Iceman's Freezing vs . . .

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



leonidas
all right. i've actually argued against bobby in the last couple iceman threads, but the evolution of his powers have raised some interesting questions in my mind. we've seen him freeze the stranger, but, more incomprhensibly, we've even seen him freeze the stranger's eyebeams! now that raised a couple issues in my mind and made me wonder . . .

if he could freeze the eyebeams, could he freeze:

1. cyke's optic blast?
2. magneto's 'invincible force field'?
3. juggernaut's force field? (if he could freeze the force fields someone else, or maybe bobby, could then crack them and break them)
4. a godforce blast?
5. anything else you could think of??

some may say this is a silly thread. IT IS NOT A SPITE THREAD! i am genuinely curious about just HOW he managed to freeze the stranger's eyebeams and if this display can be extended, even in theory, to include other, even more exotic forms of energy.

science guys have at it!

(oh, and a minor tip'o the cap to draco who's ray v iceman thread brought the question to the front of my brain . . . wink )

He-guy88
Originally posted by leonidas
all right. i've actually argued against bobby in the last couple iceman threads, but the evolution of his powers have raised some interesting questions in my mind. we've seen him freeze the stranger, but, more incomprhensibly, we've even seen him freeze the stranger's eyebeams! now that raised a couple issues in my mind and made me wonder . . .

if he could freeze the eyebeams, could he freeze:

1. cyke's optic blast?
2. magneto's 'invincible force field'?
3. juggernaut's force field? (if he could freeze the force fields someone else, or maybe bobby, could then crack them and break them)
4. a godforce blast?
5. anything else you could think of??

some may say this is a silly thread. IT IS NOT A SPITE THREAD! i am genuinely curious about just HOW he managed to freeze the stranger's eyebeams and if this display can be extended, even in theory, to include other, even more exotic forms of energy.

science guys have at it!

(oh, and a minor tip'o the cap to draco who's ray v iceman thread brought the question to the front of my brain . . . wink )

he loeses to juggs

Validus
Aren't Stranger's eye beams just heat blasts?

leonidas
it's not a gauntlet . . .

Darth Martin
1.Yes
2.I don't understand what u mean by freezing a force feild.
3.I don't understand what u mean by freezing a force feild.
4.Yes

TheKahn
Originally posted by leonidas
all right. i've actually argued against bobby in the last couple iceman threads, but the evolution of his powers have raised some interesting questions in my mind. we've seen him freeze the stranger, but, more incomprhensibly, we've even seen him freeze the stranger's eyebeams! now that raised a couple issues in my mind and made me wonder . . .

if he could freeze the eyebeams, could he freeze:

1. cyke's optic blast?
2. magneto's 'invincible force field'?
3. juggernaut's force field? (if he could freeze the force fields someone else, or maybe bobby, could then crack them and break them)
4. a godforce blast?
5. anything else you could think of??

some may say this is a silly thread. IT IS NOT A SPITE THREAD! i am genuinely curious about just HOW he managed to freeze the stranger's eyebeams and if this display can be extended, even in theory, to include other, even more exotic forms of energy.

science guys have at it!

(oh, and a minor tip'o the cap to draco who's ray v iceman thread brought the question to the front of my brain . . . wink )

Well.... energy is subject to the law of conservation of energy. Thus, energy cannot be made or destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another, that is, transformed. In practice, during any energy transformation in (macroscopic) system, some energy is converted into incoherent microscopic motion of parts of the system (which is usually called heat or thermal motion), and the entropy of the system increases. Perhaps Iceman's powers, aside from being able to reduce the kinetic motion of particles, include an innate ability to increase the amount of energy in a closed system that is normally converted to heat thus granting himself greater control of it.

Looking at the feat of Iceman freezing the Stranger's eye-beams, a possible explanation is that Iceman simply initiated a near-total conversion of the electromagnetic energy (I'm assuming that was the type of energy released) in the blast to kinetic energy of the surrounding particles. Quickly, he then preceded to remove the newly introduced kinetic energy and thus "froze" the beam.

He-guy88
Originally posted by Validus
Aren't Stranger's eye beams just heat blasts?

im not sure

TheKahn
As far as the specific examples listed:

1. Yes for a short blast, but for a sustained one I'd image that Bobby would have to remain focused on the task at hand and keep "freezing" the new energy that is constantly being introduced
2. Yes
3. Not sure due to it's mystical nature
4. Again given the fact that magic is involved and the shear amount of energy we are talking about, I'm tempted to say no here.

He-guy88
Originally posted by TheKahn
As far as the specific examples listed:

1. Yes for a short blast, but for a sustained one I'd image that Bobby would have to remain focused on the task at hand and keep "freezing" the new energy that is constantly being introduced
2. Yes
3. Not sure due to it's mystical nature
4. Again given the fact that magic is involved and the shear amount of energy we are talking about, I'm tempted to say no here.

to three it would have to be no or he would not be unstopable

TheKahn
Originally posted by He-guy88
to three it would have to be no or he would not be unstopable

Juggernaut's force field isn't what makes him unstoppable... confused

He-guy88
Originally posted by TheKahn
Juggernaut's force field isn't what makes him unstoppable... confused

ur right but still bobbys powers wont penatrait it

batdude123
Originally posted by TheKahn
Well.... energy is subject to the law of conservation of energy. Thus, energy cannot be made or destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another, that is, transformed. In practice, during any energy transformation in (macroscopic) system, some energy is converted into incoherent microscopic motion of parts of the system (which is usually called heat or thermal motion), and the entropy of the system increases. Perhaps Iceman's powers, aside from being able to reduce the kinetic motion of particles, include an innate ability to increase the amount of energy in a closed system that is normally converted to heat thus granting himself greater control of it.

