Solid Snake VS Nightwing

Ritoshi

Originally posted by Sam Z
Impressive acrobatic feats, typical for any comicbook character but nowhere near Fox's speed. You also see the area Nightwing was in, to jump on crap and jump downwords. Fox was in a plain room with a Giant metal gear rex with a super machine gun pointed at him all accrosss(and that machine gun covers more area because of the side and more speed because of the power of rex) Like a regular machine gun compared to a planes. Fox was all ready a trained some what above peak Human in his background but then he was enhanced to super human with his Cyborg attachments which increased his Strength,Durability, Speed and reflexes.

Nightwing is fast but it is more on his reflexes than speed. Fox has both and to twirl between all those bullets while more comming at you doing all kind of tricks in a open room, reflected it with his Katana (all those bullets at once in mid air is speed. Also that he reflected Bullets from many soilders in point blank range earlier in the game, and even before that when he cut off revolvers arm he destroyed the place cutting the ceiling all over the room in an instant.

Sam Z

Originally posted by Ritoshi
You also see the area Nightwing was in, to jump on crap and jump downwords. Fox was in a plain room with a Giant metal gear rex with a super machine gun pointed at him all accrosss(and that machine gun covers more area because of the side and more speed because of the power of rex) Like a regular machine gun compared to a planes. Fox was all ready a trained some what above peak Human in his background but then he was enhanced to super human with his Cyborg attachments which increased his Strength,Durability, Speed and reflexes.

Nightwing is fast but it is more on his reflexes than speed. Fox has both and to twirl between all those bullets while more comming at you doing all kind of tricks in a open room, reflected it with his Katana (all those bullets at once in mid air is speed. Also that he reflected Bullets from many soilders in point blank range earlier in the game, and even before that when he cut off revolvers arm he destroyed the place cutting the ceiling all over the room in an instant.

yes

and people, give Snake speed credit he deserves. In only two games he showed speed feats that are comparable to any NW's.

Wally West

Originally posted by Sam Z
yes

and people, give Snake speed credit he deserves. In only two games he showed speed feats that are comparable to any NW's.
Such as...

Sam Z

Originally posted by Wally West
Such as...

Such as dodging Ocelot, Olga, Raven, Helicopter, Fox, Rex, all shotouts with dozens of supersoldiers without getting injured. Enough?

Ritoshi

Originally posted by Sam Z
Such as dodging Ocelot, Olga, Raven, Helicopter, Fox, Rex, all shotouts with dozens of supersoldiers without getting injured. Enough?

*Puts on a wally west mask*

I never playe dthe game..ok iI playe dlike one but like the first level and saw commercials so i believe Snake never showed any speed feats no expression

Sam Z

Originally posted by Ritoshi
*Puts on a wally west mask*

I never playe dthe game..ok iI playe dlike one but like the first level and saw commercials so i believe Snake never showed any speed feats no expression

Wally West

Hilarious. I do actually own MGS 1 and 3, and have completed 2. And I'm sure I own and have read a hell of a lot more Nightwing comics than either of you smile

A.J

only 2 lol ive comleted all 3 lol

Sam Z

Originally posted by Wally West
Hilarious. I do actually own MGS 1 and 3, and have completed 2. And I'm sure I own and have read a hell of a lot more Nightwing comics than either of you smile

ok, then why are you asking about his feats?

The Fake Macoy

He's asking because he's trying to find out what "feats" you're talking about. Snake's good, but he doesn't have Nightwing's agility or speed feats.

Sam Z

Originally posted by The Fake Macoy
He's asking because he's trying to find out what "feats" you're talking about. Snake's good, but he doesn't have Nightwing's agility or speed feats.

Speed, he has. Otherwise he would never be able to dodge Fox.

DarkCrawler

Not really. Fox did not show the same speed against Snake then he showed against those soldiers when he killed them...Snake's bullet dodging feats are nothing compared to Nightwings...Nightwing has dodged lasers etc...

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Not really. Fox did not show the same speed against Snake then he showed against those soldiers when he killed them...Snake's bullet dodging feats are nothing compared to Nightwings...Nightwing has dodged lasers etc...

Fox used all his speed when he fought Snake, that's obvious when you look at his attacks with blade.
Why nothing? What makes you think that Snake dodging bullets is less impressive than NW? Only because NW did it more times? There is no lasers in MGS that's why Snake never had to dodge them.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
Fox used all his speed when he fought Snake, that's obvious when you look at his attacks with blade.
Why nothing? What makes you think that Snake dodging bullets is less impressive than NW? Only because NW did it more times? There is no lasers in MGS that's why Snake never had to dodge them.
I guess most of your Fox feats are from Twin Snakes, which I haven't played. Still, I have now watched this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-819775001829611694&q=gray+fox
No bullet dodging feat Fox does there is better then Nightwings, and he has actually more room there (With REX) then Nightwing has had in some of his. I believe Nightwing could hang with Fox too. He has hurt guys who can survive a building, guys who can rip steel doors off their hinges and guys who are stronger then 100 men etc...

And as for Snake, Nightwing has had simply way more impressive and more difficult bullet dodging feats....only one of Snake's I can remember was dodging Vulcan Raven, and that would be majorly impressive if he had just stood there...but Snake was just running in circles faster then Vulcan could turn with that huge gun of his.

Ritoshi

Nightwing jumped in the batcave.

Snake can't jump in the batcave, why ? ..because there was no batcave for him to jump in, doesn't mean he couldn't...because the batcave wasn't in mgs doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to jump in it....

Thats an example with lasers. Also Comics come out faster than aids so he had the chance to show more feats, Snake can't show alot since he was in barley any games. Maybe when MGS 4 comes out you will see mroe feats and more feats of raiden killing those big metal gear plus sized robots with super speed and more than one at a time with his new cyber ninja suit.

Ritoshi

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Ritoshi
Nightwing jumped in the batcave.

Snake can't jump in the batcave, why ? ..because there was no batcave for him to jump in, doesn't mean he couldn't...because the batcave wasn't in mgs doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to jump in it....

Thats an example with lasers. Also Comics come out faster than aids so he had the chance to show more feats, Snake can't show alot since he was in barley any games. Maybe when MGS 4 comes out you will see mroe feats and more feats of raiden killing those big metal gear plus sized robots with super speed and more than one at a time with his new cyber ninja suit.

But if Person A has greater feats and more appearences then Person B, it still doesn't change the fact that Person A has greater feats...and if Person B hasn't shown feats to compete with them, how can you argue that he can...?

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Ritoshi
Fox is in an open room..Nightwing has shit to jump off of back and forth and while he was jumping down in that pic now one can hit the man with hand guns.

Uh...dodging things in open LARGE room is far more easier then in closed space like this, for example...
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbulletsfromladyv.gif

Originally posted by Ritoshi
As for nightwing being in over 300 comics and snake a couple games...duh he has morefeats because he has more comics.

Not just more feats...better is the key word.

Ritoshi

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Uh...dodging things in open LARGE room is far more easier then in closed space like this, for example...
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbulletsfromladyv.gif

look at the direction he is headed and umm people shooting at him ? How about switch the people with a metal gear with a bigger machine gun/shoots out faster.

And for the record If it was Ninja vs Nightwing..Nightwing would lose.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Ritoshi
Originally posted by DarkCrawler

look at the direction he is headed and umm people shooting at him ? How about switch the people with a metal gear with a bigger machine gun/shoots out faster.

Even the most powerful machine gun in the world shoots with 70 rounds per second. I'd say REX had something like that. Most handheld machineguns shoot out with roughly 10 rounds per second. There were dozen guys shooting at Nightwing. In different directions. That's like 120 bullets per second in different directions compared to Fox's something like 140, but his were shooting on the same place.

Nightwing's feat is more impressive in this pic, for example...
http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbullets39yv.gif

Originally posted by Ritoshi
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
And for the record If it was Ninja vs Nightwing..Nightwing would lose.

Why? Snake is not stronger nor faster then Nightwing and he was still apparently able to defeat Fox...Nightwing's hurt people of Fox's durability before...and is fast enough to dodge that sword, so...

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I guess most of your Fox feats are from Twin Snakes, which I haven't played. Still, I have now watched this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-819775001829611694&q=gray+fox
No bullet dodging feat Fox does there is better then Nightwings, and he has actually more room there (With REX) then Nightwing has had in some of his. I believe Nightwing could hang with Fox too. He has hurt guys who can survive a building, guys who can rip steel doors off their hinges and guys who are stronger then 100 men etc...

And as for Snake, Nightwing has had simply way more impressive and more difficult bullet dodging feats....only one of Snake's I can remember was dodging Vulcan Raven, and that would be majorly impressive if he had just stood there...but Snake was just running in circles faster then Vulcan could turn with that huge gun of his.

Watch this video again. Bullets move with 900meter/second from hand guns. Rex had a heavy machinegun, what means these bullets moved even faster than that. And Fox moved almost as fast as the bullets Rex fired at him. You seriously think that NW moves that fast? Yes, he dodges bullets, but so does Batgirl, Wolverine, DD but their speed is still not a match for Fox's.

NW doesn't have more impressive feats, he only has MORE feats because of his long comicbook hystory. During only two games Snake did things that NW was doing for many years and his feats are as impressive. Remember that shot of Ocelot when Snake wasn't even seeing him? Or may be you thing that during ALL shotouts Snake went through alone he hadn't to dodge bullets? There were scenes when he was fighting dozens of armed guys with no cover near by. There was no other way for him to survive that but to dodge and fire back.

Sam Z

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HNiZpjfX9hQ&search=ocelot

Notice that Snake jumps after the bullet was fired. Again bullets move with the speed 900 m/s.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
Watch this video again. Bullets move with 900meter/second from hand guns. Rex had a heavy machinegun, what means these bullets moved even faster than that. And Fox moved almost as fast as the bullets Rex fired at him. You seriously think that NW moves that fast? Yes, he dodges bullets, but so does Batgirl, Wolverine, DD but their speed is still not a match for Fox's.

Actually, the muzzle velocity of the largest machine gun in history is only about 1000 m/s, whereas most handheld guns have something like 800 m/s. Bigger size doesn't mean that it is majorly faster. And Fox wasn't moving as fast as the bullets. He was moving as fast as the guns were moving, which was still fast, but not bullet speed fast.

