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Who would be the strongest in both worlds?

Pre retcon beyonder definitely

beyonder and JLU amazo

I think JLU amazo will take out beyonder.

Pre retcon Beyonder was playing with galaxies because he was bored. Moving a planet is no where near that impressive.

who is he?

kinda like ur marion thing

dude he moved that planet with ease to another dimension. and did you see what he did to put it back!!!!! i have no doubt he could rearrange a galaxy or who knows what

Pre retcon Beyonder could have destroyed the universe with a thought. Its not really comparable

Besides all Beyonder has to do is create another grundy seein as how Amazo couldn't deal with him.

JLU Amazo didn't seem to be able to do anything the old Ion couldn't

Originally posted by EkinEku
dude he moved that planet with ease to another dimension. and did you see what he did to put it back!!!!! i have no doubt he could rearrange a galaxy or who knows what

so galactus puts planets in his stomach and we dont see them again.

JLU Amazo is the weakest here.
Full Powered Galactus, Pre-retcon Beyonder and Eternity are far beyond JLU Amazo.

Pre-retcon Beyonder is by far the most powerful here. But how it stands for now, it's Eternity.

It doesn't say Pre Retcon Beyonder.
It says Beyonder, and all his old feats were fake, and he's not on that level.

beyonder

beyonder at his Pre level was GOD.

Originally posted by kgkg
beyonder at his Pre level was GOD. No, but very very high on the list. Probably highest in Marvel at the time.
But the choices on the list don't say anything about Pre Retcon Beyonder, so why is he even being discussed?

Dude as far as we know Pre retcon Beyonder is the highest on the food chain. There was an arguement like this before but it was a stalmate because nothing could really be proven.

Originally posted by Big Sexy
Dude as far as we know Pre retcon Beyonder is the highest on the food chain. There was an arguement like this before but it was a stalmate because nothing could really be proven. He was the highest on the Marvel food chain, but he was far from God. God could not be duped, for example, and lose his powers to Dr Doom.

Thats your opinion,not fact

anyway this whole beyonder thing is a beaten dead horse. It was argued plenty in the what if Pre Retcon Beyonder invaded DC earth thread.

A true omniscient, as Beyonder claimed he was, would have already known the future, because time would not be relivent... But, it was.... You think Dr Doom could do that to a true omnipotent, omnicient God?

He was very powerful, yes, probably the most powerful in Marvel at the time, but he was also full of shit most of the time.

Originally posted by Big Sexy
anyway this whole beyonder thing is a beaten dead horse. It was argued plenty in the what if Pre Retcon Beyonder invaded DC earth thread. Like I said, Its been beaten to death dude. The thread with the Beyonder has been argued on both sides without any true winner. They are really no more points that can be made.

I cannot vote here, my name isn't on the list!

Out of that list it goes.

Eternity
Beyonder
Galactus
Amazo

The One Above All (not the celestial)
his name basically is what he is

If I have to by this list, then it's:

pre-retcon Beyonder
Eternity
Galactus(full power)
JLU Amazo

or

Eternity
Galactus(normal)
JLU Amazo
post-retcon Beyonder

but if the most powerful trully in either universes, then it would be:

Marvel-(in order)
pre-retcon Beyonder
pre-retcon Molecule Man
Thanons(HOTU)
Phoenix Force
Living Tribunal

DC-(not in order)
the Endless
the Imps
Hyperman
Spectre
the Brothers

Originally posted by Fieldy69
The One Above All (not the celestial)
his name basically is what he is

Originally posted by Mr Master
If I have to by this list, then it's:

pre-retcon Beyonder
Eternity
Galactus(full power)
JLU Amazo

or

Eternity
Galactus(normal)
JLU Amazo
post-retcon Beyonder

but if the most powerful trully in either universes, then it would be:

Marvel-(in order)
pre-retcon Beyonder
pre-retcon Molecule Man
Thanons(HOTU)
Phoenix Force
Living Tribunal

DC-(not in order)
the Endless
the Imps
Hyperman
Spectre
the Brothers

Going by current continuity Phoenix performed greater feats than anything Pre ret Beyonder or Molecule man did. Pre ret Molecule man required aid from Silver surfer to fix that fissure in Colorado. The Watchers word alone pertaining to his placing in the hierarchy is insufficient when it is not backed up by on panel feats.

By presentation alone Pre ret Beyonder was certainly the most powerful in his time. But Phoenix has since been presented as more powerful and has more impressive feats in addition. The Phoenix Force spawns the multiverse, not the other way around so even if the debatably hyperbolic million times greater line was taken as fact it would change nothing as the multiverse is a creation. The Phoenix stems from the White Hot Room which itself is outside of and overlooks all of creation, including the Beyond Realm.

I can't wait until Bob Newhart wakes up and tells us Phoenix was all just a dream.

dark phoenix and eternity

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Going by current continuity Phoenix performed greater feats than anything Pre ret Beyonder or Molecule man did. Pre ret Molecule man required aid from Silver surfer to fix that fissure in Colorado. The Watchers word alone pertaining to his placing in the hierarchy is insufficient when it is not backed up by on panel feats.

You should've kept it at your opinion of Phoenix being more powerful, once you went into ATTEMPTING to demean Molecule Man's power, you put your foot in your mouth, as you've done many a times before.

Molecule Man DID NOT require or need anyone's help to repair that fissure in Colorodo, you being a true debater I wonder why you have to make things up, is it sub-conciously or is it deliberate?

He also DID NOT need anyone's help to direct ALL of Beyonder's energy(once he died and exploded)into the new universe it created.

He did these things on his own, with his own power, yes I know it's sickening to think that the "Phoenix Force" is such a tuff guy yet is no where to be found when ALL of existence is on the line. And according to even you it existed in 84' - 85', when Beyonder was at his peak, and if everyone(characters-writers and even the owner of the company)acknowledged that Beyonder was the most powerful creation ever, and Molecule Man second, then we must all agree.

What feats are you searching for anyway, I threw a truck load in our last debate,(http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=399313&highlight=beyonder)and I conclusively prooved through scans, not talk)no pun intented, that on a multiversal scale

Beyonder had absolute power
Beyonder had absolute control over the soul
Beyonder had absolute control over the mind
Beyonder had absolute control over time
Absolute control over space
and Absolute control over reality

Everything the IG can do on a multiversal scale and beyond.

