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Just a few simple rules for the forum, the old thread got sort of cluttered up so I will repost them. I have updated them -- it is a small update but a large rule change. Thus the new thread. Please fully re-read everything here!

Obviously, considering the size of this forum compared to the others, the rules don't need to be as strict, but there are a few nonetheless.

1. This forum is Video Game Versus. Therefore, all characters in the match must originate in a video game - simply appearing in one is not good enough! If you are unsure if a character originates in a game, do a little research first.

2. All matches should be fair -- do not start one where it is blatantly obvious that one side would stand no chance. An example of this would be a Chocobo vs. Master Chief.

3. Please, try and keep them to no more than 3 vs. 3. If they are in teams, each team can have up to 5. Otherwise it just gets too hard to discuss. Matches that are 1v1v1 etc are not allowed and will be closed. The one and single exception to this rule is if each side will be fighting as one army-like team; this must be specified in the first post, else I will assume that it's not the case and close the thread for being against the rules.

4. Recently there have been questions about matches including KOTOR/KOTOR2 characters, as they originate in the games yet the games are based in the Star Wars universe. As the characters originate in game, matches between them may go here or SWVs.

5. Please use the search function before creating a thread to be sure that it hasn't been done already.

6. All KMC Forum Rules still apply here. This means that bashing and flaming is not allowed. Do not do it.

Any threads I find breaking these rules will be closed. If you have any questions or suggestions, feel free to PM me at any time. As always, if you see anyone breaking the rules, please use the Report function or let me know directly so I can handle it.

Thank you very much and have fun

I'll leave this thread open for now, but please don't clutter it with senseless posting.

-- Lana dancebunny

Comic Book Versus Star Wars Versus

hey daredevil was in a game same with the bat

READ.

They did not originate in a video game. Therefore they are not allowed.

goku did not

superman did not

No kidding.

That thread has been around far longer than that rule was made. I'm going to be doing a forum cleanup very soon.

And use the edit button instead of double posting.

I know how did you becum a forum leader i want to lol

I was asked if I was interested in doing so by the admin.

well he needs to aks me.

Not going to happen, there's no need for more mods for starters.

how long have you been a mem

Originally posted by White Reeper
well he needs to aks me. I think I just vomited a little from laughing too hard.

Originally posted by White Reeper
how long have you been a mem

It says in my profile.

And please keep idle chatter out of this thread.

ok who is that one dude?o nowonder 3 years

Originally posted by Lana

And please keep idle chatter out of this thread.

not to be mean but it is a thread but i gess we cant talk me/you

I know this sounds pathetic, but how do I make a thread?

And Coronas that starwars pic is awesome.

Originally posted by thegmeister53
I know this sounds pathetic, but how do I make a thread?

ya then you go to your user cp click make new thread. type in the name at the top and their you go.how did u get that pic of the forum lol

use the print screen key...then muck around with it in paintshop pro..

Originally posted by grey fox


Thanks. I owe ya' one.

Since people don't seem to like to understand this rule, I shall repost it...

All characters must originate from a video game!

Let's take a look at the definition of originate.



Thus, if a character did not start out as a character from a video game, they are not allowed! Simply appearing in a game is not good enough, and I don't give a damn how many games Batman or Goku have been in...they didn't start out in one and therefore are not allowed.

Tank you for closing Goku Vs Super man, that thread was going too far and people was just hostile to each others...

hmmm i like the change of rules

Yeah, what was the reason it got closed for?

....because the rules have changed and that thread got away with being open far longer than it should have.

Raz is making a forum that supports all Vs threads so look forward to that unless he forgets.

Joy

Cool.

uh.........cowabunga!!! ..no seriously, i like the change...

Its ok.

Yeah so, the thread you just closed "Punisher vs The trio(too lazy to name them)" was made before the ruels changed. See, this is exactly why we need a misc. versus forum.

Because as I've explained before, I've got no obligation to keep threads open that are against current rules.

Raz intends to make a misc vs. forum, and I think you can wait a month for that. However, with the larger threads that are against current rules here but will fit in there, I will reopen and move once that forum is created.

He is? I didn't know that. <33 Raz. I'm down with that.

OMG thats gr8...