Looking at the feat of Iceman freezing the Stranger's eye-beams, a possible explanation is that Iceman simply initiated a near-total conversion of the electromagnetic energy (I'm assuming that was the type of energy released) in the blast to kinetic energy of the surrounding particles. Quickly, he then preceded to remove the newly introduced kinetic energy and thus "froze" the beam.

Stripping the energy source of its kinetic energy thus freezing the heat beam. Heat can't exist if the kinetic energy particles are completely stopped or taken out. Nice Kahn! Very creative thinking.

The Fake Macoy
You can't freeze energy, since freezing involves a change of state for matter. Since this is a comic book though, that means that he could freeze anything, I suppose.

He-guy88
Originally posted by The Fake Macoy
You can't freeze energy, since freezing involves a change of state for matter. Since this is a comic book though, that means that he could freeze anything, I suppose.

well energy cant be destroyede but it can be changed so i gess in the comics that counts to wink

Grimm22
Iceman can't freeze

-Thing's Spirit

-Cap's Courage

-Thor's Jibberish

-Wolverine's Apparent ability to throw Dumpsters with ease stick out tongue

rougeredmage
i am pretty sure it is universually recognised that he losses to jugs

i m pretty sure that iceman has enough ability to contain magneto surrounding his forcefield i layers of ice. which means that he will not be able to move.

after all supposedly iceman is an omega level mutant

i think that it will take 2 to 3 of thors hammers wacks to break down one of icemans walls.

i seem to remember in there intital encouter that iceman was unable to properly defend himself against sunfire.. however latter in the arc that introduced colossus brother they seem to be more evently matched.

iceman is able to shatter and reform himself from pieces.. as long as he reamins in his frozen form.

what would be interesting is to see how icemans icewall goes up against Banshees (RIP) sonic screams. or avalance/ rictors sesemic abilitys

batdude123
Originally posted by The Fake Macoy
You can't freeze energy, since freezing involves a change of state for matter. Since this is a comic book though, that means that he could freeze anything, I suppose.

I should have put "freeze" in quotation marks just like I did right there. I didn't mean he could actually "freeze" the energy, I ment that he possess the power to stop the kinetic energy in those blasts, thus stopping the heat and "freazing" it.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by TheKahn
Well.... energy is subject to the law of conservation of energy. Thus, energy cannot be made or destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another, that is, transformed. In practice, during any energy transformation in (macroscopic) system, some energy is converted into incoherent microscopic motion of parts of the system (which is usually called heat or thermal motion), and the entropy of the system increases. Perhaps Iceman's powers, aside from being able to reduce the kinetic motion of particles, include an innate ability to increase the amount of energy in a closed system that is normally converted to heat thus granting himself greater control of it.

Looking at the feat of Iceman freezing the Stranger's eye-beams, a possible explanation is that Iceman simply initiated a near-total conversion of the electromagnetic energy (I'm assuming that was the type of energy released) in the blast to kinetic energy of the surrounding particles. Quickly, he then preceded to remove the newly introduced kinetic energy and thus "froze" the beam.

Excellent. Dude, I'm impressed more by you every day.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Excellent. Dude, I'm impressed more by you every day.

Thanks. I wrote that instead of studying for my Judicial Processes midterm sad wink

newjak86
Technically there is no such things as "Freezing" or cold there is only the absence of heat and what is heat the moving around moecules. Which means Iceman's power is the ability to slow molecules down. Which is most notable in the water vapor since it has the lowest conversion point in changing states of matter compared to the other elements surrounding him.
Energy as we know is the simple motion of atoms and particles exhanging energy. This is why lighting looks the way it does in a zig zag pattern. You see when lighting is moving from the ground up the energy or exchanging electrons will take the path of least resistance in the moecules in the air.
Now this brings me to what the Strangers eye beams. They would be the moving of energy through the the molecules in the air. What Iceman did was slow the Molecules down to a halt and stopped the path the enrgy was taking once the energy dispersed from the moelcules outward all that was left was the normal water vapor in the air. Thus it would "freeze" where Iceman was focusing his power.

As for Scotts Beams he could except that Scott could just keep pouring enrgy into it hoping to make the molecules going again.

Magneto shield would simply be Magento Focusing and binding the Atoms around him binding them really tightly. Thus Bobbies ability to stop molecules would have no effect on the shield itself and the area inside but he could effect the water vapor around it.

I would say no to the Godforce Blast as it is magical in anture and thus sre not bound by the laws of science plus there is probably to much energy being moved for Booby to effect it.

batdude123
Originally posted by newjak86
Technically there is no such things as "Freezing" or cold there is only the absence of heat and what is heat the moving around moecules. Which means Iceman's power is the ability to slow molecules down. Which is most notable in the water vapor since it has the lowest conversion point in changing states of matter compared to the other elements surrounding him.
Energy as we know is the simple motion of atoms and particles exhanging energy. This is why lighting looks the way it does in a zig zag pattern. You see when lighting is moving from the ground up the energy or exchanging electrons will take the path of least resistance in the moecules in the air.
Now this brings me to what the Strangers eye beams. They would be the moving of energy through the the molecules in the air. What Iceman did was slow the Molecules down to a halt and stopped the path the enrgy was taking once the energy dispersed from the moelcules outward all that was left was the normal water vapor in the air. Thus it would "freeze" where Iceman was focusing his power.

