls of the dead. Feanor would have sent Sauron running, Sauron was ever sneaky and prone to retreat when he didn't have all the advantages.

i sould have sworn it was feanor that was attacked from behind...... but anyways, just beacause he was extroardinarily powerful, dosnt mean he was a great warrior, even tho he was. If u refer to that "points" system thingy described earlier, then most of Feanors points would have been into crafting, like most of the Noldor, hence their friendship with the dwarves later. And the reson he could even MAKE the Silmarils, or he wouldnt have had the skill. He was named the spirit of fire because he was very active, not because it was so potent, but yeah he did turn into ash. And where did it say Gothmog or Ecthelion was paralyzed when he died? My book didnt say that, it just said he was killed. You are forgetting Gothmog, being a balrog, had immense strength because he was a balrog, being a very powerful maiar, and having that size, strength, and ability to take damage, u forget Sauron could possibly take the form of a balrog, who says he cant? As long as it was in the First Age, he could. End of the second and entire third, he wouldnt but thats a different story..... And still you forget that Huan would not be killed until later, when Charcharoth, ENHANCED BY A SILMARIL, killed him.

I think it is interesting that Gandalf the White = Sauron and Gandalf the Gray = Durin's Bane. It clearly doesn't decide the match but it is definitely worth considering.

Originally posted by Incanus
i sould have sworn it was feanor that was attacked from behind...... but anyways, just beacause he was extroardinarily powerful, dosnt mean he was a great warrior, even tho he was. If u refer to that "points" system thingy described earlier, then most of Feanors points would have been into crafting, like most of the Noldor, hence their friendship with the dwarves later. And the reson he could even MAKE the Silmarils, or he wouldnt have had the skill. He was named the spirit of fire because he was very active, not because it was so potent, but yeah he did turn into ash. And where did it say Gothmog or Ecthelion was paralyzed when he died? My book didnt say that, it just said he was killed. You are forgetting Gothmog, being a balrog, had immense strength because he was a balrog, being a very powerful maiar, and having that size, strength, and ability to take damage, u forget Sauron could possibly take the form of a balrog, who says he cant? As long as it was in the First Age, he could. End of the second and entire third, he wouldnt but thats a different story..... And still you forget that Huan would not be killed until later, when Charcharoth, ENHANCED BY A SILMARIL, killed him.

Ecthelion was battered and bruised and could not use one of his arms and in his battle with Gothmog had been dispossessed of his weapons, so he used the long sharp protusion on his helm and died in killing Gothmog as they both drowned.

Charcharoth wasn't really enhanced more like he was getting burnt by the Silmaril and was driven even more insane by the pain. I'd imagine it was more like desperation as the Silmaril was killing him.

@ Incanus, one last point about Huan vs Sauron. I believe in Tolkien's universe a lot of prophecies were self fulfilling unless they came from Morgoth who seemed to be able to will prophecies into reality because he had tainted the fates of the world before it was even born.

So I think it was a self fulfilling prophecy, Huan had assistance and Sauron just didn't have the necessary power/ferocity to defeat Huan. There was no luck or divine intervention involved.

The prophecies about the last battle though are all about divine intervention and Turin will defeat Morgoth by divine providence, the finale in Illuvatar's song.

hmmm yeah ur right he was more in pain, because of the evil inside him, and it was a slightly self fulfilling, but Huan grew impatient, something it had never said he did before, so it COULD have been divine intervention that killed him and Charcharoth. But where did u read about the Dagor Dagollach? i never even seen more than mention........ but Sauroned wasnt weakened, he was just dazed for a second to give Huan a moment to get up because of his malice, Luthien just made Sauron dizzy is all. And it said that "The battle of Huan the Wolfhound and Wolf-Sauron was terrible. tho Huan emerged victorious." Huan, being a hound of Orome, i think it was partly that Sauron was to weak, (to a small degree) and it was Orome that might have helped him win, because Ororme knew about Charcharoth possibly. So it COULD have been a Vala as the reson Huan won.

