Love/Hate

AOR

Hate or hatred is an emotion of intense revulsion, distaste, enmity, or antipathy for a person, thing, or phenomenon; a desire to avoid, restrict, remove, or destroy its object. "Hate" can also describe a state in which one strongly desires another living being to experience pain or negative affects, be they emotional or physical. The emotion is often stigmatized; yet it serves an important purpose, as does love. Just as love signals attachment, hatred signals detachment.

Love is a condition or phenomenon of emotional primacy, or absolute value. Love generally includes an emotion of intense attraction to either another person, a place, or thing; and may also include the aspect of caring for or finding identification with those objects, including self love. Love can describe an intense feeling of affection, an emotion or an emotional state. In ordinary use, it usually refers to interpersonal love, an experience usually felt by a person for another person. Love is commonly considered impossible to define.

However Love-Hate relationships do exsist though...

Love-Hate relationship is a personal relationship between humans or organizations, or figuratively between a human and an inanimate object, like a computer, a field of study, a body of ideas, or a profession, involving simultaneous or alternating emotions of love and enmity. This relationship may or may not be of a romantic nature.

The term comes from the way one may love the object or person one moment, and yet the next moment feel great rage or hatred for it. For example, a computer may impress a user with amazing video game graphics one moment, only to give rise to anger when it crashes during the game. As a colloquial expression, if someone says "I have a love-hate relationship with legal studies", what the person is trying to express is a marked ambivalence about his or her study of the law; parts of it are attractive, while other aspects are personally repellent.

(On a side note...Wikipedia, I love you smile

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Mindship

Originally posted by AOR
Just as love signals attachment, hatred signals detachment.

I disagree.
It might be better to describe love as a positive attachment, hate as a negative attachment, being that when you truly hate someone/thing, you are still investing a lot of emotional energy in that relationship.
Apathy, I would say, signals detachment.

And yes, definitions aside for the moment, IMO, it is possible to love and hate simultaneously.

overlord

I hate women for making me fall in love with them. I hate being in love but I can't do without it somehow. I was psychotic once through mind expanding drugs and was completely without love for anybody and I didn't like it.. oops, and that while I always thought I didn't need anybody, what a revelation.
Wow.

Anyway.. I'm never truely disgusted by anybody either actually. Maybe I don't know true hate. I love all attention, even negative. All the revenge I take (yes, I have a terrorist mentality) are just because I can.
Can anybody help me? Are there people around here who are such simple souls that they have actually experienced true hatred?
eek!

goatstradamus

I don't think you can choose whether or not you love someone or something, it cant be turned off or on, it just is.... but I think you can choose whether or not to 'hate'.
I think what is meant by 'hate' in this instance is a reaction to a sensation of frustration or rage....and we have a choice in how or whether or not we react to that sensation in a negative or positive way.
Everyone gets frustrated or mad from time to time, how you react to those sensations is up to you.

Therefore I think it is possible to have a love/hate relationship, and in most cases it is probably normal and healthy.

overlord

Oh, I turned love off, trust me. I'm a psycho.
But I turned it on again because I got a little scared of myself.

goatstradamus

eh, well.. love is a very sketch thing.

Perhaps you mean 'selfish love.'
Selfish love is when you love what someone or something contributes to your life.. this is by far the most prevalent form of love.... It has a lot to do with feelings of possession over another and jealousy.... all the way to attachment to material possessions and so forth and so on. For example, a person that you selfishly love is someone that you want to do things for because when you do, it helps them, but it also makes you feel good about yourself. Not because you just want them to be happy, but because it also makes you happy.
This isn't a bad form of love, its just the way it is in the majority of relationships.... and of course it can be abused like anything else.

So if you "turned off" your selfish love, then you turned off your desire to love yourself through other people and things...I don't know how you think you did that but ...ok...
One could argue that choosing to do just about anything is a form of selfish love, such as using a computer...

Perhaps selfish love has more to do with the brain while true love comes from the 'heart?'.... if thats the case then most relationships probably have a bit of both, the majority going towards one way or the other depending on the relationship.
Hey, maybe you just shut off your 'heart' well...whatever that means..
Hatred however is most definitely affected by the way we choose to THINK about reality.

In theory a true love, if there is such a thing, would be directly in-twined with compassion. Wanting only what is best for them with no regard for yourself.
Very rare, if it even exists at all.

debbiejo

I believe it's love scored that turnes into love/hate.

Alliance

I belive both love and hate are viable/useful/and dangerous emotions.

Lord Urizen

Love is a unifier, while Hate is more of a disunifier.

But it's a lot more confusing and complicated than that. When a person is obsessed with another person what is the motivation? Love for the other person, or hate for oneself?

Personally, I feel that Love and Hate are polar opposites. Do I beleive in a middleground somewhere? ofcourse, but I don't think you can truly hate someone if you Love them, the same way you cannot truly love someone if you hate them. Anger/jealousy is not true hatred, and lust/attraction/infatuation is not true Love.

