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Historical Fact or Historical Fiction?

I am stating a hypothetical for the sake of generating interesting discussion. It is not my belief, but it is an interesting thought, I think Please don't get all feminist and attack me about this, it is actually a more feminist attitude than the current one that says all the women throughout history up until recently were not intelligent, and that it took women thousands of years to gain basic rights

Assumptions:

1) Women are intelligent, and have always been intelligent. I think we can agree that women are very often more intelligent than most men.

2) Women understand the aspects of being a woman that make them valuable, and have understood these things since the beginning.

3) Women often are more than slightly capable at manipulating men into doing anything they want us to do, and again this has existed forever.

4) Women have always understood intrigue and politics better than they let on, throughout history.

Hypothesis:

Now, given our assumptions, we will reinterpret the state of women through history including the past century or so.

At some point in the ever distant history women were also hunters (and probably survived more frequently than men.) At some point following this women stopped being hunters. Why did they stop? Because they found that if they crooned over some dumb caveman's hunting prowess the stupid man would do it, and they wouldn't have to risk their lives to get meat.

Thus mating for longer periods of time, and to an individual man began to be a good idea. Why was it a good idea? Easy, if you told a man you liked him long enough you could eventually tell him to do anything, given proper phrasing of the desired act. If you told some other dumb caveman he was great you would undermine the brainwashing you had been doing to your main man, so one man was a good idea.

So women did most the rest of the work, men just killed big dangerous animals and brought it back to the waiting woman. Women thought about this, and decided "Hey, why not get him to do everything that I don't really enjoy doing?" So they, the women, start slowly getting men to do more. Now the men are gutting and cleaning their kills before bringing them home. Suddenly men start doing the gathering of fruits, and farming. Women were smart, they had reduced men to little more than trained beasts of burden.

Some men started thinking that women should be doing more, that they should work outside the home as well. So women described the work necessary around the home, and explained to the men that they did not like to do this work, that it was demeaning. They utterly convinced men that the gender roles were his idea, that he forced her to stay at home, she would love to go work outside the home, but she had to stay and do the household work. So now she was able to stay at home, and do all the work she needed to at home without having to travel to a place of work.

Then over time women forgot their intelligent, cunning, plan. Eventually women decided that it really was men that forced them into this state. They forgot that life really sucks, and it is awful nice to work in the home compared to outside the home. And so, in less than a century, women undid the careful work their predecessors had done.

well im stronger than my gf but she always makes me do stuff with emotional blackmail and i done it to her and she ended it up working out for her WOMEN GRRRRRR

too much writing to read, but



Do you believe that God is a she?

some women are like lionesses

Originally posted by Regret
Assumptions:
1) Women are intelligent, and have always been intelligent. I think we can agree that women are very often more intelligent than most men.
2) Women understand the aspects of being a woman that make them valuable, and have understood these things since the beginning.
3) Women often are more than slightly capable at manipulating men into doing anything they want us to do, and again this has existed forever.
4) Women have always understood intrigue and politics better than they let on, throughout history.

Hypothesis:
5. At some point in the ever distant history women were also hunters (and probably survived more frequently than men.) At some point following this women stopped being hunters. Why did they stop? Because they found that if they crooned over some dumb caveman's hunting prowess the stupid man would do it, and they wouldn't have to risk their lives to get meat.
6. Thus mating for longer periods of time, and to an individual man began to be a good idea. Why was it a good idea? Easy, if you told a man you liked him long enough you could eventually tell him to do anything, given proper phrasing of the desired act. If you told some other dumb caveman he was great you would undermine the brainwashing you had been doing to your main man, so one man was a good idea.
7. So women did most the rest of the work, men just killed big dangerous animals and brought it back to the waiting woman. Women thought about this, and decided "Hey, why not get him to do everything that I don't really enjoy doing?" So they, the women, start slowly getting men to do more. Now the men are gutting and cleaning their kills before bringing them home. Suddenly men start doing the gathering of fruits, and farming. Women were smart, they had reduced men to little more than trained beasts of burden.
8. Some men started thinking that women should be doing more, that they should work outside the home as well. So women described the work necessary around the home, and explained to the men that they did not like to do this work, that it was demeaning. They utterly convinced men that the gender roles were his idea, that he forced her to stay at home, she would love to go work outside the home, but she had to stay and do the household work. So now she was able to stay at home, and do all the work she needed to at home without having to travel to a place of work.
9. Then over time women forgot their intelligent, cunning, plan. Eventually women decided that it really was men that forced them into this state. They forgot that life really sucks, and it is awful nice to work in the home compared to outside the home. And so, in less than a century, women undid the careful work their predecessors had done.

Many of your assumptions are iffy (which is good that you presented them as assumptions). Some of your hypotheses also seem to be more assumption than testable statement.

Regardless, your overall position seems to be this: throughout history, the Smart Scheming Woman (SSW) has manipulated the Big Dumb Man (BDM) into doing what she wants, the BDM having no clue about this and just lumbering along his merry way. The SSW got so good at this that, eventually, she screwed herself over.

Sounds like a soap opera. IMO, men and women are both smarter, more caring about each other and more cooperative than your assumptions present. Your assumptions also seem to be more reflective (again, as you stated) of perhaps the last 30-40 years, in lieu of "feminism" and our hypercompetitive, everyone-out-for-themselves society.

Forgive me if, in my brevity, I've oversimplified. But I didn't want to write as much.

Men and Women have their strong qualities as well as weak.........It's just a gift each sex seems to have more of then the other........I believe that women have a knacked for getting her way much of the time with that little "eye batting"..... .........But not all guys fall for it......

Women in history had very predominate positions in Pagan belief systems, which the Church turned around and made everything associated with them evil...........

Originally posted by Mindship
Many of your assumptions are iffy (which is good that you presented them as assumptions). Some of your hypotheses also seem to be more assumption than testable statement.

Regardless, your overall position seems to be this: throughout history, the Smart Scheming Woman (SSW) has manipulated the Big Dumb Man (BDM) into doing what she wants, the BDM having no clue about this and just lumbering along his merry way. The SSW got so good at this that, eventually, she screwed herself over.