Ofcourse I only debate with proof, so here is you lying about the Molecule Man needing Silver Surfers help for anything, LOLOLOL, the only thing Silver Surfer do during this period is hold the dead baby that was once the Beyonder and he says, "the baby is dead", HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Pre ret Molecule man required aid from Silver surfer to fix that fissure in Colorado

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHALOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Watchers word alone pertaining to his placing in the hierarchy is insufficient when it is not backed up by on panel feats.

Here one of the few(literally)times that the Watchers agree to interfere in a crisis, that's how serious the threat of the Beyonder was to ALL existence.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Going by current continuity Phoenix performed greater feats than anything Pre ret Beyonder or Molecule man did.

And the ONLY being that they could imagine stopping the Beyonder:

No not the Phoenix Force or the Living Tribunal or any of the Abstracts, or the so called "OAA" no, it was MOLECULE MAN! They came begging(literally).

Oh by the way ALL the other hierarchies were busy doing the same, begging, the Beyonder personally, he thought they were a joke.

actully the list should go
thanos with hotu
beyonder
molecule man
pheonix/ living tribunal
thanos with ig

Originally posted by bigbran
actully the list should go
thanos with hotu
beyonder
molecule man
pheonix/ living tribunal
thanos with ig

I don't think so,

when Thanos absorbed "everything", it obviously wasn't ALL existence, had it been and Warlock would've been sucked in as well, along with gamora and atleza,(that child that anchors our reality in place in the cosmic vortex without even knowing it)she's maaad powerful.
But when Beyonder posed a threat to the multiverse, at the time it was ALL existence except for his, ALL existence in Marvel. So therefore Beyonder had to have been more powerful than Thanons.

It's just like the contrast between money and time, just because nowadays you can be worth 50 to 90 billion dollars, doesn't mean you were richer than a guy worth 5 billion in the early 1900's let's say. They say Rockefeller was the richest man ever, and he never had anything close 50 or 90 billion like Gates has had and has.

So if Beyonder affetced or could of affected everything in the absolute sense in his time, then by definition he had more power than Thanos, since Thanos could not affect everything in his time.

1)The Presence/TOAA

2)Spectre/Lucifer/Michael/Phoenix/LT/Great Evil Beast

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By presentation alone Pre ret Beyonder was certainly the most powerful in his time.

Absolutely, I agree

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But Phoenix has since been presented as more powerful and has more impressive feats in addition.

I want to know what feats these are, If your talking about Phoenix remaking the 616 universe in her hands that's impressive, but Beyonder contained an explosion that would have disintegrated the Micro-verse, even Scion(a character from the Micronaut universe that has traversed many realities, some know it all character)said that was impossible by all scientific-arcane-and psionic so called "laws of limitation". This is because Beyonder operates with energies even alien to the hierarchy of the 84'-85' multiverse, which is also why Beyonder said that he affects this multiverse in many ways without even knowing it just by being here.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix Force spawns the multiverse, not the other way around so even if the debatably hyperbolic million times greater line was taken as fact it would change nothing as the multiverse is a creation.

I know she gives it life, and I always agreed that she is the most powerful being amongst all beings that reside within that multiverse, but uhh Beyonder was not one of them, and I also think Thanos was above Phoenix during the End series. sorry. I had him below Phoenix but after researching those issues thoroughly, dare I say on par with Beyonder.

And what are you talking about "the multiverse is a creation"???
What doest that have to do with Beyonder being Millions of Times more Powerful than the rest of the Multiverse Combined, what? That he's Millions of Times more Powerful than the Multiverse Phoenix created?

Think about it, this is the Multiverse she created, this must be around the best she could do because she made it and has apparently kept it, lol. Yet it had Millions of Times less energy than the Beyonder had by himself.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix stems from the White Hot Room which itself is outside of and overlooks all of creation, including the Beyond Realm.

Well it might overlook whatever the beyond realm is now, but it certainly didn't in the pre-retcon era. Let's not forget Beyonder was everything outside the multiverse in 84'- to late 86', I believe it's november or october to be exact.

but beyonder was defeated, thanos wasnt, and thanos just wanted to destroy the universe, not the multiverse.

Originally posted by batdude123
1)The Presence/TOAA

2)Spectre/Lucifer/Michael/Phoenix/LT/Great Evil Beast

Why are you putting GEB amongst the others, he's the Presences's equal, and if your gonna stick with supreme beings then you better throw in a coulple of others, like Elaine(michael's sister), Max Farraday who controls the "creation equation",
and where's Thanos with the HOTU, the End series sometimes suggest that there is no supreme being, that it's just a mass of infinite energy, just waiting to be absorbed, and then sometimes it suggest that even in that most incomprehensible levels of power, "God" or the Supreme being" is somehow manipulating everything, even like allowing Thanos to aquire such power, to serve his unknowable divine purpose. And where's pre-retcon Beyonder, he's definitely above most here.

Originally posted by bigbran
but beyonder was defeated, thanos wasnt, and thanos just wanted to destroy the universe, not the multiverse.

Come again,

when was Beyonder "defeated"?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Why are you putting GEB amongst the others, he's the Presences's equal, and if your gonna stick with supreme beings then you better throw in a coulple of others, like Elaine(michael's sister), Max Farraday who controls the "creation equation",
and where's Thanos with the HOTU, the End series sometimes suggest that there is no supreme being, that it's just a mass of infinite energy, just waiting to be absorbed, and then sometimes it suggest that even in that most incomprehensible levels of power, "God" or the Supreme being" is somehow manipulating everything, even like allowing Thanos to aquire such power, to serve his unknowable divine purpose. And where's pre-retcon Beyonder, he's definitely above most here.

Sorry, I forgot some.

One of the few appearances of the so called Presence.

He's approaching.

And here he is.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And here he is.

However, that's not his TRUE form. That's what we have to perceive him as. Not even Elaine, Lucifer, and Michael know what his true form is I've heard.

a very rare cameo, wouldn't you say.

