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ESB vader VS ROTS obi wan.
I think vader because obi wan hasn't proved resistent to the dark side really.

Ummm. Kenobi can outmatch him in lightsaber skills.

And Obi1 isn't resistant to the darkside?

His master was slaughtered infront of him. He got just a little annoyed.
He was betrayed by his masters master. He got just a little annoyed.
He was betrayed by his former padawans masters padawans masters padawan and he defeated him and got just a little annoyed.

He confronted Vader 20 years after the duel. He was striken down and he got just a little annoyed.

Kenobi is the ultimate Jedi-personality along with Yoda.

You know what i mean. Dooku wtf pwned him with his force powers. Vader can do the same if not better. Also Vader is a good lightsaber fighter. He killed 5/7 jedi with it.

It's not that Kenobi just got a little annoyed. Rather, he got furious when Qui-Gon was slaughtered, ticked off when Dooku revealed himself to be evil, and horrible depressed and upset that Anakin had chosen death and the Dark Side.

Thing is, he didn't use these emotions for power.

Vader killed a lot of Jedi during the Purge, not just in the comic.

Anyways, I say Vader, though Kenobi is more agile at this point.

Kenobi wins. He's abouyt twice as fast, he's smarter,he has less weaknesses and he's defeated a stronger version of Vader. Vader's stronger due to his suit, but that's it. Their Force powers must be about the same. But Kenobi wins cause seriously how the hell's Vader going to get past Kenobi's Soresu Mastery?

he wont ignite his lightsaber. All he has to do is choke him. He choked a man frrom a mile or more away (ANH) i am sure he can choke Kenobi.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Their Force powers must be about the same.

Kenobi and Vader are equal in the Force? Hardly, Vader has been practicing Darkside techniques for how long now? 22 years or so? Yeah, Vader is > Kenobi in the Force I'd say.

vader has this in the sense that: A, there is no highground, B, this his completely skill, and c, because Vader has the most agressive lightsaber form. Vader also takes this because many people have already told you what i would have said.

Dark side goes like this:
First you start out strong and progress at great speed, then you start to peak. After you peak you become stronger, but slower at becoming stronger.
Light Side:
You start out weak and slow, as you progress you get better, but not as fast as the sith. Next you get better faster, around the time that the sith are slowing down.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
he wont ignite his lightsaber. All he has to do is choke him. He choked a man frrom a mile or more away (ANH) i am sure he can choke Kenobi.
A mile away? When did this happen?


Yeah, maybe your right Vader is 80% of Sidious but Kenobi's really good, too. it'd be close. there's no way Vader could win in a duel, though.

Originally posted by darthsith19
A mile away? When did this happen?


ANH. the executor is many miles long.

Originally posted by Sesse
Ummm. Kenobi can outmatch him in lightsaber skills.

And Obi1 isn't resistant to the darkside?

His master was slaughtered infront of him. He got just a little annoyed.
He was betrayed by his masters master. He got just a little annoyed.
He was betrayed by his former padawans masters padawans masters padawan and he defeated him and got just a little annoyed.

He confronted Vader 20 years after the duel. He was striken down and he got just a little annoyed.

Kenobi is the ultimate Jedi-personality along with Yoda. YOU ARE BIASED, YOU HAVE A KENOBI AVATARARATA (or something)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obi-Wan takes this. He's too good with a lightsaber..

And Vader's not going to choke a Jedi Master nearly as easily as a fat Commander.

Originally posted by overlord
YOU ARE BIASED, YOU HAVE A KENOBI AVATARARATA (or something)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think you mean "fanboy", in which I hold a slight agreement with. Vader beats Obi with the Force.

All he's done with the Force is choke people, which Obi wouldn't let him do...Obi -Wan takes this

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
ANH. the executor is many miles long.
The executor wasn't in ANH. You mean when he choked Admiral Ozzel in ESB? Yes, it may have been over a mile but we really can't say cause we don't know how far Vader's personal chambers are from the bridge.

Vader is 80% as powerful as RotJ Sidious.

RotJ Sidious > RotS Sidious > RotS Dooku in force powers.

However, Vader isn't quite as good as Dooku in the force IMO. Will he still be able to choke Kenobi? I think so.

And the Executor is 19 kilometers(12 miles) long. He choked Admiral Ozzel in ESB, not ANH.

damn. i always get them mixed up. still i am right!

Originally posted by overlord
YOU ARE BIASED, YOU HAVE A KENOBI AVATARARATA (or something)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Overlord is back!

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
he wont ignite his lightsaber. All he has to do is choke him. He choked a man frrom a mile or more away (ANH) i am sure he can choke Kenobi.

Why didn't Anakin do that at Mustafar? I'm sure Obi-Wan would defeat Vader. Come on Obi-Wan is awesome in Revenge of the Sith and Vader is just a shadow of his former self.

Originally posted by Razielim
Vader is 80% as powerful as RotJ Sidious.

RotJ Sidious > RotS Sidious > RotS Dooku in force powers.

However, Vader isn't quite as good as Dooku in the force IMO. Will he still be able to choke Kenobi? I think so.

And the Executor is 19 kilometers(12 miles) long. He choked Admiral Ozzel in ESB, not ANH.
Do we know how far it was from Vader's personal chambers to the bridge where Ozzel was? if not it would have been 12 miles or it could have been .012 miles.

Originally posted by PurpleSaber
Overlord is back! No he isn't. You are mistaken.

Yes master. I am mistaken........mistaken.........mistaken......

*gets hypnotised, falls asleep, and forgets about Overlord*

Wait.. You're from february.. You're not supposed to know me.

Why am I not getting bashed by new guys? What's going on? Have people been warned about me in advance? My privacy is invaded again!!

You were still posting in Feb.

Overlord is back! Woo!

