Liberalism, Conservatism, Extremism, and Moderation

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Lord Urizen
Let me clarify:


First question: Liberalism VS Conservatism

Are you a Liberal? Conservative? A little bit of both? Is one better than the other? If so, why? CAN you be a little bit of both, or do you have to be JUST one or the other?

ME: I'm more of a Liberal, but I still parallel a few Conservative-like mentalities. I am pro-gay rights. I am for freedom of expression, especially in Artistic ways. I am for equality between man and woman. I am against Racism and most forms of Discrimination. I am for most kinds of sexual liberation, and in the End I am always for choice. I am against use of Force to suppress a group of people. I am always for exploration and research on an issue before judgement. However, I am personally against Abortion and the Death Penalty. I think very few cases justify the act of killing.


What about You?



There are many Ultra Conservatives that I cannot meet eye to eye with. In my opinion, many ultra-right wing people seem close minded and harshly judgemental. They seem to beleive that there is ONLY ONE TRUTH and only one acceptable way to live life. It seems they forget about the concept of Free Will, the concept of Choice, and Freedom in general. They tend to think it okay to enforce thier beleifs upon other people, and to involve religion and personal opinion into politics. Many of thier beleifs parallel Dictatorship in my opinion.


However, there are also many Radical Liberals that I cannot meet eye to eye with either. In my opinion, many radical left-wing people seem to think that right and wrong does not exist. They tend to beleive that there is no such thing as morality, and that life is a free for all, some kind of orgy. Even the term "Respect" seems to be a lost cause for many people like this. They tend to think that Law is automatically conformity, and that Order threatens individualism. "I can do whatever I want" seems to be the philosophy of many extremist liberals. Many of thier beliefs parallel Anarchy in my opinion.


I strongly beleive there needs to be a sense of Moderation in all ways of thinking.





Second Question: "Synthesis of Choas and Order"

Can one exist without the other? Is one more valuable than the other? Is "moderation" the mediator between the two? Do you HAVE to pick one over the other? Is Extemism the REAL danger?



I strongly beleive that Chaos and Order thrive off eachother, and that one cannot exist without the other. The Goal of Law should not be to restrict freedom, but to PROTECT it. The Goal of Freedom should not be to DEFY Law, but to SHAPE it.


If there is a constraint on freedom then there is less "choice" involved in determining what our Laws will be and how they will evolve with an ever changing society.

If there is no respect for law, then freedom is endangering itself. The freedoms of one individual would come into conflict with the freedoms of another individual, and there would be no Law to protect one from the other.




What do you guys think?

lil bitchiness
I am a Socialist.

And I cannot see eye to eye with majority of political parties, ideologies, groups and politicians.

Lord Urizen
Isn't Fidel Castro socialist as well? That's why many hispanics admire him.

PVS
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Isn't Fidel Castro socialist as well? That's why many hispanics admire him.

????????????????????????????????????????????????


wow

Jonathan Mark
Originally posted by PVS
????????????????????????????????????????????????


wow
Indeed...

Lord Urizen
Some call him communist. Other call him socialist.

Many cubans hate him. Many love him...

What is there to WOW about ?

Jonathan Mark
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Some call him communist. Other call him socialist.

Many cubans hate him. Many love him...

What is there to WOW about ?
Um... he's a Dictator, and a like most dictators he abuses his power.

Fire

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
Um... he's a Dictator, and a like most dictators he abuses his power.

He alleviated poverty in Cuba. America cut off all supplies to Cuba, therefore he had to run trade and jobs his way.

Abuses his power? The only way I can think of is that he chooses what careers people take. Everyone gets paid around the same price.

Men and Women also get paid around the same wage, unlike in United States where men get paid more than women.

Give me a list of abuses of power Fidel committed, Jonathan MArk, and you have enough valid points, I'll take back this point.

Lord Urizen

Fire
well I can partly agree, I met quite a few extremist liberals (anarchists and the like) and most of them don't carry much hatred.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fire
well I can partly agree, I met quite a few extremist liberals (anarchists and the like) and most of them don't carry much hatred.

Then you've met very loving ones.

I know a few extemist liberals who say things like "I have the right to hate whoever I want". There are Liberals who think that wrong and right do not exist. Some of these extremist examples beleive that "morality" is nothing more than a made up attempt at conformity.

I am a Liberal, and i have many liberal freinds. I feel more free around them, i feel i can be myself without being judged. I also have a few conservative freinds, who although do not approve about much of my behavior or choices, they still respect me enough to not talk about it, and just laugh it off.

But i have recieved more direct prejudice from an extremist liberal than an extremist conservative.

In High School a Liberal Italian harassed me simply because I didn't do drugs. I know it sounds retarted, but in his mind, i was too uptight and had to many sticks up my ass or whatever, i was a "momma's boy" in his eyes, a "teacher's pet", a "pussy" for not ever wanting to take drugs.

I went to a gay club a while back, and i was insulted by many of the guys there because they didn't like my "shirt". It wasn't "$lutty enough" it wasn't revealing enough, it was too "proper" therefore i "why did i bother showing up?" "When you get a sense of style we'll be your freind"....yeah okay, if that's not the most rediculous form of prejudice, i dont know what is...

Oh wait...

Maybe this is....i met a liberal black dude, he hates Bush and all that crap. He wanted to start a fight with me, cuz i slick my hair back. He thought i was italian, im actually hispanic, but it doesn't matter. He called me things like "f-a-g", "pretty boy", "girly boy", "queer" etc. He WANTED to FIGHT because my hair was GELLED....???????


Dude...SOME Liberals are just as dangerous as some conservatives.