Why so many rules. Who really gives a shit?

the moderators

^^^^
wat scorp...er..phazon said...

ok lana was wondering if you could help me master chief came froma game and the books are canon but someone refuses them being canon because the contradict the game directly. but bungie have said its canon so can i use the books as refrence and to show chiefs power?

Uhhhh...I don't really care either way myself.

I suppose if it's officially declared canon it is.

why do video game characters have to Originate from a video game. no character in a game originated from a game, every game character originates in the game designers head or on paper first

characters can sometimes be drawn on hundreds of sheets of paper before they even enter simple image on the computer so in a way no thread on this forum is complying by the rules

Originally posted by Burning thought
why do video game characters have to Originate from a video game. no character in a game originated from a game, every game character originates in the game designers head or on paper first

characters can sometimes be drawn on hundreds of sheets of paper before they even enter simple image on the computer so in a way no thread on this forum is complying by the rules

because that would'nt make them video game characters, and yes that is true but we (as in the mass of game players.) first heard/saw/expierenced the character on a game

i think its a silly rule, i think it should be all Video game characters no matter where they originated

see how bad we argue already? think about if we had all the people that were in games.

Originally posted by Burning thought
i think its a silly rule, i think it should be all Video game characters no matter where they originated

Unfortunately, the rules are the rules and they're set. There were too many problems before.

And if you want to get nitpicky with your "no characters originated in games but in the creator's head" thing, then no character ever originated in a movie, a comic, a game, a TV show, etc.

But that's not how it works.

For a match to go here, all characters must originate in a game. Appearing in 400 games is not good enough, so DBZ characters, X-Men, Darth Vader, etc, don't go here. The character's first appearance MUST be a video game.

indeed basically all characters originated from paper and the minds of the creators

oh well i guess it would get a bit messy if any characters were allowed in this thread and also there would not be a games versus forum if everyone was as "nit picky" as you put it as i am so lucky their not

Originally posted by Burning thought
i think its a silly rule, i think it should be all Video game characters no matter where they originated

I agree with him some of these seem interesting and they seem to be getting closed down

Why doesn't ppl read the rules, Remy got Owned!

To remy: Don't make such a STUPID thread again it makes my head hurt of such SF fanboyism

Excuse my noobishness, but who is Chocobo?

I think its Some creature from Final Fantasy who looks like this

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/6/68/256px-FFX_Chocobo.jpg

Yep.

They're basically giant birds from FF that you can ride on.

I wounder if they can get aggressive and eat People

no they just peck you if u barge them in a chocobo race ...

Question: How does plot devices play into matches?

Example: Kain from the Legacy of Kain games. A plot device is that he is indestructable (currently) due to his destiny as the Scion of Balance, NOT his own power. I personally think this shouldn't count as him being unstoppable, much like how Darth Sidious isn't considered unbeatable on the Star Wars versus forum.

Another question: A character called "Mecha Frieza" (Not to be confused with Cyborg Frieza who is a canon DBZ character) originated from and was designed for the new DBZ game, Budokai something. Now, the only way to mesure his power would be to quantify the power of other anime (in this case, DBZ) characters... How does he fit in?

Frieza is Frieza, any form of him is classified as DBZ and thus not allowed.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
Question: How does plot devices play into matches?

Example: Kain from the Legacy of Kain games. A plot device is that he is indestructable (currently) due to his destiny as the Scion of Balance, NOT his own power. I personally think this shouldn't count as him being unstoppable, much like how Darth Sidious isn't considered unbeatable on the Star Wars versus forum.

Another question: A character called "Mecha Frieza" (Not to be confused with Cyborg Frieza who is a canon DBZ character) originated from and was designed for the new DBZ game, Budokai something. Now, the only way to mesure his power would be to quantify the power of other anime (in this case, DBZ) characters... How does he fit in? kain is immortal under his own power...raziel's wraith blade is the only thing capable of killing him...and in BO he isnt born as a vampire yet..the prophecy prevent even raz from killing him...at least i think its thats way...

it is, the prophecy prevents anything from killing him, and its not a prophecy, its more like a destiny, his destiny and place as the scion of balance means he cannot die by any way until he has truly become the scion, and then only Raziel can kill him who is now in his own blade trapped


Kain under his own power and essence is indestructable to all except Raziel

agrees with the rules

Originally posted by Swe_Bum
I wonder if they can get aggressive and eat People

lol...dont think so...ur talking about fanboys right?