Sounds like a soap opera. IMO, men and women are both smarter, more caring about each other and more cooperative than your assumptions present. Your assumptions also seem to be more reflective (again, as you stated) of perhaps the last 30-40 years, in lieu of "feminism" and our hypercompetitive, everyone-out-for-themselves society.

Forgive me if, in my brevity, I've oversimplified. But I didn't want to write as much.

No, you have not oversimplified And really, your summarization is what I was stating The exercise was not meant to be taken as fact, or even evidence based. Between yourself and Omega I believe the purpose of this thread is being taken the way I meant it to be. Although it did seem that Omega took me too literally and responded with more fact and science than I had intended. This is merely a philosophical exercise in possibility, not an attack on the scientific fact that does exist. The discussion as I saw it should have been lighter than Omega's and more along the lines of your post.

Well, I'm gonna throw a blind thought into the discussion. Quite frankly when I read any feminist propaganda I just turn off the switch and let them believe whatever the hell they think...."I'm a woman hear me roar....blah..blah..blah.."

Anyways, female hunters? absolutely I agree they could have existed...not all females were mommies cleaning the hut and washing the garments...some of them were probally orphans or even self indenpendants. OR they were cast out of the tribe and had to depend on themselves for survival. For that same reason I believe there were female warriors fightin along side with the male warriors. Did they get much recognizition as the males? That's were I think females were excluded from history texts. Sure! we've had a fair share of quite a few female warriors in history...but I don't think those were the only ones. There must have been many MANY females that fought for causes and their names were not included.

As for the idea that women are not as strong as males....I just don't subscribe to that...for a simple fact...birth...I never given birth to a child nor can I even experience such a thing. But from what I've seen women can take the pain...and is very tough pain from what I've seen. There is no way I could possibly tolerate that pain....as a male...I don't think I can.

You guys are forgetting that not all women are the same, as not all men are the same.

Some men are stronger than women, some women are stronger than men. Some women are better parents than men, and some men are better parents than women.

Some men are more hateful than women, while some women are more hateful than men...and so on and so on.

Every individual is different, and thier gender only plays a fraction of a role in thier being.

Gender is a socialy constructed idea based on sex.

Male and female having these fundamental differances are again, socially constructed. The belief that one is superiour to another based on their sex is so utterly ridiculous once one begins to think about it.

How can your reproductive organ determine your intelligance and your capcacity?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You guys are forgetting that not all women are the same, as not all men are the same.

Some men are stronger than women, some women are stronger than men. Some women are better parents than men, and some men are better parents than women.

Some men are more hateful than women, while some women are more hateful than men...and so on and so on.

Every individual is different, and thier gender only plays a fraction of a role in thier being.

Absolutely.

Hell hath no fury, like a woman scorned.

Although in the human sense at least, the male side is larger and sometimes more muscular in most cases and the female side is smaller, and weaker, that is the stereotypical view but still men fear a woman's wrath like nothing else, when they are angry they are angry its something that no one likes, we burn their supposed power over us by eliminating their possible involvement with politics, we create supperstitions such as it is bad luck to have a woman aboard a ship so that the men on the ship dont have to deal with the woman, who wont like the way they live, and will try to change that, which the men will not like and so the fire burns from there, but men fear women, as women fear men, women can twist the minds of the men manipulation, which sometimes doesnt work and those who abuse their wives manipulate through force, it is the same basic ideal, we are equal with two opposite forces, the stereotypical man will be strong and demanding, while the stereotypical woman will be quick and decisive, while the man will spend his time doing the more physical, the woman will tend to the children and will cook and clean, which they will both complain about doing and will insist that the other do some of the others "job" and so the anger ensues, weve also made sayings and such, for example the quote above, to warn men not to anger a woman.

I've always found that statement exceedingly sexist.

Its warning men to stay on top and in control. The only thing the average man fears about women is not getting some, imo.

And its always seems to be muttered by cocky old white farts....why is that?

No, idea.

And the "Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned" is probably invented by some idiot man, who was a total coward and just didn't tell the truth.

What about the hell that breaks loose when you scorn a man??? Seriously...

So maybe the sentence should be
"Hell hath no fury like SOME PEOPLE scorned"?

Absolutely.........Ever seen a man scorned???? Not a pretty sight.

People don't liked being scorened.

yes, women were suppressed and treated as lesser beings. Not anymore and most are handling it pretty well. Let's ask a random american girl flashing her boobs or that girl there who participated in the bikini contest (yes, I watched oprah) on why they did it..
The random girl: "Because it's fun!!!!"

Although male and female brains are completely the same and have the same capabilities of expanding, some people just refuse to. And why not! If you are simple enough to gain a feeling of satisfaction in showing your body and getting attention for it or by watching simple games of sports on television wich hold nothing of value or interest except for wich of two teams win each time it's aired then why would you want to be different?!!
It's great if you are so easily amused or satisfied. The whole world should be like this!! THIS IS UTOPIA!!!

Hmm.. I think I strayed off topic again.. Oh well, I'm bored and I have the elusion that I have a world wide audience.

Oh don't forget women at a council of men in the 300's ad were voted to having a soul...........

What the hell? Is that true?
They probably used to believe that only men possessed souls (penis) and that women had to try their best to claim one because they just had a hole in their soul and they needed a savior!
Pretty romantic!

Originally posted by debbiejo
Oh don't forget women at a council of men in the 300's ad were voted to having a soul...........

Wow. I still don't believe thats true.

Its nice to know that women have been taking steps toward equality in male dominated societies for quite a while now.

Well WE GOT VOTED A SOUL!!!!

Yeah. see, sexism doesnt exist

Woman and Man are two complementary entities intelligent or not. They can not survive one without the other. The Whatever Superior intelligence that created us. had some kind of sense of humor: " fooling us into thinking that we may be so different from each other. and to think that one gender is far more superior than the other. And getting us to bash each other to death based on our perceived physiological differences. only to realize at the end that we can not survive as a specie as only one gender without the other.


It was done that way by the superior intelligence (if you like to call it 'GOD' that is fine too) to see how intelligent we( ITS creatures) could ever become to realise that the FUNDAMENTALS of anything are way more important than its SUPERFICIALS. And that this applies to humans also.