As for Scotts Beams he could except that Scott could just keep pouring enrgy into it hoping to make the molecules going again.

Magneto shield would simply be Magento Focusing and binding the Atoms around him binding them really tightly. Thus Bobbies ability to stop molecules would have no effect on the shield itself and the area inside but he could effect the water vapor around it.

I would say no to the Godforce Blast as it is magical in anture and thus sre not bound by the laws of science plus there is probably to much energy being moved for Booby to effect it.

That's exactly what I was sayin or at least, trying to say. He wouldn't "freeze" it, he would slow down the kinetic energy particles to a halt. yes

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by newjak86
Technically there is no such things as "Freezing" or cold there is only the absence of heat and what is heat the moving around moecules. Which means Iceman's power is the ability to slow molecules down. Which is most notable in the water vapor since it has the lowest conversion point in changing states of matter compared to the other elements surrounding him.
Energy as we know is the simple motion of atoms and particles exhanging energy. This is why lighting looks the way it does in a zig zag pattern. You see when lighting is moving from the ground up the energy or exchanging electrons will take the path of least resistance in the moecules in the air.
Now this brings me to what the Strangers eye beams. They would be the moving of energy through the the molecules in the air. What Iceman did was slow the Molecules down to a halt and stopped the path the enrgy was taking once the energy dispersed from the moelcules outward all that was left was the normal water vapor in the air. Thus it would "freeze" where Iceman was focusing his power.

As for Scotts Beams he could except that Scott could just keep pouring enrgy into it hoping to make the molecules going again.

Magneto shield would simply be Magento Focusing and binding the Atoms around him binding them really tightly. Thus Bobbies ability to stop molecules would have no effect on the shield itself and the area inside but he could effect the water vapor around it.

I would say no to the Godforce Blast as it is magical in anture and thus sre not bound by the laws of science plus there is probably to much energy being moved for Booby to effect it.

This is a very comprehensive explaination. Iceman's power is basically removing thermal energy, not "projecting cold."

Blair Wind
here is the best explaination I could come up with:

Bobby Drake could be, potentially, one of the most powerful mutants on the planet. Look at his power. People say "Ooh! He makes ice." Or now, "Ooh, he turns himself into ice!"

But let's step back. Basic physics says that there's no such thing as "cold", as a quantative energy form. Only degrees of heat. "Cold" is a relative term, requiring a difference between the observed target and the temperature of the observer. Example: I'm standing in my office, at a nice 73 degrees. The cabbie outside is standing on the street, shivering in 40 degrees. To me, he is cold. Whereas if I were buried in snow (great shades of this past weekend) at around 20 degrees, I'd consider him pretty warm.

Right then, we've established that there's no such energy form as "cold". So, Bobby doesn't generate cold to form his ice, and he doesn't generate the moisture himself (imagine how quickly he'd be dehydrated). Therefore, he forms his ice structures from the ambient moisture in the environment around him. To do this, he causes the moisture to freeze.

But how? We know he doesn't "project cold", so then he must absorb or dissipate the heat. By the laws of thermodynamics, energy is constant, it cannot be created or destroyed. However, let's go to another scientific principle. Heat is a measurement of the internal kinetic energy of an object. The more those atoms and molecules are buzzing around, the hotter it is.

What Bobby Drake does, as I see it, is project a field that inhibits the motion of those particles (herein referred to as Brownian Motion) thus dropping the temperature and freezing the moisture.

However, the amount of water vapor in any given area is not consistent with the large stunts Bobby regularly pulls off (re: ice slides, ice walls, etc). If he were to coalesce that much water vapor in one place and freeze it, the humidity all along the Eastern Seaboard would drop dramatically, we'd have wildcat lightning storms all over the place, cats and dogs living together, it would be anarchy, you see my point.

So that extra frozen mass has to come from somewhere. Remember that water vapor isn't the only thing in the air. You have a mixture of all sorts of gases. One of the most prominent of these is carbon dioxide. Compared to the other prominent gases in our atmosphere (nitrogen, the most common, and oxygen), carbon dioxide has a relatively high temperature (although still incredibly low) at which it becomes solid. It is my theory that the most part of Bobby's ice structures are composed of frozen carbon dioxide, or "dry ice". This would also explain why Manhattan isn't flooded every time his ice slides melt, since most of it sublimes back into gaseous carbon dioxide.

So, what Bobby does is inhibit the Brownian Motion of objects. He can do this so quickly that there is no expansion of the target's water content, as was seen when he flash-froze Legion completely. Had he merely frozen all the moisture in Legion's body, well... put an unopened can of soda in the freezer sometime. Wait a few days. Watch the results. Legion would be a messy red chunk when he thawed.

Bobby is an incredibly powerful cryokinetic. But that's not the only extent to his powers. Since Mikhail's fiddling, he can transform his entire body into a water-based organism. In his form of homogenous ice, his thought processes go on, even though water is a MUCH less efficient conductor than neurons in the human brain. Basically, Bobby converts all the molecules of his body into water, and freezes and molds it as he moves. He has the capability to assume a completely liquid form (as Emma Frost did when in control of his body) as well as the potential ability to 'teleport' by zapping his consciousness through water vapor in the atmosphere, reforming at his desired location. In AOA, this was referred to as "moisture inversion". And through all this, he retains the ability to resume human form.

Let me get to why I think he's an Omega-class. Ever see that Star Trek:TNG episode where the alien evolved into a sentient life form? The premise was that eventually, all organic beings would 'evolve' into a more efficient sentient energy-based lifeform. We've seen some mutants that already do this.