Fire
k the extrem-liberals I know sound a lot different, but I can see ur point

PVS
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I went to a gay club a while back, and i was insulted by many of the guys there because they didn't like my "shirt". It wasn't "$lutty enough" it wasn't revealing enough, it was too "proper" therefore i "why did i bother showing up?" "When you get a sense of style we'll be your freind"....yeah okay, if that's not the most rediculous form of prejudice, i dont know what is...

perhaps you didnt meet a dress code? i dont know.
wear a tshirt, jeans, and sneakers to many clubs and the bouncer will stop you right at the front door.
life's a b!tch for us non-dapper slackers, isnt it? sad

WrathfulDwarf
Neither to left or right.

I hate extremists. There are times my comments may seen liberal or conservative. But to me both are like Tweedle and Tweedle dumb.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by PVS
perhaps you didnt meet a dress code? i dont know.
wear a tshirt, jeans, and sneakers to many clubs and the bouncer will stop you right at the front door.
life's a b!tch for us non-dapper slackers, isnt it? sad



Even still.....A bouncer's job is what it is, so that's almost justifiable.

But for some idiot to not want to be your freind cuz he didn't like your shirt? No wait....for TEN idiots to not want to be your freind cuz they don't like your shirt ?

"I mean, i'd **** you...but i wouldn't want to be your freind, cuz that shirt totally gives away what kind of person you are"

One of them actually said that LOL

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Neither to left or right.

I hate extremists. There are times my comments may seen liberal or conservative. But to me both are like Tweedle and Tweedle dumb.

I am against Extremism also. I think I am more against Extremism than ANYTHING else.

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I am against Extremism also. I think I am more against Extremism than ANYTHING else.

I'm their worst nightmare.

I'm the neutral voice. smokin'

lil bitchiness
Never mind...question cleared.


Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I'm their worst nightmare.

I'm the neutral voice. smokin'

lol Hahahaha!

BackFire
I consider myself to be somewhat neutral, much like WD.

Lord Urizen
I'm a little past neutral, more towards the Liberal side.

Tangible God
I'm on the Conservative side.

Soleran
On the conservative side

crazylozer
I'm pretty Liberal myself.

Oh, this is a handy site http://jpagel.net/politicalcompass/

Eis

Fire
K Neat smile

Capt_Fantastic
I can't really answer this question. I'm not really any of the above.

To sum up my views, I guess I'd have to call myself a believer in the idea of a benevolent dictator or a follower of the constitutional monarcy. I believe in a strict retribution towards all indifference. There must be limits, we are not practicing animals, after all.

Ushgarak
See, the original question is bust, because it implies a certain definition of 'liberal' that is not absolute. This country's most famous liberal is Margaret Thatcher, who was of course one of the most right-wing Conservative leaders we ever had. She was Liberal in that she believed in the principle of as little Government- and hence as little law- as possible. Don't you think being for choice is actually a very liberal position?

The definition of 'Liberal' as left-wing has really only come out of the States.

Anyway, when it comes to partisan politics or political views, I am with The West Wing- moderates suck, and partisanship is fantastic.

Darth Jello
I'm an anarchist, not in the sense of not believing in authority or government, but in the sense that I agree with nearly all of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon's observations about failures of government. I also believe that Capitalism would be a better and more equitable economic system if it was blended with some aspects of mutualism. So I guess that makes me a radical progressive.

sithsaber408
I'm a strong conservative (surprise to nobody, I'm sure) with a few liberal social policies mixed in.

-I am for freedom of speech. (all kinds. I just have the common sense to know that some will be hated for their speech i.e. racists, extremists, etc...)

-I am for freedom of religion. (all of them. I am learning more recently to be content with my own and not force it on others.)

-I am for a strong military and aggresive foreign policy. (being the police force/saviours of the world no longer interests me, and I think we ought to hit an enemy BEFORE they are ready to kill our citizens.)

-I support legalized marijuana use for people with a medical need for it.

-I would say that any person arrested for drug USE (not sales, mind you) should not be in jail/prison, but in a treatment program.

-I support homosexual rights up to, and including civil unions for gay couples. (marriage need not be redefined for them not to be discriminated against at tax time.)

The above position is not as strong with me as it once was. I almost feel there should be 2 kinds of marriage: one supported by the state, and one by the church, that could have 2 different types of requirements.

-I am for strict border control.

- I am pro-life. (exceptions made in cases of life of the mother.)



I do want to point out though, that all conservatives are not evil-freedom bashers as some may think.

Though we generaly want the old defintions of life, love, and marriage, we are not so foolish enough as to want the old ways of racism, and prejuidice against women or ethnic minorities.

The days of "whites only" restaraunts and restrooms are straight-up evil and wrong,... as are the days of women having no voice, and being told to stay in the kitchen.

Republicans and conservatives DON'T feel that way.

At least I dont.

In some things, I wish women didnt participate, like war.

I would rather see a woman as an Army nurse, or a computer technican, than as a front-line soldier.

Not because she CAN'T do it, but becuase I don't think she should HAVE to.

Seeing a closed casket service for a young army woman who was blown to pieces by a grenade is sad, and something that I don't personally believe that women were ever meant to have happen to them. (that is, if the men are doing their jobs correctly.)

I grew up on the east-side of San Jose, CA with all mexican/black friends.

I lived in their homes for a few years. I ate tomales for thanksgiving, and menudo for christmas.

I've worked construction, and wearhouse jobs with many folks who were illegal.

I had a stint for a few months as a janitor in a mall, washing plastic dish trays and emptying garbage cans with Mexicans.

They are, by and large, a wonderful group of people.

Full of life, and humour. Working hard to support their families, and trying to make a good life over here.

I'm not tooting my own horn here, just trying to show that I'm no biggot or racist. Estas muy facil por tu comprendar, no?


Even so, I think we should put up a big wall, or at least keep the soldiers at the border.

People in other country's all the world over wait in line for 5, 7, sometimes 10 years to come here legally.

They learn the language, and they integrate into this country, not flying their own flags, but saluting ours.