Sadly we have been in existence as a specie for million years and we have not yet been able to truly understand that the Fundamentals are way More important than the Superficials. And that proves that our intelligence is not developed enough yet to move to a higher dimension of TRUE UNDERSTANDING.

Now! how intelligent that makes all of us feel?( Women or Men)

Intelligence is not a Static. Intelligence Is VERY DYNAMIC. And would we ever be able to make it to a higher DIMENSION of UNDERSTANDING.

Originally posted by Regret


3) Women often are more than slightly capable at manipulating men into doing anything they want us to do, and again this has existed forever.

4) Women have always understood intrigue and politics better than they let on, throughout history.

Are you seriously suggesting that women were secretly manipulating men over the past couple thousand years?

Women should stay supressed....I need dinner when I get home. They're not intelligent enough to knwo what opression is anyway.

Honestly, one of the theories about women as "lesser" beings was this.

Women are not intelligent enough to have the mental capacity to conceptualize business, poilitics, or philosophy. Yet, it appeas they are just advanced enough to demonstrate love.

Doesnt that just make your machoistic little self all warm and fuzzy! Women are clueless, but they always like a good f**k! Seriously...you wonder where modern perceptions of women come from.

Originally posted by Alliance
Women should stay supressed....I need dinner when I get home. They're not intelligent enough to knwo what opression is anyway.

.

Women were not oppressed really. But I can tell you this MEN were oppressed MUCH more than women were by OTHER men!
Visit this site for a full explanation .
http://www.angryharry.com/eswerewomenoppressedinthewest.htm

This is a fairly generalized question and my generalized answer would be yes. Women have been "suppressed" though I'm not exactly sure the wording works.

There are stupid men and stupid women, in past centuries and even decades and even still today many times men get the benefit of the doubt .... but most of the radical feminist rhetoric is blah so I'll have to stick with my generalizations. YEs

women have been treated far worse than they deserved in the past. its nothing to laugh about either or speculate about. they have until very recently and in very small populations of the world suffered much much more than men.

it seems to have become a fashion/trend these days to bash feminists and feminism in general even though if you look at what most of them are saying with a completely unbiased waypoint{which many men think they have but very VERY few actually do, most men who support them genuinly are homosexuals and are sumwhat biased against men} most of what they say or ask for is true and just. i suppose men find a certain satistfaction in being sceptical and SMART so that they can see th flaws in what most dum women believe to be struggle for their rights, needless to say thats stupid. im not gonna say that all feminists have the best intentions of women on their mind, some dont in very developed countries but what they ask for and say even if for an agenda has more truth and righteousness than the contrary. just think about it calmly.

personally i think people should be bashing rappers who make women seem like sex slaves more than a feminist who although not completely sincere will practically lessen the gap between male and female positions in public.

I think true feminists who truly wanted equality with men did exist in the 60s and 70s but now I see that feminism is MOSTLY about one thing that has been VERY successful no matter what way you look at it. To stir up hatred of "men" and the patriarchy. Feminists in the UK have no interest in the well-being of children they just want to use their programs to demonise men. There are very few TRUE feminist left. Where I come from there was survey saying 50% of all women feel they should be allowed to beat their husbands. Boppit jokes are everywhere you look.
As for women being oppressed in the generation preceding ours it has been greatly exaggerated. I am NOT AT ALL saying women were NOT oppessed because they were but they were not NEARLY as oppressed as men by OTHER men! In the World Wars the Generals used to order hundreds of infantry men to charge up the hills just to find out where enemie's weaknesses lay. There was no hope or intention that any of these soldiers would survive or be rescued. Their lives were simply expended in order to provide the General with some information that he was keen to have. It must have been simple awful for the poor soldiers who have returned in psychologically damaged states to discover that their girlfriends had cheated on them while they were away or that they had to return in such a condition that they could never get a woman or have a family.
Of course all this is conveniently forgotten especially by feminists who continue to complain about how 'oppressed' the women were. Sure they were oppressed but against the men who had to continue to live in a premanently handicapped state for the rest of their lives I feel a great deal of anger towards them.
I suppose women were oppressed most of all when Titanic sunk and men were instantly made the lowest class citizens because of chivalry.
I could go like this for hours but theres just too much to say...
Yes I did get these sources from Angry Harry's website. I like him am very worried because the Men's Movement IS coming and it is unstoppable! When it does I fear for feminists. I really do. They can't stop it but they can certainly reduce the backlash a little by brining their demoinisation of men and their viewpoint to a halt and becoming TRUE feminists. The best way they can reduce the sheer power of the inevitable backlash is to change their hateful viewpoint of heterosexual males pronto

Originally posted by Regret
Historical Fact or Historical Fiction?

I am stating a hypothetical for the sake of generating interesting discussion. It is not my belief, but it is an interesting thought, I think Please don't get all feminist and attack me about this, it is actually a more feminist attitude than the current one that says all the women throughout history up until recently were not intelligent, and that it took women thousands of years to gain basic rights

Assumptions:

1) Women are intelligent, and have always been intelligent. I think we can agree that women are very often more intelligent than most men.

2) Women understand the aspects of being a woman that make them valuable, and have understood these things since the beginning.

3) Women often are more than slightly capable at manipulating men into doing anything they want us to do, and again this has existed forever.

4) Women have always understood intrigue and politics better than they let on, throughout history.

Hypothesis:

Now, given our assumptions, we will reinterpret the state of women through history including the past century or so.

At some point in the ever distant history women were also hunters (and probably survived more frequently than men.) At some point following this women stopped being hunters. Why did they stop? Because they found that if they crooned over some dumb caveman's hunting prowess the stupid man would do it, and they wouldn't have to risk their lives to get meat.

Thus mating for longer periods of time, and to an individual man began to be a good idea. Why was it a good idea? Easy, if you told a man you liked him long enough you could eventually tell him to do anything, given proper phrasing of the desired act. If you told some other dumb caveman he was great you would undermine the brainwashing you had been doing to your main man, so one man was a good idea.