Any whom, about the topic. Vader would just choke him. Vader has been studying the force for over 20 years with Sidious and his suit didn't even set him back that far. I mean, by the time of purge he was confident enough to take on Obi Wan again in a re-match. If anyone can choke Kenobi, it's Vader, and I'm pretty sure he could.I mean Vader has:
Choked Ozzel from far away on his ship.
Choked three people at once: http://www.swcomics.com/empire_c.php?i=8&f=19&name=Star_Wars_-_Empire_19
Choked a Jedi: http://www.swcomics.com/Empire_Era_c.php?i=15&f=36&name=Purge
And, or course,
The Power Choke: http://www.swcomics.com/republic_c.php?i=6&f=78&name=Rise_of_Vader_-_Loyalties

Vader tools him with the force.

For starters he doesn't choke 3 people at once but 2 people, look again, he chokes 2 and then after than he chokes the third one. I was unaware that he was choking the Jedi. I tought he just held her there with the Force and then went over and snapped her neck with his hand. But at any rate it's going to be alot harder to choke Obi-Wan than it was to choke Shadday. And it's not like Obi-Wan's just gonan stand there and let Vader choke hi, either.

Hm. RotS Obi-Wan Kenobi got force-pwned by Dooku.

RotS Sidious is > than Dooku in force powers, I'm guessing.

RotJ Sidious would be stronger in the force by a decent amount. He spent 20 years studying the dark side. He was addicted to it...

Vader is 80% of that.

I can deduce that he can force choke Kenobi.

80% as powerful in Force Potential! Not actual knowledge and strength...

Originally posted by DePWNZOR
80% as powerful in Force Potential! Not actual knowledge and strength...

Lucas didnt say potential, he said 'power'. Take that for what you will.

80% as powerful in Force Potential! Not actual knowledge and strength...

Since when does "80% as powerful as Palpatine" mean "80% of the potential"?

It's not a hard concept to grasp.

Originally posted by Razielim
80% as powerful in Force Potential! Not actual knowledge and strength...

Since when does "80% as powerful as Palpatine" mean "80% of the potential"?

It's not a hard concept to grasp.


Power could be interpreted as potential. Or it could not. Uncertain terms are teh evil.

Vader would win. I just read the passage from A New Hope (written by G-Luc himself) and Kenobi says that both himself and Vader have matured in power, but then Vader went on to defeat Kenobi. Vader beat a more powerful version of Kenobi, so he could defeat ROTS with relative ease.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader would win. I just read the passage from A New Hope (written by G-Luc himself) and Kenobi says that both himself and Vader have matured in power, but then Vader went on to defeat Kenobi. Vader beat a more powerful version of Kenobi, so he could defeat ROTS with relative ease.
Yes, he did say Vader went on to defeat Kenobi, hence Kenobi getting "killed".

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader would win. I just read the passage from A New Hope (written by G-Luc himself) and Kenobi says that both himself and Vader have matured in power, but then Vader went on to defeat Kenobi. Vader beat a more powerful version of Kenobi, so he could defeat ROTS with relative ease.

WTF? I always remember neither of them being able to overcome the other. They were effectively stalemated.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
WTF? I always remember neither of them being able to overcome the other. They were effectively stalemated.

Until.....Kenobi was killed.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Until.....Kenobi was killed.

Erm, did you watch the movie? I seem to remember Kenobi turning his lightsabre off, not getting dominated by Vader.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Erm, did you watch the movie? I seem to remember Kenobi turning his lightsabre off, not getting dominated by Vader.

Well anyways he wouldnt of turned his lightsaber off if he thought he had a chance of winning. Vader was always supposed to be the stronger one.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Well anyways he wouldnt of turned his lightsaber off if he thought he had a chance of winning. Vader was always supposed to be the stronger one.

The ANH commentary makes it clear that Kenobi killed himself so Luke could escape. Vader and Kenobi were effectively equal in terms of fighting prowess.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
The ANH commentary makes it clear that Kenobi killed himself so Luke could escape. Vader and Kenobi were effectively equal in terms of fighting prowess.


Thats news to me, could you put it in GL's exact words? And that argument 'Ben killed himself so Luke could escape' doesnt make much sense to me being Ben would of bought Luke *more* time if he just kept fighting.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Erm, did you watch the movie? I seem to remember Kenobi turning his lightsabre off, not getting dominated by Vader.

And if you continue to watch the movie yu'll notice how Obi-Wans light sabre starts to shorten and thin out during the match. He was fighting a losing battle.

Originally posted by KMC Dark Lord
And if you continue to watch the movie yu'll notice how Obi-Wans light sabre starts to shorten and thin out during the match. He was fighting a losing battle.

LMAO! It's a ****ing technical error! If Kenobi's lightsabre was shorting out, why is it fully ignited a few moments later? And why didn't Vader just kill him then?

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Thats news to me, could you put it in GL's exact words? And that argument 'Ben killed himself so Luke could escape' doesnt make much sense to me being Ben would of bought Luke *more* time if he just kept fighting.
Watch it yourself, you have the DVD, right?

If his saber got shorter it was due to the poor special effects of the saber duel, why would it shrink mean he's losing?


Or you could just read what Swirly Girl posted.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
You know what i mean. Dooku wtf pwned him with his force powers. Vader can do the same if not better.
No, Vader could not.
First off, when Dooku tried using Force lightning, Obi-Wan 'grounded' it with his lightsaber. Dooku did not defeat Obi-Wan by using the Force, but through his superior fencing skills with a lightsaber.
Second, once Vader was maimed and put into his armor, not only could he not use Force lightning, but the suit was restrictive. After 20 years, he had learned to compensate to for it, but he was still nowhere near as acrobatic as he used to be in his 20s.
Thirdly, if this is indeed ESB Vader vs RotS Obi-Wan, then Obi-Wan would have the advantage of being nearly a decade younger than Vader and being a superior swordsman. Vader never defeated Obi-Wan in combat. In ANH, Obi-Wan stopped fighting and let Vader win. Had he wanted to do so, he could probably have continued indefinitely, but I doubt Vader's artificial respirators could cope with extendeded bouts of physical exertion.