Originally posted by MadMel
kain is immortal under his own power...raziel's wraith blade is the only thing capable of killing him...and in BO he isnt born as a vampire yet..the prophecy prevent even raz from killing him...at least i think its thats way...

Actually, Raziel could feasibly kill him. He would have to do it before being sucked into the Reaver, of course, but being the only one who has true free will, he alone can change history at his whim. But that also wouldn't stop history from simply expelling him from the timeline.

Originally posted by Lana
Obviously, considering the size of this forum compared to the others, the rules don't need to be as strict, but there are a few nonetheless.

Not true, this is like the strictest section I've saw.

Its a stupid rule that they have to originate from a game

Originally posted by S.G
Not true, this is like the strictest section I've saw.

Its a stupid rule that they have to originate from a game

I'd edit that if I were you. Telling a mod that there rule is "stupid" is not the smartest thing you can do.

Originally posted by S.G
Not true, this is like the strictest section I've saw.

Its a stupid rule that they have to originate from a game


...well, it is VIDEO GAME versus... though i think we should be able to post a character if we specify which game counterpart of theirs we're talking about

EDIT..

Originally posted by thegmeister53
I'd edit that if I were you. Telling a mod that there rule is "stupid" is not the smartest thing you can do. No, it is a stupid rule, I am entitled to my opinion, just because they're mods doesn't make them better than the rest of us, just means they're in charge of a certain area. Same goes for everyone, someone can say its a stupid topic to another but someone can't say that to a mod for fear of abusing they're powers. Which I have saw on other sites and here.

I wouldn't go as far as calling them stupid S.G, I understand what Lana was trying to accomplish with that rule, and I have to admit that walking into a clutteref forum filled to the brim with shite that looks like it shouldn't be there is pretty irritating (Especially then it's Superman vs Goku, THAT thread should have gone in the Comic Vs Forum.)

But I will say this, Lana, drop this rule, or at least loosen it a little, Maybe you should just stress that the threads should focus exclusively on the video game aspect and outside media content is forbidden, rather than simply saying anything not originating in a video game is forbidden, since that leaves absolutely nothing open to the broader gaming comunity that doesn't always play your link or your Mario or your Sonic... Seriously, I have a thread idea in mind and I can't drop it in ANY frigging forum due to both forums having this Tight-Tight rule...

I come to you first with reguards to this because, well, almost my entire posting history has been here in the Games vs forum, I've been here for ages, and I'd hate to walk away because of one rule recently introduced becoming too chafing...

The rules here are still more lenient than the other two versus forums.

I'm sorry, but if I change it in any way to allow in characters who didn't originate in a game, it would be severely abused. I know it would be, because before I changed to rules to what they are now, matches in here simply had to have one character that originated in a game and people abused the hell out of it by having huge matches with one minor character that was actually a game character.

Sorry, but the rule is standing.

Thats because your looking at the problem from the wrong perspective... Who cares if the threads don't have a character that ORIGINATES in a video game, as long as they are only arguing the facts as they are REPRESENTED in the game... I mean damn, not every thread could possibly contain a character that Originates in a video game... do you see just how limited the scope of debate is with this rule introduced Lana?

You've closed more threads since that rule has been introduced, than has ever been closed in the entire history of the Games vs forum before that rule....

Err, no, not really. I have actually had to close far fewer threads since making that rule.

And you know very well that people would not do that and take advantage of it to make up anything they want with the excuse of "they were in a game!". Maybe a few people could be trusted to actually debate properly, but as a whole...it wouldn't work. And I can't make exceptions for certain people.

There are thousands upon thousands of video game characters. Not my problem if people only want to debate about Mario, Sonic, and Street Fighter.

The rule will not be changed.

Thats wierd, in the past six months, I've seen alot more threads closed than I ever did before that rule, the only ones closed back then are those that degenerated into open flamewars like the old Comic vs threads...

Before I changed the rules I was closing 5+ threads a day at times.

The only mass closing I've had to do since changing the rules was after I came back from being on vacation for a month.

I see, well, my bad ok Lan? I apollogise, I had completely forgotten that Raz was doing another Vs Forum to cover crossovers, :P whaddaya say, peace?