If you truly love someone unconditionally then you can forgive them for anything and love them for thier entirety. You see thier "flaws" are part of who they are, and therefore lack judgement. If you love someone unselfishly you put thier needs first and thier happiness first. I mean, yes, you do have to love yourself before you can love anyone else, but when you do love someone else, you are more concerned with thier well being than your own.

To truly Hate someone you have to take pleasure in seeing them suffer on a continual basis. You have to be able to hurt them without feeling sorrow or regret. Thier needs and happiness have to be the LAST thing on your mind, if not even there at all. You cannot love someone that you take pleasure in seeing harmed.

Point being.....True Love and True Hate are such extremes that they cannot exist together in regard to the same person.

debbiejo

Originally posted by Alliance
I belive both love and hate are viable/useful/and dangerous emotions. Yes, very much so...............

New Faith

Yes. You love to hate them.

If you love to make fun of someone, then you love and hate them at the same time.

But they're both relationships, and relationships suck no matter what view you have on them.

All that dependency. Frightening.

AOR

I believe Hate is the abscence of Love. This because Love and Hate are based on the premise of duality, you can not have one without the other. Therefore you can not love and hate someone at the same time. You may like some things about them, and dislike the other parts, but never love and hate them...

New Faith

Originally posted by AOR
I believe Hate is the abscence of Love. This because Love and Hate are based on the premise of duality, you can not have one without the other. Therefore you can not love and hate someone at the same time. You may like some things about them, and dislike the other parts, but never love and hate them...

Wait wait. So I don't know some kid in Asia, therefore a don't love him, so in my absence of love, I hate him?

Pretty bleak, hating 99.9% of the world's population.

TheSpinner

Love and Hate are the same EMOTION made up of both negative charges as well as positive charges. Initially it is in a NEUTRAL STATUS: The negative charges and positive ones are in perfect equilibrium.

The UNKNOWN to our thoughts does not affect this equilibrium. But the KNOWN to our thoughts does! When you start thinking about Someone or something. And you perceive something about them as good, some of negative charges are converted to positive ones. And if you perceive it as bad then some of the positive charges are converted to negative ones.

If the change in charges throws the equilibrium just slightly one way or another, then you are in the state of " I have the feeling". if the equilibrium is more displaced than that, then you are in the state of " I like or I dislike" if the equilibrium displacement is substantial then you are heading towards the "I love or I hate" state.

Love and Hate are respectively represented by the positive and negative charges in that emotion. And the equilibrium between the two is only affected by our perception of things including humans. In order for one of them to grow stronger it has to take charges away from the other one, at the same time rendering it weaker. Therefore you can practically only hate someone or something with the same intensity that you love them in the perfect equilibrium state. Which means that you have absolutely no perceptions in their regard. and the UNKNOWN is the the only prefect candidate for that.

"I only believe half of what I think"(TheSpinner)

AOR

Originally posted by New Faith
Wait wait. So I don't know some kid in Asia, therefore a don't love him, so in my absence of love, I hate him?

Pretty bleak, hating 99.9% of the world's population.

Since when is that lack of knowledge of something hate? I assure you, when you successfully define love you will see that the knowledge of someone or something has nothing to do with the actual idea of love. Even then, for your extremely general example, you still do not hate the boy. For starters because you can honestly tell me you don't.

However, unlike hate, Love has different...settings if I may. There is Liking, Infatuated love, Empty love, Romantic love, and Companionate love. But there is only one hate. When there is not even the three basic components of love (intimacy, passion, and commitment) let alone the above six, there is not love...but hate. Recognition does not impede love to form.

Do you, New Faith, believe in love at first sight?

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by AOR
Since when is that lack of knowledge of something hate? I assure you, when you successfully define love you will see that the knowledge of someone or something has nothing to do with the actual idea of love. Even then, for your extremely general example, you still do not hate the boy. For starters because you can honestly tell me you don't.

However, unlike hate, Love has different...settings if I may. There is Liking, Infatuated love, Empty love, Romantic love, and Companionate love. But there is only one hate. When there is not even the three basic components of love (intimacy, passion, and commitment) let alone the above six, there is not love...but hate. Recognition does not impede love to form.

Do you, New Faith, believe in love at first sight?

Infatuation can lead to obsession, and obsession is not love.

I beleive obsession is caused by a lack of self strength, or even a lack of self love, and therefore this kind of a person is only capable of "loving" someone in this way: being obsessed and projecting all care to another person. Another person who the obsessed person sees as everything that matters, a compensation for everything else that he or she does not have. That is unhealthy, that is selfish, that is not love.

Loving someone allows you to recognize that other person as an individual with his or her own rights to make thier own choices independent of your input. Truly Loving someone also requires that you understand that that person does not NEED you...and you do not NEED him or her, and how it will only work if the emotion is mutual.

However, for the most part I agree with you. Love and Hate are total opposites, you cannot truly love someone and hate them at the same time, and vise versa.

AOR

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Infatuation can lead to obsession, and obsession is not love.