The Force grip and push that Dooku used in RotS is no different to the same move Maul used in TPM, and look how that duel worked out... Dooku might have caught Obi-Wan off guard, but that is because he has greater knowledge of the Force. However, chucking someone across a room, does not count as wtf pwning, nor does using the Force to pull a piece of gantry ontop of someone who is already unconscious, so unable to defend themself. The fight took place in that manner for story necessity, but could be interepreted that Dooku viewed Obi-Wan as a greater threat than Anakin, so removed him from the fight by knocking him out and pinning him beneath the gantry so he could focus his attention on fighting Anakin.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
In ANH, Obi-Wan stopped fighting and let Vader win. Had he wanted to do so, he could probably have continued indefinitely, but I doubt Vader's artificial respirators could cope with extendeded bouts of physical exertion.

It doesn't matter if he actually stopped fighting or not. The novelization states if Obi-Wan could have overcame Vader, he would have or something to that effect.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
It doesn't matter if he actually stopped fighting or not.
On the contrary, it makes all the difference. In the movie (which takes precedence over a novelization for canon accuracy) Obi-Wan stopped blocking Vader's attacks, and held his saber as a meditative focus. Vader did not overcome his defence or overpower him. Obi-Wan stopped because he chose to, not because he had to.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
The novelization states if Obi-Wan could have overcame Vader, he would have or something to that effect.
As above, the movie takes precedence over a novelization for canon accuracy.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
On the contrary, it makes all the difference. In the movie (which takes precedence over a novelization for canon accuracy) Obi-Wan stopped blocking Vader's attacks, and held his saber as a meditative focus. Vader did not overcome his defence or overpower him. Obi-Wan stopped because he chose to, not because he had to.


As above, the movie takes precedence over a novelization for canon accuracy.

Actually, show me where in the movie that it ever states anything otherwise you moron?

Ah, yes it doesn't.

If Obi-Wan could have stopped him he would have - which is why it makes no difference. Do you understand that? The novelization doesn't contradict the movie because for:

1.) Obi-Wan doesn't overcome Vader.
2.) There's no mention of Obi-Wan even being able to overcome Vader.

The entire point is just that - IF Obi-Wan COULD HAVE stopped him he WOULD HAVE.

Your argument fails because:

1.) You said Obi-Wan could've continued, and due to Vader's machine parts not being able to keep up (what BS is that anyways?) he would lose. The novelization states otherwise - specifically that Obi-Wan could not defeat Vader.
2.) You fail to realize this.

They stalemated and0 Kenobi gave up because he knew he couldn't win. Mecha-Vader is tougher than you give him credit for; or Kenobi is worse than you give him credit for. Pick one.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Watch it yourself, you have the DVD, right?



No.

ROTS Obi owns!

Any one who whoops Grievous AND Human Vader in day's time is a bonafide bad-ass!

Traya, read Darth Vader's entry in SW databank or read the novel. The choice is yours. The only difference is that in the novel it specifically states that both Obi Wan and Vader have grown stronger.
Vader beat a more powerful version of Kenobi. He can beat this one. Vader wins.

ROTS Anakin practically mowed down the Jedi Knights defending the Temple. How does a Darth Vader who was defeated by 7 knights and masters compare with a Jedi Master who nearly killed him before he was put into that suit that restrains his movements? Possibly, Vader will try and kill Kenobi using his superior Force Powers, but if Obi-Wan can move fast enough, he might be able to avoid this.

I'm not saying that Vader in the suit is weak. He managed to kill the Dark Woman, and, like Avis said, killed 5/7 Jedi at once. Kenobi has his work cut out for him, but I can see him coming out of this fight victorious.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Actually, show me where in the movie that it ever states anything otherwise you moron?

Ah, yes it doesn't.
Want to try clarrifying that half-assed point without having to resort to unnecessary insults?

In the movie (which supercedes the novel for validity) Obi-Wan is having absolutely no trouble defending against Vader. That is the entire point behind his style of fighting. It is almost entirely defensive. The fact that he looks to Luke and gives him a 'check this shit out..." look, before raising his saber to his face and closing his eyes (clearly meditation) makes it pretty clear that he did so intentionally. He knew that doing so would cost him his life, but it was a choice he made himself. It is clear that he was not being overcome and struck down through a flaw in his defence, but because he chose to give no defence. For someone with a Japanese title, you clearly have little knowledge of the concept of bushido, which is one of the things Lucas drew on when creating the Jedi.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
If Obi-Wan could have stopped him he would have - which is why it makes no difference.
You don't understand. Obi-Wan did not want to stop Vader. He wanted to be struck down so he could become one with the Force. As I said above, he was only struck down because he stopped fighting. Also, you are forgetting that for the purposes of the thread, it would be Obi-Wan from RotS, not ANH. What happened when Obi-Wan fought Vader in RotS (when Vader was at the height of his power)? Oh yes, he cut his arm and legs off... When Vader was maimed and put into the suit, he lost almost half his power (Lucas has said as much himself) Even studying for a further twenty years is not going to allow him to replace the midichlorians (which allowed him to interact with the Force) that were lost when his arm and legs were cut off.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
to Vader's machine parts not being able to keep up (what BS is that anyways?)
Note Vader's breathing in RotJ. It is much faster and shallower than in ANH. Even before the damage caused by Palpatine's Force lightning, it is obvious that the exertion was taxing the respirator's ability to function and allow Vader to fight against someone twenty years younger than him. Once more, this duel would involve Obi-Wan being younger than Vader.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
The novelization states otherwise
It doesn't matter what the novelization states, because reference from a movie supercedes a novelization in terms of validity. Regardless of what a novel states, GL has made it perfectly clear that he only considers material from the six movies as accurate. The question does not involve novelization or EU characters, but two canon characters as they appeared in the movies that were referenced.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

2.) You fail to realize this.
You fail to realize that

http://index.echostation.com/trilogy/bendysaber.jpg
I have no idea how Obi Wan kept on fighting with this malfunctioning saber but he is a master after all. But let's imagine how confusing and hard this fight must have been for Vader. He is a genius how he could keep focus and fight the bendy saber technique!!!

