Was Mace's Posse Supposed to Look Stupid?

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PVS
you know....when they put palpatine under arrest.
they went down like idiots...and this always annoyed me
since they are supposed to be among the best as far as jedi go.

but then i remember the scene where anakin, obiwan, and palpatine
are caught in the ray shields and obiwan gets confused and asks
why the hell they were being so stupid. "wait a minute...we're smarter than this!"

so, was that why they were so shitty?
was palpatine draining their wit through the dark side?

discuss

Tangible God
Agen Kolar (I think that's him) was the really stupid one. He was f*ckin' looking the other way for crying out loud.

Blue_Hefner
They all were stupid--for even coming.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by PVS
you know....when they put palpatine under arrest.
they went down like idiots...and this always annoyed me
since they are supposed to be among the best as far as jedi go.

but then i remember the scene where anakin, obiwan, and palpatine
are caught in the ray shields and obiwan gets confused and asks
why the hell they were being so stupid. "wait a minute...we're smarter than this!"

so, was that why they were so shitty?
was palpatine draining their wit through the dark side?

discuss

If you listen to the commentary on the ROTS dvd, Lucas says that it seems stupid for them to get caught in such a simple trap (ray shileds), but if you look at the whole picture, while they saved Palpatine, they still wanted to capture Grievous.

They got to him in the easiest way, being "captured".

The whole bit with R2 zapping the droids so Obi could grab his saber was planned by the Jedi.

As for the Jedi SWAT team,.....

They just sucked.

Sesse
"
Mace Windu decides, after getting information from Anakin, that he is going to confront and arrest Chancellor Palpatine. He picks as his helpers what would appear to be three of the shabbiest Jedi he could find.

http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/images/ep3_owned_saeseetiin.gif Saesee dies immediately. He is technically ranked as a 'Master,' though you wouldn't know it the way he holds his lightsaber in the manner most would hold a vacuum cleaner, yet uses it to even less of a defensive advantage. The novelization goes into great albeit unnecessary detail about how he had two horns but one got cut off in combat but had grown back perfectly so that one could not even tell. This makes one wonder why the horn being cut off was even brought up in the first place.

http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/images/ep3_owned_agenkolar.gif Kolar lasts a second longer than Tiin, but wields his lightsaber even less expertly. By this point, the viewer is wondering if Mace even bothered to find Jedi to accompany him to Palpatine's office, or if he just rounded up some panhandlers along the way and handed out lightsabers.

http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/images/ep3_owned_kitfisto.gifKit Fisto is everyone's favorite Jedi whose name sounds like a bizarre sexual fetish. We know Kit Fisto is going to put up some fight based on his major role in the Clone Wars cartoon series. However, while Fisto does great things in the cartoon fighting alongside the Mon Calamari and using his lightsaber underwater his technique in the movie seems to more closely resemble that of a frightened, blind gimp than a Jedi Master. Fisto just holds out his lightsaber with a look of total panic on his face. His notoriety from the Clone Wars series appears to only buy him a few extra seconds of screen time before finally being struck down.


It's apparent that the intent of this scene was to show how powerful Sidious is. Unfortunately, it fails for two reasons. 1.) We haven't really seen these Jedi do anything worthy of note. Aside from Kit Fisto deflecting blaster fire from battle droids in the previous movie (which, if these movies are any indicator, it seems anyone holding a lightsaber is able to do), we haven't seen him do anything outside of the cartoon series to show that he is even a subpar Jedi. Given our lack of knowledge about the inept Jedi "Masters" that Palpatine faces, he might as well be striking down his cleaning lady. 2.) The Jedi die so quickly, by such weak attacks, that they just look like a collection of fools.

If they'd already been shown as skilled swordsmen, then it would be quite shocking that Palpatine dispatched them so easily. Unfortunately, we don't know them from a hole in the wall, so Palpatine's seemingly harmless attacks make them look like unskilled circus performers.
"

I think this says it all...

.:Space Opera:.
you can make all the excuses you want, but what i believe is that lucas was frickin running out of time and had to disperse the jedi quickly to save time in the movie for other 'more important' things. thats why i believe that ep 3 shouldve been cut into two movies, ep 2 being the first in the prequels, and ep 1 being thrown out the window like the rest of the garbage.

MEDVOCK

Vraya
Originally posted by Tangible God
Agen Kolar (I think that's him) was the really stupid one. He was f*ckin' looking the other way for crying out loud. In Kolar's favor, there was a really nice lamp on the desk of Palpatine's office yes stick out tongue

PVS
Originally posted by sithsaber408
If you listen to the commentary on the ROTS dvd, Lucas says that it seems stupid for them to get caught in such a simple trap (ray shileds), but if you look at the whole picture, while they saved Palpatine, they still wanted to capture Grievous.

They got to him in the easiest way, being "captured".

The whole bit with R2 zapping the droids so Obi could grab his saber was planned by the Jedi. or else why the dialogue?

As for the Jedi SWAT team,.....

They just sucked.

no, they did NOT get captured on purpose, or why else would we have seen obiwans "wtf???" moment. he couldnt understand why they we being so stupid, and openly questioned it.

also remember yoda sitting across from palpatine in ep 2. "the dark side clouds EVERYTHING"

obviously the sith have some form of mind manipulation on the jedi.
now, i didnt say control, i said manipulation (for any knee-jerk responders) the blatant clues are all there.