Originally posted by batdude123
However, that's not his TRUE form. That's what we have to perceive him as. Not even Elaine, Lucifer, and Michael know what his true form is I've heard.

True, but it's still rare, he doesn't show himself in any form usually, just a voice if that, but yes, he can assume any form he wishes.

Originally posted by batdude123
However, that's not his TRUE form. That's what we have to perceive him as. Not even Elaine, Lucifer, and Michael know what his true form is I've heard. he appeared to look like Colonel Sanders from KFC

doom with claw and galactuss homeworld power beat beyonder.

Jlu amazo at the end of the episode asked why should'nt he end life in the universe to Luthor

Originally posted by Broly92
Jlu amazo at the end of the episode asked why should'nt he end life in the universe to Luthor Trust me dude, there are so many people in DC that could curbstomp his ass. He wouldn't have destroyed anything

was amazo that gold android? because im still trying to figue out who that is. the one in the episode that ran through the entire jlu.

yes

that fugger was tough. and thanks.
he knocked out th e gl corps and supes and everyone.

But I didn't see much to indicate he was a match for classic ion, let alone the Beyonder

im just saying that i finnally know who tha android is. he did beat everybody though.

Except Grundy

thats because he shot a weak little shot, and it didnt effect him because of the black magic. he didnt even try to fight him.

Because he would have got tossed. Fate even said that his magic was as useless as Amazos tec to Grundy

well amazo also ran through an entire fleet of people and ships(including supes and the corps) and he knocked everything out. and grundy actully had a fight with supes, amazo knocked supes out and he destroyed supergirl with one punch. amazo woudnt have really beaten him, but grundy couldnt either. damn overated mace.

jubilee

Originally posted by diabloman
jubilee

Wolverine

Originally posted by batdude123
Wolverine batman

Originally posted by diabloman
batman

Jazz........

Now, I'm sorry, but nobody can beat that. Seriously his only mutant power is to turn his skin blue.







































































































Btw, give Batman enough prep time and he can beat Galactus.

Originally posted by batdude123
Jazz........

Now, I'm sorry, but nobody can beat that. Seriously his only mutant power is to turn his skin blue.







































































































Btw, give Batman enough prep time and he can beat Galactus. give batman some sleeping pills and maybe he will have a nice dream of doing that

nemo

franklin, he can tie his shoes and count by two's.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You should've kept it at your opinion of Phoenix being more powerful, once you went into ATTEMPTING to demean Molecule Man's power, you put your foot in your mouth, as you've done many a times before.

Molecule Man DID NOT require or need anyone's help to repair that fissure in Colorodo, you being a true debater I wonder why you have to make things up, is it sub-conciously or is it deliberate?

He also DID NOT need anyone's help to direct ALL of Beyonder's energy(once he died and exploded)into the new universe it created.

He did these things on his own, with his own power, yes I know it's sickening to think that the "Phoenix Force" is such a tuff guy yet is no where to be found when ALL of existence is on the line. And according to even you it existed in 84' - 85', when Beyonder was at his peak, and if everyone(characters-writers and even the owner of the company)acknowledged that Beyonder was the most powerful creation ever, and Molecule Man second, then we must all agree.


Dont accuse me of making things up Mr M and do not start throwing insults because i choose to have a different opinion to yours.
Carry on and we both know how this will end.

We've already been through this many a time and we concluded in the previous thread that Pre retcon Beyonder despite your OPINION on his placing in the hierarchy, he does not have an actual feat beyond Phoenixes top feats despite character comments. With that in mind why you have chosen to post in this new thread a mfew months later that not only C. Beyonder but Pre retcon MM are beyond Phoenix is beyond me. (Im thinking it has something to do with my recent absence ) That is an opinion of yours and one that is not conclusively verified on panel. Character comments have placed Hercules as the strongest powerhouse, however by powerset and feats we know the Hulk is. Comments alone arent enough and are meaningless when not backed up by feats which conclusively support the point being made.

Yeah Beyonder and Molecule Man have performed alot of impressive feats, however none of them are more impressive than Phoenixes best feats and therefore you can never treat your opinion as fact. Because its not and never will be without some major 360 from Marvel.

Phoenix was around when Beyonder was about however she never faced Beyonder and we now know her home dimension is beyond creation. With that in mind you can assume NOT A THING. Even if you treat as fact the debatably hyperbolic comments your argument relies on you have no evidence to prove your point, the comments just dont apply with that in mind, whereas i can refer to her more impressive feats. It will always come down to that MM and your opinion will change nothing. Even back in the 80's PRIOR to the retcon as me and Leonidas highlighted from the official sources the Beyond Realm didnt encompass all that was beyond the multiverse but instead an other dimensional (beyond the main marvel dimension) universe. Therefore current Phoenix would overlook his realm from the white hot room anyway.


Originally posted by Mr Master
What feats are you searching for anyway, I threw a truck load in our last debate,(http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=399313&highlight=beyonder)and I conclusively prooved through scans, not talk)no pun intented, that on a multiversal scale

Im not doubting his power. I never have. I have a problem with you treating your assumptions and your interpretation of scenes as fact. Thats all. Beyonder was ridiculously powerful however he wasnt conclusively the most powerful being to have ever existed in marvel. Character comments of the time painted him as such theres no doubt about that, however when it came down to feats and his performance on panel said comments just werent supported. His feats arent the best and current Phoenix exists and operates from a higher dimension. Im sorry my friend.


Originally posted by Mr Master
Ofcourse I only debate with proof, so here is you lying about the Molecule Man needing Silver Surfers help for anything, LOLOLOL, the only thing Silver Surfer do during this period is hold the dead baby that was once the Beyonder and he says, "the baby is dead", HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHALOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!


Nope. Silver Surfer certainly helped him in the later issue of the mini. If you have the comic book at hand you'd know this as well. Why not post that instead of an earlier and therefore irrelevant scan. I unfortunately am away working hence my recent absence. Im posting this from work so i dont have access to all my scans, but you better believe i'll be back in force sometime very soon. I cant allow you lil upstarts to spout this garbage like its the gospel.

Thats all.