I beleive obsession is caused by a lack of self strength, or even a lack of self love, and therefore this kind of a person is only capable of "loving" someone in this way: being obsessed and projecting all care to another person. Another person who the obsessed person sees as everything that matters, a compensation for everything else that he or she does not have. That is unhealthy, that is selfish, that is not love.

Loving someone allows you to recognize that other person as an individual with his or her own rights to make thier own choices independent of your input. Truly Loving someone also requires that you understand that that person does not NEED you...and you do not NEED him or her, and how it will only work if the emotion is mutual.

However, for the most part I agree with you. Love and Hate are total opposites, you cannot truly love someone and hate them at the same time, and vise versa.

You can apply that manner of thinking to someone who is obesses. Sure it isn't a healthy life style, but that doesn't make tha person any less of a human than you and I. Same with love. That's why there are so many shapes and forms of it, but only one form of Hate.

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by AOR
You can apply that manner of thinking to someone who is obesses. Sure it isn't a healthy life style, but that doesn't make tha person any less of a human than you and I. Same with love. That's why there are so many shapes and forms of it, but only one form of Hate.

I never said that makes the person any less human, or means the person has any fault. I was simply stating that obsession is not true love, I do not beleive it to be so.

There is more than one form of hate:

Racism
Sexism
Self Hatred
Intense Envy
Religiously motivated hatred
Superficiality
Vengeance (which is most likely the most justified of all forms of hate)

and possibly Sadism, although sadism is more about the desire to gain pleasure from causing agony, them about actually disliking the victim.

AOR

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I never said that makes the person any less human, or means the person has any fault. I was simply stating that obsession is not true love, I do not beleive it to be so.

There is more than one form of hate:

Racism
Sexism
Self Hatred
Intense Envy
Religiously motivated hatred
Superficiality
Vengeance (which is most likely the most justified of all forms of hate)

and possibly Sadism, although sadism is more about the desire to gain pleasure from causing agony, them about actually disliking the victim.

Racism still has love, it's not a complete form of hate nor is it a complete form of love. One still likes one race but dislikes another, not necessarily true love, but love is still involved.

Sexism is more out of egotistical roots than actual hatred. For example a very conservative person (could be defined as sexist) doesn't mean that he hates his/her spouse. On the contrary, he/she could love him/her to death, but be a very self-centered viewing person.

Self-hatred is not an entire hate. For example self-hatred is at times aimed for the group that one derives from (aka Jewish self-hatred, Black self-hatred, Asian self-hatred, etc.) This "hatred" is not once again without love. Because you find the wanting/needing of change. This change of ones self is through the love sought through an idea wanted. It may not make sense, but if you truly hated yourself, change wouldn't be the top thing to do on one's list. Which mean the presence of love is what keeps one alive.

Intense Envy is more or less a greed than it is a hatred. Although envy should not be confused with covetousness, or greed, it is the desire for another's traits, status, abilities, station, or worldly goods. The desire, however, I will leave room for the lack of love but not for it's complete abscence.

Religiously motivated hatred....I'll give you that, only if you can prove that the complete abscence of love in this "hate crime". Is ask this not to disprove you, but to see your reasoning...

Superficiality...laziness?

Vengance, do you not take vengance because you loved the reason for the revenge?

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by AOR
Racism still has love, it's not a complete form of hate nor is it a complete form of love. One still likes one race but dislikes another, not necessarily true love, but love is still involved.

Love for one race, and hate for another. It is still a form of hatred, even if you argue that it is also a form of love. So Hitler's hate for the Jews was not REAL hatred, because it's only "racism"? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by AOR
Sexism is more out of egotistical roots than actual hatred. For example a very conservative person (could be defined as sexist) doesn't mean that he hates his/her spouse. On the contrary, he/she could love him/her to death, but be a very self-centered viewing person.

Hatred against homosexuals, dislike of someone for thier gender or sexual decisions (machismo and/or extreme feminism) is a form of hatred.

Homophobia is a type of hatred, and it is a form of sexism as well. wink

Originally posted by AOR
Self-hatred is not an entire hate. For example self-hatred is at times aimed for the group that one derives from (aka Jewish self-hatred, Black self-hatred, Asian self-hatred, etc.) This "hatred" is not once again without love. Because you find the wanting/needing of change. This change of ones self is through the love sought through an idea wanted. It may not make sense, but if you truly hated yourself, change wouldn't be the top thing to do on one's list. Which mean the presence of love is what keeps one alive.

Self hatred IS hate. To hate oneself for ANY reason...inferiority complex, to hate one's appearance, or to hate one's gender/race/watever....not ALL people who hate themselves want to change themselves. And even when they do , it is not about love. It is due to a LACK of Love for oneself. If you love what you are, then you only wish to improve, not CHANGE entirely.

Originally posted by AOR
Intense Envy is more or less a greed than it is a hatred. Although envy should not be confused with covetousness, or greed, it is the desire for another's traits, status, abilities, station, or worldly goods. The desire, however, I will leave room for the lack of love but not for it's complete abscence.