oh a btw against 2 balrogs + Gothmog Sauorn would stand no chance at all. Against 2 I would say an even fight. Against 1, he would win.Gothmog WAS limited in his powers, as he couldnt shape shift, OR possibly even talk. I know he dragged Hurin to Angband with mockery, but it could have been thru some other form, like orcs or something. And Balrogs are fairly slow in confined places, whats to say Sauron couldnt get Gothmog into a confined place where he couldnt fly, and then hit him in the back? I im pretty sure Sauron could be fast at need........ and it is possible Gothmog would doubt himself with Sauron working his malice in him thru speech.

and four hobbits out ran a balog (durins bane) so couldnt Sauron out run Gothmog? That whip and sword look like u have tio stand still to use them because of the sweeping motions. And lets face it, hobbits rnt very fast, they are SLOWER THAN DWARVES and yes, dwarves are natural sprinters, very dangerous over SHORT distances. (quoted from who else? Gimli son of Gloin) They are still slow though. Both hobbits and Valaraukar.

how is that even hard to decide of course sauron! balrogs srved him saurons master created everything why the hell do you thin orcs trolls ringwraiths goblins dragons spiders ect listen to him because he was 2nd in command! sauron is to morgoth as the witch king is to sauron
morgoth is the creator of everyting evil morgoth was worse than satin !

Originally posted by Allankles
That's what I was saying. Feanor had a poweful spirit and just like Hurin or Turin were for Men, Feanor was a uniquely powerful Elf. And Gothmog wounded him several times, injuries that eventually killed Feanor. The text is quite clear in talking about how Feanor remarkably fought on, this was because the strength of his spirit, which was so powerful it incinerated his body when he died.
But this was not a fight mano e mano between Feanor and Gothmog. There were many other Balrogs attacking Feanor as well.


Yes. But at the time of their battle Ecthelion's sheild arm was useless. Also Gothmog was unable to best Hurin and Fingon without the intervention of other Balrogs.


FIrst Huan and Luthien were working togther. Plus Luthien is insanly powerful and was even able to put Morgoth to sleep. HUan is also powerful and was able to kill Carcharoth, a very powerful foe. Second, Isildur never beat Sauron... He was killed by Gil-Galad and Elendil, but managed to kill both in the process. Isildur than simply cut the ring of Sauron's "dead" body.

Regardless, Ancalgon or Glaurung are more powerful than either.

No, Gothmog would kill Glaurung, Ancalagon would only win due to the3 fact that he can fly. Real high.

Originally posted by Incanus
No, Gothmog would kill Glaurung, Ancalagon would only win due to the3 fact that he can fly. Real high.
Gothmog had a hard time with Hurin, Glaurung dominated, literally, Turin in seconds. Also Glaurung was able to route entire armies. b

Glarunbg only mtook Turin because of the facts of 1: Turin was human, and suceptible to his Dragon Eyes, and 2: He can bvreath fire, which cant kill Gothmog.

Besides, would you run if you saw Gothmog first, or just avoid him, then run when a giant lizard thing breathing fire comes out and tries to kill you?

Originally posted by ares834
Gothmog had a hard time with Hurin, Glaurung dominated, literally, Turin in seconds. Also Glaurung was able to route entire armies. b

Gothmog killed Men and Elves by the bucketful in the Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (where he cut a bloody swath through the armies of Men and Elves) and the Battle of Gondolin. Only exceptional Elves and Men held their own against him and even then, not for very long.

Feanor fought Gothmog one on one and was said to have been wounded several times, you also have to remember Feanor had Elves around him in the Dagor Bragollach.

Feanor could kill Glaurung. He held his own against multiple balrogfs for a while.

dont forget, this was faenor AFTER he forged the silmarils,sealing a part of his soul in them and weakening himself.