Okay - I mean his form is for defense...anyways, did Dooku have extreme trouble blocking Yoda's strikes? Did Yoda have trouble blocking Dooku's strikes? The entire point is, and this contradicts the movie in no way, that if Kenobi could've taken Vader, he would have. How simple is that? Because the fight lasted all of how long? 2-3 minutes of slow paced movement?

You said Kenobi would've won if the fight went on; the novelization contradicts you, not the movie. Tell me - do you know if Obi-Wan made his "plan" up out of thin air or not?



And, who is arguing against that? I'm not. All I'm saying IS that IF Obi-Wan COULD HAVE overcome Vader he WOULD HAVE - either he realized that from the very beginning or realized it during their fight.



Now you are skewing my perspective. I never said Vader was on the verge of wrecking shit with Obi-Wan during the fight we saw, all I said is that if Obi-Wan could've overcome him, he would have - do you understand how simple it is? Obi-Wan could not defeat Vader, and I also never said he was struck down my a "flaw in his defense" so save the whole "Bushido bullshit" for someone else, boy.



You're right, he didn't want to stop him because he friggin' couldn't. If he was able to stop him, he f***ing would have - that's the entire point, he would've changed his plans, done something, I don't know.



Oh yes, who got put in the Dragon Sleeper hold? Obi-Wan. Who got dropkicked? Obi-Wan. Who, if the fight was continued and was on even ground, would've won? Ana-friggin'-kin.



And?



Dooku was older than both Anakin and Obi-Wan. Yoda was older than Palpatine. Vader was older than Luke - need I go on? And Vader has displayed a nice show of agility, too.



Nothing in the movie contradicts the fact that Obi-Wan couldn't have overcame Vader.



ANH novel credited as written by George Lucas, so obviously approval was given for the novel on a level.



You actually succeed in repeating what you have to say over and over, and still it's as meaningless an anything else. Oh, and 2.) You fail to realize this.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama


And, who is arguing against that? I'm not. All I'm saying IS that IF Obi-Wan COULD HAVE overcome Vader he WOULD HAVE - either he realized that from the very beginning or realized it during their fight.




Ever heard of planning to turn your former padawan back to the light?

Originally posted by Master Fox
Ever heard of planning to turn your former padawan back to the light?

Nope.


Ben had lost all hope of turning Vader back to the light... straight from the movies.

Originally posted by Master Fox
Ever heard of planning to turn your former padawan back to the light?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Okay - I mean his form is for defense...anyways, did Dooku have extreme trouble blocking Yoda's strikes? Did Yoda have trouble blocking Dooku's strikes?
Dooku's style of fencing was geared entirely towards blade to blade combat. Obi-Wan's was not. Yoda is nearly 1000 years old. His skill never comes into question given the time he has had to learn and perfect his techniques.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
The entire point is, and this contradicts the movie in no way, that if Kenobi could've taken Vader, he would have.
No. He would not have taken Vader because it was never his intention of doing so. He still had to give Luke the incentive to hate Vader and want to continue to learn to be a Jedi. By saying he'd killed his father, that was good, by getting himself killed as well, that was the 'icing on the cake' in making Luke.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
You said Kenobi would've won if the fight went on; the novelization contradicts you, not the movie.
I didn't say Obi-Wan would have won if the fight want on. He never planned on beating Vader.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Tell me - do you know if Obi-Wan made his "plan" up out of thin air or not?
Given Obi-Wan didn't know Vader was on the Death Star till the last minute, it's unlikely that it was an idea he'd been planning for years. It's more likely, that it was a decision he made once the duel started and he knew Luke could see them. Obi-Wan lied to Luke and manipulated him prior to them leaving Tattooine, it would not be out of character for him to make one last manipulation. The look he gives Luke prior to his meditations, makes it clear he is intending 'something', and it is clearly not to continue fighting, seeing as he holds his saber to his head and closes his eyes.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

And, who is arguing against that? I'm not. All I'm saying IS that IF Obi-Wan COULD HAVE overcome Vader he WOULD HAVE - either he realized that from the very beginning or realized it during their fight.

And I'm saying is that it was never his intention to overcome Vader.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

Now you are skewing my perspective. I never said Vader was on the verge of wrecking shit with Obi-Wan during the fight we saw, all I said is that if Obi-Wan could've overcome him, he would have - do you understand how simple it is?
Do you understand how simple it is that he never intended to overcome him?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Obi-Wan could not defeat Vader
Based on what? The novel? Sorry, but as I said before, the novelization means nothing compared to the movie.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
and I also never said he was struck down my a "flaw in his defense"
I never said that you did. I was pointing out that he was not struck down through superior technique, but because he chose to stop fighting.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
so save the whole "Bushido bullshit" for someone else, boy.
Boy? How old are you?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

You're right, he didn't want to stop him because he friggin' couldn't. If he was able to stop him, he f***ing would have
Why would he? As I said: Stopping Vader was never his plan.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

Oh yes, who got put in the Dragon Sleeper hold? Obi-Wan. Who got dropkicked? Obi-Wan. Who, if the fight was continued and was on even ground, would've won? Ana-friggin'-kin.
Obi-Wan also drop kicked Anakin. This is not about a martial arts fight, but duelling technique. Had the duel continued in RotS, Anakin would not have won, because he is not good enough to break through Obi-Wan's defences.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
And Vader has displayed a nice show of agility, too.
Still nothing compared to the agility he displayed when he was in his 20s

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

Nothing in the movie contradicts the fact that Obi-Wan couldn't have overcame Vader.
Nothing says that he couldn't have overcome Vader either.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

ANH novel credited as written by George Lucas, so obviously approval was given for the novel on a level.
It might have been credited as GL, but it was ghost written, I think by Alan Dean Foster (happy to be corrected there) Since then, Lucas has been very clear that the movies always supercede a novel for validity. Look at the disregard he takes with the EU for example...