Originally posted by Sam Z
NW doesn't have more impressive feats, he only has MORE feats because of his long comicbook hystory. During only two games Snake did things that NW was doing for many years and his feats are as impressive. Remember that shot of Ocelot when Snake wasn't even seeing him? Or may be you thing that during ALL shotouts Snake went through alone he hadn't to dodge bullets? There were scenes when he was fighting dozens of armed guys with no cover near by. There was no other way for him to survive that but to dodge and fire back. largest

Dodging an one revolver shot while not even seeing something is impressive? Nightwing dodges machinegun fire while his back turned and saving someone with ease:
http://img458.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997savesbatman2mm.gif

And Snake's speciality is stealth and guns...I don't remember him dodging lot of things while I was playing the game. Nightwing's speciality is speed and agility, and he has more feats to show that. Feats which are also more impressive.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HNiZpjfX9hQ&search=ocelot

Notice that Snake jumps after the bullet was fired. Again bullets move with the speed 900 m/s.

Bullets from Colt Single Action Army (greatest handgun ever made) highest speed is only 300 m/s...

Not really impressive compared to this...
http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year2001dodgesautomaticgunfire.gif

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Actually, the muzzle velocity of the largest machine gun in history is only about 1000 m/s, whereas most handheld guns have something like 800 m/s. Bigger size doesn't mean that it is majorly faster. And Fox wasn't moving as fast as the bullets. He was moving as fast as the guns were moving, which was still fast, but not bullet speed fast.

OK 800m/s. How so? Look at the video, they show it in slow motion, Fox was moving almost as fast as the bullets.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler Dodging an one revolver shot while not even seeing something is impressive? Nightwing dodges machinegun fire while his back turned and saving someone with ease:
http://img458.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997savesbatman2mm.gif

And Snake's speciality is stealth and guns...I don't remember him dodging lot of things while I was playing the game. Nightwing's speciality is speed and agility, and he has more feats to show that. Feats which are also more impressive.

Again, do you really think Snake went through all those shotouts without dodging? He had no other way or he would've been dead by now and since he was fighting dozens of armed guys I believe he had to dodge multiple gunfire.
The video was aimed to show how fast he moves even comparing to bullet. There are planty of other feats when he dodges gunfire and yet I haven't seen anything that showes that NW is faster.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Bullets from Colt Single Action Army (greatest handgun ever made) highest speed is only 300 m/s...

Not really impressive compared to this...
http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year2001dodgesautomaticgunfire.gif

Unlike these street idiots Snake was fighting and dodging trained soldiers and super soldiers.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
OK 800m/s. How so? Look at the video, they show it in slow motion, Fox was moving almost as fast as the bullets.

I assume you mean the part where he cuts bullets? Fox can move his hands at least faster then Nightwing can move his hands, I give him that. But his dodging feats aren't more impressive. When they show it in slow motion, all that he really does is dodge the bullets while moving through air. Nightwing dodges more difficult amount of bullets and from way more directions while jumping through the air also.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Again, do you really think Snake went through all those shotouts without dodging? He had no other way or he would've been dead by now and since he was fighting dozens of armed guys I believe he had to dodge multiple gunfire.

What kind of shotouts? I don't remember shotouts in game where he had dodged them, other then boss battles. Can you name any?

Originally posted by Sam Z
The video was aimed to show how fast he moves even comparing to bullet. There are planty of other feats when he dodges gunfire and yet I haven't seen anything that showes that NW is faster.

Yeah? Dodging a bullet after its fired? Nightwing does stuff like that all the time. Multiple bullets. He's even faster then Batman.
http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year2001fasterthenbatman8wj.gif

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
Unlike these street idiots Snake was fighting and dodging trained soldiers and super soldiers.

Ex Transsilvanian Militia:
http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year2001dodgesautomaticgunfire.gif

Read the text next time. They are trained soldiers.

the Darkone

Nightwing is a younger version of Batman, Nightwing feats are greater, hell he's been dodging Deathstroke bullets for the past 26 years and he carries some mean mofo guns. Who's better than nightwing is Batman, Deathstroke they been dodging bullets like it was zone dodge.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I assume you mean the part where he cuts bullets? Fox can move his hands at least faster then Nightwing can move his hands, I give him that. But his dodging feats aren't more impressive. When they show it in slow motion, all that he really does is dodge the bullets while moving through air. Nightwing dodges more difficult amount of bullets and from way more directions while jumping through the air also.

No, I was talking about the part when he stands and moves his torso to dodge bullets. And when he runs and jumps he really does it almost as fast as bullets fly. Sorry but NW's dodging feats is still not a match for Fox. Fox is more in spider-man league when it comes to dodging.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler What kind of shotouts? I don't remember shotouts in game where he had dodged them, other then boss battles. Can you name any?

When I was talking about shotout I wasn't talking about any special moment, I was just saying that how could one survive when there are dozens armed soldiers and no place to hide. Only dodging and fireing back. And if to talk about official story episodes then fight with Big Boss is the first thing that comes in mind. Big Boss took 5 armed soldiers who surrounded him in the open area with knife only. The same guy fought snake. Boss had a machine gun, Snake was unarmed. Snake won.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler Yeah? Dodging a bullet after its fired? Nightwing does stuff like that all the time. Multiple bullets. He's even faster then Batman.
http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year2001fasterthenbatman8wj.gif

I don't see him dodging them after they are fired, seems he simply moves of their way.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Ex Transsilvanian Militia:
http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year2001dodgesautomaticgunfire.gif

Read the text next time. They are trained soldiers.

And Snake fought genetically enhanced super soldiers. Big different.

Ritoshi

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Even the most powerful machine gun in the world shoots with 70 rounds per second. And this is a video game where no one sees you hiding in a cardboard box... no expression

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Ritoshi
And this is a video game where no one sees you hiding in a cardboard box... no expression

Metal Gear Rex had 12,7 mm caliber machineguns.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Metal Gear Rex had 12,7 mm caliber machineguns.

How can you tell? confused

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
No, I was talking about the part when he stands and moves his torso to dodge bullets. And when he runs and jumps he really does it almost as fast as bullets fly. Sorry but NW's dodging feats is still not a match for Fox. Fox is more in spider-man league when it comes to dodging.

Oh, dodging without jumping? Here Nightwing does the same while carrying Robin, and from closer range, even.
http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbullets2ue.gif

Originally posted by Sam Z
When I was talking about shotout I wasn't talking about any special moment, I was just saying that how could one survive when there are dozens armed soldiers and no place to hide. Only dodging and fireing back. And if to talk about official story episodes then fight with Big Boss is the first thing that comes in mind. Big Boss took 5 armed soldiers who surrounded him in the open area with knife only. The same guy fought snake. Boss had a machine gun, Snake was unarmed. Snake won.

You see, during the entire game I really can't recall there being a moment where Snake was forced to fight armed soldiers with no place to hide. And if you are meaning his army moments and such...there are real people doing stuff like that, and I don't think they are able to do bullet dodging.

As for Big Boss, Nightwing also has better feats then he does. Beating 5 armed soldiers with only a knife would be nothing at all to Nightwing. Neither would be dodging bullets from one machine gun...

Originally posted by Sam Z
I don't see him dodging them after they are fired, seems he simply moves of their way.

No, actually he saves Catwoman from a bullets that had been fired before he started moving. Which is even more difficult.

Ritoshi

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Oh, dodging without jumping? Here Nightwing does the same while carrying Robin, and from closer range, even.
http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbullets2ue.gif

You see, during the entire game I really can't recall there being a moment where Snake was forced to fight armed soldiers with no place to hide. And if you are meaning his army moments and such...there are real people doing stuff like that, and I don't think they are able to do bullet dodging.

As for Big Boss, Nightwing also has better feats then he does. Beating 5 armed soldiers with only a knife would be nothing at all to Nightwing. Neither would be dodging bullets from one machine gun...

No, actually he saves Catwoman from a bullets that had been fired before he started moving. Which is even more difficult. Super soilders
no expression

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
And Snake fought genetically enhanced super soldiers. Big different.

Super soldiers that hadn't really seen field action before the incident in game and were actually a bit of...stupid for what I have seen from the game...and Ex-Transsilvanian military force isn't the only type of enemy that Nightwing has fought...

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
How can you tell? confused

http://solidsnake19148.tripod.com/metal_gear_units.html

REX had two machine guns:

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Ritoshi
Super soilders
no expression

That didn't seem to be much different from normal soldiers. no expression

And their bullets don't fly any faster then other's and seeing as those Ex-Militia are probably more experienced, since they seem to be older.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Oh, dodging without jumping? Here Nightwing does the same while carrying Robin, and from closer range, even.
http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbullets2ue.gif

I don't see him standing and dodging, he still jumps aside. And c'mone DC, are you really trying to compare NW's and Fox's speed? It's like comparing Batman's to Spider-man's. Both dodge bullets but one not as effective as anothers.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
You see, during the entire game I really can't recall there being a moment where Snake was forced to fight armed soldiers with no place to hide. And if you are meaning his army moments and such...there are real people doing stuff like that, and I don't think they are able to do bullet dodging.

Actually he was in such moments, and not once. Remember when he met Meryl. There was absolutly no where to hide, and sircle room with Raiden. Cyborgs were jumping from everywhere. How could one survive that without dodging?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
As for Big Boss, Nightwing also has better feats then he does. Beating 5 armed soldiers with only a knife would be nothing at all to Nightwing. Neither would be dodging bullets from one machine gun...

Dodging one machinegun isn't a problem when you fights soldiers or gangmembers but NOT Big Boss. Besides beating those five guys isn't the most impressive big boss feat. If NW had to fight Volgin h2h he would've been a friedwing now. You think that NW is faster than Snake only because Snake don't have to jump like a little monkey to beat his opponents.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No, actually he saves Catwoman from a bullets that had been fired before he started moving. Which is even more difficult.

Almost every MGS character has superhuman reflexes. I'm not even talking about dodging now. Solidus, Raiden and even Olga were diflecting bullets with their blades.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
That didn't seem to be much different from normal soldiers. no expression

And their bullets don't fly any faster then other's and seeing as those Ex-Militia are probably more experienced, since they seem to be older.

No, that's MUCH different from normal soldiers. Just look at them during the gameplay. Experience wasn't that important.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
I don't see him standing and dodging, he still jumps aside. And c'mone DC, are you really trying to compare NW's and Fox's speed? It's like comparing Batman's to Spider-man's. Both dodge bullets but one not as effective as anothers.

But Nightwing is still capable of the same dodging feats that he does. No dodging feat Fox has done indicates that Nightwing wouldn't be capable of the same. And of course Nightwing jumps aside in that pic, he needs to take out those people...

Originally posted by Sam Z
Actually he was in such moments, and not once. Remember when he met Meryl. There was absolutly no where to hide, and sircle room with Raiden. Cyborgs were jumping from everywhere. How could one survive that without dodging?

Did it show him dodging any of those things?

Originally posted by Sam Z
Dodging one machinegun isn't a problem when you fights soldiers or gangmembers but NOT Big Boss. Besides beating those five guys isn't the most impressive big boss feat. If NW had to fight Volgin h2h he would've been a friedwing now. You think that NW is faster than Snake only because Snake don't have to jump like a little monkey to beat his opponents.