It sucks to live in some of the poorer country's (like Mexico) and we should help those less fortunate the best we can.

but....

FACT: the whole bloody world CANNOT live here.

Sorry, but they won't fit.

We must do our best in the meantime to allow in as many as we can, fairly, in order, those who have been checked out by us and approved.


As for abortion/gay marriage....

I would be willing to trade one for the other.

Two gays being married (while personally I believe homosexuality to be unnatural, and changing of the defintion as a flagrant attempt to grandstand and call attention to the gay movement) probably won't change whether or not my wife and I are getting along.

It won't affect my kids that much either I guess,... I still have the freedom to teach them that gays are not following God/nature/blank 's natural intentions for men and women.


But abortion really troubles me.

No matter how you slice it, ("murder" or not) it IS the ending of a human life. The "prevention" of a human life.

For.......

sex. erm

15 min. of pleasure is worth more than 50+ years of a human life.

Those who argue for freedoms, for sex if you want it without a baby if you don't want it.....

aren't truly for freedom, as they are supporting the ending of a life, which has been given no freedom in this choice, and is being DENIED all of the freedoms in our constitiution: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Folks who screw should do so knowing that a baby could come from it.

(wait... they already do.)

They should take whatever precautions to prevent it.

If those precautions fail, if the woman is pregnant, she can (either with or without her partner) make the choice to have it or give it up for adoption.

Millions of people every year are abstinent, millions are either giving kids up for adoption or want to adopt.

And many more millions (an entire 1/3rd of my generation) are not allowed to live every year.

That is NOT "freedom."

(except from reality, resonsibiltiy, and moral obligation to nuture,love, and protect innocent lives of children.)

I only support abortion to save the life of a pregnant mother, due to some medical complication associated with birth, or in the case of rape of a girl under the age of 18. I also support parental notification/consent of a girl under the age of 18, so that she is not making a foolish, rash decision by herself.

Hmmm....

I'm done for now. smile

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'm a strong conservative (surprise to nobody, I'm sure) with a few liberal social policies mixed in.

-I am for freedom of speech. (all kinds. I just have the common sense to know that some will be hated for their speech i.e. racists, extremists, etc...)

-I am for freedom of religion. (all of them. I am learning more recently to be content with my own and not force it on others.)

-I am for a strong military and aggresive foreign policy. (being the police force/saviours of the world no longer interests me, and I think we ought to hit an enemy BEFORE they are ready to kill our citizens.)

-I support legalized marijuana use for people with a medical need for it.

-I would say that any person arrested for drug USE (not sales, mind you) should not be in jail/prison, but in a treatment program.

-I support homosexual rights up to, and including civil unions for gay couples. (marriage need not be redefined for them not to be discriminated against at tax time.)

The above position is not as strong with me as it once was. I almost feel there should be 2 kinds of marriage: one supported by the state, and one by the church, that could have 2 different types of requirements.

-I am for strict border control.

- I am pro-life. (exceptions made in cases of life of the mother.)



I do want to point out though, that all conservatives are not evil-freedom bashers as some may think.

Though we generaly want the old defintions of life, love, and marriage, we are not so foolish enough as to want the old ways of racism, and prejuidice against women or ethnic minorities.

The days of "whites only" restaraunts and restrooms are straight-up evil and wrong,... as are the days of women having no voice, and being told to stay in the kitchen.

Republicans and conservatives DON'T feel that way.

At least I dont.

In some things, I wish women didnt participate, like war.

I would rather see a woman as an Army nurse, or a computer technican, than as a front-line soldier.

Not because she CAN'T do it, but becuase I don't think she should HAVE to.

Seeing a closed casket service for a young army woman who was blown to pieces by a grenade is sad, and something that I don't personally believe that women were ever meant to have happen to them. (that is, if the men are doing their jobs correctly.)

I grew up on the east-side of San Jose, CA with all mexican/black friends.

I lived in their homes for a few years. I ate tomales for thanksgiving, and menudo for christmas.

I've worked construction, and wearhouse jobs with many folks who were illegal.

I had a stint for a few months as a janitor in a mall, washing plastic dish trays and emptying garbage cans with Mexicans.

They are, by and large, a wonderful group of people.

Full of life, and humour. Working hard to support their families, and trying to make a good life over here.

I'm not tooting my own horn here, just trying to show that I'm no biggot or racist. Estas muy facil por tu comprendar, no?


Even so, I think we should put up a big wall, or at least keep the soldiers at the border.

People in other country's all the world over wait in line for 5, 7, sometimes 10 years to come here legally.

They learn the language, and they integrate into this country, not flying their own flags, but saluting ours.


It sucks to live in some of the poorer country's (like Mexico) and we should help those less fortunate the best we can.

but....

FACT: the whole bloody world CANNOT live here.

Sorry, but they won't fit.

We must do our best in the meantime to allow in as many as we can, fairly, in order, those who have been checked out by us and approved.


As for abortion/gay marriage....

I would be willing to trade one for the other.

Two gays being married (while personally I believe homosexuality to be unnatural, and changing of the defintion as a flagrant attempt to grandstand and call attention to the gay movement) probably won't change whether or not my wife and I are getting along.

It won't affect my kids that much either I guess,... I still have the freedom to teach them that gays are not following God/nature/blank 's natural intentions for men and women.


But abortion really troubles me.

No matter how you slice it, ("murder" or not) it IS the ending of a human life. The "prevention" of a human life.

For.......

sex. erm

15 min. of pleasure is worth more than 50+ years of a human life.

Those who argue for freedoms, for sex if you want it without a baby if you don't want it.....

aren't truly for freedom, as they are supporting the ending of a life, which has been given no freedom in this choice, and is being DENIED all of the freedoms in our constitiution: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Folks who screw should do so knowing that a baby could come from it.

(wait... they already do.)

They should take whatever precautions to prevent it.