Chamber

Malice

Shard

Onslaught


As well as some non-mutants, like the Living Laser, Living Lightning, etc. Bobby falls into this class of 'evolved' beings whose consciousness resides in an energy-based state. He just hasn't realized it yet. Canonically, we've heard it referred to multiple times that Bobby hasn't realized his full potential. Imagine what he could do with realization and training.

Create a 'giant' ice form with corresponding strength and stability.
Create and animate multiple ice forms.
Coalesce all the water vapor in an area into a superdense solid, dropping the humidity rapidly, resulting in chaotic weather effects, mass electrical storms, etc.
Acting as a catalyst for superconducting machinery (we've already seen him do this).

newjak86
Originally posted by Blair Wind
here is the best explaination I could come up with:

Bobby Drake could be, potentially, one of the most powerful mutants on the planet. Look at his power. People say "Ooh! He makes ice." Or now, "Ooh, he turns himself into ice!"

But let's step back. Basic physics says that there's no such thing as "cold", as a quantative energy form. Only degrees of heat. "Cold" is a relative term, requiring a difference between the observed target and the temperature of the observer. Example: I'm standing in my office, at a nice 73 degrees. The cabbie outside is standing on the street, shivering in 40 degrees. To me, he is cold. Whereas if I were buried in snow (great shades of this past weekend) at around 20 degrees, I'd consider him pretty warm.

Right then, we've established that there's no such energy form as "cold". So, Bobby doesn't generate cold to form his ice, and he doesn't generate the moisture himself (imagine how quickly he'd be dehydrated). Therefore, he forms his ice structures from the ambient moisture in the environment around him. To do this, he causes the moisture to freeze.

But how? We know he doesn't "project cold", so then he must absorb or dissipate the heat. By the laws of thermodynamics, energy is constant, it cannot be created or destroyed. However, let's go to another scientific principle. Heat is a measurement of the internal kinetic energy of an object. The more those atoms and molecules are buzzing around, the hotter it is.

What Bobby Drake does, as I see it, is project a field that inhibits the motion of those particles (herein referred to as Brownian Motion) thus dropping the temperature and freezing the moisture.

However, the amount of water vapor in any given area is not consistent with the large stunts Bobby regularly pulls off (re: ice slides, ice walls, etc). If he were to coalesce that much water vapor in one place and freeze it, the humidity all along the Eastern Seaboard would drop dramatically, we'd have wildcat lightning storms all over the place, cats and dogs living together, it would be anarchy, you see my point.

So that extra frozen mass has to come from somewhere. Remember that water vapor isn't the only thing in the air. You have a mixture of all sorts of gases. One of the most prominent of these is carbon dioxide. Compared to the other prominent gases in our atmosphere (nitrogen, the most common, and oxygen), carbon dioxide has a relatively high temperature (although still incredibly low) at which it becomes solid. It is my theory that the most part of Bobby's ice structures are composed of frozen carbon dioxide, or "dry ice". This would also explain why Manhattan isn't flooded every time his ice slides melt, since most of it sublimes back into gaseous carbon dioxide.

So, what Bobby does is inhibit the Brownian Motion of objects. He can do this so quickly that there is no expansion of the target's water content, as was seen when he flash-froze Legion completely. Had he merely frozen all the moisture in Legion's body, well... put an unopened can of soda in the freezer sometime. Wait a few days. Watch the results. Legion would be a messy red chunk when he thawed.

Bobby is an incredibly powerful cryokinetic. But that's not the only extent to his powers. Since Mikhail's fiddling, he can transform his entire body into a water-based organism. In his form of homogenous ice, his thought processes go on, even though water is a MUCH less efficient conductor than neurons in the human brain. Basically, Bobby converts all the molecules of his body into water, and freezes and molds it as he moves. He has the capability to assume a completely liquid form (as Emma Frost did when in control of his body) as well as the potential ability to 'teleport' by zapping his consciousness through water vapor in the atmosphere, reforming at his desired location. In AOA, this was referred to as "moisture inversion". And through all this, he retains the ability to resume human form.

Let me get to why I think he's an Omega-class. Ever see that Star Trek:TNG episode where the alien evolved into a sentient life form? The premise was that eventually, all organic beings would 'evolve' into a more efficient sentient energy-based lifeform. We've seen some mutants that already do this.




Chamber

Malice

Shard

Onslaught


As well as some non-mutants, like the Living Laser, Living Lightning, etc. Bobby falls into this class of 'evolved' beings whose consciousness resides in an energy-based state. He just hasn't realized it yet. Canonically, we've heard it referred to multiple times that Bobby hasn't realized his full potential. Imagine what he could do with realization and training.

Create a 'giant' ice form with corresponding strength and stability.
Create and animate multiple ice forms.
Coalesce all the water vapor in an area into a superdense solid, dropping the humidity rapidly, resulting in chaotic weather effects, mass electrical storms, etc.
Acting as a catalyst for superconducting machinery (we've already seen him do this). Very well explained it seems we both have some to the same conclusion.

Cosmic Cube
Blair's is better though.

Cosmic Cube
shifty

newjak86
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Blair's is better though. But which do you understand better wink

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by newjak86
But which do you understand better wink

I like mine. It's short, and to the point.

newjak86
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I like mine. It's short, and to the point. Good point.

Cosmic Cube
laughing Thanks.

newjak86
No problem

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by batdude123
That's exactly what I was sayin or at least, trying to say. He wouldn't "freeze" it, he would slow down the kinetic energy particles to a halt. yes

That is "freezing." Freezing is taking so much kinetic energy from a substances molecules that it loses fluidity.

batdude123
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
That is "freezing." Freezing is taking so much kinetic energy from a substances molecules that it loses fluidity.