So women did most the rest of the work, men just killed big dangerous animals and brought it back to the waiting woman. Women thought about this, and decided "Hey, why not get him to do everything that I don't really enjoy doing?" So they, the women, start slowly getting men to do more. Now the men are gutting and cleaning their kills before bringing them home. Suddenly men start doing the gathering of fruits, and farming. Women were smart, they had reduced men to little more than trained beasts of burden.

Some men started thinking that women should be doing more, that they should work outside the home as well. So women described the work necessary around the home, and explained to the men that they did not like to do this work, that it was demeaning. They utterly convinced men that the gender roles were his idea, that he forced her to stay at home, she would love to go work outside the home, but she had to stay and do the household work. So now she was able to stay at home, and do all the work she needed to at home without having to travel to a place of work.

Then over time women forgot their intelligent, cunning, plan. Eventually women decided that it really was men that forced them into this state. They forgot that life really sucks, and it is awful nice to work in the home compared to outside the home. And so, in less than a century, women undid the careful work their predecessors had done.


This is some serious bullshit. If you think that women are smarter than us, then you're just a gender traitor. Enjoy your stay in the lowest level of Hell.

yes they were suppressed..

All of you get your asses over to www.angryharry.com and go to the student guide on the left hand side of page and read every last dam article and I'm sure you'll see how it is.

And that statement about women being more intelligent than most men is the biggest bullshit I've seen this week. Were there any women Pascals, Kants, Newtons, Da Vincis?

Originally posted by Akira99
All of you get your asses over to www.angryharry.com and go to the student guide on the left hand side of page and read every last dam article and I'm sure you'll see how it is.

And that statement about women being more intelligent than most men is the biggest bullshit I've seen this week. Were there any women Pascals, Kants, Newtons, Da Vincis? Although I agree hat men are smarter, history is written by the winners, and the men were the winners, so the men wrote history and decided who and what to write about.

Originally posted by Regret
The assumptions are based on the fact that it is possible, didn't look for support. I believe that women are and always have been equal to men in genetic makeup.

Your perception of women throughout history is based in original archaeology. The early theories of men and women and their roles were created during a period when women were more "suppressed" by men who believed that men were superior. Newer theories are based somewhat in the older theories. Is it possible that the theories are wrong? Is it possible that we have interpreted much of history from our perspective, especially archaeological history? Look at the animal kingdom, are females helpless with children? Written history was written, for the most part, by whom? Men or women?

This isn't a statement of fact. It is a statement saying "what if?" What if the general interpretation of history is not correct? What if? Is your stance on this based in fact, or the perspective that we see things? We do not know what history was like, archaeologists make extremely educated inferences and guesses as to things like this topic based in large part on the world they live in. I believe they are probably right, I won't second guess them, they have a lot more education on the subject than I. But, it is an interesting thought. I prefer to believe that women chose the roles they filled. I have difficulty believing women were forced to do things they did not want to do. I believe that women are smarter, stronger, and more capable than it seems many people say they were. So yes, I do dislike the typical picture painted of the historical woman. I did not set out to prove anything, just to say "what if?" Women and Men are different, deal with it.

http://www.angryharry.com/esMenareMoreIntelligentthanWomen.htm
Read this article and tell me that women are more intelligent than most men.
And read this article to see how today people would get the impression that women are indeed more intelligent than most men:
http://www.angryharry.com/esWellDonetheGirls.htm

If you read even more articles from that god site you will see that men and women were biologically hard wired to act the way they do throughout evolution and that no successful society has succeeded by treating women badly and that both men AND women made history as we know it

"I think we can agree that women are very often more intelligent than most men."
Then why did boys score higher than girls on ever category in SATS even though there were more girls overall and women get more places in college etc.? Casual, weak and downrite stupid comments like this are not what this world needs if there is ever to be reconcilliation between the two sexes at all

Originally posted by Nogoodnamesleft
This is some serious bullshit. If you think that women are smarter than us, then you're just a gender traitor. Enjoy your stay in the lowest level of Hell. Crazy redneck.

I think men were angry that women were more clever and more understanding so men made women have less rights and blocked off the potential of women. I think that it is now the other way round. It isnt so equal.

Originally posted by Nogoodnamesleft
This is some serious bullshit. If you think that women are smarter than us, then you're just a gender traitor. Enjoy your stay in the lowest level of Hell.

there's something wrong with you.

QUOTE=7061125]Originally posted by Akira99
I think true feminists who truly wanted equality with men did exist in the 60s and 70s but now I see that feminism is MOSTLY about one thing that has been VERY successful no matter what way you look at it. To stir up hatred of "men" and the patriarchy. Feminists in the UK have no interest in the well-being of children they just want to use their programs to demonise men. There are very few TRUE feminist left. Where I come from there was survey saying 50% of all women feel they should be allowed to beat their husbands. Boppit jokes are everywhere you look.
As for women being oppressed in the generation preceding ours it has been greatly exaggerated. I am NOT AT ALL saying women were NOT oppessed because they were but they were not NEARLY as oppressed as men by OTHER men! In the World Wars the Generals used to order hundreds of infantry men to charge up the hills just to find out where enemie's weaknesses lay. There was no hope or intention that any of these soldiers would survive or be rescued. Their lives were simply expended in order to provide the General with some information that he was keen to have. It must have been simple awful for the poor soldiers who have returned in psychologically damaged states to discover that their girlfriends had cheated on them while they were away or that they had to return in such a condition that they could never get a woman or have a family.
Of course all this is conveniently forgotten especially by feminists who continue to complain about how 'oppressed' the women were. Sure they were oppressed but against the men who had to continue to live in a premanently handicapped state for the rest of their lives I feel a great deal of anger towards them.
I suppose women were oppressed most of all when Titanic sunk and men were instantly made the lowest class citizens because of chivalry.
I could go like this for hours but theres just too much to say...
Yes I did get these sources from Angry Harry's website. I like him am very worried because the Men's Movement IS coming and it is unstoppable! When it does I fear for feminists. I really do. They can't stop it but they can certainly reduce the backlash a little by brining their demoinisation of men and their viewpoint to a halt and becoming TRUE feminists. The best way they can reduce the sheer power of the inevitable backlash is to change their hateful viewpoint of heterosexual males pronto

Of course it is important to look at how men are and were being effected too and how they were forced into being a certain way, as women were. There was, and still is an image of how men and women should be, and the role they should take. Its so good to look at both sides. I don't agree with feminists who simply demonize men because of their gender, because that is the doing the same thing as what many men do to women. I also don't like the idea that women "should" go out in the world and work if they don't want to. I think that men, and women, need to do what their heart wants.. like if a man wants to stay home and nurture his children he can, and if a women wants to go out in work she can, vice versa. I just wish people who chose to stay home got more recognition for what they do. I agree with you, I think we need to remember true feminism..

