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Do you think that Darth Vader was more powerful in the OT or the PT? In which aspects of power? (Intelligence, strength, force affinity, force mastery, skill, speed, etc.)

Intelligence: Even as Anakin, Vader was 'incredibly' intelligent, but his arrogance and weak-will left him vulnerable to manipulation (Palpatine). But, OT Vader simply does smarter things.

Strength: OT. That fricken suit allows him to lift a full-grown man off the floor and break his neck with one hand.

Affinity: Ehh. . . PT.

Mastery: Ooh . . . toughie. 'Mastery'? In terms of sheer control, OT. He practiced longer.

Skill: Ehh . . . OT Vader is more skilled, but lacks the maneuverability, speed, and agility to make real use of it.

Speed: PT. Hands down.

Overall, who would you pick as better in the aspects of combat (1v1)?

Not based on what we see in the movies, which is really based on choreography and actor limitations, but based on knowledge of the two, Vader would win. Stronger force mastery, greater strength, as well as a greater dueling ablity, strong enough to allow him to fight most Jedi using one arm, Vader would take Anakin, no question.

Originally posted by Se7in
Not based on what we see in the movies, which is really based on choreography and actor limitations, but based on knowledge of the two, Vader would win. Stronger force mastery, greater strength, as well as a greater dueling ablity, strong enough to allow him to fight most Jedi using one arm, Vader would take Anakin, no question.

Well duh.

Greater dueling ability? I disagree there. Anakin had more flexibility as a Jedi utilizing his skills in Djem So/Shien. He ravaged Asajj, killed Dooku, destroyed a temple of Jedi (With the help of the Clones, of course.) Basically was virtually on par with Kenobi during their duel... Vader was an extremely limited duelist in that suit. I have to say Anakin takes the dueling portion but Vader takes Force, Tactics and raw power. Anakin gets the Dueling, speed and through-and-through arrogance to the bone.

I voted Anakin due to speed and raw power. But I don't see how the concept of midichlorians is accurate when it directly contradicts Yoda's speech in ESB (This isn't PT idiot Yoda, this is OT wise Yoda).

What was his speech in ESB?

Canon- Anakin is more powerful with the Force.

GL makes it clear that Vader lost much of his power with his injuries.

GL also makes it clear that Vader is a cripple, and that only in the PT do we see proper sabre duelling, so pre-injury Vader is better there too.

Vader is no slouch with the Force, but it is actually integral to the plot that he is less than what he was.

RODV and the ANH novels make it clear that Vader is more powerful. ANH was written by George Lucas himself. What do we do now, Ush?

Well, we admit that you are wrong when you say GL wrote the ANH novel- that was Alan Dean Foster (and, of course, it wasn't called ANH either).

GL's direct comment on the matter is- Vader is weaker.

So that clears that up.

If by 'proper saber dueling' you mean 'practicing for the next Michael Flatley show'...

Anakin lost potential, but power? He's had twenty years to practice and learn more and more powers of the Sith.

What was his speech in ESB?

That the force is beyond physical limitation. That kinda conflicts with the concept of midichlorians.

GL's direct comment on the matter is- Vader is weaker.

I've heard some quotes like this, but I'm not sure if he's been crystal clear on the subject?

That, and GL says that Vader is 80% of the Emperor and some cannot view Anakin that high to RotS Sids, let alone RotJ Palpatine.

That he is more practiced is very probably so (thought that would be a measure of skill not power), but the whole point, as GL describes it, is that the Emperor considers Vader now to be too weak, and wants him replaced by Luke.

What he wanted in Anakin, the Emperor never got.

After all- how much do we actually see Vader DO with the Force after his little outburst in ROTS? Grip a few throats and throw a few things. Not groundbreaking stuff.

no the emperor wants to replace vader because Luke has A LOT more potential. and if vader was a cripple then how did he pwn 5 jedi in Purge?

I would suggest that things that suggest that are in error compared to GL.

Vader- who after all, had trouble taking even Luke, just a Padawan- was hardly in a position to fight five proper Jedi.

Like I say, GL has no hesitation in syaing there were no proper duellists in the OT.

Well, he is 80% of Palpatine. This leads me to believe he was playing with Luke the entire time. RotJ and ESB.

until luke pulled a anakin and vader pulled a dooku. same thing happened really.

But Anakin was a fully trained Knight riding to the height of his powers.

Luke had only just begun, really.

No no, Vader is clearly a shell of what he was. The man we saw in ROTS was far more dangerous, except in that he wasn't the smartest tool in the shed.

When would Vader have a reason to do anything else with the force, exactly?

until luke pulled a anakin and vader pulled a dooku. same thing happened really.

I disagree. Although it's arguable that Dooku was holding back on Anakin (I'm doubting this as well), Dooku did not want his arms cut off... Vader on the other hand, clearly wanted to die for Luke.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
When would Vader have a reason to do anything else with the force, exactly?

You can't go around saying that just because we didn't see him move a planet with the Force, that doesn't mean he couldn't. We can only make conclusions based on the evidence before us.

The simple fact is that there is no evidence that Vader was extremely powerful with the Force, and we have a direct comment from GL saying he had become less powerful with the Force... so there is not really any room for argument here.

Btw, yes, he was crystal clear on it.

Well his use of telekinesis without the need to use his hands as a guide was pretty impressive and says a lot about his force control.

At the most that is stylistic vaguery. Nearly all the time he uses movements like everyone else.

I don't know why people are so keen to see him like this. Vader is one of the greatest screen villains of all time, and he didn't need to be a Force God to do it.

Originally posted by Xavius
Greater dueling ability? I disagree there. Anakin had more flexibility as a Jedi utilizing his skills in Djem So/Shien. He ravaged Asajj, killed Dooku, destroyed a temple of Jedi (With the help of the Clones, of course.) Basically was virtually on par with Kenobi during their duel... Vader was an extremely limited duelist in that suit. I have to say Anakin takes the dueling portion but Vader takes Force, Tactics and raw power. Anakin gets the Dueling, speed and through-and-through arrogance to the bone. Oh oh, he used to be so flexible!! Why is Vader turning more and more into a real criple after time just because there is cool new stuff about Anakin and such and Lucas doesn't like the idea anymore about Vader being the best duelist of the universe?
It's sci-fi, why would his suit have limitations when they could build death stars. So he lost midi-chlorean bull-shit, he is a little less in tune with the force after his lava bath. Lucas has become a looney.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, we admit that you are wrong when you say GL wrote the ANH novel- that was Alan Dean Foster (and, of course, it wasn't called ANH either).

GL's direct comment on the matter is- Vader is weaker.

So that clears that up.


did ADF write SW? on my copy it says GL, or do you mean the book that came after SW because i know ADF wrote that one

Not a single word of the Star Wars novel is from George Lucas. ADF wrote it entirely, under GL's name.

I still don't see Anakin being 80% of Sidious, which is pretty much 80% of Yoda (Probably greater, at this point).