True

point being, faenor rapes EVERYONE. with the possible exception of the highest valar or morgoth or bombadil.


i.e. faenor is a rapist.

hahaha if he lived longer he would have raped Luthien then what, did he rape Varda or something? ptehrwise he wouldnt rape everyone

Originally posted by ares834
Not as impssive as this.
"There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart."



And didn't Gothmog drive "a dark wedge" through the hosts of Men And Elves before he killed Fingon? It's a similar feat.

Glaurung would get killed by a Balrog. His fire breath would have no effect on a fire spirit like a Balrog and if he came within biting range he'd get destroyed by a giant Balrog axe or mace.

The Maiar and Valar would take him, and give Turin fire proof armor and he'd repeat his feat of killing Glaurung.

what was tolkiens description of a balrog did the movies just hake up aton of bs or was it accurate ?

Originally posted by Morgromir
what was tolkiens description of a balrog did the movies just hake up aton of bs or was it accurate ?
Most likely smaller roughly twice a tall as a man, and man shaped. It was not "on fire" and was a dark figure until its mane blazes with fire. It is unkown if balrogs are winged and there is a huge debate over this. He gives a breif description "'What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape, maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.'
Ultimately Tolkien leaves it to our imagination how it looks.

hmm thats better than the movie balrog

Originally posted by Morgromir
hmm thats better than the movie balrog

The movie does poorly with the shadows. Because they were supposed to be beings of shadow and fire according to Tolkien, their shapes were vague.

But the movie was accurate on the fire whip but didn't add a second weapon. Balrogs tended to have a whip and another primary weapon.

Also to further support the idea that Balrogs were giants, they were able to kill armies of Men, Elves and Dwarves. The movie Balrog (Durin's Bane) had single handedly killed armies of Dwarves during the thrid age.

This suggests large size, since they mostly used melee weapons, not projectile magic.

1. in the movie, the balrog DID have a sword which, just like the book, was broken on gandalf's enchanted blade.

2. u must realise that tolkien is EXTREMELY inconsistant. at one time, durin's bane is a power second only to the dark lord and himself a maier, and a little bit later, hes dead by FALLING from a tower.................

similarly, morgoth is thes strongest being in middle earth and a former valar, and a little later his eye is popped by a giant eagle and his foot is permanently damaged by fingolfin.

the same with sauron, how was isildur able to cut his finger?

Because he used Narsil. Or what was left of it, a dwarven sword enchanted by elves, that would cut. Gandalfs sword belonged to Turgon.... He killed another balrog and it was kind of a coincindence......



Translate my sig and you will find out....... Was inscribed alonbg Glamdring......

the same sword which broke under his footfall.

That was movie ****. In the book it broke beneath Elendil when he fell. (He was hit by a giant guy with a big metal stick, and he had armor on and was 7'11 thats alot of weight.)

the POINT im making is that they are very inconcistant. think about it, the trees were made by ONE valar{im a bit hazy} and not even the strongest and then they are unable to recreate the silmarils which only have a PART of the tree's light.

balrogs dying by falling from towers and being stabbed by helmets. when infact they are maier.

etc etc.

Originally posted by Incanus
Gandalfs sword belonged to Turgon.... He killed another balrog and it was kind of a coincindence......

I don't recall Turgon killing a Balrog. And even if he did in the Silmarillion it would be before the Balrog "reboot" where Balrogs were made more powerful and less numerous, before it Tuor was able to slay 5 balrogs and Ecthelion 4.

Originally posted by ares834
But he was clearly leading a host of enemies when he created the wedge. It's not a similar feat. Infact the proof is there as Gothmog and another Balrog took down Fingon together.

Glaurung had a host of allies as well. And Gothmog was always leading the host. He was Morgoth's military commander after all.

The text says "Gothmog", not "Gothmog and" drove "a dark wedge" through the hosts of Men and Elves. And his fight with Fingon was one-on-one it was a ceremonial battle.

Gothmog had ripped through the army to face Fingon personally. Fingon himself was clearly depicted fighting Gothmog alone, it is only at the end when another Balrog wrapped its whip around Fingon's neck allowing Gothmog to kill Fingon.