I was watching a show last night about African tribes. The women are suppressed, and treated as though they are less then the men. They are "given" to men to marry, and the men can marry other women if they want. But the women can only "belong" to one man. A little boy was crying and a man said something along the lines of "He must be in your clan, because boys in my clan don't cry. Why is he crying?"

I think we need to let go of our old un evolved traditional ways, and start becoming more conscious...



Wow somebody has an ego. It must scare the shit out of you to see how smart women are.

I don't like competition between men and women about who is "smarter" and who is not. Because everybody, as individuals, are smart in their own ways. I don't really know the statistics about certain things though. I wonder how truly reliable some are...

Originally posted by Akira99
All of you get your asses over to www.angryharry.com and go to the student guide on the left hand side of page and read every last dam article and I'm sure you'll see how it is.

And that statement about women being more intelligent than most men is the biggest bullshit I've seen this week. Were there any women Pascals, Kants, Newtons, Da Vincis?

Why is it so hard for you to believe that some women may be smarter in certain ways... i think it goes both ways. Women were often times suppressed and demonized if they showed their talent. Thats ridiculous to base your ideas of how "smart" women are on those examples. Ever think about the word HIS-STORY? History books were written by MEN... about men. I'm sure many stories of amazing women far in the past were erased and forgotten...
If you will look around you right now you'll see how much talent there is in BOTH genders There is a lot more freedom now then there was in the past for people to share with the world who they are.

Have you actually read the articles yet? And its not hard at all for me to believe what you said about women being smarter in certain ways. Not at all. Naturally I would love nothing more to see a world where the strongest qualities of both men and women were valued and utilised and through it acceptance of each other and maybe even a Plato's circle closeness to gender equality. At the moment is clear it is the opposite with men being oppressed due to boys not doing so well in school as their natural mascunility is being treated as a disease - masculanity which created the world as we know it down to the last bridge and aeroplane. I'd love to see a society where men are permitted and loved instead of scorned for being men and vice versa for women as well as seeing everyone man or woman as individuals. For a start this whole women live longer by five years but retire earlier by 5 years bullshit can go down the toilet and rather the dating field is more even with men not having to have the sole responsibility of risking their egos asking a woman out and of course women not being undermined and seen as sex objects .

You must not assume that every man sees women as inferior because they hate the way men are treated today and resent how men were oppressed even more than women were in the old days. I see myself as a men's right activist and I just want the world to be a better place where radical feminism and political correctness are disipated

Originally posted by Akira99
men were oppressed even more than women were in the old days.

you're serious? i imagine there have to be exceptions like slavery in which certain ment were opressed more, but you can't seriously believe men were opressed more than women.

Of course there were exceptions but it didn't change the fact that men generally were expendable in comparison to women as I explained in my previous posts. Read these articles and then tell me why I can't believe men were more oppressed than women. They make sense and sadly its the truth:
http://www.angryharry.com/eswerewomenoppressedinthewest.htm
No. Not compared to the oppression faced by men.

http://www.angryharry.com/esFeminismappearsnotsomuchdeadasobsolete.htm
look at the photos, look at the films and you'll see the evidence for yourself.

http://www.angryharry.com/esAnExclusiveandInsightfulInterview.htm
An Exclusive and Insightful Interview with Angry Harry!
the worthlessness of men

http://www.harrysnews.com/tgWarsAndTheirAftermath.htm
Who Cares about Soldiers? The dismembered veterans will find that almost nobody appreciates what they did, and that few even remember it.

Just read the articles and then make statements that I am wrong with evidence instead of not reading them and sayign I am wrong with no evidence comparible to ones in articles. I am not a hate rof women - I see them as equals and I am NOT saying at all that they were NOT oppressed. Its just lame to complain about such a thing when it is MEN who had the even shorter end of the stick overall and feminism is trying to destroy any appreciation of this

Originally posted by Regret
Historical Fact or Historical Fiction?

I am stating a hypothetical for the sake of generating interesting discussion. It is not my belief, but it is an interesting thought, I think Please don't get all feminist and attack me about this, it is actually a more feminist attitude than the current one that says all the women throughout history up until recently were not intelligent, and that it took women thousands of years to gain basic rights

Assumptions:

1) Women are intelligent, and have always been intelligent. I think we can agree that women are very often more intelligent than most men.

2) Women understand the aspects of being a woman that make them valuable, and have understood these things since the beginning.

3) Women often are more than slightly capable at manipulating men into doing anything they want us to do, and again this has existed forever.

4) Women have always understood intrigue and politics better than they let on, throughout history.

Hypothesis:

Now, given our assumptions, we will reinterpret the state of women through history including the past century or so.

At some point in the ever distant history women were also hunters (and probably survived more frequently than men.) At some point following this women stopped being hunters. Why did they stop? Because they found that if they crooned over some dumb caveman's hunting prowess the stupid man would do it, and they wouldn't have to risk their lives to get meat.

Thus mating for longer periods of time, and to an individual man began to be a good idea. Why was it a good idea? Easy, if you told a man you liked him long enough you could eventually tell him to do anything, given proper phrasing of the desired act. If you told some other dumb caveman he was great you would undermine the brainwashing you had been doing to your main man, so one man was a good idea.

So women did most the rest of the work, men just killed big dangerous animals and brought it back to the waiting woman. Women thought about this, and decided "Hey, why not get him to do everything that I don't really enjoy doing?" So they, the women, start slowly getting men to do more. Now the men are gutting and cleaning their kills before bringing them home. Suddenly men start doing the gathering of fruits, and farming. Women were smart, they had reduced men to little more than trained beasts of burden.