No, Obi-wan couldn't defeat Vader, why the HELL ELSE would he be facing him? He thought Vader had to die and encouraged Luke in that direction...Obi-wan was, quite simply, bested.

Except his was made for defense.



Okay? The point was that blocking attacks doesn't mean you are doing so effortlessly, or can win simply because of a 2-3 minute fight.



Really? Show me where it says he developed the plan x amount of time prior to arrival.



That contradicts the Jedi way completely. He wants Luke to fall to the Darkside then? Didn't think so. Point invalid.

Hate leads to the Darkside, Obi-Wan was trying to do everything in his power for Luke not to be conflicted by emotions. That was probably the most ridiculous thing you've said yet.



Still you're implying that Obi-Wan wants Luke to give into his emotions - Darkside ones at that? Simply all I can say is "no".



Really? "Had he wanted to do so, he could probably have continued indefinitely, but I doubt Vader's artificial respirators could cope with extendeded bouts of physical exertion." - that is implying Obi-Wan could've made the fight last, and that Vader due to the "extended amounts of physical exertion" (still BS, does Grevious have trouble? Did Vader have trouble tooling Jedi?) would've lost. Maybe not directly, but indirectly at least.



Then why would it be improbable for him to do such because he couldn't overcome Vader?



And this is written in black and white somewhere? The only thing we have to go on is the novelization about overcoming who, and nothing in the movie contradicts it. For all you know he decided to do such, and realized it when he saw Luke.



Shown where? Thought about where? Said where? Proven by who? You? Laughable.



As I've said, it contradicts nothing.



My mistake.

Still, you can say that he sacrificed himself, but that doesn't contradict the fact that he couldn't overcome Vader. Why wouldn't it be possible for him to sacrifice himself because he couldn't overcome Vader, hm?



As I've said, it contradicts nothing.



No, he tripped him.



Actually, as much is already known. The fact you think Obi-Wan would've won tells me something. As well, tell me what you mean by "breaking through his defenses"? Was the Dragon Sleeper not breaking through? He grabbed his damn arms and almost choked him out for Christ's sake while they were in the middle of a duel.



Yeah, no doubt about that - nonetheless he shows us that he's still agile.



Okay, so nothing in the movie contradicts the fact that he either:

a) could've overcame Vader.

or

b) couldn't have overcame Vader.

So, naturally with adding the "either" you admit that it doesn't contradict anything in the movie (unless it was a mistake on your part). Either way, the novel does give insights into this - and it seems the insights are in favor of what I'm arguing.



Well, considering the novel's statement doesn't contradict anything. And, yes it was ghostwritten by Foster, but when you do ghostwrite something, you need consent. Obviously Lucas hired the guy, with approval to put slap his name on it.

You realize how much we're arguing in circles right?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Except his was made for defense.
Precicely. While Dooku was skilled in actually fencing with a lightsaber, Obi-Wan's skills were more directed toward blocking incoming attacks from blasters (or other sabers). Obi-Wan was clearly able to block all of Vader's attacks, as he was never hit by his blade untill he chose to let it hit him (because he wanted to become one with the Force)

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Okay? The point was that blocking attacks doesn't mean you are doing so effortlessly, or can win simply because of a 2-3 minute fight.
There certainly didn't appear to be as much of an effort to fight Vader as he displayed when fighting Maul, or even when Dooku and Anakin were duelling in RotS, and none of Vader's blows actually landed, so that would count as, if not effortlessly, then certainly not with any difficulty. You are forgetting that this duel would be fought by Obi-Wan in his prime, and Vader way past his.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
That contradicts the Jedi way completely. He wants Luke to fall to the Darkside then? Didn't think so. Point invalid.
On the contrary. Obi-Wan used his rage and hatred to kill Maul. Had Obi-Wan's motives been entirely without manipulation, then he would have told Luke the truth about Vader immediately, not bend the truth to the point of snapping.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

Hate leads to the Darkside, Obi-Wan was trying to do everything in his power for Luke not to be conflicted by emotions. That was probably the most ridiculous thing you've said yet.
As I said, Obi-Wan had experienced and used similar emotions himself to gain the advantage in a duel. Also, Obi-Wan told Luke that his father had been killed by Darth Vader for a specific reason. It certainly wasn't so Luke would think Vader was a great guy. Luke also said that he hated the Empire (Exact words were "I hate it." ) Obi-Wan was (for whatever reason) clearly manipulating Luke.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Still you're implying that Obi-Wan wants Luke to give into his emotions - Darkside ones at that? Simply all I can say is "no".
Obi-Wan's actions speak for themselves. He lied to Luke and manipulated him for no reason. He could have told him the truth about what had happened and how Anakin had killed Padme, that would just as easily got Luke 'on his side', but he didn't, instead, he lied to him. Like he lied to him when he said "Your father wanted you to have this, when you were old enough..." Anakin made no such statement at all.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Really? "Had he wanted to do so, he could probably have continued indefinitely, but I doubt Vader's artificial respirators could cope with extendeded bouts of physical exertion." - that is implying Obi-Wan could've made the fight last, and that Vader due to the "extended amounts of physical exertion" would've lost. Maybe not directly, but indirectly at least.
Because the logical conclusion is that Obi-Wan would have continued blocking until Vader made a mistake. Don't forget, that although Obi-Wan was passed his prime, he still had all his limbs and wasn't confined in a mobile iron lung.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
does Grevious have trouble?
Yes. In Clone Wars, Grievous was able to take on five Jedi while using only two lightsabers. He only used his secondary arms at the end for the element of surprize. In RotS, Grievous had to use four lightsabers in order to take on a single Jedi. The damage that Master Windu inflicted on him with his Force choke clearly affected his combat abilities as well as his breathing.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Did Vader have trouble tooling Jedi?
And where did Vader do that? On screen, or in a comic written by some fanboy with his pen in one hand and his wang in the other? The only Jedi Vader fought onscreen in his armour, was Luke, who, in all honesty, on screen, is hardly the most gifted of Jedi (regardless of what the EU makes him out to be)