Originally posted by Lana
Not my problem if people only want to debate about Mario, Sonic, and Street Fighter. Why the hell dose everyone open NEW SF threads!?!? there is like thousands now!!

Me dont like! swe_bum_down2

Fine keep it but its still a stupid rule and I can express my opinion and they can't do anything.

Originally posted by Swe_Bum
Why the hell dose everyone open NEW SF threads!?!? there is like thousands now!!

Me dont like! swe_bum_down2

Honestly, I don't know. You'd think they were the only video game characters half the people in this forum know about ermm

no, but theyre so strong its fun to find characters to compete with them

Originally posted by Lana
Honestly, I don't know. You'd think they were the only video game characters half the people in this forum know about ermm yeah... swe_bum_3

dude!!!!
stop with the smilies..

whatever guys im with everyone

paralel is way beeter than the x men

Originally posted by MadMel
dude!!!!
stop with the smilies.. What Smilies? swe_bum_4

wait does naruto characters count

did they originate in a video game??

No. Naruto characters do NOT count. They originated in an anime, not a game.

Lana, you take seductiveness to a new level

Originally posted by Coleman Trebor
Lana, you take seductiveness to a new level


qouth the raven, "DAYUM WOMAN, YOU IS FINE"

Originally posted by Kayne Archeron
qouth the raven, "DAYUM WOMAN, YOU IS FINE"
hysterical

Would it be ok to have a game versus tournament with actual members participating, like we have in comic versus?

I would like to take part in that.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Would it be ok to have a game versus tournament with actual members participating, like we have in comic versus?

I have no idea what that is or what that would entail.

So I would say...describe how it goes and make a pitch to me and I will consider it.

What about characters like Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo? You know they appeared in Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children. So would that be declared video game or not?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
What about characters like Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo? You know they appeared in Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children. So would that be declared video game or not?

No. They originated in the movie, not the game, and thus are not game characters.

Okay thanks

Poor Lana, going through hell in terms of all the illegal thread today, eh?

Welll, my jacuzzi is always open to you.

Originally posted by Lana
I was asked if I was interested in doing so by the admin.

yeah sorry for the idle chatter but its been bugging me since i read the posts here, were you chosen because you posted alot on the games versus forum or just on the normal forums? of course i'm assuming there was a g,es versus forum back then since you regestered al long time ago in comparison to me

Originally posted by Lana
No. They originated in the movie, not the game, and thus are not game characters.

and about this once again sorry if you can help it but, i am under the impresssion they were failed experements of hojo and there were lots of them in the game, or my friend was totally bluffing, i can't verify his infomation

I'd only very rarely posted in the VG VS forum (which didn't exist when I joined; when I joined the CB forum was a barely active subforum) because Vs matches just aren't my thing. I may be geeky to an extent matched only by one person on KMC, buuuuut I really couldn't care less about if Cloud could beat Link I did post quite a lot in the VG forum itself, though not quite as much once its former mod vanished because I couldn't deal with the idiots. It's also a pretty well-known fact that I like to play games and am pretty knowledgable about them. I'm also one of the most active people on KMC, most well-known, and have been a member a long time.

As for the second question...I personally have not actually played FFVII, due to not having or being able to find a copy of the game. This will hopefully change soon. But as I understand it, those three specifically did not appear in the game and thus are off-limits.

I want to point out that these tournament matches I am not quite sure about where they fall, in regards to the rules.

I also want to point out that in here, when it comes to a character that originated in a game but later was in a comic/manga/movie/etc., their video game version is the most canon and thus those skills shown in that are the most accurate version.

Originally posted by Lana
I'd only very rarely posted in the VG VS forum (which didn't exist when I joined; when I joined the CB forum was a barely active subforum) because Vs matches just aren't my thing. I may be geeky to an extent matched only by one person on KMC, buuuuut I really couldn't care less about if Cloud could beat Link I did post quite a lot in the VG forum itself, though not quite as much once its former mod vanished because I couldn't deal with the idiots. It's also a pretty well-known fact that I like to play games and am pretty knowledgable about them. I'm also one of the most active people on KMC, most well-known, and have been a member a long time.