Blue_Hefner
Mace was stupid for not being Anakin.

chinabing
We did this already, you're monday-morning quarterbacking.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386176

chinabing
Originally posted by chinabing
We did this already, it's all monday-morning quarterbacking.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386176

The Jedi don't look stupid, they look overwhelmed.

PVS
Originally posted by chinabing
We did this already, you're monday-morning quarterbacking.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386176

a related topic, yes. but not a dupe topic.
the thread you link simply asks "why was mace windu's posse so lame"
whereas this thread asks the question "were they intended to be lame?"
sorry to pop your balloon sad

Alliance
do we need to stsy so on-topic that in thread in about "why" we can't answer part of the "why" because we use the word "intention"

PVS
Originally posted by Alliance
do we need to stsy so on-topic that in thread in about "why" we can't answer part of the "why" because we use the word "intention"
its a different premise. but im not going to argue this with a backseat mod.
report this thread to the mods. see what ush thinks about it.
if he feels its a dupe he will merge it, if not it will stay. isnt that convenient? now....topic?

Vraya
Originally posted by PVS
its a different premise. but im not going to argue this with a backseat mod.
report this thread to the mods. see what ush thinks about it.
if he feels its a dupe he will merge it, if not it will stay. isnt that convenient? now....topic? haha



backseat mod

laughing out loud

systemshock2
Originally posted by PVS
you know....when they put palpatine under arrest.
they went down like idiots...and this always annoyed me
since they are supposed to be among the best as far as jedi go.

but then i remember the scene where anakin, obiwan, and palpatine
are caught in the ray shields and obiwan gets confused and asks
why the hell they were being so stupid. "wait a minute...we're smarter than this!"

so, was that why they were so shitty?
was palpatine draining their wit through the dark side?

discuss

It's possible, especially regarding the ray shield scene. Here's some direct quotes from the novel right after the ray shields drop down, when Obi-Wan and Anakin argue about how they were caught so easily. You can take anything written from the ROTS novel as canon or noncanon if you'd like, at least it offers an insightful perspective on the matter.

---------------------------
"Joke some other time," Obi-wan muttered. "It's the dark side-the shadow of the force. Our instincts still can't be trusted. Don't you feel it?"

The dark side was the last thing Anakin wanted to think about rightnow. "Or, you know, it could be that knock on the head," he offered.

Obi-Wan didn't even smile. "No. All our choices keep going awry. How could they even locate us so precisely? Something is definitely wrong here. Dooku's death should have lifted the shadow-"

"If you've a taste for mysteries, Master Kenobi," Palpatine interrupted pointedly, "perhaps you could solve the mystery of how we're going to escape."
---------------------------------

Then it goes onto the rest of the scenes. Now taking Obi-Wan's thoughts about their easy capture into consideration, it's plausible to then decipher that Mace's posse was also affected by the dark side of the force, which might then explain why they were taken down so easy.

.:Space Opera:.
were mlooking at it way to deeply. it was just a shity scene thats all.

MEDVOCK
Well, I honestly thought Kit Fisto did great fighting alongside Mace. Notice how fluently he moves as he blocks Sidious's barrage of attacks. He even manages to slide himself between Mace and Sidious, in an attempt to gain more space in order to deliver what he thought would be the "finishing blow". Hell, he even manages to WAVE to the audience whilst fighting for his life!
Kit Fisto was one of only three Jedi to EVER duel Sidious (in saber combat), and it just so happens that this particular scene was one of the most (if not THE most) important in the ENTIRE saga! Imagine if Sidious didn't attack Kit during his twirl!
There is one thing I don't understand though, and that is how Kit Fisto somehow manages to make his way two meters to the right during his saber twirl, only to be slashed across the waist by Sids. I honeslty think there was more to this duel, and that someday in the future, when the ultimate prequal trilogy is released, we will finally be able to see the full performance, UNCUT.

PVS
you honestly convinced yourself that kit put up a good fight?

MEDVOCK
you honestly convinced yourself that kit put up a good fight?

I think he put up more than a good fight.

jollyjim311
I hate Medvock so much... Fisto sucked and died with the rest of 'em, shut up.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by sithsaber408
If you listen to the commentary on the ROTS dvd, Lucas says that it seems stupid for them to get caught in such a simple trap (ray shileds), but if you look at the whole picture, while they saved Palpatine, they still wanted to capture Grievous.

They got to him in the easiest way, being "captured".

The whole bit with R2 zapping the droids so Obi could grab his saber was planned by the Jedi.

As for the Jedi SWAT team,.....

They just sucked. Originally posted by PVS
no, they did NOT get captured on purpose, or why else would we have seen obiwans "wtf???" moment. he couldnt understand why they we being so stupid, and openly questioned it.

also remember yoda sitting across from palpatine in ep 2. "the dark side clouds EVERYTHING"

obviously the sith have some form of mind manipulation on the jedi.
now, i didnt say control, i said manipulation (for any knee-jerk responders) the blatant clues are all there.