Originally posted by ares834
Balrogs aren't massive giants. for that demon was double his stature)..."

Double his stature would mean between 12 and 20 ft which is consistent with the depiction of Durin's Bane in the movie. A spirit being about the height of a Troll, that's the definition of a giant.


Originally posted by ares834
By attacking the unprotected underside. I doubt Glaurung is going to flip over and let Gothmog have a good ol' swing.

Almost half his body is underside. The bottom of his neck his entire torso and stomach. And if he's flying at close range he becomes more susceptible to a single fatal blow from an axe. And besides, I doubt Dragons were as powerful as Ainur, since it is Ainur that created them.

Originally posted by ares834
Turin tried to attack Glaurung once but the dragon placed Turin under his spell thus he was helpless and defenseless. No way Turin could have beat him in a fair one on one fight. Heck he admits this in The Children of Hurin.

Using sneaky spells is hardly fair either.

They could be at a slightly mid-long range as well, due to the reach of the whip of fire.



Balrogs wernt only twice as high, they could be twice to three times bigger.

does it matter how BIG balrogs were???? its their MAGIC which gives them power. do u think sauron was BIG?

Originally posted by Allankles
Glaurung had a host of allies as well. And Gothmog was always leading the host. He was Morgoth's military commander after all.
True.


Perhaps. But sweaping apart the two armies if far more impressive then driving in a "dark wedge".


I never said diffrently. I said "Gothmog and another Balrog took down Fingon together." WHich is true.


Assuming Glorfindel is a normal sized elf double his stature would be roughly 12 feet, not 20. 20 would be more then thrice his stature. Also Gothmog was small enough to fit in a well and be tripped by a Elf, and Durin's Bane was able to fit through a doorway in Moria. And the Balrog in the move is far larger than 20 feet. His headd is almost the size of Gandalf.


First Glaurung isn't going to be "flying at close range". His unprotected undersides are going to be on the ground.


No mere Ainur created the Dragons. Even more we don't know what dragons are. However theu have spirits and are therefore no normal beasts, more than likely they are bodies filled with a maiar similar to the great eagles and Werewolves. Or perhaps they are filled with Morgoth's spirit itself



Sneaky spells? It was hardly sneaky and using spells in a middle of a fight is perfectly fair.

Oh yeah, Galurung cant fly, he was made BEFORE the winged dragons...... But dude, you are making Glaurung sound wtf uber., He wasnt.

ive always thought that encalgaphon was much greater than glaurung. the later merely had psychic powers

I also agree. Ancalagon is most likely the most powerful of the Dragons.

Too bad his debut went the way of the Titanic.

leons a big debby downer its not changing the facts its changing the situation the wind isnt going to blow the same way for eternity and plus several of tolkiens books were written as if he himself was voicing it so ofcoarse its going to change thats what makes it more realistic in form


(and yes i didnt use periods capitals commas or any other crap)

Originally posted by Morgromir
leons a big debby downer its not changing the facts its changing the situation the wind isnt going to blow the same way for eternity and plus several of tolkiens books were written as if he himself was voicing it so ofcoarse its going to change thats what makes it more realistic in form


(and yes i didnt use periods capitals commas or any other crap)
You know you really should use punctuation so we can understand your posts.

Originally posted by ares834
Assuming Glorfindel is a normal sized elf double his stature would be roughly 12 feet, not 20. 20 would be more then thrice his stature. Also Gothmog was small enough to fit in a well and be tripped by a Elf, and Durin's Bane was able to fit through a doorway in Moria. And the Balrog in the move is far larger than 20 feet. His headd is almost the size of Gandalf.

That would put the Balrog between 12 - 18 ft (18 is close to 20 ft as a rough estimate) since "double" is also rough estimate. Even if we take 12 ft, that would make them giants.

I don't remember Durin's size, but he was no more than 3 times the height of Gandalf from what I remember, fairly consistent with "double" the height of Men and Elves.