-GS

most powerful? nanny.

http://www.rapsheet.co.uk/Images/Characters/Nanny.jpg

http://www.rapsheet.co.uk/RapSheetMain/Character2.asp?UniqueId=341

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont accuse me of making things up Mr M and do not start throwing insults because i choose to have a different opinion to yours.

Scuse the harshness of my words,
but it pisses me off when you make stuff up to validify your point or opinion.
I accused you of making stuff up, because you did, you should know by now I research these comics obssessively, so why even try to slide in some fantasy as fact, and if it wasn't bad enough that you did it, you did to me, by replying to my post. That's a violation of my knowledge. Siver Surfer DID NOT in ANY WAY help Molecule Man do anything at ANY TIME DURING the SECRET WARS SAGA. I'll bet my KMC reputation on that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
We've already been through this many a time and we concluded in the previous thread that Pre retcon Beyonder despite your OPINION on his placing in the hierarchy, he does not have an actual feat beyond Phoenixes top feats despite character comments.

Why don't we let the onlookers be the judge of that, anyone who is interested in seeing what pre-retcon Beyonder is all about check out:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=399313&highlight=beyonder
It has a wealth of facts, opinions, speculations and scans of Classic Beyonder.
And still waiting to see what Phoenix can do that Beyonder can't.
It's interesting that you made up MM needing SS's help, when in fact it was Phoenix, who actually needed help from several X-Men when preventing the Lattice of the Mkraan from crystal from shattering.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With that in mind why you have chosen to post in this new thread a mfew months later that not only C. Beyonder but Pre retcon MM are beyond Phoenix is beyond me.

Because Phoenix in my opinion is useless in actual confrontation, it's never around, so what's it's point? When Beyonder threatened everything Phoenix Force is inactive. And it goes on but I'll only name a few:

Korvac threat = Phoenix inactive
Thanos/IG threat = Phoenix inactive
Akhenaten threat = Phoenix inactive
Thanos/HOTU threat = Phoenix inactive
What does it take for this Phoenix Force to appear and do SOMETHING.
Ok, her feats are impressive, molding 616 universe in her hands, Beyonder created Star Systems and disintegrated those same Star Systems on a whim showing off, without any concentration, and he made Dimensions collapse, where thousands to millions of Star Systems can exist, without even noticing it, just for being in our Mulitiverse.
Star System - a large number of stars with a perceptible structure; a galaxy.
He also contained that explosion that defies all science-arcane and psionic "laws of limitation" according Scion of the Micronauts, it would have disintegrated the Microverse.

The bottom line is, if the Phoenix Force existed in Classic Beyonder's days, then by definition Beyonder was more powerful than the Phoenix Force, and so was Molecule Man since he was the SeCOND most powerful being in ALL existence.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That is an opinion of yours and one that is not conclusively verified on panel. Character comments have placed Hercules as the strongest powerhouse, however by powerset and feats we know the Hulk is. Comments alone arent enough and are meaningless when not backed up by feats which conclusively support the point being made.

Then don't you use character comments to prove your point ever again, cause I have seen you plenty of times quoting some character to solidify your opinion as fact, like for instance, when you used Beyonder's own words to try and prove that Beyonder said, Rachel is the closest thing to him on this planet. In actuality, He was referring to the Phoenix Force itself, because he CLEARLY said " This ENTITY Rachel's(notice the apostraphe S)Power, is extraordinary"
Who's extraordinary? The ENTITY, that is Rachel's Power. Thank You.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix was around when Beyonder was about however she never faced Beyonder and we now know her home dimension is beyond creation.

We ALL wonder why she didn't face him, but Beyonder is Beyond this creation aswell.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Even if you treat as fact the debatably hyperbolic comments your argument relies on you have no evidence to prove your point, the comments just dont apply with that in mind, whereas i can refer to her more impressive feats.

Uhh GS, my argument does not only rely on a stupid comment, I have plenty of scans that I have posted of Beyonder displaying many feats, not please indulge me, and show me what Phoenix has done that's beyond what Beyonder can do, let's go scan for scan.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It will always come down to that MM and your opinion will change nothing.

What opinion? Facts my friend FACTS.
I showed the Scan of MM saving everybody by HIMSELF, this is not an opinion, take that to your minions. I'll post it again if you wish, I'll post the whole comic book if you want.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Even back in the 80's PRIOR to the retcon as me and Leonidas highlighted from the official sources the Beyond Realm didnt encompass all that was beyond the multiverse but instead an other dimensional (beyond the main marvel dimension) universe. Therefore current Phoenix would overlook his realm from the white hot room anyway

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHALOLOLOLOLOL
Don't try and make allies when trapped, Leon only proved that the New Universe was created in late 1986 november, but in 84' to late 86' Beyonder was ALL there was beyond the multiverse.
There are two bios friend,
In one:http://www.marveldirectory.com/otherdimensions/beyond.htm
This one clearly tells us that beyond our own reality lies THE universe of the Beyonder.
Not A universe, Not ONE of MANY universes, JUST THE UNIVERSE.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
current Phoenix exists and operates from a higher dimension. Im sorry my friend.

Apparently to HIGH to even be considered in these versus forums anymore, LOL.
The Phoenix has always been an interesting cosmic entity...when it/she was first revealed, The Watcher, (I believe), said the Phoenix Force was second only to God. Hyperbole, for sure, that should be ignored...since Galactus was once referred to, (by the same Watcher), as the most powerful being in the universe. Fast-forward to the 90's and a slew of cosmic crossovers (mostly Infinity stuff) and events (ie. Warlock on trial) and the Phoenix is nowhere to be seen. Fast-forward even further to 'X-Men: Forever' and it's revealed that the Phoenix Force is the ressurection force, and all cosmic beings (including LT) will be replaced by mutants in the future. Sure, fine...I have no problem. Next we see the 'White-Crown' Phoenix holding Universe 616 in the palm of her hand, and all I have to say is WHOA! When did she/it go from being pretty much nonfactorish to on par with, (or superior to), LT?