There is no such thing as freezing. There is only absence of heat molecules and Iceman slows the kinetic energy down to a halt. He really has the power to either remove the kinetic energy by brining in a different energy source, or completely halt them.

leonidas
Originally posted by newjak86
Technically there is no such things as "Freezing" or cold there is only the absence of heat and what is heat the moving around moecules. Which means Iceman's power is the ability to slow molecules down. Which is most notable in the water vapor since it has the lowest conversion point in changing states of matter compared to the other elements surrounding him.
Energy as we know is the simple motion of atoms and particles exhanging energy. This is why lighting looks the way it does in a zig zag pattern. You see when lighting is moving from the ground up the energy or exchanging electrons will take the path of least resistance in the moecules in the air.
Now this brings me to what the Strangers eye beams. They would be the moving of energy through the the molecules in the air. What Iceman did was slow the Molecules down to a halt and stopped the path the enrgy was taking once the energy dispersed from the moelcules outward all that was left was the normal water vapor in the air. Thus it would "freeze" where Iceman was focusing his power.

As for Scotts Beams he could except that Scott could just keep pouring enrgy into it hoping to make the molecules going again.

Magneto shield would simply be Magento Focusing and binding the Atoms around him binding them really tightly. Thus Bobbies ability to stop molecules would have no effect on the shield itself and the area inside but he could effect the water vapor around it.

I would say no to the Godforce Blast as it is magical in anture and thus sre not bound by the laws of science plus there is probably to much energy being moved for Booby to effect it.

that's essentially what i said in a diffrent thread -- he affected the medium of transfer and affected the beam as a result.

your idea about scott being able to add more and more energy makes no sense though -- stranger could have done (and presumably tried) to do the same thing and the ice literally froze his eyes.

as for mag's shield -- he would indeed tightly bind the air around him, but the particles would still be in motion, though the motion would be restricted. if he can stop the stranger's beams, i see no reason why he couldn't technically freeze the shield such that someone else could break through it like glass.

jugg's shield and godblast is complicated by magic so that makes it harder to figure.

Mindship
Originally posted by TheKahn
Well.... energy is subject to the law of conservation of energy. Thus, energy cannot be made or destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another, that is, transformed. In practice, during any energy transformation in (macroscopic) system, some energy is converted into incoherent microscopic motion of parts of the system (which is usually called heat or thermal motion), and the entropy of the system increases. Perhaps Iceman's powers, aside from being able to reduce the kinetic motion of particles, include an innate ability to increase the amount of energy in a closed system that is normally converted to heat thus granting himself greater control of it.

Looking at the feat of Iceman freezing the Stranger's eye-beams, a possible explanation is that Iceman simply initiated a near-total conversion of the electromagnetic energy (I'm assuming that was the type of energy released) in the blast to kinetic energy of the surrounding particles. Quickly, he then preceded to remove the newly introduced kinetic energy and thus "froze" the beam.

Nicely done, but IMO there's no need to add "energy conversion" to Iceman's powers (which, I think, strays from the "spirit" of his powers, anyway).

The (electromagnetic) energy released by the Stranger, in and of itself, increased the kinetic energy of the surrounding particles (which then Bobby removed). This sort of thing happens all the time in the real world. I mean, isn't this why, for example, stuff gets hot sitting in the sun?

TheKahn
Originally posted by Mindship
Nicely done, but IMO there's no need to add "energy conversion" to Iceman's powers (which, I think, strays from the "spirit" of his powers, anyway).

The (electromagnetic) energy released by the Stranger, in and of itself, increased the kinetic energy of the surrounding particles (which then Bobby removed). This sort of thing happens all the time in the real world. I mean, isn't this why, for example, stuff gets hot sitting in the sun?

Good points as always Mindship, and I admit that the energy conversion theory is a bit of a stretch. But I think that it or something like it is need to fully explain Iceman's feat. Now, your rights, as some of the energy released by the Stranger would be used up in increasing the kinetic energy of the surrounding particles, but not all (or even a majority) of it I'd bet. So how does Iceman freeze the entire beam? That is where the energy conversion comes in. If he was able to somehow force a higher and near complete transfer of the EM energy into kinetic energy of the surrounding particles then I could see him being able to "freeze" the beam of energy.

Perhaps there is another method that could be used that is more in-line with his traditional powerset. For example you could say that what Iceman actually does is create a mass of Bose-Einstein condensates in the path of the laser. Since at such cold temperature the mass would behave more like waves than matters, then an explanation could be proposed that they cause destructive interference with the EM energy beam and thus canceled it out. The "frozen" appearance of the beam could be attributed as only a side effect of the incredibly could temperature that Iceman would need to generate in order to form the BECs (we are talking a few billionths of a degree above absolute zero) freezing the surrounding water vapor.

leonidas
Originally posted by TheKahn
Good points as always Mindship, and I admit that the energy conversion theory is a bit of a stretch. But I think that it or something like it is need to fully explain Iceman's feat. Now, your rights, as some of the energy released by the Stranger would be used up in increasing the kinetic energy of the surrounding particles, but not all (or even a majority) of it I'd bet. So how does Iceman freeze the entire beam? That is where the energy conversion comes in. If he was able to somehow force a higher and near complete transfer of the EM energy into kinetic energy of the surrounding particles then I could see him being able to "freeze" the beam of energy.