Nightwing would defeat Volgin hand to hand. Big Boss was perfectly able to. Volgin clearly wasn't a very capable fighter if a normal human could kill him. And you forget that Big Boss used guns in his fight against Volgin...Nightwing could beat him without, but give him guns and he'd put worse beatdown on Volgin then Big Boss could. He's hurt tougher beings, and is clearly faster and more agile then Volgin.

And Nightwing is faster then Snake because he has shown that he is faster. And Nightwing doesn't even need to use guns to defeat his enemies, unlike Snake. And his enemies are as tough, even tougher.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Almost every MGS character has superhuman reflexes. I'm not even talking about dodging now. Solidus, Raiden and even Olga were diflecting bullets with their blades.

Nightwing has showed superhuman reflexes too. No man in the real world can accomplish the same things that he does.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
No, that's MUCH different from normal soldiers. Just look at them during the gameplay. Experience wasn't that important.

Experience is always important. Those soldiers were not really that impressive at all. Nightwing could easily defeat them.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But Nightwing is still capable of the same dodging feats that he does. No dodging feat Fox has done indicates that Nightwing wouldn't be capable of the same. And of course Nightwing jumps aside in that pic, he needs to take out those people...

Capable of dodging, but not the same dodging. Batman also capable of almost the same dodging feats as Spider-man but it doesn't makes him as fast.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Did it show him dodging any of those things?

It all was during the gameplay.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler Nightwing would defeat Volgin hand to hand. Big Boss was perfectly able to. Volgin clearly wasn't a very capable fighter if a normal human could kill him. And you forget that Big Boss used guns in his fight against Volgin...Nightwing could beat him without, but give him guns and he'd put worse beatdown on Volgin then Big Boss could. He's hurt tougher beings, and is clearly faster and more agile then Volgin.

Snake fought him h2h only, because as you must remember bullets weren't effective against Volgin, they were bouncing from him. Besides there was Ocelot who was keeping an eye on Big Boss. NW can't beat Volgin h2h. Volgin is extremly trained, his body carries an electrical charge of ten million volts and he used it against Snake, as you can see from cutsence, NW is not durable enough to fight Volgin h2h. Volgin was breaking walls and steal doors with punches.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
And Nightwing is faster then Snake because he has shown that he is faster. And Nightwing doesn't even need to use guns to defeat his enemies, unlike Snake. And his enemies are as tough, even tougher.

NW didn't showed that he is faster than Snake since Snake is fast enough to keep up with such characters as Fox.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Nightwing has showed superhuman reflexes too. No man in the real world can accomplish the same things that he does.

This is also true about Snake.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Experience is always important. Those soldiers were not really that impressive at all. Nightwing could easily defeat them.

Those super strong and super fast cyberninjas weren't impressive but militia soldiers were? Easily? I doubt NW could defeat them at all.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
Capable of dodging, but not the same dodging. Batman also capable of almost the same dodging feats as Spider-man but it doesn't makes him as fast.

Maybe not as fluidly, but still can do them.

Originally posted by Sam Z
It all was during the gameplay.

So no?

Originally posted by Sam Z
Snake fought him h2h only, because as you must remember bullets weren't effective against Volgin, they were bouncing from him. Besides there was Ocelot who was keeping an eye on Big Boss. NW can't beat Volgin h2h. Volgin is extremly trained, his body carries an electrical charge of ten million volts and he used it against Snake, as you can see from cutsence, NW is not durable enough to fight Volgin h2h. Volgin was breaking walls and steal doors with punches.

Nightwing can survive punches from the likes of Deathstroke, Blockbuster etc. He is every bit as durable then Big Boss. And he wouldn't even need durability. His superior speed is easily enough to avoid every hit from Volgin. And Volgin is extremely trained, but Nightwing is Batman's best pupil no training Volgin has can compare to that. He's better fighter (Volgin never showed exceptional fighting skills in the game).

Nightwing would own Volgin in h2h.

Originally posted by Sam Z
NW didn't showed that he is faster than Snake since Snake is fast enough to keep up with such characters as Fox.

So is Nightwing...

Originally posted by Sam Z
This is also true about Snake.

Yeah...

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
Those super strong and super fast cyberninjas weren't impressive but militia soldiers were? Easily? I doubt NW could defeat them at all. Thought you mean the first game's genome soldiers, my bad. And Nightwing would be able to take most of them. He's taken on super strong/fast guys before.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Maybe not as fluidly, but still can do them.

Fluidly? He is just not a mach for Fox, not even close

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
So no?

I don't know since every single move of the gameplay couldn't be concidered canon. Personally I've been hit during that shotout for 10 times but what IS canon is that Snake went through all that without getting injured at all. So you assume he was killing dozens of soldiers before they even fired at him? There was no cover so the only logical explanation is - he dodged them. I'm not yet talking about dodging feats from cutscenes.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler Nightwing can survive punches from the likes of Deathstroke, Blockbuster etc. He is every bit as durable then Big Boss. And he wouldn't even need durability. His superior speed is easily enough to avoid every hit from Volgin. And Volgin is extremely trained, but Nightwing is Batman's best pupil no training Volgin has can compare to that. He's better fighter (Volgin never showed exceptional fighting skills in the game).

Nightwing would own Volgin in h2h.

Volgin isn't as trained as NW but all his superpowers on pair with his training give him too obvious advantage. Deathstroke is an inhanced human and more of Cap's level of strength so taking his punches is not that impressive. Volgin was breaking though Shagohod's armor. And it's armor couldn't be even little damaged by RBG so Snake is still more durable. All NW's speed wouldn't give him too much advantage in fighting h2h with so powerfull foe in that small room. One electric blast or one punch would be enough to take him down.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
So is Nightwing...

Still doesn't makes him faster than Snake. And I would like too see what NW is gonna do about Fox.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Thought you mean the first game's genome soldiers, my bad. And Nightwing would be able to take most of them. He's taken on super strong/fast guys before.

Yeah, I'm talking about those soldiers. I don't doubt that NW can easilly take ordinary higly trained soldiers.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
Fluidly? He is just not a mach for Fox, not even close

He's close. Every dodging feat Fox does can be duplicated by Nightwing (and pretty much has).

Originally posted by Sam Z
I don't know since every single move of the gameplay couldn't be concidered canon. Personally I've been hit during that shotout for 10 times but what IS canon is that Snake went through all that without getting injured at all. So you assume he was killing dozens of soldiers before they even fired at him? There was no cover so the only logical explanation is - he dodged them. I'm not yet talking about dodging feats from cutscenes.

But we really don't have any way of telling if that dodging was close to any of Nightwings...and I haven't seen any cutscene feats that show that he is even close...

Originally posted by Sam Z
Volgin isn't as trained as NW but all his superpowers on pair with his training give him too obvious advantage. Deathstroke is an inhanced human and more of Cap's level of strength so taking his punches is not that impressive. Volgin was breaking though Shagohod's armor. And it's armor couldn't be even little damaged by RBG so Snake is still more durable. All NW's speed wouldn't give him too much advantage in fighting h2h with so powerfull foe in that small room. One electric blast or one punch would be enough to take him down.

Deathstroke is stronger then a hundred men. He's above Cap. Deathstroke also isn't the only guy who has superstrength and has punched Nightwing...Wildebeest, for example, can do this:
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wildebeest9aw.gif

Nightwing was able to survive his punches and hurt him:
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1987dodgeswildebeestsblows.gif
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1987fightswildebeest6ck.gif

And as for small spaces...hasn't stopped him before to dodge and put beatdown to someone:
http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fightsblockbuster47iy.gif
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbulletsfromladyv.gif
http://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1999dodgesbulletsfromentir.gif
http://img465.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1999throwskgbeastlikenothi.gif

Volgin would get owned.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Still doesn't makes him faster than Snake. And I would like too see what NW is gonna do about Fox.

Dodge his sword (hell, its only one object moving with bullet velocity, he probably wouldn't have troubles with it). And then kick his ass. He's been trained by one of the best martial artists in the world, after all.

Soljer

Come on, this is Nightwing, no contest. He is far faster than Snake could ever hope to be. Nightwing has pulled off plenty in the comics to prove that - as DarkCrawler has pointed out time and time again. Open your eyes for christs sake!

Nightwing can hang with the best of them, he takes this one, no problem.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
He's close. Every dodging feat Fox does can be duplicated by Nightwing (and pretty much has)

Fox is a match for Spider-man in speed. He literally moved alomost as fast as the bullets he dodged. NW CAN'T do that.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But we really don't have any way of telling if that dodging was close to any of Nightwings...and I haven't seen any cutscene feats that show that he is even close...]

So you assume he got through dozens of armed soldiers in room with no place to hide and didn't get injured because luck?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Deathstroke is stronger then a hundred men. He's above Cap. Deathstroke also isn't the only guy who has superstrength and has punched Nightwing...Wildebeest, for example, can do this:
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wildebeest9aw.gif

Nightwing was able to survive his punches and hurt him:
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1987dodgeswildebeestsblows.gif
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1987fightswildebeest6ck.gif

And as for small spaces...hasn't stopped him before to dodge and put beatdown to someone:
http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fightsblockbuster47iy.gif
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbulletsfromladyv.gif
http://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1999dodgesbulletsfromentir.gif
http://img465.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1999throwskgbeastlikenothi.gif

Volgin would get owned.

I only see him taking one punch and the next thing i see he is lieing unconcious. Not more durable than Snake. I already seen this dodging feats, I still don't find them more impressive than anything Snake did(like riding missile stick out tongue

), and ofcourse not at all more impressive than Fox speed.
He is still getting down in fight with Volgin, c'mone 10 million volts!
And if he ever had to fight The Boss he would lose too. She dodges bullets while running directly at them. Don't know how but still she does it.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Dodge his sword (hell, its only one object moving with bullet velocity, he probably wouldn't have troubles with it). And then kick his ass. He's been trained by one of the best martial artists in the world, after all.
Snake was also trained by one of the best martial artist in the world (Big Boss, who was trained by THE best martial artist in the world)
Doding bullets and dodging sword isn't the same. Spider-man dodges bullets easily but gets hit by characters like venom pretty often, so?

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
Fox is a match for Spider-man in speed. He literally moved alomost as fast as the bullets he dodged. NW CAN'T do that.

No, but he sure as hell could dodge everything Fox dodged in those videos...

Originally posted by Sam Z
So you assume he got through dozens of armed soldiers in room with no place to hide and didn't get injured because luck?

No, but we don't know how much bullets were shoot at him, what angle, how he dodged them etc.

Originally posted by Sam Z
I only see him taking one punch and the next thing i see he is lieing unconcious. Not more durable than Snake. I already seen this dodging feats, I still don't find them more impressive than anything Snake did(like riding missile stick out tongue

), and ofcourse not at all more impressive than Fox speed.