*ahem*

Direct quote of George Lucas on the Episode III dvd commentary track:


"I like the idea of doing a rayshield, and I like the idea of these guys falling into a very..simple trap, that you think is a trap, but then later on you realize that they wanna get Palpatine, but they also want to get rid of Grievous, and this is sort of the fastest way to get there."





Would you like your humble pie whole or in pieces? smart

drwerwer
Well the reason mace brought these guys to help him were since all the other good jedi were gone fighting wars and these three guys were the best left besides anakin but mace didnt trust anakin.

PVS
Originally posted by sithsaber408

"I like the idea of doing a rayshield, and I like the idea of these guys falling into a very..simple trap, that you think is a trap, but then later on you realize that they wanna get Palpatine, but they also want to get rid of Grievous, and this is sort of the fastest way to get there."

thats great, but he doesnt say that they got caught on purpose. all he says is that it was convenient that they got caught. the dialogue speaks quite the opposite, but i guess you've been watching it on mute all this time.

anakin: ray shields

obiwan: wait a minute....were smarter than this!!!

so ill decline on that humble pie, and offer you a icy cold glass of stfu beer

.:Space Opera:.
yes.


that was a sweet comeback.

Council#13
Saesee Tiin was a Jedi Master, despite the fact that he never took a padawan learner. That has to count for something. Alright, so people may say that Coleman Trebor was also a Jedi Master, but he was 1). caught by suprise by Jango 2). he used Niman, an ineffective form. Discribed as a "formidable warrior", and that scene in ROTS doesnt count for crap. Do you really think that anyone would move so slowly? Duh no. It seemed to be slowed down, and according (once again) to the Star Wars Databank, Palpatine was imbued with the power of the Force, which pretty much propelled him forward and quickly. In the ROTS novelization, he was distracted. End of Saesee for the moment. no expression

Agen Kolar defeated Quinlan Vos. Does that mean that Quinlan Vos was also a dumbass fighter? End of Kolar for the moment. no expression

Kit Fisto. End for the moment. no expression

Why would Mace Windu have such crummy Jedi accompany him if he didn't think they were capable? He would have seen the possibility of failure, and could have left the Jedi Masters behind in the last defense of the Temple. No, he didn't, because he thought that they could defeat Palpatine.
I'm sleepy so I won't elaborate

PVS
have you stopped to consider that perhaps palpatine is so powerful at manipulation that only mace or yoda could have kept up with him?
notice how yoda is convinced that kenobi could not defeat palpatine...
does that mean that mean that kenobi sucks too? of coarse no.

all i know is that there were 4. palps cut through 3 like butter,
and then got his ass royally handed to him. it just tells me that
mace was superior by leaps and bounds.

i think the scene means everything, because in that scene 3 jedi died in the blink of an eye. for whatever the reason, GL knew that he was making a scene about 3 jedi who get owned. he knew this. he consciously knew that he was making them look like they could not even TOUCH palpatine, and it came off accurate.

PVS
forgot to add:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/PVS/Smilie.gif

Council#13
Originally posted by PVS
have you stopped to consider that perhaps palpatine is so powerful at manipulation that only mace or yoda could have kept up with him?
notice how yoda is convinced that kenobi could not defeat palpatine...
does that mean that mean that kenobi sucks too? of coarse no.

all i know is that there were 4. palps cut through 3 like butter,
and then got his ass royally handed to him. it just tells me that
mace was superior by leaps and bounds.

i think the scene means everything, because in that scene 3 jedi died in the blink of an eye. for whatever the reason, GL knew that he was making a scene about 3 jedi who get owned. he knew this. he consciously knew that he was making them look like they could not even TOUCH palpatine, and it came off accurate.

Oh no expression






























I still like my theory stick out tongue

Kraken
Originally posted by PVS
you know....when they put palpatine under arrest.
they went down like idiots...and this always annoyed me
since they are supposed to be among the best as far as jedi go.

but then i remember the scene where anakin, obiwan, and palpatine
are caught in the ray shields and obiwan gets confused and asks
why the hell they were being so stupid. "wait a minute...we're smarter than this!"

so, was that why they were so shitty?
was palpatine draining their wit through the dark side?

discuss

yes coarse.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by .messedpace Opera:.
yes.


that was a sweet comeback.

Umm... no. Not really.Originally posted by PVS
thats great, but he doesnt say that they got caught on purpose. all he says is that it was convenient that they got caught. the dialogue speaks quite the opposite, but i guess you've been watching it on mute all this time.

anakin: ray shields

obiwan: wait a minute....were smarter than this!!!

so ill decline on that humble pie, and offer you a icy cold glass of stfu beer

So, did you read what I posted, or just take what you wanted from it.



Lucas is quite plain:

"I like the idea of doing ray shields. I like the idea of these guys falling into a very simple trap, that you think is a trap, but then later on you realize that they wanna get palpatine, but they also wanna get rid of Grievous, and this is sort of the fastest way of getting there"


So, for you, what did you THINK: The Jedi walked into a ray shield trap, that was very simple, and Obi was surprised about it.

Later you REALIZE:????

Well according to GL, you ought to have realized that the ray shields weren't a trap.

They went down there on purpose, to get to Grievous (while towing Palps) in the fastest way, and they KNEW that going down that hall would activate the ray shields.