As for the second question...I personally have not actually played FFVII, due to not having or being able to find a copy of the game. This will hopefully change soon. But as I understand it, those three specifically did not appear in the game and thus are off-limits.

ahh so it didn't

yeah i can understand not being able to deal with the idiots, we are only getting louder and dumber
yeah i figured you were the whizz on games, ahh ok thanks

ah, bummer okies, thanks

Not trying to be annoying..but whats the news in terms of....that dude...Raz! Yes, Raz. Whats the news in terms of Raz's considering the Vs. anything forum? I know you're all busy, so I've been reluctant to ask that.

I have no idea what's going on with that...so yeah, can't give you any real news on that.

Oh. Well then... back to my jacuzzi...

Kyle Katarn from Jedi Knight he came from the game right? Or was it the New Jedi Order series that first introduced him?

im not 100% on that, though im sure he first appered in the games...

Call for rules clarification:

In the comic vs forum, it is illegal to post threads involving characters that aren't principly in comics.

Here, it is illegal to post threads concerning non-video game characters.

Obviously, there is no reason to post in the Star Wars forum when debating things outside of Lucas' imagination.

Likewise, we aren't gonna post stuff regarding Skywalker in the Anime vs.

So....assuming that someone wants to pit a comic character against a video game character, or a novel character against either of the above, or an anime character against all three....where would we go to do that?

As of now, there is nowhere you can put something like that.

Which has been brought up numerous times, including at the top of this very page.

Originally posted by Lana
As of now, there is nowhere you can put something like that.

Which has been brought up numerous times, including at the top of this very page.

Allow me to apologize for not reading the thread more thoroughly. The question had merely been bothering me for quite some time, and I thought this an opportunity to ask it.

Originally posted by Lana
I have no idea what that is or what that would entail.

So I would say...describe how it goes and make a pitch to me and I will consider it. What it is, is more of a one on one between two members that have been here for awhile, with a certain character for each, or a team in some instances. You have judges who judge who win (or it could be from popular vote) there is usually a time elapse of the tourney and a maximum amount of posts that each competitor can post. Other posters can't help either contestant out.

It's a bit more complex and challenging than a normal debate, but they tend to be more fun when you have them every once in awhile.

I apologize lana, no more scroller posts for me!

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
What it is, is more of a one on one between two members that have been here for awhile, with a certain character for each, or a team in some instances. You have judges who judge who win (or it could be from popular vote) there is usually a time elapse of the tourney and a maximum amount of posts that each competitor can post. Other posters can't help either contestant out.

It's a bit more complex and challenging than a normal debate, but they tend to be more fun when you have them every once in awhile. yeah that would be cool

I'm up for it. I think it's a great idea. How would the matches be decided, debate, popular vote, or abstract standards? I'd like it to be based on strength of arguement. And how many characters are you allowed to pick for your team, etc?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I'm up for it. I think it's a great idea. How would the matches be decided, debate, popular vote, or abstract standards? I'd like it to be based on strength of arguement. And how many characters are you allowed to pick for your team, etc? Popular vote might work, but there's the chance of socking, most people agree with judges. Which would work better due to less members here anyways.

Originally posted by Captain SEX
Not trying to be annoying..but whats the news in terms of....that dude...Raz! Yes, Raz. Whats the news in terms of Raz's considering the Vs. anything forum? I know you're all busy, so I've been reluctant to ask that. I actually Been PMing him for the last month and he keeps saying he is working on something. Then after couple months pass, I asked him like this month and he said "Still working on it "

Basically, I don't think Raz gives a shit and is just telling me forever; that he is still working on it so I could Shut the F*ck up


So who knows lol, I will ask him next month again and then next year, 10 years, 50 years, and maybe he might do it before DommsDay

What about Versus threads between 2 games... Not just characters...

I was thinking about creating an Ocarina Of Time Vs Twilight Princess thread. Nothing to do with which character would win in a fight, simply which game plays better and such.

Originally posted by Ricodrayz
I actually Been PMing him for the last month and he keeps saying he is working on something. Then after couple months pass, I asked him like this month and he said "Still working on it "

Basically, I don't think Raz gives a shit and is just telling me forever; that he is still working on it so I could Shut the F*ck up


So who knows lol, I will ask him next month again and then next year, 10 years, 50 years, and maybe he might do it before DommsDay

Eh. I doubt it. It was a great idea... too bad it flopped, apparently.