He is lying unconscious because a bomb exploded in his face, not a punch. And it's not the only beating he took and got out with no harm:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5043/takingabeat6yy.gif
And he took that beating voluntarily.

Originally posted by Sam Z
He is still getting down in fight with Volgin, c'mone 10 million volts!
And if he ever had to fight The Boss he would lose too. She dodges bullets while running directly at them. Don't know how but still she does it.

Those million volts were not apparently enough to take out a highly trained soldier, so I doubt that they have anything against Nightwing. Maybe if he used the electricity with a bit more thinking. But Nightwing can do anything Big Boss can do, he can do some stuff even better. Volgin will lose.

Nothing that I have seen from the Boss implys that she could defeat Nightwing either.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Snake was also trained by one of the best martial artist in the world (Big Boss, who was trained by THE best martial artist in the world)

The Boss wasn't THE best martial artist in the world. Big Boss and The Boss are absolutely nothing compared to martial art knowledge of Batman. And you do NOT want me to compare their martial art feats with Batman. Because they would be curbstomped in such a many ways that we would need to invent a new number for it.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Doding bullets and dodging sword isn't the same. Spider-man dodges bullets easily but gets hit by characters like venom pretty often, so?

But nothing that I have seen from the sword implies that Nightwing could not dodge it. It wouldn't be the first sword he has dodged/catched in his hands...

Snake was able to dodge it, and like I have already showed, Nightwing's dodging feats >>> Snake's dodging feats.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No, but he sure as hell could dodge everything Fox dodged in those videos...
He could dodge Rex for sometime but he'll get tired soon and Rex's guns will follow him whenever he goes, so he'll get killed pretty fast.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No, but we don't know how much bullets were shoot at him, what angle, how he dodged them etc.

Let's see. There were atleast 30 of them, even if to assume one fired only one bullet that'd be a lot. Why, there are a lot of ways of dodging bullets if there is no cover nearby?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
He is lying unconscious because a bomb exploded in his face, not a punch. And it's not the only beating he took and got out with no harm:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5043/takingabeat6yy.gif
And he took that beating voluntarily.

And Liquid Snake wasn't knocked out even when he was blown by stinger inside of the helicopter, and inside of the tank.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Those million volts were not apparently enough to take out a highly trained soldier, so I doubt that they have anything against Nightwing. Maybe if he used the electricity with a bit more thinking. But Nightwing can do anything Big Boss can do, he can do some stuff even better. Volgin will lose.

Nothing that I have seen from the Boss implys that she could defeat Nightwing either.

Stop looking at Snake and BB as just of trained Soldiers because they are not. I doubt NW could take The Boss h2h. If you remeber her then you know why. Actually nothing NW did compete with the Boss. And I'm not only talking about her fighting technique.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
The Boss wasn't THE best martial artist in the world. Big Boss and The Boss are absolutely nothing compared to martial art knowledge of Batman. And you do NOT want me to compare their martial art feats with Batman. Because they would be curbstomped in such a many ways that we would need to invent a new number for it

You think that "knowing" more martial arts means you are a better combatant? The Boss would pwn Batman with all his over 100 martial arts like there is no tommorow.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But nothing that I have seen from the sword implies that Nightwing could not dodge it. It wouldn't be the first sword he has dodged/catched in his hands...

But first sword of superstrong and superfast cyberninja.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Snake was able to dodge it, and like I have already showed, Nightwing's dodging feats >>> Snake's dodging feats.

Look, that Snake never jumps like an acrobat doesn't mean he is slower, it is just not his style coz he'd look embarrassing. Still the fact is that even without using funnylooking acrobatic tricks he manage not to get injured in so many danger situations.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
He could dodge Rex for sometime but he'll get tired soon and Rex's guns will follow him whenever he goes, so he'll get killed pretty fast.

He could dodge Rex as long as Fox did there. Hell, it was only like one minute.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Let's see. There were atleast 30 of them, even if to assume one fired only one bullet that'd be a lot. Why, there are a lot of ways of dodging bullets if there is no cover nearby?

Well, who knows that Snake just didn't open fire at them right away. That would sure mess up the shooting of other people. Or maybe Snake waited for some time before opening fire. We don't have a way of knowing. But I am pretty sure that he didn't drop the gun and started dodging there...

Again, most dodging feats of Snake I have actually seen are him running in some point and shooting back at the opponent...

Originally posted by Sam Z
And Liquid Snake wasn't knocked out even when he was blown by stinger inside of the helicopter, and inside of the tank.

I'm sure that Nightwing could survive too if you gave him a parachute...

Originally posted by Sam Z
Stop looking at Snake and BB as just of trained Soldiers because they are not. I doubt NW could take The Boss h2h. If you remeber her then you know why. Actually nothing NW did compete with the Boss. And I'm not only talking about her fighting technique.

I remember her. I've played the game through many times.

Tell me, what makes her better then Nightwing?

And Big Boss is a trained soldier. HIGHLY trained, but still a normal human.

Originally posted by Sam Z
You think that "knowing" more martial arts means you are a better combatant? The Boss would pwn Batman with all his over 100 martial arts like there is no tommorow.

Did I say anything about knowing? huh

No. Batman's martial art FEATS, people he has beaten, things he has accomplished etc. simply pwn them both. Especially if we bring out ALL his feats, even the PIS ones.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Look, that Snake never jumps like an acrobat doesn't mean he is slower, it is just not his style coz he'd look embarrassing. Still the fact is that even without using funnylooking acrobatic tricks he manage not to get injured in so many shotouts.

Like I said before, the game only featured few shootouts. Nightwing has still had more of them, and more impressive ones.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z

But first sword of superstrong and superfast cyberninja.

Not faster then things he has dodged in the past. Like I said, its only one fast moving object. Nightwing has dodged hundreds in the same time in past.

the Darkone

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No, but he sure as hell could dodge everything Fox dodged in those videos...

No, but we don't know how much bullets were shoot at him, what angle, how he dodged them etc.

He is lying unconscious because a bomb exploded in his face, not a punch. And it's not the only beating he took and got out with no harm:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5043/takingabeat6yy.gif
And he took that beating voluntarily.

Those million volts were not apparently enough to take out a highly trained soldier, so I doubt that they have anything against Nightwing. Maybe if he used the electricity with a bit more thinking. But Nightwing can do anything Big Boss can do, he can do some stuff even better. Volgin will lose.

Nothing that I have seen from the Boss implys that she could defeat Nightwing either.

The Boss wasn't THE best martial artist in the world. Big Boss and The Boss are absolutely nothing compared to martial art knowledge of Batman. And you do NOT want me to compare their martial art feats with Batman. Because they would be curbstomped in such a many ways that we would need to invent a new number for it.

But nothing that I have seen from the sword implies that Nightwing could not dodge it. It wouldn't be the first sword he has dodged/catched in his hands...

Snake was able to dodge it, and like I have already showed, Nightwing's dodging feats >>> Snake's dodging feats.

thumb up

exactly, Batman will serve Big Boss and Boss at the same time, Nightwing martial art feats are up their with Batman, only people that are better than nightwing is lady Shiva, Batgirl, David Cane, Deathstroke, Batman. Nightwing is too much for snake, Nightwing has fought the best super soldier in Deathstroke and he will beat snake within inch of his life.

superbatman86

Let me put in a way that some of you hard core MGS can understand here is Deathstroke
http://img203.imageshack.us/my.php?image=teentitans5pyratep02034iv.jpg
He is capable of seeing and fighting Flashes and on more than one occasion made them look like complete idiots.
http://img454.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sladeflash3ea.jpg
Here is slade owning Batman who is one the best MA in the world
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/5300/batmanvsdeathstroke37gx.gif
http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/4384/batmanvsdeathstroke44hz.gif
And now see how Nightwing does against him
http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page000116pu.jpg
http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page000129pt.jpg
http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page000139mg.jpg
http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page000144ae.jpg
http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page000153lz.jpg
http://img306.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page000165tz.jpg
http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page000175sa.jpg
That's why Nightwing would completely destroy Snake.

Ritoshi

http://media.psp.ign.com/media/821/821970/vid_1496181.html Ninja speed at the end.

Creshosk

Wait... How is a peak human faster than an enhanced human?

Did you notice Cyber Ninja parrying the machine gun fire? Not just dodgeing the ****ing aim of the gun like most "dodge bullets" feats go, but he's parrying it, meaning he's deflecting it with his sword... that's right a sword not just a spinning staff. But a katana.

Now tell me how is Nightwing faster than an enhanced human?

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Creshosk
Wait... How is a peak human faster than an enhanced human?

Did you notice Cyber Ninja parrying the machine gun fire? Not just dodgeing the ****ing aim of the gun like most "dodge bullets" feats go, but he's parrying it, meaning he's deflecting it with his sword... that's right a sword not just a spinning staff. But a katana.

Now tell me how is Nightwing faster than an enhanced human?

I know that Ninja's hands move faster. But dodging? No, Nightwing would be able to duplicate every dodging feat he has done there. Ninja hasn't dodged anything that Nightwing wouldn't be able to dodge.

And peak human in comics isn't the same that peak human in real world, isn't it?

joeyleather

snake

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
He could dodge Rex as long as Fox did there. Hell, it was only like one minute.

Deardevil possibly could too, but comparing their speed is still not right.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Well, who knows that Snake just didn't open fire at them right away. That would sure mess up the shooting of other people. Or maybe Snake waited for some time before opening fire. We don't have a way of knowing. But I am pretty sure that he didn't drop the gun and started dodging there...

I never said he droped the gun, that's not his style. But I highly doubt he shot ALL of them before they opned fire.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Again, most dodging feats of Snake I have actually seen are him running in some point and shooting back at the opponent...

Actually whenever he dodges bullets in cutsences it's usually just dodging without running like in fight with Olga for example.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I'm sure that Nightwing could survive too if you gave him a parachute...
.
I'm not talking about surviving the fall but taking explosion without getting KOed. And you said deathstroke is stronger than 100 men, well it is also true about Fox. I doubt that even 100 men could support Rex's pressure.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I remember her. I've played the game through many times.

Tell me, what makes her better then Nightwing?

And Big Boss is a trained soldier. HIGHLY trained, but still a normal human.

Even Big Boss hardly could be called a NORMAL human.
You thing that is what just higly trained soldier could do?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4qgdXLf6p1I&search=The%20Boss

Ocelot killed 5 soldiers with the gun within the second. Solid Snake is as good as Ocelot when it comes to shooting. Big Boss was a Snake's prototype. Now think how much time it would take Big Boss to pull the trigger. She've been standing like 10 feet away from him, ran directly at him and unarmed him before he fired and look at his face, he knew she was going to attack. And this is what highly trained soldier could do? I'm sure NW would be able to run DIRECTLY at pointed at him gun and unarm enemy but not when his enemy is someone like Big Boss who is as good at shooting as Ocelot.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Did I say anything about knowing? huh

No. Batman's martial art FEATS, people he has beaten, things he has accomplished etc. simply pwn them both. Especially if we bring out ALL his feats, even the PIS ones.

