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IF this has been discussed before I apologize, and hope a helpful soul will point me in the direction of the correct thread...

I just saw Episode 1 again on Danish TV and was struck by something which I do not understand.
When Obi-Wan and Yoda dies they slowly vanish and pass into the Force ... why doesn't that happen to Qin-Gon?

A heck of a lot, but a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng timw ago.

The issue is not fully explored. But basically, it is because QGJ is the pioneer, and it isn't done 'right' with him.

So basically, his body does not disappear for the same reason he only appears in voice rather than ghost form.

It is sadly not entirely clear what that reason is.

Originally posted by Ushgarak


It is sadly not entirely clear what that reason is.

sad indeed. especially since it was promised to be revealed

Well, I realize that in Episode III Yoda tells Obi-Wan that "an old friend" has found his way from the Netherworlds of the Force (or some such).
Sa at that time I thougt maybe very strong and old and wise Jedis would have this ability...
But then... When Vader returns to his "old self" and dies a Jedi, he doesn't disappear either... yet we see Anakin at the very end of Episode VI with Yoda and Obi-Wan... ?

One word: Laggggg!

And technically Anakin was never dead. If he died when he became Vader, he should have disappeared.

Did somewhere Lucas "promise" that mystery would be revealed in some speech or interview, or what exactly were his words about why jedis fade in and out?

People, It's a movie. When Lucas was making an Original trilogy he din't even think about that kind of stuff. And why would he suddently put a character of Qui-Gon in, it wouldn't make sense. Imagine if, or example, Qui-Gon would be in the last scene of episode VI. It wouldn't make sense to the audience.

...uuuh. What did ya say? JUST A MOVIE!!!???

Thank you, Sauro, for that outsiders view.

Ush pretty much explained it.

And hello The Omega!

Qui gon learned the force ghost thing after he died, then he told Yoda while he was meditating in EP III. Then Yoda taught Obiwan. Anakin learned it after death just like Quigon.

Its because Qui gon didnt accept his fate, Yoda and Obi wan accepted there death's.

Originally posted by The Omega
Well, I realize that in Episode III Yoda tells Obi-Wan that "an old friend" has found his way from the Netherworlds of the Force (or some such).
Sa at that time I thougt maybe very strong and old and wise Jedis would have this ability...
But then... When Vader returns to his "old self" and dies a Jedi, he doesn't disappear either... yet we see Anakin at the very end of Episode VI with Yoda and Obi-Wan... ?

Just to answer that:

1. No, old, wise Jedi Masters don't do it. It has never happened before. That's vitally important, else Vader would know it was possible, which he did not.

2. Indication from Lucasfilm has bene that the idea is that Vader did vanish, inside the suit.

How he knew how to do it is another thing entirely.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Just to answer that:

1. No, old, wise Jedi Masters don't do it. It has never happened before. That's vitally important, else Vader would know it was possible, which he did not.

2. Indication from Lucasfilm has bene that the idea is that Vader did vanish, inside the suit.

How he knew how to do it is another thing entirely.

the problem with that: vader was already dead, while yoda and ben vanished either a split second before or after they died. so the common reply would be that anakin disappeared on the deathstar. but if that was the case, why did luke take the suit with him? if anakin was gone, then all that remained was an empty suit which only symbolised the man who "betrayed and murdered" anakin.

anyway, he could have known how because of ben or yoda instructing him as he died.

Originally posted by PVS
the problem with that: vader was already dead, while yoda and ben vanished either a split second before or after they died. so the common reply would be that anakin disappeared on the deathstar. but if that was the case, why did luke take the suit with him? if anakin was gone, then all that remained was an empty suit which only symbolised the man who "betrayed and murdered" anakin.

anyway, he could have known how because of ben or yoda instructing him as he died.
No, Vader was not already dead. He was dying but he was not completely dead yet. Laying back and closing your eyes does not equal dead. It's the same way Yoda died, with his head back and his eyes closed.

It was probably the same thing that happened to Qui Gon, they both died, got cremated, then went to the ghost after life a short while later after figuring it or something.... I doubt Yoda or Obi Wan would teach him some advanced technique at spirit immortality in a few seconds. Plus he would have to have been taught while he was alive, and he died right in front of our eyes.