Not necessarily. You can be rich, handsome, pretty, popular, etc.etc.etc. and still be envious of someone else. You can even be envious of a person who has LESS than you do. This is less about actual greed (as you may not truly WANT what the other person has), and more about a lack of love and admiration (or limitted love) for oneself...therefore a desire to be more like someone else, or have what another person has.

Originally posted by AOR
Religiously motivated hatred....I'll give you that, only if you can prove that the complete abscence of love in this "hate crime". Is ask this not to disprove you, but to see your reasoning...

Hate Crimes do not all have the absense of love? So gaybashing someone out of love is possible? Hating someone for being a muslim is inspired by your love for muslims?

You cannot love and hate the same person at the same time. It's either more towards love, or more towards hate.

Originally posted by AOR
Superficiality...laziness?

WHAT???? Superficiality is the discrimination of someone based on the way they look. It's when you only like people you think are good looking, and dislike people you think are ugly.

Superficial Hatred IS definately a type of hatred. You hate someone for the way they look. Where does laziness fit in to this?

Originally posted by AOR
Vengance, do you not take vengance because you loved the reason for the revenge?

No....you take revenge on someone for what they had done to you or to a loved one. Revenge is not inspired by hatred, but revenge is a type of hatred ITSELF.

When you HATE someone for a wrong that they did.

AOR

I'm seeing your reasoning, but I don't think your seeing mine. Do you agree that love and hate are complete opposites?

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by AOR
I'm seeing your reasoning, but I don't think your seeing mine. Do you agree that love and hate are complete opposites?

Yes, I do. But it's not that simple. And they are not black and white.

Let me explain:

1) An individual person is capable of containing both LOVE and HATE. This is obvious, we are all capable of it. People with high passion especially tend to love to the extreme AND hate to the extreme. People without passion, who are more passive and less excited about things, tend to have more moderate feelings towards other people, and rarely ever feel intense hatred OR intense love.

2) I do not beleive that you can Love and Hate the SAME person. When it comes to another individual, you either love them, like them, don't care, dislike them, or hate them. Now, you can like and dislike a person at the same time. I.E. Thier freindship may mean a lot to you, but you may find them intensely annoying for reasons.

However, like and dislike are moderate relative opinions/emotions. They are not intense like love and hate. You cannot love someone that you hate, and you cannot hate someone that you love. NOT at the same time. I think it's impossible. Anger is not hatred. It may feel like hatred, but it is not. Resentment is not quite hatred yet either. Resenting someone, to a limit, is a result of anger due to how they treat you. You may actually resent someone you LOVE for mistreating you, but NOT hate them.

3) If you LOVE someone, truly love them, you love thier entirety. Thier flaws, thier strengths, thier weaknesses, etc. You also love them enough to know that they are not actually your property. You love them enough to recognize thier individuality and know that they are thier OWN person.....now although this may qualify as Mature Love, it is still an aspect of true love. And FINALLY, True love is unconditional. Nothing they do can make you hate them.

4) If you HATE someone one of the major aspects of this emotion is that you WANT to see that person suffer. Not only for satisfaction, but for pleasure as well. THIS is a major aspect of Hatred. You cannot want to see someone suffer when you LOVE them. You also tend to not care about thier well being. Thier Health, thier finances, thier happiness means nothing to you...in fact you DON'T want them to have any of these things.

Point being, I do not beleive that true Love and true Hate for the SAME person can exist.

5) And Finally- you have stated that their are many types of love, and only one type of hate.

ON THIS, I disagree entirely.

Obsession is NOT LOVE....or necessarily hate. It is something different. Obsession is caused by infatuation but then becomes a sickness. When you are obsessed with someone, you don't truly care about thier happiness or well being. You only care that they are happy with you, you only care what happiness they can provide for you. It is the most selfish and self harming kind of desire. When you are obsessed with someone, you also start to care less and less about YOURSELF. This deluding DESIRE is ALL that matters to you.....

How can Obsession be LOVE if you begin to lack a true care for yourself and a true care for the object (person) of your obsession? And obsession is an unhealthy fixation, where your entire state of mind loses its grip on reality, and focuses only on one thing or person.

Remember...in Obsession, you do not truly care about the other person. Not for thier actual happiness....BECAUSE you are unable to see them as thier own person, as an individual, when you are obsessed you feel as if they are MEANT FOR YOU....and only YOU. You also feel that without them your life is meaningless and that there is NO YOU without them......HOW can this possible be LOVE?

There are MANY types of Hate

Intense Envy is definately one. You cannot love someone that you are intensely envious of. When you love someone, truly love them, you take pleasure in thier success. You are happy because they are happy. Being envious of a person MEANS you hate to see them successful, it bothers you severely to see them happy and powerful. There is no love, no true love, when Envy of that person is present. Envy may be actually an antithesis of love.

Racism= is DEFINATELY a type of Hate. A dislike for someone based on thier race, to see someone as inferior because they are not the same race as you, or of the race that you feel is superior. THERE IS NO LOVE in a racist against the race he/she is against.