Bringing PIS isn't really the best idea coz it would only disrespect Batman. If not PIS all his techique seems not at all more EFFECTIVE than CQC.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler

Like I said before, the game only featured few shootouts. Nightwing has still had more of them, and more impressive ones.

No wonder he had more, how many years DC has been publishing his books? And as for more impressive during the two games Snake went through situations that could be compared to the most impressive NW's issues. I'm not talking about PIS though.

Sam Z

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Not faster then things he has dodged in the past. Like I said, its only one fast moving object. Nightwing has dodged hundreds in the same time in past.

Venom's fist is also a one object only, still Spider-man couldn't dodge it but he also dodged bullets at the same time.

Sam Z

Creshosk

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I know that Ninja's hands move faster. But dodging? No, Nightwing would be able to duplicate every dodging feat he has done there. Ninja hasn't dodged anything that Nightwing wouldn't be able to dodge.

And peak human in comics isn't the same that peak human in real world, isn't it?

I don't think you understand.

Ninja was the equivilent of peak human via martial arts like Nightwing, BEFORE he is enhanced further.

Cyber Ninja is like enhanced peak human.

Now are we going to have to draw a comparison to peak human Wolverine and not peak but enhanced human Spiderman speeds?

Cause I'm sure you know that an enhanced human speed is faster than peak human speed, and a enhanced peak human would be even faster... right?

Spiderman (enhanced human) is faster than Wolverine (Peak Human)
Cyber Ninja (Enhanced Peak Human) is faster than Nightwing (Peak human)

You get it? Or are we really going to have to resort to pointing out that you are having fanboy arguments about how your character can do whatever my character can without any explination?

Think about it even with the little bit you confessed about his hands being faster, you don't think that would help him?

Do you think Nightwing is as fast as Spiderman? I mean After all Nightwing is a peak human and Spiderman is an enhanced human... right?

And peak human in comics isn't the same that peak human in real world, isn't it?

srankmissingnin

I understand that you guys like Gray Fox and why not, he is a cool character. But you have absolutly no grounds to stand on when saying that he is faster then Nightwing. Frank's one impressive speed feat has been matched and even surpassed by Dick on several occasions. So what makes him faster? Even if Frank was peak human (which he wasn't) before he was bonded with the exoskeleton and doesn't equate to him being the equal to a peak human from DC comics now does it?

Sam Z

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I understand that you guys like Gray Fox and why not, he is a cool character. But you have absolutly no grounds to stand on when saying that he is faster then Nightwing. Frank's one impressive speed feat has been matched and even surpassed by Dick on several occasions. So what makes him faster? Even if Frank was peak human (which he wasn't) before he was bonded with the exoskeleton and doesn't equate to him being the equal to a peak human from DC comics now does it?

But Fox really was moving almost as fast as the bullets he was dodging.
I don't think NW moves THAT fast coz it would make him as fast as Spider-man. confused

Creshosk

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I understand that you guys like Gray Fox and why not, he is a cool character. But you have absolutly no grounds to stand on when saying that he is faster then Nightwing. You mean aside from the fact that he's enhanced peak human? You know peak human like nightwing via the martial arts then further enhanced by the suit and such?

No no. YOU have no grounds for saying that Nightwing is faster or even as fast as Fox.

None.

What possible reasoning could you possible have?

"They both dodge machine gun fire."

And?

Flash and Wolverine both dodge machine gun fire.
Spiderman and Nightwing both dodge machine gun fire.

Guess what though? That doesn't make the lot of the just as fast as one another.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Frank's one impressive speed feat has been matched and even surpassed by Dick on several occasions. This is what I'm talking about.

"They both dodge machine gun fire the must be the same speed!"

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
So what makes him faster?

Enhanced peak human versus peak human

Or would a regular human be as fast as an enhanced human?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Even if Frank was peak human (which he wasn't) before he was bonded with the exoskeleton and doesn't equate to him being the equal to a peak human from DC comics now does it? Oh yes obviously because all mediums are weighted based on how cool they are and not logic.

I'm sorry why is DC's peak humans automatically GREATER than the MGS peak humans? HMMMMMM?

No seriously...

Iknow DC comics are cool and all but just because they're cool does not automatically make them better.

I'm on the verge of calling you a fanboy just for that spout of "coolness" argument.

Because obviously DC peak humans are stronger than MGS peak humans just because it's DC...

yeah that doesn't sound objectively non-biased does it?

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Creshosk
You mean aside from the fact that he's enhanced peak human? You know peak human like nightwing via the martial arts then further enhanced by the suit and such?

No no. YOU have no grounds for saying that Nightwing is faster or even as fast as Fox.

None.

What possible reasoning could you possible have?

"They both dodge machine gun fire."

And?

Flash and Wolverine both dodge machine gun fire.
Spiderman and Nightwing both dodge machine gun fire.

Guess what though? That doesn't make the lot of the just as fast as one another.

This is what I'm talking about.

"They both dodge machine gun fire the must be the same speed!"

Enhanced peak human versus peak human

Or would a regular human be as fast as an enhanced human?

Oh yes obviously because all mediums are weighted based on how cool they are and not logic.

I'm sorry why is DC's peak humans automatically GREATER than the MGS peak humans? HMMMMMM?

No seriously...

Iknow DC comics are cool and all but just because they're cool does not automatically make them better.

I'm on the verge of calling you a fanboy just for that spout of "coolness" argument.

Because obviously DC peak humans are stronger than MGS peak humans just because it's DC...

yeah that doesn't sound objectively non-biased does it?

Sure is alot of words to write and still end up saying nothing...

And this "coolness" arguement is the entire foundation of the Gray Fox is faster then Nightwing arguement. Simple minded people see bullet dodging rendered in 3d animation and they wet themselves. I know it looks cooler then the single freeze frame that you get in a comic panel but it doesn't change the fact that the feats are equally impressive.

The basis of your argument requires one to assume that MGS Peakhuman = DC/Marvel Peak human but that just isn't the case.

"Because Frank is an enhanced peak human (which he isn't by the way) he must be faster then Nightwing who is only peak human."

You use these labels that are placed on characters like they somehow mean something. Feats speak louder then words and the feats say that Nightwing is at least as fast as Gray Fox... if you are going to continue to try an argue this you need something better then "Nuh-uh 'cause Gray Fox is Enhanced-Peak Human!" because it means nothing.

Sam Z

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
...Nightwing is at least as fast as Gray Fox...

Still

Creshosk

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Sure is alot of words to write and still end up saying nothing... Hey if you can't be "assed" to read it then don't be "assed" to respond.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And this "coolness" arguement is the entire foundation of the Gray Fox is faster then Nightwing arguement. Yes because obviously when I say someone is an enhanced human or peak human or enhanced peak human. I'm obviously talking about how cool they are. and not talking about the powers, abilities or skills at all.

but you know had you read what I typed rather than just saying I said nothing... you might have had a valid point... but you know strawman arguments of making a straw man as an opponent and having him say the things you either wanted me to say, or think that I was saying... in this case I imagine it was something like

"OMG GEY FX IZ T3H KOL!"

Is really rather invalid considering I never said anything about which I thought was "OMG t3h KOL".

Cause personally, I think that Night wing's character design is much cooler. But you know, this ain't a coolness contest, so sorry DC doesn't auto-win like you implied. smile

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Simple minded people see bullet dodging rendered in 3d animation and they wet themselves. and even simpler minded people like yourself see it in 2d and wet themselves. smile

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I know it looks cooler then the single freeze frame that you get in a comic panel but it doesn't change the fact that the feats are equally impressive. and again. Had you read my argument and been educated on what I said. you'd know that this argument is invalid. but like some fanboy n00b you didn't even bother to read what your opponent wrote. I'm disappointed in you Srank. Disappointed in deed. sad

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The basis of your argument requires one to assume that MGS Peakhuman = DC/Marvel Peak human Yes. How foolish of me not to weigh coolness in and think 2 means 2 in any universe. How foolish of me to use logic. Foolish indeed. sad

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
but that just isn't the case. Prove it. smile

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
"Because Frank is an enhanced peak humanyup

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
(which he isn't by the way) Prove it. smile

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
he must be faster then Nightwing who is only peak human." Yup. Works within single universes, and even cross universes... but IO guess MGS just isn't cool enough to be compared to the Marvel/DC cool power houses. sad

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You use these labels that are placed on characters like they somehow mean something. Yes, damn me for thinking that word mean something... but then I guess if I just brushed arguments off saying there was nothing there, I could be as cool as you.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Feats speak louder then words and the feats say that Nightwing is at least as fast as Gray Fox... Yeah invalid. and since you just brushed off the counter argument, it's not hard to see why you thought that it was valid.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
if you are going to continue to try an argue this you need something better then "Nuh-uh 'cause Gray Fox is Enhanced-Peak Human!" because it means nothing. and you need something much more than

"Marvel/DC are automatically better than MGS"

I'm not the one that's arguing from Coolness. cause I didn't say that one companies peak humans were better than another.. without explanation... So before you lecture me on arguing styles. I suggest you look to yourself and fix your own flawed fanboyish arguing.

And next time? Try actually reading whats written. IT works wonders for your credibility. smile

Creshosk

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The basis of your argument requires one to assume that MGS Peakhuman = DC/Marvel Peak human but that just isn't the case.

I challenge ANYBODY to tell me how that statement isn't biased to all hell.

Can anyone tell me why MGS peak humans are less than Marvel or DC peak humans?

Anyone? Can anyone tell me how that's not biased honestly?

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Creshosk
I challenge ANYBODY to tell me how that statement isn't biased to all hell.

Can anyone tell me why MGS peak humans are less than Marvel or DC peak humans?

Anyone? Can anyone tell me how that's not biased honestly?

Going out on a limb here but maybe, just maybe it might have something to do with the fact that DC/Marvel Peak humans have feats far superior to MGS peakhumans?

Creshosk

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Going out on a limb here but maybe, just maybe it might have something to do with the fact that DC/Marvel Peak humans have feats far superior to MGS peakhumans?

So beacusse we haven't seen the number 2,000,000 in mgs where as we have in M/DC obviously the lesser 2 is indeed less in mgs than it is in M/DC?