Originally posted by darthsith19
No, Vader was not already dead. He was dying but he was not completely dead yet. Laying back and closing your eyes does not equal dead. It's the same way Yoda died, with his head back and his eyes closed.

so you imply he was just sleeping on the shuttle?
yoda died as soon as his eyes closed, since as soon as that
happened he vanished. if you want to get scientific, then the
mind operates for about a half a minute or so after the body dies.
so maybe that would explain the short gap in time between the time
yoda closed his eyes and when he disappreared. although i hate
mingling science with star wars, its a better explanation than
'he was just closing his eyes'

vader was dead on the death star. he died in lukes arms, as
he and luke both knew he would. when the suit shut down, he
could no longer live, and thus he closed his eyes and died. to
look into that further and disagree is nuts.

Seems to me the only Force Netherworlder Jedi who didn't die was Obi-Wan. Anakin/Vader, Yoda, Qui-Gon, all died in the crude-matter world. Perhaps old Obi-Wan was the wisest of them all.

Originally posted by PVS
the problem with that: vader was already dead, while yoda and ben vanished either a split second before or after they died. so the common reply would be that anakin disappeared on the deathstar. but if that was the case, why did luke take the suit with him? if anakin was gone, then all that remained was an empty suit which only symbolised the man who "betrayed and murdered" anakin.

anyway, he could have known how because of ben or yoda instructing him as he died.

Yoda faded after eyes closing etc/ Your statement of 'Vader was already dead' is based purely in the idea that he dropped dead there and then that instant.

It's hardly a stretch to say he faded just after that scene.

Luke took the suit with him for the symbolism. Yes, he burnt the empty suit, and all it represented.

Obi-Wan didn;t go in any different circumstances to the others.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yoda faded after eyes closing etc/ Your statement of 'Vader was already dead' is based purely in the idea that he dropped dead there and then that instant.

It's hardly a stretch to say he faded just after that scene.

thats great, only i wasnt disagreeing with that...the idea that vader may have died (seconds) after the scene ended.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Luke took the suit with him for the symbolism. Yes, he burnt the empty suit, and all it represented.

this is what i dont agree with. the suit represented all that was evil in vader.
if anakin vanished then and there, there was no reason for luke to have any sentiment for a mechanical suit. in fact by doing so he would be seperately honoring the man who betrayed and murdered anakin, a man who was just defeated by anakin, and thus a man which no longer existed on any plane.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
How he knew how to do it is another thing entirely.
One theory I've heard, is that as Anakin was brought into existence by the Force, when he died, the Force 'took him back'.

There is a reason for everything because Star Wars is real..

I think it was because obiwan had learned to become one with the force before he actually became one with the force, and qui gon had taught him.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Luke took the suit with him for the symbolism. Yes, he burnt the empty suit, and all it represented.

From the film only, however, we don't know that it was an empty suit Luke burned. With all the smoke rising from the mask, you gotta believe there's a body in there... plus it's different color smoke than the rest of the pyre. One must conclude there's a body in there.

One's body doesn't have to disappear to join the netherworld, (e.g., Qui-Gon). While Obi-Wan probably joined instantaneously as he disappeared.

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
I think it was because obiwan had learned to become one with the force before he actually became one with the force, and qui gon had taught him. The scary thing is that Lucas actually first wrote that Obi Wan suddenly materialised back in an early draft of RotJ, maybe he also had that in mind when he made it up in ANH that he should dissapear.

George lucas was drunk when he wrote episode 1

Originally posted by LORD JLRTENJAC
George lucas was drunk when he wrote episode 1




No, not quite.

But if you watch the VERY FIRST web-doc, from Episode I, his daughter had been sick the night before, and he was up all night, with no sleep.

Then he goes: " Here's my new yellow tablets of paper, my number 2 pencils,.....all I need is an idea!"


Think he needed a little more sleep before writing that one, do ya?

I don't think he originally planned for Qui Gon to become a ghost.

gui-gon was the first person (recently) to learn how to do the force ghost thing..he taught yoda, and yoda taught obi ("learn to commune with him, i will each you"..and i think anikan had to figure it out for himself, like qui-gon did..

Anakin was already one with the force. He didn't have to learn how to become a ghost.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
I don't think he originally planned for Qui Gon to become a ghost.

i think he planned for quigon to be a ghost, the same as ben, yoda, and anakin. i think he planned on having a scene with a semi-transparent and glowing liam neeson.

Originally posted by Darth Vious
One theory I've heard, is that as Anakin was brought into existence by the Force, when he died, the Force 'took him back'.