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
And this is written in black and white somewhere? The only thing we have to go on is the novelization about overcoming who, and nothing in the movie contradicts it. For all you know he decided to do such, and realized it when he saw Luke.
And once again, the novelization is not a more accurate version of the story than the movie, so what the novel says is irrelevent. As I said above, Obi-Wan's 'plan' was most likely formulated on the spur of the moment, but, given that he had already manipulated Luke and lied to him, it is not unreasonable to suggest that he used his death as a further manipulation. Take a look at Luke's face when Obi-Wan is struck down and he starts shooting the Storm Troopers: What emotion do you see there? Looks like hate to me...

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

Shown where?
By his actions in the movie.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

As I've said, it contradicts nothing.

It might not contradict, but the novel is still not a more accurate telling of the story than the movie. The movie is the more 'valid' telling.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

No, he tripped him.
Whatever. The point was not who could beat each other up better, but who had the superior fencing skills. The fact that Obi-Wan won, shows that his skills were superior to Anakin's, as does the fact that Anakin was not able to overcome Obi-Wan's defence (even while in his prime)

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
tell me what you mean by "breaking through his defenses"?
Making a contact with his blade.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
almost choked him out
With a prosthetic limb that could probably apply more strength than an organic limb.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Yeah, no doubt about that - nonetheless he shows us that he's still agile.
But still not as agile as he was. The point being that Vader is not as powerfull as he used to be (regardless of what a novelization might say, because the movies still show otherwise) Obi-Wan would have been just as agile as he was in RotS. He would have the advantage of both mobility and more effective saber technique.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

Okay, so nothing in the movie contradicts the fact that he either:

a) could've overcame Vader.

or

b) couldn't have overcame Vader.
When viewed as a solo movie, that is correct. It is not however, a stand alone movie, and must be viewed in context with the others, which show that Obi-Wan's area of expertise in using a lightsaber is blocking attacks. Vader is nowhere near as agile in his armor as he was in his 20s. His saber technique is one of attempting to overpower an opponent through sheer strength, there is no finesse or intricate blade manipulation which could penetrate Obi-Wan's defences (as Count Dooku's did)

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Either way, the novel does give insights into this - and it seems the insights are in favor of what I'm arguing.
Just because the novelization supports your argument, it does not mean that the movie does. Once more, the movie is the 100% accurate definitive version of the story. The novelization is is not considered as definitive as the movie.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

Well, considering the novel's statement doesn't contradict anything. And, yes it was ghostwritten by Foster, but when you do ghostwrite something, you need consent. Obviously Lucas hired the guy, with approval to put slap his name on it.

To be brutally honest, Lucas does not care what authors write, because he considers nothing but his movies as accurate. The novelization of RotJ shows Anakin remembering when he was burned, and the filmed version of that event (filmed way after the novel was written) showed a signifigantly different form of immolation. Lucas could just as easily filmed Anakin actually going into the lava and hauling himself out, but he did not, which shows his blatant disregard for novelization or anything he does not personally do. (For the record, I think Lucas is an abysmal writer and a talentless director, but when it comes to what is and is not correct in the Star Wars universe, his word is what counts.)

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

You realize how much we're arguing in circles right?
That's not my fault. Throughout you have clearly forgotten that this fight is not between Obi-Wan and Vader as they were in RotS or Obi-Wan and Vader as they were in ANH, but Obi-Wan (in his prime) as he was in RotS, and Vader (considerably passed his) as he was in ESB. In ESB and RotJ, Vader still does not demonstrate any incredible fencing skills, given the fact that he has spent over 30 years using a lightsaber, and Luke had spent a few months practicing against remotes, so his skills are hardly the standard of a Jedi before the fall of the Order, so he should hardly have posed much of a challenge to someone of Vader's experience. Infact, Zet Jukassa demonstrated better saber technique in a few seconds, than Luke ever did any time he had a saber...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, Obi-wan couldn't defeat Vader, why the HELL ELSE would he be facing him? He thought Vader had to die and encouraged Luke in that direction...
As above, this duel would be between Obi-Wan in his prime, and Vader considerebly passed his. Not as they both were in RotS. Nor as they both were in ANH. RotS Obi-Wan Vs ESB Vader. That was the original line up.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Obi-wan was, quite simply, bested.
At what point did Vader flick Obi-Wan's lightsaber from his grip, or cut a limb off, or make any kind of contact with his blade on Obi-Wan at all?
He was only able to strike Obi-Wan down, because Obi-Wan let him (shown by the ritualistic lightsaber position and meditative expression following the "check this out" look to Luke)

It was a stalemate... They were evenly matched.

If Obi could have beaten him and he gave up, he's an idiot. Really.