Yeah, so since Nightwing can dodge bullets, and the flash can dodge bullets. Obviously Nightwing is as fast as the flash, especillly since peak human and super human would just be meaningless labels. smile

2 is 2 and peak means peak. regardless of your prejudiced, biased borderline biggotry. smile

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah, so since Nightwing can dodge bullets, and the flash can dodge bullets. Obviously Nightwing is as fast as the flash, especillly since peak human and super human would just be meaningless labels. smile

Except that Flash has other dodging feats that put him way above Nightwing. Fox doesn't have any. erm

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Creshosk
So beacusse we haven't seen the number 2,000,000 in mgs where as we have in M/DC obviously the lesser 2 is indeed less in mgs than it is in M/DC?

Yeah, so since Nightwing can dodge bullets, and the flash can dodge bullets. Obviously Nightwing is as fast as the flash, especillly since peak human and super human would just be meaningless labels. smile

2 is 2 and peak means peak. regardless of your prejudiced, biased borderline biggotry. smile

So... once again we are back to the fact that there is nothing to sugest that Frank is faster then Nightwing.

They both have the same feats on the exact same scale. So what is there to make us believe that Frank is faster? Oh yeah! That label of enhanced peakhuman (that you habhazardly tossed on him with no evidance to back you up I might add). And once again the only way that could be a valid arguement is if we assume that DC peak humans = MGS peak humans and I just don't see how we can do that when the feats sugest other wise.

Do you have a fever or something Cresh because you are usually a better debater then this.

Ritoshi

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Except that Flash has other dodging feats that put him way above Nightwing. Fox doesn't have any. erm

What has spidey dodged that Nighwting didn't eek!

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Creshosk
Hey if you can't be "assed" to read it then don't be "assed" to respond.

Yes because obviously when I say someone is an enhanced human or peak human or enhanced peak human. I'm obviously talking about how cool they are. and not talking about the powers, abilities or skills at all.

but you know had you read what I typed rather than just saying I said nothing... you might have had a valid point... but you know strawman arguments of making a straw man as an opponent and having him say the things you either wanted me to say, or think that I was saying... in this case I imagine it was something like

"OMG GEY FX IZ T3H KOL!"

Is really rather invalid considering I never said anything about which I thought was "OMG t3h KOL".

Cause personally, I think that Night wing's character design is much cooler. But you know, this ain't a coolness contest, so sorry DC doesn't auto-win like you implied. smile

and even simpler minded people like yourself see it in 2d and wet themselves. smile

and again. Had you read my argument and been educated on what I said. you'd know that this argument is invalid. but like some fanboy n00b you didn't even bother to read what your opponent wrote. I'm disappointed in you Srank. Disappointed in deed. sad

Yes. How foolish of me not to weigh coolness in and think 2 means 2 in any universe. How foolish of me to use logic. Foolish indeed. sad

Prove it.

yup

Prove it. smile

Yup. Works within single universes, and even cross universes... but IO guess MGS just isn't cool enough to be compared to the Marvel/DC cool power houses. sad

Yes, damn me for thinking that word mean something... but then I guess if I just brushed arguments off saying there was nothing there, I could be as cool as you.

Yeah invalid. and since you just brushed off the counter argument, it's not hard to see why you thought that it was valid.

and you need something much more than

"Marvel/DC are automatically better than MGS"

I'm not the one that's arguing from Coolness. cause I didn't say that one companies peak humans were better than another.. without explanation... So before you lecture me on arguing styles. I suggest you look to yourself and fix your own flawed fanboyish arguing.

And next time? Try actually reading whats written. IT works wonders for your credibility. smile

If you believe there are any points of merit in this garbled fan-boy rabble that need to be counter let me know.

Creshosk

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
So... once again we are back to the fact that there is nothing to sugest that Frank is faster then Nightwing.So when this company calls someone a superhuman, they aren't superhuman uintil we have a feat of them doing something superhuman, despite the owner of the intilectual property calling them that.

because oh that's right the owner calling them that is a meaningless label.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They both have the same feats on the exact same scale. and since they have nothing higher we have to assume that labels are meaningless so peak human, anhanced human superhuman, all meaning less and flash and spiderman and Nightwing all have the same speed.

since Flash's "Superhuman" speed, Spiderman's "enahanced human" speed and nightwings "peak human" speed would all be reduced to
Flash's speed, Spiderman's speedand nightwings speed.

since Peah human, enhanced human, and super human are all meaningless labels. Damn.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
So what is there to make us believe that Frank is faster? Oh yeah! That label of enhanced peakhuman (that you habhazardly tossed on him with no evidance to back you up I might add).Yes you mean that Konami tossed on him? Damn it all I guess until there's a need to really show their power, they don't have that power.

And molecules and viruses didn't exist until they were discovered?

and the earth was flat too until it was discovered to be round?

Yeah...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And once again the only way that could be a valid arguement is if we assume that DC peak humans = MGS peak humans and I just don't see how we can do that when the feats sugest other wise. because they haven't needed to they obviously cant do it?

Yeah let's just assume that DC and MArvel are better because they're cooler.

Once again you have'nt proven anything but your own bais.

Tell me until the power is needed it doesn't exist? So characters that hold back aren't really holding back? they just can't do that until its actually needed?

Right...

Do you have a fever or something Cresh because you are usually a better debater then this.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Sam Z
Deardevil possibly could too, but comparing their speed is still not right.

It is when they have comparable feats...

Originally posted by Sam Z
I never said he droped the gun, that's not his style. But I highly doubt he shot ALL of them before they opned fire.

I don't think it either...but we don't know how many he did shot before opening fire.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Actually whenever he dodges bullets in cutsences it's usually just dodging without running like in fight with Olga for example.

But when he has done the same with machine gun fire?

Originally posted by Sam Z
I'm not talking about surviving the fall but taking explosion without getting KOed. And you said deathstroke is stronger than 100 men, well it is also true about Fox. I doubt that even 100 men could support Rex's pressure.

So you believe that Liquid didn't jump from the copter before the explosion? How did his parachute survive it, then?

Originally posted by Sam Z
Even Big Boss hardly could be called a NORMAL human.
You thing that is what just higly trained soldier could do?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4qgdXLf6p1I&search=The%20Boss

Ocelot killed 5 soldiers with the gun within the second. Solid Snake is as good as Ocelot when it comes to shooting. Big Boss was a Snake's prototype. Now think how much time it would take Big Boss to pull the trigger. She've been standing like 10 feet away from him, ran directly at him and unarmed him before he fired and look at his face, he knew she was going to attack. And this is what highly trained soldier could do? I'm sure NW would be able to run DIRECTLY at pointed at him gun and unarm enemy but not when his enemy is someone like Big Boss who is as good at shooting as Ocelot.

We all know that Big Boss was hesitating to kill Boss. Thats emphasized during the entire game...

And seeing as Deathstroke couldn't really hit Nightwing while he was saving someone with his back turned, I doubt that he would have any trouble dodging anything while going directly at his opponent...
http://img399.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year2003dodgesbulletsfromdeath.gif

Originally posted by Sam Z
Bringing PIS isn't really the best idea coz it would only disrespect Batman. If not PIS all his techique seems not at all more EFFECTIVE than CQC.

You have hard time proving that...I have seen them use CQC against...umm, dozen people in total? While Batman has beaten more impressive and skilled enemies with his style.

Originally posted by Sam Z
No wonder he had more, how many years DC has been publishing his books? And as for more impressive during the two games Snake went through situations that could be compared to the most impressive NW's issues. I'm not talking about PIS though.

Name some that can be comparable to most impressive Nightwing situations...because I really can't remember any...for example, lets take this feat:
http://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1999dodgesbulletsfromentir.gif

When Snake did something comparable?

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Ritoshi
What has spidey dodged that Nighwting didn't eek!

Multiple computer targeted laser blasts are just one example...

Creshosk

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If you believe there are any points of merit in this garbled fan-boy rabble that need to be counter let me know. Oh I'm the fan boy for saying that MGS peak human are equal to MArvel/DC peak human?

You know fanboy, reading peoples arguments isn't such a bad idea... but I guess since you CAN'T counter anything its only natural for you to ignore it.

But obviously like your sig says you're not the fanboy here doesn't it?

Yeah you're spouting the DC sig, and you're saying that "DC peak human's are better than MGS peak humans"

but obviously I'm the fanboy cause you can't read people's arguments. Such a shame. you truly are pathetic. and here I thought you were good. but turns out you're just another oafish moron who can't hold his own in a debate.

Creshosk

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Except that Flash has other dodging feats that put him way above Nightwing. Fox doesn't have any. erm

Who cares? Superhuman and peak human are meaningless, so just because Nightwing hasn't done flashes speed feats, since peak human and superhuman ARE meaningless labels. they must be the same speed.

Ritoshi

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Multiple computer targeted laser blasts are just one example... Nighwting could of dodfged it. Spiderman had spidersense to early warn him. Nightwing is spideys dpeed though if he had no spidey sense right ?

Creshosk

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
It is when they have comparable feats... again who cares? Just because Nightwing hasn't doesn't mean he can't.

Superhuman and peak human are meaningless labels.

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Creshosk
So when this company calls someone a superhuman, they aren't superhuman uintil we have a feat of them doing something superhuman, despite the owner of the intilectual property calling them that.

because oh that's right the owner calling them that is a meaningless label.

and since they have nothing higher we have to assume that labels are meaningless so peak human, anhanced human superhuman, all meaning less and flash and spiderman and Nightwing all have the same speed.

since Flash's "Superhuman" speed, Spiderman's "enahanced human" speed and nightwings "peak human" speed would all be reduced to
Flash's speed, Spiderman's speedand nightwings speed.

since Peah human, enhanced human, and super human are all meaningless labels. Damn.

Yes you mean that Konami tossed on him? Damn it all I guess until there's a need to really show their power, they don't have that power.

And molecules and viruses didn't exist until they were discovered?

and the earth was flat too until it was discovered to be round?

Yeah...

because they haven't needed to they obviously cant do it?

Yeah let's just assume that DC and MArvel are better because they're cooler.

Once again you have'nt proven anything but your own bais.

Tell me until the power is needed it doesn't exist? So characters that hold back aren't really holding back? they just can't do that until its actually needed?

Right...

Do you have a fever or something Cresh because you are usually a better debater then this.

Labels like superhuman/enhancedhuman/peakhuman are just labels. They are helpful to a certain degree but they are just guidelines. This is the same as the typical arguement that Spider-man fans use. " Character X, could never hit Spider-man because Spider-man has superhuman speed while Character X is only peak human." The arguement holds no weight, what does hold weight are the abilities and feats the character has under their belt and when they are onpar with characters with superhuman speed how can it even be argued?

You aren't even basing your arguement on what Gray Fox has done but what you imagine he could do... and the idea you have is far above what he has shown capable of. What kind of arguement is that.

Creshosk

I mean come on what does flash have that Nightwing doesn't?