Perhaps there is another method that could be used that is more in-line with his traditional powerset. For example you could say that what Iceman actually does is create a mass of Bose-Einstein condensates in the path of the laser. Since at such cold temperature the mass would behave more like waves than matters, then an explanation could be proposed that they cause destructive interference with the EM energy beam and thus canceled it out. The "frozen" appearance of the beam could be attributed as only a side effect of the incredibly could temperature that Iceman would need to generate in order to form the BECs (we are talking a few billionths of a degree above absolute zero) freezing the surrounding water vapor.

but at its roots, EM energy IS kinetic energy. kinetic energy (in the form of atomic motion) is the root of all energy. without motion, no transfer could take place.

TheKahn
Originally posted by leonidas
but at its roots, EM energy IS kinetic energy. kinetic energy (in the form of atomic motion) is the root of all energy. without motion, no transfer could take place.

I think it depends on who you define it. One definition of EM energy is that it is a self propagating transverse oscillating wave of electric and magnetic fields. Now while these waves do have kinetic energy, they lack what seems to be a prerequisite for Iceman to be able to manipulate their kinetic energy: mass. Iceman's abilities have always seemed to be focused on slowing the kinetic energy of actual particles so I'm not sure if he would be able to do likewise to EM energy given its wave/particle nature. Certainly, one interpretation of the Stranger feat is that Iceman can do just that and, while I can't completely rule that possibility out, I'm not sure another explanation wouldn't be more probable. I mean if Iceman can now manipulate the properties of energy then that would seem to carry his powerset in a completely new direction.

leonidas
Originally posted by TheKahn
I think it depends on who you define it. One definition of EM energy is that it is a self propagating transverse oscillating wave of electric and magnetic fields. Now while these waves do have kinetic energy, they lack what seems to be a prerequisite for Iceman to be able to manipulate their kinetic energy: mass. Iceman's abilities have always seemed to be focused on slowing the kinetic energy of actual particles so I'm not sure if he would be able to do likewise to EM energy given its wave/particle nature. Certainly, one interpretation of the Stranger feat is that Iceman can do just that and, while I can't completely rule that possibility out, I'm not sure another explanation wouldn't be more probable. I mean if Iceman can now manipulate the properties of energy then that would seem to carry his powerset in a completely new direction.

agreed, which is why i was trying to say that perhaps it is the medium rather than the wave itself that he is affecting. if the medium were in essence frozen, it would prevent the propagation of any wave. viewing energy as a series of moving particles (electrons, gravitons, photons, etc . . .) would make it easier to explain. bobby copuld simply remove the kinetic energy from the particles. veiwing energy as a wave function complicates things considerably and since (as you've said) waves have no mass, the medium would need to be affected. like to stop waves in a bathtub he freezes the water.

Mindship
Originally posted by TheKahn
Perhaps there is another method that could be used that is more in-line with his traditional powerset. For example you could say that what Iceman actually does is create a mass of Bose-Einstein condensates in the path of the laser. Since at such cold temperature the mass would behave more like waves than matters, then an explanation could be proposed that they cause destructive interference with the EM energy beam and thus canceled it out. The "frozen" appearance of the beam could be attributed as only a side effect of the incredibly could temperature that Iceman would need to generate in order to form the BECs (we are talking a few billionths of a degree above absolute zero) freezing the surrounding water vapor.

This I can live with. thumbsup Now, if we can only find a way to explain Superman's freezing breath, which I've always felt was a simple--and grossly inaccurate--exaggeration of (eg) people blowing on soup to cool it off. But that's for another thread.

Regarding the posts about freezing electromagnetic energy ...
Decreasing kinetic energy as applied to molecular motion is one thing; heck, we do it all the time when we make ice cubes. But "freezing" pure energy--energy with zero rest-mass--is a whole other ballgame. Physical laws dictate that light (eg) must move at cee--neither slower nor faster, but cee--whereas there are no laws which say you can't slow down molecular motion. Further, if light was affected by extreme cold, well gosh darn, we wouldn't see stars, the moon, or perhaps even the sun, cuz all that light would be frozen in place as soon as it got out into space.

Also (and I hope I explain this right), one must not regard "kinetic" in kinetic energy as a kind of "substance." "Kinetic" is a dynamic description; there are no "quanta of motion," whereas "electromagnetic" defines the physical nature of the energy (its "substance"wink.

Something else, now that I'm thinking of it: How, exactly, does Iceman decrease kinetic energy? While "cold" per se is not an energy, some form of energy must be slowing down the molecules. What? Could Iceman's power be essentially electromagnetic in nature? Or might it be a pure application of consciousness, thus making him psionic (or is psionic to be considered EM in nature, as I've read at times in threads)?

newjak86
Originally posted by leonidas
that's essentially what i said in a diffrent thread -- he affected the medium of transfer and affected the beam as a result.

your idea about scott being able to add more and more energy makes no sense though -- stranger could have done (and presumably tried) to do the same thing and the ice literally froze his eyes.

as for mag's shield -- he would indeed tightly bind the air around him, but the particles would still be in motion, though the motion would be restricted. if he can stop the stranger's beams, i see no reason why he couldn't technically freeze the shield such that someone else could break through it like glass.

jugg's shield and godblast is complicated by magic so that makes it harder to figure. The point I was trying to make about Cyke's eyeblast was that he doesn't make the energy himself but is transeffered through him. This could mean that even Bobby was slowing down the medium the amount of energy Scott was pouring could counteract Bobby's power maybe overpowering it.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Mindship
This I can live with. thumbsup Now, if we can only find a way to explain Superman's freezing breath, which I've always felt was a simple--and grossly inaccurate--exaggeration of (eg) people blowing on soup to cool it off. But that's for another thread.