And it's not LOVE either....so don't try pulling that card. To Love someone, ONLY because they are a certain race....that is NOT LOVE at all..that is admiration. When you truly love someone, you love them for thier entirety. Not simply because they are a certain race.

Most prejudices in general, are forms of Hate wink

AOR

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, I do. But it's not that simple. And they are not black and white.

Alright, one step at a time:

So if love and hatred where to be scaled for example, this would be a correct view of forming it in your opinion:

Hate-----------------------------------------Love

If you say yes, than, imo, you view the forms of love and forms of hate as degrees from a middle of indifference. Like

Hate--Racism--Religious hate--etc...---indifference---Liking--Infatuated love--Empty love--etc...--Consumate Love (Perfect love)

I however see it as degrees of love. Like a scale strumming down from love:

Love>moving down to hate. Love----------------------------------.Hate

I put a period infront of hate because I believe hatred is point in time from which you have absolutly NO love. I see it like I see cold. You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than -273°C.

I think love works the same way.

TheSpinner

Originally posted by AOR
Alright, one step at a time:

...I put a period infront of hate because I believe hatred is point in time from which you have absolutly NO love. I see it like I see cold. You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than -273°C.

I think love works the same way.

COLD should not be compared to HEAT but rather to HOT. the more heat you add the less COLD it would be and the more HOT it would be and vice versa.

The -273 degree Celsius theory is relative and not absolute. Things can get colder but scientist needed to define an absolute Zero for temperatures based on certain observed criteria. They just happen to agree on calling that point " absolute Zero" so we have another scale to make a little sense of measuring temperature. It does not make it the absolute coldest state that can be reached.

Regret

Originally posted by TheSpinner
COLD should not be compared to HEAT but rather to HOT. the more heat you add the less COLD it would be and the more HOT it would be and vice versa.

The -273 degree Celsius theory is relative and not absolute. Things can get colder but scientist needed to define an absolute Zero for temperatures based on certain observed criteria. They just happen to agree on calling that point " absolute Zero" so we have another scale to make a little sense of measuring temperature. It does not make it the absolute coldest state that can be reached.

Temperature is a physical quantity which gives us an idea of how hot or cold an object is. The temperature of an object depends on how fast the atoms and molecules which make up the object can shake, or oscillate. As an object is cooled, the oscillations of its atoms and molecules slow down. For example, as water cools, the slowing oscillations of the molecules allow the water to freeze into ice. In all materials, a point is eventually reached at which all oscillations are the slowest they can possibly be. The temperature which corresponds to this point is called absolute zero. Note that the oscillations never come to a complete stop, even at absolute zero. ~http://www.pa.msu.edu/~sciencet/ask_st/012992.html

Unless you are stating that it is possible to slow these oscillations further, then it is the coldest temperature state that can be reached.

Alliance

Justy say 0K...its so much easier than -273 celcius.

TheSpinner

Originally posted by Regret
Temperature is a physical quantity which gives us an idea of how hot or cold an object is. The temperature of an object depends on how fast the atoms and molecules which make up the object can shake, or oscillate. As an object is cooled, the oscillations of its atoms and molecules slow down. For example, as water cools, the slowing oscillations of the molecules allow the water to freeze into ice. In all materials, a point is eventually reached at which all oscillations are the slowest they can possibly be. The temperature which corresponds to this point is called absolute zero. Note that the oscillations never come to a complete stop, even at absolute zero. ~http://www.pa.msu.edu/~sciencet/ask_st/012992.html

Unless you are stating that it is possible to slow these oscillations further, then it is the coldest temperature state that can be reached.

I am very conscientious of the definition above and that is the exact criteria I was referring to. I just avoid going into details unless it is called for. And it is still just an observation of the few matters have been observed so far. you can not demonstrate "TRUE" based on examples. Not all matters have been tested. It is still just an assumption. And the observed slowest state is just assumed also. It is limited by the resources used for the observation. wink

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by AOR
Alright, one step at a time:

So if love and hatred where to be scaled for example, this would be a correct view of forming it in your opinion:

Hate-----------------------------------------Love

If you say yes, than, imo, you view the forms of love and forms of hate as degrees from a middle of indifference. Like

Hate--Racism--Religious hate--etc...---indifference---Liking--Infatuated love--Empty love--etc...--Consumate Love (Perfect love)

I however see it as degrees of love. Like a scale strumming down from love:

Love>moving down to hate. Love----------------------------------.Hate

I put a period infront of hate because I believe hatred is point in time from which you have absolutly NO love. I see it like I see cold. You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than -273°C.

I think love works the same way.

Interesting. So alteast we agree that Highest Love and True Hate are on different ends of the spectrum.

I still disagree with your theory, however. Because you are implying that you can be intensively envious of someone you love, and that Obsession IS a type of Love. I understand that you beleive that as Love gets weaker and weaker and weaker, it eventually becomes hatred.

I disagree because you are totally disregarding indifference.. I do not beleive that a lack of love equals hate, or that a lack of hate equals love. This could easily be just indifference. But I do strongly feel that true love lacks hate, and that true hate lacks love.

