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So, I saw the first LOTR movie, and they explained how there were other rings. Do we know if these rings do anything, or have special powers?

yes they all comanded the same power as the "one" only to a lesser extent, there obvious powers included giving a certain power over people to the wearers and highetend intellect.

hope that answers your question.

Narya of couse did have power, but in no way, does the quote suggest that it helped defeat the Balrog. There is no reference of Narya giving Gandalf (a wizard.....a Maia) power to defeat another Maiar.

I might be wrong, but someone fill me in if i am

Many of the Rings the dwarves were given were lost. Devoured by dragons some believe. Those given to Men turned them into the Ringwraiths. The Elves managed to keep theirs and like you said the Ring of Fire was given to Gandalf the Grey.

The Ring of Fire could have helped Gandalf in his battle against the Balrog. After all there really isn't anything in the novels that gives you a clear view of what happened. All we know is that both Gandalf and the Balrog died but Gandalf returned as Gandalf the White.

i was just reading these so i could find out more...



but wow







IT'S EXA!

Originally posted by DanielLB
Narya of couse did have power, but in no way, does the quote suggest that it helped defeat the Balrog. There is no reference of Narya giving Gandalf (a wizard.....a Maia) power to defeat another Maiar.

I might be wrong, but someone fill me in if i am

well it doesn't say "hey this ring I'm wearing gives me the power to kick your but..." I t is a good guess tough. what else could, the secret fire, the flame of arnor be? elrond galadriel and gandalf are all hiding their ring from sauron, the secret fire.

and by the way I can't find anything saying that the isdari, the balrogs, the dragons and so on.. are maiar. yes I know wikipedia says so... where did they find that. I can't remember silmarillion saying anything about that... but it's been a while sense I read it.

then we know. thank you

Originally posted by thefallen544
Race: Wielded by Gandalf, a Maia
Pronunciation: 'Anor' is pronounced ah'nor
Meaning: 'Anor' is literally the Sun

Alternatively, it has been suggested that Gandalf is referring here to Narya, the Ring of Fire that he bore. This idea certainly fits with the notion that he was the 'wielder' of the Ring, and that it had a fiery character. However, it seems highly unlikely that Gandalf would want to reveal his ownership of a Ring of Power - a matter of utmost secrecy - to one of his greatest enemies.



It's a good way to scare your enemy, and sauron is not in control of the balrogs. so it wouldn't matter much if he was about to kill the balrog anyway...

Aye yes Saurman, I did say this but deleted it from my reply before posting, I didn't have the nessecary quote to back me up so rather than state it I left it out (Especially since it may give evolution to the question "why didn't he tell Sauron?" as for why he didn't I assume his own greed for the rings power would prevent him from telling everything).

Saurman apparently saw Cirdan giving the ring to Gandalf and thus his jelousy began. Apparently he also experimented in making his own magic rings but if he had any success is unknown to me, I know he wore a ring of some such.
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I'm actually quite interested in the story of the forging of the rings by Celebrimbor and the Elven Smiths and their ultimate betrayal, I shall indeed be re-reading certain areas now.

I don't think that Tolkien put anything in his books that were just "conincidence". If Gandalf fought the Balrog and specificly mentioned fire and since we KNOW Gandalf wore the Ring of Narya then that was a specific link I am sure. As Exa said the elven rings had mainly protective powers so I am sure that Gandalf's ring gave him at least a small level of protection against the Balrog's "fire".

I do have to say.... Exa! Long time no see!

I don't think Gandalf would dare use the Ring of Fire because it's will is still bound to the One Ring.

I think it refers to more or less that Gandalf is a servant to the Valar.

As one of the three elven rings it would be *not* bound to the will of the ring, me was thinking?

No the Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age said that the Elven Rings of Power were never touched by Sauron but like all the Rings of Power it was still bound to the One Ring

I sort of don't see the reason...

Well the books never go into detail on how Gandalf defeated the Balrog (which ended in the death of Gandalf). He could have kept his distance for all we know but most likely he was able to slay the beast could have something to do with Gandalf being a Maia spirit and all. After all they are from the same Order and we don't know what Gandalf actually looks like. He came to Middle-Earth and resembled an old man but his true form was never revealed through the book.

True, the only reference I can find to Olorin's treue appearance is a passage in "Unfinished Tales" page 508 in my copy regarding The Istari

"Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin? And Olorin who was clad in grey"

Furthermore as a bonus it points at the start of Saurman's (Curumo) possible jelousy of Gandalf. "and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word 'third'). But at that Varda looked up and said: 'Not as the third'; and Curumo remembered it.

Yeah but the Unfinished Tales ain't really canon considering Tolkien abandoned them because he didn't like them or for one reason or another.

True, its not canon per se. But it shines a light on at least his thoughts on certain situations and due to the lack of any other information I am willing to accept it, up to a point.

Well that is the only information we go have; we can only wonder what the Wizards looked like before coming to Middle-Earth.

The Silmirallion answers that

where????

"Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" 'None knew at that time whence they were, save Cirdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West to contest the power of Sauron, if he should rise again'

We can also assume that he looks like a man, and men do not live for as long as Gandalf has. Mention of the Istari has been made during counsel with Elrond and the White Council well before the ring was even found when at first Saurons shadow started to grow.

Seeing as Aragorn died aged 210 and that was exceptionally long for a mortal man to live (the eldest mortal man living until 500 was Elros brother of Elrond who chose to be mortal rather than the first born) just taking this into account the Istari cannot be mortal. This leaves two choices either they are Elf kind or they are Maiar clothed in the bodies of men.

Indeed the fact that Gandalf is able to return from death points to the involvement of the Lords of the West or maybe even Eru himself *I believe it may have to be direct involvement from Eru whom Gandalf met outside the circles of the earth I think only Eru can give life and gift upon it free will etc* Whilst Elves are meant to be released from the halls of waiting after death such a swift return is unlikely. However as a Maiar servant of the Valar chances are Gandalf could be returned in times of such need.

Also in Appendix B the Istari are mentioned in c 1100 of the third age they find an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldor.
In 2050 King Earnur is challenged by the witch king is lost and rule of Gondor passes over to the Stewards. In the year 2890 Bilbo is born in the Shire. September 29th 3021 Gandalf departs over the sea and the third age ends.

Sorry for double post edit limit expired and I think this is relevant and important.

well only because we don't know really doesn't make him maiar, and as i said, I don't really trust wikipedia or EoA. There must be more creatures in arda then is told in the books.

there are more examples where the gods have decided other peoples faiths. for example elrond and elros. they chose their race. elrond became elfkind and elros human. this does'nt make them maiar.

if isdari, the balrogs, the dragons and so on were maiar, they would be able to use certain powers, for example change shapes. none of them does so.

and your last post, how does it make isdari maiar?

Men do not live 2000 years, and Gandalf was not of Elf kind. Plus the fact that Cirdan of the havens greeted them when they crossed the sea from the western land and knew them to be sent by the lords of the west. Yes the gods allowed Elrond and Elros to chose their fate, because of the sacrifice their parents made Earendil and Elwing, both of whom had the same fate to chose be of the firstborn and never leave the undying lands or be of mortal born and die.

I can hardly hold such a choice in the same light as Gandalf dying and being sent back from the dead by Eru himself. And why would Balrogs or and Maiar be able to change their shape freely, the Istari were under orders not to use the full extent of their power so they came clothed in the bodies of old men, they didn't chop and change at will.

Rather than content the point of my argument, please and I mean this in no ill tone state your argument for the Istari not being Maiar, one could argue that they are "other creatures" all day but without any proof it is just speculation. Whilst we have proof that Maiar and Valar existed, we have their names we have Gandalfs name as a spirit of the Maiar "Olorin" if we wish to draw specifics. By sheer volume of "evidence" alone it supports the view they were Maiar over some other unknown nameless entity.

A further quote from "Unfinished Tales" admittedly some of the tales from this book are incomplete but still canon and writted by Tolkein and edited by Christopher Tolkein.

"and they were held to be of the Elven-race (with whom, indeed, the often consorted). Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West"

"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years"

"For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly"

"Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-Earth. But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word "third". But at that Varda looked up and said: 'Not as the third'; and Curumo remembered it"

"The note ends with the statement Curumo took Aiwendil because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend. "

Tge chapter also draws relations between Maiar and Valar quoting Olorin to Manwe and Varda.

And the last quotes atop of page 510 on my version, "We must assume that they were all Maiar, that is persons of the 'angelic' order, though not necessarily of the same rank. The Maiar were 'spirits', but capable of self-incarnation, and could take 'humane' (especially Elvish) forms."

"Other writings are concerned exclusively with Gandalf (Olorin, Mithrandir)."
"Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf "

One more note Gandalf said again 'Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten' when he spoke to the Hobbits and Gimli in Minas Tirith after the coronation of King Elessar: see 'The Quest of Erebor',p. 426 (my version) of Unfinished Tales.

I should also say a speech by Faramir on page 433 in my version of The Two Towers "'and he was content. Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.'"

Originally posted by Draugwen
As one of the three elven rings it would be *not* bound to the will of the ring, me was thinking?
it specifically states that the elvish rings were never tainted

Specifically Gandalf says "wielder of the flame of anor" Anor being the Elvish word for sun and the sun being made from the light of one of the two trees in Valinor. And yes, the Elven rings were never touched by the hand of Sauron however Sauron was aware of their existence, and he made the one ring to rule ALL rings of power including the elven ones. Whilst Sauron held the one ring the Elven peoples could not wear their rings of power.

The reason that the Elves found out about Sauron's one ring was that when he put the one ring upon his finger the Elves sensed him through their untainted rings and took them off. After Saurons ultimate defeat and the destruction of the ruling rings the Elven rings lost their power and all that was made and maintained with that power started to fade.
I can find quotes if need be.