Just as Obi and Qui-gon KNEW that Padme was the Queen all along they said nothing and played along, Obi and Ani were playing along to Palps, so that he wouldn't know that they were jepordizing his safety to try to catch Grievous, when by all rights they should have just left.


Obi's WTF moment is acting.

Seriously, listen to the commentary, listen to GL's Exact Words and tone of voice, and then, and only then, tell me that the ray shields weren't on purpose.

Well, tell GL really.

Or, like you told a poster in another thread:

"i'm sorry, i dont have time to read all this, and its a shame, because
im sure you would have succeeded in convincing me that george lucas
is wrong about the plot he made up and described in detail.
thank god we have fanboys!"


smart

PVS
So, did you read what lucan said or just take what you wanted from it.



"I like the idea of doing ray shields. I like the idea of these guys falling into a very simple trap, that you think is a trap, but then later on you realize that they wanna get palpatine, but they also wanna get rid of Grievous, and this is sort of the fastest way of getting there"

nothing in that says that they were captured on purpose. he only says that it turns out to be very convenient. you're just grasping for straws and ignoring the obvious (dialogue of the film) to suit your little theory that is quite obviously wrong. obiwan and anakin clearly did not want to be captured when the ray shields appeared. its quite pathetic to dodge that.

so parrot that quote all you wish, because it means nothing.

Alliance
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Or, like you told a poster in another thread:

"i'm sorry, i dont have time to read all this, and its a shame, because
im sure you would have succeeded in convincing me that george lucas
is wrong about the plot he made up and described in detail.
thank god we have fanboys!"


smart
laughingSo, did you read what Lucas said or just take what you wanted from it.

Originally posted by PVS
nothing in that says that they were captured on purpose. he only says that it turns out to be very convenient. you're just grasping for straws and ignoring the obvious (dialogue of the film) to suit your little theory that is quite obviously wrong. obiwan and anakin clearly did not want to be captured when the ray shields appeared. its quite pathetic to dodge that.

I like the idea of doing ray shields. I like the idea of these guys falling into a very simple trap, that you think is a trap, but then later on you realize that they wanna get palpatine, but they also wanna get rid of Grievous, and this is sort of the fastest way of getting there

Please, you're so good at just hailing Lucas, you shoul have not porblem absorbing his words, which are inexorable clear here from your perspective.

You argue in one thread, that whatever Lucas says is unbreakable dogma, even when it reffers to abstact concepts. YOu argue here, that you opinion is superior to Lucas' (which you've made clear is impossible, iyo). Pick a side and stick with it.

PVS
Originally posted by Alliance
laughingSo, did you read what Lucas said or just take what you wanted from it.



I like the idea of doing ray shields. I like the idea of these guys falling into a very simple trap, that you think is a trap, but then later on you realize that they wanna get palpatine, but they also wanna get rid of Grievous, and this is sort of the fastest way of getting there

Please, you're so good at just hailing Lucas, you shoul have not porblem absorbing his words, which are inexorable clear here from your perspective.

You argue in one thread, that whatever Lucas says is unbreakable dogma, even when it reffers to abstact concepts. YOu argue here, that you opinion is superior to Lucas' (which you've made clear is impossible, iyo). Pick a side and stick with it.

i love how you boldface words in an attempt to change exactly what he said, which (paraphrased) is simply: you/we the audience see anakin captured by the sith and you/we the audience later realise that it was the best thing that could have happened"

you're just twisting his words to fit your contradiction of dialogue and its pretty lame. nothing in that quote says that anakin or kenobi expected or wanted to get caught, and the dialogue speaks the opposite obvious to the point of painful.

clue: the word "YOU" (audience) instead of THEY(characters). simple english. understand it, comprehend it, and realise that you're being ridiculously obtuse.

try actually reading the words you've been parroting. not for what you want it to mean, but for what it DOES mean.

SpyCspider
um....have to agree with PVS. And since the commentary was provided, it pretty much rests the case.

The commentary was directed at the audience. "YOU" means us, not Anakin or Obiwan.

Why would Obiwan act surprised when they got caught? There was nobody around to feint capture to...it was just Anakin and Obiwan and Palpatine. All this scene + the commentary concludes is that they got caught, but then WE realized afterwards "wait a min, this might have been a good thing afterall..." but it was never their intention to walk into a trap.

sithsaber408
You guys need to eat your Wheaties in the morning.

Then, go listen to the commentary, and take it in.

He says, " you THINK its a trap, you REALIZE it isn't".

Pretty cut and dried.

Alliance
Originally posted by sithsaber408
You guys need to eat your Wheaties in the morning.

Then, go listen to the commentary, and take it in.

He says, " you THINK its a trap, you REALIZE it isn't".

Pretty cut and dried.

big grin

SpyCspider
^wait u just changed the quote..... no expression

Alliance
Please explain how? confused

JediRobin23
I thought it was pretty kick ass to have Palpatine slaughter these nobody Jedi in seconds. Palpatine rules!

.:Space Opera:.
oh god, george was fukin talking about the Storyline in reference to "fastest way of getting there."

so was frickin obi wan being sarcastic during the wtf moment? you gotta give ewan more credit as an actor than that. they counted on R2 to come and release them, they never said that they counted on finding grevious by way of the ray shields. they were waiting on R2, not the gaurds bringing them to the bridge.