You are arguing that Love can involved a bit of hatred, and still be love, and to me there is no such thing. ANGER is not Hatred. Limitted Resentment is not automatic Hatred. For true Hatred to exist, there has to be an absense of Love.

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Interesting. So alteast we agree that Highest Love and True Hate are on different ends of the spectrum.

I still disagree with your theory, however. Because you are implying that you can be intensively envious of someone you love, and that Obsession IS a type of Love. I understand that you beleive that as Love gets weaker and weaker and weaker, it eventually becomes hatred.

I disagree because you are totally disregarding indifference.. I do not beleive that a lack of love equals hate, or that a lack of hate equals love. This could easily be just indifference. But I do strongly feel that true love lacks hate, and that true hate lacks love.

Where does Indifference fit into your scale?

You are arguing that Love can involved a bit of hatred, and still be love, and to me there is no such thing. ANGER is not Hatred. Limitted Resentment is not automatic Hatred. For true Hatred to exist, there has to be an absense of Love.

AOR

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Interesting. So alteast we agree that Highest Love and True Hate are on different ends of the spectrum.

I still disagree with your theory, however. Because you are implying that you can be intensively envious of someone you love, and that Obsession IS a type of Love. I understand that you beleive that as Love gets weaker and weaker and weaker, it eventually becomes hatred.

I disagree because you are totally disregarding indifference.. I do not beleive that a lack of love equals hate, or that a lack of hate equals love. This could easily be just indifference. But I do strongly feel that true love lacks hate, and that true hate lacks love.

You are arguing that Love can involved a bit of hatred, and still be love, and to me there is no such thing. ANGER is not Hatred. Limitted Resentment is not automatic Hatred. For true Hatred to exist, there has to be an absense of Love.

But you see I count the being that loves, not just simply the circumstance. I believe hatred is theoretical, like cold. You can't hate someone one moment and love someone else in another. It defies the idea that hatred is the absence of love. Hence the cold example. -272°C still contains heat, as little as it may be...

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by AOR
But you see I count the being that loves, not just simply the circumstance. I believe hatred is theoretical, like cold. You can't hate someone one moment and love someone else in another. It defies the idea that hatred is the absence of love. Hence the cold example. -272°C still contains heat, as little as it may be...

1) I don't understand why or how you compare love and hate, to hot and cold. One is emotional/mental/psychological, while the other set is just physical.

2) I also do not beleive that you can love and hate the SAME person.

3) I never said Hatred is the Absense of Love. Hatred REQUIRES an Absense of love. The same way LOVE requires an absense of Hate. But this love or hate has to be in regard to the same person recieving it. Not the person who is feeling it. wink

4) So you're basically saying that the Winter is not cold roll eyes (sarcastic)

AOR

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) I don't understand why or how you compare love and hate, to hot and cold. One is emotional/mental/psychological, while the other set is just physical.

2) I also do not beleive that you can love and hate the SAME person.

3) I never said Hatred is the Absense of Love. Hatred REQUIRES an Absense of love. The same way LOVE requires an absense of Hate. But this love or hate has to be in regard to the same person recieving it. Not the person who is feeling it. wink

4) So you're basically saying that the Winter is not cold roll eyes (sarcastic)

The degrees are measures of temperature, not heat. HEAT is the high culmination of those temperaturate energies, while Cold is the lessening of those energies. Cold does exist, the same way Heat Exists.

Love and Hate are based on the principals of duality, you can not have one without the other. Because of this, you CAN'T have one and AND the other. The different variances of love are wide in ranging, because love comes from the person not the situation. To conclude in this, there must be the idea that one can not posses LOVE AND HATE. One shows less love to some than to others. That does not imply the presence of hate.

I use the heat/cold as an example. Winter, is too general. As winter is time of seasons not necessarily a range in temperatures. The Caribbean and north Atlantic both experience winters. It has nothing to do with the difference of temperatures. Only days on a calender. However the point I am getting is cold is defined as Because warmth can also by described as heat, it's the same as saying cold=no heat. Winter (even in Antarctica) still maintains warmth. Therefore it can not be scientifically correct to say it is cold during the winter season in Antarctica because there is still the presence of heat. However it has proved a convenience to say cold rather than "There is little heat in the winter seasons of Antarctica." Convenience does not mean it's correct.

The definition of temperature all regards the measurement of heat. Be it through kinetic motion in a molecule, or the actual feeling of warmth in an object/living being. However there is much symbolism in the use of heat/cold and love/hate. Love is usually described as a warmth towards a person. Where passion is most like a fire, empty love is like a fire dying out. As one grows in "lack of love", they begin to "loose heat". Like in my general theory of the transition of love to hate. The lack of love, just like the lack of heat, leads to hate. But hatred is not reached until the PERSON not the moment is in the complete absence of love. Until that POINT in time is reached that person can not HATE.