But anyway...the best and most coherent explanation I've read describing the Phoenix (and LT's) role in the MU is this:
1. The multiverse is a forest...each tree is a separate universe (Eternity/Infinity).
2. The Phoenix Force is the lifeforce...the sap that flows within these trees.
3. LT is the landscaping man who makes sure that no tree grows substantially taller than another, he also chops down any diseased/decaying trees, so they don't affect any of the others. Or he could be holding a shotgun, to guard from invaders from another forest (ie. Beyonder as he was shown before the retcon).

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Silver Surfer certainly helped him in the later issue of the mini. If you have the comic book at hand you'd know this as well. Why not post that instead of an earlier and therefore irrelevant scan.

I'll POST the whoile comic just to PROVE you wrong, especially now that you repeated your ABSOLUTELY FALSE statement.

Lucifer Morningstar-Second only to god,,created his own universe did a lot of shit

this guy. look at all those monsters hes defeating...and hes saving the girl!

http://www.maranci.net/omac1.jpg

Originally posted by e.l,m,t,i,(r k)
Lucifer Morningstar-Second only to god,,created his own universe did a lot of shit

lucifer is not even in the top 5.

Originally posted by Mr Master
lucifer is not even in the top 5. dude he pwns alll of these guys at once:Molecule Man,Galactus and all heralds,beyonder

Originally posted by e.l,m,t,i,(r k)
dude he pwns alll of these guys at once:Molecule Man,Galactus and all heralds,beyonder Nope

dude check out the thread Lucifer Morningstar vs JLA avengers....
you'll see what i mean

dude he was one half in creating the multiverse with a glance created his own universe proven fact so fu ck off

Originally posted by e.l,m,t,i,(r k)
dude check out the thread Lucifer Morningstar vs JLA avengers....
you'll see what i mean I have both books on Lucifer and Beyonder.

Originally posted by e.l,m,t,i,(r k)
dude he was one half in creating the multiverse with a glance created his own universe proven fact so fu ck off Dude I hope your not talking to me. And read the comic before you post anything. He didn't do it on his own.

Originally posted by Big Sexy
Dude I hope your not talking to me. And read the comic before you post anything. He didn't do it on his own. I SAID ONE HALF

mr hanky can kick all there butts

Originally posted by e.l,m,t,i,(r k)
I SAID ONE HALF http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=399313&highlight=beyonder
Knock yourself out dude.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
How I remember it Silver Surfer in one of the later issues of SW2 helped out Molecule Man in a way other than that which youre describing.

And like I said your WRONG.
And I do have the scans and I will post them now.

Here is Molecule Man ALONE, saving ALL the heroes including poor Silver Sufer and ALL the beings ACROSS the ENTIRE multiverse that were destroyed by the blast.

He first says, If he would of fought the Beyonder till his last breath, "I wouldn't have had the stregth left to shield us..."

He then tells Captain America very CLEARLY, "By the way, I also REMOVED EVERY LIVING THING from his death blast's path...They're ALL in STASIS, in SUB-SPACE! I'LL bring 'em back later, if there is a later.

Stasis - definition from webster's - a period or state of inactivity.
Sub-Space - definition from same - a space that is wholly contained in another space.

Molecule Man is no joke.

Then Captain America asks, "How are such things POSSIBLE..? It's---It's Beyond belief!

Molecule Man responds, "I transact on power levels unimaginable to you, Captain America, and the Beyonder, it seems, on levels unimaginable to Me!"

Originally posted by Mr Master
And like I said your WRONG.
And I do have the scans and I will post them now.

Here is Molecule Man ALONE, saving ALL the heroes including poor Silver Sufer and ALL the beings ACROSS the ENTIRE multiverse that were destroyed by the blast.

He first says, If he would of fought the Beyonder till his last breath, "I wouldn't have had the stregth left to shield us..."

He then tells Captain America very CLEARLY, "By the way, I also REMOVED EVERY LIVING THING from his death blast's path...They're ALL in STASIS, in SUB-SPACE! I'LL bring 'em back later, if there is a later.

Stasis - definition from webster's - a period or state of inactivity.
Sub-Space - definition from same - a space that is wholly contained in another space.

Molecule Man is no joke.

Then Captain America asks, "How are such things POSSIBLE..? It's---It's Beyond belief!

Molecule Man responds, "I transact on power levels unimaginable to you, Captain America, and the Beyonder, it seems, on levels unimaginable to Me!" Mr Master, I have a question. I have most of secret wars two but Im missing the fight with MM. What issue is it.

Originally posted by Big Sexy
Mr Master, I have a question. I have most of secret wars two but Im missing the fight with MM. What issue is it.

It's Issue #9. of the Secret Wars II series.

Originally posted by Mr Master
meh,

According to COMICS Beyonder is the Supreme Power of the Marvel Reality. But like that makes a difference to one as stubborn as you,

Observe:

Who is this Living Embodiment of Suprem Power?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenixs power spawns and sustains the multiverse and the abstracts every creation cycle

Nope. She THOUGHT she was the embodiment of Life, she was wrong, Phoenix is not the WELL SPRING of life in the ALL, she's an EXPRESSION of the universal life-force.

Ofcourse with proof.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All matter and energy from reality originates from the force anyway. Big deal.

But she doesn't maintain or fuel that matter and energy, she only sparks the begining and end of that transitional cycle that is self serving.

As Galactus responded, when Phoenix claimed to be the embodiment of life.
Galactus said, " You are an expression of the universal life-force, NOT a WELL SPRING."

He also said, "In the moment of creation, ALL that will EVER BE, WAS, in Birth and Death there is Transition..and in living, advancement.
But NOTHING NEW is created."

It's an inevitable cycle that is not governed by the Phoeinx Force, but certainly influenced. She turns on the switch and turns it off, just like my uncle turns on the boiler to heat the water up, once it's heated he turns it off and stops the process. Of his own poer he does nothing, like Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What about Phoenix casually amputating a universes future timeline? (NXM 154)

And Beyonder almost amputated the ENTIRE TIMELINE ALL together, of ALL realities not just one. The Time Stream in it's entirety was almost shattered, if it were not for Reed talking Beyonder out of it.

Ofcourse with Proof, not just talk and prolonged monologues.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Don't make it sound impressive? What nerve!

I'm not making it sound, it is what it is and ofcourse I will post the scans.
He erased the MULTIVERSAL Concept of Death, that's one.