And Moria had huge archways, it wasn't some normal sized complex. And fitting into a well only requires that your width can fit through it. It doesn't mean you have to fit in lengthwise.

Originally posted by ares834
First Glaurung isn't going to be "flying at close range". His unprotected undersides are going to be on the ground.

I forgot he was a ground Dragon. Doesn't much help his chances of avoiding a giant axe.


Originally posted by ares834
No mere Ainur created the Dragons. Even more we don't know what dragons are. However theu have spirits and are therefore no normal beasts, more than likely they are bodies filled with a maiar similar to the great eagles and Werewolves.

Dragons according to Tolkien were bred by Morgoth. Glaurung was said to have been bread probably from a terrestial beast and then corrupted and infused with sapience by Morgoth. So I doubt a terrestial being is going to be more powerful than an Ainur.


Originally posted by ares834
Sneaky spells? It was hardly sneaky and using spells in a middle of a fight is perfectly fair.

By sneaky I don't mean unfair, it just means non-straightforward.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Sauron lost in a fight in a giant dog (Huan). A Balrog beats him everytime. Also I do not believe the Balrog in LOTR was weak just not the best. Sauron inHua the LOTR is weaker than his original form because he does not have the ring and would definitely lose because of it. Gothmog wouldve lost against Huan because it was Huans fate to die by fighting the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world

Sauron is immortal as proved by the drowning of Numenor Im pretty sure none of the balrogs had that ability I also read in a post that Sauron didnt lead any armies into battle which is untrue"Sauron greatest & most terrible of the servant ofMorgoth came against Orodreth,he took Minas Tirith by assault"i

Originally posted by leonheartmm
if i remember correctly. in the fellowship of the ring, it was stated clearly that the balrog in moria, aka durin's bane was one of power to be feared second only to the dark lord sauron. dont remember who it was who said it, either gandalf or the fellowship when talking to galadriel, and he was defeated in the end by gandalf and gandalf admits and is stated many times to be weaker than sauron. also being descended from a maier or valar doesnt necessarily make u stronger than an elf. seeing as thingol has already slain a balrog. and the feats of feanor are by far superior to sauron , even with the one ring. id also recon that fingolfin was greater than sauron even with the one ring and earendil cud also be compareable. lets also remember that the creating of the sylmarils is
feat that no valar cud replicate.

id say that sauron WITHOUT the one ring cud lose to gothmog 4/10 but WITH the one ring, i dont think so. Sauron created the rings of power to say that an elf is superior to Sauron who I believe was probably the most powerful of all the maia good or evil is absurd.The Noldor were powerful &were blessed with skills by Eru but Sauron was far superior

Your grammar sucks so much. Your English is so bad, and it's making me so sad.

Dat necro

And Sauron stomps

We've already settled this... Gothmog beats Suaron in a one v one h2h battle.

If by "we've already settled this" you mean you've claimed as such while also showing a distinct lack of understanding of the source material, sure. If you mean we have come to some mutual understanding based on the concrete evidence then certainly not.

Originally posted by ares834
If by "we've already settled this" you mean you've claimed as such while also showing a distinct lack of understanding of the source material, sure. If you mean we have come to some mutual understanding based on the concrete evidence then certainly not. You just summed up Kurupt in virtually all his debates. He often forgets what happens and never supports his opinion with proof just a baseless claim repeater.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We've already settled this... Gothmog beats Suaron in a one v one h2h battle. How does Gothmog beat Sauron when Sauron's feats are better?

Originally posted by ares834
If by "we've already settled this" you mean you've claimed as such while also showing a distinct lack of understanding of the source material, sure. If you mean we have come to some mutual understanding based on the concrete evidence then certainly not.