This is all, of course my opinion. It is well founded and supported scientifically, and will not be easily discouraged. Your argument lies simply in the definition of words, and very washy examples. Of course all this in my opinion. I am not criticising solely on the idea of criticism. I only wish to point out, that I will of course lean towards my ideas, only because you fail to explain yourself properly.

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by AOR
Love and Hate are based on the principals of duality, you can not have one without the other. Because of this, you CAN'T have one and AND the other. The different variances of love are wide in ranging, because love comes from the person not the situation. To conclude in this, there must be the idea that one can not posses LOVE AND HATE. One shows less love to some than to others. That does not imply the presence of hate.

Chaos and Order are based on Duality. They are opposites, yet need eachother to exist, the balance must be there.

However, Love and Hate do not need eachother to exist at all.

Here's my stance/beleif:

1) Every individual person is capable of loving someone and hating someone.

2) Every individual person is capable of having feelings of love and hate at the same time for different people.

3)No Individual person is capable of having both love and hate for the same person at the same time

4) You can love a person one time in your life, and hate that same person later on in life. But you cannot hate and love that same person at the same time.

Any further objecting opinions?

AOR

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Chaos and Order are based on Duality. They are opposites, yet need eachother to exist, the balance must be there.

However, Love and Hate do not need eachother to exist at all.

Here's my stance/beleif:

1) Every individual person is capable of loving someone and hating someone.

2) Every individual person is capable of having feelings of love and hate at the same time for different people.

3)No Individual person is capable of having both love and hate for the same person at the same time

4) You can love a person one time in your life, and hate that same person later on in life. But you cannot hate and love that same person at the same time.

Any further objecting opinions?

shrug Close enough, in both our beliefs. Extremes, impossibility, just different view points. Doesn't change the fact that we are both men of intelligence.

Religious men divide because of details. And their effects resound throughout society. Men should not be men of religion to make these same mistakes, but rather men of faith. Because men of faith don't focus on what the others doing wrong, but what the other's doing right. big grin

Random quote of wisdom.

goatstradamus

I see that my earlier idea of what "hate" meant in reference to the thread was off, so ill revise and say..

Hatred is just a reaction to a sensation that we don't like to feel within ourselves, such as anger.
It becomes "hate" when we blame that sensation on other people becuase we believe its their fualt.
There seems to be an infinite number of ways which people can be pissed off.... and an infinite number of things people blame it on. But what it comes down to is simple, blaming someone else for ones own problem, which of course makes the problem worse for yourself.

Whatever you want to call it, racism, self loathing, greed whatever, its still the same thing. The same victim mentality.... for example: my inability to accept my own feelings (feelings such as dissapointment, sadness, anger ect..) is your problem, not mine.

I don't think there is such a thing as "true hate"...
...just a very unhealthy state on non-understanding and constant reaction and blame. Hate is in essence a simple illusion that everyone falls for.

... there is a productive way to deal with anger and such feelings and a none productive way...hatred in whatever form is a non productive way... simple as that.

True love is much harder to define but involves true acceptance and understanding of oneself.

Love and hate are two different things, they are NOT an duality. Hate cannot be put in the same category as love. The absence of love does not = hate, there are many things you can be feeling.

AOR

Originally posted by goatstradamus
Love and hate are two different things, they are NOT an duality. Hate cannot be put in the same category as love. The absence of love does not = hate, there are many things you can be feeling.

laughing

The first line got me....

Duality (or dualism)- The term dualism has a number of uses in the history of thinking. In a given domain of knowledge, the idea involves the existence of two fundamental classes of things, or principles, often in opposition to each other. In theology, dualism can refer the belief that there are two basic opposing principles, such as good, and evil. In philosophy of mind, dualism refers to the views that mind and matter are two ontologically separate entities.

Love and hate are opposites of each other. Therefore they're identification is based on the premise of dualism. Go back and read the last two pages (three?) pages of my understanding of love and hate. Then come back and refute my points. Love is more than just "accepting and understanding oneself". Because there is so much to love, love is greatly ranging. Here I go, dancing the dance again...

debbiejo

Actually I think it's love and fear that are opposites..........

goatstradamus

Alright, for purposes of this thread, I think your right, its not possible to love and hate at the EXACT same moment..... unless your a crazy person...

But I still am not convinced that love and hate are a true oppisites... One reason is I don't think we have enough knowledge about what love actually is or isnt. Hate just seems so simple compared to it...and I guess thats a good reason for why they are oppisites, that is, one is simple and one complex....but still, it just does not sit right.... o well..

AOR

Originally posted by debbiejo
Actually I think it's love and fear that are opposites..........

The opposite of fear is courage (or bravery; whatever rocks your boat)

Originally posted by goatstradamus
Alright, for purposes of this thread, I think your right, its not possible to love and hate at the EXACT same moment..... unless your a crazy person...

But I still am not convinced that love and hate are a true oppisites... One reason is I don't think we have enough knowledge about what love actually is or isnt. Hate just seems so simple compared to it...and I guess thats a good reason for why they are oppisites, that is, one is simple and one complex....but still, it just does not sit right.... o well..

Your right to speculate. However I would consider it a safe conclusion to consider that love and hate are infact opposites...