All flash or quicksilver would have as a power is "speed" but are you saying that Night wing doesn't have "speed"?

Cause you know Peakhuman and superhuman are just meaningless labels.

Seriously is that the best argument there is?

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh I'm the fan boy for saying that MGS peak human are equal to MArvel/DC peak human?

You know fanboy, reading peoples arguments isn't such a bad idea... but I guess since you CAN'T counter anything its only natural for you to ignore it.

But obviously like your sig says you're not the fanboy here doesn't it?

Yeah you're spouting the DC sig, and you're saying that "DC peak human's are better than MGS peak humans"

but obviously I'm the fanboy cause you can't read people's arguments. Such a shame. you truly are pathetic. and here I thought you were good. but turns out you're just another oafish moron who can't hold his own in a debate.

The sig was an assigment for school where we had to put our self in a painting and I choose a Alex Ross painting... not sure how that makes me a fanboy. I would have used the F4 wedding but my friend did first. I only pick up two maybe three DC titles a month and yes one of them is Nightwing.

Also I read you're arguement and I have chewed it to wholes more then once. What more do you want?

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Creshosk
I mean come on what does flash have that Nightwing doesn't?

All flash or quicksilver would have as a power is "speed" but are you saying that Night wing doesn't have "speed"?

Cause you know Peakhuman and superhuman are just meaningless labels.

Seriously is that the best argument there is?

They both have speed, but Flash's is greater...because he has proved it through feats. Gray Fox hasn't proved that he can dodge anything Nightwing couldn't...

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Ritoshi
Nighwting could of dodfged it. Spiderman had spidersense to early warn him. Nightwing is spideys dpeed though if he had no spidey sense right ?

I don't think Nightwing could have dodge them, I haven't seen him dodge more then few lasers at the same time. There were dozens on the Spider-Man feat...

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Creshosk
I mean come on what does flash have that Nightwing doesn't?

All flash or quicksilver would have as a power is "speed" but are you saying that Night wing doesn't have "speed"?

Cause you know Peakhuman and superhuman are just meaningless labels.

Seriously is that the best argument there is?

Flash has speeds that prove he is faster, Gray Fox doesn't.

Ritoshi

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I don't think Nightwing could have dodge them, I haven't seen him dodge more then few lasers at the same time. There were dozens on the Spider-Man feat... So if you see it in the next issue you will believe he can do it ? makes me wonder how you argue in Spidey vs Wolvie thread and dissmiss 90% of things wolverine ha sdone as pis .

Creshosk

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Labels like superhuman/enhancedhuman/peakhuman are just labels. quote] I know right?

So since Flash has Speed and Nightywing has speed... Look at that they both have speed!

They must bee the same speed cause I spelled it the same, used the same language... How is their speed different?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They are helpful to a certain degree but they are just guidelines. No they aren't they are meaningless.

Nightwing has speed and Flash has speed. therfore they are equal.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
This is the same as the typical arguement that Spider-man fans use. " Character X, could never hit Spider-man because Spider-man has superhuman speed while Character X is only peak human." Except that all I'm saying is that Fox is faster. isn't that what you challenged?

How is Fox faster?

That's what Jinzin calls following trains of thought. but I guess to follow my arguments you'd have to read them right?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The arguement holds no weight, what does hold weight are the abilitiesquote] pssh.

Like Speed and Speed?

They have the same speed so obviously Nigthwing could do flashes feats if he wanted to.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
and feats the character has under their belt and when they are onpar with characters with superhuman speed how can it even be argued? Superhuman is just a meaningless label.

Remeber? I mean since enahanced human and peak human are just guidelines and not really usefull all characters must have the same speed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You aren't even basing your arguement on what Gray Fox has done but what you imagine he could do...yeah, its that whole what the creator said about the character thing.

I tend to take the companies word over fanboys words... certainly you know that from the spiderman vs wolverine threads right?

Marvel said this and this, but spiderman fans know better?

Remeber that?

Obviously not since you don't read my arguments.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
and the idea you have is far above what he has shown capable of.

What kind of arguement is that. Wow you sound JUST like a spiderman fan.

Because its what the company says he's capable of. They say he knows virtually all forms of com- oh shit.

Because the company says he's enhanced I take their word for it. stick out tongue

DarkCrawler

I tend to take the games/comics itself over what the company would say...just look at Marvel Handbooks. sick

Creshosk

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Flash has speed that prove he is faster, Gray Fox doesn't. Are you saying grey fox doesn't have speed?

You think you can take him or something?

laughing

I think you missed some words up in your post there SRank.

Quicksilver has speed so obviously he's as fast as the flash.

Hell Spiderman has speed so obviously he's as fast as the flash.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Creshosk

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I tend to take the games/comics itself over what the company would say...just look at Marvel Handbooks. sick

Except in cases where you don't like what's going on then you just brush it aside calling it PIS even if there is no indication that that shouldn't have happened... shifty

Ritoshi

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I tend to take the games/comics itself over what the company would say...just look at Marvel Handbooks. sick

Marvel has so many comics and keep changing them all the time with different writers doing what they think the character could do in there mind. MGs had few games.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Creshosk
Except in cases where you don't like what's going on then you just brush it aside calling it PIS even if there is no indication that that shouldn't have happened... shifty

Well, if it contradicts majority, it's usually not very well written... wink

Creshosk

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
They both have speed, but Flash's is greater...because he has proved it through feats. Gray Fox hasn't proved that he can dodge anything Nightwing couldn't... so until there is a need to use the power it doesn't exist... so there is no such thing as holding back. the power just doesn't exist.

Woah didn't I say thsat before?

Are any of you reading what I'm saying?

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Creshosk
so until there is a need to use the power it doesn't exist... so there is no such thing as holding back. the power just doesn't exist.

Woah didn't I say thsat before?

Are any of you reading what I'm saying?

So we should just believe that Gray Fox is faster...even though he has nothing to show that...?

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Creshosk
Are you saying grey fox doesn't have speed?

You think you can take him or something?

laughing

Yeah it is supposed to say "speed feats"

Seriously you are purposely being obtuse Cresh. This whole "Flash has speed and Nightwing has speed so they both must be equal" thing you keep spouting out... did you really not understand my point? You can't base you're entire arguement on a label that was only applied in the first place as a guideline for the writers even if both characters are from the same company and if they are from two different universes it is an even bigger no-no.

Lets take Snake-eyes for example shall we? He is peak-human in G.I. Joe... so logically Spider-man would be faster then him since he is superhuman the right? In order for this logic (you're logic is it not?) to work we then have to ignore that Snake-eyes has moved so fast that air friction has caused his his sword to burst into flames, he has gone through short battles moving so fast that falling objects haven't even began to be effected by gravity by the time the battle is over. Snake-eyes has speed feats that put him above Spider-man in speed... but the comic say he is peak-huma, while Spider-man is superhuman. Not an effective argument.

Creshosk

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Well, if it contradicts majority, it's usually not very well written... wink

So if a character has a mojority of wins against this and this and this... aND another character has a majority of wins against this and this and this...

When they fight what would be well written?

I left it fairly open for interpriation... like Wolverine is notorious for the majority of his fights versus bricks Wolverine stays concious.

And Hulk has a majority of beating alot of things.

But some people don't feel its well written if Wolverine stays concious if hulk hits him regardless of winning or losing.

So wolverine's majority of staying concious vs bricks
versus
Hulks majority of smashing stuff

What's well written?

This is just an example of "oxymoron" two seemingly contradictory things joined into one complete thought is posible even if it doesn't seem that way.

sooo...

Have I made my point about the enhanced/peak/superhuman labels?

Creshosk

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
So we should just believe that Gray Fox is faster...even though he has nothing to show that...? Well without labels who knows?

Nightwing is as fast as Flash without the labels...

But with the labels you cantell who's faster.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah it is supposed to say "speed feats" I figured.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Seriously you are purposely being obtuse Cresh. Yeah that tends to be when I use a person's arguments against them.

in this case its the "Those are meaning less labels" argument.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
This whole "Flash has speed and Nightwing has speed so they both must be equal" thing you keep spouting out... did you really not understand my point? You can't base you're entire arguement on a label that was only applied in the first place as a guideline for the writers even if both characters are from the same company and if they are from two different universes it is an even bigger no-no. Seeing as how the two characters have not encountered each other we don't need to worry about the "bigger no-no"

And you know what's a hoot when a character is capable of more because of these guidelines, and just doesn't do it?

Appearentlky by your logic that means they cant do it.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Lets take Snake-eyes for example shall we? He is peak-human in G.I. Joe... so logically Spider-man would be faster then him since he is superhuman the right? In order for this logic (you're logic is it not?) to work we then have to ignore that Snake-eyes has moved so fast that air friction has caused his his sword to burst into flames, he has gone through short battles moving so fast that falling objects haven't even began to be effected by gravity by the time the battle is over. Snake-eyes has speed feats that put him above Spider-man in speed... but the comic say he is peak-huma, while Spider-man is superhuman. Not an effective argument. I don't see why not, Wovlerine has done the same things. And Wolverine is not faster than Spiderman.

And Wolverine is also Peak human.

Oh so I guess there's that whole factor of what you think is faster cause hey, snake eye's speed feats are cooler aren't they?

Creshosk

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
So we should just believe that Gray Fox is faster...even though he has nothing to show that...? Cause power doesn't exist until its needed right?

But then how do we know he has that power if he hasn't used it?

Gee, the company says he does... but we can't trust the companies on anything, cause even if this is wrong and this is wrong. Nothing else in it can be right... right?

For example Namor is only called namor because thats what he's called in the comics because the nasty old handbook calls him Namor as well.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Creshosk
So if a character has a mojority of wins against this and this and this... aND another character has a majority of wins against this and this and this...

When they fight what would be well written?

I left it fairly open for interpriation... like Wolverine is notorious for the majority of his fights versus bricks Wolverine stays concious.

And Hulk has a majority of beating alot of things.

But some people don't feel its well written if Wolverine stays concious if hulk hits him regardless of winning or losing.

So wolverine's majority of staying concious vs bricks
versus
Hulks majority of smashing stuff

What's well written?

This is just an example of "oxymoron" two seemingly contradictory things joined into one complete thought is posible even if it doesn't seem that way.

Well, if Wolverine has stayed councious majority of time when Hulk has punched him, I don't consider it bad writing if he does so...

I'd consider it bad writing if he repeately punched him and nothing would happen. But I think Wolverine has showed that he can survive a Class 100 punch concious.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Creshosk
Cause power doesn't exist until its needed right?

But then how do we know he has that power if he hasn't used it?

Gee, the company says he does... but we can't trust the companies on anything, cause even if this is wrong and this is wrong. Nothing else in it can be right... right?

For example Namor is only called namor because thats what he's called in the comics because the nasty old handbook calls him Namor as well.