Coming from you that is rich. If you review the gothmog vs. Sauron thread... you'll notice I was one of the only people to brings facts to the table about Gothmog. This is what it comes down to and there is literally no way around these facts

1. Gothmog was the one leading the armies not Sauron. Sauron was busy practicing his shapeshifting and magic. Morgoth Choose gothmog to lead his troops in battle. Thus, showing who he felt like was the man for the job. More often than not in Tolkien... the best lead from the front... We see this with Feanor... Finrod... Tulkas... The list goes on and on.. even in Middle earth... Aragorn was leading the charge. Gothmog was leading the charge not Sauron for a reason.

2. Gothmog has defeated far superior foes without dying nearly as many times. Defeating the greatest elf alone speaks to this. Feanor was the best or at the very least of the best. Gothmog killed him. Which powerful elf king did Sauron kill that can compare to Feanor? None. That's not even getting into ecth or others at all. Defeating Feanor is better than any Elven Lord Sauron killed

3. Sauron has died many more times than Gothmog. Sure he's come back as well... which does show might... but it also shows a lack of power being killed over and over again. How many times has he died now... Like 5?

4. When Gothmog was around... not one time.. not once was Sauron ordering Gothmog around or leading him and others in battle. Not one time did this ever happen. Why is that? Why is it that Gothmog was the one leading the troops into battle to capture key places morgoth wanted destroyed? He put his best warrior in front and that was Gothmog not Sauron. There's a reason for this. Morgoth is exponentially more powerful and wise than Sauron.. if he could really get the job done better he would've been in charge, he wasn't, gothmog was.

This is how I view it... Sauron is more powerful in the dark arts and was Morgoths best and most prized student. He's known for being an illusionist.. a politician... very powerful wizard. That's all great. Morgoth is a tank and renowned for his fighting abilities. That's is why he was leading the charge. That is why he was said to be equal to Sauron in rank.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Coming from you that is rich. If you review the gothmog vs. Sauron thread... you'll notice I was one of the only people to brings facts to the table about Gothmog.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

1. Gothmog was the one leading the armies not Sauron.

Minas Tirith



Thingol, Melian, Morgoth, Sauron himself, the Valar in general. All the most powerful or among the most powerful in their faction. All didn't lead armies from the front most of the time.

Also, Association fallacy.



He had help for Feanor, Luthien's feats are better than Feanor's, Sauron took her down.

In fact, Gothmog has never actually killed a named character on his own. The one time he fought an elf who mattered by himself he died. Oh...



Gothmog's first death occurred before Sauron's, and he was unable to come back.

Your point has no relevance toward whether or not Gothmog can defeat Sauron, so it is easily dismissed.



Sauron captured the fortress of Minas Tirith in FA457. Gothmog died in FA510. You're objectively wrong here. Feel bad.

Also, Gothmog leading troops more often means nothing to personal power. Yet another Red Herring.

Oh, and you've said this already. Padding the length of your posts to make your argument seem more impressive than it really is is the sign of a weak argument.



Stop confusing Morgoth for Gothmog.

Sauron wins.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Minas Tirith



Thingol, Melian, Morgoth, Sauron himself, the Valar in general. All the most powerful or among the most powerful in their faction. All didn't lead armies from the front most of the time.

Also, Association fallacy.



He had help for Feanor, Luthien's feats are better than Feanor's, Sauron took her down.

In fact, Gothmog has never actually killed a named character on his own. The one time he fought an elf who mattered by himself he died. Oh...



Gothmog's first death occurred before Sauron's, and he was unable to come back.

Your point has no relevance toward whether or not Gothmog can defeat Sauron, so it is easily dismissed.



Sauron captured the fortress of Minas Tirith in FA457. Gothmog died in FA510. You're objectively wrong here. Feel bad.

Also, Gothmog leading troops more often means nothing to personal power. Yet another Red Herring.

Oh, and you've said this already. Padding the length of your posts to make your argument seem more impressive than it really is is the sign of a weak argument.



Stop confusing Morgoth for Gothmog.

Sauron wins.

You don't say... Please post the passage that talks about Gothmog being there for that battle. I've never seen any narration that speaks about him being there. Should I assume all the battles that Gothmog lead, which as we know is many more than Sauron when they were both alive, that Sauron was there even if he wasn't mentioned? Okay, that will just prove my point further. Thanks.