If those precautions fail, if the woman is pregnant, she can (either with or without her partner) make the choice to have it or give it up for adoption.

Millions of people every year are abstinent, millions are either giving kids up for adoption or want to adopt.

And many more millions (an entire 1/3rd of my generation) are not allowed to live every year.

That is NOT "freedom."

(except from reality, resonsibiltiy, and moral obligation to nuture,love, and protect innocent lives of children.)

I only support abortion to save the life of a pregnant mother, due to some medical complication associated with birth, or in the case of rape of a girl under the age of 18. I also support parental notification/consent of a girl under the age of 18, so that she is not making a foolish, rash decision by herself.

Hmmm....

I'm done for now. smile



Wow...now this is the kind of argument I am looking for. smile


I can't argue against your logic, you seem very rational to me, and you've justified all your stances pretty well.

I agree with the fact that Abortion is a more complex issue than Gay Marriage.

I do think the State should grant gay marriage, while the Church has every right to stay true to its tradition.

To me, Abortion is NOT an issue of equality. You don't hear men demanding the right to have "thier own" abortions. It's about life vs death vs choice.

Gay Marriage is ultamately an issue of equality in as many ways as you can think of.

I think it's always a shame to hear of a female soldier who was killed in war, but its the SAME shame to me, to hear a male soldier who died in war. I know the thought of women doing's a "man's dirty work" such as war sounds gruesome, but I think if a woman WANTS to join the army or marines, etc. she should have the option available to her.

She shouldn't be barred from joining a military force just because she is a woman, the same way I feel that 18 year old boys should not have to be drafted just because thier men.

There are many people who WANT to join the military, I think volunteer services are the best way to go. Using Force to gain troops (drafting) or Restricting certain people from joining (like women or gay men) should not be the option.

I used to have VERY Liberal, even offensively Liberal views, especially in the case where I was once so quick to judge religious.conservative people. But I've slowly learned that everyone has the right to beleive what they want, and I have no right to make someone feel bad about it, as long as they are not trying to enforce thier beleifs or standards upon me.

I'm still Liberal, but have a higher respect for many Conservatives, and I've always recognized the need for Law.

Darth_Erebus
I hate the terms "liberal" and "conservative". I am 43 years old and have voted ever since I was 21. I don't think I'm going to continue to vote on a National level anymore, there's no point, both major parties are completely under control of corporations.


On lesser issues I (am)

Pro environment, even at the expense of individual and property rights
Against affirmative action
Support abortion rights
Support capital punishment
Feel the second amendment to the constitution means an individual has the right to own firearms (afterall, why would the government need a constitutional amendment to guarentee it's right to posess arms)
Think religion has no place in government
Support gay rights but oppose gay marriage, but then I oppose ALL marriage as a legal institution
Believe the military should be used for national defense only, never preemptively
Believe we need massive immigration reform, clamping down on illegals and tightening our borders while allowing for legitimate, legal, immigration

I am for the reform of drug laws, either legalizing or decriminalizing depending on the drug and the amount, with some exceptions

I support legalized prostitution



Except for the environment, all these are basically non issues compared to free trade/globalism to which I am opposed, I am opposed to corporate power and corporate influence in government

Sadly, corporations basically ARE the government anymore

Jonathan Mark
I long ago lost all faith in any form of government (and humanity as well... yes I'm a pessimist)... or political party to actually be any better than the other, but I suppose as values go I'm somewhat Conservative.

Darth Jello
the problem with liberalism and conservatism is that they mean a million different things depending on the polysci field you are talking about. When it comes to international relations, the neocons are liberal for example.

Darth Revan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Then you've met very loving ones.

I know a few extemist liberals who say things like "I have the right to hate whoever I want". There are Liberals who think that wrong and right do not exist. Some of these extremist examples beleive that "morality" is nothing more than a made up attempt at conformity.

I am a Liberal, and i have many liberal freinds. I feel more free around them, i feel i can be myself without being judged. I also have a few conservative freinds, who although do not approve about much of my behavior or choices, they still respect me enough to not talk about it, and just laugh it off.

But i have recieved more direct prejudice from an extremist liberal than an extremist conservative.

In High School a Liberal Italian harassed me simply because I didn't do drugs. I know it sounds retarted, but in his mind, i was too uptight and had to many sticks up my ass or whatever, i was a "momma's boy" in his eyes, a "teacher's pet", a "pussy" for not ever wanting to take drugs.

I went to a gay club a while back, and i was insulted by many of the guys there because they didn't like my "shirt". It wasn't "$lutty enough" it wasn't revealing enough, it was too "proper" therefore i "why did i bother showing up?" "When you get a sense of style we'll be your freind"....yeah okay, if that's not the most rediculous form of prejudice, i dont know what is...

Oh wait...

Maybe this is....i met a liberal black dude, he hates Bush and all that crap. He wanted to start a fight with me, cuz i slick my hair back. He thought i was italian, im actually hispanic, but it doesn't matter. He called me things like "f-a-g", "pretty boy", "girly boy", "queer" etc. He WANTED to FIGHT because my hair was GELLED....???????


Dude...SOME Liberals are just as dangerous as some conservatives.

It sounds to me like the people you're describing are just assholes, which has nothing to do with their self-proclaimed political alignment. The "liberal black" guy is hardly what I would describe as a liberal extremist, because of his views on gay people. Liberalism, (from a social point of view) contrary to what you're describing, is entirely about respect: respecting other peoples' religious beliefs, lifestyle choices, sexual preferences, etc. A true leftist, however, should draw the line where abnormality ends and bigotry begins. Basically, if you're not hurting anyone else with your beliefs, they're fine, but no Nazi or Klansmen deserves to have their beliefs "respected" by anyone.