And then he RECREATED Death, he didn't "re-introduce" Death you fargin LIAR!
What does that mean anyway, where did you get that from, gs, even for you, that's a bit pathetic.

Here are the scans:

He RECREATES Death from a sentient creature.

Next: Death exists again.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nightcrawler could have achieved that feat with a flick of his prehensile toes.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH
AHAHAHAH


This doesn't even deserve a response, this is like the last draw, when all else fails. You hit rock bottom with this one. Now your bordering stupidity along with fascist idealisms coupled with warping facts and evidence to straight up LIES.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's Issue #9. of the Secret Wars II series. Thanks dude

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
she then proceeded to reach in to reality psionically to alter the reactions of Cyclops thereby causing a new future to grow. (The one youre currently reading about every time you pick up a Marvel comic


Big deal,

So did Beyonder

He complete altered Hulk's future and destiny, causing a new future to grow,(the Hulk your currently reading about every time you pick up a Hulk comic).

Banner was suppose to be lost forever after Hulk #300, when he was teleported out of our reality by Dector Strange, even Srange had no idea where he sent him, since he acted instinctively before Hulk smashed him, but luckily the Beyonder had just been traversing ALL the Multiverse from his suit in a Manhattan hotel, where he found Banner in his final hours at a nexus of realities.

And yes, with PROOF as always:

Originally posted by Mr Master
Big deal,

So did Beyonder

He complete altered Hulk's future and destiny, causing a new future to grow,(the Hulk your currently reading about every time you pick up a Hulk comic).

Banner was suppose to be lost forever after Hulk #300, when he was teleported out of our reality by Dector Strange, even Srange had no idea where he sent him, since he acted instinctively before Hulk smashed him, but luckily the Beyonder had just been traversing ALL the Multiverse from his suit in a Manhattan hotel, where he found Banner in his final hours at a nexus of realities.

And yes, with PROOF as always:

Continues...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And Phoenix projected a tower throughout the multiverse, making it exist simultaneously in every reality therefore connecting them and creating an energy matrix that courses throughout the multiverse. It was with this power that Otherworld was created.

Phoenix creates Otherworld.

Beyonder creates Battleworld.

hawk girl

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As a side note, the Beyonder has never said that he was all reality in the multiverse. Lets not lget carried away now MM.


The Beyonder was NOT all reality. Where has this ridiculous new claim just suddenly come from. Nowhere has it been stated that he was ALL reality.

Except in Marvel comics.

Yes ofcourse the PROOF, THAT I ALWAYS HAVE AND YOU NEVER, LOL.

Here Beyonder is All. He controls ALL reality, his IMAGINATION and REALITY are indistinguishable, everything is what he says it is.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its stated on panel that he was a universe outside the main one in the first issue of SW2.

And in those same issues it's stated that he was the Beyond Realm, which is EVERYTHING outside ALL KNOWN EXISTENCE!

And in those same Marvel comics Reed said Beyonder was the LIVING EMBODIMENT of ABSOLUTE POWER.

I know, I know,

when it concerns you and it caters to your aarguement, it's exceptable, but when it contradicts your sense of the hierarchy in Marvel, it's iether hyperboling, or it doesn't coincide with "on panel" feats, that can only be determined by you. LOL.

Make up your mind already.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And in those same issues it's stated that he was the Beyond Realm, which is EVERYTHING outside ALL KNOWN EXISTENCE!

And in those same Marvel comics Reed said Beyonder was the LIVING EMBODIMENT of ABSOLUTE POWER.

I know, I know,

when it concerns you and it caters to your aarguement, it's exceptable, but when it contradicts your sense of the hierarchy in Marvel, it's iether hyperboling, or it doesn't coincide with "on panel" feats, that can only be determined by you. LOL.

Make up your mind already.

Continues:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Many actions performed by cosmics are described by non cosmics or captions as impossible or incalculable. Big deal. Its just a way of conveying the scale they operate on. Regardless the destruction of a sub atomic pocket dimension is not beyond many a cosmic.

Yea but we now know it is much more than a "sub-atomic pocket dimension"

It's a UNIVERSE, get it right dude, A UNIVERSE! on a magnificent scale, bigger than 616. LOL


Yes with proof, though I posted this already.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Stan Lees comments therefore are irrelevant.

But yours has any relevance.

Are you kidding.

looks like mm got everything on loc

Originally posted by Mr Master


but if the most powerful trully in either universes, then it would be:

Marvel-(in order)
pre-retcon Beyonder
pre-retcon Molecule Man
Thanons(HOTU)
Phoenix Force
Living Tribunal

DC-(not in order)
the Endless
the Imps
Hyperman
Spectre
the Brothers

you hav your list mixed up, right chareters, wrong places ...

marvel
Pre- retcon Beyonder
pre- retcon Molecule Man
Thanos HOTU
Living Tribunal
Eternity
Phonex Force

DC
The Brothers
The Imps
Hyperman
Kismet
The Endless
Specture

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea but we now know it is much more than a "sub-atomic pocket dimension"

It's a UNIVERSE, get it right dude, A UNIVERSE! on a magnificent scale, bigger than 616. LOL


Yes with proof, though I posted this already.

Irrelevant, still not a top feat. Bigger than 616? Wheres that stated?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Cast into doubt by you and you alone homie.

I'm not preaching anything, that's what the Secret Wars II #9 says, in plain text.

You don't like it,

Take it up with Marvel company they distributed the information.

Take it up with Stan Lee who owns Marvel and supported Secret Wars I and II, all the way,

Take it up with Jim Shooter who wrote Secret Wars.

Take it up with the on panel proof.

Here it is:

Beyonder = is millions of times more powerful than ALL the rest of the power in the multiverse combined!

Secret Wars says that and yet the comments were contradicted on panel by Beyonders showings as discussed and highlighted previously. You would be very naive to take all comments stated on panel as fact unless the point theyre making is supported on panel by feats. Galactus for exampl ewas once stated to be the most powerful being in Marvel so by your logic we should ignore all showings which contradict such statements. Get outta here MM lol.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But yours has any relevance.

Are you kidding.