Some men started thinking that women should be doing more, that they should work outside the home as well. So women described the work necessary around the home, and explained to the men that they did not like to do this work, that it was demeaning. They utterly convinced men that the gender roles were his idea, that he forced her to stay at home, she would love to go work outside the home, but she had to stay and do the household work. So now she was able to stay at home, and do all the work she needed to at home without having to travel to a place of work.

Then over time women forgot their intelligent, cunning, plan. Eventually women decided that it really was men that forced them into this state. They forgot that life really sucks, and it is awful nice to work in the home compared to outside the home. And so, in less than a century, women undid the careful work their predecessors had done.

yes I've heard of this thought before. Women are definitely intelligent and can no doubt manipulate men to do things for them on a very material level. But to answer your question, yes, women and their rights were oppressed (and continue to be in some places) despite their sly nature of being abale to persuade us men out of our bread and butter. The problem is that many women (I've noticed) are very submissive when it comes to one on one dialogue with men (or other women) who are more dominant. That behavior has become ingrained in many many cultures. It's always pretty awesome to run into a hardcore ***** who speaks her mind, but doesn't meet the stereotypes of a bull-dyke...

Originally posted by Akira99
Of course there were exceptions but it didn't change the fact that men generally were expendable in comparison to women as I explained in my previous posts. Read these articles and then tell me why I can't believe men were more oppressed than women. They make sense and sadly its the truth:
http://www.angryharry.com/eswerewomenoppressedinthewest.htm
No. Not compared to the oppression faced by men.

http://www.angryharry.com/esFeminismappearsnotsomuchdeadasobsolete.htm
look at the photos, look at the films and you'll see the evidence for yourself.

http://www.angryharry.com/esAnExclusiveandInsightfulInterview.htm
An Exclusive and Insightful Interview with Angry Harry!
the worthlessness of men

http://www.harrysnews.com/tgWarsAndTheirAftermath.htm
Who Cares about Soldiers? The dismembered veterans will find that almost nobody appreciates what they did, and that few even remember it.

Just read the articles and then make statements that I am wrong with evidence instead of not reading them and sayign I am wrong with no evidence comparible to ones in articles. I am not a hate rof women - I see them as equals and I am NOT saying at all that they were NOT oppressed. Its just lame to complain about such a thing when it is MEN who had the even shorter end of the stick overall and feminism is trying to destroy any appreciation of this

This is a very very biased site.....

Well, Angry Harry is an activist in the British men' s movement.

And no doubt what he says is a little biased and sometimes quite sickly but I think he does make sense. Again have you read his articles? Then you could explain why he is wrong though I do agree that he is biased

Originally posted by Akira99
All of you get your asses over to www.angryharry.com and go to the student guide on the left hand side of page and read every last dam article and I'm sure you'll see how it is.
I think that his articles are poorly written. =(

~ Kryzula

But true? Articles don't have to be brilliantly written to tell the truth. Do you think the articles are right? Or do you not? Anyways its irrelevant. I only linked these articles to show the bigger picture and to show how feminism has blurred it and bit the very hand that fed them and payed for the world they live in now - . that there is no denying men were more oppressed than women as a whole .
But Women were still suppressed
end of

Some of these articles are just as extreme as some types of feminism... its like one extreme to the other. I read many articles that i disagreed with, where i felt like he was putting down women. I disagree, i do not think men were more suppressed then women. They both have been in different ways.

There is no doubt that men opress other men, in extreme fashion, but why oh why are you comparing it to the oppression of women? It more or less sounds like you are blaming women for man's agressive nature. Couldn't you just make a topic about how brutal men are to each other and maybe discuss how we as a species should rethink our societal behavior, rather than trying to attack feminism. I know a few feminists and while I agree some of them are man hating awkward people, there are a whole lot more who are beautifully caring and compassionate women (and men) who look at men as equals and treat them the same way they'd expect to be treated.

I think you are trying to critique and generalize a whole population of feminists. There are many different kinds (or categories) of feminists who share different ideals, so please don't lump them all together. Yes there are some feminists who can be down right nasty toward men, but that is just a fraction of the population who describe themselves as being a feminist.

Originally posted by meep-meep
There is no doubt that men opress other men, in extreme fashion, but why oh why are you comparing it to the oppression of women? It more or less sounds like you are blaming women for man's agressive nature. Couldn't you just make a topic about how brutal men are to each other and maybe discuss how we as a species should rethink our societal behavior, rather than trying to attack feminism. I know a few feminists and while I agree some of them are man hating awkward people, there are a whole lot more who are beautifully caring and compassionate women (and men) who look at men as equals and treat them the same way they'd expect to be treated.

I think you are trying to critique and generalize a whole population of feminists. There are many different kinds (or categories) of feminists who share different ideals, so please don't lump them all together. Yes there are some feminists who can be down right nasty toward men, but that is just a fraction of the population who describe themselves as being a feminist.

wonderfully said

How am I blaming women for men's aggression? Thats not exactly what I said . In case you haven't got it yet I am not against women in anyway at all but it seems you will attack me in anyway possible. I never had that intention to show that which you said but if I have I am sorry and beg you to explain HOW I made such an impression.
You are right that I blame feminist because the only feminism that has any large scale affect nowadays is extreme feminism. Boys doing badly at school due to their not allowed to be men and men being demonised constantly in the media and having virtually no chance of succes in child custody to name a few:
http://www.angryharry.com/nobenefitsoffeminism.htm
Yes this biased and women aggressive but it is dam true when you put 2 and 2 together.
Yes there are feminsms that have been good for women helping them achieve the rights they deserve but no longer. The majority of feminism is benefiting women at the expense of men and this is not acceptable. Its almost as if this generation of men who are being brought up to like dolls are being blamed for the evils of their male ancestors. Unacceptable.
I am not going to be all nice about this. Being nice doesn't work. I don't hate women and I want them to be happy and successful in the world as much as men but I made a decision to no longer suffer political correctness and radical feminism and other feminisms that promote emasculation of men and a great many other problems for BOTH genders.
this shows how feminism has effected our world.
And naturally I welcome critism but can you please add some example or quality evidence to back them up? I am not focused on being right about everything I say I just want what anyone wants - a world that benefits men AND women as equally as possible devoid of highly destructive political correctness and extreme feminism