Anyways.... I would describe myself as a socialist. I'm all for Marxist-style communism eventually, but I don't think a true communist state could survive in the world today. If it didn't collapse inwards because of too many greedy bastards unable to accept the concept of money not existing, there's a good chance it would be labeled as a "terrorist" state by somebody.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Darth Revan
It sounds to me like the people you're describing are just assholes, which has nothing to do with their self-proclaimed political alignment. The "liberal black" guy is hardly what I would describe as a liberal extremist, because of his views on gay people. Liberalism, (from a social point of view) contrary to what you're describing, is entirely about respect: respecting other peoples' religious beliefs, lifestyle choices, sexual preferences, etc. A true leftist, however, should draw the line where abnormality ends and bigotry begins. Basically, if you're not hurting anyone else with your beliefs, they're fine, but no Nazi or Klansmen deserves to have their beliefs "respected" by anyone.

Anyways.... I would describe myself as a socialist. I'm all for Marxist-style communism eventually, but I don't think a true communist state could survive in the world today. If it didn't collapse inwards because of too many greedy bastards unable to accept the concept of money not existing, there's a good chance it would be labeled as a "terrorist" state by somebody.



You made a great point, but there are people who identify themselves as Liberals who say that their hatred should also be respected. Many will argue that they have the right to hate anyone they want, and that no one should force them to like someone they don't want to like.

I don't think I ever brought up the "liberal black guy" as a liberal extremist, im sorry if i said that, but i dont thnk that way. I just used that example to show a liberal who is being a hypocrit.

Even if Liberalism is about respect, it is also about the freedom of an individual as oppose to conformity. And in the most extreme mentality, a person can do "whatever they want". There are people who think this way, who consider themselves Liberals.

Personally, I get along more with Liberals than Conservatives, but there are still many liberals i know who I feel I cannot trust. I go to the School of Visual Arts, where 90% of the school is Liberal, yet it is also one of the most hectic enviroments to be in sometimes. There are liberals who don't like the idea of being "politically correct" and will say things like "f.a.g", "negro", "spic", "fat", "ugly" and not necessarily say those things as an insult, but say those things like normal adjectives, and expect no one else to get offended.

Freedom of Speech is ALSO such an issue with some Liberals, as they feel they should be able to say whatever the hell they want, like they don't beleive in cause and effect...consequences.

Bardock42
Do the American definitions of liberal and conservative piss anyone else off?

Darth Revan

Lord Urizen

Lord Urizen
Not to mention Death Raven, that there are many Liberals who think there is nothing wrong with Pedophilia, and that young children and older adults should be allowed to have sex, as long as a young child (like between ages of 8 and 12) gave consent.

If that is not extreme...i duno what else is.

El_NINO
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Isn't Fidel Castro socialist as well? That's why many hispanics admire him.

What the f**k?

Aziz!
Socialist, I believe in free health care, education etc.

Darth Revan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So these "wannabe" liberals that I have been bringing up..if they are not liberal extremists, what would you consider them ?

I would describe them as moderate liberals (I can't really judge their political views, but most self-described liberals are, naturally, somewhere in the middle of the bell curve) who also happen to be assholes as people. Or extreme on the social aspect of politics beyond the point of what is considered a viable political belief. Most likely the first... But then I don't know any of these people.

"Not to mention Death Raven, that there are many Liberals who think there is nothing wrong with Pedophilia, and that young children and older adults should be allowed to have sex, as long as a young child (like between ages of 8 and 12) gave consent.

If that is not extreme...i duno what else is"

I have heard of people like that as well, and I certainly agree with you that they are extremists. I don't think we have the same definitions of liberal. When I say liberal extremist, I mean someone in the Anarcho-Communist realm, which is based mostly on economics. However, like I said, most people I've met who fit into that classification have somewhat the same social political beliefs as I described earlier. I think that while the pedophilia thing is definitely a "liberal" belief, there are so few people who agree with it that it's almost better described as just "weird".

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Darth Revan
I would describe them as moderate liberals (I can't really judge their political views, but most self-described liberals are, naturally, somewhere in the middle of the bell curve) who also happen to be assholes as people. Or extreme on the social aspect of politics beyond the point of what is considered a viable political belief. Most likely the first... But then I don't know any of these people.

"Not to mention Death Raven, that there are many Liberals who think there is nothing wrong with Pedophilia, and that young children and older adults should be allowed to have sex, as long as a young child (like between ages of 8 and 12) gave consent.

If that is not extreme...i duno what else is"

I have heard of people like that as well, and I certainly agree with you that they are extremists. I don't think we have the same definitions of liberal. When I say liberal extremist, I mean someone in the Anarcho-Communist realm, which is based mostly on economics. However, like I said, most people I've met who fit into that classification have somewhat the same social political beliefs as I described earlier. I think that while the pedophilia thing is definitely a "liberal" belief, there are so few people who agree with it that it's almost better described as just "weird".



I would have to say we do have different definitions of liberal extremist.

To me calling someone a Liberal is no less complicated than calling someone a "Christian".

All Christians are different. Some appreciate the idea of Free Will, others ignore the idea of free will. Some go by the book (Bible) word for word, others will tell you do not take the Bible literally. Some Christians are concerned with the well being of other people, other Christians are only concerned about not going to Hell. Some Christians practice tolerance of other people's cultures and decisions, other Christians do not beleive in the notion of "tolerance" only care about conversion.

There are so many different types of Christians, the same way there are so many different types of Liberals. Maybe I used the wrong term, but to me "Extremist" is anybody who will take a certain aspect of some belief and push it to its fullest extant.

Remember when you said that Liberalism is about cultural respect? Well, even THAT can be pushed to far. If ABSOLUTE RESPECT for all ideas and actions was required, i would protest. Because that would mean that I would HAVE TO RESPECT organizations like the KKK and Neo Nazis, and sorry but i could NEVER have respect for such people. I would have to respect thier opinions and points of views, even though thier points of views are hateful and only negative in my eyes.