Stan Lees opinion does NOT equate to Marvel canon. Throwing around his name in some misguided attempt to gain credibility for your argument is a futile exercise. Please understand that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Interesting, should I pull your card, nah I'm simply sick of this idiodicy

When it's convenient Phoenix Force exists and when it's not she doesn't.

In our prior debate, "Classic beyonder going bezerk in DC" Phoenix Force was around in 1980, now she's not around.

I'll post up the exact page on that thread in a bit.



What's this?

Oh yea more lies, I don't know why it surprises me.

What he actually said was, word for word, which I will accompany with the on panel proof.

First off she wasn't even combating. She was just standing around when he said that.

"This ENTITY, Rachel's power is extraordinary..She is AKIN(realted)to a young star"



This is why I burn you, cause I have the proof while you LIE!

"This ENTITY, Rachel's power is extraordinary",

the SUBJECT he specifies is the ENTITY, and as a matter of fact he DOES make additional references to Rachel's power.

He goes on to say, "She is AKIN(realted)to a young star"

Entity - definition from websters - a thing with distinct and independent existence.

Didn't know Rachel's power was all her own, swore she got it from the Phoenix, limited or not. LOL!!!



What I tell you, now it's convenient for the Phoenix Force to overlook the Beyond Realm back then, but not when everyone,

Marvel Company

Marvel Owner

Marvel Writers

say Beyonder was the Supreme Being and Molecule Man was Second, LOL.

Fascism continues.

Here's the scan of Beyonder on Rachel, everyone can see you change the phrase to suit your arguement.

The fact remains that when Beyonder made those comments the Phoenix Force as we know it did NOT exist. Jean was Phoenix Rachel was Phoenix. Just mutants with the ability to tap into cosmic energy thats all. Therefore your point is as ever MOOT. The writer conclusively did not mean what youre trying to say hes saying with that in mind.

None of Beyonders comments applied to Phoenix as going by current continuity she wasnt even within reality. By current continuity she surveys and guards all of creation and this would include the Beyond Realm which is just an other-dimensional universe as stated even in pre-retcon days. Tough break kid

Originally posted by Mr Master
Scuse the harshness of my words,
but it pisses me off when you make stuff up to validify your point or opinion.
I accused you of making stuff up, because you did, you should know by now I research these comics obssessively, so why even try to slide in some fantasy as fact, and if it wasn't bad enough that you did it, you did to me, by replying to my post. That's a violation of my knowledge. Siver Surfer DID NOT in ANY WAY help Molecule Man do anything at ANY TIME DURING the SECRET WARS SAGA. I'll bet my KMC reputation on that.


Whatever you say kid:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/16805242063.jpg&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/16805251082.jpg&s=f5

Thats all


-GS

if galactus is 100 percent, galactus would win

To GS's post Wowserz on the scans.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That was in the previous multiverse my friend. That isnt the instance i refer to when i talk of the M'kraan feat. My reference pertains to Uncanny 108

Jean bonded with the team to anchor herself to reality hence the single entity references in MY scans.

She still needed help, for whatever reason.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean still performed the feat under her own power and contained a force that was about to sipe out the multiverse in the blink of an eye. Best feat in Marvel.

Look first off, let's debate in a civil manner, You have comic book knowledge and I've learned from you as much as I think you've learned from me, I don't agree with All your points of view but who does with anyone's. We chuck up our opinions and interpretations and then we'll seal it off with the on panel proof.

That said'

The Ultimate Nullifier has ended and remade the multiverse. In the blink of an eye.

This is a fact, since it is a fact, Phoenix does not have the top feat in Marvel.

How do I know it was a Multiversal Concept he destroyed?
Because earlier in the comic Abraxas kills Reed Richards in EVERY other ALTERNATE reality, thus in order to REPAIR that, he must of involved the entire Multiverse in it's destruction and rebirth.

I'll post that scan last.

Here are the scans:

First Reed Richards using the UN to destroy the Multiversal concept of Eternity.
He did this to Destroy Abraxas and to RECREATE ALL that was back to it's original state.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Here are the scans:

First Reed Richards using the UN to destroy the Multiversal concept of Eternity.
He did this to Destroy Abraxas and to RECREATE ALL that was back to it's original state.

Now here is the Multiversal concept of Eternity being shattered and completely erased.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Now here is the Multiversal concept of Eternity being shattered and completely erased.

And here is the result of what happened.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And here is the result of what happened.

And here you see that Abraxas kills every version of Richards through ALL realities/UNiVERSES.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. That was your interpretation based on a misunderstanding of what was actually stated. If you actually read the comic or better still the arc you'd be just fine mate. In its natural state the force is among other things the energies of creation, the Big Bang. To manifest on the physical plane it takes on a form and a consciousness, it becomes the bird like avatar, which is an expression of itself and a life form. This forms presence in reality results in the absorption of life energy reserved for future generations due to the closed nature of the multiverse.

You already monolgued this before, I read your posts, all of them. There's no need to continue to repeat yourself. I understand perfectly well YOUR take on the Phoenix Force.

Still, she claimed to be the embodiment of life, and Galactus said in plain english, "YOUR NOT". Dance around it all you want, that's what it says clearly.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonders meddling with the timestream could have set off a reaction that could have potentially destroyed the timestream. Lets get that right son. On top of that Beyonder himself had doubts about whether he could such destruction and so he stayed his hand.

Please don't change the wording gs, so far your doing good, this is where you start to get ugly.

"NOT COULD HAVE"

but WILL set of a chain reaction.

NOT "Could Have POTENTIALLY Destroyed the Timestream"

but WILL SHATTER the Timestream and ALL before it.

Let's get THAT, right son.

And I don't see him having any doubts about anything,

He clearly says "yet PERHAPS what you say is true REED, without Time, there cannot be an always.
Even measured against infinity, one moment must always preceed the next"

Sounds to me like logic, instead of doubt.

Here's the scan:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix exists beyond space time shes above such concepts and as the power that spawns reality she creates them.