The company says that he is enchanced peak human...but how do we know what class is enchanced peak human in speed? Because Cap is supposed to be peak human and he has thrown his shield fast enough to catch a missile among other things... confused

We can't say that he is faster then Nightwing because Konami states that he is enchanced peak human. Because obivously, Konami and DC don't have the same definition of peak human...

Ritoshi

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
The company says that he is enchanced peak human...but how do we know what class is enchanced peak human in speed? Because Cap is supposed to be peak human and he has thrown his shield fast enough to catch a missile among other things... confused

We can't say that he is faster then Nightwing because Konami states that he is enchanced peak human. Because obivously, Konami and DC don't have the same definition of peak human... Throw a baseball then throw paper..which one goes further and faster ?

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Creshosk
Well without labels who knows?

Nightwing is as fast as Flash without the labels...

But with the labels you cantell who's faster.

I figured.

Yeah that tends to be when I use a person's arguments against them.

in this case its the "Those are meaning less labels" argument.

*sigh*

I have no idea why you can't grasp this concept. I mean it isn't incredibly intricate of complicated.

How do we know Flash is faster then Nightwing, Cresh? Because he has on several occasions moved at multiples of c. Flash isn't faster then Nightwing because he has been labeled with having superhuman speed, he is faster because he has proved he is faster every appearance he has.

Now why is Gray Fox faster? Not because he has shown to be faster. No he is apparently faster because he has the label of superhuman, while Nightwing is labeled peak human.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah that tends to be when I use a person's arguments against them.

in this case its the "Those are meaning less labels" argument.

... you aren't doing a very good job.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And you know what's a hoot when a character is capable of more because of these guidelines, and just doesn't do it?

Appearentlky by your logic that means they cant do it.

Maybe, maybe Gray Fox has higher capabilities then what he has shown but who gets to decided what they are capable of Cresh? Is it you? You might has well site fan-fiction as proof Cresh because it is just as credible.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I don't see why not, Wovlerine has done the same things. And Wolverine is not faster than Spiderman.

And Wolverine is also Peak human.

Oh so I guess there's that whole factor of what you think is faster cause hey, snake eye's speed feats are cooler aren't they?

Wolverine has never done any of those and neither has Spider-man. They are ridiculous speed feats. They aren't better because they are cooler, they are better because in terms of speed they are faster.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Ritoshi
Throw a baseball then throw paper..which one goes further and faster ?

Depends on who's the guy who throws them... wink

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
We can't say that he is faster then Nightwing because Konami states that he is enchanced peak human. Because obivously, Konami and DC don't have the same definition of peak human...

Exactly!

Creshosk

YEah and people can dodge bullets, but that doesn't mean they are as fast as bullets, just fast enough to dodge the aim most people through predictions they make themselves. As would be the case with Cap. beign able to predict where it's going to be and then getting out of it's way to dodge, or into its way to catch

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
We can't say that he is faster then Nightwing because Konami states that he is enchanced peak human. Because obivously, Konami and DC don't have the same definition of peak human... How do you know that they don't? they both have dictionarires right?

Even if one is Japanese(who most of the time have normal human characters doing outragous things anyway) and the other American.

Can you verifyu that they have different definitions? Or shall we go with definitions readily available to us?

I mean Superman is a great example of having the power even if he doesn't use it... super friction... he has eye beams and he uses super friction? so when he's using the super friction he doesn't have the eye beams? or when he uses the eye beams he can't move at super speeds to create friction?

Ritoshi

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Depends on who's the guy who throws them... wink

meaning that a strong enough person throwing a sheild that is made to cut through air and excel fast is reasonable for his peak human.

Go pick up a baseball and throw it then go pic up a bowling ball and throw it. You are the same eprson and yet the base ball went much further and faster. The shield is made for that stuff....

Creshosk

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
*sigh*

I have no idea why you can't grasp this concept. I mean it isn't incredibly intricate of complicated.Or maybe I have and you haven't grasped mine?

Why is it when I don't agree I can't understand?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
How do we know Flash is faster then Nightwing, Cresh? Because he has on several occasions moved at multiples of c. And?

Nightwing could do that too. I mean they both have speed right?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Flash isn't faster then Nightwing because he has been labeled with having superhuman speed, he is faster because he has proved he is faster every appearance he has. He's been labeld as superhuman speed because he is superhuman speed?

Gee, how about that the label means something.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Now why is Gray Fox faster? Not because he has shown to be faster. No he is apparently faster because he has the label of superhuman, while Nightwing is labeled peak human. The companies know something we don't, that's fine.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
... you aren't doing a very good job. You only say that because you don't like what you hear, if ou did like what you heard you'd be saying I was doing a good job.

Know how I know? Cause you said I normally do a good job, the only difference is that you're my opponent right now and not a mutual opponent.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Maybe, maybe Gray Fox has higher capabilities then what he has shown but who gets to decided what they are capable of Cresh? The company. Doi.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Is it you? No, it's the company.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You might has well site fan-fiction as proof Cresh because it is just as credible./quote] Yeah, since people discard what the companies say and go off of what they want.

But it is just as constructive as fanfiction.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has never done any of thosequote] Striking before something hits the ground? Sure he has.

Striking something and it stays together? why not? He's done that.

Moving so fast somthing that doesn't normally combust, combusts?

Yeah, about that... you see with the way physics is there has to be something to allow his sowrd to combust in the first place and then to stay combusted... other wise it would be impossible to happen... in which case I fall back on the unknown, something that we don't know about allowed it to happen. like how in Kenshin the swords that caught fire were designed to.

Same premise. No reason Why wolverine couldn't get a combust sword to combust right?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
and neither has Spider-man. They are ridiculous speed feats. Only if you don't anylize them like I just did.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They aren't better because they are cooler, they are better because in terms of speed they are faster. not really. Cooler cause you haven't examined them.

Once you do they're not really all that.

DarkCrawler

Originally posted by Creshosk
YEah and people can dodge bullets, but that doesn't mean they are as fast as bullets, just fast enough to dodge the aim most people through predictions they make themselves. As would be the case with Cap. beign able to predict where it's going to be and then getting out of it's way to dodge, or into its way to catch

Wait...what did that have anything to do with Cap throwing his shield with multiple Mach speeds to catch a ICBM missile?

Originally posted by Creshosk
How do you know that they don't? they both have dictionarires right?

Even if one is Japanese(who most of the time have normal human characters doing outragous things anyway) and the other American.

Can you verifyu that they have different definitions? Or shall we go with definitions readily available to us?

So, both companies have used dictionaries to define peak human...?

Originally posted by Creshosk
I mean Superman is a great example of having the power even if he doesn't use it... super friction... he has eye beams and he uses super friction? so when he's using the super friction he doesn't have the eye beams? or when he uses the eye beams he can't move at super speeds to create friction?

But Superman has still showed that he has the power...Grey Fox hasn't showed better dodging feats then Nightwing has...

srankmissingnin

I guess I missed the memo where Konami said

"Attention fans we just wanted to let you know that during that cut scene where Gray Fox is dodging bullets and deflecting bullets he was holding back! He is really able to go much faster. We would just like to clearify that Frank is indeed faster then Nightwing" roll eyes (sarcastic)

And do you know how fast you need to be moving your arms for air friction cause things to start on fire? Faster then Spider-man is capable of.

Ritoshi

Moving arms. You guys alreday said Fox can move his arms faster by deflected all thsoe bullets with his katana so how come its ok for snake eyes.

Creshosk

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Wait...what did that have anything to do with Cap throwing his shield with multiple Mach speeds to catch a ICBM missile?So you have to move a bullet speeds to dodge bullets?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
So, both companies have used dictionaries to define peak human...? So neither company has a dictionary to define "peak" or human"?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But Superman has still showed that he has the power...Grey Fox hasn't showed better dodging feats then Nightwing has... But you're STILL arguing the power doesn't exist until it's needed.

The company says he has the power. You're saying he doesn't.

Sorry, I tend to listen to the company over fanboys, especailly on unshown stuff like this. it would be different if the company said he moves at a snails pace and he dodges bullets. as opposed to the company saying he has abilities not completely used.

Creshosk

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I guess I missed the memo where Konami said

"Attention fans we just wanted to let you know that during that cut scene where Gray Fox is dodging bullets and deflecting bullets he was holding back! He is really able to go much faster. We would just like to clearify that Frank is indeed faster then Nightwing" roll eyes (sarcastic)

Oh look a strawman argument where he says that Konami came right out and said during a specific time he was holding back.

By your argument where it has to be stated, unless a character thinks or says they're holding back, they're not?

In which case Spiderman and superman and other meek characters aren't holding back? because it doesn't say that they're holding back.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And do you know how fast you need to be moving your arms for air friction cause things to start on fire? Faster then Spider-man is capable of. Do you like... know anything about physics?

Obviously not. How fast does something need to move to catch fire?

Go look up how much energy needs to be prduced by the friction.

But hey, I suppose if I strike this piece of wood it'll catch fire just as eaily as if I strike this peice of wood designed to catch fire(a match)?

And hey lets look at metal and fire. How hot does metal have to be to ignite? How hot does it have to be to stay lit?

Did you know that it has to be in a molten form first? and then only certain metals will ignite? the carbon in carbon steel for example.

But hey that sword didn't melt... conclusion? It wasbn't just speed, it was designed to ignite.

And you don't think Wolvie or spidey could get a sword desgined to ignite.. to ignite?

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Creshosk
Do you like... know anything about physics?

Obviously not. How fast does something need to move to catch fire?

Go look up how much energy needs to be prduced by the friction.

But hey, I suppose if I strike this piece of wood it'll catch fire just as eaily as if I strike this peice of wood designed to catch fire(a match)?

And hey lets look at metal and fire. How hot does metal have to be to ignite? How hot does it have to be to stay lit?

Did you know that it has to be in a molten form first? and then only certain metals will ignite? the carbon in carbon steel for example.

But hey that sword didn't melt... conclusion? It wasbn't just speed, it was designed to ignite.

And you don't think Wolvie or spidey could get a sword desgined to ignite.. to ignite?

Or you know maybe it happened in a comic book? You know comic books where physics don't matter and character's move at multiple of c and Hulk's pant survive nukes?

srankmissingnin

Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh look a strawman argument where he says that Konami came right out and said during a specific time he was holding back.

By your argument where it has to be stated, unless a character thinks or says they're holding back, they're not?

In which case Spiderman and superman and other meek characters aren't holding back? because it doesn't say that they're holding back.

... So what are you basing that he was holding back on what exactly? Is your arguement he was holding back that he is said to have superhuman speed but that feat was something that characters like Nightwing could easily match? 'Cause thats not proof he was holding back, its proof that MGS peakhuma and DC peakhuman aren't equal.