I beleive firmly in Moderation in all cases. Extremism to me is dangerous no matter what case your talking about.

§ilent
Yeah, I've just found that I'm liberal in most ways, to the point of extremism. Minus the drugs, minus the booze, and minus the promiscuity, though I support everything and anything like that for OTHER people. It's fun to tape and show them later.

badabing
I would consider myself a traditionalist. I don't want the USA to be radically changed in any way. I'm not opposed to tweaks that arise with the changing times though. I'm not a Bible beater but I am starting to rediscover my Faith.

I'm against:
-unfettered abortion. I think that late term abortions should only occur in a medical emergency and that abortions in general should only occur after the woman has a counseling session.

-political correctness. It seems too much like "New Speak" from the novel 1984. I say call things the way you see them, but don't act racist, biased or judgmental.

-big government. The smaller the government the better.

-frivolous lawsuits. They are a waste of time and money. There should be a cost to a party initiating a lawsuit that has no chance of winning.

.:Space Opera:.
"To me calling someone a Liberal is no less complicated than calling someone a "Christian".

All Christians are different. Some appreciate the idea of Free Will, others ignore the idea of free will. Some go by the book (Bible) word for word, others will tell you do not take the Bible literally. Some Christians are concerned with the well being of other people, other Christians are only concerned about not going to Hell. Some Christians practice tolerance of other people's cultures and decisions, other Christians do not beleive in the notion of "tolerance" only care about conversion. "

hence the reason for denominations....

badabing
I try to live my life by simple tenets. Here are a few:

- Knowledge is power.
- May the force be with you.
- Hate the sin, not the sinner.
- Live long and prosper.
- Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

.:Space Opera:.
you should put those on a t-shirt

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by .messedpace Opera:.
"To me calling someone a Liberal is no less complicated than calling someone a "Christian".

All Christians are different. Some appreciate the idea of Free Will, others ignore the idea of free will. Some go by the book (Bible) word for word, others will tell you do not take the Bible literally. Some Christians are concerned with the well being of other people, other Christians are only concerned about not going to Hell. Some Christians practice tolerance of other people's cultures and decisions, other Christians do not beleive in the notion of "tolerance" only care about conversion. "

hence the reason for denominations....

1) Please use the quote feature, thanks

2) Yes, that would very much explain the Christian denominations that have formed over the years.

I am most in touch with Franciscan tradition.....I went to a Catholic School that kept the Franciscan ideals...i LOVED IT ! Best high school i ever went to. Most open minded and loving Christians I ever met. thumb up

Cataclysm
Tough one for me, seeing as how I feel the same way about this as you do. However, I refuse to choose a side.

As far as the definition of Democrat and Republican, I think the terms no longer have any real definition. There no longer seems to be any middle ground, people are either on the Right or on the Left. That is to say, they are conservative or liberal and that's it.

The conservative usually hold beliefs that are more traditional, obsessively patriotic and support big corporations or big money. While liberals are also patriotic, the weight of their beliefs lies in tolerance. Tolerance for everyone and everything. They generally believe in helping others and you'd be hard-pressed to find them standing in line to support your favorite big corporation.
Over the last decade or so, it seems that the conservatives and the liberals have moved further away from each other, if for no other reason, to move farther away from each other. I think it used to look more like this: (L and R on each side represent Left and Right, m = middle; Lib and Con = Liberal and Conservative)

Lord Urizen
Huge example of Conservative Extremists: Ann Coulter sick

The Omega

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Let me clarify:


First question: Liberalism VS Conservatism

Are you a Liberal? Conservative? A little bit of both? Is one better than the other? If so, why? CAN you be a little bit of both, or do you have to be JUST one or the other?

ME: I'm more of a Liberal, but I still parallel a few Conservative-like mentalities. I am pro-gay rights. I am for freedom of expression, especially in Artistic ways. I am for equality between man and woman. I am against Racism and most forms of Discrimination. I am for most kinds of sexual liberation, and in the End I am always for choice. I am against use of Force to suppress a group of people. I am always for exploration and research on an issue before judgement. However, I am personally against Abortion and the Death Penalty. I think very few cases justify the act of killing.


What about You?

Political ideologies and the like aside, if this is in terms of general liberal/conservative ideals and stances then would be considered liberal on many issues social, cultural and technological. But at the same time I am practical. As a result I chose the path, I vote for the party, that has the most good to offer to the most people.

Thus, not an "extreme" with a world view where every thing can be dropped into a "liberal" camp and a "conservative" camp - I approach any issue or debate with an open mind and side with the view or stance that makes the most sense and would be the most beneficial and just. Thus for me it has always been more important to support something because it deserves to be supported, rather then supporting it just to toe a liberal/conservative line.

For example, various stances I support and disagree with from different aspects of society:
- I support homosexuals having equal, in fact the same, rights as heterosexuals. In fact I am for equality as a whole.
- I believe a DNA database for law enforcement would be beneficial
- I support legalising marijuana for medicinal use
- I believe there has to be a balance between the rights of the state and the rights of the people.
- I think a single world government would be a good thing.
- I support increased government spending for health care and educations.
- I believe that governments should insure the basic human rights, the most fundamental needs are always met - health care, food, water, housing, education.
- I support stem cell research, cloning research, genetic modification research.
- I believe in freedom of religion, freedom of artistic expression and so forth.
- I believe nations need to improve their immigration policies to make them fairer and quicker (Australia, yes, you)
-I think every person in a democracy should be legally required to vote.
- I think the media needs to find a way to be more aloof from popular opinion and corporate/political influence. In essence more objective and less subjective.