So is Beyonder

the scans:

Originally posted by Mr Master
So is Beyonder

the scans:

More proof Beyonder is Beyond Space and Time:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre making it sound as if he made the Death abstract out of thin air. He had previously abolished Death from reality, he made everything immortal. He re-introduced Death by killing a human, no more no less. He just killed a human and therefore re-introduced the concept into reality resulting in the re-creation of the abstract Death who embodies that concept.

Really? That's your take on it.

I'm making it sound?

Let me understand this from your point of view.

Beyonder uses a monumental amount of power to erase the MULTIVERSAL Concept of Death.

But in order to "re-introduce"(your words)Death, all he had to do was kill some human and automatically Death would reappear, with out any effort on his part except to simply kill some human.

You say he made everything IMMORTAL yet somehow he's able to kill some human in order to "re-introduce" Death.

I suppose this didn't take any effort either, defying the Multiversal Laws of ALL Reality by killing someone when there is no Death.

Good try but NO.

Talk about downplaying a characters feats in order to win a debate.

Wow gs, simply wow.

The fact in Marvel Comics's Secreat Wars II series is that Beyonder DID erase the MULITIVERSAL Concept of Death, as the scan will clearly show, again.

And Beyonder did infact RE-CREATE Death,

the only part of your illusion that's fact, is that he did have to kill someone, NOT to "RE-INTRODUCE" Death,

but infact to take Death's place which Beyonder RE-CREATED in him.

This is why it took Beyonder more than a moment to RE-CREATE Death, cause it wasn't AT ALL as simple as YOU make it sound.


But here is the scan of course:

Originally posted by Mr Master
Really? That's your take on it.

I'm making it sound?

Let me understand this from your point of view.

Beyonder uses a monumental amount of power to erase the MULTIVERSAL Concept of Death.

But in order to "re-introduce"(your words)Death, all he had to do was kill some human and automatically Death would reappear, with out any effort on his part except to simply kill some human.

You say he made everything IMMORTAL yet somehow he's able to kill some human in order to "re-introduce" Death.

I suppose this didn't take any effort either, defying the Multiversal Laws of ALL Reality by killing someone when there is no Death.

Good try but NO.

Talk about downplaying a characters feats in order to win a debate.

Wow gs, simply wow.

The fact in Marvel Comics's Secreat Wars II series is that Beyonder DID erase the MULITIVERSAL Concept of Death, as the scan will clearly show, again.

And Beyonder did infact RE-CREATE Death,

the only part of your illusion that's fact, is that he did have to kill someone, NOT to "RE-INTRODUCE" Death,

but infact to take Death's place which Beyonder RE-CREATED in him.

This is why it took Beyonder more than a moment to RE-CREATE Death, cause it wasn't AT ALL as simple as YOU make it sound.


But here is the scan of course:

Do you know what "ANEW" means?

After Beyonder RE-CREATES the Multiversal Concept of Death,

when Beyonder say's , "and now, it begins ANEW"

Let's look that up shall we,

and disprove what you fantasized in about Beyonder "simply re-introducing Death"

From websters:

ANEW - in a new or different, typically more positive, way.

Well so much for re-introductions, this is obviously a RE-CREATION of something that was into something NEW and DIFFERENT just like the ON PANEL prrof shows.

I am the most powerful!

This guy.

http://binarioloco.interfree.it/img/Wolverine.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im not contorting the facts at all. The fact remains that Death is a universal abstract that has counterparts in the other realities of the multiverse. One statement to the contrary doesnt suddenly erase continuity my friend. Thats something youre just gonna have to accept im afraid.

Regardless wiping out Death as impressive as that is, still doesnt cut it. Listing second rate feats will get you nowhere when youre trying to argue that he was the top being.

Your gonna have to except what Marvel Company says.
Your gonna have to except what Stan Lee says.
Your gonna have to except what Marvel writers say.
And most importantly,
your gonna have to except the ON PANEL PROOF!

There is a Multiversal Abstract that embodies the concept of Death on a Multiversal Scale. period.

I think I'll take the comics word over yours on this one friend.

Your trying desperately to demean that feat, Killing the Multiversal Concept of Death, yet now it's second rate because you realize you can't tap dance your way around the FACT that it WAS the MULTIVERSAL ABSTRACT that embodies the Concept of Death across the ENTIRE Multiverse.

The Proof:

Looks like Mr Master has this one on lock at this point.
Great job!!

Originally posted by Mr Master
Beyonder does ALL these things time and time again.

As a matter of FACT, Beyonder one time was thinking to much on a subject that was bothering him, as a SIDE-EFFECT,

SUNS Imploded, WORLDS Collided, Parallel DIMENSIONS Collapsed upon themselves.

And yet this was only the Beginning.

Sorry forgot the scan, here it is:

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Looks like Mr Master has this one on lock at this point.
Great job!!

Thank AV,

but I ain't through just yet.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Phoenix has always been an interesting cosmic entity...when it/she was first revealed, The Watcher, (I believe), said the Phoenix Force was second only to God. Hyperbole, for sure, that should be ignored...since Galactus was once referred to, (by the same Watcher), as the most powerful being in the universe. Fast-forward to the 90's and a slew of cosmic crossovers (mostly Infinity stuff) and events (ie. Warlock on trial) and the Phoenix is nowhere to be seen. Fast-forward even further to 'X-Men: Forever' and it's revealed that the Phoenix Force is the ressurection force, and all cosmic beings (including LT) will be replaced by mutants in the future. Sure, fine...I have no problem. Next we see the 'White-Crown' Phoenix holding Universe 616 in the palm of her hand, and all I have to say is WHOA! When did she/it go from being pretty much nonfactorish to on par with, (or superior to), LT?

But anyway...the best and most coherent explanation I've read describing the Phoenix (and LT's) role in the MU is this:
1. The multiverse is a forest...each tree is a separate universe (Eternity/Infinity).
2. The Phoenix Force is the lifeforce...the sap that flows within these trees.
3. LT is the landscaping man who makes sure that no tree grows substantially taller than another, he also chops down any diseased/decaying trees, so they don't affect any of the others. Or he could be holding a shotgun, to guard from invaders from another forest (ie. Beyonder as he was shown before the retcon). Hmm...these words look familiar.

I've seen them before.

In fact, I think I've TYPED them before over at CBR.

It's okay...I'm flattered.