Thats the stupidest theory i've ever heard in my life. It's like saying you've commited the biggest sin in your life and you go to heaven. In my opinion Anakin should not have become one with the force after what he did in ROTS. However the only reason he was able to go was because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, they were his closest friends so that may explain a lot

Originally posted by MC_GG
Thats the stupidest theory i've ever heard in my life. It's like saying you've commited the biggest sin in your life and you go to heaven. In my opinion Anakin should not have become one with the force after what he did in ROTS. However the only reason he was able to go was because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, they were his closest friends so that may explain a lot


AAAAA.....guess what. Yes he did do a lot of bad stuff.. but ultimately he brought balance to the force, and did the right thing by destroying the emperor( and all evil he represented). He deserved to become one with the force. At least the creator of the Star Wars-George Lucas thought so.

why do people assume that the force punishes?

Redemption is a big for Lucas, that's also why he had Han "redeem" himself by turning around and coming back to fight with Luke in the Death Star trench. It's a milder form of what Vader ultimately did, but similar.

i just dicussed this to a friend he say it because he didnt know how to go into that blue ghost form obi wan and yoda knew how he later found out this nether happened to a sith exept vader

THe disappearing thing is really one of the things Lucas really screwed up on. It is very inconsistent. THat lame little explanation that Qui-Gon found a few for eternal life at the end of ROTS.... very odd.... Then OB1 has 20 years to work on it, and Anakin does it instantly or so... I dunno.

And if Lucas had explained everything down to a formula, such as:

X (# of your midichlorians) x
Y (years of studying the force) x
Z (years of jedi masterhood) x
A (# of selfless acts) x
B (Jedi mind tricks) /
C (floating fruit to get chicks) =
E (Ratio of achieving eternal life)

you'd be happy?

Originally posted by PVS
the problem with that: vader was already dead, while yoda and ben vanished either a split second before or after they died. so the common reply would be that anakin disappeared on the deathstar. but if that was the case, why did luke take the suit with him? if anakin was gone, then all that remained was an empty suit which only symbolised the man who "betrayed and murdered" anakin.

anyway, he could have known how because of ben or yoda instructing him as he died.

My theory, not as good as the real explanation Lucas alone could give, is that Luke knew the suit was the vessel keeping Anakin alive until he could redeem himself.

While the suit was, in fact, the very symbolism of Vader that we all knew and sat in awe of looking at from the first time we saw Episode IV, in Episode VI, Luke made it clear he knew his father was still in there and there was still good in him.

To Luke, Vader was simply a transport Anakin was riding in until the moment he saw Luke writhing in pain at the Emperor's blasts. A necessary evil for Luke to endure to allow his father to redeem himself.

Could Luke have taken the emperor alone if he didn't have the ulterior motive of redeeming his father? That is a question that we could debate for pages and pages of posts.

LMAO, no, Luke would get WTFpwned by Palpatine. Actually wait, he DID get WTFpwned by Palpatine. Vader saved him, if Vader didn't turn back to the light at that point, Luke was dead. Thats the suspense of the scene, the very point of the whole movie. Anakin must choose between his son, or the evil he's been living with for the past 20+ years under Palpatine. To Vader it was like "Can I let my son die, like I let my mother die, and then like I let Padme die, all for this man who I know is evil?" and the answer was no. Vader always had a soft spot for Luke, he never fought Luke really, he never, in ESB or ROTJ, had any intent, or tried in any way to kill Luke. He was always in "conflict" as Luke kept saying. Anyways, I'm rambling, but the point is that Palpatine would pwn Luke had he attempted to fight him head on.

Originally posted by chinabing
And if Lucas had explained everything down to a formula, such as:

X (# of your midichlorians) x
Y (years of studying the force) x
Z (years of jedi masterhood) x
A (# of selfless acts) x
B (Jedi mind tricks) /
C (floating fruit to get chicks) =
E (Ratio of achieving eternal life)

you'd be happy?

No no no....

Looks, Lucas did a very inconsistent thing. McCallum even claimed that Anakin ALSO disappeared right after death. THen I wonder: why didn't they show it? As far as I'm concerned, Anakin is still IN the suit while it's getting burned. For some odd reason Anakin immediately receives his credits in Force heaven and he looks the way he did when he was an arrogant annoying brat.

It all just doesn't make sense... but then, maybe it isn't supposed to.


On a side note... does anyone think Luke even KNEW at the end of ROTJ who that young ghost figure with the long hair was?

Luke probably figured that Anakin's ghost was just some drinking buddy of Obi-Wan's who he sliced up in a drunken rage one night.

Indeed.... LOL