- I don't support the death penalty
- I think the state should be in charge of pharmaceutical research and production rather then big pharma companies who profit often at the cost of the ill.
- I don't think religions belong in the classroom or government
- I think less should be spent on defense funding
- I think politicians should be held more accountable, with less scapegoating
- I think that while freedom of speech is important, there are limits as to what one should say when it can cause harm
- I dislike extremism, bigotry and racism
- I think to much patriotism is a bad thing
- I think ignorance should be combated at every opportunity

Likewise I pretty much agree with the opinions expressed by Storm.

lord xyz
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I am a Socialist.

And I cannot see eye to eye with majority of political parties, ideologies, groups and politicians.

Lord Urizen

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by El_NINO
What the f**k?

Yes El Nino, Fidel Castro is considered Socialist by many, and a Communist only by United States Government "standards"

Fidel Castro has been a great fighter against Racism and Poverty in Cuba. Before his seat in power, there were only two classes: The extremely rich and the extremely poor. All of the rich were white hispanic, while most of the poor were black Cubans or any other minority.

Fidel Castro has alleviated racism in economy, because now everyone gets paid around the same amount of $$$. Not to mention the government in Cuba now provides every family with thier own cars.

Education is free, Universities are free even under the economic strain that Cuba is undergoing due to United States' and many other nations's embargos.

WAtch more interviews, see more point of views. You are only hearing the points of views of people who dislike Castro due to the fact that they can't strike it "rich" in his country, and probably from Americans who just don't like him for his form of government.

The only negative I can think of is that many people are compelled to take certain career paths, even if they don't want to, but that is only what I heard i dont even know if that is true.

Now, El Nino, my freind, I would appreciate if you sent me a PM as to why you would disagree. Thanks.

Eis
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes El Nino, Fidel Castro is considered Socialist by many, and a Communist only by United States Government "standards"

Fidel Castro has been a great fighter against Racism and Poverty in Cuba. Before his seat in power, there were only two classes: The extremely rich and the extremely poor. All of the rich were white hispanic, while most of the poor were black Cubans or any other minority.

Fidel Castro has alleviated racism in economy, because now everyone gets paid around the same amount of $$$. Not to mention the government in Cuba now provides every family with thier own cars.

Education is free, Universities are free even under the economic strain that Cuba is undergoing due to United States' and many other nations's embargos.

WAtch more interviews, see more point of views. You are only hearing the points of views of people who dislike Castro due to the fact that they can't strike it "rich" in his country, and probably from Americans who just don't like him for his form of government.

The only negative I can think of is that many people are compelled to take certain career paths, even if they don't want to, but that is only what I heard i dont even know if that is true.

Now, El Nino, my freind, I would appreciate if you sent me a PM as to why you would disagree. Thanks.
What you said was simply hilarious. "Isn't Fidel Castro socialist as well? That's why many hispanics admire him."
There are many reasons why it is so, first it implies you're not sure if Fidel Castro really is socialist, which is something every middle-educated american knows.

Then when you say "That's why many hispanics admire him." You make it sound as if mostly hispanics admire him, when he is adored from all parts of the world and of course there is also that the wording makes it seem as if you think the only reason hispanics like him is because he is socialist, and that is obviously wrong.

And for someone that makes such long posts as yourself about Castro's dictatorship, it's... odd that you would ask "Isn't Fidel Castro socialist as well?".

New Faith
First off, liberals are not anarchists. Anarchy is a totally different breed.

Communists, however, is acceptable.

Most of my views as of yet are liberal. However, I can sympathize a lot of the time with the conservative view. I consider mself objective; I will go the way that my concience tells me, not one political party or the other.

No idea can exists without an opposite. Hence, Chaos and Order are supplemental, and rely on each other for survival.

If I had to pick one extreme, I'd pick chaos. The Giver scares the shit out of me.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by New Faith
First off, liberals are not anarchists. Anarchy is a totally different breed.

Communists, however, is acceptable.

What do you mean by this?

PVS
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What do you mean by this?

i cant wait to read the explanation.

Jonathan Mark
One of his few good points...


First of all I oppose any government that sets the wages for employees, that's the job of the employer not the government. If someone didn't get a good education or do well in school so that he could get a good job, oh well that doesn't mean that everyone should be force to earn the same wage. Some people work harder than others to earn good grades and succeed in life and they should not be forced to earn the same wage as those who fail. Yes I can agree that people shouldn't be paid lower wages due to race, but that's not the point I'm making here. In Cuba everyone makes the same wage no matter what they do... and that is just idiotic. Second of all I suggest you learn about economics. Those free cars? Pfft, ever heard of taxes?


Again ever heard of taxes Urizen? Do you have any understanding of economics? Nothing is free. All of that costs his citizenry in taxes (nevermind the inefficiency and pure waste of having the government run all those things).



Urizen I'm not denying that Castro has helped Cuba... but I suggest you do some more research on the man. You might find some things that you will not like.

Some examples...

Fidel Castro's regime is guilty of numerous document-able crimes stretching from the jungles of Peru to the deserts of Ethiopia. Documented reports exist of Cuban troops in cahoots with the Ethiopian government denying food to starving Ethiopians because of their political ideology. In Latin America, Castro funded guerrilla groups throughout the hemisphere generating terror and fear for decades.

Castro formed Committees for the Defense of the Revolution (CDR) which operate on almost every block in Cuba. Spying on neighbors and reporting back to the regime. Negative reports can land one in jail. Talking to foreigners invites questioning into your loyalty to the regime. Large numbers of individuals are incarcerated in Castro's prisons for political crimes ranging from speaking against the regime to trying to leave the island.

In June 1991 at a meeting between Fidel Castro and several members of various communist organizations, it was agreed to set up the infamous Rapid Response Brigades. Their principle aim is to "defend the country, the Revolution and Socialism in all circumstances, by confronting and liquidating any sign of counterrevolution or crime." Trying to leave Cuba without government sanction is a criminal offense punishable by prison. Due to this Cubans are unable to build larger more seaworthy crafts, and resort to inner tubes, and in some cases fiberglass cannisters in search of freedom.