PVS
Originally posted by sithsaber408
You guys need to eat your Wheaties in the morning.

Then, go listen to the commentary, and take it in.

He says, " you THINK its a trap, you REALIZE it isn't".

Pretty cut and dried.

"SQUAWK!!! sithsaber wanna cracker SQUAWK!!!!"

key word= YOU/the audience. you can make "think" and "realize"
into giant 5000point letters and you're still blowing out horseshit...
just bigger chunks of it for all to see.

repeat a lie over and over again and it becomes the truth?
i feel like im in the GDF messed

Originally posted by .messedpace Opera:.
oh god, george was fukin talking about the Storyline in reference to "fastest way of getting there."
amazing the lack of common sense, isnt it?
its obvious to anyone with at least 2 brain cells to rub together,
however some 'unique snowflakes' insist on contradicting it. the quote is cut and dry, refers to the audience's pov and nothing of the characters, and for some reason its just far above the heads of some. then they go on to copy and paste the same quote and enlarge meaningless words while ignoring the key word which proves them dead wrong. this forum has gone to shit. its like a jerry's kids convention...but with nonsensical fanboys.

Alliance
PVS. get this straight.

1. YOU THE AUDIENCE THINKS ITS A TRAP. Ok?

2. THEN YOU, THE AUDIENCE, REALIZES IT ISNT. Why?

3. because falling into the trap was merely the fastest way to get to Grievous.

There's NO complexity to his statement. Lucas did not inted for the jedi to fall unintentionally into a trap. Whether you agree with his logic or his filming of it, thats a different story.

Get it? wink

PVS
Originally posted by Alliance
PVS. get this straight.

1. YOU THE AUDIENCE THINKS ITS A TRAP. Ok?

agreed...because it IS a trap

Originally posted by Alliance
2. THEN YOU, THE AUDIENCE, REALIZES IT ISNT.

disagreed and this is where your logic is half assed and delusional.
we dont realise it wasnt a trap. he said that the audience
realises that it was the quickest way to get there. ITS STILL A FRIKIN TRAP-and he says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to contradict that.
its a sad and weak tactic to twist his words.

this is just frikin idiotic and im not explaining this again.
if this is the finest in star wars debates here, then this forum is done
as far as i'm concerned.

SpyCspider
Originally posted by .messedpace Opera:.
oh god, george was fukin talking about the Storyline in reference to "fastest way of getting there."

so was frickin obi wan being sarcastic during the wtf moment? you gotta give ewan more credit as an actor than that. they counted on R2 to come and release them, they never said that they counted on finding grevious by way of the ray shields. they were waiting on R2, not the gaurds bringing them to the bridge.

yes, you would think people would remember his dialogue with Anakin about having "patience" and waiting for R2 to get them out of it. Too bad the next scene we see is R2 flying out after being kicked by those droids.

Are you trying to say they were acting sarcastic that entire time??? eek!

It was just CONVENIENT that they ended up right next to Grievous. god, this is so off-topic

PVS
Originally posted by SpyCspider
god, this is so off-topic

understatement of the year

sithsaber408
Originally posted by .messedpace Opera:.
oh god, george was fukin talking about the Storyline in reference to "fastest way of getting there."

so was frickin obi wan being sarcastic during the wtf moment? you gotta give ewan more credit as an actor than that. they counted on R2 to come and release them, they never said that they counted on finding grevious by way of the ray shields. they were waiting on R2, not the gaurds bringing them to the bridge.

Ewan does what George tells him to do, don't drag any feelings of Mcgregor love into this.

Yes, they were waiting for R2, so he could zap the droids WHEN THEY MET GREIVOUS.

Of course they would not say that they were waiting on the ray shields, that would tell Palps they cared less about his safety than about catching Greivous.Originally posted by PVS
"SQUAWK!!! sithsaber wanna cracker SQUAWK!!!!"

key word= YOU/the audience. you can make "think" and "realize"
into giant 5000point letters and you're still blowing out horseshit...
just bigger chunks of it for all to see.

repeat a lie over and over again and it becomes the truth?
i feel like im in the GDF messed


amazing the lack of common sense, isnt it?
its obvious to anyone with at least 2 brain cells to rub together,
however some 'unique snowflakes' insist on contradicting it. the quote is cut and dry, refers to the audience's pov and nothing of the characters, and for some reason its just far above the heads of some. then they go on to copy and paste the same quote and enlarge meaningless words while ignoring the key word which proves them dead wrong. this forum has gone to shit. its like a jerry's kids convention...but with nonsensical fanboys.

You're the one contributing to the nonsensical flogging of a dead horse here, turing the debate into shit.

You say that I focus on only 2 or 3 words in what GL said, whilst you only focus on ONE: the word "you."



Okay, bud lets do that....


"I like the idea of doing ray shields. I like the idea of these guys falling into a very simple trap, that you think is a trap, but then later on you realize that they wanna get palpatine, but they also wanna get rid of Grievous, and this is sort of the fastest way of getting there"


So George is talking to "YOU", meaning the audience, meaning you and I, right?


He says that WE (not obi and ani, according to you) think this is a trap, but later on WE realize that the mission on the Invisible Hand is about Palpatine, but that they don't want to leave without Grievous.