And Kenobi is not an idiot.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
That's not my fault. Throughout you have clearly forgotten that this fight is not between Obi-Wan and Vader as they were in RotS or Obi-Wan and Vader as they were in ANH, but Obi-Wan (in his prime) as he was in RotS, and Vader (considerably passed his) as he was in ESB. In ESB and RotJ, Vader still does not demonstrate any incredible fencing skills, given the fact that he has spent over 30 years using a lightsaber, and Luke had spent a few months practicing against remotes, so his skills are hardly the standard of a Jedi before the fall of the Order, so he should hardly have posed much of a challenge to someone of Vader's experience. Infact, Zet Jukassa demonstrated better saber technique in a few seconds, than Luke ever did any time he had a saber... Luke was swinging like Ray Charles at the batter's plate.-Arker

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Dooku was older than both Anakin and Obi-Wan. Yoda was older than Palpatine. Vader was older than Luke
I forgot to deal with this point...
Dooku was older than both Anakin and Obi-Wan, (and got beaten by Anakin) but, he was still very active for a man of his age, and had been living with Coruscant's advanced medical facilities available if he needed them. Come ANH, Obi-Wan had been living in solitude in a desert for twenty years. That kind of existence is going to take it's toll on a person not born to it very quickly. Yoda was older than Palpatine, and he got beaten. Comparing Yoda and Dooku makes a better example. During their duel, Yoda was breathing heavily, he was clearly finding it a challenge to keep up that kind of activity. Age however, can also be relative. Yoda was about 800 years old. Dooku was about 80. Both near the upper reaches of their individual species lifetimes. Comparitively speaking, their ages were very similar, and in terms of fighting, they pretty much stalemated each other. Vader was older than Luke, but missing his arms and legs and trapped in a mobile iron lung. Luke's inexperience (and eventual reluctance to kill him) was probably the only thing that saved him. As I said above, Luke's skills are no better than those of a Youngling. Vader (in ANH, ESB or RotJ) would never have been able to stand up to a fully-trained Jedi in their prime.

Yeah, because every one of these fully trained Jedi in their prime can stand up to someone 80% as powerful as Palpatine.

BTW, that's incorrect. Vader has stomped on many of these uber PT Jedi.

RIGHT after being put into the suit, too. Before really getting used to the suit.

Originally posted by Razielim
Yeah, because every one of these fully trained Jedi in their prime can stand up to someone 80% as powerful as Palpatine.
Why would they not be able to?

Originally posted by Razielim
BTW, that's incorrect. Vader has stomped on many of these uber PT Jedi.

RIGHT after being put into the suit, too. Before really getting used to the suit.
As I said before: Where did Vader do that? On screen, or in a comic written by some fanboy with his pen in one hand and his wang in the other? We all know how little weight the EU carries compared to the actual movies, so using novelization, EU novels and EU comics (which do not mean shit compared to the actual movies) as evidence, is irrelevent when discussing two canon characters, in their canon setting.

Except the EU is official and you are not. Therefore the EU>You.

Man, Vious is putting a new lease on ignorance. Fanboys? They're men Lucas's own company hired, approved and reviewed to write these materials and Lucas, at times, takes quite an active stand in the EU. Dark Empire, Tales of the Jedi, the novelizations?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except the EU is official and you are not.
The EU is not as official as the actual movies. Lucas has said as much himself and contradicted EU when he filmed the PT. This debate was not about EU characters, but canon characters, taken from their canon settings.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Man, Vious is putting a new lease on ignorance
I'm not the one who can't keep levels of relevence clear... Movies outweigh anything. Cartoons (such as Clone Wars) are something that is presented in it's entireity to the audience (with no room for imagination to come into effect like when reading a novel) so are the next most 'accurate'. Novels and graphic novels are at the bottom of the pile. Lucas might approve them, but he still contradicts the EU whenever he feels like it, so it is not useable as argument when debating the movies.

And it's a coincidence Lucas gave numerous nods to the EU within the movies?

And guess what? This is an EU forum, get used to it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And it's a coincidence Lucas gave numerous nods to the EU within the movies?
For ever 'nod' he gives, he ignores just as many elements of the EU. Prime example being the 501st. It was never stated on screen that those troopers were the 501st, it was only in the novel and EU that has been revealed.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And guess what? This is an EU forum, get used to it.
Yes, it is an EU forum, ergo, it is a place to discuss the EU. That still does not make the EU any more valid, and it will never make the EU more valid than the movies.

And that's great...Lucas somehow went onscreen and said "These troopers are NOT the 501st, they will never be the 501st?" No contradictions, try again.

And once more: You're shadowboxing, this is an EU forum, EU will be used.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And that's great...Lucas somehow went onscreen and said "These troopers are NOT the 501st, they will never be the 501st?" No contradictions, try again.
It might not be a contradiction, but there is also still no corroboration onscreen that they were the 501st. Where did Palpatine say to Vader "Take the 501st to the Jedi Temple and wipe them out?" No, I don't think he did... Where were the troopers in anyway adressed or identified by their legion? They were not. The EU has said that they were, and that's fine. That does not mean, however, that that is in anyway more valid than what the movie did (or did not) show.


Originally posted by Lightsnake
And once more: You're shadowboxing, this is an EU forum, EU will be used.
No, I'm not, you're just refusing to accept that the movies are more valid than the EU. As I said before, even if this is a forum for discussing the EU, that still does not make the EU any more valid than evidence taken from the movies.

And nothing contradicts so, so it's C-canon.

Movies are more valid, but since they contradict nothing in this case? Nothing, absolutely nothing says Vader didn't do what he did in the suit. You started this with your inflammatory remarks over the EU, so don't whine if it gets thrown back in your face. This is an EU forum and thus, EU can and will be used in debates

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And nothing contradicts so, so it's C-canon.
Once more, there might not be contradiction, but there was no confirmation either. Once more: (and I would like an answer this time) When where the troopers in any way identified or adressed by their legion ID in the movie of RotS?


Originally posted by Lightsnake
You started this with your inflammatory remarks over the EU, so don't whine if it gets thrown back in your face. Inflammatory remarks over the EU? Care to point them out? All I've pointed out is the fact that movies take precedence over EU for validity, you're the one who's started whining about this being an EU forum.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is an EU forum and thus, EU can and will be used in debates
And I did not deny that. What I pointed out though, as I said above, is that the EU is not as valid as the movies. The feats attributed to Vader in the EU have never been displayed on screen, so when refering to canon characters in their canon settings (which this topic was:
Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
ESB vader VS ROTS obi wan. ) Trying to use the EU to make a point not in the movies does not work, because it is not as valid as the movie.