Originally posted by Akira99
How am I blaming women for men's aggression? Thats not exactly what I said . In case you haven't got it yet I am not against women in anyway at all but it seems you will attack me in anyway possible. I never had that intention to show that which you said but if I have I am sorry and beg you to explain HOW I made such an impression.
You are right that I blame feminist because the only feminism that has any large scale affect nowadays is extreme feminism. Boys doing badly at school due to their not allowed to be men and men being demonised constantly in the media and having virtually no chance of succes in child custody to name a few:
http://www.angryharry.com/nobenefitsoffeminism.htm
Yes this biased and women aggressive but it is dam true when you put 2 and 2 together.
Yes there are feminsms that have been good for women helping them achieve the rights they deserve but no longer. The majority of feminism is benefiting women at the expense of men and this is not acceptable. Its almost as if this generation of men who are being brought up to like dolls are being blamed for the evils of their male ancestors. Unacceptable.
I am not going to be all nice about this. Being nice doesn't work. I don't hate women and I want them to be happy and successful in the world as much as men but I made a decision to no longer suffer political correctness and radical feminism and other feminisms that promote emasculation of men and a great many other problems for BOTH genders.
this shows how feminism has effected our world.
And naturally I welcome critism but can you please add some example or quality evidence to back them up? I am not focused on being right about everything I say I just want what anyone wants - a world that benefits men AND women as equally as possible devoid of highly destructive political correctness and extreme feminism

I'm not "attacking" you. I'm just telling you it's not very smart to generalize feminists, which you are doing. If you wan tto talk about feminists who I despise, let's talk about liberal feminists. But dear god don't you talk about socialist feminists...I will have to kill you, you see.

Why don't you give us examples of certain feminists who emasculate men, and discuss what kind of feminist they describe themselves as?

Like I said before I know a few feminists. For the most part I have rather enlightening conversations with them. And not one of them has done anything to make me feel emasculated. Even the stupid man hating ones. They just look at me, act awkward, say something stupid and walk away. You may need to develop some thicker skin.

Originally posted by mysticpeach
wonderfully said

I give up. Theres nothing I can say that will explain myself fluently enough . That and the fact that most people around here are idiots who only accept what they want to here and not the truth. Its like the goddam matrix - no-one wants to accept the truth.
And I must have been half-asleep when I said there were some feminists who actually did good. Maybe there are some feminists who BELIEVE they are doing good because they are sheepishly followers of powerful influential feminists so I am not directly attacking them as people. Fact is if you used any common sense you would see that feminism has benefited society, Men OR Women in NO WAY AT ALL. Science, Technology and Men are to thank for women's liberation. Feminism is a self-destructive policy that has like Political Correctness only negative effects society.
I would love to spend hours giving you the examples and logic seeing as you are all too thick to work it out for yourselves. Its all on that site and you can say what you want to say but it holds the truth. The articles may seem biased but they are linked to other articles on the site as it is so hard to include everything in one article comments are the thing here]. So its your choice. Read it or don't Doesn't change the fact that The Men's Movement is cometh. Nothing can stop it. Men will universally learn to see themselves as Men and take back the Power feminsism sapped from them and strike out with a backlash the world has never seen and god-help any of you who are not prepared for it. I'll say no more on this topic but I will reply to PMs etc. based on the assumption they are not abusive and that you have actually bothered to read those dam articles and provide some solid arguments etc. Its all there on that site and I need all the practice I can get!

Originally posted by Akira99
I give up. Theres nothing I can say that will explain myself fluently enough . That and the fact that most people around here are idiots who only accept what they want to here and not the truth. Its like the goddam matrix - no-one wants to accept the truth.
And I must have been half-asleep when I said there were some feminists who actually did good. Maybe there are some feminists who BELIEVE they are doing good because they are sheepishly followers of powerful influential feminists so I am not directly attacking them as people. Fact is if you used any common sense you would see that feminism has benefited society, Men OR Women in NO WAY AT ALL. Science, Technology and Men are to thank for women's liberation. Feminism is a self-destructive policy that has like Political Correctness only negative effects society.
I would love to spend hours giving you the examples and logic seeing as you are all too thick to work it out for yourselves. Its all on that site and you can say what you want to say but it holds the truth. The articles may seem biased but they are linked to other articles on the site as it is so hard to include everything in one article comments are the thing here]. So its your choice. Read it or don't Doesn't change the fact that The Men's Movement is cometh. Nothing can stop it. Men will universally learn to see themselves as Men and take back the Power feminsism sapped from them and strike out with a backlash the world has never seen and god-help any of you who are not prepared for it. I'll say no more on this topic but I will reply to PMs etc. based on the assumption they are not abusive and that you have actually bothered to read those dam articles and provide some solid arguments etc. Its all there on that site and I need all the practice I can get!

hey man don't blame us just cause you aren't articulate enough to defend your bigoted point of view. sure some men helped women's rights but women had to do much of it themselves. You speak about political correctness like it's a bad thing. it's not. there is nothng wrong with respecting other people. the problem comes when people become over-sensitive which can be caused by political correctness, but the idea itself is good. i know why some people dislike feminism and how it can be kinda obnoxious, but the truth is it's still needed. the concept of gender still exhists which restricts women's opportnities. how can you possibly criticize those who simply want everyone to be treated fairly?

Anyone good with riddles?

Originally posted by Akira99
...The Men's Movement is cometh. Nothing can stop it. Men will universally learn to see themselves as Men and take back the Power feminsism sapped from them and strike out with a backlash the world has never seen and god-help any of you who are not prepared for it...

I gotta say you sound just as radical as the crazy people you critique.
like I said before you need thicker skin. Otherwise you'll likely lose all your hair at a young age.

Well I gotta say that you have a habit of making assuptions about people you've never met based on their arguments - thicker skin, me being radical etc. I'm just telling what is coming - I really do fear the outcome as it will not be pretty is all. Ok that really IS the last thing I'll say on this topic before people make even uglier assumptions about me or anyone else who sees the truth

Fact all the way.http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y97/tim1234321/super_cool.gif

Very clever. You must be wetting yourself with delight

I thought that I would post in response to Akira's posts.