With me so far?

Then George says that THIS (being the "trap" of the ray shields) is the fastest way to get there.

So,....

He tells YOU (the audience) that it isn't what you think,

He tells YOU (the audience) that we should realize that capturing Greivous is just as important to Obi and Ani as saving Palpatine, so they're gonna go after him, and getting "stuck" in the ray shield is the fastest way of getting there...

(I'm also assuming safest, as they would have had to fight through several levels of droids and/or Magnaguards to reach him, WHILE also keeping Palps from getting shot)

so then you take from GL's statement.....

It was still a trap. They looked surprised. Obi went WTF.



Seems its YOU TWO who are taking the quote the wrong way, even by your own defintion.

He wanted YOU (the audience) to know that while you THINK its a trap, you REALIZE they want to get grevious, and the ray shields are faster and an easier way to get there,

But.....

It was still a trap. Obi went WTF.

I know, maybe Palps WAS using the darkside like saturday morning Sith cartoons to make them dumber.

Maybe thats why the were "caught" in the ray shields.

Maybe thats why the Jedi with Mace looked stupid.

Or maybe, that scene was orginally designed to have only close ups of Ian Mcdiarmid, with lots of digital head replacement on the sword double, and GL changed it on the day of shooting to show more of Ian's face.

(you can learn alot if you acutally PAY ATTENTION to what a dvd tells you.)

So that scene was to show Palps unleashing the darkside, which he had pent up for many years, to showcase his fury and speed, and show that by him WTFpwning 3 Jedi masters in about 3 seconds.

That is what happened there, it just doesn't come off right because of the way it's shot and the editing.



Just as this retarded thread is based off of one line "We're smarter than this." and doesn't come off right either.

.:Space Opera:.
omg over-post of the century. ^
|
|

:/

PVS
yeah, just a whole lot of nothing said, really.
maybe if he triples the length of that post he can
convince everyone that the sky is green and the grass is blue.

sithsaber408
Originally posted by .messedpace Opera:.
omg over-post of the century. ^
|
|

:/ Originally posted by PVS
yeah, just a whole lot of nothing said, really.
maybe if he triples the length of that post he can
convince everyone that the sky is green and the grass is blue.

The sound of defeat is rising.

I take it niether of you has even bothered to watch the scene with the commentary on either, have you?

PVS
Originally posted by sithsaber408
The sound of defeat is rising.

battlecry of the successful tireless rebutter.
"i parroted the same thing over and over till they stopped dignifying my nonesense...so by default i win teh thread " geek

sithsaber408
So you did watch it with the commentary then?

(attempting to stay on the relevant path of the topic at hand)

PVS
yes i saw it and you quoted on the money
but then again i never once implied that you misquoted erm


Originally posted by sithsaber408
"I like the idea of doing a rayshield,
translation: yippee
Originally posted by sithsaber408
and I like the idea of these guys falling into a very..simple trap,
translation: yippee, i like traps
Originally posted by sithsaber408
that you think is a trap,
translation: you, the viewer think its a trap, as opposed to: they the characters...as per the rules of the most basic grammar.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
but then later on you realize that they wanna get Palpatine,
translation: but then you the viewer as in the people i am addressing a.k.a. fellow commentator and audience later realise that it was very convenient that they got caught.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
but they also want to get rid of Grievous,
and this is sort of the fastest way to get there."

it is very convenient because they are brought to grievous. at no point did lucas imply willful capture.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
but then later on you realize that they wanna get Palpatine...

...and thats where you lose your battle. even IF lucas was referring to the characters by "you", (which he totally wasnt) then it would still be a poor deduction. then the meaning would be that they later find out it was the quickest way to get there. not when they were captured or even before they were captured, but after.

goodnight

SpyCspider
god this would be so much more clear if Lucas had actually said,

"I like the idea of doing ray shields. I like the idea of these guys falling into a very simple trap on purpose, because you think is a trap, but then later on you realize that they wanna get palpatine, but they also wanna get rid of Grievous, and this is sort of the fastest way of getting there" wink

I simply have a hard time believing that they planned ALL ALONG to get captured so R2 can go ballistic on Grievous's guards.

PVS
Originally posted by SpyCspider
god this would be so much more clear if Lucas had actually said,

"I like the idea of doing ray shields. I like the idea of these guys falling into a very simple trap on purpose, because you think is a trap, but then later on you realize that they wanna get palpatine, but they also wanna get rid of Grievous, and this is sort of the fastest way of getting there" wink

thats certainly what they dream of. if only many many posts on this thread could somehow warp our reality and alter the basic spoken rules of first-person and second-person. damn that pesky little hurdle. but he'll keep trying and you have to pity admire that.

SpyCspider
unfortunately, this specific debate will never be as popular as "was Sidious faking it?"

wait...maybe fortunately

PVS
i find it very difficult to believe that the connection i made was digging deep into anything. the whole saga revolves around that point.

the point is palpatine is a puppet master so powerful he made puppets of jedi. people debating his strength in a duel are wasting time, because his real strength is that he can get inside any jedi's head...except for mace and yoda when the cat was out of the bag....but they were puppets as well, they just were able to focus once they knew palpatine was the enemy.

even obiwan/anakin fell victim, how ever they were fortunate.
since it is fortunate how can anyone still refer to the ray shields as a trap? they ended up being escorted to the bridge and to GG. in retrospect then, it wasnt really a trap at all...as lucas said.

then the dialogue. "we're smarter than this!?!?!?" is carefully and artfully dodged by those who wish to offer an alternative star wars. where the force is a big scale, with jedi and sith as weights, and where obiwan and anakin like to pretend they were caught by accident on a rescue mission, to fool palpatine...beause they find it funny and so they can hear him say 'D'OH those little whipper snappers!!! damn kids!!!'