The way I've always justified Superman's artic breath has it tied into the energy absorption aspect of his powerset. That being that he can by some means controllable extract heat from the air located in his lungs (Kyrptionians might be able to do such a think sans superpowers given their alien physiology) and propel it at incredible speeds do to "super" contractions of his lungs (again his alien physiology might make this possible). Of course there is the psionic explanation of his power that could also explain it.
Originally posted by Mindship

Regarding the posts about freezing electromagnetic energy ...
Decreasing kinetic energy as applied to molecular motion is one thing; heck, we do it all the time when we make ice cubes. But "freezing" pure energy--energy with zero rest-mass--is a whole other ballgame. Physical laws dictate that light (eg) must move at cee--neither slower nor faster, but cee--whereas there are no laws which say you can't slow down molecular motion. Further, if light was affected by extreme cold, well gosh darn, we wouldn't see stars, the moon, or perhaps even the sun, cuz all that light would be frozen in place as soon as it got out into space.

Also (and I hope I explain this right), one must not regard "kinetic" in kinetic energy as a kind of "substance." "Kinetic" is a dynamic description; there are no "quanta of motion," whereas "electromagnetic" defines the physical nature of the energy (its "substance"wink.

Something else, now that I'm thinking of it: How, exactly, does Iceman decrease kinetic energy? While "cold" per se is not an energy, some form of energy must be slowing down the molecules. What? Could Iceman's power be essentially electromagnetic in nature? Or might it be a pure application of consciousness, thus making him psionic (or is psionic to be considered EM in nature, as I've read at times in threads)?

Sounds good to me thumb up.
As for how Iceman's powers work, I'd tend to attribute it to a psionic phenomena more than anything else. You can kind of see a trend leading that way with a lot of mutants and I think it much more of an elegant solution that a real world based explanation.

Mindship
Originally posted by TheKahn
As for how Iceman's powers work, I'd tend to attribute it to a psionic phenomena more than anything else. You can kind of see a trend leading that way with a lot of mutants and I think it much more of an elegant solution that a real world based explanation.

Quite true...until we have to start explaining how "psionics" works ermm if for no other reason than to keep it from becoming a plot device (remember: you can't spell psionic without PIS).

TheKahn
Originally posted by Mindship
Quite true...until we have to start explaining how "psionics" works ermm if for no other reason than to keep it from becoming a plot device (remember: you can't spell psionic without PIS).

It works because writers say it does. Problem solved. wink

I think there is a limit to just how far you can carry an attempt to justify or explain the "superpower" phenomena in comics with actual or theoretical physics and still enjoy the medium as I doubt very many of the writers and editors have put that level of consideration into it themselves. erm

leonidas
Originally posted by Mindship
This I can live with. thumbsup Now, if we can only find a way to explain Superman's freezing breath, which I've always felt was a simple--and grossly inaccurate--exaggeration of (eg) people blowing on soup to cool it off. But that's for another thread.

Regarding the posts about freezing electromagnetic energy ...
Decreasing kinetic energy as applied to molecular motion is one thing; heck, we do it all the time when we make ice cubes. But "freezing" pure energy--energy with zero rest-mass--is a whole other ballgame. Physical laws dictate that light (eg) must move at cee--neither slower nor faster, but cee--whereas there are no laws which say you can't slow down molecular motion. Further, if light was affected by extreme cold, well gosh darn, we wouldn't see stars, the moon, or perhaps even the sun, cuz all that light would be frozen in place as soon as it got out into space.

Also (and I hope I explain this right), one must not regard "kinetic" in kinetic energy as a kind of "substance." "Kinetic" is a dynamic description; there are no "quanta of motion," whereas "electromagnetic" defines the physical nature of the energy (its "substance"wink.

Something else, now that I'm thinking of it: How, exactly, does Iceman decrease kinetic energy? While "cold" per se is not an energy, some form of energy must be slowing down the molecules. What? Could Iceman's power be essentially electromagnetic in nature? Or might it be a pure application of consciousness, thus making him psionic (or is psionic to be considered EM in nature, as I've read at times in threads)?

i get what you're saying about kinetic energy. but what i mean is that it implies that energy exists because something is moving. if i stopped a stream of photons, i would in essence 'freeze' light. now, wave/particle duality makes this even more complex than it already is. is a photon a wave function or a particle or some combination and CAN it be 'stopped' somehow? we know it is a nonzero form of energy, hence it has mass, but does a photon (were i able to stop it from moving) actually possess a REST-mass as opposed to a simple relativistic mass based on wavelength? confused i don't know and the physics is too steep for me. kahn's BEC idea is interesting. but the appearance seems wrong. i could see a cloud of amorphous . . . BECs forming in a pathway and blocking the energy via interference, but crawling UP the stream of outpouring energy and literally freezing it in form and place? blink

pis perhaps, but clearly we need to disregard real-world physics to come up with an explanation, or take speculative physics another step. it also seems he must go beyond just the ability to deal with moisture to have accomplished the task, unless we consider some way that he interfered with the stream of radiation via the medium (air) using the ambient moisture that was around him.

now, why are we bothering with the discussion? for the hell of it i guess. wink

oh, and mindship -- i agree -- the power must be psionic in nature.

leonidas
Originally posted by TheKahn
It works because writers say it does. Problem solved. wink

I think there is a limit to just how far you can carry an attempt to justify or explain the "superpower" phenomena in comics with actual or theoretical physics and still enjoy the medium as I doubt very many of the writers and editors have put that level of consideration into it themselves. erm

amen to that. wink

Mindship
Hey, some people like crossword puzzles to keep their brains sharp.