What do you the Valar in general didn't lead from the front.. That couldn't be further from the truth. Tulkas the best warrior always lead from the front. Same with Feanor... Finrond... Fingolfin... Aragorn... Gandalf... shit even the two kinds who attacked Sauron lead from the front. There are more of examples of the best leading from the front than the opposite. Some examples of this not happening doesn't change that it happened most of the time. Which is exactly why Gothmog was placed IN CHARGE and lead from the front.

Why is the narration often quoted of only Gothmog was equal to Sauron in rank. What does this mean? He's actually below Sauron? Explain that to me.

Luthien's feats are not better first off and second.. that was about as PIS as it gets. So she can take somebody out vastly more powerful than Sauron but can't take Sauron out... That is almost the definition of PIS and context.

Gothmog has defeated superior people plain and simple. We can say ohh he had help and try and dismiss them but again that falls flat. It was a BATTLE there was fighting going on all around them. Feanor was not alone he had elves with him and others. Gothmog had help. That's what happens when there is a BATTLE. Gothmog killed Feanor plain and simple. He's killed better people and died far far fewer times. Shit a weaker Balrog battle a maia for days on end and died in the process killing a weaker one. Sauron has gotten killed by flooding...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You don't say... Please post the passage that talks about Gothmog being there for that battle. I've never seen any narration that speaks about him being there. Should I assume all the battles that Gothmog lead, which as we know is many more than Sauron when they were both alive, that Sauron was there even if he wasn't mentioned? Okay, that will just prove my point further. Thanks.

How does Gothmog not leading the conquest of Minas Tirith prove that Gothmog was always leading the armies? It does the opposite, actually.



That must be why he sat around jacking his dick in Valinor during the War of Wrath.



Are you aware of what a logical fallacy is? Because you're making heavy use of the Association Fallacy.

"Feanor and all these other ******* I mentioned were the strongest in their armies led from the front. Gothmog also leads from the front, therefore he is the strongest character on his side."

This is fallacious reasoning.

The fact that there are examples of that not happening only further exposes this point for the illogical mess it is.

Shit, the point is explicitly disproved by Morgoth, far and away the most powerful member of his faction, preferring to lead from the rear. It is also disproved by the dragons, which were able to turn the tide of battle in the War of Wrath where the evil maia failed, despite never being indicated to hold leadership positions and only coming out when they needed to (so either way, they didn't lead from the front).



It means that they are equal in rank. You have a point there son?



Tell me more about how putting Morgoth and his entire ****ing army to sleep is not better than being ganged up on and killed by Balrogs. Because that's Feanor's only relevant ****ing feat.



Cry more about it. Sauron has a feat that you can't argue against, so it's PIS?

Well guess what? Sauron has also warded Numenor from the power of the Valar. Without the One Ring. Sauron's power to contend in some way with the Valar is consistent. Luthien to be fair caught Morgoth off-guard, but it is still a better feat than any of Feanor's.



Luthien's feats are better.



"Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Feanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, whom Ecthelion after slew in Gondolin."

So he was vastly outnumbered and surrounded, both by the normal armies of Angband as well as Gothmog and his Balrogs, and Gothmog only struck him down after he was burned and wounded. Wow man. What a badass. It took him a "long" amount of time to kill Feanor even though he was vastly outnumbered and surrounded.

Of course, Gothmog has never beaten anyone by himself. The one time he tried, he died.



No one cares about your red herrings. As I pointed out, Gothmog's first death happened before Sauron's. He had more time to bring himself back, but couldn't.



Sauron was killed on Numenor by God opening a hole in the world to destroy the entire island of Numenor (because when the Valar tried to do so Sauron stopped them). Compare to Gothmog, who was killed by being pushed into a fountain by a wounded and tired elf.

Originally posted by ares834
Kurupt never has a clue. About anything.

Gothmog is no match for Sauron.