Darth Orcus
I really can't believe I spent precious seconds reading this turgid, immature squabble. What a load of pretentious bollocks. Just watch it; enjoy it and; forget it.

PVS
Originally posted by Darth Orcus
I really can't believe I spent precious seconds reading this turgid, immature squabble. What a load of pretentious bollocks. Just watch it; enjoy it and; forget it.

its so inspiring when the "above it all" member comes in to let us all know how above it all they really are...it really makes me want to be a better person...yet for some reason they're always just low enough to post in such a turgid and immature thread. confused

Darth Vious
Originally posted by PVS
you honestly convinced yourself that kit put up a good fight?
I'd say that Kit put up a better fight than the other two, but, the plot required that he went down, so that's what happened, although he wasn't taken down quite as easily as the other two. In all honesty, I think Mace took the best Jedi who were around (most of the others were leading campains across the galaxy, so his options were numbered) Had he gone in with Ki-Adi Mundi, Aayla Secura and Quinlan Vos as his backup, he might have succeeded in his attempt to arrest Palpatine (had the plot not required Palpatine to evade arrest) To be honest, I find it laughable that Palpatine was able to take down three Jedi Masters, when his style of fencing was so predictable and readable, but as mentioned, it was most likely the Dark Side preventing the lesser Jedi from reading his intentions.

Escape81
No. Palpatine was simply better than the three who came with Mace, not that he was clouding their thoughts.

Though I agree. McDiarmid is a crappy swordsman. His fight with Sam Jackson was so slow (on both parts)

sithsaber408
Originally posted by PVS
i love how you boldface words in an attempt to change exactly what he said, which (paraphrased) is simply: you/we the audience see anakin captured by the sith and you/we the audience later realise that it was the best thing that could have happened"

you're just twisting his words to fit your contradiction of dialogue and its pretty lame. nothing in that quote says that anakin or kenobi expected or wanted to get caught, and the dialogue speaks the opposite obvious to the point of painful.

clue: the word "YOU" (audience) instead of THEY(characters). simple english. understand it, comprehend it, and realise that you're being ridiculously obtuse.



Actually, I listened to it again recently, and if you listen to his tone of voice, he is indeed talking about ani and obi.

"I like the idea of doing ray shields. I like the idea of these guys falling into a very simple trap, that you think is a trap, but then later on you realize that they wanna get palpatine, but they also wanna get rid of Grievous, and this is sort of the fastest way of getting there"

He IS talking about the audience when he says: "You think its a trap" and when he says "you realize", but its the CHARACTERS that want to get Grievous and do so as quickly as possible.


Plus, as a side note, GL in the commetaries is very plain about filling plot holes if thats what happened. In ANH: "We got the Millenium Falcon in the death star, but needed to get it out in a hurry, so we just had them back out and turn around." Or in ROTJ: "Originally when we got to this point in the script, it was about Luke, Vader, and the Emporer, and also about a primitive society defeating a technilogical society. Which was meant to be the Wookies. I added all the stuff about Jabba and going back to Tatooine for the first quarter of the movie"..... and so on and so forth.

There are many more instances of this in his commentaries, which I could find and post if you like.

It just interesting to me that he didn't say: "Now that we'd had Anakin and Obi-wan rescue the Chancellor, I still wanted some action with Greivous, as sort of a set-up for the Obi-wan fight later, but I didn't want to have a long sequence of them fighting through droids or traps or anything, becuase with Palpatine needing protecting it wouldn't be as believeable, and would take too long. So I came up with this little idea of the ray shields, as a fast way to get them to Greivous.... and also to prove PVS point that I had Palpatine literally dumbing down the Jedi in these films."


But he didn't say that did he?

No, he said:


"I like the idea of doing ray shields. I like the idea of these guys falling into a very simple trap, that you think is a trap, but then later on you realize that they wanna get palpatine, but they also wanna get rid of Grievous, and this is sort of the fastest way of getting there"

PVS
thats sure a whole lot of typing for nothing new said.
please stop wasting my time trying to twist george lucas'
words from what they said to what you want them to say.
its getting old.

as i said, and i will say again and again, george only implied that
the characters benefitted from being captured, so we think its a trap
but really the battle droids are helping them achieve their goal. he
doesnt say that they were captured on purpose. but keep repeating
his quote and maybe the meaning will change erm

really, if you have nothing new to add, and have no evidence whatsoever
to support your misinformed claim, then leave it alone. your continued
rambling only further exhibits your desperation.

jaden101
laughing out loud laughing laughing out loud ...this really is begging for the question

who is ray shields?