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by AOR
The opposite of fear is courage (or bravery; whatever rocks your boat)

Your right to speculate. However I would consider it a safe conclusion to consider that love and hate are infact opposites...

I agree here. I do not think they can exist at the same time, in the same person, towards the same person.

however, I disagree with your Fear vs Courage deal. Courage is not the opposite of Fear, Courage is when you FACE your fear...

The FEAR HAS to exist for courage to come into play. The opposite of fear, is simply no fear (like indifference)

That's like saying "stupidity is the opposite of intelligence"...no ignorance is the opposite of intelligence. You can be very smart, and do stupid things...stupidity is going against your own intelligence, it's when you ignore your intelligent judgements and do something completely out of your own logic.

Intelligence is the gathering and accessing of knowledge, all knowledge possible. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge, or the lack of desire to learn the knowledge....stupidity is when you have the knowledge already, but choose to go against it anyway.

Get it ?

debbiejo

Originally posted by AOR
The opposite of fear is courage (or bravery; whatever rocks your boat)

Your right to speculate. However I would consider it a safe conclusion to consider that love and hate are infact opposites... Well if you think about it....Hate can come out of fear. Fear of not fitting in, of others, fear of being taken over/replaced (jealousy) ...etc....It seems people tend to hate things because on some level they fear them......

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well if you think about it....Hate can come out of fear. Fear of not fitting in, of others, fear of being taken over/replaced (jealousy) ...etc....It seems people tend to hate things because on some level they fear them......

Not all hate comes from fear. Hate also comes out of disgust (for example, if you don't like the way someone looks and hate them for that)

Hate also comes out of Anger (revenge for example)

Hate is also taught (traditional homophobia or racism)

goatstradamus

Check this:

The author Eckhart Tolle suggests that it is impossible to have a love/hate relationship when referring to true love... becuase true love cannot possibly turn into hate. True love has no oppisite becuase it is not an emotion. True love comes directly from "being".. that is, being in the present.

And..... what makes up what we falsely call a love/hate relationship is simply craving and reaction.

Woot!

Because I can

if theres love, will there be hate?

AOR

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I agree here. I do not think they can exist at the same time, in the same person, towards the same person.

however, I disagree with your Fear vs Courage deal. Courage is not the opposite of Fear, Courage is when you FACE your fear...

The FEAR HAS to exist for courage to come into play. The opposite of fear, is simply no fear (like indifference)

That's like saying "stupidity is the opposite of intelligence"...no ignorance is the opposite of intelligence. You can be very smart, and do stupid things...stupidity is going against your own intelligence, it's when you ignore your intelligent judgements and do something completely out of your own logic.

Intelligence is the gathering and accessing of knowledge, all knowledge possible. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge, or the lack of desire to learn the knowledge....stupidity is when you have the knowledge already, but choose to go against it anyway.

Get it ?

Agreed completely big grin

debbiejo

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Not all hate comes from fear. Hate also comes out of disgust (for example, if you don't like the way someone looks and hate them for that)

Hate also comes out of Anger (revenge for example)

Hate is also taught (traditional homophobia or racism) Oh, disgust of what?........being different?.........and different effects you why?.........Comes down to "they are NOT like you".........sooooooo they are indifferent, not feeling, disgusting, not trustful, apprehensive, secluded, ...........IMO hate comes from fear of "not being excepted" in some part............... When you STOP worrying about being different........you get GREAT FREEDOM.................god, who wants to be all the same anyway............Isn't that like high school???

Lord Urizen

Originally posted by debbiejo
Oh, disgust of what?........being different?.........and different effects you why?.........Comes down to "they are NOT like you".........sooooooo they are indifferent, not feeling, disgusting, not trustful, apprehensive, secluded, ...........IMO hate comes from fear of "not being excepted" in some part............... When you STOP worrying about being different........you get GREAT FREEDOM.................god, who wants to be all the same anyway............Isn't that like high school???

Are you arguing against me, cuz i cant tell ?

You are completely misunderstanding my point. You said HATE comes from fear. that's only partially true.

I love diversity, I am all for variety, i duno who you are arguing against here..and you need to relax. yes

SERIOUSLY.......

DISGUST- 1) a bias reaction to something you do not recognize as "normal", "beautiful",etc.....2) Thinking something is ugly or sickening.

Disgust is definately a cause of Hate. Disgust is not voluntary...its definately negative, but it's not a voluntary thing. People get disgusted without actually knowing why they feel that way. Hate can develop from disgust, and does very often.

You think homophobes Hate gay people simply for religious reasons? Religionous TEACHING only PROMOTES HATE...it doesn't create it.

You think there's an ACTUAL FEAR of homophobes? There is only a FEAR of turning gay......

True homophobes hate gays simply because they think gays are disgusting....they will hardly ever admit that, but that's what it comes down to.

Other motivations for Hate are Anger, often religious/influential teaching.

Again, incase you didn't get it...i am NOT justifying Hate...i am telling you WHY HATE is caused.