Palpatine is quoted as calling a group of stormies as an entire legion of his best troops in ROTJ, that's good enough for me.

And oh, yeah, you only called EU authors fanboys with their dicks in their hands.

And once more: No contradiction, that's all that matters and in this argument, given the place, EU will be used as it is valid and only secondary canon to the movies. And it's more valid than you, so it trumps your opinion rather well

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine is quoted as calling a group of stormies as an entire legion of his best troops in ROTJ, that's good enough for me.
Let's try again.
When where the troopers in any way identified or adressed by their legion ID in the movie of RotS?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And oh, yeah, you only called EU authors fanboys with their dicks in their hands.
And what?

Originally posted by Lightsnake

And once more: No contradiction,
And no confirmation either.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
in this argument, given the place, EU will be used as it is valid and only secondary canon to the movies.
It is still not as canon as the movies, and was not mentioned in the original post. Had it said RoDV Vader vs LOE Obi-Wan then fair enough for using EU reference, but it did not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And it's more valid than you, so it trumps your opinion rather well
? I've only commented on what was actually shown in the movies, so the only 'opinion' I've given, is one of facts backable by reference to the movies (which are more canon than EU) I'm not wasting any more time debating which is more canon, because everyone knows that the movies are the A+ ultimate definitive version of canon, and always more valid than any other medium. If you want to try refering to the movie depiction of either character to try and validate a point, then by all means, let me know

We know there are legions, the EU expands on it. Good enough for me.

That's not inflammatory to the EU? Hm, sign me up to what world you live on.

And once more: It doesn't need confirmation, it's there in the EU and contradicts nothing and THAT is LFL's policy on canon.

And your facts are getting hurled back in your face due to the fact we're in an eU forum so the EU applies to the argument whether you like it or not

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We know there are legions, the EU expands on it. Good enough for me.
Can you not answer a simple question?
When where the troopers in any way identified or adressed by their legion ID in the movie of RotS?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's not inflammatory to the EU?
No. It's a statement of fact. It's not as if I've said that the EU was a pile of shit (even though I did point out that the authors are a bunch of fanboys) For the record, I think Lucas is a shitty writer and a talentless director, but I still accept that the movies are the most valid canon.



Originally posted by Lightsnake
And once more: It doesn't need confirmation,
It does if it's going to be referenced as a fact.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And your facts are getting hurled back in your face due to the fact we're in an eU forum so the EU applies to the argument whether you like it or not
I think that's the other way round, you're the one who apparently can't answer a simple question or discuss the characters as they were portrayed in the movies without the EU as back up. As I said before, if it had said RoDV Vader Vs LOE Obi-Wan then fine, use EU reference for the characters, but the original post did not. It said ESB Vader vs RotS Obi-Wan. No mention of EU at all. Just because this is an EU forum, that does not mean that it must be applied to every discussion. And even when it is applied, it still does not take precedence of validity over the primary source material of the movies.

It's a statement of fact that the authors are masturbating fanboys? Mmmhmm, there goes your credibility.

And this is movie vs. movie? Great, we can use EU pertaining to the movies to back it up, end of story. I believe those're the rules of the forum

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's a statement of fact that the authors are masturbating fanboys?
No, that's just my own opinion, I never actually said it was a fact...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mmmhmm, there goes your credibility.
You want to talk about credibility? Answer this question (Third time lucky), and then we'll discuss credibility:
When where the troopers in any way identified or adressed by their legion ID in the movie of RotS?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And this is movie vs. movie?
So the first post said...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Great, we can use EU pertaining to the movies to back it up, end of story. I believe those're the rules of the forum
That still does not mean that the EU reference is more canon than the movie reference though. It might 'back up' a point that the movie has already made, but it certainly does not add to or detract anything from the validity of the movie. Example: Vader striking down Obi-Wan in ANH. Regardless of what the novelization said, the movie did not show Obi-Wan having any great difficulty in defending himself against Vader (nor of Vader being able to best him) The movie did however, show Obi-Wan glance at Luke, give him a 'check this out' look, and then hold his saber to his face and close his eyes. That was clearly not a combative attitude, but one intentionally leaving him completely open to the attack. Given that he had been able to hold Vader off with no difficulty for the rest of the duel, there is no evidence to suggest that Vader could have over come him and struck him down, so the conclusion is that Obi-Wan let Vader strike him down, because he wanted to become one with the Force.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And it's a coincidence Lucas gave numerous nods to the EU within the movies?

Exactly.In an interview somewhere,Lucas said that Dark Empire,Dark Empire 2,and Empire's End were the closest thing to a Sequel Trilogy. Go look it up on Wookieepedia.

He also told LA to put colors on Delta Squad in the Republic Commando video game so as to keep up with the continuity.

Originally posted by DE Luke
Exactly.In an interview somewhere,Lucas said that Dark Empire,Dark Empire 2,and Empire's End were the closest thing to a Sequel Trilogy. Go look it up on Wookieepedia.

He also told LA to put colors on Delta Squad in the Republic Commando video game so as to keep up with the continuity.
And as I said before, for every reference he does keep from the EU, he just as quickly writes over it with a movie. History of Boba Fett (one of my worst characters) for example... Anakin falling in lava somehow turning to catching fire in the movie...

There's no confirmation of Vader hunted down and destroying the Jedi Knight?

It was mentioned in ANH.

And Vader was holding off Kenobi quite well, too. It's also arguable that he was toying with Kenobi. Compare how he (Prowse) fights in ANH to how he fights in ESB (He is a professional fencer in the Bespin Duel).

Okay, I stopped reading the posts. I'm just saying on-topic things now. George Lucas says that Vader and Obi Wan have grown more powerful sense that last time they fought. From A New Hope, the novel. Also, it shouldn't be debated as to weather Vader beat Kenobi, because he did.

"Vader found himself face to face with his former master, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Vader defeated the aged Jedi Knight in a lightsaber duel." http://starwars.com/databank/character/darthvader/index.html