I do not necessarily believe the instigating post I made to start this thread. I posted it to get a decent discussion of the concept of suppression, particularly the suppression of women, and it achieved the purpose I had intended. I do not want to be lumped in as agreeing with everything that people say in agreement with my posts, although some few points I consider possibly valid.

I tired of the discussion and have not returned in quite a while, but I like the fact that it continues. Have fun.

To kikass: please don't post stupid f-ing posts...

hold up.....women f******** rock, they'r just suppressed by all this stuff

what...

well, what an interesting thread here. Now I am going to share my views on this issue and it may stir some people up! I believe that women are so to speak lower than men. We were put here to stand by our men to listen to them, to basically care for their every needs (NOT in a bad way!) Men are supposed to do things for us, don't get me wrong I just think God put women here to help men, not rise above them in revolt! I hate womens rights people they annoy me so bad! I think the women should all stop complaining and continue to cook, clean, and etc for their men. But that is just what I think! And I am a women haha!

OH MY GOD!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

*Shakes Phoebe*

Originally posted by debbiejo
OH MY GOD!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

*Shakes Phoebe*


*giggles* shaking me won't change my views dear dear debbie.

NO no.......don't become anyones slave. We are all equal....Though I do believe that one should always try to please the other as long as it doesn't jeopardize what YOU are inside, and the other should do the same. If both are doing this, then things can usually work out for the best. It's when one expects MORE from the other, demanding more and more..trying to change them, then it is selfish and self centered... Even if someone wants to leave a relationship, it would be unconditional love to let them do so. Putting another first in this way is what love is imo.

Originally posted by debbiejo
NO no.......don't become anyones slave. We are all equal....Though I do believe that one should always try to please the other as long as it doesn't jeopardize what YOU are inside, and the other should do the same. If both are doing this, then things can usually work out for the best. It's when one expects MORE from the other, demanding more and more..trying to change them, then it is selfish and self centered... Even if someone wants to leave a relationship, it would be unconditional love to let them do so. Putting another first in this way is what love is imo. This is not a statement as to my agreement with either of your views as I have a differing view that is somewhat of an amalgam of both with other considerations as well.

Equal does not necessitate the same. Roles do not need to be available to both sexes for full equallity to be maintained.

I don't recall talking to you.......................

Must I go back and remember everything?? What? You superior??

lol

Originally posted by Regret
Equal does not necessitate the same. Roles do not need to be available to both sexes for full equallity to be maintained.
thumbs_up

Originally posted by debbiejo
I don't recall talking to you.......................

Must I go back and remember everything?? What? You superior??

lol No, my wife and I are equal. But she is capable of things that I am not, and vice versa. Also, we believe, and this is something she taught me, that the gender roles typically embrace the strengths of each gender. It is only when superiority is assumed, or when roles are forced upon an individual, that such roles are harmful.

Originally posted by Regret
No, my wife and I are equal. But she is capable of things that I am not, and vice versa. Also, we believe, and this is something she taught me, that the gender roles typically embrace the strengths of each gender. It is only when superiority is assumed, or when roles are forced upon an individual, that such roles are harmful.


When Gender roles are forced upon a person, the harm can be great....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
When Gender roles are forced upon a person, the harm can be great.... Agreed

Does this mean no return of big, manlike shoulder pads in women's "suits"?

Originally posted by Mindship
Does this mean no return of big, manlike shoulder pads in women's "suits"? I believe this, and all other masculine women's attire, was due to the social psych concept, don't remember their label, that dealt with the Stanford prison experiment as well as the effect of uniform.

People had a long history of behaving in a certain manner towards women. When women entered the workplace they needed to provide the stimuli that gained proper respect in the workplace, hence masculine women's business attire. Over time, the attire women wear is returning to a more feminine appearance as the leadership role loses the discriminatory stimulus of being absolutely male dominated, and younger generations without the previously existing history of behaviors enters the workforce while those that held the history are leaving.

Originally posted by Regret
No, my wife and I are equal. But she is capable of things that I am not, and vice versa. Also, we believe, and this is something she taught me, that the gender roles typically embrace the strengths of each gender. It is only when superiority is assumed, or when roles are forced upon an individual, that such roles are harmful.


What evidence do you have that gender roles reflect inherent qualities in a given sex. It is one thing to embrace a gender role because you identify with it and feel, at least in the case between you and your wife, that they work to celebrate the qualities unique to each separate identities rather than denote superiority to one or the other. It is another thing if you actually believe a given sex deserves those qualities you assign it based on scientific evidence or perceptions that selected behaviors reflect inherent qualities/differences unique to a given sex. Sociology teaches that gender is socially constructed. Is there reason to believe otherwise, and to what extent?

Originally posted by m. sade
What evidence do you have that gender roles reflect inherent qualities in a given sex. It is one thing to embrace a gender role because you identify with it and feel, at least in the case between you and your wife, that they work to celebrate the qualities unique to each separate identities rather than denote superiority to one or the other. It is another thing if you actually believe a given sex deserves those qualities you assign it based on scientific evidence or perceptions that selected behaviors reflect inherent qualities/differences unique to a given sex. Sociology teaches that gender is socially constructed. Is there reason to believe otherwise, and to what extent? Hence the "we believe" and not a "scientifically speaking"

Well I do believe that each gender has different qualities that compliment each other, but some take it too far and start expecting way too much.

Because not one size fits all.....

sometimes, it depends on the man.

see, submission is the form of love and dedication and loyality, even men submit to their job or boss or whatever they want in life.

the problem is FORCING someone to submit, submission is an act of love and HOW a person submits depends on their character, one female aspect of submission can be far different then another...so, it's not cool to expect all females to submit the same way...there really isn't a uniform standard on how a woman should submit, but because some men have a concept in mind based on his ego, friends, father, or mother...he may subjugate females to submit and therefore, suppress his girlfriend, coworker, ect.

Is this progress?

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/most-women-now-live-without-a-husband/20070116100109990001