and a quick google images search reveals

http://www.dmaudit.com/images/Ray.jpg

PVS
sick

Akira99
I think Mace's posse were not meant to look stupid. I reckon Lucas just made a very bad attempt in showing how powerful Palps was is all.
What it seems was meant to happen - and did was:
Mace an upper level jedi with very high ranking swordsmanship and 3 moderate level jedi who were experienced prepare themselves for Palp's move though they are still unsure he is who Ani said he is
Palps when he sees who he is up against knows he needs to strike down the 3 moderate jedi and then fight Mace for whatever purpose
Palps launches himself in a lightning fast flurry while unleashing a dark side powered snarl to cloud the already slightly confused moderate jedi and immediately cut them down before they had time to blink - the speed of light basically and then finish Mace off last who in that one second is now prepared to fight!
Now this could have been pulled off well only Ian McDiarmid is not really built for such effects but that bit didn't matter . The main mistake was him pulling that stance where he pulls back his lightsaber. He should have just cut them down from the moment he landed in front of them. And it should have been just fast enough so that it actually looked convincing how fast Palps was.
Thats what I grasped after watching it a few times.
A doubt the age group it was aimed at really minded. I'd imagine they were more annoyed by the shortness of the duel itself

The 3 moderate jedi were not stupid to come imo as they were going to die anyway during the purge. So it was just the bad choreography of fight that made them look stupid - and I think it did. But it could be either way for Mace. He, Palps and Ani and their choices and decisions make the question of whether Mace was stupid to come a difficult one indeed. And I don't think he looked stupid - he was seeing what he was up against.

Darth Chronos
The first kill was the most stupid one, i mean that jedi saw Palpatine preparing himself for a thrust in the chest, yet he stood there like a statue!

lord_radar1
You guys are both getting worked up for no reason. The fact of the matter is both theories about the ray sheild "trap" are plausible and even possible. GL has always been cryptic about his movies and this is no different here in this statement. Honestly, you could argue this to death but there is too much room for interpretation, so interpret how you want and enjoy the movies for what they are, movies. Creating an entire universe could not possibley be an easy task and there are bound to be inconsistencies inherently throughout the project. (look at the Platypus or the Yugo for instance.) Suspension of disbelief this stuff is made up entirely from the minds of GL and co., none of it is fact.

Tangible God
GL didn't create a universe, only a galaxy, and I thinks that's why we're a little ticked that he skimped on so many obvious things.

lord_radar1
I wouldn't call this particular subject an obvious detail. It has subtlties to it that make it very open for the viewer to interpret as he sees fit including GL's statement regarding the scene. Enjoy the movies.

Darth Subjekt
Hey PVS, did you ever find out about Palps' face? I've been gone for awhile and didnt know if if it was ever cleared up officially. But just in case, i read this in the databank:

The Jedi eventually discovered Palpatine's Sith leanings and confronted the Chancellor. Sidious lashed out with blinding speed, brandishing a previously hidden lightsaber blade in a sudden strike that killed all of the Jedi Masters Mace Windu had assembled to arrest the Chancellor. With Anakin Skywalker's help, Sidious was able to defeat Mace, though he was severely scarred by the reflected power of his dark side lightning. To conceal his disfigured visage, Sidious returned to his simple Sith robes.

that also tells us that Mace had him beat by himself, since he needed "anakin's help"...

if you all already knew this...feel free to flame smile

PVS
i think it was settled that he was deformed by the lightning.

Darth Subjekt
ok...like i said i didnt know if everyone agreed finally or if someone else found that passage, just thought i'd mention it just in case, ya know...

Alliance
Originally posted by PVS
i think it was settled that he was deformed by the lightning.

Old men are particularly succeptible to force lightning. They tend to melt.

queeq
Like green women do with water.

Alliance
Oh Elphaba.

PVS
or william shatner

queeq
Originally posted by Alliance
Oh Elphaba.

Aha.... a fellow Wicked-fan.

Alliance
You cant deny good art.

queeq
Amen to that.

Alliance
Amun?

queeq
Amon.

Alliance
Ra-Amon?

queeq
No, Amon-Ra.

PVS
request for thread title change:

"are queeq and alliance supposed to look stupid"

Council#13
No, they're supposed to look like lovers ermm Listen to this: The Queeq Alliance. They're perfect for each other! happy



































dodgy

queeq
I PROTEST!!!! mad We are NOT, I repeat NOT, supposed to look stupid!!!! mad





















































we ARE stupid... wink

Alliance
winky winky.

This forum is practically a graveyard anyway...and were just the two blokes out to have wooden swordfights among the crumbing tombtones!dodgy

Council#13
You two are the Queeq Alliance! happy How cute no expression

queeq
Well, what else to do.

Alliance
Masturbate.

queeq
No thank you.

Alliance
dodgy

queeq
Alliance does... oopssss...

Alliance
perv.

queeq
You are indeed.

Alliance
Don't try to turn this around....your name is queeq. dodgy

queeq
And damn proud of it, too.... the name that is.

Alliance
qeeuq

queeq
Hey, it works.

Alliance
almost.

queeq
Of course

PVS
you two need to get a room

queeq
No thanks..

PVS
dont run away from your feelings

queeq
If I didn't, I wouldn't get any exercise.

Alliance
erm

queeq
Whaaaat?

Alliance
Exercise is good for you.

queeq
Exactly.

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