The Castro regime's response to the AIDS crisis has been mandatory nation-wide testing with forced incarceration for anyone who tested positive for the HIV virus. In addition, Castro has had a long tradition of imprisoning homosexuals and transsexuals as "undesirables."

The Omega
Originally posted by Jonathan Mark

Urizen I'm not denying that Castro has helped Cuba... but I suggest you do some more research on the man. You might find some things that you will not like.

Some examples...

Fidel Castro's regime is guilty of numerous document-able crimes stretching from the jungles of Peru to the deserts of Ethiopia. Documented reports exist of Cuban troops in cahoots with the Ethiopian government denying food to starving Ethiopians because of their political ideology. In Latin America, Castro funded guerrilla groups throughout the hemisphere generating terror and fear for decades.

Castro formed Committees for the Defense of the Revolution (CDR) which operate on almost every block in Cuba. Spying on neighbors and reporting back to the regime. Negative reports can land one in jail. Talking to foreigners invites questioning into your loyalty to the regime. Large numbers of individuals are incarcerated in Castro's prisons for political crimes ranging from speaking against the regime to trying to leave the island.

In June 1991 at a meeting between Fidel Castro and several members of various communist organizations, it was agreed to set up the infamous Rapid Response Brigades. Their principle aim is to "defend the country, the Revolution and Socialism in all circumstances, by confronting and liquidating any sign of counterrevolution or crime." Trying to leave Cuba without government sanction is a criminal offense punishable by prison. Due to this Cubans are unable to build larger more seaworthy crafts, and resort to inner tubes, and in some cases fiberglass cannisters in search of freedom.

The Castro regime's response to the AIDS crisis has been mandatory nation-wide testing with forced incarceration for anyone who tested positive for the HIV virus. In addition, Castro has had a long tradition of imprisoning homosexuals and transsexuals as "undesirables."

Several states in the world are guilty of various crimes. The Castro-governments seem no worse than other - socalled democratic states' crimes...

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
One of his few good points...


First of all I oppose any government that sets the wages for employees, that's the job of the employer not the government. If someone didn't get a good education or do well in school so that he could get a good job, oh well that doesn't mean that everyone should be force to earn the same wage. Some people work harder than others to earn good grades and succeed in life and they should not be forced to earn the same wage as those who fail. Yes I can agree that people shouldn't be paid lower wages due to race, but that's not the point I'm making here. In Cuba everyone makes the same wage no matter what they do... and that is just idiotic. Second of all I suggest you learn about economics. Those free cars? Pfft, ever heard of taxes?


Again ever heard of taxes Urizen? Do you have any understanding of economics? Nothing is free. All of that costs his citizenry in taxes (nevermind the inefficiency and pure waste of having the government run all those things).



Urizen I'm not denying that Castro has helped Cuba... but I suggest you do some more research on the man. You might find some things that you will not like.

Some examples...

Fidel Castro's regime is guilty of numerous document-able crimes stretching from the jungles of Peru to the deserts of Ethiopia. Documented reports exist of Cuban troops in cahoots with the Ethiopian government denying food to starving Ethiopians because of their political ideology. In Latin America, Castro funded guerrilla groups throughout the hemisphere generating terror and fear for decades.

Castro formed Committees for the Defense of the Revolution (CDR) which operate on almost every block in Cuba. Spying on neighbors and reporting back to the regime. Negative reports can land one in jail. Talking to foreigners invites questioning into your loyalty to the regime. Large numbers of individuals are incarcerated in Castro's prisons for political crimes ranging from speaking against the regime to trying to leave the island.

In June 1991 at a meeting between Fidel Castro and several members of various communist organizations, it was agreed to set up the infamous Rapid Response Brigades. Their principle aim is to "defend the country, the Revolution and Socialism in all circumstances, by confronting and liquidating any sign of counterrevolution or crime." Trying to leave Cuba without government sanction is a criminal offense punishable by prison. Due to this Cubans are unable to build larger more seaworthy crafts, and resort to inner tubes, and in some cases fiberglass cannisters in search of freedom.

The Castro regime's response to the AIDS crisis has been mandatory nation-wide testing with forced incarceration for anyone who tested positive for the HIV virus. In addition, Castro has had a long tradition of imprisoning homosexuals and transsexuals as "undesirables."




Johnathan I am not actually defending him...read back...El Nino gave ne the "wtf" look when I mentioned how many Hispanics admire Fidel since he is socialist by many standards.

I couldn't care less about him. To me he is no better than Bush and Cheney.

I am only stating why many hispanics admire him, and mostly those are hispanics who are in limbo between being conservative and liberal, and those are hispanics who also think that homosexuality is evil and all that BS.

I don't agree with them. I was just stating the fact that many hispanics DO like him, and El Nino was questioning my statement.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by New Faith
First off, liberals are not anarchists. Anarchy is a totally different breed.

Communists, however, is acceptable.

Most of my views as of yet are liberal. However, I can sympathize a lot of the time with the conservative view. I consider mself objective; I will go the way that my concience tells me, not one political party or the other.

No idea can exists without an opposite. Hence, Chaos and Order are supplemental, and rely on each other for survival.

If I had to pick one extreme, I'd pick chaos. The Giver scares the shit out of me.



Anarchists are liberal extremists. Liberal extremists are those who hold liberal ideals but to an extreme so far off that even moderate liberals like myself cannot agree with.

Liberal Extremists ALSO tend to pick one aspect of liberalism and push it to as far as it can possibly be pushed, the way some cults would take ONE aspect of a religion and expand on that alone.

The aspect here is freedom and choice. Freedom of choice taken to the extreme where there are no limits on one's actions. No punishments, no enforced consequences, choice has free reign. This is just as dangerous as Dictatorship, which can be said to be the ultamate in Conseratism ideals.

I would not pick one over the other. We need Chaos and Order.

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