Originally posted by Lana
Something like that would go in the VG forum itself and is something I'd have to basically decide about on a case by case basis.



Or...Raz has about a billion things he's working on, and that's not entirely a top priority.
So what about Ocarina of Time vs Twilight Princess? Both big games, both game has a substantial thread of its own. Your call.

I'd say go for it as a test-run, so to speak. I'll see how that goes and judge from there.

Okie dokie... I'll fire up a thread.

edit

edit

edit

edit

Who's we? You and your imaginary friends?

I think he mean the people of KMC who don't like Sado

Which are very few in numbers. Thus, they're insignificant.

Originally posted by Judge 64
Bla bla bla Spamrat ermm

Originally posted by IceJaw
Spamrat ermm


quoted for the truth. bravo!

why is this forum fu*cked up?

only spite threads, dissing each other, can't give your opinion anymore and you can't support the character you like

Huh? I take it you haven't heard of Judge, he has made like a hundred socks on this board, you can't take him seriously.

I have a question, seems Masterchief originated from a book called the Halo Bible (which everything in the Halo universe is based off) but he first appeared in Halo 1 which is based on well, the bible.

So should he be allowed to be used in a VS thread?

i think he should because he was rarely heard of until the game... cool sig by the way

Why was the only respect thread we have closed, when it's needed for refrence?

it should go in to the games discussion forum

i must say that i don't care about CANON OR UNCANON anymore

i mean the game comes from a company

you talk about a character. who fu**ing cares if something happend in his life or not. They never existed. you talk about everything they have accomplished in his games and story

i don't care anymore... noobs can believe and talk like they want.... and i admidt that i'm not good in telling information or debating, i get tired of this

spite threads and hatred against each other.

you can't support the character you like, cause then youre a fanboy. and if youre wrong then the hatred begins and everything gets offtopic. people have a hard time with admitting that they were wrong

i had it to when i first came here in 2005. but i learned much here. i had much mistakes.

NOW it seems like the new people are reading the lessons for the older members.

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
Why was the only respect thread we have closed, when it's needed for refrence?
Originally posted by judgement hand
it should go in to the games discussion forum

No, because they are not allowed, period. They don't go in versus, they don't go in the main forum.

And hey guys, thanks for reporting the spam posts...

eeeeyyy

So.. if we DID want to make a respect thread for characters... were we would we put it?

Nowhere, since only the comicbook section is allowed it, like everything else.

There's a Ryu Hayabusa respect thread in the comic book respect thread forum.

Originally posted by Xenogears
There's a Ryu Hayabusa respect thread in the comic book respect thread forum.
That's one of the rare instaces, it's not like you can frequent the respect thread with non comic material all the time.

Indeed. Which is kind of sad.

The Anime and Comic Book vs. Sections really are the best places, here. The Anime section lets you pit Anime characters against anyone, and theres never any problems. And Digi even lets threads like "Rock Lee vs. Spiderman" stay open. Again, no problems.

Anime is decent because Wrathful Dwarf is so cool, but compared to Comic Book section it's nothing.

What do you mean?

Actually, as far as I know, anime vs. threads are not actually allowed as there's a thread specifically for that. It just doesn't get enforced as much as it should because no one reports stuff and as far as I'm concerned that forum is a black hole. Which is rather sad as it wouldn't exist if not for me.

Why and how is it a black hole?

It's mostly teenybopper 13 year olds who couldn't follow the rules to save their lives and don't know a single thing about anime other than Naruto, Bleach, and Inuyasha. That forum has changed a LOT as it grew, and not a change for good. It's rare there's any worthwhile discussion in there anymore.

The only gripe I have with it, are the people who think Goku > Any other Anime Character in existence.

Honestly, you should hear some people's reasons on why exactly Goku can "destroy a Galaxy or Unvierse" in one Ki-Blast.

Originally posted by Bruce Leeroy


The only gripe I have with it, are the people who think Goku > Any other Anime Character in existence.

Honestly, you should hear some people's reasons on why exactly Goku can "destroy a Galaxy or Unvierse" in one Ki-Blast.
Oh, I've heard, Endless Mike, Haruhi, and myself have been combating that crap for months.