Us?
To delving into nonsense...drunk Arrrr...

TheKahn
Originally posted by Mindship
Hey, some people like crossword puzzles to keep their brains sharp.

Us?
To delving into nonsense...drunk Arrrr...

cheers

leonidas
alien

Blair Wind
laughing

Blair Wind
Originally posted by Blair Wind
here is the best explaination I could come up with:

Bobby Drake could be, potentially, one of the most powerful mutants on the planet. Look at his power. People say "Ooh! He makes ice." Or now, "Ooh, he turns himself into ice!"

But let's step back. Basic physics says that there's no such thing as "cold", as a quantative energy form. Only degrees of heat. "Cold" is a relative term, requiring a difference between the observed target and the temperature of the observer. Example: I'm standing in my office, at a nice 73 degrees. The cabbie outside is standing on the street, shivering in 40 degrees. To me, he is cold. Whereas if I were buried in snow (great shades of this past weekend) at around 20 degrees, I'd consider him pretty warm.

Right then, we've established that there's no such energy form as "cold". So, Bobby doesn't generate cold to form his ice, and he doesn't generate the moisture himself (imagine how quickly he'd be dehydrated). Therefore, he forms his ice structures from the ambient moisture in the environment around him. To do this, he causes the moisture to freeze.

But how? We know he doesn't "project cold", so then he must absorb or dissipate the heat. By the laws of thermodynamics, energy is constant, it cannot be created or destroyed. However, let's go to another scientific principle. Heat is a measurement of the internal kinetic energy of an object. The more those atoms and molecules are buzzing around, the hotter it is.

What Bobby Drake does, as I see it, is project a field that inhibits the motion of those particles (herein referred to as Brownian Motion) thus dropping the temperature and freezing the moisture.

However, the amount of water vapor in any given area is not consistent with the large stunts Bobby regularly pulls off (re: ice slides, ice walls, etc). If he were to coalesce that much water vapor in one place and freeze it, the humidity all along the Eastern Seaboard would drop dramatically, we'd have wildcat lightning storms all over the place, cats and dogs living together, it would be anarchy, you see my point.

So that extra frozen mass has to come from somewhere. Remember that water vapor isn't the only thing in the air. You have a mixture of all sorts of gases. One of the most prominent of these is carbon dioxide. Compared to the other prominent gases in our atmosphere (nitrogen, the most common, and oxygen), carbon dioxide has a relatively high temperature (although still incredibly low) at which it becomes solid. It is my theory that the most part of Bobby's ice structures are composed of frozen carbon dioxide, or "dry ice". This would also explain why Manhattan isn't flooded every time his ice slides melt, since most of it sublimes back into gaseous carbon dioxide.

So, what Bobby does is inhibit the Brownian Motion of objects. He can do this so quickly that there is no expansion of the target's water content, as was seen when he flash-froze Legion completely. Had he merely frozen all the moisture in Legion's body, well... put an unopened can of soda in the freezer sometime. Wait a few days. Watch the results. Legion would be a messy red chunk when he thawed.

Bobby is an incredibly powerful cryokinetic. But that's not the only extent to his powers. Since Mikhail's fiddling, he can transform his entire body into a water-based organism. In his form of homogenous ice, his thought processes go on, even though water is a MUCH less efficient conductor than neurons in the human brain. Basically, Bobby converts all the molecules of his body into water, and freezes and molds it as he moves. He has the capability to assume a completely liquid form (as Emma Frost did when in control of his body) as well as the potential ability to 'teleport' by zapping his consciousness through water vapor in the atmosphere, reforming at his desired location. In AOA, this was referred to as "moisture inversion". And through all this, he retains the ability to resume human form.

Let me get to why I think he's an Omega-class. Ever see that Star Trek:TNG episode where the alien evolved into a sentient life form? The premise was that eventually, all organic beings would 'evolve' into a more efficient sentient energy-based lifeform. We've seen some mutants that already do this.




Chamber

Malice

Shard

Onslaught


As well as some non-mutants, like the Living Laser, Living Lightning, etc. Bobby falls into this class of 'evolved' beings whose consciousness resides in an energy-based state. He just hasn't realized it yet. Canonically, we've heard it referred to multiple times that Bobby hasn't realized his full potential. Imagine what he could do with realization and training.

Create a 'giant' ice form with corresponding strength and stability.
Create and animate multiple ice forms.
Coalesce all the water vapor in an area into a superdense solid, dropping the humidity rapidly, resulting in chaotic weather effects, mass electrical storms, etc.
Acting as a catalyst for superconducting machinery (we've already seen him do this).


I still like my explaination....

Blair Wind
shifty

Sixth_Winged
no on all unless this happens in the same comic that Stranger's beams got frozen. I doubt most writers would be insane enough to follow that.

Validus
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/tgtsupes/clkdgrv3-01-iceballs.jpg

Skeets
Originally posted by Validus
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/tgtsupes/clkdgrv3-01-iceballs.jpg
Oh,my.

leonidas
i frickin' LOVE this thread. let's add gl energy and superman's hv for sh!ts and giggles!

Quick Freeze
Originally posted by leonidas
i frickin' LOVE this thread. let's add gl energy and superman's hv for sh!ts and giggles!

GL energy is molecules, no? Also if ice can act as a shield of it, it can probably freeze too right? See for yourself:

https://www.comicextra.com/dc-marvel-all-access/chapter-4/6
https://www.comicextra.com/dc-marvel-all-access/chapter-4/11

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.